Curious Minds Wanted: How to Hire Great Product Managers

Speaker A: Welcome to Practical Product Management, a podcast where we talk about how does, uh, theory and product management show up in practical ways, in context. So that's what we do every week. Hi, Marilyn.

Speaker B: Hello.

Speaker A: I think we decided today we would talk about hiring, hiring product managers. Okay. So we're gonna talk about hiring product managers. So let's do it. So when you hire product managers, what are you looking for?

Speaker B: Uh, oh my gosh. So I love this topic and I think we've talked about it many times before.

Speaker A: For sure.

Speaker B: I, I'm going to get on my soapbox here for just a second.

Speaker A: Hold on, let me build it.

Speaker B: I think product management is, um, poorly understood.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I think a lot of companies want product managers, um, until they have them. I think lots of companies need product managers and they don't have them. I, um, think people try to take individuals from other job families and turn them into product managers, which is possible, but it is not a two month process.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, so learning on, on everybody's side, uh, we should talk about that. Um, but when I hire for product managers, there's really three core competencies that I'm looking for. M. The first is can you bring the customer view to the table? Like, are you oriented in the end customer all the time? Like, is that your primary point of starting? Um, and their problems? So not just like, I know the customer, but like, do you really care about their problems?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, the second is can you work in ambiguity because you are the person that has to bring clarity to an unclear place in a way that moves the business forward. And the third is, um, and sorry, mom, I'm going to curse. Uh, the third is, can you just get shit done? Because if you, if you do the other two and you can't do anything about it. Yeah, then why do I need you? Like if you can't galvanize someone around a thing or galvanize a team around solving a problem that you're starting to get clarity around then. So that's, I mean that at the highest level, that's what I look for. How about you?

Speaker A: I think, I think yours. Spot on. I'm always looking like you for the view of the customer, whatever that means. Like, who is the customer? What is the, you know, like depending on what I'm hiring for, if it's in, you know, if it's a team that's building internal tools, maybe it's a little different if it's a team that's building a platform. But ultimately, do you have an understanding of customers and do you Focus on it. Right. Um. The other thing that I say a lot when I'm looking for product managers is I need someone who is mad curious. Right. Because I can't teach curiosity. I can't teach that. You'll go ask the questions that need to be asked. I can't teach you to be interested in what people say.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I need someone who. I can teach a lot of things. I can teach. I can teach scrum, I can teach ceremonies. I can teach, like, I can teach you how to journey map. I can, I can do all those things. Those are all things that are like, do this, then do this, then that'll happen. Right. But if you are fundamentally disinterested, good luck.

Speaker B: Or scared.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like, curiosity has this like, courage element and this like, I'll go ask a hard question and I'll. I will be okay with not knowing, which takes its ambiguity. And I think ambiguity and curiosity really play a lot together. We don't think of it that way because, you know, uh, a boss not to be named. One time said that we both actually have had. One time said to me, you're not very good with ambiguity. And I was like, right. My job is to disambiguate. That's what I do. So I want to get to certainty that's I'm good at that. It doesn't mean I'm not good at being in ambiguity. It means that I'm crazy curious about getting it narrower so that we can take action.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And so I think, I think those. I think yours are spot on. And then I just think the ability to. You have to. Maybe you acquire this over time. So maybe you can't look for it in a new product manager, but you gotta have fairly thick skin.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Cause you're gonna get your ass handed to you all day and people are gonna be like, why don't you do this? And why don't you all. So you have to be able to be like, yeah. Mhm, Uh-huh. And. And kind of roll with the punches.

Speaker B: Exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. You get all of the. You get all of the. The smacks and you pass the glory to your team. That's.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: That's the job.

Speaker A: It is the job. And you will spend a lot of time taking hits for things that you're like. I'm not sure that was my fault,

Speaker B: but, you know, but.

Speaker A: Okay, sorry. Right. Sorry that happened. I apologize on behalf of. I don't know the world. Right. But I'll tell. But I'm responsible. Right. Um, and when things go great, you're like, look at my team.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Right, Right. Look how shiny and beautiful and brilliant they are. Because they are. If you are successful, it is because of them.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: But you often don't get to be like, look at me.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, I mean, fortunately, I think. I do think there's some things that are innate about that. Um, I've been. That I've been able to take a lot of those, like, self psychology tests, like the insights and the disc and the Hogan and this and this and this. So one of my natural attributes, um, to your point, like, there are things you should look for in product managers is like, listen, I will ask questions. I'm going to be blunt about what's wrong. I have almost no need for personal recognition. Uh, I don't need you to think I'm cool. Um, I'm more than happy to pass all that around to the team. And I think that there's just things that make being a product manager easier. Um, and to your point, some things can't be. Some things are innate. Um, yeah. I do want to go back to your ambiguity question, though, because I think that's funny. Or the comment. Um, I think that product managers deal with ambiguity very well. We don't deal with languishing and ambiguity.

Speaker A: Yes, that's a great way to say that. It's a great way to say that. I 100% agree. I, you know, if you want me to just sit in ambiguity forever, you don't need me.

Speaker B: Exactly. Right.

Speaker A: I'm not, I'm not very good at that. So I'm gonna start asking questions and asking us to move in a direction.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Maybe the wrong one, but we're gonna move in a direction. We're gonna find out fast. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I agree with that 100%. And it. I, I think at the time I was sort of like, oh, I'm not good at with ambiguity. And I, I'm supposed to be. And then in with a little. With, you know, 10 years of distance, I'm like, yeah, it's fine. He's right. I'm not.

Speaker B: Sometimes it takes 10 years of distance to see some of those comments, like, at the moment, like, they feel hurtful. Right, Exactly. Right.

Speaker A: Rude.

Speaker B: I'm not. You, like, rend your hair and tear your clothes.

Speaker A: Right. You're not very good at this. Okay. Meanwhile, I'm really good at all these other things that no one else is good at.

Speaker B: Right. It's like one thing you're just trash at.

Speaker A: Right. It's Like, I remember that statement forever. Right.

Speaker B: I have a little list in my head that I just sort of. The bad Marilyn that lives in my head sort of sits in there, and

Speaker A: she's like, remember when they said you were. You're like, shut up. You're so mean.

Speaker B: I know it's that way.

Speaker A: She's.

Speaker B: She's trash.

Speaker A: Uh, she's not nice. Listen, tell her to talk to me.

Speaker B: I'll.

Speaker A: I'll. I'll fix it.

Speaker B: I'm. Send her over. I'm gonna send internal Marilyn over for some.

Speaker A: Thanks.

Speaker B: Tell me what she said.

Speaker A: I'll tell her off.

Speaker B: I think that, uh. Let's talk about. Let's talk about places where I think there's two topics we touched on briefly that I want to come back to. The first is, um. The first is, uh, like, what types of people make good product managers? The second we talked about just briefly was how do you turn people into product managers? So let's take those two pieces. Um, I think the one thing that I, uh, often see is people wanting to be a product manager. They will have done another job, um, whether it's engineering or TPM or whatever, for a long time, and then they're just like, you know what? I want to do product. I'm like, I'm tired of being an engineer. I want to be a product manager.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, um, I think that the biggest challenge for some of those folks. I've seen some people successfully make the transition and some people not. The biggest challenge for those sorts of folks is, um, can you love your problem without coming up with a solution?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's not your job anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah. And can you, like, agree, like, no matter where you're coming from? So with engineers coming into product, if you're marketing coming into product, if you're from sales coming in product, can you take off that hat and view the problem with, uh, a product lens, which is usually much kind of wider and deeper?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Or maybe wider than you went deep in your little vertical. Right. And so. So you have to be able to go deep in several places and not just be like, well, technically it won't work. And it's like, okay, not your job. So go ask someone else and go tell me if the marketing's gonna work. Right. Or is the growth path gonna work, you know, whatever. So, um, I think that that's. I think that's super, super important. I think that's a really well said, you know, I. What's tricky about that for me. And I mean, I know that it's shifting somewhat now. But you know, I used to say to people for years like, no, no kid is at home. Like, I want to be a product manager when I grow up. Unless your dad is one or your mom is one, no kid is like, I want to do that. And even those kids are probably like, nope. Because those people work too long. They work too many hours and they get worked up about stuff. You know, so, so in general, if you lined up 10 product managers, they would come from 10 other business parts of the business parts of the company. Not even parts of the business parts of the company. And so I think it really is back to what, uh, our whole purpose of this podcast. It's about the context.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: There's not some like these are the five things you always look for. I mean like we have a list like as having done this for the 20 plus years we've each done it. I have a list of what I'm looking for. But if I'm um. But that's my list of a couple things. And I'm hiring for a platform product manager.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Then I'm looking for a slightly different like, can you handle this? Right. Versus I'm hiring a mobile developer. Mobile, um, product manager. Or I'm hiring someone to do whatever. Then there's this little like, hm, what am I looking for?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And I think that is important.

Speaker B: I had this whole conversation recently with someone who uh, who's affiliated with a product school.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and it was about this subject specifically and how people are getting really narrow in their definition. Like, you know, we talk about T shaped people and they only want someone that's very deep in the thing they want very deep on. And I do think there's a value there, but I also think there's value in what I will call athletes.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, because, because if you like, let's just think about it from a sustainability perspective. Like you're a product leader, you're a leader of an organization. The last thing you want is a single point of failure.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So you have to be thinking about how you build that into your product management team. Because you get someone that's T shaped product manager that they only know thing a building Widget one. Um, they know it really well and they're the best widget one builder in the year in the world. Um, but they're not going to stay with you forever.

Speaker A: No. And now you're like, shit, we don't have anybody that knows that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: We need a product manager who has this skill. No, you don't you need a product manager that can learn that. Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker B: And potentially bring in, uh, another perspective that will add innovation. I don't think there's anything wrong with being deep, but I think that, um, I think that that comes with an element of risk.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think, I think you and I are both probably pretty good examples of this. Like, if I had said no, or if you had said no to things that weren't our natural inclination or what our background was in, we never would have had the experiences we've had. Right. I was a kick ass platform product manager and I always thought that that's what I would do because I was real good at it. That's how my brain works. I don't have to think about the visuals as much. And, and then the first time someone says we need you to build a mobile app and I'.

Speaker B: No,

Speaker A: we weren't asking. And I'm like, then, yes, then this is going to be terrible. Right. And it wasn't because, you know what? I know how to do product management.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. But I think, you know, we, we joke that we each sort of, we flipped roles and you were like, I'm running a platform. And I'm like, okay, I was horrible. Uh, what are you doing? Right. Who said you could do that?

Speaker B: Right. I don't want my interfaces to be APIs. I like the UI.

Speaker A: I want to look at Pict, I want to draw fingers on the, I want to draw fingers on the wireframes.

Speaker B: I had a ghost hand for years.

Speaker A: I know, I know, I love the ghost, like, oh, ghost hand. Do that again. Totally. I, But I do think like what you said, like what, people can have an inclination, they can have an expertise, they can have a space they like to play in, but you have to be, you really have to be broader. You have to be able to. Otherwise you're going to narrow your, yourself down to. This is what I do. I never could have been a chief product officer that ran, you know, something that was very heavily front end conversion related, like all of those, the uh, growth and marketing specific, if I hadn't learned how to think like that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, and say, yeah, I don't, I don't know, I don't know a lot about that, but I can learn.

Speaker B: So, um, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna turn this around to the start of the conversation and say like you are exhibiting, uh, and a really strong sense of curiosity for a product person which has been able to let you expand your horizons and, and take on some of These ambiguous things without fear or maybe with fear, but you're just walking through it.

Speaker A: Totally. And it's one of those things that I, you know, this is maybe a little too, uh. But it's, it's one of the things that I've always said that product management changed my life. It made me a better, better, you know, sister, a better friend, a better whatever. Because I learned to say, uh, I don't know, but I can figure it out. Let's, let's work on it.

Speaker B: How cool.

Speaker A: This is one of those moments where in my life people will say to me like, oh, you're so brave. And I'm like, who are you talking about?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Meanwhile, I know they're talking about me, but it's because I say yes to things.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I don't think of it as very brave. I think of it as some, um, an opportunity presented itself and I'm like, okay, let's try that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. But I learned that as a product manager.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Along the way. I think I was always curious, like, because I don't think that. I think that is part of who you are. I was always curious, but across time I got braver with my curiosity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I realized, like, I mean, most of what we do can be undone.

Speaker B: Yeah. There are very engineers, there's very few one way doors. And once you know the difference between a choice that, uh, is going to be a problem and a choice you can walk away from if you're, if your metrics are right, if you've got the right leading indicators.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Like, it becomes less risky.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, second topic.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Which is you walked into a building, you have a bunch of people that are not product managers, but all of a sudden the company's like, these people are going to be product managers.

Speaker A: Boy, I know, that's tricky. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: What do you do?

Speaker A: I mean, I think you. I think I would, uh. I mean, each person, then I've, I think this is what I've done in the past. I'm trying to think out, think out loud of how I've done it in the past with those folks. I've gone in and treated it almost like an interview and said, like, is, does this person have the, the good bones, as we would say in a house?

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Right. Are there good bones here? Right. And can this person relinquish their. Like, I am a, whatever person. I am a customer service person. I am a marketer, I am a this, I'm a that. And, and relinquish that enough to say okay, how are you going to come into this role differently? You can bring your knowledge, but you. You need to come to the table and be willing to listen and hear others. And so I think really digging in and asking those people are, uh, do they have the skills we already defined? Right. And then I think there is an element of teaching mindset. Like, I think there is an element of, okay, this is. These are. These are the. It goes to sort of rhythm of the business and processes. And what's your framework? How are you going to run your team? Teaching them those elements and being really patient with the. Like, I know I'm teaching you something you don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: And you can get this. This is just learning.

Speaker B: Yeah. None of this. None of these things are hard. Right. Um, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also like to be very upfront with where I think, you know, hey, listen, you are. You are amazing at taking a problem and snapping to a solution. That is actually not going to serve you well in this role. Like, you need to understand. You need to sort of like, be aware of when this happens and understand if you can put this down or not. Can you gift this solutioning to your team?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I've had people do it beautifully. And I have people that. I had a product manager, like, God help him, um, three years later on, I would still find him in the code fixing things.

Speaker A: No, no, don't do that.

Speaker B: Not your job anymore. Like, stop it. You're making your team miserable. They hate you. You hate them. This is not.

Speaker A: They're like, we know that he's going to get in there and do stuff because he can. Right?

Speaker B: Like, he shouldn't have been able to. Like, I think the system should not have allowed it. Like, that was just a. You know, you look at the reports and every once in, you're like, what is this guy? Why is this guy one of my top code contributors on this month?

Speaker A: Stop writing code. You have a whole other job to do. I have a friend who's a CTO at a, um, flights company here in London. And after I met it, when I met him, he was still a coding cto. And I asked in a meeting, I was like, how long are you guys gonna let that go on to his engineers? And they were. Because I was also the CTO who didn't get to write code. Cause I couldn't. And I said, how long you guys gonna let that go on? And they all sort of giggled and smirked. And he was like, don't help. And I was like, you need to get out of the code. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh.

Speaker A: And he was like, whatever. So then the next time we had a meeting face, I was like, you still coding? He's like, no, they turned off my access.

Speaker B: They turned off your access?

Speaker A: Like, good. He's like, how long did it take? He's like, six more months. But eventually they were like, you got to get out of the code. So anymore, it's not your job. Right. And it's, you know, it's. It's just there are so many things, you know, having been. I moved into product management after being an accountant at the same company, and there were moments when I was like, let me. Let me get in there.

Speaker B: And there was.

Speaker A: The team was like, you're not the assistant controller. And I was like, right, anyway, I'll be over here. Not looking at the books, right? Not saying, aren't you guys late? Isn't the SEC filing supposed to happen tonight? Right. Shut up.

Speaker B: I love it. I think the last thing, like, I think the one thing. The one thing that, um. When you're. When you're changing someone's role.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, it's often beneficial to change their role. And I'm gonna. I'll tell you what I mean. Um, because if you take someone and you give them a new job title and you give them a couple months of telling them they need to act differently, but you don't change the chair they sit in or the team they work with, there's going to be a lot of organizational friction that is not going to want those people to be, do or act differently.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: So you're setting up for frustration.

Speaker A: Totally. The, uh, best product manager I ever transitioned. 2. I have two that I think. Well, one of them, I didn't transition. He came into that role. But the best product manager that I ever transitioned out of one role into another at the company, he worked in merchant support. He was a manager. Merchant support. And he moved into the merchant domain, which was where my team sat. And it would have been really easy to put him in, like, everything tied to the support area. And, man, we didn't do that. We put him with a team that was very fundamental to what we do. Very much about kind of how, like, how the merchants manage their finances and all of that. We stuck him in there. He understood it because he had been in the merchant support space where merchants would call about that thing. But we didn't just set him in the seat that was the most natural seat. He moved over and, uh, he wrestled with the beginning. But then once he started to run. He was great.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But it was very purposeful. And when I first did it, uh, my boss at the time was like, wouldn't it just make sense to put him over here? And I was like, sure. And also, he'll never stop doing that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I need to need him to do something else if he's going to be a product manager. Yeah. If I'm just changing his title and having him do the same job, that's not a good use of my resources and it's not going to work for my team.

Speaker B: You're not going to make him ultimately successful. So I think that, like, my, my thesis or my, my, my hypothesis when I go into situations like this is. It's probably going to be uncomfortable for everybody for three, six months, easy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but I want to see people proud of what they're doing. I want to see them talking about customer wins with their team. I want to see them changing their LinkedIn profile to add details. Like, I want to see all of those indicators that they're thriving in their craft.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if you leave them doing their old job, they're not going to thrive in the new craft.

Speaker A: Yeah. 100%. No, I think, I think that's so, so true. And it. They never really get to put on the mantle of I'm a product manager if they haven't been through that, that hard transition. I mean, I did that transition out of accounting into a product role. And I was sometimes like. And this was in, like, 23 years ago when it was still kind of new, and I was like, 20, I guess, 20, 24 years ago. Um, and, uh, but it was hard and there were times when I was like, I don't know if I can do this, but I did marketing. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's also, I mean, this is something that we'll talk about in another podcast, but it also, I think what we're seeing, because people aren't thinking about product management as this broadcast craft that you have to learn. We're seeing job families break off and be created that are like, I'm going to be a growth product manager, and I'm going to be a. This product manager, and I'm going to. I mean, there are something like 15 different types of product managers, which. Okay, but can you move from one spot to another?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's where this kind of craft, like, what is the overarching thing. You are product manager.

Speaker B: So, so funny because, uh, I sit on the Product Management Council for general Assembly. Um, and uh, work across a lot of really brilliant product leaders. Yeah. Um, to help General assembly sort of like, be their little board of directors on their product teaching. Um, and we, at one stage a couple years ago, came out with a framework, like a career progression framework, and we really wrestled with the same thing. Like, is this really different? Is it not different? We came down to something relatively simple.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I. I believe that the skills are transferable.

Speaker A: Like, yeah.

Speaker B: If. If you're. And, uh, and we will talk about this soon, but if you're a growth product manager, your core competencies are still the same as if you're.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: A platform product manager. I'm. I'm gonna. I, like, kind of, like, tweaked my head on that one because I think there's.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And, uh, m. Like, it. It definitely takes a very special person to. To have a product where your interfaces are APIs and your customers or other machines. Um, not my favorite space. If you like that, talk to Leah, not me. Uh, I can do it. I can draw boxes on whiteboards. Now, I know enough to be dangerous, but I do prefer my ghost hands, thank you very much. Um, but I do think that some of the core competencies are the same. I don't think everything can be taught. Again, I think if you're platform product managers are this sort of like, weird, special unicorn. Um, exactly. Right.

Speaker A: I mean, I didn't even know I was one till I was right. It was one of those. And now this is what I'm good at. So. Yeah. Yeah. And so we will. Just for those of you watching, we will have a time when we talk to growth product managers. We have a growth product manager we're going to bring in and talk to. And we are going to talk to somebody that's a technical or platform product manager, because while I can cover it, I haven't done it in a while. And so I think having somebody come in, talk to us about, like, what's special about you. Right.

Speaker B: Um, plus, isn't it kind of fun to have, like, people on with us? Like, this is awesome. Like, I love talking to you. This is, like, the highlight of my. My week. Um, but, uh, we should torture some other people, too.

Speaker A: Exactly. So if you want to be tortured, call us. We want to hang out with you. One last question for you. I'm trying to think of my answer as I'm asking you so. Because I know you're going to say, what about you, Leanne? I'm going to be like, I don't know. I didn't have an answer when I asked what's your, what's like the interview question that you always ask a product manager.

Speaker B: Oh, brutal. Uh, I mean, I'll tell you the question. The question that I ask everybody that's unrelated to product management but usually gives me a pretty good answer is, what do you think this job is and why do you want it?

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Like why. Why is this job better than your last job? Um, and that usually gives me a pretty good indication of what they think about the company, what they think about the job, what they think about their superpower is like, why are. Like, why do you even want to come and do this? It's a big change to leave a job and go to somewhere else. Ah. Coming from someone that likes to switch industries and like to run after problems.

Speaker A: Yeah, me too.

Speaker B: Um, but, uh, you know, why is this the problem you want to solve? And that tells you if they're customer centric, it tells you if they're problem centric. It tells you if they're running from something. Um, how about you, Pat?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I will say on that topic, my little tiny bit of free coaching advice is when that question is asked, whether it's asked the way you asked it, or whether it's tell me about yourself or why do you want to work here? Whatever that question is, you need to come with a brief answer and then ask me where we want to. Where you want to go.

Speaker B: Oh, nice.

Speaker A: I do not want. If someone answers that question for 10 minutes, I'm out. Yeah, it's. They have. They better have a hell of a 10 minute story if you want to keep me entertained for 10 minutes. Not that it's about entertaining me, but if you don't know how to edit and just. And help us go where the conversation needs to go, like it tells me that you're just 10, those folks tend to just ramble.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I want a concise answer to the question I asked. Right. It is not go through your whole resume to prove why you should be here. It's tell me what you want to do here.

Speaker B: Yeah, Right.

Speaker A: When you ask that question or tell me about yourself, not tell me about your cv, I saw it. That's why you're here. Right. Tell me about yourself is a different question.

Speaker B: So I will tell you. Like, that's one of the questions I hate the most is like, you know, walk me through your career path. Lady, I am old.

Speaker A: Where did you like to start? When I was 18, um, I started

Speaker B: dipping fries at McDonald's at 15.

Speaker A: Take me to right that was my first job.

Speaker B: Is that where we want to start? No.

Speaker A: Is that what we want to do?

Speaker B: What you want to know is, like, what are your core skills? Do they apply here? Like, um, ask a good question. Like, don't ask stupid questions.

Speaker A: I totally agree. My question that I love to ask is, you know, what was the last thing you did that changed the customer's experience or life?

Speaker B: Oh, I love that.

Speaker A: And it. Matt, it doesn't matter where, what angle you're coming at, technical or not technical, whatever something you did, if you've been successful at being a product manager, should have changed something for someone. Right.

Speaker B: I like that.

Speaker A: And they. If they are like, oh, usually what happens. This is why I love it. This is also what I love about coaching. They will light up.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If they don't, then they're either not telling me the truth or they don't love what they do. Most product managers, when they get to talk about the last thing they did, they get like. Like, they start buzzing. Right. And I want to see the buzz. That's because I'm interested in that person.

Speaker B: I love that. Wait, so do we have video comments on any of our platforms, or is this all text? Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh. Oh, video comments. Um, that's a good question. I don't think so. Now that you've said that, we should

Speaker B: do that, we should find a way to ask everybody that listens that question, what is the last thing you did for the customer?

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome.

Speaker B: Tell us your story. There's so much around product management, again, that is theory and frameworks. We're talking about the practicalities of taking our craft and applying it to humans who are completely irrational. Um, so everybody out there in product land, like, yes, tell us your story. Find a way to tell us in a video, even if you have to put it on YouTube and send us a link.

Speaker A: Like, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can send us a link and I can pop it on our. We can pop it on the website, whatever. We can put in the comments. That way, people probably could send a video on LinkedIn. Right. Can, um, you add a video. I think you can add a video on LinkedIn. So you could probably do that there. I don't know about any of the others, but.

Speaker B: Or you can add a video and tag us.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Add a video and be like, I'm answering this question and. And let us know, because I would love to hear answers to that, because nothing excites me more than hearing product manager talk about what they've done. Yeah, that's. That's the whole fun of being a leader of product managers. They get the thing, they get excited about. So very cool. All right, well, we will talk more about specific job families in the future. Um, if folks have questions about like, you know what, like what when have we, you know, questions about hiring, how we've hired, success, you know, uh, us being interviewed, those kinds of questions. Feel free to ping the questions over to us. There's even a question space in our, on our website. You can just go in and you can suggest topics. You can give us um, answers to questions we've asked here or um, or tell us something that you want us to share with you and at some point we'll bring questions together and have a session where we just answer questions.

Speaker B: Q and A.

Speaker A: Awesome. Uh, all right, well then I will see you next time by uh, Sam.