Episode 61 - A Discussion with New PBA Family Law Section Chair Candice Komar | Candice Komar

Speaker A: Welcome to Law in the Family, a production of the Pennsylvania Bar Association Family Law Section, providing insights for lawyers about the practice of family law in Pennsylvania. The information shared during this podcast is for general information purposes only. Nothing in this podcast should be taken as legal advice for any individual case or situation. This information is not intended to create and receipt or listening does not constitute an attorney client relationship. The opinions expressed are those of the hosts and the POD guests and don't necessarily represent those of the Pennsylvania Bar Association.

Speaker B: Hello everybody.

Speaker C: This is the Pennsylvania Bar Association Family Law Section podcast and we're so happy to have with us today Candace Komar, who is the incoming president of the Family Law Section. I'm Carla Donnelly from the law firm of Petregallo, Gordon, Alfano, Bostick and Responde, and I'm here with attorney Effie Alexander. Effie, do you want to introduce yourself?

Speaker B: Absol. I am Effie Alexander from the Pittsburgh law firm Dickie McCamey and Chilcote.

Speaker C: And Effie and I have the pleasure today of, uh, talking to our friend and colleague Candace Komar about her upcoming year as president of the Family Law Section. So, Candace, why don't you introduce yourself? Sure.

Speaker D: Candice Komar and I am with the firm of Pollock Bay. I'm one of the founding members of Pollock Bay. We started in January 1, 2001. Our firm focus has always been family law, all different aspects of it. I've only practiced in family law my entire career. I started in a small boutique firm that was called Wilder and Miller, and then I went to the family law department of a mid sized firm called Rothman Gordon. And then I was in the family law department of Buchanan Ingersoll. Before we formed our firm in January 1st of 2001.

Speaker C: I didn't even know all that. That's very interesting. And Candice, how did you become involved with the Pennsylvania Bar Association?

Speaker D: Well, it's interesting because I don't think this is kind of the way the mentality of firms is today. But when I joined Wilder and Miller, it was just given that you would go to the Family Law Section meetings and you would be a member of the Pennsylvania Bar Association Family Law Section as well as the Allegheny County Bar Association Family Law Section. And the firm paid for the associates and the partners to go to both the winter meetings and the summer meetings. And back then the winter meetings, they pretty much flipped back and forth between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. And then every now and then, probably every four or five years, there would be, I'll call it a splash out meeting where we might Go to Maryland or New York or Toronto. And many, many years ago, we went to Bermuda. And it was at that Bermuda meeting that I bec better acquainted with someone who then became my law partner, who was David Pollitt. And David and I had always been adversaries. I liked him, but I fought with him a lot. He got on my nerves. You know how that is. Uh, you have your good days and your bad days and, you know, there was just something about that meeting. We kind of connected and we became better friends than we were adversaries. And who would have known? It must have been 10 years later when Buchanan Ingersoll was no longer going to do family law. And David reached out to our entire group and said, come join me and let's form a new fir. And like, here we are.

Speaker C: Wow. I bet a lot of people didn't know the history of Pollock Beg.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker D: And that's why Bermuda like is one of the reasons. There's a couple reasons I wanted to go to Bermuda next year. And for me, it was a really special meeting. And it also was special. I still remember this so distinctly. You know, here I, um, am, you know, a young attorney, and Bermuda was a glamorous place at the time. I wouldn't have paid for myself to go there. Right. And Justice Bayer had just recently been elected as the trial judge. And I remember him being on the beach and, you know, it was such a fun thing. When you put the flag up, they come and deliver your drink. And it was such a big deal. And he was so nice and so approachable. And I just remember that so distinctly, you know, like, I felt like I made a connection with him as a young attorney, you know, and then I'm appearing in front of him. And then I got a better relationship with David. We became close friends after that meeting, as well as with his wife Rita. And, you know, it just was a really magical trip. And who knew, like, it would reverberate. And then, like 30 years later, Justice Bayer appoints me to the CLE board. And I wind up becoming chair of the CLE board because of him and that connection that we made. It's crazy. So you never know what's going to happen.

Speaker B: I was actually at that meeting, Candace. I remember it well, and I remember some of the same memories that you have. And ah, certainly those meetings are so important to not only our group, making friends and networking throughout the state, but also giving us the reputation of one of the strongest and most aligned section of the Pennsylvania Bar Association. And I'm sure you're very proud of that. And for you to be leading that section now, soon, next month, I guess, is probably such a big goal that you set for yourself and have now achieved. In that same vein, what are your primary goals and initiatives for your term as chair of the PBA Family Law section?

Speaker D: One of the things that I have really felt that I benefited from in the later years of my practice has been the training that I have gotten in the alternative dispute space. And I've been really lucky to have gone to some international collaborative law meetings where we have had some out of the box kind of thinking and training about communication and technology and conflict resolution and negotiation and how to keep your clients comfortable, how to communicate difficult concepts to them when they're in the fight or flight mode. And I really want to try to do some trainings so that I can impart some of that to our, um, practitioners, because I felt that those trainings, even if I wasn't using them in the collaborative space, greatly assisted me in my regular practice. And just dealing with clients and dealing with opposing counsel, presenting to the court, all that was really great. So I really want to do that. I also would like to do some exposure for our group about what those alternative disputes look like. I know even within my firm, people think that collaborative laws, you know, people sitting around a table and singing Kumbaya and holding hands like they have no clue, like how that structured process moves forward. And I also would like to remove the stigma from it. You know, a lot of people think, oh, mediation, collab, arbitration, all those are easy. No, they're not easy. They're no easier. I think litigation is actually easier in many ways. Pack up a briefcase and present your evidence. What's really hard is trying to come up with a solution that fits for everybody and really thinking through and thinking creatively and then getting something that the parties can kind of still be collegial. It's better for their, for them, it's better for their kids, you know, all of that. So I like to really focus on that as well.

Speaker C: Do you think that the education that you're talking about, because that sounds fantastic, is going to be part of the winter and summer meetings, or are you contemplating there's going to be some education outside of that?

Speaker D: Well, I was really focusing on the winter and summer meetings, but that doesn't mean that's the only way it has to be. I mean, when you're the incoming chair, the big focus is who are your committee chairs going to be and getting those meetings and the education set up. But I Do think we do have an education committee and certainly there will be. I would anticipate some additional things that are coming through. Mostly that's going to be virtual, but for us, the in person things I think are critical. And that's one of the things I really love about the pba. We do have this requirement that you have to have, you know, your CLEs. And as a member of the CLE board, once the horse was out of the barn and we started doing some virtual, you know, we had to make some accommodations for people, particularly those that are in corporate space, those that are living in a more smaller county. And then the PBI stopped using the Heinz center, you know, for a live area. So I do think from my own experience, being in person is the best way to learn. I think that these meetings, once they're established and getting the programs lined up, are really the critical piece that I'm focusing on right now.

Speaker C: And who are your program chairs going to be?

Speaker D: My program chairs are going to be the same ones that we have right now, which is Amanda and Megan Del Vecchio. And I'm also going to have Melanie Widener and I'm going to ask one other person to do it. And one of the things that I'm doing a little differently is we used to have program chairs that handled it from the summer all the way through the winter. And it seems to me that, you know, the winter meeting is a big one and everybody gears up for that. And very quickly around the corner, you've got to get your summer meeting lined up. And just through conversations with Pam Cant, our executive chair, I've learned that maybe it might be better to have a second team already working on the summer meeting so that the first team isn't burnt out and scrambling to get ready for the summer meeting because the brochures go out almost, you know, you're going to press like in March or April for the July meeting.

Speaker C: I love that. I think that also injects just new blood and new ideas into the process.

Speaker D: M and I would like to have. I haven't gotten approval yet. I don't want to say. Kind of a keynote speaker that I've come to know through the collaborative space that we would pay for to come into for one of those meetings, at least one, maybe two.

Speaker B: I think that's a great idea. And especially with the alternative dispute space and what we do as family lawyers, there is so much ground that still needs to be covered in that. And so many attorneys aren't sure how to approach. Approach it or the protocol for handling cases in that manner. So I think educating them through your year as part of our programming is not only a great idea, but also, you know, we have big personalities. Lawyers have big personalities, and the family law just adds so much drama. We're not boring lawyers. Nothing we do is boring. I promise all my staff that one thing they'll never be is bored. They'll be busy, but not bored. But I think even in the nature of like vignettes or examples, and even maybe producing a video like the custody video that was done a few years ago would be an excellent idea just because it can then reach people beyond the people that attend the conferences. Because those of us that are attend are already so vested. But I'm sure there's many other attorneys that would benefit. So I think that's a fabulous idea.

Speaker D: Candace, I like your idea of the video and I do agree with you. Like a lot of times we're at those meetings and we go, well, of course, when we're talking about an ethics issue or respect issue, right. We're preaching to the choir. Because the people that really need this aren't at the meeting. Right. One of the other things that, that I would really like to impart is I would like to have some sort of understanding that we're all part of the same group. We, a lot of us that go to these in person meetings, I think should treat each other with the benefit of the doubt. Right? Like, uh, you know, instead of getting on the high horse and getting angry, like, come on, it's me. Like, let's just be cool with each other and get the case done and let's just have a little bit of like, can we put the sword down for a second? I think that that would be really helpful, like to have almost like an unspoken thing. It's very hard in this practice. Even for myself. I'm competitive. We all are. Type A, I think, like, at least on this call, and I know you guys really well, we want to do

Speaker B: well, we want to perform well for

Speaker D: our clients who want to win. When you're going into court, you have a different mindset. But hey, let's talk about what's happening out there. There's so little court time. So where does most of your time need to be? Negotiating, settling, stipulating, working through the case so that if you do have to try it, it's the least number of issues that you need to put on the table because it's practical and otherwise it's not good for your clients because that case is Going to keep lingering because you're not going to get dates all in a row and then there's going to be an appeal and all that. There's a lot of good reasons to work at settlement and to be good at settling. And, you know, one of the speakers that I'd like to bring has been really pivotal in my understanding of getting to what is it really about? It's not really about that piece of property, is it? You know, it's about something else. And is there some other way we can resolve that or give credence to that or give a nod to that, that person feels heard emotionally. And maybe another thing, without that property or whatever can satisfy whatever the economic need is, and really smart people put their heads together, you can figure things out. And there's usually more than one way to accommodate the goals of whatever the parties have.

Speaker C: I used to practice in Atlanta where we were ordered in every single case to do alternative dispute before a judge would hear anything. So we would show up to court and multiple cases would be on the calendar for the exact same time. And there would be mediators at the courthouse. Wow. And the judge would say, I'll hear you. You three go meet with your mediators. And with judge, there's no way my case is settling. This isn't going to happen. And sure enough, there was always time. You know, you would think, judge, you don't have time to hear all cases. Well, there was always time because things always got either narrowed or resolved. And it's just a matter of getting the people in the room and doing it. So I'm a huge proponent of mediation because I was forced to do it in all my cases for 12 years when I practiced and now I'm a mediator myself. And sometimes it's so daunting when you start a case and you just don't see how it's going to happen. But you're right. Just the creativity and really making people feel heard and really finding out what is going on. What's keeping them up at 3 o' clock in the morning and addressing that. And if you can address that, you can get any case settled.

Speaker D: And it's also how to make them feel heard. Like a lot of people go, well, how that sounds easy. Some of it's really simple. You use their words. Like if they don't want to call something the marital residents, they want to call it the house or whatever, you use that word because that makes them less anxious. Like, there's a lot of little things like that that I really like. To have people learn that I think would be really help helpful. You know, we lawyers like to use big words because we think that's what we're paid to do. And I'm guilty of it. I did it for most of my career. But I've come to learn that you have to meet people where they are and speak to them in their language. And then, you know, if you're working with somebody who's not an engineer or a financial expert or, you know, a finance person, and they want to draw a picture of what they're getting, you draw a picture. That's how it works. It's okay. Don't feel like, oh, they're paying me the big bucks. I got to use these big words and explain. No, no, no. You know, you really communicate. It's what it's about.

Speaker B: It really is. I'm always surprised. In Allegheny county, we were fortunate to implement, and I'm not sure if it was accidental or intentional, but we implemented those three hour conciliations with a hearing officer instead of going to a judge for all these conciliations where there wasn't as much time. And I'm always surprised at how at the beginning of that conciliation, we are convinced there's no way it's going to settle. But when you have somebody who's experienced and qualified and actually does talk through all the issues and go point by point and bring you closer to the middle, amazingly, this case that you were sure would not settle in the three hours does settle. So that kind of goes back to Carla's point about the mediators at the courthouse.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And that's why it's so important to come to those meetings fully prepared, because if you have your number with very good likelihood, you're going to settle.

Speaker D: I also think fully prepared. And you've got to have the mindset of being open.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Like, you just almost have to meditate on it. Like, I'm open. Like, let's just let it go and see what happens.

Speaker B: Agree.

Speaker D: And I'm with you, Effy and Carla, both of you. There's been so many times where I'm like, this will be an hour, we're gonna be done, and then I walk out with a full consent order.

Speaker B: What happens?

Speaker D: I love that. I love when that happens. And I don't know if that's the climate of the parties or they're just ready. I do think being prepared is a huge part of it, but I also think the talent of the mediator or the conciliator, you Know, whether it's a DHO or whatever. And I have to say, in our community, I think we're really blessed because we have really good domestic relations officers who really spend the time. I mean, I don't know what we would do without them. They're terrific.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker D: And still we're in like the golden age, right, where they're helping to get things resolved and using their talents. And I think it's great for us. One of the things that we talked about. Questions. What would you like to see? I would love to see some sort of uniformity in the practice across the state. Some uniformity, even with the procedures within our own counties, because we have many different judges doing many different things. It becomes extremely challenging as an attorney when you have to look up each person's standard operating procedures every single time because they change so much and there's so many of them. And then you practice in more than one county. It's a lot. And your staff has to be on board, too. And your associates. I always double check because you don't want to go in with egg on your face because you missed a step or something like that. One of the meetings we had that was in Charleston, it was mind blowing to me. We had people from the judiciary there. And one of the things that struck me is I saw them at breakfast. Effy, I don't know if you read that meeting. I know you were in the pageant space. And I looked at these women, and they were tall, lanky and gorgeous. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember that. They look like Miss USA contestants. Like, who are these people here? They're like the judges and lawyers that practice there. Uh, so that was fun. But when this judge said she rised the circuit, I thought, what is that about? Well, she goes to each county and sits for like a week. How could you possibly do that? Every county had the same rules.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Whoa. Like, that's mind blowing, isn't it?

Speaker C: It was the same thing in Georgia. We had uniform rules. And if there was a large county, like where Atlanta was, was its own circuit. But when you had smaller counties, there would be three or four counties in the same circuit that would share judges, and the judges would sit at different counties. But the rules were uniform, so it wasn't an issue.

Speaker B: I think our judges would have a hard time doing that because we vary from judge to judge within the same county, let alone, um, you know, from one county to the next. Some judges, you just make your motion and they rule on it. If you want, you can respond. But you don't present the motion.

Speaker D: Well, it's very interesting and I think it's educational for to learn how other states do it or even other counties. And that's one of the other benefits from the pba. I mean, you learn from your colleagues in different parts of the state how to present things, maybe how not to present things, what's worked for you, what's not, what kind of argument. And even though I am blessed to have a firm that I bounce ideas off my partners and associates, sometimes I pick up the phone and call somebody in a different part of the state because I know they've handled that issue, or I just want a different perspective and you can try it out in your own community. And it's wonderful to have those connections. What I've found is, as the years have gone by and we're more virtual and people are moving more, I'm getting more referrals from other parts of the state. And that's a huge benefit of the pba. And it's a lot easier to make a referral if you've met the person. A couple years back, as I was coming up, the officer slate, we did a survey and I am not a morning person, I'm not a breakfast person in particular, but one of the things that everybody really liked, one of their favorite things about the meeting were the breakfast, which a lot of us were surprised. But when you walk in that meeting room where everyone's having breakfast, the roar of people talking always warms my heart.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker D: It's everybody just, it's just a huge buzz. It's the energy, it's the collegiality, and it's loud because we're a bunch of family lawyers happy to be talking to each other.

Speaker C: I haven't thought about that.

Speaker D: You know what I mean?

Speaker C: You know, forces you to sometimes sit with people you don't know because you come in and you're like, where's there an empty seat?

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker C: And next thing you're sitting with somebody from Lackawanna or you know, somewhere totally different. And then you get a call and said, I need an attorney in Lackawanna. Will you go back to your list of attendees? And you're like, oh, I met that person.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker D: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: I always keep my list of attendees.

Speaker D: Me too.

Speaker B: I do too. I keep mine. I do have a question. With all the emerging challenges from technology and technology with children and surrogacy and everything that's now new, like medical ethics, how does the PBA family law section plan to tackle some of these issues?

Speaker D: Well, there's two ways. One is for us to work with a, uh, senator or someone who's a representative to institute a bill or start some legislation. What we've found lately, and this is in many years being in the pba, I have never seen so much proposed legislation coming out of the family law space in the past five years. I think it's more in the past five years than in 40 years together. I don't know why that is. I feel like maybe the different people that are in the House or the Senate promise constituents that they'll champion a certain cause for them. Maybe they've decided the family law space is where they can connect with their people for reelection. A lot of these people do not really have family law experience. And so they're crafting drafts of bills that we don't want to be enacted as they are drafted. You know, if they are going to be drafted or enacted, we at least want to weigh in and be able to tweak it a bit so that it's more user friendly or more practical just for lawyers to be working with. One of the frustrating things I feel is every time you turn around, there's a new form or a form that didn't previously exist. So family law seems to be form based anymore.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: And I'm kind of frustrated by that. I understand some of the need for it, but some of it I think might be overkill. I think that is a big challenge. Even with the custody factors I've had, judges feel like they almost need a cheat. You know, where you're checking off the factors. I mean, that's kind of robotic, right? I mean, is that really where we're going to have custody? I get that we want to have parameters, but I almost feel like the judiciary is getting bogged down by all the hoops that they have to jump through, just like we lawyers are getting bogged down by all the forms we have to fill out. Every time you turn around, there's a new new criminal abuse records history form or an inventory form or, you know, a budget or something like that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize that the PBA is a lobbying body. And in the family law section, we sometimes use the force of the lobbying body to quash legislation as much as we do it to promote legislation, or even perhaps more.

Speaker D: I would use the term, it would be more a collaborative effort to fair where we wouldn't necessarily quash. And that is one of the things that we had a drive, if you will, or competition that Jerry started, which is really worthwhile where people were encouraged to contribute to the legislative committee. Our little section is probably a third of the size of the real estate section, and the real estate section won at the annual meeting. But I was very proud that the family law section came in second. And it is really important. Our lobbyists work really, really hard. Our legislative committee for the PBA skip Hillary and Meredith, really hard. We also have a, uh, committee that I'm forming that is going to just be dealing with legislation regarding a proposed 5050 presumption of custody bill. And there's a lot more in that bill than just the 5050 presumption, which has reared its head probably every four or five years and then goes away. But this time we are thinking that it might really be a real thing that we have to contend with. We may not be able to make it entirely go away, but we may be able to have input so that it's palatable for us. And we did that with regard to cadence law. That is a huge, huge thing that PBA does and really important in more recent years. And I can't even predict. You know, it's almost like every time you turn around, Anna King, who's our legislative chair, is providing a, uh. Oh, here's another bill that's being proposed that deals with family law. Like what?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think those are the issues that affect people across our commonwealth. Uh, with the statistics of divorce being so high and children sometimes being lost in that shuffle, so much of what the legislators should care about are issues that affect families. In the end, that's why we elect them. So that's understandable. You know, individuals are not corporations. So that legislation dealing with corporation affects a much smaller faction of the commonwealth's population. So that's awesome that we continue as a group to be so active with the legislature and have. Have such input both in terms of knocking it down and trying to build

Speaker D: it up, it's probably one of the most important roles that our section does. One of the other pieces of legislation or issues that has been cropping up more than not, and I do think it needs to be addressed is pets and how pets are. I don't want to say distributed or. But how do we deal with pets in a divorce situation, in a custody situation? And I think we're going to see more bills and proposals that deal with that, uh, going forward. So we'll have to make an opinion.

Speaker B: What is the status right now of that legislation?

Speaker D: Right now it's been suggested, and it's not moving anywhere right now. It's not one of those pieces that we think is a hot button. And it certainly wouldn't be in final form yet. But that's also an issue that's cropped up every three or four years in the past, like, 10.

Speaker C: And pets have been added to the PFA statute.

Speaker D: Correct.

Speaker C: I just had my first PFA that actually ruled that my client had to relinquish a pet.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker D: It's heartbreaking, isn't it? I'm an animal person, Effie. I know you are. I just saw your dog, Carla. So it's part of it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: Especially if you have a parent that's asked to leave the house or somebody that voluntarily was left because they were afraid for their health and safety, and then you don't have the security blanket or the source of comfort that the child had. I get it.

Speaker C: Yeah. And this was not a custody case.

Speaker B: I think we have to elect more legislators that are dog lovers. Make sure that when they put their signs in the yard, they have a little picture of their dog next to it so that we can know who we're electing. I think pets are people, too. At least that's my philosophy.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think the scary part is, will the pets be used as pawns? And I think that that's where we, as, uh, practitioners on the front lines really need to work to shape the legislation. Because there are things that sound great in theory and are great on the campaign trail, but we're the ones who have to live with the implementation of these laws. And I think that, in principle, these are great ideas. And then we really have to drill down on the practicalities of how these things work. And I think that's the power of the PBA and Anna King and letting us, as a section have that voice so that we can say, look, we're the ones who've dealt with this issue day in, day out. These are the parameters that need to be in this legislation.

Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. And it has to be conveyed in a very tactful way. Like, you don't want to be condescending, you don't want to be directional. You don't want to be, oh, uh, we know everything, because this is what we're going to have to deal with. That's where the collaborative language has to come in, and that's where the lobbyist skill set comes in. And so there's a lot of finessing that has to be done that I'm still learning, quite frankly, because I am not a legislative geek kind of person. I had paid a lot of attention to how our uh, legislature operates other than what you learn in your basic civics class. But now I'm starting to learn the people and the players and how things happen and the closed door meetings and the trade offs that go on. And so it's an interesting process and we are right up front and center and that's going to be really important. I fully anticipate during my year I'll be going to Harrisburg at least once for testimony on behalf of the pba once we have made an official position that's sanctioned by the overreaching board of governors.

Speaker C: That's a great idea to have like a subcommittee focused on the custody. What other, if any committee changes do you anticipate making in your year as far as like the ongoing structure of the section?

Speaker D: Well, other than splitting the program committee into the winter and summer and having a subcommittee for the legislation that's going to be dealing with the 50 50, I don't have a specific suggestion except that I may combine the membership and the membership liaison into one committee because it's seems to make sense to me to do that. I want to try to streamline. I'm going to look through the different committee sections and see if there's anything that can be streamlined in that regard.

Speaker B: There is a growing concern about family law practitioners. You know, we have such a stressful, high stress area of practice that if you don't do family law, you know, I'm in a giant firm and I feel like an island many times along with my colleague John Demas, because many attorneys have no idea like what we do in terms of how stressful our job is. Do you think there should be a program for family law practitioners across the state to get some type of help with mental health issues or some kind of support in their practice in that range?

Speaker D: We already have a wellness committee and they've been fairly active in the past several years. And the PBA has lawyers helping lawyers committee. In um, fact the director of that came and spoke at our firm and so we already have that. I think for me, you know, I gave that thought when you posed that question. I think that a lot of it is a mindset of um, not taking it personally and having a little bit of space between you and your client from a mental perspective and also looking at the case like the other person's doing their job and trying to keep the tension down. When you're litigating it, it's easy to get caught up in it. And we all have people on the other side of cases that just oh, when you realize they've been retained. You want to die, right? It's like, oh, great. But I think we always have to keep in mind they're doing their job and it's not personal. And you need to almost have an aura about you, like a protective shield around you that you don't let that come in. And learning to compartmentalize, I think is more important than taking a yoga retreat or making sure you work out or you eat healthy or don't drink too much. You know what I mean? Like, I really think it's that. I also think from my own perspective, humor is a really good thing. And just going in the kitchen and you know, telling a story with about some crazy thing that happened with my colleagues kind of helps diffuse the tension. And being able to do that, like we do that when we go to those meetings. I always feel like those two big meetings we have are like B12 shot. Because usually after the holidays I'm run down, the clock starts at zero, you know, with your billables and whatever. And it's like in January, I feel like, yeah, I needed this. I needed this boost so I can go back in the ring and maybe get through another year. Right? All that's important. I really do think it starts with your own mindset.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: I love the B12 shot reference because I'm also part of the PBA Commission on Women in the Profession and we have a retreat every November, small plug. And I always feel after that retreat that I leave there with a B12 shot. And it's seeing, you know, my tribe, my ladies from around the state and just having that moment to reset to see each other as people as opposed to lawyers. And the same thing with the PBA winter meeting and the summer meeting. It really can be quite invigorating. So I don't think we actually had a chance to like fully formally ask you this. I know you made a reference to Bermuda, but where are your meetings this year?

Speaker D: Well, the Witcher meeting is going to be at the Omni, William Penn. And that was a, ah, decision that was made because a couple years back we had a meeting there and if we'd signed up for three meetings, we got a really good deal. And I know Bermuda is a bit of a splash out. And when we did the survey, you know, our members said that if we had cost contained meetings for most of the time that they would be willing and actually would want something that was more of a splash out, if you will, once in a while, like every four or five years and they'd be willing to Fly to it. And so that's how the Bermuda idea came about. And also, my husband's British, so I just wanted to have some kind of connection to Britain because that's part of who I am now. And as I told the story, it had some particular meaning to me. And Randy Byer, who works for us at the pba, was able to negotiate some great hotel rooms. Greats. And the hotel really rolled out the red carpet and bent over backwards because they wanted us. So I'm excited about that.

Speaker B: I love Bermuda. I think you made an amazing choice, and I can't wait to be the first one to sign up. Thank you. When that brochure comes out, I learned a lot. I thought.

Speaker D: I've been to Bermuda many times since that first meeting that the PBA had. And one of the things that a good friend of mine who started to practice family after she went with me to the Bermuda meeting, we used to go when we were at Buchanan Ingersoll, because from our perspective, if we went from Wednesday to, it felt like we were gone for a week. And when you have a 2,000 billable hour requirement, you got to get efficient. Right. Even with your vacations. So we thought we got this big bang for our time buck, if you will. And we used to go there as a little trip for us, and it was really fun. But I learned a lot more about things to do there. I used to go to golf and beach and all of that. But there's some great historic sites. There's like, uh, this whole area, the royal dockyards I hadn't been to, where there's the dolphin encounter, there's all kind of water sports, all kind of boat trips, diving things, snorkeling things. There's wonderful historic walking tours. There was a lot of history regarding the slave trade that went through Bermuda. That's really interesting. I went to a perfumery that was fun. Who knows, I might get some aromatherapy experts to come and talk to us, because anything we can do to make our offices more relaxing and our clients nicer, I'm all about.

Speaker B: I remember in Bermuda, there wasn't one angle where there wouldn't be a beautiful shot because it was just such a pretty island. But the other thing I remember is it's very hard to get a taxi or a way back to the hotel after 10pm so if you plan an outing like a dinner, not in the main town, you better make sure you arrange your transportation ahead of time, unless things have changed. This was, you know, like you said, a long time ago.

Speaker D: Yeah, well, I don't remember that when we did our site visit. But one of the things they used to have those mopeds, which they still do. Their joke was American Americans were getting their legs all scraped because there's very narrow roads and there's stone walls around a lot of them. And so a lot of people would have road rash because they'd have these accidents on these mopeds. Well, now they have something called a twizzle that's almost like a tricycle thing that's motorized, that's a lot safer. You can't rent a car in Bermuda, so you're going to take a bus or you're going to take a taxi. And, um, they're not super expensive. I don't remember if there were Ubers or not, but we'll figure that out before we have the meeting brochure.

Speaker C: Well, I'm sure everybody in the family law section is going to be looking forward to going to that meeting because it's so special. Like you said, like we're only having these splash outs every couple of years. And I know that you worked really hard at the past couple of years to try to keep the prices of the meetings down.

Speaker D: What has happened since the pandemic, and if I hadn't seen the numbers, I wouldn't have believed them. Over the years we had a certain price point that the meetings were. And what was happening is, is they were subsidized by the PBA mostly from membership dues and some sponsorships. And our, uh, membership started to dwindle. And thanks a lot to Missy Boyd, she increased the membership. Getting lost students involved early has really helped increase the membership. But that's not a big source of dues. Right. And there's not all this extra money sitting around. What happened is, once the pandemic hit, these places that used to provide your audio Visual for between 1 to 5,000 are now all of a sudden outsourcing it and it's 10, 15, 20,000. They charge you for WI fi, they charge you for plugs. It's crazy. The food cost used to go from 60 to 80 per person for a cocktail to over $200 for appetizers. You're almost better off having a dinner than having like an apple. It's. I don't even understand why that is. But it became super expensive. So that's where we started having, you know, I was on the financial committee that Hillary Monet set up and we started to really look into it. A whole series of recommendations about trying to curtail the cost because that's a big issue. Not everybody can afford to pay for it. I was blessed where every firm I've ever worked for. I mean, I can't even believe it. Every firm I've ever worked for paid for me to go to both meetings. That's not the case. I realize it's not affordable for a lot of firms, but I would really like to encourage even the smaller firms to think about the benefit. First of all, your attorneys need clean. I believe it's better to have them in person. And there are more limited in person CLE opportunities these days. It's a good opportunity for them to get it all in at once. The networking is incredible. And the development of the individual attorney is starting to happen at these meetings. The connections you're making them, being able to attend these cles, sometimes present at these cles, sometimes make a connection where they're on a leadership role or a committee or even our leadership development program for the PBA so that they can expand their own street cred and move forward. And it enhances the reputation of the whole firm.

Speaker B: I think the socializing with the. Not only the synergy and the friendships that are created, but even the opportunity to be so close to those who are deciding our cases, the hearing officers, the judges. You know, you're interacting in a setting that just is not possible during your actual practice. And I think like you said, the benefit to your clients is immeasurable. Not just in that aspect, but also the knowledge we're gaining because we're dealing. I always tell my firm, which doesn't do family law, like I said, the majority of them do insurance law that they have in House CLE for 170 lawyers. But none of those CLEs benefit me. And I don't want to learn Family Law 101. I want to go where the best of the best family lawyers in the whole state are going and where they're learning things that are cutting edge and the latest legislative decisions that are impacting us and the latest variations of custody and support laws. And that's the only place I can get it. So I agree. I highly encourage anyone that wants to do family law seriously in the state of Pennsylvania to become a member and to attend these conferences because the benefits are just immeasurable. We sound like a commercial, right?

Speaker C: Well, we are a commercial.

Speaker D: Again, we're preaching to the clerk. One of the things that I've noticed is the west hasn't attended the meetings as much and it used to be almost equal and I don't know why that is. So if anybody out there in the west is not coming to the meetings because you don't know anybody or no one talks to you or whatever. Reach out to me. I will make sure that I introduce you to a couple of people at a cocktail reception and that you feel included, because these people from across the state don't bite. They're really friendly. Don't be afraid that you don't know anyone. I mean, just come. Um, I want the whole state to know that we have a great bar. I feel really, when I look back, first of all, when I see, you know, m. My colleagues in Philly and what goes on, on. And a lot of them are collegial, but there's some disputes. Okay. I feel like we are so lucky, and I just want other people to see that.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think in particular, we have an Allegheny county presence, but we don't have a presence from the other western counties of the state. And maybe that is something that needs to be pursued. But the opportunity of having a president who is in the western side of the state to maybe travel to the other counties when they have their family law section baby meetings and go there and promote the pba.

Speaker D: Give me something else to do.

Speaker B: I'm joking.

Speaker C: Sorry.

Speaker D: I think that's an awesome idea.

Speaker B: It is. I think maybe we can schedule, like, a little social. That's not fancy, but just invite family law practitioners from the western counties to attend and maybe at that time give them our commercial for why they should join and come to the meeting. But.

Speaker D: Well, that was one of the things that I thought of. Effy, you know, like what I really like, you know, getting back to the breakfast idea. What is it about that? It's really a chance for us to, in, uh, a really casual setting setting, meet each other, talk about a topic or whatever. And it might be nice to have either a reception of some sort, whether it's in Allegheny county or Westmoreland or Butler, where more than one county can come and we can all kind of share ideas, something informal, you know, it doesn't have to be long. Maybe a topic, maybe not. Where we're going to just be together and get to know each other a little bit more without having to travel to one of the meetings, which might not work for some people.

Speaker C: And it might help to have some of the judges from those counties come because they're always a draw. Draw as well.

Speaker D: What Missy has done is she's gone to the outlying bar associations and has done a, uh, presentation, whether it's on the guidelines or the new custody factors or something. Like that. And that has been a good draw. And it's also generated people thinking, well, maybe I'll resign for the family law section. Because a lot of people go, well, what does it do for me? Well, one of the things I think is great, and Carly, you've been involved in this is our lunchtime lectures where people get occasionally case, uh, updates on a periodic basis. Great opportunity to showcase associates. Great opportunity for your associates to learn about new developments in the law. And that's been terrific. The listserv people seem to really like. That's been terrific. What else are we doing? We're doing the ah, leadership development initiative that Hillary came up with was genius because who knew a lot of people were not getting involved because they didn't know how. They didn't know anything about the working. So of it. True confession. I didn't. How did I get here? Right around the pandemic, it was just easing up. I got a call from Jerry Shoemaker and Helen Casal. Jerry Shoemaker used to practice in this county. I was friendly with him and then stayed friendly when he moved to Philly. Helen and I took the academy test together. So I know her from that. And they called me out of the blue. I said, ah, hey, can we schedule a call? Sure, whatever. We wanted you to throw your hat in the ring for Officer Slate. And I, I went, what? I have never served on council. I had never been on a committee. I had spoken at programs. I like to party. I socialized like, anybody's business. And I was like, not thinking about it. And I said, well, let me give it some thought. And then I realized where I was in my career and I thought I was ready for something like that. And so I said yes, and here I am. It's a long Officer Slate, but it took me, me all that time to kind of learn the workings of, uh, the bigger picture pba, the family loss section within the PBA and how things happen. And one of the things that's so amazing to me, and I feel that I was not grateful enough growing up in the practice is the committee chairs and the work they do. And they are so talented and so hardworking. And you just want to go, thank you. You know, um, because that's really what's the engine that's running this thing. In particular, and especially in recent years, our legislative people and of course the program committee chairs have always done a yeoman's job. So that's been super interesting to me. And here I am. It goes quick. You think, oh, wow, it's a long Track, turn around. Here it is.

Speaker C: Here it is.

Speaker D: So, here we go. Here we go, Steelers.

Speaker C: Well, thank you, Kansas. This has been awesome to get to know. I mean, I've known you for years, and I've learned things about you today that I didn't know. And to get excited about your upcoming year, we're so, you know, looking forward to it. And it sounds like there's so many things on the horizon that everybody in the Family law section has to look forward to. So thank you. And I'm not sure when this is coming out. We look forward to seeing you in Chicago, but, uh, this may come out after Chicago. I'm not sure.

Speaker D: And I would just like to say you both gave me ideas as we were even talking. If anybody has an initiative they'd like to see, suggest, or an idea they'd like to suggest, please send me an email. I'm, um, open to any suggestions. If anybody wants a volunteer to undertake any initiatives, I'm open to that as well. This is your section. I want to make it the best it can be.

Speaker B: And I just want to add that we've had such dynamic leadership in the Family Law section of the pva, um, one after another. And Jerry Shoemaker is one of my favorite people in the world. You know, I thought he'd be a tough act to follow, but if anyone can take the reins and follow in his footsteps.

Speaker D: Thank you. I'm really humbled. When I first got on the officer slate, I believe Darren Hulse was president, and Darren and then Helen and then Missy and Hillary and Jerry and Carolyn. Zach is coming up behind me, and we early on said we're going to support each other, everybody's initiatives going forward and behind us. We're all in this together. And it has been a strong, dynamic officer slate. And I've been humbled, you know, watching them in action. I've learned so much from them on leadership, on all kinds of things. They become like my favorite people and some of my best friends. Totally. It's a wonderful chance to meet people from across the state that I would never have met.

Speaker B: For as adversarial as our practice can get, the fact that even within our own county, where we go head to head with each other and the fact that we can be so close and respect each other and actually be friends and like each other and know that we're doing what's best for our clients is amazing. And I'm so proud that you can spearhead that legacy to live on. Candace, thank you. Thank you.

Speaker D: Thank you. Effie. Yes, thank you Candace. You're the best. Thanks, ladies.

Speaker A: Law and the Family is a production of the Pennsylvania Bar Association Family Law Section. To learn more or to join the section, visit the Pennsylvania Bar association website@uh pabar.org and be sure to follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter. And to catch up on every episode, join us@anchor fm lawinthefamily a reminder that nothing in this podcast should be taken taken as legal advice for any individual case or situation. This information is not intended to create an attorney client relationship. The opinions expressed are those of the hosts and the guests and don't necessarily represent those of the Pennsylvania Bar Association. Thanks for listening and tune in for future podcasts.