Best of the Back Catalogue | Gamification and Loyalty Innovation at Dell (#782)

Speaker A: What happens to loyalty when the customer never visits your loyalty program? Today, customers are using AI to discover brands, evaluate options and make purchase decisions, changing the traditional path to engagement. Fayden is leading the discussion on what this shift means for loyalty leaders, where brands risk becoming invisible, and how organizations can prepare for a future where AI sits between the customer and the brand. Reserve your spot@loyaltyinsiders.com that's loyalty insiders.com.

Speaker B: Welcome to let's Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing professionals. I'm your host, Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing, join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around the world. So welcome to the latest episode of let's Talk Loyalty. And before I get into introducing my guest today, I first of all wanted to celebrate a mini milestone in that I've been able to get out of lockdown and get into my professional recording studio. So for the first time in three months, it's fantastic not to be just working from home and to be back in a professional environment, uh, obviously with mask in hand. But I have to say it feels really good to have a sense of normality. The other thing I wanted to say is just a huge thanks to my friends in Epsilon who introduced me to the fantastic guy we're going to have a conversation with today. And I think all of you probably, uh, appreciate the amount of time and effort it takes really just to get somebody of this caliber on a call, particularly from a global brand and one that you all know and love. So without further ado, I am going to welcome Mitch Kennedy, who is the global loyalty strategy lead for Dell based in Austin, Texas, to let's Talk Loyalty.

Speaker C: Thanks for the invite. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: Great to have you here, Mitch. And I know you've been off on leave, so it's probably crazy busy on your end, but, um, I'm super happy to get into your calendar before anything else does.

Speaker C: Yeah, you know, it's the adjustment coming back from having taken a week off just to mentally get yourself to re engage and ah, yeah, don't open the

Speaker B: email for a while. I think that's my advice.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Great stuff. So, Mitch, listen, there's so many fantastic subjects we've talked about before offline. Um, you're doing some amazing work there with the Dell Advantage loyalty program. Um, but before we get into all of your kind of career background and some of your favorite loyalty topics, I just first of all wanted to start with my usual question, which is what is your favorite loyalty statistic?

Speaker C: You know, it's funny the, and this is an old statistic and it's not, um, one of like sort of earth shattering insider revelation. But I always come back to the idea. And like I said, the statistic is old. But I read a number of years ago that in the US the average person is a member of 18 loyalty programs and engaged in one. And I always try to keep that in mind because it's very easy, particularly in a larger organization when you have people trying to sort of push down KPIs on you and membership is one of them. And I always have to sort of use that statistic. It's like the one that I throw out all the time, uh, to say, listen, membership is in the KPI. I don't really care how big the program is. That doesn't speak to efficacy. I could streamline membership if you, you know, if you want to pay me a bonus on how many members I have, I'll be a rich man. Right. I can make that work. Um, but that doesn't mean that I'm driving positive outcomes. So.

Speaker A: Sure, sure.

Speaker B: Brilliant. Well, my God, 18 to 1. And I know they vary around the world, Mitch, but certainly, you know, I know how few loyalty programs I engage with and this is our profession. So, uh, you're absolutely right. We often sign up and we don't, uh, we don't bother after that. So it's a tough job we're doing.

Speaker C: Right. I always think it's interesting too, and I'm curious if you and the people listening are the same way. When you're in a store and they ask you, do you want to join the loyalty program? Someone who actually manages loyalty programs. If I sign up, it's out of curiosity, but for the most part I'm

Speaker B: m. Like, no, you know, I see it as a direct challenge, Mitch. So, um, I use that particular question to test whether they've executed well, so whether they've trained their staff. So I'm a nightmare customer. If you want to ask me to join your loyalty program, I'm going to ask why. And I'm really going to dig into can they articulate that? Because again, there's no point building a loyalty program if they're not passionate about it at the point of sale. So, yeah, I'm a tough customer.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. I was at a store yesterday actually, and I had a very unique experience where as I was checking out, it came up on the screen to join the loyalty program. And the person checking me out told me to click no.

Speaker B: What?

Speaker C: Yeah, they just said, oh, you know, because you Know, you go through the screens. Uh, yeah. And then they're. The person was like, check. No.

Speaker B: Oh no.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Like you guys have gotten on the off the rails somewhere here. I don't think that was the preferred customer experience.

Speaker B: No, no. My God, that's hilarious. Well, hopefully nobody does that with the Dell program.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, it just goes to show you too, when you have a retail outlet at the end of the, you know, you can sit back and have all of these very imaginative, very innovative um, processes but at the end of that, that trail is going to be an employee that probably doesn't care all that. Right. Probably doesn't care all that much. And so you need to take that into account.

Speaker B: Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. So I'd love to get a sense of your program. First of all, Mitch, um, I know you've done, I think it's over five years now in a number of roles with Dell and the Advantage program. I didn't know a lot about actually. It's not um, a program I'd seen in my home country of Ireland for example. I don't think it's live here in the uae, but obviously it's a massive program in the Canada, I think Brazil and lots of other countries around the world. So tell us exactly about the program.

Speaker C: Well, Dell's. From a loyalty perspective, Dell's sort of a unique entity in that we have a really kind of long purchase, ah, cycle. And so the Dell Advantage program, it has evolved quite a bit over the last number of years and it's about to evolve a great deal more. Um, as it's currently constructed, it's basically a transactional rewards program. Um, we, we pay out transactional rewards, uh, at sets, amounts based on revenue generated from select customer groups.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Um, the outcome of that, you know, the objectives as currently constructed are pretty straightforward. Right. We're looking to drive uh, transaction velocity, um, maintain some level of engagement in between large purchases and get loyalty outcomes basically out of that very narrow sort of defined program benefit. Um, we're evolving that to a, um, much more nuanced, much more expanded, uh, program that's more focused on the customer experience, um, but it's currently constructed, it's a very transactional program. Now to be fair, it does that effectively. Right. I'm not discounting the impact of that. But realistically, right now as we're currently constructed, we're buying transactions. Um, we're doing that thoughtfully and selectively, but at the end of the day that's what we're doing.

Speaker B: Okay. And it is a consumer program And a small business program. Am I right?

Speaker C: Correct? Correct. Currently active in us, Canada, Brazil, uk.

Speaker B: Okay, fantastic.

Speaker C: We have some mini programs in other markets that I'm using to test some new concepts or I'm about to use to test new concepts.

Speaker B: Wonderful gamification stuff. Okay, well, we'll definitely get in. I think we discussed. I think we're both, um, mutually fascinated by the concepts of gamification. And as you said, transactional programs, they have a logic, they have a function, they definitely drive some behavior. But I think as the world evolves, there's definitely a need to be more engaging. So are you at the early stages of that or where are you at?

Speaker C: Very early stages. But, uh, we have a sort of organizational commitment to walk that path. Um, and given a, that's a testament to Dell in that given Dell's size and complexity of the business, that's not an easy path to walk. Right. You're committing to some level of pain in the short term to make that, that level of change. And yeah, one of the things I like about Dallas is organizationally I've seen a lot of courage you can be. You know, I come from sort of an entrepreneurial background and I was really worried about working for a large company because I was afraid that I couldn't be innovative. And what I'm, I've been pleasantly surprised by was, is Dell sort of willingness to take a unique look at something. I mean, to sit in a meeting and have, and to be able to say, I don't know that we're asking the right question and to have people stop and go, okay, well, let's talk about that. What, what is the right question? And to me that's where innovation comes from, is the ability to step back and redefine the question. And Dell has an organizational willingness to do that that I found very surprising. And that for me, that makes it very exciting because I can, um, be innovative at scale. Although I was la the other day, I said, when I sold Dell on the idea of, of making some pretty dramatic changes. Yeah, you know, having a point of view is all well and good until a hundred billion dollar company goes, okay, let's do it. And then you're like, uh, I thought we're just two guys talking here. I'm not willing to go that far. I mean, I'm not saying I'm right. I just. It's so, it's exciting times where we're in the process of sort of reimagining

Speaker B: ourselves, but it takes a lot of courage as well. For you, Mitch, Even to take that approach because as you said, you know, the whole thing, you know, it can go, you know, lots of different ways. There's lots of unforeseeable factors. I know you're a very curious man. You've told me you read a lot and there's some amazing concepts out there which I know you're just dying to try.

Speaker C: Yeah. Ah, you know, my wife would argue that I'm, um, I'm often wrong but never uncertain. Um, and so yeah, I have a willingness to say, actually, you know, it's funny, I think there's, there's loyalty is an interesting thing to me in that there's been a lot of very smart people that have done a great deal of research.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and so there's a lot of knowledge, there's a great deal of a knowledge base out there that you can tap into.

Speaker A: What happens to loyalty when the customer never visits your loyalty program? Today, customers are using AI to discover brands, evaluate options and make purchase decisions, changing the traditional path to engagement. Fadan is leading the discussion on what this shift means for loyalty leaders, where brands risk becoming invisible and how organizations can prepare for a future where AI sits between the customer and the brand. Reserve your spot@loyalty insiders.com that's loyalty insiders.com.

Speaker C: I would argue that my, my skill set is just basically a willingness to, to comb through that, find something that resonates with me and having willingness to apply. Um, some of that comes from an entrepreneurial background. You know, to get, to get clients, basically you had to be willing to propose a course of action that wasn't apples to apples. You know, I always laughed. You know, no one got fired for hiring IBM. Yeah, they hired Joe Blow and his merry band of consultants, you know, from some no name agency. They could get fired. And so, um, yeah, that's sort of where it came from.

Speaker B: And Dell hired Mitch Kennedy. Yeah, well done Dell.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was funny. You know I, I started at Dell and I was just doing analytics.

Speaker B: Um, okay.

Speaker C: And so it was sort of an interesting experience to ah, to sit down and, and you know they, my first day they gave me this, this, all these dashboards and it was very interesting that I'm like these aren't the right questions. Like you're not, you're not looking at the right data here. Um, you know, like what are your, what are the objectives here? What are you, what are you trying to accomplish? And let's talk about whether there's a path to get there. And so pretty quickly I think I sort of migrated out of that role.

Speaker B: Um, okay.

Speaker C: But yeah, it was interesting, you know, I was the first big boy company I work for where, you know,

Speaker B: where you were led to have an entrepreneurial mindset, because I know that's where you came from. Tell us exactly, you know, the kind of background. It was much more startup land, wasn't it, in terms of your career?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Um, actually, it was interesting. You know, my, my first foray into anything similar close to loyalty. I had started a yield management company in the travel industry, specifically golf. Um, but we envisioned ourselves as a software company and we had to make a pretty rapid transition when we ran out of money. And we had the choice between having to go home and tell our wives that, hey, we weren't gonna make the house payment or find, uh, a new way to do this. And what we figured out was that no one really knew how to use this great software. And so we flipped it on its head and um, turned it into basically, uh, we will use the software on your behalf. Um, and as little as we knew, we seemed to know more than anybody else. And that was disturbing on one level and an opportunity on another. And so that's sort of what opened it up to sort of member based, um, efforts to drive loyalty outcomes. How do I drive frequency? And I didn't recognize it as loyalty at the time. I just now do, looking back. How do I drive frequency? Um, how do I drive sort of engagement with my clients and all that.

Speaker B: Wonderful. And I used to work in the airline industry actually, Mitch, many years ago. And I always said it's the yield management guys have all the power.

Speaker C: Yeah. You know what was funny? We did, we were so wrong about so many things and. But it was funny because you, uh, uh, there's, there's great outcomes in being wrong sometimes. What we found was that, um, we could not get somebody to spend more money on, on golf. We could just shape where they spent it.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And, and I can remember talking to, I'm the one that did all the business development. And so I, I remember talking to a guy and he was like, um, oh my gosh, that's extortion. And I was like, no, no, it's not. And then, then I remember getting in my car going kind of, you know, I mean, like, like, who owns the customer, owns a great deal. And.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: And by applying sort of best practices from a loyalty and engagement perspective. You own the customer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that, that was sort of the objective and I kind of opened my eyes to that. And then once I Moved from there. Yeah, I started seeing and then I started getting some exposures of point based systems and then that sort of opened up gamification and some other things. Um, it's very easy in a point based system to get off track.

Speaker B: Sure. Oh, of course, Absolutely.

Speaker C: And I always say in loyalty, it's very easy to change. It's just very hard to change back. So, yeah, you've got to be really careful. Like, people go, how hard would it be to do whatever? Not a problem at all. It's very hard to get out of that if we're wrong. And so you have to be a little careful.

Speaker B: So how did you end up in Dell? And really, I mean, it's such a different lifestyle and a corporate experience, you know, I mean, what tempted you there and how does it compare?

Speaker C: You know, it's funny. I took the job, to be frank Adell, I didn't. It was a test. I just wanted to see what it was like. Um, and then I found out that I really liked it. Um, at the time, I just, I needed something. I needed a break from doing the entrepreneurial bit.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker C: You know, having. Yeah. And having employees is. I can remember we had a technical problem and I had to go and, and visit clients, explain what was happening. And I remember being on the plane thinking, I have the livelihood of all of my employees, families in my hand. And I had one key employee who was very excited because their daughter was going off to college. And the weight of that was just so great. If you've never been in that position, you may not realize just how all encompassing that is. But I remember being on the plane thinking, if I can't deal with this problem successfully, I'm gonna have to let some people go. I mean, yes, it's gonna impact the finances of my family, but it's going to impact more than, I mean, even more than that. And so that, that was an experience and I. And to be honest, I needed a little bit of a break.

Speaker B: Um, sure.

Speaker C: I remember when I started Adele, uh, coming out of a meeting and someone saying, oh, boy, that was stressful. You may not be used to that. I was like, oh, my gosh, that was war with Nerf guns. Like, that's. There's no stress there. Like, no one's losing their job. I'm not. Like, if I'm wrong, I don't have to look at someone and say, I'm very sorry, but I don't. Yeah, I can't keep you. You know, I mean, like, nah, it's

Speaker B: a whole different Discussion.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is totally different. And solving problems with, um, almost no resources. You mean like my, the first loyalty platform I put together, it was like gamification is the best example.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Someone was saying, well, how do we know this works? And I'm thinking because I've done millions of entries and I did them on a system that was like a caveman drawing pictures in the dirt with a stick compared to what's available now. And so yeah, the psychology behind it is strong, I promise you, because what I had lacked nuance, it was pretty rough.

Speaker B: So I know you found gamification and I know that's your core passion now in terms of loyalty. So that's the direction I gather you're going to take the Dell program. So tell me how you got into the gamification side and why is it that you believe that that's I suppose, the next big thing and the model that's going to be most effective for you.

Speaker C: Yeah. You know it's funny, gamification for me is it does a couple things amazingly well.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, by leveraging gamification you can get members to engage in content more frequently and more deeply than they would otherwise. And you can create a varied reward structure, um, in any type of cash based reward structure. It's been my experience and research shows that it's an amazing short term driver of behavior, but only for the short term. And that it gets more expensive over time.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: And making it variable, you can extend that. Um, I got into gamification, to be honest with you, because I had a client, um, without naming names or even what the name of my agency was, because then someone come back into it, but they had, um, released a cash based reward into a point system.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And they needed some way to lower the cost of points, uh, issued and redeemed. And like I said before, you can't just, you can't like put an Amazon card in there and go, oh, oh gosh, we shouldn't have done that, we're going to take it back. Um, yeah, members tend to frown on that and they express that by going elsewhere. And so I needed a way to sort of relieve that pressure. And so I made a number of changes, but one of the things I did is I actually released entries to Games of Chance as a redeemable reward option.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker C: And so people were redeeming two and three dollars worth of points for something that costs 10 cents, 8 cents, of course.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and I had done a bunch of research before doing so I didn't know to be Frank, I didn't know anything about it. I had the idea sitting on a plane. And so when I got to my hotel that night, I started doing all this research. And there's a great deal of research out there. And I found this fantastic, um, dissertation written by, and I've always laughed because. Dissertation written by a PhD student in Behavioral psychology. And I based, uh, massive program changes on this dissertation. And I remember as I was doing it thinking, I don't know what grade she got. Her professors may have gone, yeah, this isn't even close to being true. And yet I was basing all of this stuff on. But it was just, it was just such a compelling. She cited all this research going back generations. And I can save that reservation. It's proven to be completely true. The idea behind it was basically this concept of preference reversals. That if you take a game, entries to a game of chance and you put them in front of. You put two entries, uh, to two different games of chance in front of somebody and you ask them which is the better game, okay, they will say the one with the best odds of winning. But if you ask them to put a monetary value on entries to the games of chance, they put the higher monetary value on the game with the greatest, the most appealing grand prize, regardless of odds of money.

Speaker B: Really.

Speaker C: And I found that to be amazingly true to the point where the odds of winning are meaningless beyond a willingness to look at yourself in the mirror the next day.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, and so it allowed me a great deal of flexibility in controlling cost, controlling sort of what's there, and shaping games based on sort of what's the underlying psychology and how are they going to respond to it. Um, and what was interesting is that the psychology behind it is so great. Um, and I'm a big believer in that having people lose isn't a bad thing.

Speaker B: Of course not.

Speaker C: But a lot of people will have. If you talk to people about a game of chance, they have a heart attack. Well, oh my gosh. What about the people who lose? Are they going to be mad?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, no. They're not an experience.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so the, the difference for me is, um, it's that engagement, it's that sort of interacting with that, that content that allows them to be more fully engaged in what's there. You know, if you send an email out with content, we all do it, right? Like it's the subject line. And maybe. And I, and I be the first to say I'm a bit cynical on a lot of this, largely because of Some area of expertise and therefore. But um, with the game, I mean, I sent out a change in terms of conditions embedded in the game and I had tens of thousands of people play the game, engage content and answer questions about program terms and conditions on the backside. They would never have done that. If I said that in an email. People would thought I was crazy. But in a game, no one even. And um, my reward mix was, I mean it was so small, but it doesn't matter. People, people engaged it and they were happy.

Speaker B: So what do you think is the key success factor then Mitch, in, in gamification? Like is it the big dream? You know, as you said, that reward mix and just getting one big Halo prize. Is it about the, the visual design of the game, um, and how easy it is to understand or tell us a bit about how you would design something like that?

Speaker C: What's interesting to me is it's, it's definitely about the instant gratification.

Speaker B: Um, okay.

Speaker C: Like if you look at a sweepstakes. I don't consider sweepstakes to be sort of viable gamification because I, I describe sweepstakes as. It's like a casino that has a blackjack table or a, ah, roulette table for those of you aren't gamblers. You know, you drop the ball and spins and lands on. Yeah, it's like you walked up to roulette table and you said, listen, here's a hundred dollars, put it on red. And then you went up to your room and you may or may not have won. And if you didn't, no one will ever talk to you again. You'll never hear about it. Not a very engaging game and not one you're going to play very frequently.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker C: It's the difference between that and them spinning the wheel. You watching the ball drop and seeing whether you won right there.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: If that's the case, you're more willing to do that over and over and over again. One of the things that stunned me about gamification, that people will engage it over and over again. Uh, I'll never Forget we had one person redeem $3 worth of points to play one of the games 67 times in a month.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: My first thought was. Exactly. My first thought was, oh my gosh, we had a technical issue and we just drained points out of this poor guy's account. Find out, no, there's no technical issue. This guy did it willingly. I'm like, okay, well then let's call this guy and figure out sort of what's the no he's totally fine with the experience. And the interesting thing is for $3, I mean, he could have redeemed for most of the prizes in the game.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Anyway. And that kind of keyed me into sort of how strong the psychology is on that. Um, it just allows me to sort of breadcrumb behavior through a larger ecosystem because my cost for people will do so much more for an entry to a game that costs you pennies than they will for a $4 reward, $5 reward. Um, and so it allows me to solve problems at scale, move members through sort of complex, uh, decision trees, identify points in the customer experience where people stall out and give it a little boost to get them through to the next level. Um, to get them to engage in content that they wouldn't have otherwise. It's fantastic for training. Um, but to be clear, it is a tool in a larger program as opposed to a program in and of itself.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: You know, I mean, like I'm, I'm. You can overdo it, you can take it too far, it can become too frequent. Um, and the psychology behind it, it's a bit binary in that in my experience, for those. It engages. Oh my gosh, does it engage. I mean, it can engage into a frightening degree for some people. It doesn't really.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Resonate with them. So you have to be a little, a little careful. But anyway, that's, that's been my. I'm a huge proponent of it and I use it all the time. But, but definitely as one piece of a larger strategy. Yeah, yeah. But what's interesting, what I think most people don't realize is they think of it as, um, the psychology behind it to be like computer gaming. And it's less of that and more obviously it's not probably the best way to put it, but, but it's more akin to gambling than.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And if you think about the. If you walk into a casino, in any casino, uh, in the world, you see sort of a pretty broad based cross section across ethnicity, gender, everything. And so it has a really broad based appeal. And that helps.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. So it is personality. It's not a particular income or anything else or demographic. It's very much. Yeah, yeah. Because for example, I went to Vegas and I was bored out of my tree. I was just like, when can I get out of here? I mean, literally doesn't appeal to me.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's funny too, because I'm a huge proponent of gamification and I'm not someone who gambles. I was in Vegas. We've all if you're, if you do any business in the US and you go to any conference, you're in and out of Vegas somewhat frequently. And I remember I was just walking, come to my room and, and I don't normally carry cash but I had 20 bucks, I stopped at a, at a blackjack table, played like four or five dollar hands or something, lost my money in about 30 seconds. And I remember getting in the elevator going that was so unfulfilling.

Speaker B: Um, exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly like that did absolutely nothing for me. I um, could have, yeah, I spent that money in almost any other way and gotten a better outcome but for some reason. Sorry.

Speaker B: Totally. But no. What I really like about what you're saying Mitch though is its relevance, particularly in industries that have uh, very tight margins. And I've seen you know, gamification working super well particularly in fuel retail programs and I mentioned one in Ireland for example called Player park, which was an extraordinary program. And that's clearly what's happening in Dell as well. You know, you're moving in the direction of engagement when literally the margins are tight.

Speaker C: Well, and also too, I think that's absolutely true. Um, but also too we're entering this sort of big data world where we all have access to so much more data and we can apply machine learning to it and take much more nuanced looks at the customer journey. And so we can identify non transactional behaviors that are incredibly valuable, incredible indicators of potential value or drivers of member value that are too far removed from the uh, transaction to directly uh, reward at a level that would actually drive the behavior. And gamification allows you to lean on that, that behavior in a way that's economically viable. You know, if I know that you updating your profile within the first 30 days, for instance mhm of sign up, it makes you more likely to be engaged in a year. Uh, I can't really, I can't. It's unlikely I should say that I can reward you at a level that's going to make you do that. But using gamification I can sort of lead you through that and do that in a way that's economically viable.

Speaker B: Okay. And there is still I guess then a ah, value exchange as well. Whereas at least I get the fun to go okay, cool, that was really good fun and I like this brand more. So there's kind of a halo effect uh, and you get the data that you need without any investment.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And it's funny M. That's exactly the way I describe it too. That's Why I started kind of smiling. Uh, there is a value exchange and for people who don't, they look at and go, it's just a silly little game. You have any idea how much time the average person spends on their phone doing some. There's a value to it and if structured correctly. And so one of the things that I always do is I go through sort of a set when I'm working with stakeholders to build a game. Always starting with the objective because sometimes it's just for it to be fun. We'll do that in our gaming community. Right. Some of the games, there's no value to them other than it's just sort of fun. And it's a way for them to interact with a brand that's positive. It's not earth shattering. When I get curing cancer, we're selling computers. Right. Like at the end of the day, sometimes just being fun's okay. Yeah. And yeah, sometimes I want them to engage content sometimes. You know what I mean? Like, but there is, even for the losers, there's a value exchange and we see an increase in positive outcomes even from those who lose. But, um, oh my gosh, did I have to document that?

Speaker B: Because I'm sure, yeah, people were very.

Speaker C: And I always say to you, if everybody wins, did anybody do what? I mean, if I play a game and I won but everyone else did as well, it's not the same charge as, uh, if somebody lost. I mean, that sounds terrible. And you think, gosh, you know, are we really that bad?

Speaker B: But yeah, we're a competitive species, Mitch. There is absolutely no doubt.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you know, it's funny, one of the first books I read on gamification, they talked about sort of that competitive drive and they always talked about. But one of the. I just don't always remember this because I'm a avid recreational tennis player and I want to stress avid as opposed to accomplished or good. Okay, but, but I am avid. And, and that's one of the key indicators of. For some reason, tennis is one of the key indicators of a, of a competitive, uh, personality.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker C: Yeah, I always thought that was somewhat interesting. But anyway, totally. Okay, totally off topic. But, but yes, we're all competitive. And so for it to be really effective, you need to have, in my opinion, you need to have losers. In my experience, I should say yes. And so there are times when I'll set up a game and everybody wins. And to be honest with you, my objective is to issue the rewards. I'm just layering in the game to get them to engage a little bit of content and to create some breakage, make them take a step towards me before I give them something in return.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: But the reality is I'm not. My objective isn't brand engagement. I'm trying to give you a transactional reward and I'm gonna. Okay, follow up with. I have a marketing plan for how I'm gonna follow that up and I'm gonna. I want to issue rewards in a broad based way and I want to get you to take a step towards me so I don't have to issue quite. I don't have quite the liability out there. Um, and so that's the one time I won't have winners.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, or excuse me, I won't have losers.

Speaker B: You, uh, won't have losers.

Speaker C: But for the most part I like having losers.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I totally get it, Mitch, but uh, um, what kind of resistance internally would you expect? So again, thinking about people listening to the show who may not have considered gamification as a strategy previously, you've mentioned the casino piece and I think there's sometimes a bit of nervousness. Obviously legality has to be checked. Every country's got its own, you know, ins and outs and complexity. But what, you know, just from a purely strategic perspective, what should they be thinking about in terms of a gamification loyalty strategy?

Speaker C: It is a way for you to. The way I sold it internally.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Was that you tell me what you want more of and I'll get it for you and I'll do it cheaply and I'll do it in a way that people will enjoy.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: Which sounds strange, but getting someone to interact with your brand in a way that they enjoy M is a win in and of itself. That's the value exchange.

Speaker B: Gotcha.

Speaker C: And so that's kind of how I sold it internally. And I walked people through sort of a waterfall.

Speaker B: Mm mhm.

Speaker C: Um, this is how many people would like send out an email, for instance. Right. This is the waterfall we'd expect. This open rate, this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: This game engagement rate we would expect. And it was very interesting, you know, to watch people sort of have their eyes open to sort of the possibilities. But even at that they uh, they allowed me to test it. And that's one of the things I like about those. They'll allow you to test it. And I'm a big believer in testing ideas and concepts. Um, because if, and I even say, listen, to be innovative, you have to be willing to fail. And so you need to structure tests in a way that give you a way to back out. And so when I first started testing gamification, I did it in our gaming community. M not because gamers are actually the worst audience for it. So it was not interesting. Yeah, they're not the game because they were like, hey, I did really well in this game. I don't understand why I didn't get more rewards. Like, it's just a game of chance. There's not.

Speaker B: Yeah, they're too well educated, huh?

Speaker C: Oh, exactly. And they had much higher expectations for the graphics for the game and everything.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: But, um, I tested it in a way that I could back out of if I didn't get the outcome I wanted. And so I just, I have slowly sort of pushed it out into more and more parts of the business. And as we sort of evolve the program, it will play a larger role in how we collect data and how we. Because one of the things to remember about gamification is it allows you to ask something in return for giving them a reward.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: I asked you to opt in. I asked you to answer a question. You know, we all have marketing programs based on predictive models. Those predictive models hinge on a handful of data points.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, this allows you to collect meaningful data at scale. The one challenge I would, the one proviso I would say, and this is just me, I hate when someone asks me for a data point and then they don't use it. If you ask me for a data point, I want it to shape the customer experience. I want to shape how the brand interacts with me. And so that's the one thing with gamification, is that it's so easy to collect data that times you're collecting data just because you can, and then the customer is like, well, I already told you that.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, you're not listening.

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. And so it allows you to. And that's one of the dangers of it, is that you can sort of collect more data than you can use. And that's easy in today's world, it's much easier. We all, I think, probably know more about our customers than we can actually act on.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And like I said earlier, actually, Mitch, in the same way that I'm a difficult customer in retail, if loyalty comes up as a subject, because I'll never ask about it. I'm also, um, on my birthday, very challenging to the brands that I'm a member of their loyalty program because I'm sitting waiting for something to happen and it usually doesn't.

Speaker C: I know it's like, Jesus, my birthday. Don't get a little kiss on the cheek here. Come on, give me something.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah. You know, the. It's funny. You know, the challenge with being in loyalty is that you do have sort of weird, like, I will go through a game in excruciating detail, making observations as I go, to my wife's dismay, I'm sure, um, about what's there, how they structured, why they shouldn't have done it this way, or why they should have done it that way, or, oh, my gosh, I really like this. I never thought of doing it this way.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah. So I never have an organic reaction to anything. My reaction is always tend to like, will this make me look smarter if I could totally copy this? And I'm so willing to do that, by the way.

Speaker B: Oh, completely.

Speaker C: Yeah. There is no. None of us need to be the ones that solve all problems. Right. Like, somebody else has had a great idea and all or part of it is probably applicable to what you're doing.

Speaker B: And there's a great phrase, actually, which I really use regularly now, and it comes through, I told you, I'll do a lot of work in fuel loyalty. Um, and it's literally copy with pride. And that is the way that entire industry approaches sharing of knowledge, sharing of ideas. And I just think it's extraordinary because, again, I probably would have been a little bit guilty in the back kind of, you know, in the past to go, okay, maybe this isn't my concept and whatever. But now I'm like, no copy with pride. Out we go. Here we go.

Speaker C: Absolutely. It's funny, as I've gone through my career, I. I will ask somebody to send something to me, and I will be completely transparent. Like, could you send that to me? Because I'm gonna totally plagiarize the crap out of that.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: I love that. And I'm gonna take it. And. Yeah, a guy in my, uh, uh, on my team made this comment one time, and it was just so obvious, but I hadn't thought of it in that way. And it was just. It's totally changed how I think about transactional rewards. And he was just like, it's demand. And I now envision transactional rewards as demand. But as a. This can sound really strange, but as a fluid. A fluid that I can direct around an ecosystem. So m. I can time when it gets to a certain point. I can time what points it touches and what point it doesn't. And at first I gave him credit for that, and I now give him a bit of time. Like, listen, I've run out of ways to say, hey, you're the one that had this idea. It's now mine.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So just FYI, and I use it all the time, so five years from now. Yeah, I could write a book and no one knew you existed.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But I'm curious, Mitch, in terms of KPIs, ah, within Dell, you know, running the loyalty for such a big global brand, what is it that you measure that you, um, actively manage? I guess, because clearly, as you said, you can do all sorts of things. What is it that keeps you awake at night and that you're really focused on driving?

Speaker C: I'm a huge believer in objectives and I start almost any discussion about loyalty with the objectives, customer value and customer retention.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And I get asked to do all of these things. I get asked, you, um, know, when we have to report out outcomes or someone tries to direct us in a certain area, I always come back to that. Listen, I am looking to drive long term value and retention. If what you're asking me to do is outside of those m, we could conceivably do that, but it's not something that we're currently pushing and we get asked that. We're large organization with a ton of teams and so you get someone that wants to know, like what percentage of your members do what, you know, something. And I always have to say, listen, that doesn't dovetail with our objectives. It's not something we're trying to drive. So I can give you the number, but it's just a number. It'll go up or down based on things that are completely outside of the loyalty program. And I, when I first started Adele, um, it was interesting. You know, I had, I had run large point based systems previously and the people that were running the program hadn't and they'd asked me for some numbers and I remember giving it to him and saying, listen, I don't know you, but just take this piece of advice. You don't control any of those numbers. So they're good today. They're good. They're good because the organization as a whole is driving those numbers.

Speaker B: Okay?

Speaker C: Do not claim these numbers, state them as numbers, because the business will shift. That number is going to go south and they're going to go, hey, why, you know, what happened? What are you doing? And yeah, and so you have to be a little careful in large organization in that, you know, the KPIs are strange. So we have a very small set of what I would call a KPI. Um, and then we have a ton of metrics that we use as, um, sort of performance measurements that give us insight into what's happening. But they're not a KPI, they're just, just, it's a number that tells us,

Speaker B: okay, something about it's time to worry or it's time not to.

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. And some of them are ones we don't even control. But it's just good to know. It gives you insight into what's happening in the business as a whole.

Speaker B: Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, actually, can I ask, Mitch, um, just occurred to me, how big is the team that runs loyalty for Dell? So how many are you managing? I guess directly we have.

Speaker C: Loyalty is, let's think here, five people.

Speaker B: My goodness. Yeah. Ah, that's tiny.

Speaker C: It's tiny. I know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: We met with, we met with another brand through Epsilon and it was like a clown car. I mean, they just, the conference room door open and they just, they kept coming in. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, they're so much bigger than ours.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: And I remember when I had my agency, they were like, one of the clients was like, oh, I need to talk to the person who does this. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then I need to, you know, by the time he's done, he's like, wait, you're doing all that? Yes, like, of course there's. We have five employees. Yes. I'm the one that's going to do all of those things. And Dell's a little bit that way as well. We don't have very many people watching it now. Obviously we leverage a bunch of other teams and all of that. So if we need to do creative, we need to. But the actual loyalty team is. Yeah, it's five people.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: I will say this, they are good. It's a very high quality team. Um, and they do amazing work.

Speaker B: And indeed that is totally reflective of anyone I have ever met with Dell. And I'm not just saying that because you're on the call, Mitch, but as I said, I've had lots of friends work for Dell in Ireland. There's a huge centre there that manages, um, the UK as well as Ireland. And even actually I've worked in recruitment over the years. Anyone who's come from Dell just seems to be super sharp. So it's a credit to the company. Actually. I always like to know there's very few companies that I would genuinely say, actually that's a really good pedigree to have. So there you go. You've got a very good pedigree in

Speaker C: my humble opinion, I was due because prior to Dell, my pedigree was a bunch of companies no one had ever heard of. One of the interesting things at Dell is Dell has an internship program where we do both undergraduate and graduate interns. And, okay, so we'll bring in really smart people coming out of college. Very, very smart people. And they will, uh, be assigned a project, and then they will have to, they'll have like five or six weeks to, to do this project. And then they present it to senior, uh, managers, senior executives. I had a, uh, it's an amazingly valued group at Dell. Uh, and it's this amazing source of innovation because they're giving really leeway to redefine their problems, their questions, do all this research. There's an expectation. The one time I've been in trouble at Dell is because no one explained to me how important the internship program was. And I was really busy. And this intern was like, hey, I need this data. I'm like, oh, my gosh, it would take me a day. No, I don't have time to do that. I'm sorry. And I moved on with my life. The weight of the world fell on me, and I was like, oh, my gosh, is this, like, Michael Dell, like, something I don't understand?

Speaker B: Personal project?

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, no, no, no. Someone had to pull me aside and go, no, no, no. It's the intern. The internship program is incredibly valuable, though, and they, they use it as a way of fostering innovation and identifying talent. But, yeah, I totally restructured the consumer loyalty program in the US Based on, uh, an intern project.

Speaker B: My goodness.

Speaker C: And he was absolutely right. Yeah, I mean, it was astounding to me how right he was. But that's one of the things I like about Dell is that it values people at all. The organization values people at all levels. And so you get a lot of talent because even if you are a fairly junior person, um, your point of view is, for the most part, heard more than I would have expected. And so you see some dramatic changes coming from some interesting places.

Speaker B: Waters.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that makes for a, I think, a much more dynamic, um, place to work. I think you get more innovation and you can recruit better talent.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And as you said earlier as well, Mitch, in fact, like, we're all so busy doing our day jobs that we just don't have the time to necessarily be creative and innovative. So you of need to be challenged externally. And whether that's the intern or the guys in Epsilon, I know you lean on Them as well. So it really is important just to have people that you can kind of go give me an idea here, because, you know, I need something new.

Speaker C: Yeah, we have. We have a couple interns doing a project this summer, and it touches one part of the loyalty program. And they were. They were kind of careful in their initial conversation with me. I think they worried about stepping on my toes. And I'm like, listen, I'm praying for that. You guys are two geniuses, because it doesn't matter. You have to understand. It doesn't matter. If you come up with something amazing that I've never thought of. Yeah, that's a win for me. I don't.

Speaker B: Fantastic.

Speaker C: Uh, who has the idea? It means nothing to me. And I'm like, besides, I'm just gonna steal it anyway. Don't worry about it. But no, it's interesting, you know, I mean, that they are all over the loyalty program, talking to a lot of the same people, and Dell's a huge organization. Sometimes the hardest thing at Dell is just knowing. Like, I can remember one time we had a problem with the flow of points, and it was some decision made somewhere in it. And the hardest thing was finding out who made it. I mean, dell's. It is 15,000 people, and at times, the biggest challenge is just knowing who to talk to.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, what I'm hearing, though, is that loyalty is very well respected in Dell. Am I right?

Speaker C: Yes, it is. It's getting. It's getting even more so. I think people are seeing the value of loyalty outcomes.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And I'm a big believer in that. My objective are loyalty outcomes. Whether that comes as the result of a structured program or something a little less fenced in is a different question, but without question, and even more so moving forward. Dell values loyalty, you know, for all the obvious reasons. Right. It's incredibly expensive to get a new customer, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but it's taken a little bit.

Speaker B: But it's also expensive to run a loyalty program. So I think that's where, um, the internal justification isn't always. And I heard you hesitate there, Mitch, and I hear that that's what's happening, is that there's an amazing awareness of the outcomes being attributable to the work that's being done. And that does take time.

Speaker C: It does.

Speaker B: It's a credit to you, and it's a credit to them. Like, you know, and hopeful for the future for all of us.

Speaker C: We've had to use. I started when I took over the program M. Uh, in The US I started reporting out grudgingly, uh, at first to be honest with you. It wasn't part of like my master plan to solve this problem. I just finance put the thumb on me and said hey, we need to see these numbers weekly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like oh my gosh, like I do not want to have conversations about weekly changes in redemption rates and all that kind of stuff. Like it's, it's, it does complex. Yeah. It's just, it's so overly complex.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And anyone who's, who's run a large points based systems, those conversations where they, someone will make a statement and you're like, they're like is that true? Like ish. Yeah, kind of, it's like kind of true. Um, but what we've done is sort of report out uh, with Epsilon's help. They've helped us sort of clean up the views of the program and get a more refined look at the flow of points and tie the flow of points to outcomes.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker C: And that's helped us and to get the business to take a step back. Because one of the challenges, I think what we all have is that the benefits of a loyalty program play out over time. Time.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And that time is rarely consistent with how the larger business views its own performance. And so they're saying they're asking you for performance metrics within a time period where you're like it doesn't.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, like I like without going into great detail if for our current loyalty program if we look at an active buyer we're not driving biggest value of the program is not that I'm driving value in an active buyer, I'm keeping the active buyer for a far longer period of time. And so the same value over a short period of time is experienced over that same increment many times over that of a non member. And it took a little bit to sort of educate the business that that's the form the value would take and to do that in a way that was simple enough. I mean if you talk to somebody who's senior, um, you have no time. You have.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker C: I always say it's like the big red crayon. Right. You have to communicate concepts with a big red crayon. Now Dell has incredibly smart people so it's interesting, you know, you'll do, uh, you report out something or you'll present to somebody very, very senior at Dell and you will have one or two slides and then 50 backups based on how you answer their questions. And you better know your numbers because I always laugh I mean they can sense fear and weakness. Right. Like if you have one number you're a little squishy on, don't put it in there because you'll find yourself in a long, drawn out conversation about the one number you didn't want to talk about.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so it's funny, you know, the loyalty of doubt is, is going to be an ever more expansive part of the business. And I'm excited to see the form that that takes. And we're still early in the process, we're defining what that is going to look like. But what I'm excited about is organizationally.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: We are dealing with all the things that we want to deal with. How do we, you know, how do we deal with the data that's that loyalty programs throw off a ton of data. How do we make certain storing off the right data and how are we managing that? How are we using this to shape the customer experience across the entire breadth of the business? And then you have to understand with Dell we are global and we deal with everyone buying a tablet for streaming movies at home to um, a federal government buying mainframe computers. Right. Like we're so broad. Yeah. And so we have to have a system that is incredibly fluid, that has sort of a rigid sort of exoskeleton and then all of this flexibility on the inside that allows us to localize by region and by, by customer group and all that because the, just the margin rate between a consumer and you know, it's not even the same world. Um, and yet we still have customers that sort of migrate up through that. Now we don't have consumers. Consumers all of a sudden owning a banana republic in there, but they migrate up into SB and all of that.

Speaker B: But I can just imagine the complexity actually of sourcing the platform originally. Like when you did go and start working with Epsilon. How can you even foresee the requirements for a company like Dell? That's the extraordinary part in my mind

Speaker C: in looking at the new structure. Um, I mean I'm a big believer because I've been on the other side of that conversation as well. Right. I'm pretty confident if I go to Epsilon and I say, listen, I come up with the craziest thing you could possibly think of. Can you do that? The answer is not, it's not a question of yes or no, it's a question of how big the check is I have to write. And then, um, that's what I want. I mean it's not, sorry, but that's what I want. Epsilon has Been a great help and that they are a good sounding board for um, yeah, sort of directions we need to take. Anything you do in the modern world obviously has rides on a uh, support system of technology. And so I needed a partner that would work with us. Has the flexibility to sort of step back at times and they've been good at that and saying listen, let's, I don't care what your system does currently, I don't care what we are doing currently. This is the problem I'm trying to solve.

Speaker B: Mm mhm.

Speaker C: Let's find a way to do that. And they're very good at stepping back and then once we identify that then trying to apply their, their technology um, to that solution and at times we'll adjust sort of how we're going to go do something based on what's more easily done. But I've, I've found that, that that's the best way to be innovative. Right. Like don't, don't worry about all the constraints. Find the solution and then apply the resources to it.

Speaker B: Amazing. Amazing. Mitch, the last thing I wanted to ask you about is really just um, I suppose more on the education side. Um, I know you confess to being ah, an avid reader slash cigar smoker.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: I'm not sure which we want to highlight.

Speaker C: Yeah. Which is causal and which is.

Speaker B: Exactly. But clearly you're very well read. Clearly you have a real passion for loyalty. Um, I'm sure you have great fun in the office and I'm sure there is plenty of stress along the way. But just in terms of again listeners, if they're looking to grow their knowledge about loyalty, what would you suggest they'd be doing in terms of educating themselves?

Speaker C: Um, it's funny, I'm a huge believer in the psychology behind rewards. I believe that if you understand that then you can sort of innovate based on foundational truths that remain unchanged over time. One of the hard things about how people interact with rewards. Well, two things. One, the minute you insert any rewards into any system, you've changed it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so you have to sort of have some awareness of to what impact that's going to have. The second is um, people are full of crap. Right. Like if I, if I ask you what you want, what you tell me is not what actually drives your behavior. And so too often like I'll have people in the organization come to me and they say, hey, I want to do this, I want to pay out rewards to do this and for this behavior to get this outcome. And I'm like, it's not going to have the, it's not going to do what you think it's going to do. You know, there's either unintended consequences or that's just not how it works. And so I would strongly advocate like one of the first books I read is a book called Drive.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Um, and it talks in there about cash based system. It was just the first one I read. And so it's kind of a positive place in my heart from it. And I'm, I read, I skim fast. Like if I'm reading something and I go, I don't care, I move on, you know, I'll blow right through. I don't like try to get weighty down in some esoteric discussion of something that I know I'll never use. And so I will go through books fairly quickly.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, but, but I would, for me anyway, my journey started with the book Drive by Daniel Pink. Um, okay. There was a, it was gonna sound really interesting but there was one study in there and I don't know why I just, even all these years later just so resonates with me. But they went to a preschool and they had, they measured how many pictures kids were to trying drawing. They put out on a table, paper and crayons and then just count how many pictures people draw. And they divided the kids into two groups and one group got a cookie or something for every picture they drew and the other one got nothing. And the group that got nothing continued on at the same rate. And the one that got a cookie, uh, drew more pictures in the short term and then, and eventually it took two cookies to get them to draw more pictures. And if you took away the cookies, they didn't draw any pictures.

Speaker B: Oh my goodness.

Speaker C: And I can, I've used that. It sounds crazy but there's a foundational truth there. And it's, and it's absolutely accurate in my experience. And so I've had that conversation where for a part of the business they said hey, we want to, you know, for budgetary reasons we don't want to pay rewards on this anymore. I'm um, like okay, that's fine. But please understand, understand you aren't going to go back to the baseline. You go below the baseline. Yeah, that's what happens when you start paying a reward out on something. And I use that explanation when people want to start paying rewards out, uh, transactional rewards out, um, on something new. Like listen, that's great, we can do that. You will get more of it. But please understand there is a Predictable cycle to this.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it holds true anytime you release rewards out into there. Um, if anybody has anybody listening, has a book or any content like that, um, please let me know. Um, Paula has sent me some stuff and I've started to devour it.

Speaker B: Um, wonderful.

Speaker C: It's actually hard on my. I just spent a week off and I had made myself read, um, something else. But. Yeah, but there's so much great work out there and I sort of find it just endlessly fascinating.

Speaker B: For sure. And actually, Mitch, have you heard of a gentleman by the name of Yukai Cho from Stanford University? He lectures in gamification there.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker B: Okay, so I am going to, uh, make your day hopefully. Um, but yeah, he's um.

Speaker C: I'm writing it down as we speak.

Speaker B: Exactly. Now. And I won't do. Oh, I know what he calls it. The Octalysis framework. He has, um, literally captured what you've been describing, Mitch, in terms of the drivers of human psychology and human behavior. And I totally agree with your point. If I was to go back and redo my career, I'd probably start with a degree in psychology. And in fact I might do one at some other point. I just think it's so fascinating.

Speaker C: I'm the same way. I'm the same way. If I could go back in time, it would be behavioral. Uh, psychology and economics.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Perfect to me. Uh, because the interplay between. We all want to be rational.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And. But we're not.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah, we're totally not. No, no.

Speaker C: And, and so I love the fact that, that if I ask a group of people a question, the answer I get is what they wish to be true rather than what's actually they don't have.

Speaker B: None of us have a clue. Actually. It's not them, it's us. Yeah, you're totally.

Speaker C: Well, no, no, exactly. I'm not. I'm. I am no better. Right.

Speaker B: Irrational human being.

Speaker C: Right. I like to think I'm self aware, but the reality is.

Speaker B: Yeah. No, no, no. Brilliant. So I will link to that one. I've remembered it. Gamification. So I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes and the book that you mentioned. Also drive as well, Mitch. I'll definitely link to that. I don't have any more questions from my side. I have loved hearing about all of your work in Dell and your career and your insights. Is there anything else you wanted to mention, Mitch, before we wrap up?

Speaker C: No. Other than, like I said, if anyone has any content out there, please.

Speaker B: Okay, send it over.

Speaker C: Uh, send it over. I would love to see it.

Speaker B: Okay, brilliant. Well, listen, obviously I'll make sure to link to your LinkedIn profile as well, Mitch, just to make sure that people can connect with you. Because I do believe in the power of sharing. So you're absolutely right. The resources, we all need to recommend them to each other. So listen, without further ado, I know you have a busy week to get back to, so Mitch Kennedy from Dell Loyalty thank you so much from let's Talk Loyalty.

Speaker A: This show is sponsored by Wise Marketeer Group. Operating the Wise Marketeer and Loyalty Academy for nearly 25 years. Years. The wise marketer is the industry's longest serving publication and source for news, information and insights, which now includes its own branded industry research insights and advice for global coverage of customer engagement and loyalty. Check out thewisemarketer.com and become a Wiser Marketer member or subscriber. The Loyalty Capital sets a global industry standard for loyalty education with its Certified Loyalty marketing professional, or CLMP designation, which has created a community of more than 1200 marketing executives and professionals across more than 50 countries. Learn more about global loyalty education for individuals or corporate training at Loyalty Account. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of let's Talk Loyalty. If you'd like us to send you the latest shows each week, uh, simply sign up for the let's Talk loyalty newsletter on letstalkl.com and we'll send our best episodes straight to your inbox. And, um, don't forget that you can follow let's Talk Loyalty on on any of your favorite podcast platforms. And of course, we'd love for you to share your feedback and reviews. Thanks again for supporting the show.