S04E155 Bar Leadership for Growth & Collaborative Family Law with Manisha P. Patel

Whether you're a teaching leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner. The Leadership and Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice. Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins.

Please join me in welcoming my guest, Manisha P. Patel, to the show today. Manisha is known for combining deep legal expertise with a calm, practical, and compassionate approach that helps clients make good decisions in some of the most stressful moments of their lives. As a collaborative family law attorney, certified mediator, and founder of the boutique family law firm in Greensboro, North Carolina, Manisha focuses on helping families navigate separation, divorce, and co-parenting with less conflict and more clarity using collaborative law and mediation to keep people out of courtroom battles whenever possible.

She is an elected counselor to the North Carolina State Bar and past president of the Greensboro Bar Association, as well as a longtime leader in organizations that support women in the legal profession, pro bono service, and lawyer wellness. Her new book, End Your Marriage Peacefully, Your Guide to Successful Collaboration, Divorce in North Carolina, launches in 2026. I'm excited to have you here, Manisha. Welcome.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here and have a chat with you today. Absolutely. So tell us a bit, this is an amazing bio.

Tell us about your leadership journey. Yeah, I guess it's all rooted in my childhood growing up. My parents are first, rather, I'm first generation. They came to this country in the mid to late 70s.

And I'm the youngest of three. And so my parents always instilled this duty of service and giving back to our community. And throughout my childhood, my young adult life, and now I guess middle-aged less thing, it's always been a focus of mine that I wanted to give back to my community and how best am I able to do that. And so throughout high school, college, undergrad, law school, it has always been a focus of mine of whatever I can do to better whatever community I'm involved in.

That's what I would love to do. And so finding leadership roles where I can use my expertise or my drive and passion. That's how I got into bar association work after law school. I was very involved in the Women's Law Association during law school.

And that's really where early on, probably my first year of law school, I found that passion of I want to help women in this profession. I want to promote women in this profession. I want women coming after me to see that someone who looks like me can have an impact in this field, in the profession. And so I didn't have that.

I didn't see very many Indian women in the profession and leadership roles at that. And so I came to get involved with our local chapter of the North Carolina Association of Women Attorneys, worked my way up in the leadership through that organization. And I was actually a two-time president for 2019 and 2020. And that through that, I expanded my bar involvement into other organizations.

I was a past chair of the Women in the Profession Committee for the North Carolina Bar Association. And we actually, that year of my chair role, we created the very first award in over 125 years of the bar association's history that is for women attorneys to celebrate trailers in the profession. And through all the things that had been instilled in me, the values giving back to the profession was the way I wanted to serve my community. And how better to do that than promote women, leaving the ladder down for women who come after me, being an example and making sure women's voices are heard.

My voice is heard, and making sure if I get a seat at the table, I have I pull that chair out for someone else. And that's how I see my role with the state bar, the North Carolina State Bar Council. When I was elected to that position in 2022, there were less than 10 women on the council of over 60 members. And so now I can count in more than two hands the number of women who are on the council.

Although still being the only South Asian member of the council, I feel that I can bring a different voice and speak to that in our work on the council. I love that. Or just getting involved and being able to have your voice heard and to the issues that are coming up. Fantastic.

Absolutely. I love that. Let's talk about collaborative family law. For listeners who may not be familiar with it, I am coming back to the Bar Azion Leadership, though.

We're coming back to that. So what is collaborative family law and how's it different from traditional divorce litigation? Yeah. So collaborative family law has been around in the United States.

I would say it came to prominence in the 1970s, 1980s, and it's a form of alternative dispute resolution. So you mentioned I am a certified family financial mediator. So just like mediation is an alternative form of resolving legal disputes to litigation, meaning going in the courthouse, we have collaborative family law, we have mediation, arbitration. Those are the most common ones.

And what collaborative family law does, it's it's unique to civil law, meaning non-criminal law, criminal prosecution or criminal defense, but person-to-be person or individual versus company or vice versa. And with a collaborative family law, there are some unique principles that come along with that. And one of the hallmarks of collaborative family law is that you enter into an agreement, we call it a collaborative pledge, and you agree that you're not going to litigate. You agree that you're not going to court.

And this is not to say if you've started in court that you can't get into the collaborative process, you our courts have an option in our statutes to what we call put a stay on court proceedings if you want to enter into the collaborative process. So it really promotes everyone coming together at the table, proverbial table and literal table, to resolve their family legal issues with your voice. And a lot of it takes a lot of buy-in that you agree that you're going to have full disclosure of all documents, nothing that you keep in your back pocket to sling out at the most opportune moment.

Everything is out on the table. You agree to share costs if you need experts. And it really puts the control of decision making back into the hands of the parties. Whereas in litigation, in North Carolina, all family law matters are decided by a judge.

And a judge essentially is a stranger to your family, to your finances. And so what I love about collaborative family law is it shifts the focus from being interest-based, or excuse me, from being positional based, being say in the sense of this is my position, and I'm going to fight as hard as I can and argue and have all the witnesses for my position. It shifts to what are the interests of the two parties? What is their focus?

And how can we make everyone's needs met throughout this process with everything that we've put out on the table? Okay. And what types of families or situations are best suited for that? So I'll flip that question because I would say it's suited for, it could be well suited for any type of family with children, without children.

Where I would say it's not best suited is if there's domestic violence, because it does bring in the factor of you're either literally at the table working together in a conference room. I like to use round tables because it's not one side versus the other. And it brings a more this is a team working together versus a you versus me. And even if there hasn't been physical domestic violence, any type of emotional control or manipulation, things like that, or yes, exactly.

When I can even notice that is not safe for my client, I won't even suggest it because part of this process is you have to be vulnerable and you have to share what your needs are and your feelings and whatever you observe of yourself and the other party. And if there I've just seen so much where if that DV for short has been in the relationship history, it just it doesn't promote a safe environment. And physical and personal safety is also a very important piece of moving through the collaborative process.

I love the way you clarified because my thinking was if you had real property, your children, it might not be good. But I like the way it comes down to your client being safe in the area to be able to, very interesting. And so many people assume that divorce automatically means conflict. How does this process change that tone and the outcome of a divorce?

You said you agree not to go to court, but then what are how do you keep it calm? Yeah, so it can be very tricky. And so one thing about the collaborative process is one, you have to have that buy-in, and two, you have to have a level of trust with your, and I'll call it a collaborative team. Each individual will have their own attorney, but you are truly working together as a team.

And oftentimes when I see that there's a shift or high emotions or heavy energy in a particular meeting on a particular topic like spousal support, for example, my counterpart, a collaborative attorney, will reframe, restate something my client may have said, and vice versa. And so that brings it more into that collaborative space. And we also practice nonviolent communication per Marshall Rosenberg, who I would say is the father of nonviolent communication, and we really focus on a formulaic method of communicating during this process.

And so it really helps bring everyone back to the moment. And if there is conflict, which it's bound to have, we're bound to have it, or high emotions, we can break into what we call caucuses. So we can go one-on-one with our clients. So if we're doing a Zoom collaborative session, we'll break out into our breakout rooms and have one-on-one time with our clients to just bring to get us grounded again.

And so that that really helps using it strategically when we know this is a high emotion area. Pets, I've had that situation come up with pets. And what if someone moves away? What if the one pet passes away?

What happens? How does that work? And it also gives us the freedom to make those stipulations, those conditions when the law may not allow for it. I see.

Yeah, there are pets would definitely be a high emotional situation with the law fool. And what are some of the most common misconceptions people have about mediation and collaborative law? I think one of the big misconceptions I think people have with collaborative law and mediation to a degree is that it's it's all fluffy. Um, we're all talking about feelings and emotions, and it takes so long to get done, and you're still paying two attorneys to get your end result like completed.

And I I will say that collaborative family law, in my experiences, have saves people so much time, so much money, rather than working through the court system and essentially being the mercy at of the court schedule. Carolina just moved to a one judge, one family requirement. So one judge is stays with that one family's case throughout the course of it. But what happens when a judge retires?

What happens if a judge doesn't win re-election? What if a new judge is appointed when another judge retires? What if a judge has no or very little experience in civil law and they've been in the criminal world in their whole experience in practicing law? So I think there's so much risk with that court process.

And it just starts the adversarial mindset. And so with collaborative, yes, we do talk about feelings. Yes, it does can get heavy, but I've seen it work successfully where we would have one collaborative session, then the husband and wife are able to communicate, and boom, six weeks later, we have a settlement agreement and we're just waiting for the time to have the divorce completed through the courts. Wow.

Okay. And it works well with when children are involved. Yeah. And I will say something I've noticed much more in probably the past two years, and I'll say also say probably since COVID, since probably 2021, 2022, I have found that collaborate through collaborative law, parents are able to reach a resolution on on children's issues, on child custody, for example.

Really most all the time they say, we ask, what are your goals? What's most important? And I would probably say eight times out of ten, if I had to put a percentage on there, that custody, the children, that is the first priority, their first goal to make sure this process is as least disruptive to their lives. And they're able to work something out almost immediately.

Once certain pieces are put in place, like support or who's going to move out, or can this other parent afford to move out? How can we structure this so that this family is not broken in half, but just restructured physically so that it's a seamless transition? And oftentimes I find with custody children, it's very often the first thing people can agree to. I guess if you start with the highest priority of the partners, and then it's a domino effect as things get less important to make a decision about interesting, very interesting.

Let's jump to your bars, bar leadership. I know that you serve significant bar leadership roles. What made you wanted to get your voice heard? How did you get started?

Say somebody wants to do the same thing. I know you did it to be heard. How do you put that ladder down and how would someone follow you in your footsteps? Yeah.

So one of my the biggest ways I try to share information, share my path. And I used to withdraw from this topic, but I struggled greatly passing the bar exam. And I passed it on my third try. There's a lot of family issues and just the test anxiety that I've had my entire life.

That was a huge roadblock. And when I talk about that with law students, college students, even high school students, they it just makes it more realistic for them because they've gone through that. And I find that people don't talk about those things. So when I test anxiety thing.

Oh yeah. And when I open that door with law students, especially, they realize that things like that don't matter when you want to pursue leadership roles, especially professional leadership roles. And I I share that because they're so caught up in the moment when you're in school and this midterm is the end all be all. So I do a lot of mentoring with law students.

I just this week set up two informational Zooms with first-year law students to just talk to them about my path and how you can make a difference or get into those roles where you want to help the community, you want to help the legal field, you want to help others who may be suffering or disenfranchised under the law. And so through those methods, those ways, I think it one shows younger adults, younger lawyers that there is a path. And if you've had struggles in the past, it does not bar you from, doesn't prevent you from having leadership roles.

All it takes is either like unsolicited going to a bar meeting or two, going with a friend or a mentor. And I remember my first Greensboro Bar Association meeting. I just sat down at a table, just thinking, okay, I'm not good at one-on-one networking. I'm just gonna sit down at a table and see what happens.

And I introduced myself to the man sitting next to me, and he had a flag pin with North Carolina's flag and the U.S. flag. And I said, sir, that's a lovely pin.

I'm not from North Carolina originally. And we had a conversation and he said, Hi, my name's Bob. And I said, hi, I'm Mingi Shapitel. I'm a new lawyer.

And he just happened to be a Supreme Court justice for the North Carolina Supreme Court. But we just I didn't realize that until after the meeting, and I was talking to my mentor about it. And so it's just one of those things that you have to get a little uncomfortable, but you find a way. Um so basically you start, you went, okay, I want to be involved here with a meeting and just started introducing yourself.

And but comes back. We did the same thing with when it came to chambers of commerce when it's just a networking meeting. Yeah. Very cool.

And there's an avenue, even if you're not good on one-on-one, just walking up cold to a stranger, find a place where you're comfortable, maybe in a group setting. And now, even I tell law students, my alma mater is a block and a half away from my law schools or from my office. I work with a lot of students there, mentor a lot. And I just say, don't stick with your friends.

Come to the bar meeting, get your diet coke in your hand, and walk up to a group, or just sit down at a table where you don't know anyone. I love that. Yeah, just take the step, look at what you get from it. Yeah.

And has serving the bar leadership changed your perspective on the legal profession? I think it has. I think when I first became a lawyer, I again I was very focused on okay, I want to be an excellent family law attorney. That's what my focus is.

I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 14 years old. I'm finally here. How can I just be the best lawyer? And I thought I also want to help give back to the profession.

And so when I was newly licensed, I had, if you will, rose-colored glasses about the legal profession. And I thought it would welcome me with open arms. And not so much that I wasn't welcomed, but again, I didn't see people like me. I didn't see a lot of women in leadership roles.

And I think back almost 20 years ago to now, and I've seen four state bar presidents, women presidents, our North Carolina State Bar is the regulatory agency that regulates the legal profession in North Carolina. And seeing that, seeing family law attorney that I've looked up to throughout my career becoming president of this agency, quite honestly, of our voluntary bar, for over 14,000 lawyers. And I see colleagues who are leading that organization. To me, I just I have such a different perception of the legal profession from now than almost 20 years ago.

Wow. That's yeah. It's just it's interesting to see the difference. And you've seen so much growth from very few women to now you had four presidents.

That's fantastic. Do you feel like okay, you went in it with the idea of what you wanted? Do you feel like was it a specific leadership skill that maybe your parents helped you develop or you developed to get into that, to into that leadership, or is it just determination and this is what I want? I think determination is a big factor.

I think the greatest skill that I have learned is no matter what, if you work hard, things will come. Not that it's just going to appear, but the fruits of your labor essentially will be there. And I think working hard and making sure. That it's seen was one of the biggest things that that got me into those leadership positions.

I started with the North Carolina Association of Women Attorneys as a co-chair of the education committee back in 2015, 2016. And we planned the annual three-day conference every fall. And it turned into a very involved role that I was not, I did not realize what it was when I signed up for it or when they asked me to take on that role. But through that, working hard, having a very successful conference at that time, the conference was less than a hundred or so people.

The in I think the 2016 conference had over a hundred people. Our membership was booming. And I think part of that is other people in the profession see that hard work. And the conference was in Asheville, which is in Western North Carolina.

And so making those trips to Asheville to make sure we do site visits, we talk with the catering banquet managers, doing all of that, that hard work resulted in a very successful conference, wonderful education sessions, keynote speakers, meaningful award presentations. And so I think that's one of those things that I see day in, day out still with my parents. My dad still works at 75, and I see his hard work day in and day out. And you know, that still inspires me.

And I tell people that's where I get it from. Look at my dad. I love that. And getting your name out there, just that you're you're a leader, you're willing to get in there and yeah, I appreciate that appreciate that definitely.

And you have a new book coming out. Yes. So what inspired you to write your book, the end of end your marriage peacefully in North Carolina? I really, as I was building that part of my practice and taking advanced training, learning more, speaking with other collaborative attorneys in the state, I thought, what kind of resources are there out there for people, for the general public?

I know as an attorney, I have a lot of resources. I have resources within the state of North Carolina, the international collaborative practice world, nationally. Attorneys have resources, but there's not really a resource or something out there to educate, to give this information to anyone who may be thinking about separating from their spouse, whatever it may look, and thinking, how am I going to afford this? How am I to put my children in this public record that is going to be out there forever?

And I realized I have there's an avenue to create a resource for people to help people. I do you mentioned I do a lot of pro bono work, low bono work, and I thought, I just wish I could get this information to people. And how can I do that? So that was how the brain child thought of writing this book about about a year ago in February 2025.

And so that's where it all began, trying to create a resource for people to learn about this and see their different options to resolving a marital relationship, a co-parenting relationship that will bring you peace. I think that's great because again, like I said, most people think in divorce is going to be conflict. It can't be collaborative. So having a resource for your audience to read, I think is amazing.

Give them the tools they need to make a decision that's best for their future. Exactly. One of my favorite chapters in the book is actually a choose your own adventure, where I go through the different options of litigation, of um, I would say in the adversarial spectrum, litigation being on the most adversarial and collaborative being on the other end. And I talk about what would this look like if we went to court, if you chose arbitration, if you chose mediation and collaborative.

And I focus obviously most on collaborative family law, but I really wanted to play those scenarios out. People who will read this book can see the different options, the different ways you can resolve these legal conflicts. I love that. Examples and walking them through it.

For somebody that that may be listening to this thing, this show, and they're facing separation or divorce right now. What is the most important first step they should take to protect themselves and their family? Oh, I I will say it over and over till I'm pink in the face. Educate yourself, learn about what is most important to you and what are your legal rights and your responsibilities.

And I think oftentimes, I think also this day and age, people are very focused on I want this done, I want it done the cheapest, and I want it done now. And taking a step, I've had people come to me with an internet downloaded separation agreement. Now there's an issue, and I have to help fix that issue from just a template they got off the internet, and that may not have been even valid in North Carolina. And I often say if there's anything you can do to help yourself, it's going to be speaking with a family law attorney in your state to know what are the legal issues, what does the law say about these legal issues, and how can you protect those rights and responsibilities under the law.

And in North Carolina, we have an ethical obligation with all clients to advise them about your different options, about litigation, about alternative dispute resolution, all the different methods of resolving legal, legal disputes. And I think that's one of the greatest things we do in North Carolina, that we're required to do that. And it gives a full picture. So I think speaking with an attorney is going to be the best way to get started.

Education, absolutely. This has been such a great conversation. I loved hearing about your growth, your leadership, your book, and learning more about collaborative law, family law. I know that our listeners are going to want to connect with you, find out more about you, maybe follow you through the Bar Association Leadership.

Where's the best place they can connect to reach you? Yeah, we have a contact form on our website. It's www.lawoffice of mpp.

com. You can also find me on Instagram and other social medias. Instagram is L-O-MPP1118. And I post a lot on our inst our Instagram page about my bar work, going into different courthouses, different legal processes, child support, whether we're going to mediation.

And I always like to post what I'm doing with bar association so that people know there is a way to get involved for other law students, college students, members of the community to know that an ordinary attorney like me is going to Raleigh three times a month or once a month, whenever, to help better the profession. And so I love to share all of that on Instagram and fun photos as well. Nice. I'll make sure all of those are in the show notes.

And this has been completely inspiring. I have to say, you've been very inspiring to talk with you today. I appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

This was wonderful. Thank you. That's a wrap on today's episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Before you go, I want to make sure that you know about something that could be a real game changer for your firm.

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