How to Stay Human in an AI World: A Deep Conversation with Marilyn Devonish

Speaker A: So if that's okay. All right, yeah. So then.

Speaker B: And so I'm standing there and the voice is going on. It says, he's going to even wonder if you're human. Get in there and do what you know how to do. So by the time we get out of the elevator, all this mental chatter in my head, we're calm. So I go, of course, meet the team. We do the away day. Da, da da, da, da. Design it, go back a few weeks later and run it. And, um, he messages me and he says, marilyn, I don't know what you did to so and so. Because I had one particular team member who was very combative, and they would always go out for drinks on a Friday, and this person would flout go, I'm not going. He just didn't want to. Didn't like them, didn't want to socialize with them. And he said, I don't know what you did. But he came out for drinks on Friday, and he actually had a good time. He's participating, he's part of the team. He's blending in. And so that was one of those, uh, defining moments, because I could have let the mental chatter about, oh, my God, who am I? What am I doing here? Just get in the way of everything. But it's like, no. And then that was the thing that happened throughout, and this was in 2003. And that was, I guess, one of the signatures. I would go into an organization, design a training, run an executive coaching program or whatever it was going to be, you know, running away day. And people would always come and say a couple of things. Number one is like, so what else do you do? Because they get there's more to it than just Princeton Project management or whatever it was. And then they would say, when are you coming back and what else do you do? And do you do anything else here? Which was always very interesting. And I often had people coming in, and I'd often start a workshop saying, you know, why are you here? What would you like to get from today? I've had people genuinely straight, straight as a die. Say, my manager sent me, or I heard there was free tea and coffee, and I just write it on the flip chart. I'm like, brilliant, fantastic. You know, and people have been sometimes outwardly aggressive and quite rude. No problem.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, every single time at the end of the training, they would sidle up and say, oh, Marilyn, I just want to apologize for earlier. Uh, you know, I'm having a stressful week, or I'm having a stressful day, or there's a lot in my in tray, or da, da, da, da. And then they were saying, this has been the best training I've ever been on. Didn't expect it to be this good. I didn't expect to learn anything. And you've just blown my mind. And that, I know, all stems back to that day in the elevator at, uh, hmrc. Having that conversation with myself and saying, you know, you, You. There's things you know how to do, get on and do them to the best of your ability.

Speaker A: You know, one of the things that I think I've learned from you, watching your videos, um, having you on the Connection Loop podcast years ago. It's been years. I think that was pre pandemic, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker B: Yes, it was.

Speaker A: Yeah. Is that you? Your superpower is perspective. Your superpower is the ability to. We. We all live with this paradox and this, I think, a flaw, which is that our entire perspective is looking out. Our eyes are pointed out. Uh, we have zero ability, unless we have a mirror, to look at ourselves. Right. And we spend 12 hours of our day looking out. And how many hours do we spend looking at ourselves? It's very small. I think your superpower is the ability to. To gain perspective, which is to take yourself out of this locked, limited, myopic perspective and to take yourself out. To be in an elevator and to say, he's going through something. I'm going through something. There's a problem here. There's an arc to get to the end of a solution. And I just need to do what I do. I need to detach myself from my ego. I get that vibe from you. I need to not be offended if someone hands you their coat when you're the keynote speaker at the event.

Speaker B: I just take the coat.

Speaker A: You just take the coat, and then they see you on stage. That's a detachment of ego. And then for you to ultimately fulfill your purpose. So my question for you, Marilyn Debonish, is how do you change your perspective?

Speaker B: It's really funny. You said a couple of things that just gave me goosebumps. Um, one of them, I'm always talking about limitless potential, that whole thing about. And I've also, on my tagline for the last few years, I call myself a futurist. The reason being. And I don't mean this in, oh, there's a crystal ball and there's a tall, dark hat, although I do read tarot. But, you know, it's not that I have had the ability to see what's Coming actually say it and then it happens and I could be 5, 10, 15, 20 years ahead. Um, but there's that. And you're gonna, you're asking in my head, I'm like, okay, how does that happen? I sometimes like there's something that with smart cards, for example, or let's say call centers. I was a conference manager in the 1990s and um, I had this vision that call centers wouldn't just be a place where somebody just answers the phone. It's going to be a communication center. And I called it that, I called my conference the next generation communication center. It's a contact center. It's a place where everything happens. And this was in the 1990s and that wasn't yet a thing. And I said it's going to be way more than just having people answer the phone. It's going to be all sorts of now call centers. Actually I've seen them called contact centers and communication centers, which is what I said in the 1990s. So it's one of those things. Number one, there's something in NLP, neuro linguistic programming that calls. You go meta. So you almost kind of get out of yourself.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You're almost looking down on yourself as you sort of described. And then you're saying, okay, in this moment, with this gift of hindsight, because hindsight normally comes after the fact. So in this moment, if I were just to look down on this situation without me being in the situation, how does it look? What's the next move of this and where do I think this is going to go? So for example, on Friday 13th March 2020, I did a live interview with BBC Radio, the this is Money program, 6 o' clock in the morning. And I was, and I said to them, 13th of May 2020, we had not yet gone into lockdown because I was just on my way into London to go to an event. I said to them, what we're going to find is with people working at home for a couple of weeks. It was two weeks to flatten the curve apparently. I, I said they're not going to want to come back into the office. They're going to fight to stay at working at home. And I said that in 2020, March was it, two years later, there was a thing called the big resignation, uh, where people did not want to go back into the office. It was all over the News. There were CEOs, Amazon, all the rest of it. They've all got a view on all the rest of it. And I said, I said that on that show. So it's that. So I kind of look at the situation, go, where do I think this is going to go? And, and the path for me often is just clear. It's just like, this is gonna happen. I remember saying on this is probably a little bit controversial, but in November 2020, I said, we're gonna get to a point where no vaccine, no travel. And people said, oh, you're scaremongering. You know what happened on 17 May

Speaker A: 2021, no vaccine, no travel.

Speaker B: Six months later, no vaccine, no travel. So I just went back to that post and Facebook is fabulous for that. But everything is timestamps. So I've got so many of those instances where I've said something because I could just see it coming. I'm like, this is going to be the next logical or even illogical conclusion. It just feel, it just feels clear. It's like, that's what's gonna happen.

Speaker A: Okay, so now, see, see, now I want to tap into the superpower and I want to, I want to get your perspective on some of the things that, that I'm dealing with right now. When I think of Dubb, um, as a company, but really higher than that. Leveraging video, leveraging automation, leveraging AI to make connections, to grow our businesses. And here are some of the biggest fears that. It's a collective sort of set of fears that I think people feel and then I think we as a company feel collectively. Number one is, where is the future of sales going? Where is the future of authenticity going? Right now you can clone. I went through the, the full AI cloning process. I'm just literally on the, on the, on the week, less than a week out. Outside of that, I went through all the apps, I went to a studio, I did my voice with the right microphone. I had the three point lighting with the, with the nice, um, you know, background, you know, virtual background, like full clone of myself, which was. It was terrifying. And I said to myself, and then, you know, some of the people on my team started sending me sample videos. And, you know, there's this idea of uncanny valley, which is like where you see AI and you feel uncomfortable because the fingers look weird and the eyes look weird and the lips don't match. You call it Uncanny Valley because the believability of the know product that you're seeing is not good. So I definitely felt that I'm like, that's not my voice, that's not how I use my hands. That's a little off. But I said, in six months, it's probably going to be amazing. Which means I now. And there was the fear component, which is. Oh, my God, this can be used for evil.

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A: Which is terrifying. But then there's the. What is the future of human connection? Because when we started this company, dub in 2018, the thing that we were so passionate about is how can we bring people together. With Vee, if you can see someone like, this is my first time meeting you in person. I feel like I know you.

Speaker B: I feel like I know you too.

Speaker A: I've watched you on videos, you're three dimensional now instead of two. But I, uh, feel like I know you, which puts you on a pedestal because I have this sort of parasocial relationship with you where I feel like I've met you before and I feel like I've seen you because I've seen so many of your videos. Where is authenticity going with AI? How does AI and hi, human intelligence, how are these going to work together when it comes to building trust, making connections with people whom we want to potentially work with, and then longevity and sustainability for all of us that are playing this game?

Speaker B: Do you know what? One, uh, of the things, I jokingly said it, and I kind of meant it as well. I said, I think there should be a rule that all AI has to have six fingers. Because it's getting to the point where I have seen a few things already, where I'm like, is that the person. I'm not sure. And then I've seen. It's not quite AI, but I've seen some of those videos where people have the rubber mask. And then there was one which was an overlay and it was Morgan, uh, Freeman. So the person is talking, voice is authentic, boom, boom, boom. And then suddenly it was like, whoa. Because it starts to like, um, there's that Arnold Schwarzenegger, the one about Mars where he's wearing this big mask and suddenly it goes. So he peels back the layers and he says, I am not Morgan Freeman. And then it all just falls away and I'm like, whoa. So I quite like at the moment that it doesn't sink, that the eyes aren't quite right, that the lips aren't quite right, but they have maybe got six fingers instead of five because you can't use it to fool people. I, uh, think when we hit that next point, and I don't think it's going to be as long as a year or two, things are getting better every single day. There's a piece of software I won't say it here, but there's a piece of software that I use. When I first got that software, I'm going to say about six months ago it was all right. But clearly if I put something out, people like really Marilyn. And it's a bit of a laugh.

Speaker A: This is like an AI avatar.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you create little avatars, videos, etc. They've just done a 2.0 release. Oh my God.

Speaker A: How's the voice?

Speaker B: It bears no relation to what they had before. The eyes are blinking, the lips are sinking, the movements are much more fluid. People have done like music videos where they're thing is singing and all the rest of it and I'm like, whoa. Now that was just in the last few months. So I think our minds are going

Speaker A: to be balance of improvement now in

Speaker B: terms of human connection, I'm in a place at the moment because I've had people say to me, Marilyn, I don't like when you send me the AI videos. I like to hear your voice. So there's already that pushback. I think people will get over that. Because I was around in the days where there were telex machines. I was a telex machine operator. Then there's this new thing called the fax. So as a fax machine operator, I've used a LIFO printer where, you know, ink and you're doing the thing. And I've used all of the tech as it's been coming out. I was a switchboard operator when you could connect more calls than, you know, one at a time. So I've seen all of the things in our modern day era coming. One of the things that makes me smile now is I came into London today. Most people that I saw listening to music had headphones this big.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, they were the headphones we were using in the 70s and the 80s and then suddenly they were so tiny you couldn't see them. They're like the size of this microphone now suddenly, boom, it's all back. So I think what this is going to do, it's going to for ease of use. Amazing. I can knock out an AI video in like five minutes if I really wanted to. Great. But actually in terms of when it comes down to it, and I think this is partly also what we've been through in the last five years as well, I actually think people are going to start re craving human connection. The pendulum swings conversation Let me hear your voice, Let me hear you. Because one of the things AI hasn't got right yet, I have got a program where I can choose from, like, 15 different nuances. Angry, happy, sad, empathetic, whispering, all the rest of it. Still, I still know it's AI.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so that intonation in someone's voice, the, uh, changing color of their skin. And I'm not talking about just being able to see someone because I've been doing telephone coaching since 2005 and people say, no, it's not possible. I'm like, stand aside, let me give it a go. It wasn't even what the person said, because most of the times when I say I'm not listening, I don't mean that in a rude way, because they're just full of words. You know, they've got the story, they're downloading it, but I'm listening for something, right? And oftentimes what I'm listening for is what they did not say. So as wonderful as AI is, because, um, Sam Altman, the CEO of Chat GPT, I shared a video yesterday where he was saying that people are using ChatGPT as their therapist. And we don't have a legal handle on that because in the United States, you've got the HIPAA protection. Generally speaking, if you were to say something, let's say to your psychiatrist, it's, etc. Legally, they're not going to go and say that to anyone else. They're bound by certain rules. And he said, none of that exists on, um, AI. But the thing that I thought was interesting because I said this a few months ago and I pitched the idea to some journalists and people came back going, don't be ridiculous. I said, I actually think there's going to be a bit of a shift and change in our industry, coaching and therapy, where people are going to be using AI for coaching and therapy. I was told that was ridiculous, and now here we are. I think I pitched that idea in April 2025. We're now July, coming to the end of July 2025, and now here's Sam Altman saying, that's one of our biggest uses. So we need to get our head around the legality of that, because at the moment, if the police or lawyers came and said, I want to see the transcript between AI and this person, the way it stands at the moment, they're just going to have to hand it over. But one of the things I'm thinking about with regards to this, AI can give you some good answers, but in terms of the human connection, AI won't necessarily hear what you don't say. It won't hear that inflection in your Voice. Because words on a piece of paper or typed into a screen do not have the same resonance as the words that will come out of our mouth. And I haven't. Don't get me wrong, we. Because we've already got the walking, you know, the robots. There's that one that they always wheel out at conferences, and she has a good old conversation with people and it's always looking.

Speaker A: Boston Robotics is an amazing, amazing.

Speaker B: Absolutely. All of that is. Seriously, that thing was a better dancer than me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I do like a good dance break. So all of that is coming. And I think even with all of that, I feel that as humans, we're still going to gravitate back to us.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah.

Speaker B: And that just that. That. That energy vibe between people. And that vibe exists even on a phone call. That vibe exists on a FaceTime. And of course, it's amplified when you're in the same space. So it's going to be exciting. I think. It's usually your pile on. And then there's a bit. A bit. We're talking about Clubhouse. Before we started recording. That was a moment in time. And there was some moments where it actually felt like it was gonna last forever. But I knew in my mind, I'm like, nah, once people start having to go back into, out of lockdown, this thing's probably gonna fizz. I didn't realize it was fizzle quite as quickly, because one minute it was there and it was hot. And no offense to Clubhouse, I'm sure you're still going and you're doing very well. I hope you are. But in terms of the buzz, the vibe, it was just. It was magic.

Speaker A: It was unbelievable. Yeah. Um, okay, so couple of things come to my mind here. The big headphones, um, when you wear AirPods, you expose yourself to an invitation from people to bother you. When you're using AirPods, people don't have discretion. Hey, excuse me, Can I ask you a quick question? Hey, uh, would you. When you have those big. Like, when I go to the gym, I have to wear the big headphones. Otherwise you just get. You get. You get disturbed so frequently. And there's a really interesting story here about privacy, about private space, about people wanting to be in their own cocoon. Like in the. In the tube here, the last thing you want is for someone to talk to you. In the tube in London, that's the last thing you want. So what better way to do it than. Than having a huge pair of headphones? Now, the paradox here is that if we're going to Go spend most of our lives wanting privacy from people. At some point we're going to do exactly what you're talking about, which is craving that human connection. So we're closing ourselves off a little bit to have more privacy. But at some point we are going to want to get. We're going to want to fill our cups. If we keep closing our cups off.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, you know, I totally agree with you that this pendulum is going to swing back to real human connection. And the thing that I'm very curious about though, is what you said, is what people are not saying. The silence between the words, you know, that space between thoughts and between sounds is, Is sort of like where the truth lies. You know, this is where the beauty of Beethoven music happens. It's like, uh, that without that silence, it would not be Beethoven's fifth. And I think that, you know, when you speak to people about soul searching, when you speak to people about big goal accomplishment, quantum leaps, you know, going from starting a company in a small little cupboard to creating the next billion dollar company, there is an intuition that's required. And sometimes people need to hear that. People need to hear, you know, what the vision that I feel from you, not that I hear, but that I feel from you, is palpable. And there's something special here. And I don't know what it is, I don't know how to quantify it, I don't know how to qualify it, but I feel something. And sometimes that feeling is the biggest and best catalyst for someone with a big goal or even someone that just wants to solve trauma, someone that wants to overcome challenges in their lives, to fulfill their purpose and to get really, truly on their path. And I don't know how AI is going to do that.

Speaker B: It will look, because as you were talking, and we were talking about Harry Potter today as well. Yeah, we know there's magic in words. Now. One of the things that is magical, though, is somebody is pouring their heart and soul onto that page. One of the things that AI is doing is pulling those words so it could theoretically put a bunch of words together that still holds the essence of someone's heart and soul that went into it. And those words could move you. Um, I don't doubt that because it can just lift something and all the rest. And of course, you know, there's a big conversation about copyright IP and all the rest of it with regards to authors. And I still feel that as humans, there is something, you know, the whole, when they say in gestalt, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts as yet. As much as the robots might look more realistic and might move a bit better than they can dance, they're not us. They don't have all of the. I mean, gosh, humans. So complex, so basic as well. On some level. There is a mix here, a synergistic mix that. Okay, no, this is. You might have to edit this bit out. I'll put this as politely as I can. I watched a documentary about two years ago, and there's a robot that people were buying because they were lonely. This particular robot, you can specify the size, the shape of everything that you want. The high color, the hair. The robot was actually programmed to withhold. I'm just going to say affection. You can use your imagination. Um. The robot was programmed to withhold affection if their host owner did not treat them well. Like, if the host owner was not polite, did not engage them in conversation. I'm watching this. I'm like, oh, my God. This robot is doing what many humans don't do. You know, people are in abusive relationships, et cetera. They are being pummeled black and blue, and they're not withholding anything. In fact, they're trying to give more and more and more. And this robot was like, oh, no, no, no, you haven't spoken to me nicely today. No affection for you tonight. And I was like, oh, my God, this is a robot. And this is how they've programmed it. And I was like, whoa. And there are people who are marrying or talking about marrying these robots. So I know somewhere in the brain and then the psyche, depending on where you're at and who you are and all the rest of it, this stuff can feel real to the point where people are saying, I actually don't even want any human connection because I've got everything here with point to robot. So we're all different. We all have different needs and requirements. But I think, generally speaking, as human beings, there's this wonderful synergistic mix that we're not necessarily going to get just from technology. The mix and the blend of the two, that could be something super special. And with every thing that comes in, there's an upside, there's a downside. And one of the things that worries me about the. The AI and its realism and all the rest of it is you will probably get to a point where we don't know who we're talking to because it might sound so real. People are already fooled by those text messages. The. Hey, Mom. Hey, Mom. Hey, dad. Lost my phone. This has happened that has happened. Could you just activate this, click this link? People have lost thousands, probably millions, right. So we already know even with what we've got. So that's one of the thing things that worries me is you might not know who you're talking to, but there we still have those slip ups where suddenly the either the person writing it or the AI says something, does something, glitches and suddenly your intuition kicks and go, whoa, yeah, ah, this isn't what I thought, this isn't who I thought. And I do hope that remains. But I think in six months from now we're going to be looking at some stuff that is just mind blowing.

Speaker A: I'm very sensitive of that. In fact, when I sent you a message on Facebook Messenger, I said, I have to speak to her in person, I have to call you because how do you know what, who, what bot is sending you a message saying, hey, let's meet in London random out of nowhere for a podcast? You know, I get that feeling when I get a message from someone out of nowhere. I always have a little, little filter, a little trigger that says, what's going on here? Why don't I just jump on a phone call?

Speaker B: That's the living embodiment of dub. That is the product that you have created, which was, hey, I'm going to have a video in the email, it's going to move, it's going to be animated in those first few seconds you're going to click it and then we're going to see you, we're going to hear you and have that interaction.

Speaker A: Well, for me it was, it was the trust, the trust building, but it was, it was, it was much more than that and it still is, which is that quantum leap, you know, how do you accelerate a relationship that could take weeks if not months to develop, where you say, I trust you, I want to work with you, I will sign on the dotted line, I will give you this money to receive this service and I'm committed and I will refer you to my friends. Even though I've never met you in person, how do you make that quantum leap? And we're still thinking about that. And now with AI, with all these things that we're talking about, we're still thinking about it, but it's in a very different capacity. Um, the thing that we're trying to figure out is how do you send that truth, that authenticity in a digital format that is the space between words, the essence, you know, the soul connection.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, I'll be very honest, we have not Figured it out. There's. I don't know who has. We want to be the first to figure it out. How do we do that? We're still working through that. It's cosmic, it's abstract in nature, but there is this essence of humanity that we feel still in person that has not been able to be replicated with technology. And I don't know if they're going to do that.

Speaker B: You know, it's so interesting when you're talking, I'm sort of laughing because I remember the scenario. I. Oh, my gosh. Remember the spin? I think it was in 2005. I was asked to write a magazine article about what it's like to be cheated on. And it was coming. I think it's called Overcoming the Affair. Like, how do you overcome it when your partner's cheated on you to write that article? Because I was five years beyond that scenario. I got my old diaries I'd written in the last 1990s, and I sat and I read the diaries. It was like somebody. I remember. I literally remember the day, like, sitting on the sofa, crying my heart out. There was actually some tear stains on some of the pages. I remember writing it, but I didn't feel it anymore. However, to write the article, there's something called anchoring, where you anchor yourself into that state. So I put myself back into that state, wrote the article, sent it to the editor of the magazine, and then put the notebooks on the shelf. I was finished. You know, a few months later, I'm at the gym. There's a place called Holmes Place in the barbican. And they had a. The running track went round the building and it was glass. So I'm running around the track and the trainer is kind of. Every time I go past, the trainer's kind of looking at me, and I'm like, maybe he likes my running style. Or maybe he's like, what are you doing? So anyway, I then stopped to get some water, and he said, excuse me? I said, yeah. He said, are you Marilyn? I said, yeah. And I thought, okay, you know, maybe looked at the phone and he said, um, did you write the article for his health magazine? And I went, oh, yeah. And he said, I'm so sorry. Oh, my God. And then he got. And I said, oh, no, no, it's all right. I said, it happened a few years ago. And I said, that's interesting. And then I started getting emails from people saying, oh, my God. I read the article. I was so. I was crying. I was this. And I was, uh. That. And Then the kicker for me, one of my sisters is a lawyer. So I'm at her garden. She's having a garden party. And we one by one, because I bought the magazine with me, and I said, oh, I wrote this article, you know, one by one, my sisters are coming up and going, oh, my God. I had no idea you went through all of that. Oh, my God. Because I didn't tell them at the time when I was suicidal. I didn't discuss it with them. The first they would have known is they got a call from the coroner going, hey, she's gone. You know, I'm not making light of it, but, you know, um, so they had no idea. And they were like, oh, my God. And then, are you all right? And I'm like, I'm fine. And I was like, oh, my God. I think what's happened is because I wrote the article in the. You know, reminding myself what was it like. And all the rest of it, when people are reading those words, they appeared to. Well, they were picking up on the emotion that went into it. And one of the things AI doesn't yet have, as much as I can click a button and say whisper or anger, it doesn't have that thing that we call emotion. The energy, the vibe, the love, the. The anger, all the rest of it, it doesn't yet have those nuances. And there was something about. And I've still got the article to this day, but, yeah, the reaction from people was just like, out of this world. M. And they were feeling what I was feeling all those years ago, because I put myself momentarily back into that state to write the article.

Speaker A: I love that. That's real. Storytelling is the biggest thing for me. Um, I think the challenge with storytelling is. I think it's threefold. Number one is that people don't necessarily know how to tell a story. It's very challenging. There's an art, there's a craft in storytelling. Number two is, what if the story is not theirs? And if it's not theirs, they don't have a connection to it. Like, you'll. You'll hear a founder start a company saying, I founded this company because I was going through this problem. Maybe yourself. I went through this conflict, and I wanted to help people. And then number three is this idea of, how do you feel authentic, not having imposter syndrome, being a storyteller. Because people with a lot of experience that go on stages, like yourself, they're trained in storytelling, so they're the leaders. They're the people when they're speaking At a table like this, everyone's listening to them. That's a craft. It takes years to build the confidence to learn how to do it, you know, to elevate yourself. And I think what we've realized is that we need to do a better job to help people to tell stories. Because if we don't tell people and educate people and get them comfortable telling stories, the problem is they're just going to read words.

Speaker B: That's actually. That is brilliant. Because, you know, people watching, I'm guessing they've heard of the Hero's Journey, uh, which is the Ark, which is. It's everything. Whether it's Star wars, the Matrix, Dorothy and the Red Shoes, Moses, whatever, it all is the archetypal journey. And it pretty much follows that same pattern. And there'll be times where you can, you know, lump bits of it together. But I have found that when you systematically go through that journey.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So when you go through that journey and look, I've sat in rooms where I know people are telling a story. It's not theirs.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, but don't get me wrong, it sounds good, and, um, people in the room would be moved by it. But there's that little thing that you don't. It doesn't quite land.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And then by the same token, I've heard people just tell a raw story. They haven't followed the hero's journey and they've been forming. And I've heard people use the Hero's Journey, and they've used it like a robot, and it still doesn't like. So one of the things I would definitely be saying is, um, with regards to the story, sometimes it is just about telling the story. At other times, there's a point to it. So what is that the way I would call it if I was teaching somebody to deliver a presentation? One of the things I say is, what's the golden thread? What is the thread that runs through this thing that everything is going to come back to? And if you were to choose a word, what is the word that you want to land with someone? And that word, it doesn't come out of your mouth necessarily, but you live it, you breathe it, you feel it. So let's just say somebody wanted to give the audience, I don't know, inspiration. You better show up inspired, you know, you better be having that coursing through your veins so that every single thing that comes out of your mouth in some way, shape or form is related to that golden thread. And people will feel inspired. And lo and behold, I I had a client who was invited. She didn't have to apply, she was invited to do a TED Talk. And she was petrified. So we did some work together. And, uh, I said, this is going to be your word. You're going to live this, you're going to breathe this. You're not allowed to say it, but you're going to embody it. Notice what happens. She barely gets off the stage and somebody says, thank you. That was. And they said the word. She said, okay, that's weird. Then she gets off stage. Her name's Erica and she's written a public testimony, which is why I'd say her name. They're like, erica, that was. And M. Then they said the word. And then she walked a few more steps. She's like. She said, she's like Marilyn. And then people online who weren't even there, they haven't yet seen the talk, they said, erica, I bet you were. And they said the word. And I say to people, choose an unusual word, not one that everybody's using, because when that word is, you know, you've done your job. When people are saying, oh my gosh. And it was the word that she chose. And then everything builds around that. She, she lives it, she breathes it, she wants to emote that and give that as a gift to the audience. And then whatever. A story then gets overlaid on that. Great, fine, wonderful. We can kind of have a four stage process for doing that. But that's, I think when it get, when it really gets really.

Speaker A: That's the golden thread that you mentioned. Yeah. Uh, I wrote down ops, other people's stories. And I think that when we don't have a story for ourself, we have to go to other people's stories. And I think there's a difference of owning the story, understanding the story, reliving the story, sharing the story in a really human, emotional way as opposed to just sort of regurgitating something. And I think that one of the things I realized in this conversation with you is that when people don't have stories of their own, sometimes you do have to tell. Tell other people's stories.

Speaker B: Get good at doing that and get

Speaker A: good at doing this.

Speaker B: Is Hollywood, uh, Hollywood is always telling other people's stories because it's very rare. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare for the person who lived the story. Because after I'm not even alive anymore, somebody is telling their story, but they tell it with passion.

Speaker A: They tell it with maybe better than the original. The person who experienced it.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So it's possible to do it, but then you've got to be it. Yeah.

Speaker A: You got to make it your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Uh, we, we always tell people to spend 80% of your time crafting what you're going to say and then 20% saying it. Recording a video, you know, doing the podcast, doing the YouTube video, doing the social post, whatever it is that you're going to do. 80% of your time is just contemplating and thinking, what is it that I want to say? The problem is when a lot of people think about it, that's when they just. I wrote the book. I wrote the book called Click Record, because I want people to click record. And when people start thinking too much, they get in their head and then they don't.

Speaker B: And I say, look, I say to people, practice where it doesn't matter. When I first started out.

Speaker A: Practice. Let's say that again.

Speaker B: Practice where it doesn't matter. So when I first started out, I'd rehearse my presentations in the shower. I'm going to have the opening, going to have the closing, and I'm going to have the golden thread. And, uh, if they're saying, look, if there's three things you wanted to land, what are those? Make sure I land those. Everything else is a bonus. But I'd actually say it out loud in the shadow. There's nothing else to do in there. And then once you. In your head, it could sound great, then you say it out loud. You realize those words don't go together. It doesn't flow. I'm not feeling it. And then once I'm feeling it, as long as I know how I'm going to open, as long as I know how I'm going to close, as long as I know what I really want to land in terms of the golden thread, everything else is a bonus because that golden thread is what do I want to leave the audience with? And I always want to leave the audience better with something more than when I entered the space.

Speaker A: Beautiful.

Speaker B: But for me, how are you going to open? Get that down so it just flows. Know how you're going to close so you're not left floundering at the end. What is that, uh, bit that, that thread that's going to run through it all and hold it all together. And now two or three things you want to land off. You go and speak from the heart, from your soul, you know, from every fiber of your being. And that, uh, is oftentimes better than somebody who's Got a perfectly crafted presentation that is word perfect, but has no heart and no soul in it. No grit, no realism, no truth to it. Um, and in terms of people who get emotional, whatever, I'm like this, it's about appropriateness. There are times where emotions will come up. There are times where, look, if I'm running a project management M training, this is probably not the time to be bearing my soul, whereas if I'm running something on, you know, unless it was a really stressful project, um, but, you know, it's that whole thing and, um, everything is like, it's not about you, it's about your audience. So when people get their focus off of themselves, am I saying it right? Am I doing it right? Am I standing right? It's like it's game over. Whereas when it's like, it's about your audience, what are you delivering for your audience? Now this is where it is.

Speaker A: Okay? So please end us with your golden thread. Where can we connect with you? Uh, where can we learn more about you? Your favorite channels close us out.

Speaker B: My favorite. Well, I'm going to say my M website and then I'll spell it because it's a bit of a mouthful. It's transformationstm.com and it's t R A N C E as in hypnotic trance. I'm a hypnotherapist as well. F for Freddy. So F O R M M A T I O N S T m as in trademark. So transformationstm.com I always say with the website, it was built in 2001 and it looks like it was. It's now just a repository. So click the red what's new button and, um, the panel will slide out and then you'll get links to all the places where I, where I share stuff. Stuff. My favorite channel is, um, Facebook. I would say to people, don't follow me if you don't like a ton of content. And I'm often having a bit of a rant there as well. Putting the world to rights. But Facebook is where you're. You'll normally find me. I have got an Instagram, which is the neurosuccess coach. I'm Marilyn Devenish. M M A R I L Y N D E V for Victor O N I S H so on all the usual channels except for one. But we might get that remedy.

Speaker A: Yeah, we are going to fix that. We are going to fix the LinkedIn problem. And most of us have been in LinkedIn jail at some point for, you know, one reason or the other. You log in from a different device when you're traveling. And, yeah, we're gonna help you with that.

Speaker B: And, um, YouTube again, it's just Marilyn, and YouTube pretty much is just a repository for stuff I'm going to embed somewhere else. But, yeah, I'm always happy to talk, always happy to chat. Personal development has been my life since the year 2000. In September 2000, I contemplated suicide. In October 2000, I discovered I was dragged backwards. Interpersonal development. The rest, as they say, is history. And I am just passionate about helping people tap into who they are. What do you hear? What do you feel you're here in the world to do? And then giving people the tools and the skills to do that. Whether that's removing the old limiting beliefs and negative emotions and mental chatter, or next leveling the mind and the brain.

Speaker A: So, yeah, uh, let's get on the path. Well, Marilyn, I wanted to thank you for being on this episode of the Conversation Connection Loop podcast. And, um, we'll see you in the next video. Marilyn, I would love to.

Speaker B: And really thank you so much for watching. I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, guys. Thanks, Marilyn.

Speaker B: Thank you.