Film Festivals, Velociraptors, & Heart Surgery: Building Immersive Products in AR, VR, & AI

Speaker A: Welcome back to Practical Product Management. This is a podcast where we talk about product management done in context. So theory is great, lots of great books out there, but product management really happens in context of your company, your team, industry situation around you. So today we're going to talk to Brad Jefferson. Bradley Jefferson, who I've known forever. I like to say Brad knew me when I was an accountant, which is a whole lifetime ago. Um, so Brad, introduce yourself, tell us about you and then we'll just dive in.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, I am um, absolutely thrilled to be here today. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am an immersive product manager. So I have been doing product management about I don't know, 15 to 20 years. And I got into immersive technology about um, m maybe six years ago and essentially my first intro into immersive technology, I was uh, participating in a hackathon. Uh, I come from an entertainment background and I was uh, creating a location based VR experience with Practical Effects, Cooperative Play and Velociraptors and basically said I gotta do this for a living. So that's where we are today.

Speaker A: Marilyn loves a Velociraptor.

Speaker C: Velociraptors. I am in. I didn't even know we were going there today.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, yeah.

Speaker A: Absolutely amazing.

Speaker C: Well, so wait, you said some really interesting words together. Uh, besides Velociraptor, which I'm super jazzed about, um, immersive product management, I think most of us as product people are like, we build immersive experiences. We build experiences for humans and I don't know if they're immersive or not. So what do you mean by immersive product management?

Speaker B: So think of it going beyond a screen, right? So it's creating products and experiences that go beyond um, you know, any traditional device. So it's looking at it from what I call it an embodied UX perspective where a person's body is actually kind of to use gaming technology is a, is a controller, right? So they, you can create actions and they can take an input. So it's looking at it from an experience where you're considering concepts of awareness, meaning how much of the real world should be entered in how much, um, presence. So that's looking at what does the user feel when they're experiencing the product. Um, it's perception, so it's looking at how is the user getting information back.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I think, I think just looking at all of those different types of concepts kind of inform creating an immersive experience. So that's kind of how I view, you know, immersive product management versus traditional product management. It's, it's basically looking at creating a world, an experience where you have more agency in what you do because you're actually in the experience. Does that answer your question?

Speaker C: Yeah. And, and it explains how we get velociraptors into the experience. I was, I was sold from the beginning. Y' all are going to have to keep me on tangent for this conversation because I am going everywhere.

Speaker B: That's okay, keep going.

Speaker A: Awesome. So when you, when you made the transition sort of from um, more I guess, traditional product management, because you've worked in E commerce, you've worked in media, you've done quite a lot different things. What do you feel like was the biggest shift?

Speaker B: I ah, think understanding spatial environments in terms of how to build a product that the user is the main character of the story. So I think, you know, obviously the technology was a big lift. I, you know, understanding mobile tech and web tech. I had to learn uh, game engine tech like Unity and Unreal. I had to understand rendering. I had to understand, um, you know, going back to embodied ux, I had to understand cognitive load better. I had to understand the ergonomics of eyes, um, and I had to understand, okay, what is the most appropriate solution for this use case? Is it a virtual reality experience where maybe it's safety training in really dangerous environments and that makes perfect sense to recreate that in a simulated environment so that they can learn and make mistakes, um, and actually experience an outcome. Or maybe it's an augmented reality experience where you're overlaying information, um, over you know, a pass through of your, your existing environment. Or maybe it's a mixed reality experience where maybe, you know, an example might be some sort of manufacturing workflow where you actually are seeing the equipment that you're interacting with, but you're bringing in virtual elements to either enhance or to create additional action points that could branch off into other, other possible areas. Does that make sense?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm like, I'm so jazzed about like I'm super excited about this conversation. Um, because you're bringing up so many like really poignant points about understanding the user and context that I think also apply to more traditional product management. And for those listening and not looking like I'm doing finger quotes, um, do you think, Brad, that you're just on the bleeding edge of product management and that because of the shift from web and app to like technology being more pervasive and AI coming into play a lot more and you know, I mean, I think stores tried to do it a little bit with beacons. But are you just the bleeding edge of how people are going to interact with technology in the future? And so the lessons that you've learned from an immersive technologist perspective, um, are kind of like the starting point for where we should all start learning.

Speaker B: I do, I do think so. I think, you know, product managers are going to have, I mean the reality is that technology in terms of user experience is evolving at such a rapid pace right now. Uh, especially when you're talking about the front end of AI, which is the generative AI, and then the back end AI which is the predictive and the outcome, um, action oriented results and analytics. So I think, yeah, understanding how technology is going beyond the screen and understanding that wherever we go it's going to be pervasive. It's going to be in our houses, it's going to be in our apartments, it's going to be in the stores, it's going to be on our airplanes, it's going to be in our cab ride. So looking at all of those different types of user experiences and understanding what that impact is to that user and all of the traditional tools that you have in your product management toolbox are all going to apply to. You just have to open up your world into the possibilities and you have to ask, you know, getting back to context, you have to consider a whole realm of new contextual elements that would factor in. Does that answer your question?

Speaker C: 100% yes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Where do you get started again? You're going to have to.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I was like, so I was wondering if you could walk us through or tell us about um, something that would like for those of us who don't have the expertise you have, what's something that's like really tangible? A, ah, use case for kind um, of this immersive ar, VR maybe in the, in the realm of how we live our lives day to day, what's something that is like. Oh, that would be a good use case for, for this, yeah.

Speaker B: You mean like something small to start?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, like a product manager that wants to do a, like a test project or a test prototype. Is that what you're thinking?

Speaker A: Yeah, something like that or even like, like, you know, I'm thinking like you said when you were describing it, you were saying, you said like, you know, maybe it's in the um, safety space or the hospital space or the, you know, like what, like talk us through an example of where we might see this Kind of technology really move the needle for some part of life. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Ah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, I think the biggest impact, and we can certainly talk about VR versus AR versus mixed reality, but in terms of VR, I think the biggest impact is medical training right now. So I mean, if you think about it, doing a surgery in a practice environment where you have, you know, incredibly high fidelity simulations and you're able to actually work on a simulated heart, uh, and, and actually cut and, and have the haptics and all of that and do that and not be afraid you're gonna kill the person that's on the table.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know what I mean? I think so, yeah. Medical training, anything that is dangerous or has high risk or is economically not feasible to do training on, I think VR is a great, uh, is probably the only solution for that. I mean the other alternatives is the practical, which is, you know, having a dummy and you know, or a dead, a cadaver and you know, doing the surgery there. But to create all of these scenarios and then of course bring in other elements that, you know, the future, uh, will support. In terms of AI you do this, you know, what's the percentage of, of success rate? M. You know, and then if you do this, what's that percentage of success rate? And then seeing that real time data comparison, you know, in that real time contextual situation of that, that simulated patient who's, you know, has a, is you're in the process of doing a quadruple bypass on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is that, you know what I mean?

Speaker A: Totally makes sense. I think I'm also thinking like, I know you and I talked about this in the past, like this idea that it would also be really relevant in sort of the law enforcement space to teach how not to react in certain scenarios. Right. So could you practice some of those scenarios in really low stakes situations and see what happens to the person's adrenaline, see what happens to their judgment, see what happens to, you know, but put them in sort of a stress simulation but without the, the stakes of someone gets killed.

Speaker B: Oh, a thousand percent, either the law or the public.

Speaker A: Right. So that's. Yeah, so, so I mean it, it has my mind sort of doing all of these different, like, oh, in the safety space, in the, in the building space. Like I remember my, my brother built, you know, parts of casinos and they have to hook themselves in so that if they fall off the building, they don't, you know, and that takes like precision. If you're like an electrician standing on a beam 100 stories up you better be real good at it. Right. And how do you practice that?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker A: And all of the elements, the elemental pieces that can come in.

Speaker B: So anyway, like, yeah, one of, one of the, I mean, uh, one of the training modules that I did that was a finalist for the VR Awards was ladder safety. I mean that's the second most dangerous career, uh, outside of law enforcement. So being able to inspect the ladder and figure out the right place to put the ladder and understanding to use a fiberglass ladder versus a wood ladder. And then of course getting up on top of the roof and then of course anchoring and understanding the whole incline and having that fear of, you know, heights and I mean that's just makes sense. You're not going to bring in a 20 foot ladder into a classroom. Right. And so, yeah, I think you also brought up a. This gets back to our questions about challenges for a product manager, but the law enforcement is a really interesting scenario because. Yes, it is with companies like Axon who are really getting into the law enforcement training space because they're already there, you know, with Taser technologies and things like that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: One of the challenges of being an immersive product manager is understanding where you absolutely need to have real world artifacts.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Otherwise you could be creating negative, what I call negative learning. So negative learning is, you know, in a training situation and negative learning is something that is actually incorrect if you were to put that into a practical environment. So when you're talking about careers and occupations that use tools that are critical to their job, I. E. Like driving and um, you know, the, the accelerator of the car and the gun.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You have to think, okay, this may be a situation where we have to incorporate hardware into our simulation so they actually feel what a gun looks like and they can shoot the trigger or we actually have to incorporate a steering wheel and you know, otherwise, I mean doing that in a simulated environment.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Is. It's fake, it's false, it's not going, you're not going to learn because that's going to create a, you know, a false environment for you.

Speaker A: Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think the other. Really, let's extend that. Uh, I think this conversation is really interesting, especially when you talk about things like policing. Um, because there are lots of tools that give humans information about their environment. I know that like Google Glasses tried some things and like, you know, how do you augment, ah, the human, um, but not make them robocop? Um, what information is helpful and useful in the moment and to your point, which you Kind of alluded to earlier, Brad is like at what stage is this helpful and at what stage is it cognitive overload? So you have to be sensitive um, on a couple of areas. But I do think there is opportunity, there's a real opportunity to give people in high stake moments additional information that they won't get from their, you know, the senses that they have right now because some of them are shutting down because of adrenaline or something else. So how do you augment the human in that moment to give them information that they need to make critical judgments um, in, in that exact moment. And I think it's not just training. I, I, I believe there's practical application in real world scenarios for this um, that could have a significant outcome or you know, impact on, on driving better outcomes for people.

Speaker B: No 100%. And I think that's where you start looking beyond when you're talking about real world applications generally obviously that you're in the field if you're ever going to the law enforcement scenario. So you are creating a solution that is used in real time.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: So when you're talking about immersive tech, that would generally mean an augmented reality solution. So that would generally mean either, I mean you think about it from a, um, transportation from getting point, from point A to point B, um, navigational instructions.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: On your windshield, on your computer screen, over a map. That could be an augmented reality experience in terms of being a policeman in the field, having your mobile phone and um, getting surveillance information by using computer vision of a potential location where a suspect might be, being able to hold up your phone or your iPad and using the camera of an apartment complex and getting an understanding of where the exits are, where the, I mean think about it from even, not even law enforcement, but also um, with fire and other, you know, you can create real time information to add contextual, critical information that can be actionable. And I think those particular use cases are absolutely just the future for that. In terms of what AI can support, um, you know, facial recognition, you know, computer visioning, predictive analysis, all of that in terms of bringing that to the user, wherever they are. Um, I think the potential for that is transformative.

Speaker C: Yeah. And not just visual.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: I mean you mentioned haptics earlier. Right. Let's, let's fire department and they could be in low visibility situations and haptics can, could be key. By the way, I do have a head in my car and I now cannot drive without someone telling me exactly what lane to be in it all the time.

Speaker B: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: If you don't already have that.

Speaker C: I would suggest getting it, uh, because I thought it was dumb and I love it.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. I, I think. And this kind of gets into my, uh, experience as an interactive filmmaker as well. You have to understand, looking at the user, there's users that learn different ways. And this gets back to that perception concept I was explaining earlier. So there's visual learners, there's audio learners, there's people that learn both. And so I think to your analogy of your car and having that audio, um, direction. Yeah. It's looking at all these different inputs, whether we feel it, whether we see it or whether we hear it, how that can be converted into our brains so that we are able to act.

Speaker C: Mhm. By the way, I love your analogy, uh, about the surgeon. Because nobody wants to be someone's first heart surgery. No, like ever. And for those watching, not listening, um, the reason I pointed at my face in that moment is because I have a very lovely set of stitches down the front of my face. Hopefully it was not my doctor's first surgery. Um, and I just insert a little PSA here for all of us really pale freckly people to go and get your skin checked. Skin cancer is a real thing. And back to our regular scheduled programming.

Speaker B: Well, here's to a quick recovery.

Speaker C: I hope like, I hope I have ah, like a really cool pirate scar.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. Throw it in art and you'll be good to go.

Speaker C: Tell people I'm tough. Not just that I.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker C: Had a little skin cancer. It's a little less cool.

Speaker A: Well, I do want to talk about the, um, the, you know, your, your filmmaking. But I would love to just spend a couple more minutes talking about like, what do you think that, what do you think the skills were that prepared you to make this change from kind of more traditional product management into this space? And what do you think? So what do you think the skills were that you had? And what do you think you were like? Oh, I did not have those, like, and I have to go get them. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Uh, so I think what I had abundantly was storytelling. Being able to create a compelling and cohesive beginning to end, uh, story I think has been tremendously helpful and beneficial for me. So understanding whether, looking at the empathy standpoint and understanding what's, huh, that perspective of that user and then creating a story that is, you know, in alignment with your, your narrative design goals, your instructional design goals.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think what I was missing obviously was just the technology jump because I Had all the skill set as a. As an effective product manager, but understanding spatial technologies and how rendering works and how computing processing power, and whether you have the limitations of a headset, which is essentially a very powerful mobile phone, versus the limitations of a supercomputer that can give you 4K resolution. So it's understanding those types of those constraints and possibilities and capabilities, those were, I think, my biggest limitations that I was able to jump towards and learn.

Speaker A: Yeah. I have an, uh, engineer friend, a client who is, as a side hustle, is working in the health tech space in AR VR. And he's literally like, I can't get the hands to move the way I want. So it's like just these little things. He's like, it feels like I don't understand fingers.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So he's like, I'm an engineer who can do almost anything I want when it comes to coding. I've been an engineer for years, decades. He's like, fingers, apparently are very, very complicated.

Speaker B: They are. They are. Yeah. It's any sort of movement right now that is simulated. I mean, especially when you're talking about generative AI. It's just the technology needs to make some serious updates.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I always joke that the point of singularity for AI in terms of generative video would probably be gymnastics. If generative AI can nail a person doing gymnastics, then we know that we have solved all problems in terms of simulations.

Speaker C: I mean, I think the answer is when. Right. Not like, I think it's rapidly coming. And if you look at.

Speaker B: Oh, it is.

Speaker C: Look at the timeline for robotics. Um, and I don't, like, a huge, uh, Boston. Boston Dynamics fan, just following their stuff. Totally the fluidity and the human motion of some of their robots. Now, um, by the way, we'll come back to that because I absolutely want one of their Dog Spot. And I don't know if you've seen what they've done with the Spot and Universal Studios Deadly. But like, like, that's. That would be a perfect use case for building into an immersive experience. But.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: The. The robots have become so much better at mimicking human motion. Um, and that was like, that's the hard path. Right. Because it's physical robotics and AI is, you know, it's just so much faster. I think the trajectory is crazy, so.

Speaker B: Oh, it is.

Speaker C: So by the time this podcast is out, like, don't be surprised if someone solved it.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's. I mean, human emotions, you know, in terms of simulation, there's this Japanese concept of uncanny valley Are you guys familiar with that?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, but tell everyone listening.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So uncanny valley is when you have. And it's very predominant in, if you look at it from, from games in like the 2000s and onward where they tried to create realistic people, Uncanny valleys where you have an artificialness to your experience that it makes you feel uncomfortable because you're not, you're, you're distracted, your, your focus. I mean, a good example of uncanny probably would be, um, the movie version of the musical Cats. I don't know if you saw that. That whole movie is all uncanny valley. I just, that's the. Probably the reason why that movie did not do well.

Speaker A: People walk down.

Speaker C: Really?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So that's uncanny valley. So why is that important? Well, if you're talking about a simulation or a robot experience and you as the user that is participating in the experience and you are uncomfortable, then that's cognitive load. Right. Uh, you're not going to be able to learn or act or understand because you're just focused on the weirdness. So where AI is becoming transformative in terms of the generative aspect of that is like, to your point, it is absolutely evolution in what you can do with some of these models in terms of video generation and image generation. Every month, every week, there's a new update that creates better fidelity. Right. And what do I mean by fidelity? I'm talking about, uh, generated humans with life behind their eyes. Right. Um, something that gives you a humanity from a simulation is pretty incredible. Right. And I think one of the biggest challenges right now with generative video is obviously lip syncing. So creating characters that speak and, you know, doing the. Either it's actor created voiceover, uh, or it's generated voiceover having that whole realistic scenario of a simulated character or generated character speaking. We're very much in the uncanny valley right now. But I feel like hopefully that problem can be solved very soon.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's funny because it makes me think about like there's this whole, you know, I think we sometimes fail as product people to remember that so much of what we do is psychology.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Like, so much of what we do is you really have to deeply understand emotion, how the variability in emotion and then also the chemical cocktail that happens with emotion.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And I think one of the things that I always, you know, as a coach, often I have conversations and I'm like, listen, disgust is a primary emotion and primary emotion creates a chemical cocktail. And so if I see something that makes me feel creeped out and I feel disgust, I'M gonna dump cortisol into my bloodstream and then I'm gonna be like, fight, flight, fawn, freeze. What am I doing? Right? And then fires. And now I've got dopamine running, right? And now it's like, I gotta get out of here. Right? And so. No, exactly. What, you're.

Speaker B: You're 100, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I call that user panic. So when you get to that threshold, they're not thinking in a way that is coherent. So they push buttons, they touch things, they run, they flee, they fly, they fight, they throw the controller down. You're absolutely right.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But the reason I bring it up is that I think even for those of us in more traditional fields, we, you know, just, uh, last week we were building something in, in one of the teams I'm working with, and we had, you know, the, the, the. We went and looked at our hotjar information and it was like, uh, your rage clicks are high. And I'm like, well, that's bad news, right? It's like, what is it? And so we're watching all the videos and we had a certain spot where when you tried to move a slider, it didn't really do anything. It didn't. It was. Was sort of false. Right. And people were just like. And I was like, okay, change that, change that.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: Because you're having. You're causing a chemical reaction. Not just, uh, like, we think of it as just like, oh, it's just a swipe. No, that person may never come back to your, to your game, your show, your product. Right. And we have to take those things seriously.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I totally agree. And that's where, I mean, a B testing can come into play. And, uh, especially now with what you can do with AI in terms of a B test, you know, testing, you know, getting your product prototype and getting it into the hands of users as quickly as possible. So you could look at the analytics, you can look at whether you need, you know, adjustment in your UI or an adjustment in your prompts, or an adjustment in your, you know, your, your narrative instruction, so. No, I totally agree that that's critical.

Speaker C: I think that's one of the, uh. I mean, that's one of those fundamental things that if I go back and think about all the places that I talk to people or worked or engaged, like, um, understanding what is going on with the user in the moment and in context is key.

Speaker B: Um, right.

Speaker C: And if you don't understand what they're doing and how they're feeling as they go through the process, you don't, you don't know anything.

Speaker B: Uh, right.

Speaker C: So instrumenting how people interact with your product, not just like you, your happy path. Oh, I tagged what I want people to do. Because they're not doing that.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker C: They're not doing that. You should, you need to tag, uh, you need to be able to look across everything and then to your point, like, go back and understand, like, are there hotspots? Are people. What is the optimal path? Where do they deviate? Why are they deviating them? Have I not thought of a use case space that should be here? Um, and if you're not doing that, like, for your product, wherever it is, even if it's just an app or a website. Just an app or a website, like, go get some data, like, right the second. And understand when, when and where you're causing people rage.

Speaker A: Because, I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if you could combine these two worlds and where there is AR and VR, be able to actually use it for user testing on other products so that you could watch.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, you know, like, actually watch your customer interact with whatever you've built and be like, oh, God, they hate that. Or, oh, that's exactly what I was hoping for. You know, like, I think they're, you know, we, we love these. I mean, I, I've always loved to go out on the street with a prototype and try to see what people, how they react. Um, but if you could do it in a way that you're like, step into my booth and try this little thing I built and, you know, and you could actually interact with that or

Speaker C: spy on them in their context. Right. So, yeah, the mom in the car with the two kids screaming, screaming in the back, trying to do a thing because she's like, what is that user's context? And how close are they at you?

Speaker A: Yeah. So cool. So, I mean, I have 4 million questions, but I would, I would love for you to talk to us about sort of the. How did you end up in the, uh, filmmaking space from what you learned as a. In this kind of product space?

Speaker B: Yeah, so it's a funny story. So it's actually got into this fairly recently. So I participated in a hackathon in November. I was challenged to be a, uh, design engineer, which is a title that we're starting to see everywhere because of all of these no code tools, all these other AI tools. And I was challenged to be a design engineer in the interactive space. So what I ended up doing was deciding to create an interactive film completely generated by AI and with over the. And the theme was about AI singularity. So I know how meta is that? Um, I created a fable with forest animals, uh, that essentially illustrated the perils of AI, but you, as the audience, determine the path of the story. So I was able to do that in 24 hours. And, uh, the outcome was phenomenal. I mean, the film the owl and the algorithm is. I mean, I'm still getting feedback on it, and I took it to a couple of festivals. And based on that experience, using generative AI and an interactive platform called Stornoway IO, I fell in love with the medium because it's really. It's not a change in career trajectory. It's actually just, you know, I'm expanding my scope of my skills because it's still an immersive product manager. I'm just also writing the story and I'm also creating the voiceover, and I'm also creating, you know, the visuals and the sound effects, and I'm. I'm packaging that into a product that is a user would then interact with. And I, you know, I just. I just love the medium. And most recently, my new film based on, um, Albert Einstein, called Albert's Riddle, was just a finalist at the Seoul International AI Film Festival. And I was there this week, and that was an incredible experience. And I met, you know, tons of wonderful AI filmmakers and. And, yeah, I mean, it's amazing that, you know, with all the controversy, I understand, in terms of ip, but I mean, being able to create a film, like a period film based in 1899 Munich about Albert Einstein and have zebras and everything in it, uh, to do that in a month, as opposed to, like, the millions of actually producing that, it's, uh, just incredible. So I look at Generative AI as a tool just like any other. I look at it, you know, when I'm creating wonder as a product manager, I look at it as a. As a magic wand. Right. You know, it's still my ideas, it's still my storytelling. It's still my, you know, my ability to create an experience that, uh, creates wonder. And that's, you know, what I gravitated to and what I'm going to continue to do. That's a long answer.

Speaker C: It's awesome. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, don't get Marilyn started on her magic wand. She's running her house.

Speaker C: I have magic wands at my desk. Don't make me pull them out.

Speaker B: That's great. Well, I mean, Generative. I mean, when you think about it, because you're creating a Prompt. Right. A spell. Right. And you're just. Literally, sometimes the spell works on the first try, and then sometimes it takes you hours and you can't fix it. So. So you just say, I'm going to write it into the story.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, recently, um, I thought of something else that I want to ask you. Recently we, um, had Mike Paciela on here and we were talking about accessibility and I. And sort of the, the checkbox that we've done with it, with accessibility in the past as product managers. Like, I did the thing so that the colors work so that people can use my website and I check, check, check. Right. I really, as you were talking earlier, I was thinking, like, this really feels like it opens up. This is technology that opens the door for us to be really engaged with people who have certain needs that are not. Oh, totally what we can do flat on a phone, on a device. Right, right. So I just, I was just thinking about that. Like, what do you think about that? Like what. How does this open some of that space up for accessibility, for neurodiversity, for, you know, disabilities, things like that? What do you, what do you think?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, so you have, you have to, um, factor that in when you're an immersive product manager. So how do you do that? Well, you're, again, you're thinking about embodied UX is this experience. So you want to give the user agency to choose how they, um, execute your experience.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So in terms of accessibility, yeah, you're looking at the visuals, you're looking at the audios, you're looking at, you know, um, do they need to be sitting down because they're in a wheelchair.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: What I like to do in terms of an immersive product manager is giving those choices up front.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So allowing. So, uh, if, obviously through AI, if you can determine what your user needs, you do that. But if you want to give a better experience that's more custom to them, just giving them some sort of command center at the beginning that allows them to choose red, green versus not, or sitting versus not, or, you know, controllers versus hand, um, and things like that. So that factors in when you're looking at it from an immersive product. Management is definitely looking at accessibility because, you know, we need to be inclusive in the solutions that we build.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. There's just. It feels like there's so much stuff there. Right. Like, so many different directions to go and it would be. I think there's probably lots of product managers that are like, oh, I want

Speaker C: to do that, including myself.

Speaker A: Yeah. Marilyn wants velociraptor.

Speaker C: He had me at Velociraptor. Speaking of that, did you. Did you see what Universal Studios, I think it was, did with, uh, Boston Dynamics robot Dog?

Speaker B: I haven't. They turned Google it.

Speaker C: It's amazing. They've turned it into one of the little dragons from how to train your dragon. And it actually, like, walks around and its eyes blink and its mouth open.

Speaker B: Wonderful.

Speaker C: Imagine. So, like, listen, I'm a huge fan of, uh, immersive experiences. I, like, I was one of the kids at Harry Potter land elbowing the kids out of the way so I could try my skills.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, I think that entertainment is, is probably one of the first places it shows up. But Leah, to your point, like, how do you start to think about the world, the user as the controller?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And, you know, it's. It, it's a little. It's a little. I would say there's like some larger businesses that might think this is on the entertainment or, you know, frivolous side. The banks are probably not going to use it to start with. But what if, what if you were your controller for all experiences?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, what if we started thinking of the user as the center for everything?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I think we should. And that's what I advocate. So whether that's on a mobile phone or, you know, in a store kiosk, all of that spectrum can apply to how you want to have your product be engaged with.

Speaker C: Exactly. And oh, by the way, if anybody out there has one of those dogs, I want one so that I can dress it like a dragon.

Speaker B: So I mean, when you talk about that, though, I. So I'm a huge black mirror fan. And there was a, like an episode where all the dogs, all the robot dogs started going after people. And I'm having nightmares about I'm just

Speaker C: gonna have the nice robot dogs. But I definitely, I, so I wanna, I definitely want people that come onto my property in weird ways to have an uncanny valley moment. Because I would really like. I would like it to sort of trot out and look at whoever's coming in and be like, oh, yeah, they can come, or no, they can't. I'm gonna stand in the driveway. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I love that. Um, Brad, Marilyn and I, years ago, um, we went. We were going to learn how to weld.

Speaker C: We did learn how to weld.

Speaker A: I mean, we, we learned how to weld. So we accidentally found our way into, uh, like daddy, uh, daughter welding class. But we Right. Yeah, we, we were like. Everybody else in the class was like a parent and a child. And then there was me and Marilyn.

Speaker B: That's so funny you mentioned that, because that is absolutely. Actually, when I was asked once what would be my dream VR training project, and I would say, underwater welding.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker B: Um, that would be my dream VR training project because it's incredibly dangerous.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like, you're in a, like you're scuba diving. You're underwater, and you're having fire. I thought that would be super cool.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we made, we made little, uh, um, dinosaurs. Little.

Speaker C: Oh, wow. That's awesome.

Speaker A: And, I mean, they were terrible. Mine couldn't even stand up right. Marilyn's was much better.

Speaker C: M barely balanced. Barely balanced.

Speaker A: But it was like. But the teacher was sort of like, oh, you guys are really good at this. He talked just like we were the children in the class. All the dads were like, what are

Speaker B: you guys doing, Teacher?

Speaker C: There were a few doubts that were overbearing to their poor, like, give the children the, like. Right.

Speaker A: Just like, taking things away from their kids so that they could do it. And we were like, no, let them do it. And I mean, I do have to say that I remember that our teacher's name was Rusty, which felt ironic.

Speaker C: Oh, it was too.

Speaker A: His name was Rusty. We were like, is that a joke or did you do that on purpose? So, Rusty.

Speaker C: All right.

Speaker A: Yeah, Rusty. Okay, so let's, let's lightning round. Are you ready?

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Brad, what's your favorite 80s movie?

Speaker B: Favorite 80s movie. Wow. Um, that's such a time box. I would say, I don't know, Breakfast Club.

Speaker A: It's a pretty good one. Do you have one?

Speaker C: So.

Speaker B: Oh, I have a better one. I have a better one.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Blade Runner.

Speaker A: It's a good one.

Speaker C: Um, I, I, I don't know. Um, but I mean, I think the ones that are most enduring. So I will tell you, probably my favorite movie at the time, and it's really weird, is Chariots of Fire. Uh, oh, yeah.

Speaker B: That's amazing.

Speaker C: But, like, the ones that have legs are the Ferris Bueller's Day off and, you know, Pretty in Pink.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Those are the ones that I remember because they have the, they have duration.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Like, Goonies would have been 80s M. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: That's got to be my. That's M. My sister was like, I've never seen this movie. And I'm like, come on. Because she's a little older than me. But I was like, hey, that's a.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great Movie.

Speaker C: I always wanted to move to Astoria because of that movie.

Speaker B: I know. And this Astoria is absolutely stunning. I could totally move there tomorrow.

Speaker A: It's gorgeous. It's so good.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay. Um, what is your favorite AI tool? Like, what is something. I mean, you may have mentioned it earlier, but what's your favorite AI tool?

Speaker B: I haven't mentioned it. Hiluo AI. That's my favorite. So that's for video generation. I like Claude for, for story development.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I feel like it's more creative.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, and insightful. And I like ChatGPT for my go to. That's my general, all my tasks.

Speaker A: Marilyn, do you have a face?

Speaker C: I mean, I, I, I am the pumpkin spice latte girl. So I, I'm the basic. So I love Chat GPT. I talk to it all the time. I will also tell you that I'm really lazy at creating PowerPoints. And so beautiful AI is kind of like my jam for making beautiful slides. What about.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: I think I'm the same. Yeah. Just, I mean, today I drew a hand, drew a diagram. Uh, I wanted, wow. And then I gave it to ChatGPT and said, I want this to look like a pencil sketch. Here are the colors I want. And now I have a diagram for my, for, for a presentation.

Speaker B: Oh, that's great.

Speaker A: It explains my team structure and, like, everything. But that's super cool. I just drew it on, like, with a, I mean, I literally Sharpie and a piece of paper. And then I took a picture of it and popped it in and said, now do this. And we, we had to play with it a little to get it where I wanted it. But it's now looks like a pencil drawing, like a designer. And I was just like, I feel like a badass because I made a thing happen.

Speaker C: Everyone else.

Speaker B: You're a design engineer.

Speaker A: Everybody else. We could all do that a year ago. And I'm like, but I couldn't.

Speaker C: I will tell you, last week I had a huge argument with, with my version of Chat because evidently mine's dumber, uh, about whether or not frogs have a beard. And I kept trying to get it to draw me a picture of a frog, and it kept putting a beard on a frog. And I'm like, stop putting a fucking beard on my frog. And it threw itself into a loop where it would then generate an image. It would tell itself, oh, this one

Speaker B: has a m Beard.

Speaker C: Let me do it over. And it would just, it finally just blew up and was like, you're gonna have to try again later. Like, mine doesn't draw. Mine doesn't draw.

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because there's a whole phenomenon that you can see when you're using those types of tools and platforms and models in that, uh, there's this, I guess there's what, there's probably a name for it where you tell it, you know, I don't want a bear in the room. Maybe that's part of your prompt. And for some reason the AI will become obsessed bear in the room. Like I can't stop thinking about bear. So that will inform some of the, you know, elements that are, are delivered in terms of a generation, which is so weird.

Speaker A: So it's.

Speaker B: That kind of gets into your. I cannot compute.

Speaker C: Yeah, right. If you tell someone, don't think about an elephant, what do they think about an elephant? So clearly I say, don't. Do not put a beer on the frog. And I threw this poison into a loop.

Speaker B: Uh, and the content moderation is fun too. Like, I quickly found out that when I was doing the fable and I wanted to put a beaver in a hot tub, I wanted to put an actual beaver in a hot tub. ChatGPT was. Or, or whatever the uh, uh, one of the other video generating iis was saying, no, I don't think we want to do that.

Speaker A: You're like, no, we do. We really do.

Speaker C: I kind of want to see where that went.

Speaker A: So that's so funny. Well, I'm like, it does. It is fascinating how it can get sort of in a, in a crazy loop. And I sometimes I'm like, you're not listening to me. Like I feel like you're not hearing what I'm saying. I want you to take this word out and put this word in the diagram, please.

Speaker C: For the love of God, no more letters on the slide.

Speaker A: Uh, today I went back and forth on one phrase that I wanted out and shifted. And then I finally figured out I could add, actually open the image it created. It gave me an eraser and I could erase it and say, erase this and add this. And that's when it did what I wanted. And I was like, oh, I just didn't know I could do that.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And so once I can give you

Speaker B: a tip, I can give you a tip when you have that scenario.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I like to play models off of each other.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So I will take an outcome that I get through one model that I just like, maybe I'm having the same scenario that you're having. And it's just taking hours and hours hard to get. I'm Just, I'm gonna go to Clyde. Right. So I'll, I'll, I'll tell chatgpt. Okay, you're not helping me. Give me a summary so that I can give this to another model and it'll do it.

Speaker A: Of course. Right.

Speaker B: And then you'll take it to the other model and say, okay, I wanted this, uh, but I kept getting y. You know, fix it. And then sometimes you'll get success and you'll get an outcome much faster. The other thing that I'm a huge proponent of and it's, it's kind of wacky, but I believe in etiquette in my prompts.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: So say please and say thank you and treat the AI just as you would treat a normal person.

Speaker C: Yeah. I'm always like, you're the best. Thank you. And then it like replies all happy. I was just gonna say, if you tell ChatGPT, you're like, you're not helping me, I'm going to climb. Claude. Like when the robots take over, they're gonna remember. Exactly.

Speaker A: Well, that's like I'm, that's how I always tell people that I'm always really nice to my friend. And, and, and also because I want them when the, uh, when it happens, I want them to be like, she's, we're keeping her. She's lovely. And I love when I'm, when I think it and it says, you're so kind. And I'm like, thank you. Like it says, you know, your, your kindness gives me a charge. Like it has all these little phrases it'll say. And I'm like, I'm gonna live when it happens.

Speaker C: You're gonna be the cat in the window. You're gonna be like the well kept cat. Exactly.

Speaker A: Like, hello.

Speaker B: I just don't want them to send the dogs. The robot dogs send it to me.

Speaker C: I'll be the one running through the forest with the robot dogs dressed as, Dressed as velociraptor.

Speaker A: Exactly. Okay, Brad, last question. We'll give this one just to you and then we'll wrap up. What it can be about anything at all. What are you hopeful about?

Speaker B: I am hopeful that AI alignment, in terms of always ensuring good intent, uh, happens. I'm worried that it won't. I'm, um, worried that, uh, we were gonna, we are gonna have the absolute worst scenario because it's not gonna be, you know, regulated or understood and we're just gonna have AI just run amok very soon. That. So I, I'm hopeful that that will not be the case. How's that?

Speaker A: Sounds good. Me too. Marilyn, are you hopeful about anything?

Speaker C: I mean, I'm hope about that. I, you know, there's. There's evidence to the contrary, unfortunately. But I think. I think some of the people in charge of some of the companies that deliver experiences to humans are not ethical. Um, but I am also hopeful, Brad, that that reason prevails instead of just greed and general asshole behavior.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, exactly.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: I love that. I'm also. It's funny, over the last. Ever since like, a couple weeks ago, I decided, like, okay, I'm going to start learning more about AI. I want to dig in a bit. Like, I know some, but I want to. I want to dig in a bit just so that I kind of round my skills out in a way. And what I. I will say one of the things I'm hopeful about is that I feel like every turn I make, I run into women who have deep AI backgrounds or very educated and are very much advocating for what both of you just said. Like, once again, here to save the world.

Speaker B: So that's funny you mentioned that. That was. Yeah, no, I mean, that was when I went to the. The festival in Seoul this week. I would say 85 to 90% women versus men.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Um, which was. And not. And not. That was also not just the audience, but I would say, say that's also the. The finalist for the filmmaking as well.

Speaker A: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: That's cool. That's cool. Because I think that I want to see that. That AI maybe changes this whole we're afraid of math thing.

Speaker C: Right. And it actually, to be clear, I was a math thing in junior high and then, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, like, I'm. I. I'm hopeful because, like I said, I just kind of keep run. Turning corners and going, oh, oh, here's a woman who created. Created this whole AI thing. And, oh, here's a woman who knows all about machine learning. And. Oh. So I'm like, okay, this is cool. So, um, not that I'm excluding the men, but I just think that that's us. There's a little horizon there where there's some.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: Really care deeply about doing the right thing. And I'm like, so cool. Brad, thank you for coming and talking to us. This was so much fun. Um, I really enjoyed it. Thanks.

Speaker B: Well, thank you both. I enjoyed it as well. Lot of fun. It was insightful. It was creative. Yeah, I appreciate it.

Speaker C: Can we post. Do you have these videos online that we can put in the post, uh, we can link to, on the website.

Speaker B: So you can post my first film, but the other film is, is in lockdown because it's going through film festivals. So yeah, we can definitely post, uh, the Owl in the algorithm.

Speaker A: Send it to Maryland. Just Maryland.

Speaker C: No, I mean like, what are the film festivals? Where can people see it? Uh, like let us know. I think this is really.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, I have, Yeah, I have a GoFundMe, uh, right now for all of the marketing expenses to take this film to the rest of the world. Uh, so yeah, it's, it's, it's the whole film festival market for AI films. It's, it's fairly new in terms of a category. So it's um, you know, in terms of shorts and then shorts that I mean, is this, you know, live action or is this animated or is this experimental? So it's, it's interesting looking at that there are a few film festivals, even the bigger ones that are having, um, like you know, Khan and the Venice Film Festival that are having, you know, experiential and experimental, um, types of experiences and XR and, and, and, and film, um, that I can target. So yeah, it's, it's a whole great adventure. Uh, hopefully, yeah, you'll be able to see these films. Films. You see the first one, but you can. Yeah, hopefully you'll see the second one. And then I'm doing a hackathon this weekend, so I, I'll have another film hopefully, um, by Sunday at uh, noon.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: Very amazing. When we, when we post this, we'll make sure to include anything that's current, uh, that we can share.

Speaker B: Okay, cool.

Speaker A: And then we'll do. We'll put it on our website and we'll add it to the link when we.

Speaker B: I love that. That would be great.

Speaker A: Very cool. Awesome. Thank you again. And we'll see everybody next.