Attribution is Broken: How Runa Measures What Actually Matters | Joana Rocha, Director of Growth Marketing, Runa

If you're still reporting on MQs using last such attribution or gating your content in 2025, this episode will make you rethink everything. The truth is that attribution is messy and complex, but it's so important because as marketers, we need to be able to show how our work's making an impact, and also understand what is and isn't working in order to make strategic decisions. But First touch, last Touch and classic lead gen are reporting methods that just no longer work In a world where, according to a study by Dream Data, the average B2B customer journey has 62.

4 touches across 3.6 channels. It's just a lot more complicated to attribute correctly. So what's a better way?

That's what we cover in today's episode with Joanna Rocha, director of Growth Marketing at Run. Joanna shares how her team ditched the outdated lead gen mindset and adopted a more realistic account level view of the buyer journey, where multiple stakeholders, channels, and content touchpoint all contribute to a deal, not just the last Google ad, someone clicked. Joanna's got extensive experience in the marketing world acquiring her degree in engineering. At first, we need to switch to marketing and work for startups across multiple continents.

To help them grow. She also runs her own community tech talk that helps people navigate the career market with confidence. Runa, the company she works for is a series B financial infrastructure company that enables others to power instant flexible global payouts across over 190. Countries.

And in this episode we talk about why traditional attribution models are outdated and what a more realistic model looks like. How to run an A BM campaign that actually aligns marketing, BDRs, and sales. Why NAR has their BDR team actually sit under marketing and how it changes everything. Why gating content might hurt you more than help and why it being everywhere.

Events, social paid, all of that matters more than RY per channel. I hope you enjoy the episode. You are listening to the market like a FinTech podcast. My name is Ara Minta, MD admin studios and partner at the FinTech Marketing Hub.

And with this podcast, my aim is to explore the strategies and tactics that top marketers around the world use to grow FinTech companies. We have discussions about how to navigate compliance, the intricacies of marketing technical products, and targeting hard to reach ideal customers, all of that while living the startup life. I hope you enjoy this episode. Well, Joana, I'd love to start with my first question, which is I found out through my research that you lived for a while in China, specifically Beijing.

I also lived in China for six months, quite a while ago. And it's not something that a lot of people do, so I'm really curious about your story there. How did you find it and also how do you think that helped you? In your marketing in any way, or maybe just on your perspective on life.

I just think it's such an interesting experience. Yeah, for sure. That's so interesting. I'm gonna throw this question back at you when I'm done.

But basically I came to study here in the UK about nine years ago. I was actually studying engineering back in Brazil. And then I came to London and then as part of my program, I could go live abroad. So I was actually studying Mandarin in my university because I could pick a language.

So I pick Mandarin and French. So I spent six months in China and then six months in Paris, So I never imagined myself going to China. I mean, it's a bit crazy to think about it now that like, I actually lived in China Yeah. but it was one of the best experiences of Yeah.

Like honestly, it's such a different place, it's a different culture and I love going into different places and like experimenting other countries, like I've lived in five different countries already in my life. So I really love that side of. Learning how it is like to live in that different environment. And I feel like it's different if you go like to different countries in Europe compared to like going to such a different.

as well. So it gave me such a perspective on everything in life. I think one of the things that I carry even today from my professional life is the adaptability. I think in this market right now, like for any company that you go into, adaptability is huge because especially startups are.

Adapting very quickly and like they're changing very quickly and you need to keep up with that change. So even like looking on a personal life, professional life, but also like in a marketing lenses, I think this is what it taught me the most is like how to quickly adapt to different environments. And basically like take from where you have the resources that you have at the time and make that work. But I would love to understand like what was your perspective of it?

That's actually a really good answer, and I agree with you on the adaptation. I was listening to a podcast where they were saying that in, in the age of ai, where execution could be done more and more by technology what a human can do. The people that really set out are the people who can really adapt. And maybe it's not just the skills, but it's the creative side of things.

So that's an interesting, like I hadn't thought of that. Of course, I would totally agree. Adapting. I think I always say like, I went very young.

I was 18 when I went, which looking back, I'm like, I don't know why I, and I went completely alone. I didn't know anyone. I just threw me on the deep end. But it was a fantastic experience, just like, what you said.

And I think it was very eye-opening, very humbling as well, because. Anyone who's been to China will know that it's very different to the west, to Europe, basically completely different. So it was very humbling in the sense that I remember living there and being like, wow, Europe or wherever, whatever city you live in is not the center of the world and people have a very different way of living to you, and there's no right or wrong, it's just completely different. So it really.

Allowed me to be or encouraged me to be a lot more empathetic, and it allowed me to adapt a lot more. You definitely have to adapt when you're living there. And it just made me love understanding cultures a lot more. Like I grew up with multiple cultures as well, lived in multiple countries, and so I always thought that.

I think people often on our team there's quite lots of multicultural people and I think people who have grown up with multiple cultures tend to be more empathetic because you have to be, so I went to a different school, like I grew up in the UK and then I went to Spain and I grew up in Spain and I was always comparing the two countries and that forced me to put myself in the position of the other person. And so I think this is ultimately why I love marketing. 'cause it forces you.

To put yourself in the position of the other person. So just an interesting thing. And also I also love how China's marketing, it also introduced me to QR code payments and stuff. So I think also that's where FinTech, I kind of started getting into FinTech 'cause I was like, this is amazing.

You can make payments in like seconds and WeChat is amazing, right? And um when I realized as well, like a lot of the businesses, 'cause like Brazil is a bit delayed and I think even Europe, like in some instances I was looking at so many things there that I was like. Oh my God. Like we just launched this like last year in like Brazil or like in Europe, like we're so delayed.

So like they always have like these technologies and it's the same thing like before Covid you went to restaurants, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's such a different There's super advanced. I think what really struck me as well was back then you could already rent bicycles by the minute or something, and that in Europe was completely unheard of.

So that was also super ahead of its time. So I agree with you. I was very like. While the way they do marketing here, the way they reach their customers is completely different.

So it also opened up my eyes to different ways of doing things, anyway, it was really fun and I always encourage people to go because I think it really, the culture shock is really worth it because it really humbles you and makes you realize that I. there's other ways to do things than your own. So I always recommend people to go to China if they can. Okay.

Amazing. So we're here to talk about attribution really. And this topic came up because we met at Pay 360 We started talking about attribution and you had some very interesting thoughts on it. And so I'd love to start with.

What do you think is going wrong A little bit with attribution, because I think this is a topic that comes up constantly in FinTech marketing, and I feel like it's a constant debate because we haven't figured out like a way really to do it properly. It's really difficult but it's also quite important because especially in FinTech, our leaders care about the numbers and I don't think we'll ever be able to escape from, we need to see some growth. We need to see how this contributes to the company.

So let's start with what do you think is wrong with how a lot of marketers or companies in general do attribution? what's going wrong there? I think that's very interesting because that's like a recurring team that comes up at least once a year like, oh my God, attribution is terrible. yeah, way to measure anything, and then you kind of settle for whatever you have and then like three months later you're yeah.

God, like we're getting this pressure. We need to report Exactly. So it's just like. An endless loop.

And I think a lot of attribution kind of goes into also like the business mentality, because I think this is a shift as well that has been happening like in the last couple of years of changing from like lead gen to like more like an account based model. Because it's like, okay, like do you want account like lead MQL, ql, like that funnel of like you are interacting with. People, or do you wanna track more on an account level like you are engaging with an account? Doesn't matter how many people like you are engaging within that account.

I think this is also like a discussion point that I see a lot of, like either from senior leadership or like the board or like people that have been in the industry for longer is like, we have this way of measuring things and like. We always default to this way, which I don't think necessarily is the right way. I think we should be tracking things on the account Mm-hmm. not necessarily on the lead level, because again, it takes multiple buyers to engage in the journey for you to be able to sell them something.

So kind of goes back to that discussion. But on the attribution itself, you also need to think of it as like, okay, what are the things that you need to measure? Right? Because in marketing, the main challenge that we have in like this big fight that we also have with sales is like.

Okay, is this marketing generated or is Mm-hmm. generated? And This causes a lot of conflict between both teams and there are some companies already like calling, putting back both teams in the same umbrella of like, this is like a revenue team to try to conciliate it a little bit more. But I think attribution is also going on the way of creating more friction between those teams because it, it becomes a matter of like, this is mine and this is yours.

the way that we really need to think about it, and this is the problem with all the softwares and systems we use, which are more like first touch attribution or last touch attribution, is like, how do you find out what's happening throughout the whole journey? So like, sure, they may be collect on like a Google ad, but like, did they see your ad on LinkedIn? Because majority of the people, they see an ad, they don't click on Exactly. but.

You kind of like put that thought into their head and these are some things that like are really hard to track. So going back to, okay, can you actually look at the whole journey instead of looking into silos and seeing okay, because. This came from like an email A BDR sent. This is like sales versus like, no, like they actually went to our website.

They actually looked at our Google ad. They actually saw us in an event and that all contributes to that gen revenue being generated. So it's also part of a mentality shift and also being able to track that because now realistically, if you use any CRM HubSpot, Salesforce, you're gonna track first touch and Exactly. like.

impossible to track what's happening in between. And this is something that we really need to find a way to do because otherwise it's gonna be unsustainable for marketing to like continue working and like asking for more budget and Exactly. justify that budget that they're getting. Exactly.

And we'll talk about how you do it at Runa in a bit. But do you think this whole moving away from lead gen, is that also, 'cause you just said, it's an account that there's multiple buyers, et cetera. Is this a unique thing to enterprise, you think? Like selling to enterprise, or do you think this moving away from lead gen applies to like all types of businesses?

I think moving away from Legion is on all businesses. I don't think it's just enterprise, because I think even if you're selling at a startup, like usually you still have at True. two people or three people that are involved in that process. Whether that is like the CEO and then like rev ops and marketing, depending on what tool that you are.

so I feel like at the end of the day, you still are gonna have a committee of more than one person. So it's like, okay, just because I don't know who like downloaded a form on the website or like downloaded a guide on the website, like that's a hundred percent sure that they're gonna buy from us is like. Is it really? And that goes into another thing as well of like gating content, Mm, against.

I think content should always be definitely. and we should give information for free. But I think because people are in this mindset of like, we need to track everything, we need to generate leads, Yep. they gate everything and it's like, okay, those are all the emails we're generating.

And then they give that to like, these are all the numbers we generated this month, but then at the end of the day, they're ary metrics. It's like, actually mean anything? Yeah. who are not ready to buy from you?

Yeah. I would also argue not a good idea to gate, especially with LLMs that are crawling everything. If you gate it, then an LM can't crawl it, and then that person is doing research on cha Bt they're not gonna find the information so. Even less now, I would say is a good approach.

So yeah, S-Q-L-M-Q-L leads, it's just not really working anymore. And so what you're saying is, let's look at the full account, right? And who are the different people who are interacting with different, piece of content or whatever, different touch points. well, let's start with the sales and marketing team.

How, at Runa how have you taken the approach of having everyone under the same umbrella and how do you kind of set it up, I guess? Yeah, I think one thing that has worked for us is putting the BDR team under marketing. Mm. Mm-hmm.

in our company, the BDR team sits under my team, Yep. the growth team under marketing. And then that kind of acts as a bridge between what we're doing in marketing and what sales is doing, because I think a lot of the friction as well between both departments is that like marketing is focusing on X, Y, and Z, and then sales is focusing on something completely different. And it's like, okay, how can we actually take the time and resources we're spending on marketing?

Distributing that to sales and they're using it towards the right accounts. So I think having the BDR inside the marketing team is really a good bridge for us to be able to do that because again, they can report to us exactly what's happening in the market, where they're hearing from as being like the first point of contact for a lot of those people that are coming in. And it gives us a lot of the understanding that we need to pivot and change on our messaging. And then at the same time.

They pass those to the sales team. So then we can see like, okay, these type of accounts are working well, like they're closing well, and we keep all of their reporting as well under marketing. So I report everything on like also the sales side, like the BDR side. So I keep very close aligned or what marketing is generating versus what sales is closing.

And it's like, okay, are the things that we are generating. Like, are they able to close it at the end of the day? Because not like we're doing something wrong, so we just need to make sure that they're very aligned. So I think keeping track of reporting on both ends is also very important.

There are a lot of teams that I see where marketing is siloed into like, okay, I only care about until this becomes an opportunity and then it goes to Yep. then sales is like, okay, I only care about when it's from, opportunity to Yep, That's where the discrepancy is exactly. like, here we see really good numbers, but then on sales they see really bad numbers. So it's like, okay, we're not actually doing a good of a job like we should be doing.

So I think it's also keeping track of a lot of the data and making sure that you're not just stopping at like opportunities. Like the metrics I look at is revenue generated. How much revenue is marketing influencing, and is marketing helping sales close? Yeah.

No, I love that. And so how, if we imagine a prospect is being targeted by Runa, what is that kind of process gonna look like in terms of BDR from marketing? How does that journey look like, I guess. Yeah, so we have like two approaches.

Either we can look at it as a vertical, so like let's say we're going after vertical X and we're targeting that vertical. Then we build like a subset of accounts, let's say like there are 10 to 20 accounts that we really wanna target within that vertical. So us in marketing, like we do a campaign towards that vertical with like messaging that we align with sales on like what they're hearing and like what they have as feedback on what works for that vertical. And then we separate like 10 to 20 accounts that we wanna do on a BM approach to, so like very specific targeted ads for that account.

And then what we do in the meantime while we're warming up those accounts is like we have. Intense signals where we see like, okay, this account has gone to our website, this account has engaged with an ad. Then we flag it to the BDR team, like, okay, reach out to them because they're a bit warmer. And then from there they have a higher likelihood of getting a meeting with the account, and then that's when they pass it to the ae.

So this is more or less like the flow that we try to get throughout everything because if the BDR is just reaching out to code accounts. They never heard from us, then the conversion rate is gonna be like 5%. So we wanna try to make sure that they're spending their time as well on things that we know are more likely to yield to something. So we just try to, again, warm it as a marketing team.

I think that's what we need to do, like in marketing, is warm Yep. a specific vertical, warm up, a specific account, and then from there it is gonna make the job of the BDR and the sales team easier. So that's a very a BM focused type of kind of approach. Are there other types of marketing strategies that you do apart from a BM where it's like a different kind of system?

Or is that the main one that you use? I in this market right now, a BM is booming for a reason because. One, if you take a look at like how many touch points it takes for a buyer to engage with you, for them to buy something from you is growing up Yep. Yep.

it's from like 20 to 30 to 40 to Yeah. gonna keep growing. So it takes a lot of touch points, it takes a lot of buyers internally in the company. So realistically, if you're trying to go for an a CV of above 30, 50 K, you need to have a more a BM approach because otherwise it's gonna be really hard.

get inside of that company. You can do it like just by prospecting, like doing sales outreach, but it's probably gonna be a sales cycle of Yeah. eight months. So it's gonna be really long.

So I think if you have like a higher a CV that you're going after, like definitely a BM is like the way to go, especially from now to the future. And I think that's the direction most companies are going in Yeah. as well. But overall, we still need to warm up the market either way.

So we're going a lot to events. So it's not just specifically like, oh, we have the account there and we wanna be in front of them. It's like, we want also wanna create brand visibility. So I think there are two aspects to it.

Like one, creating that brand visibility and making sure that we are being known for the companies that we wanna go after. And this is like through events. This is through like raising our brand awareness through like different campaigns and just warming up like a specific audience towards us. And then there's more like, okay, bottom of the funnel, we wanna get those accounts to buy from us right now, let's go after them.

So I think those are like more or less the divisions that I look Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I agree with you. I'm seeing this more and more, and it makes kind of sense especially in the market where we're, where also people are bombarded with so much like cold emails and so many different types of content, but especially cold emails, like, yeah, you're a lot more likely to open a cold email from someone you've been consuming content from, then someone you haven't.

And that's a big part of what this is about. Right? That's why you need to make content accessible. So yeah.

content that you have is like not the way, because people are smart enough in this market to not give you emails because Yeah. bombarded. So at the end of the day, it's like, do you want them to consume your content, or do you rather get their email, which you would be able to get it in like a, any tools Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point actually.

Yeah, definitely. So what are some of the tools that you use? Because I think one of the challenges here is what you said is really fantastic, but then how can we see all the touch points within an account? What have they seen?

What specific types of content have they consumed? Can you share anything there? Like how have you been tracking this? so I've been playing around with a new tool for now, like for the last couple of months called Hockey Okay.

and there are a couple of tools in the market that do that. But Hockey Stack is the one that I've seen from recommendations and referral from other companies that they use, and they have found success. In so been testing it out. And essentially what they do is that they connect different touch points so they can connect.

For example, they have a native connection to LinkedIn, a native connection to Google ads. So they kind of everything that is being given from there through the API. But of course, you can only get what the platform gives you. So for example, like on LinkedIn.

The platform already gives you like the accounts that you're engaging with and all of those metrics. So they're able to import that into one centralized view. But then for like Google and Instagram and those type of channels is harder because they don't give you that information. So it's like more or less based on assumption and also like IP address.

But what, But what hockey Stack does is that they just centralize all of this into one place. So I can see what are the engagements being done on LinkedIn, on Google, across all of the different page channels. And then I also export and connect everything happening in the CRM. So like I track all of the events that we go to, the people that we meet at those events, they're able to track the people that go into our website.

So essentially when I go inside an account, now I'm able to see that timeline. So I can see like, okay. Three months ago, they went to, an event, then one month ago they reacted to our ads. Then like yesterday, they went into our website.

So I'm able to create that storytelling where it's not just like, okay, last and first. It's like what's happening in between. And then you can pick like how you want to create your attribution on that. If it's like linear, if you wanna put the same value to every single channel, or if you wanna wait a channel more than another channel.

But one thing that I specifically look at as well is only look at activities that happened three months before an Hmm. because I feel like a lot of companies as well, they look at like past 12 months, but like, I realistically don't think that what we did 12 months ago is gonna influence a deal that got created today. So I always look from like last three months what happened and then I'm able to create that story and hockey stack has been working well for us. For now.

I've been using it only for a couple of months, but it really helps like just create and that visibility on the different Yeah. being with throughout that journey. And then I can say from like, okay, we have X amount in pipeline. I can say now that like.

Why amount of that was influenced by marketing So cool. they went to our website, they went, they saw an ad, not necessarily clicked on the ad, like also if they just saw it or viewed it and anything like that. So it just gives me better clarity on what's happening. Yeah, no, this is really good.

We had Will Thompson, director of Contact Comply Advantage on the podcast a few months ago and he has a similar approach. He uses a tool called Dream Data, so similar. And what he was saying was it was a complete game changer because I've, I don't dunno what hockey stack looks like, but the visual representation is really helpful of the. Actual it's little dots, like actual touchpoints of every specific activity.

And he said it was so helpful to show this to leadership and say, this is how marketing works. It's just lots of little touchpoint, little dots with lots of different content events, whatever. And then that leads to a sale. And that was really, I was like, man, I need to take screenshots of dream data because I think.

That is often the challenge with leadership is that they might think it's just lead gen, which fair enough. That's how it used to be and that's how it used to work. And actually showing that graph, that graphic of like lots of little touch points and lots of different people within the account as well. So super complex.

That is really a really good visual way of showing this is how marketing works. yeah. Hawker Stack is Yeah. Okay.

I think it's what you said, like it's very powerful to show Mm-hmm. leadership and even like the board as well. 'cause it kind of runs away from this narrative of like. If I give you a hundred thousand more to spend on Google, Exactly.

Like it's not so black and white. It's like, yes, it's gonna influence something, but I can tell you like, I'm gonna put a hundred thousand here, I'm gonna get 300,000. it doesn't work like that. So it helps with visualizing and representing that data and really showing like is not that simple.

There are a lot of touch points happening in between. Yeah, I think the metric ROAS will no longer be accurate. Return on ad spend. It's just, yeah, it's no longer as accurate because it's just way too complicated and not really accurate really, because that's just not really how it works.

So we're changing like, whereas before maybe companies would focus on like. One or two channels and they would track like the ROI on a channel. It feels like we're now in an era where you kind of have to have multiple channels. Right?

Because I think before what people used to say was like, better to be very good at one channel, something like that. And I think I'm starting to realize that we're entering a world where actually kind of have to try and be everywhere. I don't know. Would you agree with that?

Do you think it's, that's a better approach? Try and be everywhere. 'cause then you increase the PO possible touch points. I agree with that a hundred percent Hmm.

that's what makes it harder to say, like, because if you're only focusing on one channel, you can be like, okay, Yeah, exactly. this channel. That's easy to like say how much like I'm. Able to influence on that channel.

But the moment you start spreading across multiple channels, you don't know how much this channel is against the other one. Like you can't rely on like meta telling you that a lead got generated from this because it's not how it works in B2B, like B2C. Sure, like you can track everything properly, Yep. B2B is impossible.

So for me it is about diversifying. Mm. need to try to be in front of your prospect as many times as you can, and this kind of goes back to. Out of home advertising, like how do you measure out of home advertising?

It's impossible. You Yeah. you have an assumption of like, okay, I put this ad out there and this is generating more influx into my website, or have more people researching who we are. But you don't have a way of saying like, this was definitely what did it.

So it's the same principle of like, you need to be in front of them. And then you need to see that over time you are gonna start seeing more people coming to your website, more deals being created, more deals being closed. And it's not something that happens overnight. Like it takes up to six months for you to warm up a specific vertical to get them there.

But you need to be looking at the numbers and not the numbers of like. Google generated this amount of opportunities. It's like over time, how is your pipeline being influenced and how is your pipeline growing based on all the activities that you are doing? So I definitely think that you need to be showing yourself as much as you possibly can in like events, like we leverage events like LinkedIn, display, like a lot of different advertising tools.

And I think even nowadays, like there's so much more, like you can look at like Spotify and you have like pragmatic, so. are a lot of different ways as well that you can, creativity be in front of your audience, and I think you need to leverage that to the most and just forget about like, I need to see the return in this in two months, or I need to see how much this is returning to me. Like, you can't measure that. Like it's unrealistic.

no, I totally agree. Now, I imagine we're talking to someone, and I know this is the case, unfortunately, in 2025, where kind of budgets have been cut a little bit and resources are tighter, and you're like. I imagine we're talking to a head of marketing, CMO and they're like, I don't have many resources. I can't be everywhere really.

I don't have the budget. Like Google Ads is so expensive now. Like I can't how you think would be a better approach if you've got limited resources, but you know, this is true. You know, you're trying to be everywhere as much as you can.

And maybe it's smarter to, instead of putting all that budget in one event to try and spread it a little bit. So how would you think about that? What would you tell that person? I think the first thing I would do is set expectations, because I think this is one of the things that people miss the most is like.

We have lower budgets. Realistically, this is the impact it's gonna Mm-hmm. Like you can't ask me to generate, I don't know, a hundred opportunities with this amount of money. This is just not possible.

So you just need to like lay the foundation. Like if we do this, we're gonna be compromising on X, Y, and Z. Like it's gonna take us six months. To get back and like warm up the market again.

And this has happened like throughout my Mm-hmm. a couple of times. So you just need to make sure that you're being very upfront about exactly what you are gonna miss out. If we have only this budget from there, I'll be like, okay, to maximize this as much as possible.

I think for events specifically. I don't think it is good to like just do a little bit on every single event because at the end of the day, you're not gonna have any visibility. You're not gonna have any impact. You're just gonna be like a small.

in the middle of a sea of companies. So I would choose a couple of events to do it properly and to do it right, like one event where we can have like a big booth, we can have a sidecar event with that event and we can create like a lot of visibility. So I wouldn't scatter that across like multiple events. I would just pick some main ones and I would probably invest much more as well on sidecar events.

if I What do you mean by sidecar? Sorry. So basically events that you can do in parallel, like with a big event. So like you Oh, okay.

Yeah. do like a dinner around money Got it. like the day before or on the day of the event. I would focus on those ones because you can do a lot of events for customers that you wouldn't spend a lot of money on.

Like you can spend easily five, 10,000 like in London and have like 50 to a hundred customers and do like. For example, we've done flight club before, so like Cool. that where you can engage, like existing customers, you can engage prospects. Not something that you throw like crazy amount of budget on, but just something where you can get people together.

So if I had limited budget on events, I would prioritize doing those smaller events for like customers and prospects rather than like spending all of it on like a Monday 2020. So I would wait it that way. And then in terms of paid, think you just need to be smarter about it. Like LinkedIn is the most expensive channel we have, so it realistically, if we don't have a lot of budget, it doesn't make sense to go out in on LinkedIn because you're gonna spend a lot of money without a lot of returns.

So are there smarter ways where you can find your audience in channels that are cheaper? Like PPC, like, meta for example is harder because you don't have the level of targeting of LinkedIn, but you do have tools that help you make that match where they basically take like the people you wanna target and they help you de anonymize those people inside of those platforms. So I think there are ways that you can leverage different tools and be smarter about how you're spending that money and still get in front of your audience.

And I think this is also a good exercise to do. especially for optimizing everything that you have, and this is something that like we, I have done before as well in my career is like, have all of this budget now, but if we didn't have this budget, if we had X amount of budget, what would we be doing differently? Is there anything that we can be doing that could cut costs but Um, same result? Because sometimes when you have a growing amount of budget and it always keeps growing, like you lose a bit of definitely.

I have this money, I'm gonna spend it. So you stop being like as smart about how you're spending that money. So I think it's also like a good exercise to do if yourself is like, That's a. budget, like is this still what I would be Yeah.

No, I love that. And just finally on this topic I love that you have the BDRs reporting to marketing. I think that makes so much sense when you do it in an a BM context. How did you navigate that?

Was that you that suggested, can we please do it this way? Was it the sales team? Was there pushback? What kind of arguments or how did you try and set it up this way?

Just for other people listening who might wanna try this as well. In the company we've had both. So we had a BDR team sitting on the sales before and that didn't work out. Mm-hmm.

we had to, do some cuts on the team and then like the BDR team stopped existing. And then once we rehired again, I suggested that we had this role under marketing. Because I think this is like a first touch point to the prospect, and I Yeah. is again, going back to like marketing is responsible for like the messaging, positioning, how we're being seen, how we're being perceived, what are the companies that are coming to us.

And in our team, the first BDR that I got was gonna be mainly responsible for inbound Okay. we had like a, a sizeable amount of inbound coming in. So for me, it makes sense for that person to be in marketing because again, this is everything that we are attracting, showing up as the brand that we are. So whatever feedback we're getting from there, it's great for us in the marketing team to have that feedback and then work out like, okay, from these people that you're talking to, and that goes back to my point of tracking all the way from beginning to deal closed.

Because then like we have a reference of like, okay, they talk to the BDR here and then I wanna track this all the way to the end, where if the BDR team was sitting somewhere else, maybe I wouldn't have the same incentive. And then from there we started building out the outbound team as well. So now we have like a inbound team and an outbound team. And then on outbound team, it kind of works the same way because we kind of see what are the verticals that we wanna go after.

For example, we wanna go after Vertical X and Y as a marketing team. We produce all of the content for that. We do all of the research for that, and then we start going after that vertical. And then the BDR works out of a subset of accounts that we create for the A.

So we create like a book of business in our business where essentially that's a book of accounts that each AE is responsible for. And then the BDR helps. Close or like get meetings with those subset of accounts. And that subset of accounts is a work between me, so like marketing and sales on seeing what are those accounts are gonna Mm-hmm.

And then the BDR is basically outreaching to them and giving me feedback of like, okay, I'm to reach out to this company. This is the type of feedback that I'm getting. This messaging is working, this messaging is not working and this is how, like we can better loop in all of this feedback into. Our overall messaging and our overall branding.

'cause I feel before, at least like when the sales team was sit, when the BDR team was sitting under sales, it was a bit disconnected in that Interesting. So I think for us it just worked. But I think there are some companies where it works best to be under True. So it's just like a case by You have to try different things.

As a content marketer, I wanna ask What kind of content is the marketing team producing for the BDR? I guess it depends on the vertical, but like, what are some examples of maybe the content that you create and what have you seen seems to work really well in, in this kind of world. Yeah, so we create a lot of guides and research reports. We really like creating research reports where basically we interview a subset of people and then we wanna know about a specific topic, so how it's going, and we want data to back that up.

So we create our own research reports and then the BDR team distributes that same thing with case studies. Like if we don't have a case study for a specific vertical, we Mm. we add that Nice. creating more case studies as well.

I work very closely with the BDR two to create video Mm-hmm. so like just creating like quick snapshots of like the platform that they can share with prospects as well over email. I think those are the main Yeah, makes sense. Very bottom of the funnel type content.

Very like super, like specific. seems very specific to the industry and the account rather than like high level. I don't know, what is a payout kind of stuff, yeah, exactly. And that's where the A BM Of course.

into play, and it doesn't need to be like a one-to-one, it's just like a one to many approach. It's like, okay, I Yeah. after this big group. What can I create that just like puts a little bit more together in the sense of like, this information is relevant for them.

Because if it's like something super generic, then people are probably not gonna be as interested in. Exactly. Yeah. Nice.

This is so interesting. I'd like to end on another, I don't know if side project is the right word, but one of the things that you're working on, which is Tech Talk. I think it's a really interesting kind of enterprise that you're going and I know in 2025 is more important now than ever, or more relevant now than ever. So, tell us a bit about Tech Talk.

What is the mission behind it and how did you end up kind of running it? Yeah, so the reason why we started Tech Talk was because we were seeing a really big gap in the market, in the sense of. People educating and helping other people in tech companies, but not in tech roles. Because Hmm.

you would tell other people like, oh, I work in tech, they would say like, oh, you're a software engineer. But like, Hmm. tech is much more than that. You have marketing, you have sales, you have customer support, customer success, and those are things as well that I didn't know as much about until I got into it.

So a lot of people don't have education into. Tech as an industry. And that's something that I started seeing with like, there are a lot of people trying to switch careers now. There are a lot of people trying to start out like in a new career and they have no idea where to start or what to do.

So this is more or less like the reasoning behind starting it. And now our sole purpose is to help people build and fulfill their careers in tech companies. So. any roles, like any backgrounds is just positioning you in the market.

Because one of the challenges we see a lot now, and I've worked with people from all sorts of companies uh, from B2B to B2C, in tech and everyone, spend like or five years in a company and then everyone's going back to the job market now, especially because of like layoffs and changing companies and everyone's messaging me like. I'm shocked that like I didn't know the job market was this tough. And I think when people go into it, they realize the job market is terrible. And I see that as well from like a hiring manager's perspective.

And from having been hiring this past three Yeah. the job market now is complete chaos, especially with the introduction of 10 times more complicated and harder. So we're just trying to create a tool that helps people, like facilitates that process of like. themselves as the ideal candidate, and this is like my marketing behind me, but positioning them as the right candidate for that company and how they can create fulfilled careers from that.

Yeah. No, I love that. And I think it's really, yeah, this is so needed. I have a few personal friends as well who are in this situation and it's, it's really tough because, you know, they're so smart and you know that they're so skilled and you think, how can this person not find a job?

This is like, it should not be this hard. Since this is, marketing podcast, what would you say is like. Why do you think it's hard in marketing. 'cause I have noticed quite a few marketing friends, maybe that's just 'cause I'm in marketing, but are having a tough time as well.

And then my other question would be, what do you think is especially important if you are a candidate looking for a marketing role? What do you think? A Hiring manager in marketing especially is looking for I think one of the main challenges I'm seeing a lot of people wanting to get into really That's one of the things that I interesting. identified, and I think now the main challenge in marketing, but other, other, uh, fields as well, is that the market is so saturated.

Because of like remote working, but also because of the introduction of ai. And I think now, like as we were talking about in the beginning, like adaptability and skills like that are so important in this market now compared to like degree, for example. So I think people just need to take like a different perspective on like presenting themselves. And one of the biggest challenges I've seen for hiring, like specifically in marketing.

Is people not having a direction. Sometimes I interview people and they're not entirely sure what they wanna do, which is fine if you're like entry level. But if I'm trying to hire for someone that is like very specific role and they don't know what they wanna do, that also doesn't convince me that you're gonna be doing well in this job. And another thing as well is that people don't show interest in the company.

Oh things that I find most shocking is that like one of the questions I ask in my interview is. Why are you applying for this company? Like, why do you wanna work here? And people are like, oh, it's because I saw this job online and the company seems cool.

I'm like, okay, nice. But that's not really telling me anything about your excitement, how you've done your research. So I think people are lacking a lot on doing that. then the other question you asked was around.

If we're talking to someone who's like looking for a marketing job right now, what would you say is like key to, I don't know, improving your chances or just making sure, you end up somewhere that is a good fit? Yeah, I think the first thing is being intentional, so knowing what you wanna Hmm path you wanna get down to. Because a lot of marketing people, they become generalists and hmm. a lot of different things and they know how to do a lot of different things.

But companies now they wanna hire more specific talent, so like. or like ops and like you need to know more specific fields less than like being a generalist. So I think it's all about like that t learning Yeah. You need to know a little bit about everything, but you need to dive deep into one field and that's how you show your value as well to employers.

That's how you get promoted. And et cetera. So I think being intentional and finding what that is, if you don't know, like having conversations with other people in marketing and like trying to figure out where you wanna go down and then also relying on your Yeah. in this market is Mm-hmm.

As well, like especially people in marketing and sales, like you are expected nowadays to have a personal brand and like use LinkedIn and like be more vocal advocate for the company. So like traits that people are looking for are like, okay, like how out there are you? Like how are you gonna promote the brand? Like how can you go above and beyond?

So those are traits that I look both in marketing and in sales when I'm hiring is like to see much of their network like they're able to build. So I think relying on network is super, super important. And this is something that is gonna be even more with AI Yeah, play because you need to build connections with people. 'cause AI is only gonna get you so far.

Like everyone's gonna have the same Yeah. same cover letter, the same everything. So how do you show your true value by being who you are? so many LinkedIn jobs now have like hundreds of applications within a few minutes, and a lot of them are, 'cause we're hiring as well.

And we hire writers and clearly written by chat GPD and you're just like, do you think I'm not gonna be able to tell that it's written by like, I guess maybe for other jobs it's okay, but for writing, like we need to know that you can actually write as well. So sometimes it kind of blows my mind. I've, what I've noticed has really piqued my interest when reviewing applications. Is when they connect it to your company.

Exactly. So when they're like, 'cause one of the questions we ask is like, what are your goals? Three to four, three to five year goals or whatever. And it's like if they're able to say, whatever, this is my goal.

And also this is kind of in line with what you guys do and what you, your mission and everything. That always piques my interest. 'cause I'm like, okay, clearly they've done a bit of research and that's always nice. So it's interesting how, when I think when you're applying, putting yourself in the perspective constantly of the hiring manager or the company or whatever really helps.

And also there's something in this market now called the Hidden Job market, What's that? that I have experienced a lot, which is I have a lot of recruiters reaching out to me on Mm-hmm. job opportunities. And they're all confidential, so they're Oh, interesting.

been posted anywhere. But we have the job here for you, and this is happening more and more. So I started asking recruiters like, why are you not posting jobs anymore? And everyone is like, because the moment that we post jobs, we get.

Thousands Oh wow, have thousands of people reaching out to us on LinkedIn that's crazy. over 5,000 profiles. So now like optimizing your LinkedIn for search is one of the top priorities because this is how you get found by recruiters and this is how they message you about opportunities and this is the easiest way for you to get through interviews. And even like, that's something I do every single year because even though I'm not looking to leave my job.

I wanna have those opportunities in there in case like, I always think it's good to like jump on interviews and Mm-hmm. see what's happening on the market, make sure that like you are being prepared in case something happens. So I think it's always good to like be having those conversations. So tapping into this hidden job market is also like one of the key things now because a lot of the jobs are not anywhere to be seen.

That's crazy. Yeah, that's really, that's a really good point. So if anyone listening wants to learn more about Tech Talk and go to one of your, are you gonna do more events? Because I saw you did a big one recently, congratulations.

And I saw you did a TED Talk as well, which must have been amazing and I watched it. It was really interesting. Yeah. Anyone listening where can they learn more or maybe participate or go to one of your events?

What's the best place to go to? for sure. We definitely wanna be doing more events. We're actually launching a new community next Cool.

that's gonna be our new hub. But you can find us mostly on Instagram tech Talk uk, or you can find us on our website, just Tech Talk uk dot cov. So anywhere, just reach out to us. We're here to help.

Amazing. Well, thanks so much, Joanna for coming on this. It has been super interesting to anyone listening. We're gonna be doing a conference on the 2nd of July and Joanna will hopefully be speaking there.

So if, you want to go deeper on attribution, please do join. Abbie, thanks so much for joining and looking forward to seeing you in July. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for listening. You can find show notes and information about guests at fintechmarketinghub. com forward slash podcast. And finally, huge thanks to Orama.

tv for producing this podcast. We look forward to having you on our next episode.