Podcastaversary Year 1 - Friendship, Frameworks, and The Future of Product

Speaker A: Welcome to the anniversary edition of Practical Product Management.

Speaker B: Yay.

Speaker A: We made it a year. Um, this podcast is all about how product management is done in context. Books are nice, theory is lovely, but let's get real. What's actually. What can you actually do with product management? So we've been talking about this now for a year. Marilyn.

Speaker B: That's crazy.

Speaker A: This little. This little silly idea we had one day has turned into a year of podcasts. I think we've done 30. How many episodes have we done? We did 22 episodes in season one, and we've done 10 episodes so far. So we've done. This is our 33rd episode, so that's cool. Um, and we've been kind of all over the. All over the map on things we've talked about. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. But I think we've stuck to the theme. Um, we've stuck to the theme. And I, you know, I remember. It's actually one of. One of my fondest memories. Um, I remember sitting in that pub and having this conversation. And, uh, the conversation that led up to this, right, where, like, you know, we work with all these companies and someone. Someone orders a book and they read the book, or they had a framework in their last company and they come to a new company and they're like, that, this is the only way things are going to work. And if you just. If you just do 1, 2, and 3, magic things will happen. Um, and. And they're either, like, try to force it through or, you know, you get some stuff done and it's really hard and you don't get the outcomes you want. Um, and we were just like, well, duh. Right, that's because there is no cookie cutter. That's right. Um, and so, you know, that. That sort of, like, frustration that we had that led to the, like, we should just do a podcast.

Speaker A: Podcast.

Speaker B: We should just totally do a podcast. Exactly. Right. Um, yeah. What a cool journey. What a cool, Almost like a kismet moment. Um, and it has led to a year of what I think are really good conversations. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. No, I agree. I think about, you know, I think for us, there's always Having worked together twice and then been friends all these years, there's always been like this, we should do something fun together. We should do something together. What should we do? Um, and rather than being like, ah, we need to go found a company or we need to find somewhere to work again together, because our lives have gone in kind of different directions in terms of where we live and what we do and all of that. This is a way that we get to sort of spend time together, talk about things we love, and also, like, hang out. Right. So that's been, that's been a lot of fun. And I think, listen, I think there. It's no small feat for women to make it this long doing what we do.

Speaker B: That, my friend, is 100. True.

Speaker A: I mean, so many women bail out by 35.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Past 35. Like a long time ago.

Speaker A: Me too. But I mean, I was. It might have been past 35 when we met. But, but, but I, uh. The reason I say that is like the, the, the statistics say that in tech, women bail out kind of mid career in their 30s, they go do something else. They figure out how to go do something else, like change careers, change direction, change focus. Because it's hard. It's hard to. Staying power is hard. And it's not like it gets easier the further up the ladder you go. Right. Uh, it gets lonelier. Right. And I think one of the ways that we have quelled the loneliness over the years as we've grown our careers, is by having each other.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Even though we weren't necessarily together every day, I knew I could be like, I'm having a moment. Right. And we could talk about it. Um, and so I think that there's. There even just the act of you and I at the stage we're in, having a conversation about something we have loved so much that we have served and has served us.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's a testimony to. To this industry, to the industry, to the job, to what we do. Right. Uh, into friendship, quite frankly, a hundred percent.

Speaker B: I also think that that, like, that thread that you just pulled through this about supporting each other, that that is. I, um, mean, that is something that you and I have both done in different ways in every company we've worked for.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is how do you create those circles of friendship? Because honestly, they're what gets you through.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For sure. Um, and without expectation. Right. So, I mean, if you're a listener to this podcast at all, which I still believe, no one listens. So, um, I don't have to worry about what I'm saying because no one's listening, you'll know that we're not selling anything I don't like. I may jokingly be like, click, mash. It was like mash, click and. Or like, and subscribe or whatever. I don't know, whatever the cool people say, we don't care. Uh, I don't want you to buy anything. I don't Have a thing that you need to sort of, like, you know, tattoo on your arm. Like, we're here to have a conversation and to support each other and to talk to real people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, about real problems or real solutions that someone, anybody, all of you can just pick up and either use or come back and have a conversation with us about. There is. There is no. There is no annual subscription for this.

Speaker A: This is not. There's not an agenda. Like, you listen to us and you will turn into this kind of person. And by the way, you owe us 19.95amonth. Right.

Speaker B: Like, it's like.

Speaker A: No, there's not that. That isn't. That isn't what we've done. Um, you know, I probably, uh. The podcast itself probably gets two messages a week of people trying to get us to. To really push the, um, the performance forward and, like, make money on this podcast.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And everything in me every time is like, nah. Because, I mean, if we made money on it, fine. But if it requires me to do anything other than talk to you, no, thanks.

Speaker B: It always freaks me out just a little bit. Like, you know, we can guarantee you leads, and it's like, leads for what?

Speaker A: Yeah. Where the leads were. Right. What are you bringing us? Have you listened to what we do? Right. I mean, I would also, um. I would say, in my opinion, the toughest. Over the 33 episodes, the toughest conversations we've had have been when someone is here trying to sell something.

Speaker B: Yeah, agree, agree. Because there's so. We're so casual in how we approach this. This is a real conversation between people. Time in the trenches, by the way. Like, none of this is theoretical.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, we have. We have been in product leadership roles in various companies for years, and we can talk to you about the nuances. Uh, and I think that's actually part of the genuine value here is like, um. But if someone comes in with an agenda, like, you know, I. I, um, really want someone to either, like, buy my thing or click on my thing or think I'm important. That it does become really stilted.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's this awkwardness that we're both like. It's like, um, I don't have any more questions because you've pitched your idea, and I feel like we're done. Right.

Speaker B: This episode's gonna wrap up in 23 minutes.

Speaker A: How fast can we hit the stop button?

Speaker B: Right, so it's lightning round.

Speaker A: Yeah. If I say time for lightning round before the 30 minute mark, you should be, uh, questioning yourself. Right. Because it doesn't happen Very often. Because usually even when someone is someone we don't know very well, we. They show up. Um, we explain that this is casual, we get started, and then the conversation goes where it goes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And if any of you haven't figured out, we don't have a plan when we started it started episode, we usually have like a, uh, this is what we'll probably talk about with this person. And that's about it. Right. And so if you have an agenda, and you're going to run your agenda the whole time, it's going to be obvious.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because one of us is going to get the giggles and take the whole thing sideways and you're. You don't want to go there. You want to get back to your three talking points.

Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. So, yeah. So if you want to be on our podcast and you want to come with an agenda, just know that we're going to get bored at about minute 20.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the minute we're bored, it's kind of over.

Speaker B: You're going to get the Lightning Round questions really early.

Speaker A: So part of the reason Lightning Round was put in place in season two was to avoid exactly this from happening. Are we gonna just. I killed Lightning Round as a. As a way to get us to the end. If we were struggling, we were struggling.

Speaker B: It's my favorite part. And I've heard, because I don't. I also don't watch our podcast, that we have real lightning now, too.

Speaker A: Yes, we actually had real lightning in our Lightning round, which was great.

Speaker B: All right, so what are your favorite conversations? Looking back 30 some odd episodes. That's madness.

Speaker A: Super fun to think about. I mean, obviously our last episode was with Gino, so that was fun. Or not. Not with Steve. With Steve. And then before that, Gino. And those were both fun. And, you know, talking to Gino. We, like, talked about talking to Gino for. For a year and then finally did it. So that was fun. Um, but I think about, like, all the way back at the beginning, Dana was like, sure, I'll be on your podcast while I'm on parental leave.

Speaker B: Yes, I just had a baby, and

Speaker A: I'll have a baby, but I'll come on your podcast. And. And I just think, like, that conversation was super fun, you know, because we got to sort of pick her brain about how she views the world, uh, and what kinds of organizations she's built. So I think that was really fun. Um, yeah, I think we've had. We've had some really. I'm like, glancing through people. We've talked to, um, I think we've had, you know, I think Dana was, Was a soup. Was super, super fun. I think, you know, we had, we had some conversations where we were like, we don't agree. Like, Haresh came on and talked about growth and we were like, yeah, maybe

Speaker B: like, well, at the end of it, I was like, I want your job. So.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Thanks for that. Now I want your job. Uh, although funny, like, let's go back to growth for just a minute because we like this. So, um, this subject is one that I keep coming back to because my friends, um, and I think, I think there's a. There's a lot of recency in this for both of us. You cannot disconnect growth from product management.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Um, and I saw this at a place that I worked in the past, and you've seen it in places you've worked in the past. Um, when you think that growth and. Or marketing. Let's just call it marketing for a second. Right? Um, is just about getting someone from the universe to the first step in your funnel. Um, you're a. Sorry, you're just a dummy because you can get anybody to click on anything and it can be a trash input to your funnel. Um, sorry, I'm just gonna, like, hop on my soapbox for just a minute.

Speaker A: No, I love it. Do it.

Speaker B: What the holy hell, right? Like, if your growth team isn't managing their impact all the way down to purchase, like, fire that team. They're old school, they're dummies. They don't know what they're doing. Now, now, I hope nobody's listening to this podcast.

Speaker A: Hi, all the growth people we know

Speaker B: marketing tech should be about driving business outcomes. Driving business outcomes. And I've seen far too many marketing teams just, like, spin up landing pages and, like, put out Google Ads and like, do all this shit, but they can't tie it back to company performance. And if you cannot do that, how do you know that the money you're spending on marketing is effective?

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Um, and I've had the like, no, but it's TV and like that, like Nielsen will tell us. And it's like, that's not fucking good enough anymore. Yeah, sorry.

Speaker A: And I think there's so much of it that is then tied to what investors think, how the board is functioning, how are we. How are we actually managing whether the business is doing well? And I'm like, yeah. I think we also have to ask investors, VCs, private equity firms, angels, board members to think at a higher level as well.

Speaker B: Educate yourself Right. If you're going to spend $150 million on marketing for a three month period of time, that money better be effective and you should be able to track every campaign to some sort of action.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That impacts business outcome.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And if you cannot, you're trapped in like old school, like dummy stuff anyways. If you've got, if you're listening to this and you realize that I've got an opinion. Um, welcome to the club. Um, if you want more information, contact Leah.

Speaker A: I'll be like, I don't know what she meant. Apologies for everything she said.

Speaker B: Absolutely not. Uh, let's, let's have you on to talk about how you have these things together. I mean, there are some companies that are doing some really remarkable things around. How do you, like, instead of, how do you create campaigns to try to drive people down the funnel? How do you find the people that are most likely to get the right outcome from using your shit and target them directly? Like flip, flip the equation. Maybe that's. We should do an episode on that, Leah.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. I wonder, you know, I think there's. I have an idea of who we could. Some people we could invite for sure. I think, I think one of the things that I, as you said that I always am interested in places where we stay old school, where we as individuals know that there's a whole other universe happening. So we have this. So marketing being an example, we're behaving in one way in our funnels. Right. And in our conversion, you know, top of funnel, whatever. I'm, um, curious what Haresh would think about this, but then I imagine like you and I are having a conversation and later I will get ads about exactly the stuff we're talking about, even though I haven't. Right. So the world is listening to me and knows my intention. Yeah. And yet we still are like, let's just pitch all of our money at, uh, a random group of people and hope for the best. And I'm like, accept that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Everybody else in the world is moving on except for the, you know, the people that aren't very smart or so sorry. And like, sorry, agencies. What? We may get a lot of people requesting to be on the podcast after this. If you just give a whole ton of money to an agency, they're gonna, they're gonna sell you the inventory they own.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And not all of it's good inventory.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because who else is going to buy some of their shitty inventory? They gotta sell some of it to everybody. Right. Like, I, I really think that, you know, not all agencies act in the best manner. Not all agencies are spending your money appropriately. I think that there's, I think there, to your point, there are companies doing this very well, right? This hyper targeting, understanding how to change behavior, understanding how to make money from getting you to click, finding the right people and getting them to do the thing. And then everybody else, uh, goes to these, they go to these stupid conferences and they're like, let's talk about last click attribution or first click attribution. And it's like, you're tired, you're so far behind. We should have harassed back on. That was a good conversation.

Speaker A: We should. I also think so. When I went to work at Tour Lane, um, the chief, one of the co founders was also the chief growth officer. And I promise you, after about, I don't know, a year working together, he was like, I mean, I think eventually marketing just becomes product management. And I was all, welcome, welcome. And he was like, yeah, I'm realizing more and more that we don't get. Marketing doesn't actually get to do anything dynamically on our own without product management anyway. So what do you know? I was like, yeah, you know, so

Speaker B: when they're too separate, what you end up with is a bunch of stupid fucking landing pages that don't convert. Yeah, yeah, you get people doing campaigns and concepts and then I need a landing page. Like none of that really sort of ties to anything. Yeah, it's such a waste of effort. Like build some really good technology platforms that help you move people, people from the universe that you, that, you know, you don't even have to think anymore. That, you know, have the right intent and get them to the place where they need to get the, like, where they need to get the information to click by, like, duh.

Speaker A: Yeah, Well, I mean, there was an article last week that the, the, the headline of the article was like, SEO is dead. Huh?

Speaker B: Huh?

Speaker A: And I was like, maybe it is. Right.

Speaker B: Because think about this. Like, okay, but like, we didn't, guys, we didn't plan to have this conversation. If you think about how the world is becoming more and more identified, right? So like you can type something into an LLM and it can go and do stuff for you. Your interface is no longer a website. You may, for now try to land someone on a website, but later you're just going to want them to buy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if you're not thinking about how that gets structured from a tech perspective now, like, how is your data structured? How do your systems work? How does your website pull that information? But also other agents or APIs can pull that information in a different way.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You're just going to be scraping your stupid website. I mean, it's. Again, it's probably fine for this year and it's probably fine for m next year. It's not very hyper efficient.

Speaker A: But we're gonna start. I mean, I think we're talking and like, I think in the three year and beyond, Mark, you're gonna be a dinosaur if you're not thinking about solving this problem now. Yeah, right. You might already. And the truth is, some days I wake up and think, oh, we're already behind and it's too late. Right. So I mean, sometimes the oh is really big in my head around some of the people that I work, not some of the companies I work with, not anyone in particular, but some of the companies I, I work with. I'm already like, oh, uh, you might be too far behind. Right. Like, what are we going to do now? You need to leapfrog, not inch your way towards that thing. You've got to be like, oh, here we are, boom. And you got to get over the.

Speaker B: The disruptors are still going to keep coming, right. And you don't want to be the blockbuster to the Netflix disruptor. And I think the cycle for innovation is going to continue to tighten and so your ability to go from product market fit to not product market fit is going to happen quick, quicker and quicker and quicker. Um, so how do you like, as a company, stay relevant? So I would love to have this conversation with anybody in the universe that's actually built something. Let me just, I'm gonna lean into the microphone here. If you have actually done something and you're not just theoretical, like I don't want someone that's got a podcast, um, or, or write a newsletter about AI. Like, if you have built something that does something unique like call us, let's have this conversation. I think there's too many people in the universe right now that are like experts but haven't done anything.

Speaker A: Right. No, I agree, I agree. Okay, what was, what was your favorite topic?

Speaker B: Okay, so, um, there's been a few, right. I think that, um, there's been a couple of times that we've brought in this notion of oval and talked about with different people how this, uh, how this network of like really supporting each other and having people's backs and um, you know, building that network of people that, that you can contact regardless of what you're going through and Talk about things like money or contracts or where you're struggling. Um, for me, any episode that touches on that really gets to the core of kind of who you and I both are.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I hope that if I leave anything in this life, I'm not planning on leaving soon, by the way, but, uh, I hope if there's a ripple of, like, kindness that gets out and mutual support, um, then. Then I will be proud of the legacy that. That I've personally left.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, 100. I agree with that. I think there's such a. Um. There's. There's a lot of jerks in the world. We know that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And a lot of rich jerks and a lot of jerks with ideas. Right. And if we can be kind, smart, and get some shit done, I feel like that's. That's what I was here to do. Yeah, right. That. That. But if I leave any of those on the table, like, if I'm like, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be dumb and not do the right things, or I'm not gonna get anything done, or I'm just gonna be unkind, then for me, like, oh, that's not worth it anymore. Like, I've done too much of. There's been too much over. If I look backwards over my career, there have been too many moments when I have abandoned myself and what I care about in order to solve the problem for whoever, the CEO, my boss, the customer, whoever. And I abandoned my own values, my own self. And sometimes that meant that I abandoned the people around me and didn't show up in the ways that were the kindest or the most supportive or the most, uh, like, networked. You know, like, in terms of we're connected, and I just no longer want to do that.

Speaker B: No, no, I agree with you. I think that companies expect it out of you when you become a leader, especially, you know, um, when you have to give hard messages. Um, but I've. I have found that, um, when you care. When someone cares about me, I'm far more able to accept a hard message. Um, if someone doesn't care and they just are being a dick, then it. It just makes me defensive. Um, and. And not every situation is right for every person. And, you know, I understood that a company's not a family, and you got to do the right thing for the business, but if you can at least have the conversation in a way that, like, your mom would be proud of you.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like, that's my kid. She's nice, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, she's got a tough job and sometimes she's an. But she does it, does it to the best of her ability. She's the biggest jerk. Yeah. Without being a total monster.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Um, I think that's a good point. The other conversation, like, just think about. Let's go back to what you said about, like, kind and get stuff done. Getting stuff done. Like any conversation we've had about, like, actually driving business value. Because I think that the one thing that, like, really chaps both of our hides is wasting engineering resource on a feature factory that doesn't actually change. Move the needle.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So how do you know you're building something that customers want, that drives business results? Like, those conversations make me happy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because building, uh, software is expensive.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's funny. It's. It's interesting you say that. I think over the years, I think certainly now, I think I'm getting less patient with the time it takes us to get to something. I'm less patient when we don't experiment. I'm less patient with. Even though I know that there is a tendency to say we like to experiment and to say we like discovery and to say we do user research and then not do it. I think the longer I do this, the more I'm like, I know that the right thing to do is to have a goal in mind and then go experiment and test and figure out what will move the needle for the people you're serving. The closer I think the closer I get to the end of my career and being done in product management, the more I'm like, there's no time. Run more tests. Let's find out.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Right. Because I also think, and I'm curious what you would say about this. I think I know, but I also think that is where the fun and the energy is in a team.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And if we're not having fun doing this shit, let's stop.

Speaker B: Exactly. I think there's such freedom in just being like, this is what we think we need to do, but we don't know.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's try.

Speaker B: Let's go figure it out. And you know me, I'm like, I like, I'm a huge behavior design advocate. A lot of times my, you know, for, for, you know, some of the things that my product team brings to me, I'll be like, how can you. How can you get a signal in two days or less?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, you don't get to build a product you don't like, but you need to get a signal from real customers. Everybody inside the building with a badge doesn't. They don't count. How are you going to get a signal in two days or less? And some of those learnings have been incredibly insightful and we just. I, again, I think it's this thing where, like, people read, like, you know, Lean ux, I'm looking at m. My bookcase, by the way. Um, they read Lean UX or some of these things and they're like, oh, well, we need to do user research and we need to experiment, but they don't know how.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so they either don't really do it, they hire one user researcher, but then they're like, they're doing stuff as the product's launching, which is useless, as we all know. Um, or you do an A B test. Uh, and this, like, I must have a lot of, like, soapboxes to hop on today.

Speaker A: Wow. Good thing we have a podcast so you can get on your soapbox.

Speaker B: I'm like, fresh off vacation and full of opinions. I personally think if you. You're doing an A B test, you already know the answer and it's useless. M. I think if you're not running 3, 4, 5 variations, you haven't pushed yourself far enough and you're. You're actually not getting to the place where it's actually a true test. You're just like, should it be blue or green? And you know, at the end of the day, it might make a fraction of a percent, but it's not. You're not actually testing anything.

Speaker A: Right. Right. It's so funny you say that because lately, I mean, we're having conversations in the company I'm working with where I'm literally like, in the board going, the thing is, guys, we're gonna build some tests that fail, so I need you to be prepared. Right. And they're like, what does that mean? And I'm all, they're gonna fail. And you're gonna be like, we wasted so much time. And I'm gonna be like, not really. We learned a thing and now we're gonna go do another thing. Right. And that is such hard muscle to. To train if it's not in companies when they start the company.

Speaker B: Yep, yep. And that's how you turn into a feature factory. Right? Like, if it's. If you don't have. If you don't have. If you don't know what it looks like when it's going to fail and you haven't already figured out how you're going to measure it and you don't already know when you're going to turn it off, then you're just launching the next feature.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And man, can I just tell you, nothing taps my hide like being asked for a 12 month roadmap.

Speaker B: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: I've just realized I also have a few little spots that are like, man, put your finger in there and watch my face light up.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That is one of those places where if you poke me and say, you must give me a 9 to 12 month roadmap, prepare for the death stare because it is a fucking waste of my time.

Speaker B: Yeah. You can have a strategy for the next 12 months.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Is not a feature roadmap.

Speaker A: No. I recently put one together that the roadmap looked like. This team will be running some user research, doing some testing, making some iterations and building some shit and they'll be in various stages of that every quarter. And it was like, that's not detailed

Speaker B: enough chasing after this outcome. Right. We're gonna, we're gonna spend, we're gonna spend the cost of this team and the platforms they're running to chase this business outcome because wherever they're doing right now could be better.

Speaker A: Uh, and the truth is like, uh, so I wonder what you would say about this after all these years. The only time that I have really needed a roadmap was when there was hardware involved.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's it.

Speaker A: The only time a roadmap made a damn difference was when you needed to produce a physical good to make your thing happen.

Speaker B: Yep. The only other time, and I, I think this comes back to like agile isn't everything. Some teams she was on waterfall and it's okay. And that's not a bad thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So let's talk about what it means to be in a network. Um, and your customers are big banks and those customers can't consume your changes. You get to release quarterly three months in advance. You need to be able to publish the specs like uh, there that there are teams that should be running waterfall and they should have an idea of what they're going to build in the future because their customers need that predictability. Now there's also a whole new generation of customers that do not need that predictability. And so that puts the networks in this sort of space where they have to be able to accommodate both.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, but yeah, like a 12 month roadmap I just think is fiction. It's a work of fiction.

Speaker A: Well, that's what I said. So the lot when I was asked for one recently, I said so you want me to make it Up. It was like, what? And I was like, so you want me to make up? Because, I mean, I can, I can make some up and put it up on there. Ultimately it was sort of like, yes, uh, please do that. I'm like, okay. Right.

Speaker B: And I was like holding to it. Right.

Speaker A: And that's what I said. The minute I make up and put it on there, then you guys are going to hold me to it and I'm going to be like, I didn't know. I didn't know better. Right.

Speaker B: I reserve the right to like cross something out and put, uh, like we learned X. And so these things now this is

Speaker A: on and this is here. Like, that's. But I was like, but that was my exact reaction. So you want me to make up? Yeah, okay, I can. Like that. I'm an excellent fiction writer when it comes to this. Because that's all it is, right? Like it's roadmap fiction. Sure, I'll make something up.

Speaker B: But again, like, when you do that, I think that you take the strategy out of the team.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because now you've said like, our business strategy for the next year is set in stone. Not we already know our customers and we already know where they're going to be in 12 months and we already know the product. The one product that's going to give us product market fit. Nothing's going to shift in the future.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and you. Don't you take away the ability for your product and engineering teams to listen to your customer understand the high level strategy. Like, we want to be in this market, we want to serve these types of customers, um, and look for those opportunities to really leap forward and drive product market fit. You've taken all of that away.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100.

Speaker B: Which is crazy town.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Crazy town. All right. What other. What, uh, what other were your. Were your favorite episodes? I'm scrolling through our little site right now.

Speaker A: What I mean, I loved, I really loved our conversation with Jill and the work she's doing in sort of the femtech space and how she thinks about, you know, that, you know, the startup land for, for a couple young women thinking about how to, you know, found a company that is based on good tech, good product, but also on a problem that needs solving, which is in the, the women's healthcare space. And I love just those kinds of conversations where we get to talk to people who, like, who have some sort of cool idea and we're like, yes, do more of that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, well, and I think the title of that episode you called it the courage to create. Um, um, honestly, like, we should be celebrating people that do have that bravery. And I, I do think that some of the problems that will get solved in the world are going to be by the people that are closest to the problem. And so, you know, I don't, um, like to support your local founder. Uh, you know, go, go help where you can, uh, solve the problems. If you're facing a problem, like, you're the, you're the, you're the closest one to the problem. You solve it. Stop waiting for someone else to solve it. Exactly.

Speaker A: I think we've had some really cool sort of young innovators on the, on the podcast, like, like Jill, like Rob, who's in the kind of govtech space, folks who are thinking about those kinds of things. And then I think we've had some, like, folks who have been in it for a while who also still are trying to, you know, are thinking fresh thoughts, like Mike Paciella and like, Pete Peter coming on. Like, we've had some really interesting folks who are in different stages. And I think that's the thing about product management. Like I said before, I mean, the longer I'm in it, the more I'm like, let's do it faster, let's do it better, let's do it more innovative. Let's do. It's not something where I've gotten stodgy, and I think there might have been a period where I got a little stuck, but it was a period, a brief moment, and then it was like, no, I want to keep doing what I love to do. I just want to do it at this level. Yeah, right.

Speaker B: I don't know if I've ever noticed you stuck. To be clear, you're. You are one of the fastest thinking people. Um, you are one of the hardest driving people. You're one of the hardest working people I've ever met in my life. And if you were even remotely stuck, you'd still be running 500 miles an hour faster than most of us.

Speaker A: Thank you. Well, you know, you say that, but I have always said the only person I know who can outwork me is you. I know if I'm like, she's lapping me. It's. The only person who's ever laughed to me is Marilyn. I'm like, hold on, wait for me. I'm coming behind you.

Speaker B: No. Isn't that the fun, uh, the funnest part of this, though, is, um, I always feel like you bring me fresh ideas, and I think that's the Other part of this podcast that's been really, really helpful for me. Part, part of the joy of this podcast is being able to pull someone on and have a good debate. Yeah, like, yeah, it's, uh, I, I love a good debate. Like, yeah, ah, for sure. Let's have, let's have a debate on something.

Speaker A: Because, because there have been moments where we've had conversations on the podcast. I mean, when we talked to Mike about accessibility and suddenly I was like, like my, I was like, wait, I have stopped thinking about this the way I need to be thinking about it. And it's like, brought me back to center and I've been like, hold on, go back to what you know how to do. Right? Like, think about this, you know, and having, like, there's just been those moments where someone has said something and I've been like, oh, yeah, I think I've been not doing that. That's good to be reminded.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, we've recently had a conversation with Brad Jefferson. Uh, and I had not been even thinking about. I mean, you know, you think about immersive products to some degree. They're really present in games. Um, but I think that that will start to shift again when the primary way of communicating isn't the web anymore.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And how do you tap into people wherever they are, through whatever medium they're looking at? Um, and that, for me, that was my like, mind blow moment. I'm like, uh, like, oh my God. Like, there's a couple things I really want to work on in the future. The first is how do we think about immersive product management a little bit, little bit more thoroughly. Right. So how can I, how can I help a team or help a product team that's really sort of stuck on the web and really open up their eyes to where they find people and how they interact with them? And the second is, uh, around how do we start using, um, technology? I don't want to say gen AI or AI because I think all those things are stupid buzzwords. But how do we start using modern technology, uh, to really interact with people that lowers human cost on the parts of the jobs that suck. Right? Like knowledge management and answering the phone and like, how do I make someone feel like they're having a human interaction without, like, hiring 500 people in Malaysia? Not that I hate Malaysia, but like, you know.

Speaker A: Right. But how do you, how do you think about these things?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Well, and I think for me it's been really helpful because, you know, I, as. As you Know, and some of the folks who listen probably know I sort of stepped out of product and went into coaching and did that for about two years before I stepped back into a product role. With really at the time when I stepped out of it, I was sort of like, yeah, I'm done, I'm out, I'm going to go do something else. And I'm not going back into this, but I still love it. And so. So it was fun for me to get sort of talk about these things I love and stay current and do that. And then I found myself back in a product role. Right. Um, um. And the truth is, all along, even when I'm coaching, I coach tech people. I mostly coach engineers, product managers, designers and marketing people and founders. Like, that's who I coach. And so I always still needed to be, uh, really aware of what was going on. But what's been really interesting to me is when, when I sort of stepped out, there was this kind of moment where I was like, well, I'm going to miss what's going on in AI, except from an outsider's perspective who's just very viewing it, uh, because I'm not in it. Um, and. And then I step back into it and realize that I think what I would say for product people. So curious what you think about this is, uh, uh, what we know how to do is think about problems.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So if you wake up tomorrow and you're like, yeah, I don't know enough about AI, so probably I'm not going to be relevant. Well, go learn something.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, it's not like, am I an AI expert? Nope. Right. But do I know enough that I know how to go find out? Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. I remember. And I think we've. I said this to you before. I remember early in my product management career thinking, oh, I could never be a product manager for like dog food because I don't know anything about manufacturing or I don't know anything about this or that. And then because I've been in payments almost all my whole career, and then as I stepped into other industries going, oh, wait a minute, what I actually know how to do is think about problems.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I have frameworks for how I learn. I have frameworks for how in my mind. And not like, uh, this is my exact framework, but I know how to go learn something. I know how to ask questions, I know how to piece together ideas, and I know how to say, hey, we need a strategy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And the same thing is true when the technology starts to feel like it's getting away from you. Like, yeah, go use your frameworks for learning. To go learn.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I would. I think there's a. It's funny. So two things, um, wholeheartedly agree with you about, um, the, you know, it doesn't always have to just be, uh, like software. Um, and in fact, I was really lucky in my last role to have some, like to be able to look at a manufacturing supply chain.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and be able to understand some of the things and how they interacted with the commercial systems. And it's just frameworks and systems. Like, if the systemic thinking doesn't change. Right. Like, in order for this outcome to happen, here are the things that need to happen. And can we make that shorter and can we make it simpler? Doesn't matter if someone's picking up a box.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, or if it's a packet. Software packet going from A to B. It's like, it's just. It's the same diagram you're drawing. Yeah. The, um, controls are a little different. Um, but. But it's still the same problem. Um, I do think that AI in particular, there's just so much hype around it. And I like, this reminds me of. Do you remember a million years ago. And you're going to laugh. Do you remember when HTML5 was the whole thing and you could build an app wrapper and then your app would be an HTML5 and it was like the rage and everybody was like, this is the thing and it's going to be right, no more apps. And like, everything changes. We don't need any more iOS or Android developers except for like one, because they're only going to build the shell.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and it, it kind of didn't really become that. Now, don't get me wrong, I think that. I think generative AI, machine learning and AI has been around for a really long time.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker B: Um, I do think that Genai and these sort of systems that are able to do more interesting things at lower cost to us right now because they're not charging for what it cost them. Someday the bill's gonna come due. Um, it's just like such a hot topic because there are. And everybody feels this need to be an expert and then like go speak on panels. The amount of people that I see speak on panels that haven't actually built anything.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And I think that's why, like, I want to talk to the people that have done something. And uh, and I think it would be really interesting to work with a team that actually wants to do Some applied stuff. I got to do some applied stuff in my last role around marketing, translation and, um, uh, speech to speech and speech to text. And text. How do you eliminate translation for global marketing teams? Um, which was super fun, but, uh, the people that are. No. 1. There's not a lot of people out there that have practical knowledge, my friends. And so you're not behind. Never mind. Yeah, just go get your hands dirty. Um, yeah.

Speaker A: Yep. No, exactly. I mean, I'm. I'm building an AI strategy and I'm sort of like. I'm like, I think I don't know enough about this to build an AI strategy. And then I start doing it and I'm like, you know what I know how to do is figure out where in the journey we could make the journey better with the stuff that's out there. Right? Or where we could make more efficiency. Or where we could take the boring part out of the job. Or where we can, like, I know how to do that. I don't have to know exactly how we would do the API calls to. I've been building products for years and not knowing exactly how we were going to do that. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker B: I was thinking about it in two ways. There's like, from an internal employee perspective, how do we hyper augment the people, People in the company so that they can be more effective and they can do more? So how do you hyper augment the people you already have? And people do a lot of stupid stuff for their job, right? They like, they, like, copy and paste into spreadsheets and they move things from A to B or they search knowledge databases that are wrong. They do a lot of stuff. You can hyper augment those people, um, and not cut them, by the way. Can we go back to, like, I cut a bazillion people because I had AI and then I had to hire them back. Um, so, like, AI is not a strategy for. AI is not a strategy for firing all your people. You want to be able to hyper augment the people you've got, make them more efficient, effective. And then on the other side of that, how are you hyper personalizing or hyper targeting your marketing, your acquisition, your customer conversation. So it's really in very broad strokes, those two things. Things, in my opinion.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100. Like, yes, 100. First of all, maybe don't be smug about laying people off ever, because that will come for you. The karma in that universe is real. So maybe don't smile while you talk about firing 700 people. No. Uh, second of all like you said, there is an element of this that is like we need to be thinking to your point about how do we hyper, uh, augment the people we have, how we do and how do we start to think about like what customers are out there using this stuff? They're, they are sharing that, they are getting used to it. Even customers at different, I mean even different customers in different generations. I mean we used to be that you were like, well, if our customers are boomers, we have to do this because this is how they behave. Not true. Not true. Since the pandemic. Not true. With AI, it's just not true to anticipate that 60 year olds don't do technical.

Speaker B: It's just not like my dad is 88, um, and he like, he probably talks more to Alexa than he does the rest of us all day long. There are interfaces where the older generation is now very comfortable.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think that, that we saw that in travel pre pandemic, um, if you were selling the kinds of, kind of big tours and tour operators were still on phone, email, sometimes sms post pandemic, everybody was willing to get on a video call. And let me tell you, you can get them on a video call. You can sell the hell out of a trip, I bet, because it's a person. And now you're selling me a trip to Iceland and I'm like, yes, please. Right, can I go on that trip? Because you get, you build the connection.

Speaker B: Yep. So that's a beautiful example of behavior design where, like where, where you can bring the, bring the user to a point where you need them to say yes and put them in a place where they're more likely to say yes because they have the information they need, they're able to, they have some level of security, psychological or otherwise, that they now believe that this is not a spam link or whatever human there.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And if it's a human who loves the place that you want to go, man, so much easier to be convinced that I need to go to Iceland or Peru or wherever. You know, I'm going to help you

Speaker B: find the hidden gems. Right. Like it's better than buying some like faceless package off uh, of the Internet where you don't even like, is my hotel going to be close to anything? Like I can't.

Speaker A: Right. And that's, that's an example that I use often of like we had pigeonholed an entire demographic. Something in the world changed and the demographic shifted.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so that's our job. That's part of the job we do.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: So. And figuring that out, I think, is so, so important for us as product managers.

Speaker B: So. All right, so what do we want to do next? Like, if you had a magic wand. You have a magic wand. I've got one on my desk. I'll give it to you. Um, you have a magic wand. Uh, what do we. What do we think the next 12 months look like? Who do we want to talk to? How do we think this changes?

Speaker A: It's a good question.

Speaker B: What do we want from you? Our audience.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think what. One of the things you said. I do want to talk to some people who have actually developed and built something in the AI space.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Come talk to us. Like, come talk to us about what you've done, what you've learned, what has, you know, what has worked, what hasn't. Right. And again, not because you're trying to sell us anything or sell our audience anything, but because you have a lesson that you can share with, with others who are trying to figure this out. Right. I think that's interesting. Um, I think that there's probably some conversations I'd like to have with some folks in the product space, in the, you know, in the tech space, um, around, like, what's shifting, uh, maybe out from under us a bit. Uh, given the shift in sort of DEI and connection and making sure people feel like a sense of belonging and culture and all of that. I'd love to talk to people about what they're seeing in that, um, and how that. How what's happening kind of in the world around DEI and belonging, how it's shifting, maybe how teams are coming together.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, that could be interesting.

Speaker B: I think there's. And I don't want to sign up for anything, so I'm. I'm kind of kicking myself for even opening my mouth right now. Uh, but there's a behavior design group that I was lucky enough to join, um, that really is just about connectivity. And they get together on video like, once every six weeks. Month or six weeks. And it really just is about building connection.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I feel like a lot of the product forums out there are pay for play.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, you. You join this group and you do this, uh, and, you know, you have to pay, and then there'll be a network. Um, you know, if anybody's got any ideas on how to build a product community that is free.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, not ad driven. Like, again, I'm not, I'm not. This, for me, is not a revenue stream. This is about how can I Help as many people as possible and share some learnings that I've had and learn some really cool things from other people.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: Um, I don't have any idea how to make that happen. It just feels like.

Speaker A: But I love that.

Speaker B: I feel like there's something there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that would be awesome. I think, I think along, you know, along those lines. I would also love to talk to more founders who come out of the product space.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Come talk to us about what it means to found a company and why you're, why you feel brave enough to do it. What drove you to doing it? Like, because I think that there is a natural entrepreneurial spirit in a lot of us, but also we're really, some of us are just like, I'm just really good at doing this part. I don't want to. I don't want to found a company. Right. And so I would love to talk to some more folks who are founders, um, who have a product background and what that means for them. What are the things that they go, oh, shit, this isn't going to work that way. I have to think about this differently.

Speaker B: And also, can we, can we extend that just a little bit to when your company's gotten big enough? How do you hand over the reins to another product leader? Because I feel like that there's this moment there where when you're a founder, you're so used to so passionately believe in this thing that you have all the answers and you've had, you've had to. Because you've had to build a business from nothing and you've got money.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: But eventually your product market fit is going to change and it's not your job anymore to be the product or strategy leader. You're the CEO. And how do you let go of those reins? And. Because I feel like there's a lot of pitfalls in there. And I'd love to talk to someone that's like, been there, done that. Yeah, me too.

Speaker A: I love that idea. And then the last thing that I, as you're talking, I'm thinking, I think it would be really interesting and maybe a bit, a bit controversial because I have opinions, but I would love to talk to somebody from the, from the venture capital world about how they view product management. Because I think one of the things that I see venture capital companies doing is they do decent when they're, when they're, when they're looking at a new company for their portfolio, I think they do okay on technical due diligence. But most of the Time they have no idea if the product's any good.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I would love to talk to some VC partners, somebody that feels that they can actually come, you know, talk about that and not, uh, put themselves in their. In their company in a bad light. But let's talk about how you. How you think about product management.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. That'd be a great conversation, because I think that those are. I mean, like, honestly, let's be super clear. I've seen so many examples of technical due diligence not bearing out what the review said.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, and, you know, sometimes get into the systems and you're like, who thought this was even workable? Like, this is madness. Right. Um, exactly. I think there's acquisition plays that make sense, like you can acquire customers and you can acquire tech teams. But a lot of times I think that the technical platform acquisition doesn't always turn out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The way people think. And I sometimes I do think that product acquisition, unless you have a really good idea that your customer base needs this thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you know, I mean, you and I have struggled through lots of platform rationalization projects that are just like, yeah. The rip and tear of, uh, your loyalty program to my loyalty program and the choices that have to be made. It's a disaster.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I love that. I love that comment. I think that's really important. And I think maybe there's also a play, another kind of another angle on exactly what we're talking about. Like, I think one of the most underrepresented roles in boards is people with product background.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: A lot of finance people. There's a lot. There's. Sometimes there's engineers, there's business people, there's angels. Angels. There's all these people. But sometimes you need a product person going, wait, wait, wait, what are you doing? Right. And I wonder if there's not a conversation to be had around, like, board membership and what you could bring to a board, even if it's just us talking about it. Like, what can a product person bring to a board conversation? Right. Yeah. Uh, I think that could be an interesting conversation too.

Speaker B: Agree. Agreed. I like it.

Speaker A: Those are fun.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: A little dream list. So if you fit any of those categories, call us to discuss whether or not you're a good fit for us. So, I mean. And I'll. I'll just say, if you approach us about being on our podcast, we are going to ask you what the topic is that relates to our topic. We're going to tell you what our topic is and say how is. If you pitch us like, I'm this person, we're like, okay, great. How does that relate to what we talk about? And can you hang with the fact that we're not over structured and this is going to be a chat and those are going to be the questions we ask. Right.

Speaker B: Y.

Speaker A: And so be prepared for that. If you don't think that you don't come, don't come knocking because we're not going to change the format. Right.

Speaker B: Funny how many people will be like, you know, I'm this person and I have this subject and we're both like, cool.

Speaker A: Good for you.

Speaker B: That doesn't have anything to do with what we talk about.

Speaker A: Right, Exactly. And so that's fine. That's great. Not us, you know, and we're not changing. We're not gonna swing the whole notion of the podcast out so that you fit. If it doesn't fit what we're talking about, we're like, yeah, thanks though. You know, see you later.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, I think the other thing I would want to say just in kind of getting kind of the close, I think there's a couple things I think we made a good decision when we decided to go to every two weeks because it gave us some breathing room. And I think this is one of those things I would, I would just throw out to all those of you who are listening. If you want to do something, find a, a cycle that works for you. Right. Don't try to push yourself to fit some model that doesn't work because then it just puts too much pressure on you on the partnership, on, on what you're trying to do. So I think for us, that was a good decision. I think hiring Evan was maybe the best thing we've ever done. So should you need a podcast editor, uh, uh, you should let me know, and I will gladly introduce you to Evan, who is a, um, genius in Portland, Oregon. So he's brilliant and he also does other things. He also does all kinds of really interesting social and, and marketing things. So if you need a person like that, Evan is a genius. So Evan, pop your own information right in here.

Speaker B: Yeah. Put your like hashtag or whatever QR

Speaker A: code for Evan right here. Right. But I think we. That was a good decision. Yeah. And then I think for you and I, just having it be something that we, we just discuss and say we should want to talk about this. What do you think about that? Like having that be it be an extension of, um, our already existing friendship and relationship has been what has made it absolutely Enjoyable for me.

Speaker B: I mean, I. I would do this even if nobody ever listened, because I get to spend time with you.

Speaker A: Yeah, same. And so for me, that's. That is. I'm so grateful that we said yes to doing this because it's meant. We have talked more in the last year than we had been able to talk in the previous five. Yeah, right. Because we, on a regular basis are like, oh, hey, we're doing this. What is going on? You know, we. We text more, we chat more, we send each other more our articles. We do that more because we're doing this together. And that has been good for our connection.

Speaker B: Yeah, a, uh, hundred percent.

Speaker A: I'm grateful for that. Until I move into your house with you and Patrick, we'll have to just do this.

Speaker B: Come on in. Bring the cat.

Speaker A: For those of you who don't know, as Marilyn and Patrick are my, like, if I. In case I have to live on the streets, I have. I can move in with Marilyn and Patrick.

Speaker B: We have a whole. We have a whole wing of the house for you.

Speaker A: Should I make a crazy risk and it go badly, they're my backup plan. That's like, great.

Speaker B: Uh, he would be thrilled, you know,

Speaker A: that we always have fun. It's always fun. But. Yeah, but. Yeah. So that's. I mean, I just think if you think of. If you think. If you have friends in. In the industry that you work with and you think, I want to do something fun, do it. If it's a podcast, if it's writing a, you know, a, ah, newsletter together, if it's building something together, do it. That's how we stay connected to the people who have meant something to us along the way.

Speaker B: So. Yeah. And maybe someone gets something of value out of it.

Speaker A: Absolutely. We certainly have heard people say that. Now, I'm not sure if they're telling us the truth or blowing sunshine up our asses, but can I just tell

Speaker B: you, like, again, my heart of hearts. I believe nobody listens to us, but every once in a while, you know, you get that email that someone just expresses gratitude and it. Yeah, like, how cool is that?

Speaker A: I know, I know. We got a really sweet email that I passed to you a couple weeks ago that just came out of the blue from someone neither one of us know, messaged us on our website and just said, man, thanks for doing this. It kept me in the game. And I was like, yay. And that's. That, uh, means everything, so. So thanks for that as well, everyone who's listening?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So, all right, so we will be back for the second half of season two with a bunch of interesting guests, some of whom we don't know. This would be interesting. It should be fun. Um, and so let us know if you reach it. Meet any of the topics we talked about. Um, if you have any topics that you feel like you would like to hear us talk about, let us know.

Speaker B: We may or may not accept the challenge, but we're still in charge of us.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, it was fun chatting with you. Happy anniversary.

Speaker B: Thank you. Happy anniversary.

Speaker A: Sat.