Death Row Humanist Chaplain - Ministering Without a Messiah w/ D.S. Moss | Ep.30

Speaker A: Guys, welcome back to another episode of Path of Purpose. Today I sat down with DS Moss, who is a humanist chaplain. New York Times wrote about him as the atheist chaplain who sat down with somebody on an inmate on death row. And in this conversation we talk about the future of spiritual care, we talk about his experiences as a chaplain, and we also talk about his upbringing in uh, Christianity, as well as his current thoughts about Jesus. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode and uh, I'll see you uh, in there. All right, so Devin and I, for the listeners, we were just talking about, uh, Devin's experience of being the spiritual advisor. Is uh, that the correct term?

Speaker B: Spiritual care advisor?

Speaker A: Yeah, spiritual care advisor for the inmate on death row. This was last year. Um, and just, just some context for the listeners. We were talking about how Devin had spent, uh, over, had over a hundred conversations with this individual. Um, and yeah, so yeah, Devin, what was your, I guess what was your. Yeah, what was your kind of big takeaway from having cultivated and spending that much time with the inmate?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think maybe to take a step backwards and uh, add a little bit more context to spiritual care in general and what that is. And I like to frame it in a sense of like a embodied consciousness. So obviously a, a medical doctor, uh, is expertise is in, in healing our bodies. Right. And then psychiatrists, therapists, psychologists, other sores, other types of psychic healers work on the cognitive and emotional part of this, what I like to think of it as a three part system. And then that leaves the third part, which is the spiritual part. And it is an area in which uh, as far as a practice compared to the others too, gets left behind. And so what the spiritual care provider does is help heal that spiritual part of all of us. Whether or not you believe that there's a spirit or a soul that transcends the body when we die. I think that is an unimportant, um, topic when it comes to spiritual care. Uh, the way I see spirituality or one spirituality is the animating life force that connects us to each other, that connects us to the, the ground, the grounding earth and nature and our place within the cosmos and then connects us to something higher. And, and that can be interpreted by the user, right? Whether that's God, whether that is the cosmos or whether that is meaning. So that that is what, that's what spiritual care is. And particularly as with the other two, we only tend to need it when we're in a vulnerable state. Like we don't go see the medical doctor when we're Perfectly fine unless we have our annual checkups. Right. So as it pertains to the incarcerated in Philip Hancock in particular, the role of a chaplain, which is the spiritual care advisor, the role of the chaplain, uh, is to be with them in the execution chamber as they are executed, as they are state sanctioned murdered. And typically the role of the chaplain has been to essentially, since it is a very Christian term in a Christian role, at least that's where history is rooted, is really just to save their soul. So you go in the execution and you're there to be there in case they want to confess something. And then you try to pave the ways as best you can to get them up to heaven. Right. That's sort of the typical role historically of the chaplain. But I am not a Christian and I'm certainly not about converting people, particularly on their deathbed. And so uh, that former role of a chaplain only comes in like three days prior to the execution. So they're only meeting the person that they're the spiritual care advisor three days before they're going to be in the room with them for the most important and vulnerable part of their life. And it's just not enough. Um, because that also what that does is that indexes that relationship on the chaplain and it doesn't allow for any nuance or personality or bond to form between the person that you are serving as a caretaker. And so now contrasted to what I did, I spent uh, 10 months, over 10 months with Phil, Philip Hancock. And that is extreme and probably not very common that a spiritual care advisor spends that much time. And I was available for him with him almost every day for, for phone calls. But what that did allow all of that time, it did allow us to create a relationship in which I knew him, I knew what he wanted, I knew as best I can what he was going through. And I could show up in the best way possible for him because of the, because of the time spent. And so the big thing that sort of to wrap this up and hopefully nice as bubbles I can create is that uh, you have to know the person. It's like a doctor going into surgery without really looking at the X rays to do any good, uh, and make it about the other person. A relationship needs to have been built.

Speaker A: Definitely. So those 10 months, was that the beginning of when Philip Hancock knew that he was going to be state sanctioned, uh, getting the death sentence?

Speaker B: No, I mean he, he knew at time of sentencing. So he was on death row for 20 years. So he, so there was always a, a death date. On his calendar. And then, and that date would move.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think he had at least six that I'm aware of. M. Execution dates.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Imagine, uh, living. Yeah. You think with that information too, that it would be more common that chaplains or spiritual care advisors would be spending more time with the individual. Because like, I, I, I think about like my experience of like working with dying people. You're not, you're not, you don't just show up like three days before, like with your suitcase and like, okay, let's go, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, yeah, that's, that's uh, I think that's really, I, I feel like that's under, that population is underserved spiritually.

Speaker B: I would agree. In the sense that. Of fulfilling a role of spiritual care. I do think m, most state prison systems, and probably the federal as well, do have resources for those that want to practice spirituality. But then again, it always comes down to the name of that game is conversion. And, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I think there's a difference between, um, becoming religious or a, a chaplain or a clergy representative being there for spiritual support versus, hey, come into the flock.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I, and I think typically in, in, in prison systems, at least in America, it is the latter. It is the come into the flock.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's like, do this instead of let me just be with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would. And that's a very general statement. There's a lot of, there's a lot of great people doing great work, um, within the systems. And typically those are all volunteers too. And so that's another thing to keep in mind too, is that these, these things aren't resourced.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. The, the budgets come in and, and no one cares whether or not someone that's incarcerated has spiritual care. Mhm. Right. That's, that's like, that's like 147th on the, on the list of what, what society thinks that they deserve.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think it brings up an interesting question too of why do, yeah. Why should they have spiritual care? Why should they have access to spiritual care?

Speaker B: Because they are human.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it, and it is, and it is the fact that they are incarcerated and they have been deemed by society justly or not, to be segregated, incarcerated, out of sight, out of mind. Those are our fellow brothers and sisters that we need, um, to give the most spiritual care for. Because regardless of what one believes in, what happens after we die, whether it's reincarnation, whether it's heaven or hell, um, or nothingness. I think we owe it to humanity

Speaker A: to.

Speaker B: Mhm. Help those. Whether it's in the moment, whether it

Speaker A: is

Speaker B: a ripple effect that happens that permeates back into society. Because that's exactly what happens right. When we condemn violence or not condemn violence, when we segregate violence, which I'm not against. But when we, but when we throw away the key and then do unto them what they did into society, what that does, it creates a ripple effect exponentially that goes back into society. So we're not solving shit by, by executing people, we're actually doing the opposite. We're, we're reinvigorating society with even more violence. And so the antidote to that, the antidote is for less violence in society, is caretaking, is spiritual care, is psychological care. Because these, you know, these. There is a percentage of people that are monsters that are born with some sort of psychosis in which they are incredibly violent, um, and should be segregated in that way. M. But the other 98%, the other 95% are children that have been broken. And so we need to care for that. And so I think we owe it to that broken child which is now segregated and incarcerated from society. We owe it to that child. We owe it to the other children out there to provide spiritual care.

Speaker A: Mhm. And it, what I'm hearing too is that ah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that there's an inherent value behind each individual because they're human being 100%. Yeah.

Speaker B: That's, that's the only way we get out of this. Right. Like uh, let's look at the state of the world right now and just if we just sort of turned up the dial, 2% more humanity, um, what that could do. Yeah. Inherently every person.

Speaker A: Yeah. So do you see, what do you see the future of this work? Like where do you see, where do you see it moving towards

Speaker B: spiritual care specifically or spiritual care in the prison system? I, I see it going my sense and other people that I'm close with and have this sense too. And we all could just be in a bubble and it all could be confirmation bias, but it does feel like there is a spiritual reckoning or revolution that is underway. And specifically people are searching. There's that internal flame that we all know whether some, it's consciousness, some call it the divine spark, whatever that is. There is a thing that people are yearning for, a path of exploration and, and that, that lies outside of spirit, that lies outside of, of religion. And currently in America religion has been so m. Intertwined with politics, that there's a, there's a large population of American citizens that, that want a new and better way to, to practice, uh, their spirituality, to live within their spirit. And, and so I think spiritual care, the future of it, in maybe baby steps, is to help people get them on their, their path and show them the way and then also to make it part of common society. I mean, even at hospitals, chaplains are the least resourced provider. And so to make it, to make it common knowledge and to have people want like I, whether I am in the hospital because both my legs are broken or whether I'm in the hospital because I am actively dying, that I also should, uh, be getting spiritual care as well or want spiritual care.

Speaker A: I think society could definitely benefit from that. And especially people, uh, I feel like almost, yes, definitely the people who are in that role of needing the care, but also the people who are serving because it's, it's almost like symbiotic in that way where it's, it's, it's not just serving the person who's, who needs the care, but it's also this like co creative thing that is uniting us in a way 100%.

Speaker B: They are. Yeah, it's, it's connective threads.

Speaker A: Yeah. So in terms of, in terms of your journey, you're the last we spoke. You're also, you're working on a new book.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Could we talk about that?

Speaker B: Sure. I just, Yeah, I just clinched. Um. Yeah, let's talk about it.

Speaker A: Cool. What is, what's the, what's the timeline on it? Um, what's, what's it about? How can people find.

Speaker B: Will be out, uh, probably the summer of 2026. The working title of it right now is Something to believe in. A Skeptics guide for finding your big Belief. Uh, published by Harper One. And it's about, it's about my journey from going from death podcast host to, you know, die hard skeptic to humanist chaplain to chaplain at Bellevue Hospital during the pandemic, and then, uh, chaplain to Philip Hancock on death row. So it's part memoir and part guidebook that hopefully through my story, people can find their path or be nudged on their path to their own spiritual journey.

Speaker A: So what would you say are for people looking for people who are looking forward to reading your book? What are like, could you provide them with like a teaser of, hey, this is, this is like a big theme of somebody who's searching and who's skeptical?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think one of the, one of the major things throughout the book is the idea that we can and we must hold two opposing forces at the same time. And so to take your example of I am a skeptic, I like to scrutinize everything. There is a part of me that's a very important part of me that is run by my rational brain.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That's a real thing. Um, and also in the opposite hand is a polar. It is someone that wants to get lost in the mystery and in the awe, uh, and the wonder of us being alive. It is a miracle. And so I think, and I do believe, do believe that there is this either divine flame or this spark, this thing that is in us, that does connect us to something higher.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So that's a major thing. Is, is, is in, in many instances we have to, we have to recognize that we, that it's, that it's a. Both. And.

Speaker A: M. Yeah.

Speaker B: And, and, and, and they don't have to, they don't have to compete. And I think if you sit with, with both of them long enough, they can be complementary. But, but what one cannot do is using one dominant side.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: To then look at the other side. So for example, my rational skeptic side of me, which I love, I can't use that framework to then examine the mystery of spirituality. Nor M. Can I use that rational brain to then attempt to prove that spirituality. So that spirituality, if it's inevitable, if it's ineffable, you, you have to leave it mysterious. M. You can't say these are the mysterious things we don't know and then use the scientific method or use our rational brain then to, then to uh, try to rationalize spirituality. So you have, you have them, you have them, you have to let them be their own centers of gravity. But uh, then, but then they can, but then they can eventually coalesce and that can be applied to many things in, in life.

Speaker A: Yeah. So a question that comes up for me too then is do you believe that we all get to a certain point where we come to this fork in the road where there is something that we are confronting that is unexplainable?

Speaker B: Uh, yes. I think we're born with it. I think it hits us for the first time when we're like three and then that's where the narratives come from.

Speaker A: M. Right. All of which narratives.

Speaker B: Well, so many narratives like our, our made up world is, is all. And, and the, the biggest, the biggest elephant in the room is mortality is our death. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And so yeah. What happens, what happens after death? Is the big, uh, biggest narrative of them all. Yeah, people, people generally are really, really uncomfortable with saying, I don't know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And in addition to that, something like, I don't know, saying like this right now, this moment, this life, this breath is all that matters.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is something that is really uncomfortable about acknowledging what is unknown. And like, I think about in my own life, like, I experienced that once when my dad passed away and I was, I was thinking about like, what life would be like without him, you know, and uh, I feel like a part of me acknowledged that myself. Of like, okay, what would this be like for me if I was gone? But I feel like even like that was three years ago and now I don't think about my own mortality every single day, you know? So I think it's also, it's also like a constant reminder too, of like, how are we, how are we remembering that? And like, how are we living? And I think it is really uncomfortable to acknowledge that. And I think a lot of the times, I'm curious what you've seen too, in your work and in your experience, but in my work, I've noticed a lot of the times it takes a really either tragic or intense experience for somebody to, to acknowledge that for the first time,

Speaker B: 100%. Unless. Unless they share a common existential crisis, uh, as me and, and rightfully so. Right. Like, I don't think we would evolve very efficiently as a species if.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We thought about death too much.

Speaker A: You said something really interesting. So I, Because I think that's, I think that's, uh, I think that's rare and I think it's, it's rare that an individual has. What you just said, what you said. A, A existential crisis. No, but you said something before it too. Like, uh,

Speaker B: Give me another hint. What were we.

Speaker A: Uh, it was like. It was something along the lines of like an existential crisis. But you think about it a lot without having like a certain specific, like, experience that led you to thinking about it a lot.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, so. So I.

Speaker A: My path, like a predisposition almost.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I do, I do think that there are. And I don't know what makes up this quality, but I do think there are a club among us that are seekers and that are searchers and that want to look the gift horse in the mouth and they want to face those hard questions and they, and they want to explore meaning and, and I, I don't think anybody that sincerely or authentically goes on their own journey and is exploring Purpose or meaning goes very far without running smack dab into the wall of their mortality.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah. Uh, it sounds like you're also like describing like a certain archetype of people.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So why, why do you think that, why do you think you are that way?

Speaker B: I don't know. Because nobody else in my family is. I don't, I don't, I don't know where it comes from. I, I think I've always had it. Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. And I wonder what, like, I wonder if there is a percentage. This is just sort of waxing off the top of my head. Like, is it. What do you think, like 30% of people are searchers?

Speaker A: I have, I have no idea. I'm the wrong person to ask.

Speaker B: So. But so, so you, you then would classify yourself as, as something very significant happened, which.

Speaker A: Uh. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: The death of your father.

Speaker A: Yes. I, I would say for me, what kind of was the catalyst for me was this almost like ego shattering or not? Ego shot. I feel like that's, that implies that I don't have an ego. But this kind of like self shot. Yeah, this like self construct shattering, um, event, you know, my life, like at the time I was, I was 20, I was 21, I was the president of my fraternity in college. I spent like, all my nights were pretty much spent like going out and partying and chasing girls. And during the day I was, uh, a business student and my dream was to be a hedge fund manager. And when my, when my dad got, when my dad got sick, it almost that experience like, forced me to reconcile all these emotions that I did not have the tools to be able to process. And because like, prior to that point, if I ever felt something, I was like, okay, just shove it down, keep going, stay busy. But like, in the case of intense grief, it. That version of an individual is not equipped to process or to face grief. And so for me, that, that experience really triggered that search because after that I was like, okay, first, how can I live a life that is worth living after this happening? That was like my first question, like, how do I just survive? And, and then, and then my question started to change to how do I, how can I live a life that's fulfilling after this? And how can I live a life that honors this and how can I make peace with this? So I, I felt like for me, who knows, like if. If that never happened, I probably would have been going down that rabbit hole of living life the same way, you know, And God knows What I'd be doing right now, it wouldn't be sitting on this podcast and talking, having these conversations. So. But I think it's interesting in your. Sort of, in your scenario that you describe yourself as kind of always having that curiosity.

Speaker B: Yes, but I don't want to misrepresent my past either. The way you described yourself. I wasn't in a fraternity, but I joined the Marine Corps and went out every night and chased the ladies. I'm surprised that I made it out of my 20s alive.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I. I don't know. And maybe, maybe there was something that's just not coming to me that happened, that turned on this, turned on the switch. But, but hearing you describe it, I would be so bold and confident to say is that at a certain point it would have turned on for you. Regardless. I would say that you inherently, uh, from my brief time talking with you, you're a searcher too. And, um, and have come to it earlier than, than I did.

Speaker A: M. So maybe then, so maybe then this is something that, that is. Would you say maybe? Yeah, maybe this is something we all inherently have within us.

Speaker B: I mean, I certainly hope so. I. I hope it's not 30%. I hope it's 100.

Speaker A: Except for those. Maybe the 2% that you said that are in extreme psychosis, that are violent schizophrenics. Yeah. Yeah. I. Go ahead. Were you gonna say something?

Speaker B: Well, I just sort of. I was just going to tie it back to the question you asked, like what. What is the spirit? The future of spiritual care? And I would say it's, uh, My goal in that at least is to just somehow somebody hears something that I said or read something that I did, and then that is some instigator of their inherent spark or uncovers the, the searcher version of themselves. Because that's also the important fact or something that, that's also in the book that I feel very strongly about is that one's spiritual journey is their own spiritual journey.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Gurus, pastors, get out of the way. It is, it's Gnostic. Right. This is, it's. It's a journey that's, that's within us. Our teachers and guides and gurus and pastors can, can help us along the way. Yeah, but, but arts, our connection to our spirit is our own and doesn't need a middleman.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think, um, I think a teacher can help us, but they can't like walk for you, you know, they can't take the steps for you or

Speaker B: or tell you what steps to walk.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see that happen a lot when someone who's in that position of spiritual authority and they can misuse that power and, and then you have, I don't know, there's probably a word for that, like spiritual trauma or something like that, but like something that can stunt you from your own journey, you know. And I, uh, like I, I've seen that a lot of where, where people associate what, what somebody said to them as. Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say, like, for instance, in my case, like I, I've seen people that have, have gotten turned off from pursuing a relationship with Jesus because they had for instance, like a pastor that was like, that was abusive and they were like, this person is a representation of Jesus. So now I don't want to pursue a relationship of Jesus because of that. And I'm actually, I'm really curious to get into this too, of like, I saw that in the article too that you, uh, you grew up in Assemblies of God, correct? Was it a church or.

Speaker B: I did, yeah.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: It's Pentecostal.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Pentecostal, Evangelical. The, the original. So speaking in tongues. We didn't, we didn't. This is an Idaho, so we didn't have snake handlers, but there was a lot of speaking of tongues. And in particular, one of my memories talk about spiritual trauma is the rapture was very popular in the 1980s. And so, yeah, my fear as a five year old was being sucked up into the sky. And so talking about relationships with, with God or with Jesus, like Jesus was the boogeyman for me, man. Like, I would check underneath my bed for sandals, you know, like, check the closet. Is Jesus hiding there trying to suck you up in the sky? I just wanted to make mud pies and ride my bike, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's honestly, it's like I believe that that is like the devil at play doing that, you know, like almost like a wolf in sheep's clothing of deterring an innocent child away from, from a relationship with God. It's like you have. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think shame on, shame on that person for being an awful representation of what it means to be a Christian, you know? And I mean, I have like a little bit, I uh, mean a much different relationship with this. Like I grew up Jewish. I grew up Jewish and not believing in God. And like in my family, like Jesus was always like a cliche, you know, like, oh, like there's people over there like talking about Jesus, like just, it's just like a buzzword, you know? And for me, like, for, for my, for my, for my search and my journey after losing my dad and searching, I, I started this master's, uh, program, um, after doing psychedelics a bunch of times and that, that didn't work for me, but started this master's program in consciousness studies and spirituality. And a big part of the program was looking at different spiritual traditions through the lens of Western psychology. And we would read like, Buddhist texts and Hindu texts. And for some reason, like, Jesus kept coming up and like, the Hindus would refer to him as a yogi and the Buddhists would refer to him as an incarnation of Buddha. And I was like, like, why is this? Like, why is just as like a. Through a curious kind of like, intellectual perspective, I was like, why? Like, why is that? And, uh, so I guess that's kind of where like, my curiosity, um, came from. Like, why is it that different traditions hold this person in a high regard when there aren't figures like that in other traditions? And yeah, so for me, that was kind of my curiosity. So, uh, I'm curious too, from, from your perspective. Okay, so you're five. You're five years old. You have this, if I may, traumatizing experience at this, or experiences with, um, this pastor or pastors at this church. Like, what did the next few years look like? Like, what did your relationship with the divine look like?

Speaker B: I wouldn't even describe it as relationship with the divine because it was. I don't know if. One, that's not how it was framed. Two, I, I don't know if a five year old, for example, operates or feels in that language. Probably a better and more authentic language. But. So in addition to like being in the Assemblies of God church, my brother and I were also schooled. So we were homeschooled within the church. Um, and it was called the PACE program. We'd work on workbooks. And I always thought that PACE just meant that we would go at our own pace, because that's what we did. But PACE is an acronym that stands for Progressive American Christian Education. And so we had an American flag on our desk, and we had a Christian flag on our desk. And it was an indoctrination in a certain dogma. And so the idea of a relationship or divinity was, was kind of, at least from my memory, at least is. Is. Was extracted from that. It was all about morals and ethics and how we should live as a very specific type of human in this very specific type of, uh, way of seeing the world.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so it wasn't. So religion to me was, was very severed to the idea of not only spirituality but a relationship with, with the divine. Wow.

Speaker A: Uh, so did this, did this sort of, how did this play out as you got into high school and in your early twenties?

Speaker B: It was, I, I became like, as a teenager, I became a, an agnostic.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Only because that was just the easiest way out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like in my family, like if you were to say you didn't believe, let alone say the word atheist, that was tantamount to going out drinking with Satan. Right. So that was like a non starter.

Speaker A: How dare you say that.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, that word is important, the A word, um, which we can get into in a minute. So I, So agnostic was just a way to avoid the conversation.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, which I would venture to say that's how many people use that term. Agnostic.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I don't know. Let's talk about something else.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay.

Speaker B: Um, but then when I joined the, the Marine Corps, uh, I went to Catholic confirmation classes. I wanted to believe. I mean, I still want to believe. Um, not what I want to believe is far different now than it was back then. And then, and then I, you know, a Catholic just wasn't for me. But on my dog tags it said Roman Catholic because it just looked, it looked cool to say Roman Catholic. And then I tried, I tried being a Southern Baptist. That wasn't for me. I tried. When I, then I moved to Austin in college, I tried. It wasn't you, you, but it was, it was so non denominational, it was, it was almost too neutral. And then I just, and then I just stopped, I think then I claimed agnostic. And then it wasn't a part of my life at all. Mhm. It didn't need to be, it didn't have to be. And um, occasionally maybe I would go to a mass or something just on a holiday just for tradition's sake or a wedding or funeral. And then it wasn't until I started the podcast and poking my nose into all things death that it started to come up again.

Speaker A: Wow. So the, uh, so was there like a, it seems like there was like a dormant period that spirituality, or at least it seems like at least Christianity wasn't a part of your life was. Would you say that that was the same with spirituality?

Speaker B: I, I, this occurred to me. I, I started actually meditating when I, so I've been meditating for about 20 years. So I, so I did have a meditation practice. Um, but I, but I didn't pursue Buddhism as an area of study, it was, it was more. Yeah, it was more grounding in connection, but I, but I, I guess it wasn't dormant. Dormant. Yeah, because meditating is, is right. High value spiritual practice.

Speaker A: Definitely. So, so was there like, what was like the gap between, okay, I'm done looking at churches versus now. Okay, now I'm like meditating regularly probably a decade. Okay. And in there, was there an experience that pushed you to, to want to meditate more?

Speaker B: I, I still think it is this inherent flame or like I'm also a very curious person and I let my curiosity lead the way. And so I think I was a searcher then and any way that I could tap into a greater consciousness. Yeah, uh, I would do so. It was, I would say maybe that my spiritual practice back then was, was rooted in curiosity.

Speaker A: Well, I, I think it's really admirable how resilient your spirit is and having gone through what you've gone through when you're a young kid and still searching, you know, still searching for the truth and not letting that experience deter you from searching for the truth. And so yeah, I guess the question, and I'm curious if this would be in your book or not, but I guess what would you sort of say to somebody who feels like, okay, I had this upbringing, whether it was like Christian or Catholic or Hindu or whatever, and they had an experience where they're like, all right, screw this, I'm never doing anything again. What, what would you, I guess words of encouragement for somebody who had gone through something similar and now is not searching at either. Not searching at all or they're not, they're not hungry. They're not as hungry.

Speaker B: Well, you certainly can't lead a horse to water. I was thinking of a good religious spin to uh, use on that. But I would also say that. Scrutinize yourself if in the sense that, see it, uh, see how dormant that really is.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Silence is the best way. Silence is the best thermometer of that spark.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Go on a meditation retreat, silent meditation retreat. Perhaps if you, you're curious to see if you have that spark. Perhaps a plant medicine journey can um, be a way to dust that off. It's certainly, I want to be very clear. It's certainly not all the work that needs to be done. It is only a knocking on the door. But just, but just. I think a person would have to feel it in themselves and think through this idea of an embodied consciousness. Feel your body, be in your body, rest your mind, feel all the emotions and see if it feels like there's still something that is missing, connecting, uh, you as an embodied being, uh, rooted on, on the planet. And if it does, it feels like there's. What is that?

Speaker A: Yeah, just.

Speaker B: And then just begin to follow the bread. Breadcrumbs, no matter how far they are apart or no matter how small they are, until. And that's it, right? That's it. It's like the old cliche, the destination does not matter. You don't have to be able to name it. You don't have to have the book, the canonical volumes on your shelves. You just got to follow breadcrumbs in a way that's authentic to you.

Speaker A: Yeah, seems. I really like what you said too about the, uh, silence and just getting. Whether it's into nature or just getting quiet time. I think there's, especially our society now, so much of like, instant gratification and constant noise and it's, it's hard to, it's hard to listen to that when you're just going from thing to thing and, and there's no space for it to grow.

Speaker B: 100 I. I think on any spiritual journey, no matter who the antagonist is, there is an antagonist. Yeah, always. And so the world in which we live, there is immense competition for our attention and antagonistic methods are constantly at play, trying to keep us sedated and trying to keep us dormant.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Can we talk about Jesus?

Speaker B: Let's talk about Jesus.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: What?

Speaker A: I guess, yeah. My first question is what? Uh, like what do you believe to be true about Jesus?

Speaker B: In reference to what you had mentioned earlier? I think of Jesus very much in the sense of the Buddha.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And other historical teachers. I would even go far to say as prophet, I think of Jesus in a few different ways. I resonate and relate much more to the Gnostic Christians than I do of the Roman Catholics. Anytime I even get a whiff of the grasping hands of humans, um, I take everything with a grain of salt where the skepticism comes in.

Speaker A: What's Gnostic mean? Gnostic. Human Gnostic Christians.

Speaker B: So the Gnostics are the OG Christians. They're the original Christians. And, and they have a more esoteric Gnostic version of Christ. And so Gnostic means direct connection with the divine.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So that's why I say, like, I used to use the word agnostic as sort of the shrug. I don't know. But now I am very Gnostic. I couldn't get more Gnostic because I. Because I think that it is the relationship with a person and the divine. And so the Gnostics had a, I almost called it a pyramid scheme. It's not what I mean. It is a sequential learning of the Gnostic scriptures through which, um, Jesus was the ultimate teacher in a way that included philosophy and again paganism and the esoterics and alchemy and sort of old all world knowledge. And so that resonates with me as Jesus being a teacher in that regard and an enlightened one through which we can determine how we should act, how we should participate in community. We should be more Jesus like, as we should be more Buddha like. And so that's how I see Jesus. The mythology of it. I see just as that mythology. Easter, we just crossed Easter Sunday. I don't believe that story to be true. Um, I believe probably it's accurate that Jesus was crucified or a Jesus like person was crucified. I don't believe that he was resurrected. I don't believe he's going to come back again. But I also don't, I think that's unimportant in the sense that if you're not living and acting as though he did, you've missed the point of the story. And so, um, I feel the same way about the Buddha. Right. I don't know, nor do I care if he really existed. And in the way that um, he is elevated above humanity as a savior. Saviors in the sense that they have very articulately described the way we should be moving in the world. Mhm. Saving us from ourselves in a way of, of praxis.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So this, the stories, the, the magical thinking of it, I, I, I, I find very unimportant and it does not matter to me. Um, and so I, so I, I do, I do study Jesus. And again, like we talked earlier in the conversation, I was rooted in Christian mythology, so it's very familiar to me. But I also think that it is a, that relationship with Jesus or the divine or the Buddha is, is one that is direct and Gnostic.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, yeah. Was there a certain point along your journey that you can remember believing or I guess not, not believing that the resurrection was true or. Uh, yeah, yeah, I guess the resurrection,

Speaker B: the rapture or, or the resurrection.

Speaker A: Yeah, either. Yeah, his resurrection.

Speaker B: I, I don't know if there was a moment in time. I do remember a moment in time in Sunday school where we were. It was the parable about Jonah and the whale. And then I was like, really? He lived in the belly? Like, how is that possible?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then if the answer is Always a miracle. You've lost me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, especially if you've lost the moral of the parable. I think that we, we, we are as a social species, we part of our evolution. And the important part of our evolution is our imagination to see things that don't already exist. And the way that we communicated and passed down knowledge were through stories. And at a certain point I think that we've forgotten the value of mythology and have treated it as fact. Yeah. And once we have went on that path, we've lost, we've lost the, the ancient knowledge. Unless you, unless you're still part of a secret gnostic organization. Right. These are like thousands and thousands and thousands of years of, of work that lies outside the Bible. And we all know the Bible is a curated version. The Council of Nicaea, very, very Roman influenced. Um, I look at that, um, and it's not to poke anything contradictory in the Bible, but what I see are the grubby fingerprints of man. I don't see divinity, I see politics.

Speaker A: M

Speaker B: ah, But I guess what I'm saying is that there are other, uh, canonical or not. There are other artifacts of knowledge or maybe campfire stories of knowledge that are out there that we have misinterpreted the importance of the story.

Speaker A: All right, I got a question for you.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then I do gotta, I have to pick up my dad from the airport now.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So I do have to go.

Speaker A: Yeah, we'll make this the last one then. We um, want your dad to get a ride home. Um, all right, so earlier in the conversation we talked about rational thinking versus like this, this idea of a mystery and not knowing. And I guess, yeah, I guess my final kind of question to you and yeah, feel free, I'd love to hear your answer is how can we know when we're using our rational mind to try to understand a mystery?

Speaker B: That's a great Buddhist koan. And, and, and a great question. And I'm trying to think of an appropriate answer that makes me seem like I know what I'm talking about. I think when you know, you know.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I, I, I, I, I do. We, we are rational minded, dominant.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I would say chances, 99% chances are you, you're using your rational brain.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I, I guess for me the way. Maybe to filter is, is to think in terms of like an embodied consciousness where it's more than just feel because emotion and feeling are also part of the psyche. I would argue a part of this rational brain.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, that the mystery you should get to a point where you can smile and know that you don't need to solve the mystery, just let the mystery be. And this is kind of goes back to Buddhism is that befriending, uncertainty,

Speaker A: Place to end.