Dorian Kominek - Riding the Partner Rainbow

Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the podcast where we dive deep into the mysteries and the secrets of partnerships and the channel. My name is Micho. I'm head of marketing at Chanex and I'll be your host for today. Today I've got the pleasure of speaking with Dorian Komanek, channel leader at Zapier.

It's great to see you. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing?

I'm doing great. Great. I was really looking forward to this one, and I practiced a lot in pronouncing Zapier like Zapier and not like Zapier in the way I thought it was pronounced in the last five years. So I think it's a good start.

Nice. Well done. Yeah, they actually have some merch that's like Zapier. It's like Zap, Zapier, Z-A-Y-P-I-Z-A-P-P, like spelled all the different ways, like crossed out, crossed out, crossed out, and then just zapier at the bottom.

So yes. I love it. I'm definitely not going to tell you how I have a Zapier written in my notes. So to get into the meat of it, before we dive in, could you give us a quick introduction, who you are, what you've done, what you're up to at Zapier?

Yeah. So for the last two years, I've been um helping build and scale uh Zapier's channel program. So it's uh, you know, uh a service kind of service-oriented program with uh service-oriented partners who um help uh help our our clients, you know, build and automate their workflows um where they you know might lack those technical skills, varying sizes of agencies um mostly. And then, you know, we're kind of always experiment experimenting with new partner types, but that's what I've been doing at Zapier.

And then in my career, I've done similar things building and scaling partner programs across different, you know, different types of products, both services and SaaS, and somewhere in between, and then outside of tech, uh, same sort of thing, channel management. And then before that, I was an entrepreneur for a decade. So um had a bit of a diverse career, like all channel people. Yeah, no, it's it's so funny that you say that because you've had one of those nonlinear paths that I I love to see in this space.

And I I keep noticing that that pattern with channel folks, like there's no single path to success. So that makes me curious. Looking back, what was the moment that you realized that channel work actually fit you better than the other things you originally set out to do? I think that channel is it doesn't necessarily fit me better.

I think it's the same because I view um building, you know, channel programs and establishing and scaling in the zero-to-one motion as really like an act of entrepreneurship. And that's where I started was as an entrepreneur and building and scaling things and solving problems. And I see this the same way. It's like, you know, you're you're you're doing all the same things you would be as an entrepreneur.

Um, yeah, at least for me. That's my uh take. I really like that perspective, and I definitely want to get back to that. Um, there was something I noticed when I was when I was scouring your LinkedIn page, and that's that you've got human first in your LinkedIn tagline, and I love that.

But I was wondering, what does that mean to you day to day? Well, that's a good question. Yeah, I was just kind of updating my LinkedIn and I recently added that. So you're very observant.

To me, the way I would describe it is like people who live close to the surface of who they are. You know, there's not a lot of pretense and layers and lenses, you know, that you kind of can collect that up like you roll through life and gather, you know, dust and pick up things, but you just gotta like shake that off and and shine through. And that can be hard, you know, because you're being you're more vulnerable when you're like that. And but I think it's better that way.

It feels more authentic. So that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, no, I completely agree.

And I I think it's it's really, really important to also radiate that that that reality of who you are, right? Because at the end of the day, the more people learn, the more people that learn to be that way, the easier it becomes to build things together. And I think it aligns with what you were saying. Like, hey, at the end of the day, we're all trying to build something, we're trying to achieve something.

And if we do that in the realest way possible, that's better for everyone. And I have to say, the conversations I've been having recently on this podcast, every single person has emphasized this over and over: the importance of empathy, the importance of paying it forward, the importance of being real, especially in the channel, because that's so relationship heavy. That what can we do more than be real people and try to find real solutions, right? So I love that.

And yes, I did find that out like a half an hour before we started calling, but I thought it was great because I just see it more and more often. But taking a look at the channel in specific. So before SAS pulled you in, before tech pulled you in, you were running distributor relationships at Mila, you're doing channel marketing across compass groups, partner network, which is all quite a different world from tech. So I'm always curious what's something that the traditional channel, so appliances, food sources, that whole side, gets right that the tech industry has either far forgotten or hasn't figured out yet?

Humility, honestly. Sorry. Yeah. I actually think, yeah, you know, we in the tech industry are kind of can be in our own world, and we've got a very special kind of secret club and a special like ecosystem of people and things we do and things we know about and things, things we learn, you know, and we just establish all of these best practices and playbooks and rules that this is the thing you do, and then hot take.

Actually, no, you do it the opposite way. And like, I, you know, out in the world, like when you're selling appliances, it's just very, it's like, hey, hey, man, my dishwasher broke, like there's water all over my floor. Give me a new one. Okay, like here's your options.

How do we do that? Like we're just selling stuff. That's what channel is. We're just it's one-to-many relationships, and we're selling stuff.

And like, what's the best way to do that? And I think uh in the world, I shouldn't say the real world, like what we're doing is real, but you know what I mean? Like it's we get down to the brass tacks and we just figure out how to do that. Tech overcomplicates things sometimes, um, and we get in our own way, you know, we get kind of very heady.

So yeah, I completely agree. I I think sometimes you read taglines or product descriptions, and I'm like, it's completely inscrutable what these tech companies are doing. And then you actually dive deep into it and you're like, that's it. And at the end of the day, I think it's actually good if you combine those two elements, like humility and that people first approach, that it becomes a really kind of organic way of speaking to people, right?

Hey, what problem are you trying to solve? Do we have a fit? Yes, no, let's go, right? If your dishwasher's broken, you need a new dishwasher, we can help you, right?

That's it's really not that complicated. So speaking of humility, I think tech also in general sometimes likes to act like it invented partner ecosystems. And and you've obviously seen both sides of that line, right? So you've probably got a sharper read on this than than most, including me.

But I am wondering like, where do you think tech is innovating in the partner space? And where is it just renaming stuff that's already existed for a hundred years? Yeah, you know, it that's kind of interesting. Like the reason I think that like tech started out, like the reason why, if if you think about it, like SaaS was a great business model because you cut out all the distributors, right?

It's like you cut out all the manufacturers and distributors and everything. You can make the product yourself, you can have it yourself, like right on your own, you know, in the cloud, on your computer, whatever, and you can just put it up for sale. Like, and you don't even need necessarily a direct sales motion. People can even just subscribe.

And I think that's why SaaS was such an appealing business model to venture capitalists and things. They come in and there's all of this layer of expense that's cut out that we're in hard goods, you need that. You have to distribute things and manufacture them and all that. So tech kind of like re-invented partnerships, like kind of came to the realization as it matured.

It was like first, it was like, oh, we need a direct sales motion because maybe we actually do need human relationships and people to help sell the things and explain why they're good. And then it was like, oh, we could do this on mass, like we could do it through partners. And then they just sort of like accidentally reinvented distribution. So, but I think like it serves kind of a different purpose, like because it's sort of indicative of the maturity, like as techs matured, there's there's sort of this need to distribute in this way.

And we've come up with creative ways to do that because our products are intangible, you know, so you can't hold it in your hands. You've got to like find ways to resell something that doesn't exist in reality. It's just lines of code. So there's interesting ways we've done that, you know, in finding like these service partners and integration partners, value-added resellers, you know.

I guess you could think of analogies for like a value-added reseller in the real world, but it would be a little different than tech. Um, that's kind of an innovation. Yeah, it's interesting that you raise this because while you were talking, I was thinking, like, how could I uh see innovation in this space? And I was thinking of the exact same thing.

Like, how would you do a value-added resell on a dishwasher, sticking with that analogy? And it's it is much more difficult. I mean, you could do a service plan, right? That makes sense, but how do you actually expand the product set or the services set around that?

And I think the fact that tech and SaaS specifically is intangible, has created an ecosystem where you can be very creative with what kind of software you bolt on. Like you said, it's it's lines of code, so you can expand that those lines of codes with like conceptual innovation. And I think that's something where traditional appliances run into many roadblocks because you have that manufacturing process that you have to deal with. You need things are heavily regulated, et cetera, et cetera.

So you can't really iterate quickly. I think that's actually a fascinating approach. The way to look at it is like the conceptual landscape has broadened so much, so much more than in these old school kind of channel-led businesses. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. And I mean, you can you can kind of make analogies. Like uh, I guess for a dishwasher, you could think of like a value-added reseller. Like, there's uh some of the distribution distribution partners might have like a an installer who comes with the purchase, right?

And they bring the thing to your house and they install it. Ecosystem partners might be more like product like or integration partners. Washer fluid. Yeah, yeah, or like true product integrations, like we don't make that component at our factory, so we have to partner with like like Thermidor or something.

So like but then like you say, it's more complicated. There's regulations, there's IP on all the little plastic pieces, and they have to come up with like agreements on how that's represented commercially. So yeah, I think that because of sort of lifting some of that uh that sort of regulation and then just the physical, like it's difficult. Limitations, yeah.

Yeah, physical limitation, we could be a little more creative. There's there's sort of like in the rainbow of ways you can partner, there's there's every single hue instead of sort of strict, strictly defined types of partners, you know. So yeah. Yeah, no, I I I think that's a great segue to another question I had.

If you're talking about that that partner rainbow, which is going to be the the name of this episode, by the way. So Zapier is a fascinating one to talk about then, because in a way, the whole product is partnerships, right? Every every integration is a relationship, but the the formal channel motion has come much later than at most companies your size. So I can imagine that that creates a really specific dynamic internally.

I'm wondering from your perspective, because you set this up, what what's it like actually building a channel program inside a company where product-led growth has carried the business for so long? Yeah, I think that's well, I think it's challenging because, well, this is the the truth about any person in the position of building a channel program. I think we always feel like we've got to prove ourselves and prove our worth, and we're sort of like punching up a little bit and we're we're championing our partners and we're a little bit the underdog.

And we're up against this major success. You know, it's like trying to fill the shoes of like extremely successful parents. Like, you know, it's hard to um it's hard to demonstrate that, and then it can be sort of the the cart before the horse thing, like, well, we want to do it, but you know, you've got to prove that it works. But it's like, well, I can't prove that it works unless you resource me, right?

So it's just the same, same thing, the same sort of discussion uh that you're always looping around having, but maybe even a little bit um more that way. Uh but I think like the thing about Zapier is the partners, what's unique about Zapier is the solution partners like in our program are recognized for their technical skill and ability. Like so Zapier was a product, it wasn't a service company. So before it sort of could establish strong services, it just really leaned on those partners.

So there wasn't a channel motion, but there were partners who were doing services. So that kind of helped make the case because Zapier, I think, didn't really want to do services. Not to speak for anyone at Zapier, but that's how it looks historically to me. So yeah.

Yeah, it's fascinating indeed because you you think about it, it sounds so self-serving, right? Self-serviceable almost uh from a Zapier perspective. But then indeed, building out that that bigger and better or adjacent go-to-market models, that's something where you can then innovate in a more traditional, in a more traditional way. Now I've got to ask, were there any roadblocks that you ran into besides the resourcing part while you were building these programs out?

Yeah, I think um I would say like so in my uh in my uh paper, in my research, I kind of talked about like how you need to frame, frame up building a channel program as though you're building an entrepreneurial, like you're building a venture. And I think it's this is like is totally fair. And this is like kind of a lot of organizations do this, but as they mature, they become more managerial, which means they're risk averse and they're uh they want to, you know, build a moat and protect what they have, and it's less worth taking risks.

And if we're gonna take a risk, we have to know the upside, and there has to be a really big upside. So that sort of drives this like managerial behavior, um, which is like really antithetical to what you want when you're make when you're creating a venture, you need to be entrepreneurial, you need to be innovative, you need to take lots of small, silly risks, um, you know, and and like scale against those incrementally. And part of the way that you do that, and part of how you can be successful doing that is by really aligning to the senior leadership team and the senior strategy and having a big picture view of like, okay, where are we all going?

Like, and riding on the coattails of that vision. But, you know, I think just because Zapier is more mature, there was some of that friction. It's a little more managerial in some ways. And though it does operate like uh kind of like a small startup in some ways, there is still that protect the moat, uh, you know, be very considerate about sort of the the moves we make and the, you know, let's prove it first, let's look at the data.

Not that it's not important to do those things, but I think it makes it a little harder. Yeah, no, I to I totally understand what you mean. And I I've got to give it to Zap here that they then did invest in a program like this that that might seem like a an interesting move from a company perspective to to go into the channel in this way. And and I've got to say, like, I'm hearing this bubbling around more and more.

So there's there's a podcast with um Sam Belmay from from Av Point, who uh he is now the channel evangelism director for the Americas. And and we had a conversation about like what does that mean? Because indeed, everything is measured like on quarterly quotas, revenue, growth, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. But you can't do that when you're talking about evangelism.

Evangelism is the long game, right? And what I think is very cool, what AvPoint did is they said, look, we understand that you have to build this. Go build it. Figure it out, build it from the ground up, and create that strong community, and that will pay pay for itself at the end.

And I think companies that dare to make a shift like this, which which I feel like Zapier is definitely doing in some sense with this with this channel push, I think it's a really smart move to also diversify and and create fewer points of failure and really strengthen those relationships to get your go-to-market really solid. Um and I I think what you say is absolutely correct that a lot of larger companies, you know, introducing a brand new go-to-market, that's like it's like heresy.

How are we gonna manage that? How are we gonna control that? But I think the companies that do understand that they need to change with the times, not just on the tech side, but also on the go-to-market side, like approach avenues in a new way. There's many ways to roam.

I think those are the companies that are really gonna succeed and also make a bigger name for themselves. Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, yeah, uh trying to be like have a pulse on the market. And honestly, it comes down to like listening to the customers and and users.

Like, what do they want and how do we make their lives easier? And okay, could it be through partners? Is that something that maybe we should think about? Um, yeah, I think, and then you know, like just Zapier too, like especially right now.

I know we said we weren't gonna talk about AI, but the other thing that makes this challenging is the product is shifting so quickly and it has to. And so, you know, if you're trying to build a go-to-market motion with partners, it's it's tough to like track to that, to be elastic to that. So that's another challenge. But I think, you know, that's not like a Zapier specific thing.

That's like probably a lot of channel leaders are going through that with shifting products. So Yeah, I when when I started off this podcast, I was asking, hey, what how do you see the channel shifting in the next one to two years? And now it's like, how do you see the channel shifting in the next one to two months, right? Yeah.

But are there any specific ways that you kind of stay ahead of those changes? Is there any tips you can give the audience around like, hey, how do you maintain that momentum when everything around you is changing? Oh man, do I have tips? I don't know.

I think you try to do the normal things you'd do, like probably not surprising like to anyone that I'd say like listen to your partners, use them as your eyes and ears. But I would say, like, in this case, they're also like, I don't know, like everything is very nascent and we're all just figuring it out. So for me, I guess it's just you know, I tend to have like an internal locus of control and I want to like get ahead of things and try to like manage it and what can I do? And I've just had to like let go of that and be like, you know what?

Yeah, I don't know. Like we're gonna see and we're gonna be very iterative and we're gonna like track along with it and build as we go, but not over-rotate and not over-construct uh at each sort of uh degree of of pivot or change. Because, like you say, in two months, it could be different, you know, just taking tiny little steps and observing and being a little bit hands-off right now, probably just for the sake of like your mental health and happiness isn't a bad idea. Yeah, no, I I totally agree.

And I think it's a really smart approach. I mean, you said you didn't have any tips and tricks. I think a couple things you said are really, really impactful. One is listen, have those conversations, understand what the end customer is doing, know where you can kind of effectively implement your sphere of influence, you know.

And indeed, don't go beyond that if you know that everything can be different next week. But I think another part of that is exactly what you said. Be iterative, right? I mean, look, if the world literally completely changes tomorrow, no one's gonna be ready for that.

That's just the fact. So as we build together, with that end customer in mind, with our partners in mind, I think it's really, really important to have that perspective of like, even if everything changes, end customers and people, let's just call them people, human beings. Um, they nobody's gonna instantly change tomorrow. I read a really interesting piece about that.

Someone was, it was an opinion piece around like, hey, what if Agentic AI completely takes over your phone and like all you have to do is say, like, oh, I want to go home, and then your app arranges that for you, a taxi for you, whatever. And this person simply said, You really think that the big guys in this space are just going to accept that? You think they're not going to try to have their own way of kind of pivoting into this industry. You know, it's not like these companies also need to change, people need to change, companies need to change, business models need to change, and that doesn't happen overnight, even with huge innovations, right?

So I think it's important to indeed be iterative, be communicative, be humble. I really like that point that you made. Um, yeah, and just just keep your eyes and ears open and sometimes try crazy stuff. I think that's also a fun thing to do, right?

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I and I also think staying a little bit grounded, like we were kind of chatting about like, you know, I I think it's useful to go out into the world and see how other types of industries function. And sometimes you can bring like surprising insights from just standard operating procedures into tech because tech loses sight of the basics, and it's you know, you can kind of uh reintroduce just some of that the Occam's razor of what we've established already, you know?

So yeah, anyway, yeah. Yeah, the the realness of what we do. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. What's real about it?

Yeah, I completely agree. Before we uh dive into the uh philosophy of all of this, uh I want to ask you a question. We always ask our guests to nominate the next guest on this podcast. So who can I talk to to have as fun a conversation as I've had with you?

Okay. So I will nominate Fiona Turco. She is leading creator relationships and influencer relationships at Gamma. So that might be a very interesting convo.

I love it. Yeah, I'm I'm always looking for the different hook. And I think influencer relationships also it's it's a type of partner marketing if you think if you're thinking about it. So that sounds incredible.

Hey, to wrap this up, do you have any final insights, any final thoughts that you'd like to share with me or the audience? I guess final insights. Uh kind of the theme of all this, right? I I guess just keep it real.

Like we're all people at the end of the day, you know, we're all just we're all just out here trying to like things are are a little dicey right now. It's a scary it's always tech is like very like this. Like a and yeah, if you're listening, I did a roller coaster with my hand. And just keep it real.

Remember the relationships, remember that we're all people, we all have feelings, we all have a nervous system, you know. We all have like like a hamburger as our operating system. Like, so you know, just be kind to each other, keep it real. I love it.

Yeah, yeah. Take care of your hamburger OS. Yeah, exactly. Um, hey, this was fantastic.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to speak with me. And uh for you, dear listeners, thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you in the next episode. Thanks, Dorian. Thanks for having me.

Thank you. Bye.