Best of the Back Catalogue | ebookers Bonus+ Rewards Programme (#778)

Speaker A: What happens to loyalty when the customer never visits your loyalty program? Today, customers are using AI to discover brands, evaluate options and make purchase decisions, changing the traditional path to engagement. Fayden is leading the discussion on what this shift means for loyalty leaders, where brands risk becoming invisible, and how organizations can prepare for a future where AI sits between the customer and the brand. Reserve your spot@loyaltyinsiders.com that's loyaltyinsiders.com. Welcome to let's Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I'm your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world. So welcome to this episode of let's Talk Loyalty, which for me, I have to say, is very much a trip down memory lane. So, as I mentioned to my guest, in fact, I used to work for the same company that she's now working for. And, um, essentially this is a lady by the name of Nicola Helfutt who is the loyalty program manager for online travel agency based out of London called Ebookers. So before we get into all of the background, I'd first of all like to welcome Nicola Helford to let's Talk Loyalty.

Speaker B: Hi, Paula. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: Great. Excellent. So, um, as I mentioned in the introduction, Nikki, first and foremost, I worked in Ebookers myself back in 2002, 2003, and it's a long time before there was any loyalty program. So I'd be dying to get into what, ah, Ebookers does in terms of loyalty. And in fact, we'll do maybe a bit background on the company. But before we do any of that, let's first of all get into my usual first question, as you know, which is literally talking about my guest's favorite loyalty statistic. So tell me, Nikki, what is your favorite loyalty statistic?

Speaker B: Well, my favorite one, and I double checked, I think this is a US statistic, but I seem to recall reading something similar for the UK as well, which is that the average consumer is a member of 14.8 loyalty programs.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Of those, they're active in around 6.5.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: I think that really resonated with me partly. I mean, I'm obviously, uh, a loyalty professional, a bit of a loyalty nerd. So I do sign up to a lot of programs, but I think even in general life, I know that one has a tendency to sign up to all sorts of different programs, all sorts of different things. And I think more and more companies and more and more types of industry are starting to introduce loyalty programs. And so that idea of the number of programmes that people are signed up to, the number of programs that people have to sort of understand, get their head around, kind of get. Get the mechanics of. I think when, yes. Remind ourselves as loyalty professionals of all of the different schemes that people are busy seeing and busy participating in, it's a really interesting one to consider. And then I think also on the flip side, there's that side of how many they actually engage with and the fact that we, you know, we're lucky if we're one of the 6.5 that they are engaging with and active in. Um, and I think that's something that loyalty program managers will definitely resonate with in terms of trying to keep your members active as well as just. Just having the members join themselves.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So I think that that's a really interesting one to kind of keep in mind. And in fact, I think I was. I was almost impressed that it was as many as that on average, because, you know, that's still quite a lot of us to be asking of consumers. But, um, yes, it's one that I try and bear in mind when I'm, um, trying to communicate. Especially when you've got changes to a program, for example, or. Yeah, the onboarding process, thinking about how many other things our customers have to think about and keep track of.

Speaker A: You're absolutely right, Nikki. Yes. And they're not just thinking about loyalty programs, obviously either. So it's one thing to say there's 14 programs, but they've got lives to lead. So you're right. Actually, I often have that, um, very clear, um, I suppose, concern about, uh, the ability to cut through and talk to people about something that matters to us, as you said, as professionals, but clearly is a drop in the ocean of their everyday life. Um, so I like that one. So that's a great one to get started with. So tell us, first of all then, Nikki, um, how did you get into loyalty? Like, where did your loyalty career start?

Speaker B: Well, it's been a, uh, sort of slightly windy journey across marketing to get here, really. And so, um, I started off. My sort of first real professional job was sort of in a very small company. We were six people and I was the sales and marketing department.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Started off as more of a sales role. I'd done some sales experience while I was busy traveling after university, so I. But I'd taken lots of sort of marketing options in my business degree. I always knew that marketing is a sort of more creative and interesting side of business that I wanted to get into. So um, I took the opportunity to build that into a sort of sales and marketing role, get some experience. Um, and I then moved over from that role after a few years to I went from a company of six people to Sainsbury's which is the second biggest supermarket chain in the uk. And obviously a lot of your listeners will be familiar with the Nectar program and obviously Sainsbury's is the main partner of that and now owner of that. Um, so it was a bit of a contrast going into a big company. Um, and my role was in fact in content. I used to do printed content and uh, I managed all of the recipe cards, the free magazines in store.

Speaker A: Nice. Brilliant.

Speaker B: I love that. And then when Sainsbury stopped doing printed content, um, I was sort of needing to find another role. Um, and it was right before Christmas. There weren't a lot of um, a lot of people busy leaving and leaving vacancies. Um, one of the roles that was available was working on the Nectar program. So you know, staying in the marketing department and doing sort of targeted communications is very much a sort of CRM role. But for next year promotional events. So I used to work on things like their double up events, their swipe and win, earn and burn promotional side of things. And that got me into the world of loyalty and CRM M so it was a slightly sort of random jump really. It wasn't particularly calculated and planned. But um, I think once I got into the loyalty world, understanding how interesting it is, I think it's an area of business and of marketing that's got a really interesting mixture of the commercial side of things, of kind of customer psychology and the psychology of buying behavior and incentivisation along with creativity with communications. I think it's a really great industry to be in in terms of the mixture of different skills. So uh, I really enjoyed it and I've stayed within the kind of CRM side of things. My following role was in the aa so Automobile association in the um, you American listeners know it as Triple A is the equivalent but there's some different versions around the world and that was working on membership and CRM. So again there was the CRM and communication side of that but very much with a loyalty element in a very different context. Mhm. So moving from supermarkets, which is very much the kind of heartland of points and loyalty to something that's much, much more. It's almost a sort of insurance side and the AA as well as sort of breakdown cover has financial services and car insurance and things. So it was moving from Classic loyalty into the industry. That's sort of the hardest and notoriously most difficult I'm sure. Yeah. Doing that kind of, you've got a once a year, once a year renewal cadence. It's not something that people are engaging with every week and seeing value in every week or every day in some cases with grocery.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And trying to get that sort of engagement with the brand in the sort of 364 days of the year where they're probably not interacting with you or you're probably not crossing their mind. And yeah, people that break down, they renew because generally they see the value and also they have a good experience. We were good at that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For people that don't, how do you instill loyalty and get them when it comes to their renewal time of year to want to re engage with the brand and stick with us? So that was an interesting kind of different aspect of loyalty that built my, my sort of more rounded view I think of loyalty as a whole. Ah, and then an opportunity came up with Expedia Group, um, in travel which obviously is the other kind of really big part of the loyalty industry. So I feel like I've got a bit of a trifecta of grocery, of travel and of financial ah, services. Um, so it was an interesting and really sort of cool opportunity for me to then look at another very different aspect of loyalty with travel and plus loyalty program which is the one that we have at Ebookers, which is part of Expedia Group. Mhm. And it was an interesting program and meant that I've sort of now been heading that up for about three years now and had a really great time in doing so and learning about travel and travel loyalty and all sorts of great stuff.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Well, we'll get into talking about the program of course Nikki and I suppose just for listeners, a couple of things I wanted to pick up on that you mentioned. Um, there's actually quite a lot of listeners in the US as well. Um, so they may be less familiar with Nectar. So that I suppose for those listeners or anyone who's outside the UK is a hugely well respected coalition program. Um, so incredible expertise and very much run I suppose independently of the individual partners. So I can imagine you got a phenomenal amount of experience working for someone like Nectar and as you said then ah, into the insurance space almost with the aa. Um, it's less sexy let's say. Um, and then obviously ending up in the ultimate. So I think we share a passion for travel I mentioned to you as well as ebookers, I Also worked in the airline business. But I think what I always love Nikki about M Ebookers was, first of all, I know it was the very first online travel agency in the uk. I was rereading back on my history, uh, established what, 1998. What happens to loyalty when the customer never visits your loyalty program? Today, customers are using AI to discover brands, evaluate options and make purchase decisions, changing the traditional path to engagement. Fayden is leading the discussion on what this shift means for loyalty leaders, her brand's risk becoming invisible, and how organizations can prepare for a future where AI sits between the customer and the brand. Reserve your spot@, uh, loyaltyinsiders.com that's loyaltyinsiders.com?

Speaker B: yes, that's correct.

Speaker A: Incredible. And a couple of acquisitions along the way. And as you said, now part of the Expedia group and there's other brands within that group. But I know we're only going to talk about ebookers today. But as I said, Certainly back in 2002 and 2003, there was no talk of loyalty, um, when I worked with Ebookers. And I suppose at the time it had come to, um, literally just educating consumers about the opportunity to book flights online, which I know is very different to the business that you're running now. Um, and I know you also, by the way, inherited the loyalty program. I don't think you built it yourself, but it looks like a really, um, clear and effective program. So I'd love to just, um, maybe if you don't mind just talking through what the value proposition is of the program just so that, uh, listeners can get a sense of what E Brokers is actually doing in the loyalty space.

Speaker B: Absolutely, yes. And I think it's a really great program that I've been lucky enough to inherit. So, um, I'm definitely, uh, mindful of that. It's a really simple and really generous program. And I think that's what really makes it stand out, um, in the marketplace. And what really stood out to me as a lawyer professional is finding that it was a great one to be able to take the reins on. So, uh, our program is called Bonus plus M. It's essentially got a sort of an earn and burn underlying element and then there are tiers, so a kind of tiering proposition on top of that. So, um, what's really great about it, and you know, one of the sort of main selling points I think for us in the world of loyalty, kind of coming back to that, uh, idea of customers having lots of different loyalty programs to have to understand and keep track Of I think it's simplicity is one of its strongest things. And from a loyalty professional perspective, having something that's simple to communicate obviously is really helpful too. So customers earn a sort of a monetary amount of credit as opposed to being points that they then have to understand the value of and convert uh, in their heads to a uh, monetary amount. So I think that kind of, we do a lot of the maths for people and I think that uh, is something that customers appreciate. So you earn as a percentage of your booking. So for example on flights you earn 1%. Um, so £100 on a flight you'd earn £1 in bonus plus. Uh, we obviously operate in different markets as well across Europe. So Swiss francs for example, it's the same um, in Switzerland obviously euros for a lot of our points of sale, including Ireland too. Um, so it's literally sort of displayed right next to your booking amount of the amount you earn in bonus plus is €2 50. And I think that's something that is really helpful for us um, in terms of having our uh, members really understand the value that they're getting. So there's a 1% earn on flights. We uh, do 2% on packages and 3% on hotel standalone bookings.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, and then we also have higher earn rates in our app, so 2, 3 and 5% respectively to kind of encourage our customers to engage on our app platform. And the app offers lots of other great bits of functionality that are really helpful reminders and alerts and things. So it's good that once our um, members, particularly the more engaged members that are traveling and booking a lot, get the value of the loyalty program in the app, they also get lots of other benefits when they um, when they engage with us on that platform as well.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So there's no redemption floor, which is another really great part of our program. So you know, if you're booking three hotels in a row, you can take the earnings off the first booking and take that off the second booking and get the redemption right away, which I think is another great feature. And obviously um, um, I know that's something that we as loyalty professionals talk about a lot is the redemption. And it's that moment of truth when people get the value of the program. So rather than having to collect thousands and thousands of points to be able to eventually hope to get a redemption and possibly never reach that, you know, I think that often plays into that six and a half other loyalty programs that people are members of and aren't active in. I think that uh, that's often part of what creates that scenario. So the fact that people can save up and we get people that, you know, making lots of bookings and get a really big balance and then they can book you know, a whole weekend away in a nice hotel and it's entirely paid for ah, using their bonus plus credit. But you can also sort of see the value right away if you like. Um, and our redemptions are on hotel bookings.

Speaker A: Uh, okay.

Speaker B: So it means that often it plays into that more sort of treat element of things. So you know we often talk about the um, reward as being, it can be quite functional and just money off. But often when people are doing for example booking their business, travel perhaps or mixture of business and leisure, they then want to book a really nice, you know, sort of five star hotel for a long weekend perhaps and they can use their redemption against that and it starts creating a bit more of a kind of emotional value to them in that respect.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Well, I mean I think the first thing to pick up on is um, it's incredible to see that the um, the app bookings get a ah, double on flights as you said, 2% instead of 1 and then 3 and 5% on your packages and hotels. So I always love, actually even when I work for clients, I love when there's a single minded objective for loyalty which is, you know, let's encourage people to behave in this way rather than asking them to jump through too many hoops. So I think as you said there's a lot of um, clarity of thinking from the business coming through there and you know, I can't imagine what the breakdown is. But as you said I'm sure you've got plenty of business travelers and they might be tempted to book on, you know, just on the normal website but obviously if they're going to get twice the rewards they'll go straight for the app. So that sounds super exciting.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And that means we get a lot more engagement in the loss of program encourages a lot of engagement from customers that are generally more engaged with us as a brand. So I think that's really great that we sort of give more reward on that kind of behavior.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I suppose as you think through the travel journey as well, like it seems so straightforward to book all of your travel at your desk, maybe back at home or you know, in your normal kind of working environment. But then I guess when you do get to your destination it's even more important to have your travel agency on your phone so that you can connect with anything that you need to check on. So I can kind of see the longer term thinking as well, because, you know, there's a better service opportunity when you can be with the consumer because they'll always have their phone with them obviously when they go. So that makes an awful lot of sense as well. And I know I did ask you, but again, for the sake of listeners, it is obviously an online travel agency, as I said at the beginning, Nikki, um, but you don't issue any cards. I know even though it's digital sometimes some programs do feel that's important in the hotel or travel industry. But I know you have tiers, so tell us about some of the tiers that you have.

Speaker B: Yes. So on top of the basic earn and burn sort of side of things, uh, we have our three tiers. So entry level is silver, which is when people sign up. And then they can progress to gold and to platinum. And we do that based on the number of room nights that they've stayed with us. So once members reach gold, they unlock some of our first level of benefits. So we do things like, uh, reimbursements. We use the loyalty currency, um, to offer reimbursement to things like uh, luggage charges or some of their data roaming charges, things like that that they incur whilst they're traveling. So they, they can then get that back into their account as bonus plus credit. And obviously because we work in a sort of currency amount of our credit, then it's much more sort of straightforward for them to understand the value proposition of that. Um, so we give reimbursements. We also offer, um, perks and benefits at our VIP access hotel program. So within Expedia Group, uh, we have, I mean the numbers rising all the time, but it's, I think last I knew was around about 6,000 global hotels and properties, um, that are within our VIP access program. Um, and so whenever members who are gold or platinum tier check in at those properties, um, they get extra perks and benefits. So they're labeled on our site when you book them. And um, it can range from things like meal vouchers, spa credit, um, room upgrades for platinum. So that's one of our sort of platinum benefits as well as whatever the kind of value add perk uh, that they get is where they're available. Um, so where there is an upgradable room that is free at the property when they check in, then they can get um, upgrades on that as well. Okay, so, so we also have some benefits that aren't across all of our markets, but in the UK and Ireland we also offer free airport lounge classes.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So once members reach gold they get one each year and once they're platinum they get two. Uh, so that means that they can also kind of experience an extra luxury, extra perks whilst they're traveling. And it's a really, really popular benefit of ours and really entire incentivizes people to want to maintain their tier.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Yeah. I was looking at your benefits and I was thinking actually uh, before I had a lounge pass, like I really kind of dismissed it but now that I have a lounge pass, I, you

Speaker B: know, once you've done it, once you've done it, you don't want to go back. It's, it's a, ah, slippery slope. Definitely.

Speaker A: It's easy to get spoiled. Eh. Um, and just because you mentioned the other European countries, Nikki, so how many countries in total is ebookers operating the loyalty program in?

Speaker B: Ah, so we are in seven, uh, seven different markets. We have actually a small brand that's part of ebookers group that's under the Mr. Jet uh, brand in.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Sweden. So we have Mr. Jet rewards as the program in Sweden and ebookers we're in six markets under bonus plus as the loyalty program and under ebookers as a brand. So the uk, uh, Finland and Switzerland are sort of main, main biggest ones. But also we operate in France, Germany and as of course, you know, Ireland as well.

Speaker A: Of course. Yeah, yeah. And I was telling you before we came on air that we did a huge amount together. So ah, at the time Dublin was the European um, headquarters for ebookers in terms of both the call center and actually just in terms of E commerce. And I was thinking about it actually again a bit of nostalgia when you were mentioning about, you know, showing the benefits alongside in that booking journey because I think again as digital marketing, anything you can do to drive. What I know ebookers used to call, I don't know if they still use this term. We used to call it the look to book ratio. Do you still use that term Maybe, maybe more on the business side?

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think we do. I think we sort of have a. We would certainly recognize that but I don't think we use that terminology for it.

Speaker A: Okay, there you go. So I'm showing my age now, but certainly yes. When ebookers and when E commerce was a child, I think there was, yeah, there was piece around driving conversion which again you can see the simplicity of that thinking coming through there. Um, and very powerful. The other piece I really wanted to get a sense of Nicky was I suppose the KPIs, um, what do you measure in terms of, um, the overall program and what is it, I suppose, that keeps you up at night?

Speaker B: Um, I think probably the most important um, KPI that I look at and give most attention to, um, is around active members, uh, which obviously, having talked about people becoming inactive in loyalty programs is something that um, is a really important one for me. So the number of active members within our group is really important. I think also probably the, what we call transaction penetration. So the number of, of bookings on our site that are made by members versus non members.

Speaker A: Very good.

Speaker B: And that's one that I think is probably a more important indicator in terms of the business context because numbers of active members is very much sort of dependent on a broader landscape of the number of bookings that we've got. But when you look at, there's sort of context to that, as when you look at the transaction penetration, it's a representation of what the loyalty program specifically is driving within that. So I think from a loyalty perspective, rather than perhaps a more commercial perspective, M that's a really important one for me. Um, but I also look at things like just the numbers of earned transactions that we've got and in particular the number of earned transactions, so the numbers of redemptions that we're seeing. Because as you know, as we know that redemption side of things, that moment of truth is so important when it comes to building that loyalty and that relationship with the member.

Speaker A: M and obviously, you know, as we've talked about before on this show, um, you know, behavior is being impacted, particularly in travel with the current pandemic. So have you done anything within the loyalty program as a result of COVID 19?

Speaker B: We have. Um, and it's actually something that has been a really interesting thing to have, have to think about as a loyalty professional, uh, and particularly in the travel world, like you say, um, and there's been a lot that's done across the industry. It's something that obviously I think we've all been keeping a very close eye on in terms of looking at trends and looking at what kind of different companies and different sectors are doing as well. So for example, air miles and sort of flights versus hotel chains versus OTAs. I think they're kind of different considerations for each area. So, um, we have been looking to mitigate, um, with members. I think one thing that I have been really mindful of, I think as a sort of marketing professional, as a loyalty professional, is understanding not only what we do, but how we communicate it. And when we communicate it. I think, you know, in a time like this it's important to think about the customer and think about what's on their mind, what's important to them. And I think my approach has been that probably in, in the midst of the worst of things and I think in particular when we consider the fact that we're also in lots of different markets, so you know, the crisis has hit different countries at different times and in different ways and with different levels of seriousness. M to make sure there's a sensitivity around what we do and when we communicate things and what's at the top of our customers minds. I think there was a lot of pressure, uh, I think within the industry and within marketing as a whole for lots of companies to sort of be seen to be doing something right away. Um, and I think it depends on the law mechanics as well of kind of some of the structures of the program. It's more important to communicate more quickly. Um, so for example, with our loyalty credit, each amount of credit that is earned, uh, has a 12 month expiry. So people have points expiring or sort of credit expiring in phases depending on when they've earned it. I think there are some loyalty programs where there's a sort of rolling expiry date and your entire balance expires at one.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So I understand that with certain programs I think the approach needs to be different based on sort of the implications of the structure of the program. So um, I think for some of those programs if people's full balance was expiring and they couldn't travel, they couldn't book, I think there was a different need to sort of try and mitigate that right away. Um, the way that our program is, for me it felt like it was the wrong thing to jump too quickly into something that was probably not our customer's biggest concern at the time. I think, um, from everything that's going on, and you know, you obviously need to be mindful of the fact that some people will have, you know, been very ill themselves, will have, you know, have close family and friends that have been very ill or worse, you know, is the fact that a proportion of their loyalty credit is going to expire and they can't use it on their highest list of concerns. Probably M not. Um, and so I think it can come across the wrong way if you communicate the wrong message at the wrong time. So what I've been mindful of is trying to take action when people's mindset is right for it. So as we're sort of beginning of June now. We're um, coming into a time where in most of our markets the worst of things is hopefully over. It seems like the worst of things is over. And also in terms of things like travel restrictions, those are being lifted a little bit. People have the ability to at least start thinking about travel as booking travel. You know, they might not be traveling for another few months or another year. M. But the mindset around wanting to, to start to plan, to travel, to potentially go and see family, it's becoming a bit more reality now. And so it feels to me more sensible to mitigate for things like points expiring, um, when people weren't able to make any bookings or certainly couldn't confidently make any bookings without knowing what was going to happen, what restrictions were going to be in place. I think, you know, taking a look, understanding to the customer that we see that you've missed out on something that you've earned and you shouldn't have missed out on because of what was going on and making sure that we mitigate that. So, you know, give them more time to use that credit when they have the ability to actually do so.

Speaker A: Wow, I like that, Nikki. It's very quietly reassuring. Um, and I hadn't really thought about it, you know, in terms of, as you said, there's just so much going on for people. They might have lost jobs, they might have lost loved ones, as you said. So, you know, as businesses, again, it's tempting to jump in with them with solutions, but um, may not be appropriate. But as you said, hopefully now in the coming months. In fact I even saw today I was looking at the Maldives or talking about opening up as well, which um, you know, was exciting for me because I love to dream about traveling all over the place. So really nice to see all of that. And then I suppose that the last area I really wanted to cover off um, is beyond ebookers, I suppose just in general, as you said, you're um, a ah, busy, uh, loyalty professional, um, working and living in one of the most exciting, I think loyalty markets in the world. So I know you mentioned a couple of other programs that you're a fan of just I suppose as a consumer. So maybe just. Would you mind just telling us about any other programs that you admire or tend to follow.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think in the last few years in particular, loyalty has become, and certainly in a market like the UK that's quite a mature market in this space. It's become really exciting because I think there's been A bit of a push from companies whether they're revamping loyalty programs or whether they're launching new ones. I think there's been uh, a bit of a trend away from the very classic just earn points, burn points. And there's a lot of. I know you have a lot of discussions every week about this and a lot of discussions in the industry about, you know, are points dead or you know, is Adam Burns kind of dead and tired? And I don't, I don't think it is, but I think that there certainly has been a sense of lots of companies wanting to do something different. Yes. And so that's been really exciting because it's, it's um, brought out a lot of really interesting ideas. So people have tried to be really creative about the mechanics, about what sorts of things that they can reward, what, what kinds of rewards they offer. Um, so I think some of the kind of more out the box ones are the ones that I particularly like or those that have a bit of a twist perhaps. Uh, but I also do, you know, I do still like an urn and burn and obviously having worked on Nectar for many years as well I'm particularly fond of. I'll always have a bit of a soft spot for Nectar and engagement in Nectar. Um, I think one that always comes up about the UK is Boots, um, just because it's a very generous program and it's very simple to understand and it fundamentally its points. So it's quite simple. But some of them are some of the more interesting ones that I really admire. Um, I think TK Max, um, have quite an interesting one their treasure program and that rewards based on number of transactions. So it's not around spend. Okay. And one thing I quite like about that, which I think a lot of points programs have a bit of a trade off on is there's no sort of elitism around just rewarding people that have a lot of money to spend and particularly yeah things like some air miles where you have to be often in the sort of that top 20% that we know give us the top 80% of our revenue. But it is only the kind of the often the better off and those that sort of are less notice less, less the level of the rewards compared to someone that's perhaps not in that very, very high spend bracket. So I think programs that were based on number of transactions, I think it's a bit of an indicator of share of wallet and engagement in the brand and it's also something that kind of democratizes loyalty a bit better and they also have sort of, it's more of a surprise and delight mechanic in terms of the rewards. So you have a selection. Once you reach a certain number of transactions, there's a choice of rewards that you can pick, but they're not sort of necessarily always the same or always going to be the same each time you reach that threshold again. So they do some, some interesting things that give that element of choice and they do some surprise and delight stuff. They sent me a nice box of lint heart shaped chocolates on Valentine's Day. Lovely. Just because. And you know, so they're, they're a nice things like that that they do. Um, so I think that's one. And even just the fact that it's. The program is called Treasure and it's all around treasure seekers, it really links with the mindset of people that shop at TK Maxx, which I have to confess, I do a lot. Yeah. Um, is that kind of finding something that's different, that's a bit of a gem that you won't find everywhere else and not everyone else is going to have. And so I think that the sort of branding of that is really cool. So I'm a fan of that one.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Great. Well, you've picked up on a couple of ones there as well, Nikki, which as you mentioned, Boots is one that I think globally is particularly well respected. Um, and as you said, it's partly because of the generosity of the program and I know it's a 4% reward rate on that one because everyone talks about it, but also again, just because Boots, you know, certainly in Ireland was one of our biggest, um, pharmacies as well. I think it was just at the point of sale there was such a great experience that every single person at the till would make sure they you about the Boots Advantage card. So I know for you guys as an online operator it's probably harder to have that same experience. Um, but as you said, it's going through every single transaction. But I think it's something that we talk about a lot again, as loyalty professionals to say, okay, how often can we remind these customers that we genuinely want to care? And uh, as you said, the whole treasure positioning of TK Maxx, that sounds like a gorgeous program and one I'll definitely have to check out next time I'm in the uk.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, interesting that you mentioned Boots as well because coming back to the app conversation, the Boots app on their Advantage Card proposition is really a lot more generous than in store. So above, uh, the basic 4% earn. They do lots of coupons, lots of much more generous coupons I find, than the ones that you get just printed out as a sort of coupon until printout when you're in store. So I think again, they obviously have that element of rewarding customers that are much more engaged with the brand and doing that kind of based up weighting of rewards. So they do that really well too.

Speaker A: Great. Well, I've learned a lot, Nikki. Now I have to say I certainly didn't know that Boots did anything special in their app. Um, I knew ebookers did because you told me about it already. But I really do like the structure strategy that you guys are using for the ebookers program. Um, so I've certainly learned loads. Um, I think it's a very exciting journey that you're on. Um, is there anything else that you wanted to mention before we wrap up the show?

Speaker B: Um, I think it's just echoing the fact that it's a sort of interesting time for loyalty. I think loyalty is something that we as professionals often think about in a very sort of, of transactional commercial way because obviously we work in businesses where that's part of it. And I think it'll be really interesting over time with some of the new mechanics that are coming out. And I think obviously also with um, Covid and the way that customer behavior is changing and customer lives are changing, I think it's going to be interesting to see how different brands and different industries react to that. Um, and also how customers react is the part that loyalty plays in that. And you know, I always feel that there's sort of transaction. You know, we talk a lot about emotional loyalty, um, in the industry and you've got that kind of transactional loyalty which is the very much the functional carrot and then you've got that kind of, is that customer a true lover of the brand, advocate of the brand. At what point does that kind of point of the self actualization that is, you know, somebody who is truly loyal to a brand, who loves the brand. Um, and I think that perhaps the way that a lot of brands respond in this current climate is possibly going to dictate what the kind of next generation of true brand loyalty looks like.

Speaker A: Absolutely, Nikki. Well, I mean, I think you made the point really well earlier already. Um, you know, it's not the first thing on people's mind given the ah, pandemic that that is going on. But um, it's very important to be around when people need you. And I think you're only now going to start emerging and showing people exactly what ebookers is all about. So yeah, I just want to say it's been super interesting and very fond memories for me as I said for 18 years ago from my ebookers days. So just want to say Nikki Halford, uh, thanks a million from let's Talk Loyalty.

Speaker B: Thank you so much.

Speaker A: This show is sponsored by Wise Marketeer Group. Operating the Wise Marketeer and Loyalty Academy for nearly 25 years, the wise Marketer is the industry's longest serving publication and source for news, information and insights, which now includes its own branded industry research, insights and advice for global coverage of customer engagement and loyalty. Check out out thewisemarketer.com and become a Wiser Marketer member or subscriber. The Loyalty Academy sets a global industry standard for loyalty education with its, uh, Certified Loyalty marketing professional, or CLMP designation, which has created a community of more than 1200 marketing executives and professionals across more than 50 countries countries. Learn more about global loyalty education for individuals or corporate training@loyaltyacademy.org thank you so much for listening to this episode of let's Talk Loyalty. If you'd like us, uh, to send you the latest shows each week, simply sign up for the let's Talk loyalty newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com and, uh, we'll send our best episodes straight to your inbox. And don't forget that you can follow let's Talk Loyalty on any of your favorite podcast platforms. And of course, we'd love for you to share your feedback and reviews. Thanks again for supporting the show.

Speaker B: Sam m.