Identity at Work | Authenticity in Leadership Development

Speaker A: 1, 2, 3, 4. Welcome, everyone back to another episode of Leadership from the Heart. We have with us today bringing them back, Kat and Rich. Kat and Rich, welcome back. Thank you for being here.

Speaker B: Thank you for having us.

Speaker A: Yes. This is a continuation from our first episode a couple of months ago. This episode, we decided to talk about identity split in the workplace. And so we bring them back today, and we want to just kind of have like, a grounded conversation about what. What it means to have this split identity. And this is kind of where my work has been going anyway. Um, just talking about how do we bring our whole self to work, and I'm really happy to have you guys because I think the three of us are kind of in the same place where we all work corporate jobs, and yet we are making our dreams come true outside of that. So this is a really cool conversation to have with you two, and I'm excited to jump right in. So let's do that. Let's start with you, Kat. Like, when did you notice? First, let's talk about what the identity split means to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the identity split, and I think we talked about this a little bit in the last episode is this feeling of. At least for me, let's just split it up into, like, the weekdays and the weekends. Like, the weekends I'll lead classes and I'm in the super easeful, more like feminine, if you will, energy, where I get to just kind of like, lead people to relax and connect with their breath and. And just feel really in tune to what I'm natural at. Versus. During the weekdays, I go into my 9 to 5 and I'm like, okay, now I need to be more, like, logical and organized and strategic and. And sometimes showing up to work during the week days, it can feel like this disconnect because on the weekends I have so much fun and I feel so energized. And on the weekdays, I'm sitting behind my desk and I'm like, okay, how can I remove this dissonance that I'm feeling in my life and bring it all together so it can just kind of harmonize into one experience? I don't know if that was long winded, but I was going to ask

Speaker A: you for more, but I figured, let's go to Richard for a second.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: For me, again, Kat used the word dissonance. I think she used the same word m when we talked about this last time. It so accurately captures, I think, what it feels like. I think for me, I'm drawn to, like, thinking about the source of. Of where that split comes from. Right? Like, you know, in my day to day job, how I pay my bills, I think I. It almost feels like I'm using a different part of my body and my brain. So when I go to that other side and I'm. And I'm working on something, that feels more like a passion, right? Like the. It's like jarring. It's like whiplash. Um, a little. Right. I'm like. Like I have this whole, uh, whole ass. Other thing that I. That I can pull from. Right? And. And you know, for me, it always ends up just transparently I end up walking away feeling like. Like I have more questions than I do answers. Right? I'm kind of like, okay, well, should I be pulling from this.

Speaker A: This.

Speaker C: This other place, this passion. Right? Right. Where my preferences, my, you know, whatever I happen to be feeling in that given moment or day or season or whatever the case may be help drive my decisions and creativity versus Right. Like, you know, using cats. Cats analogy. My. My. My weekdays, my 9 to 5, where, you know, just. Again, transparently, it's bottom line, right? I have a very specific, like, target, and it's all, like, about math. That helps me get there. And again, I'm not suggesting one is better than the other. In fact, I think I actually get joy from both of those parts of myself. And I guess, you know, um, my hope is that in this conversation we'll talk about how the thing. How those things can either coexist, if they can coexist at all, if they should be. If they should ever even feel different.

Speaker B: But.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's what I would say. Just how it feels and where it comes from and like, what the objectives are when I'm in those spaces is what I want to kind of like, surface for this conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah. When did you guys. And, um, I don't. I mean, I don't care who goes first, but when did you guys notice that there was like, a work version of you? Was it when you started your passion project or was it before that? You can.

Speaker C: You can start us off, Kat. I got some thoughts, but my.

Speaker B: My. My transparent answer is like, I just have never felt like a. A office girl. So, like, maybe at birth. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, hey, that's the answer, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, you can't think of a specific moment where I'm like, this is so not me. I'm gonna pass it to you, babe.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I think for me it's when, uh, you know, and Romy, I think you'll be Able to ID with this. As I started to, like, get promotions and, like, get external validation that people were telling me, like, man, you're. You could. You could do this job. Or, hey. Or they actually got. Got those jobs. As I. As I started to move up and, like, have to manage people, and I started to, like, be in rooms that I wasn't in before, when I was more of, like, an individual contributor, I think that's when it got really, really loud. Because there was an energy in those rooms where I was like, oh, wait, I don't know. This doesn't feel so natural right now. And, you know, like, I feel like I can be. What's the word? Like, flexible, socially flexible. And I have a way of, like, wanting everyone around me to feel comfortable. And so those two things, actually, now I'm m saying it out loud, those are two dangerous things to live with each other, right? That is like being in spaces where it doesn't always feel natural, and then having the desire for. For the people around you to feel comfortable both with you and just generally, um, and I. When I started to get those promotions and be in rooms that I wasn't always in as an individual contributor is when it really got loud. It was probably always there, right? But that's when it just became really clear to me that there was this, like, person I was bringing versus, you know, who I was when I stepped. Stepped away from it.

Speaker A: And was there, like, a specific thing about being in those rooms that made you think through that? And I say that because, you know, just like you. When I started to, uh, be in rooms that I wasn't in, I started to realize how much nobody knows what they're doing and everyone is winging it. And I was just like, hold the phone, hold the phone. Because when you guys are talking to us downstairs, we're acting like we're the adults in the room, but behind the door, we're throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Like, how about we show that to the people downstairs so that they know what's going. That was where I was just like that. So I. You said that, Richard. And I was just like, oh, 100% being in the room now. And I tell people all the time that want to grow. I'm like, are you sure? Because it's like you're gonna get disappointed when you get in the room. It's not all it's cracked up to be, you know, And. And what it gave me as a gift, though, I have to admit, was the freedom that, like, we don't have to know what we're doing. We just have to be able to be vulnerable enough to say, guys, I don't know, but we're gonna try this. And if it works, great. But I don't want to pretend like I know what I'm doing if I don't know what I'm doing. And I think that that's where the disconnect for me came from. Like, why are you pretending if you don't know, it's okay not to know.

Speaker C: You know, I think for. For me too, is that they, um. As you start to get in those rooms, that there's this, like, you know, maybe this is the. This is the environments that I found myself in. And definitely, if my boss ever watches this, not in the rooms that I'm in today, for sure.

Speaker A: Same, same.

Speaker C: But, uh, there is this, like, subtle pressure, I think, to, like, you know, think in certain ways and. And be the one that. That ID solutions and ask the questions that. That ultimately solve the answers and stuff. Like, there's. And again, you know, in. In healthy. In healthy leadership, I think some of that's okay. Right? You know, you want. You want to bring a certain kind of, uh, energy to. To that room, but it's just, again, it's like a fine line. It's a really, really, really fine line. It can consume you, you know, um, how you. How you behave, how you operate, how you act, how you think in those. In those spaces. And again, it's just like the more and more you're in them, the more and more jarring it feels right to come home or to, like, you know, work on your meditation practice or. Or build, like, your podcasting community. Like, you know, because again, uh, I just feel like it's such a different. A different part of you that you're tapping into. Right? Right.

Speaker A: Kat, any thoughts?

Speaker B: I just started to think about, like, how I've started to integrate the two, because, like you said, it can be really hard to have this 9 to 5 and then turn on this other side of your brain where you need to be, like, more creative or whatever it might be, depending on what you're doing. And I've started to wake up earlier. I love sleep. I used to be the person who. Used to be the person who would literally wake up five minutes before I needed to be at my desk. I don't know how I did that, but I've been waking up a lot earlier, and I've been dedicating just one hour to doing, like, things that are more for my meditation Breathwork business. And it's made it feel like less of this, like, dichotomy, I guess, if you will. Because I start with my morning, with my routine, and I do the meditation, breathwork stuff, and then I, like, slowly ease into my more logical 9 to 5 side of business. And it just has kind of become one in a really delicious way.

Speaker A: So, yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, I do the same. I'm like, up at like 4am just to get stuff going in my business. And then, you know, like you said, it's just much easier to go into work after. You know, I do it before sometimes after work too. Uh, but it feels much easier to go in and be logical once you've been already creative and doing things that light you up. Uh, you know, it's. It is. It is interesting. How do we allow for all of it, for all of you to be at work? Like, how does that. What does that even look like? Do you guys have an idea?

Speaker C: I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say on this one. This isn't. And, uh, like last time, you know, we're getting to it a lot earlier this time, though. Around. This is something I'm personally and like, actively managing and trying to. To figure out right now. So I'm. I'm curious, you guys perspective on this.

Speaker A: And I guess a better question is, was it. Was it always professionalism or was it suppression?

Speaker C: M. I think when I was younger. I don't know if you're asking me directly, but I'll jump in. I think when I was younger, I didn't know the difference. Right. And so, uh, you know, I like, kind of. There's this funny clip online where it's like, from this show called Mad Men. And the guy's like, talking to like, one of his interns or something like that, and he says. And she's like, in her first two years at the ad agency. And he says something to the effect of like, everything to you is an opportunity, right? And he's, you know, they're going back and forth about, like, getting credit for something. And I think I came especially early on in my professional career. I came in with this perspective. Like, uh, just everything. Like, I'll take anything, right? Like, help me learn. You know what I mean? And I was kind of like, allowing if. Oh, you need me to suppress, like, you know, my quirkiness. Yeah, for sure. No, I. I'll do that. Yeah. It's gone. Forget about it. Do you. You need me to like, you know, be a numbers guy, right? And like, ignore that. Like, everything is.

Speaker A: Can't be driven by numbers.

Speaker B: For sure.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah, whatever. Numbers are everything. And it was, like, kind of one of those things where I. I thr parts of myself that I think became more naturally to me. Um, and so early on, it was definitely suppression, but I couldn't tell the difference. I thought, like, well, that's just what professional. Professionalism is.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I think now, as I've gotten older and I'm in some of those rooms and I've met, like, different types of leaders and learned. And I've mentors from the. You know, uh, and learned from some of my mentors. I think it is. It's selective suppression. Right. And I think it's masked as professionalism. That's not the answer to your question, but just my personal experience on how I've sort of moved from suppression to being aware that there is a split between those two things. Yeah.

Speaker A: Kat?

Speaker B: I think after listening to Richard's response, I was like, oh, I feel like. To Babe's response, I feel like I kind of had the opposite experience. Like, mine was like, oh, I'm not good at numbers. So, like, I'm not good enough. So it'd be, like, me trying to make up for that in ways and, like, maybe trying to. Or maybe not even trying. I think for me, it's more of, like, an inner narrative I developed where it was like, the things I'm good at naturally are not what my boss necessarily wants me to shine and do. So it was more of, like, a, um. I almost had, like, an anxiety about it, about who I was. Like, I was. Like, I was not meant to be there. Like, I was an imposter. We got there.

Speaker A: We got there. We've landed.

Speaker B: Yes. So I think mine was more masked in, like, imposter syndrome.

Speaker C: Um, how about you, Romy? Do you feel like there's a distinction there? And at what point do you.

Speaker A: If. If.

Speaker C: Yes. At what point did you recognize it?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think for me, hearing you guys, I think for me, it was what? Well, we got programmed, right? Like, in school, we weren't able to be ourselves. Right. We were told to sit down. We have a test. We're in this class. We're doing science. Whether you want to do science right now or not. And so it is literally just a program to help you be compliant in the workplace. So when you got to work and they were like, hey, that's not allowed. You're like, okay, I know how to. I already know how to put it away, because I've had to put it away my whole life. And so for me, it was, you know, a lot of, uh, like, almost your point, Richard, where, like, oh, this is, this is how it is here. Okay, cool. Like, I want to be here, so I'm going to do whatever it takes to be here. And when did I realize that it was suppression, man? I think. I think the first time I realized it was when they were doing, like, a massive layoff at, um, a job that I was at. And I could not understand how if, like, we've done all the things that you've asked and, you know, we're doing well and we're successful, like, what is, what is the purpose of this? And I think I told you guys that my mom was just like, that's just business. And I was just like, what? I was like, wait, wait, wait. So there's a difference between the two? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, from that moment on, I was IKlist's business. And then I became business. So I could leave whenever I want. You could fire me whenever, uh, you want. I don't owe you anything. You don't owe me anything. But because of my integrity and because of who I, um, am, I always bring what I have, you know? But there is no. How do you say that? There is no true loyalty anymore. Right? It's just, it's. It's just a job. And what I don't understand, I feel like I'm shifting gears here, is why people, and it's probably our parents generation, why they don't understand that people see it as just a job because you've made it that way, you know? And so when we're having these discussions and they're just like, I don't know what it does. I'm like, well, if you put yourself in their shoes, would you not be doing the same thing? And their answer every time is like, well, yeah, of course. And I'm like, so then, like, why are we acting like what they're doing is so crazy? It's not crazy. It's normal. Because we're humans, at the end of the day, we get scared when we think we're going to lose our job because it's our survival, like, all of these things. And I think that's the piece of me that just can't. I can't get down with that old school leadership of where we're going to pretend like it's not normal for you to have feelings, but it's normal for me to have feelings when I want to So I know I shifted gears there, but yeah, that was.

Speaker C: We have a question on that, if you don't mind.

Speaker A: Of course not.

Speaker C: Yeah. Do you think that it's helpful, uh, or it could be helpful to acknowledge that distinction of like, this is just work and it. Because I think at that point what could come of that is that again, I'll be careful here, that it's just a, it's, it's a means to an end. And so, and because it, it, it becomes this kind of means to an end, you're able to, I think, remove some of like the, like, you know, uh, our, um, us taking things personally or us in some way, you know, you know, feeling all these little feelings about things. Right. Because I can say firsthand early on when things would happen that uh, were just business, right. They meant this like, really, really personal thing to me.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And as I've grown, as you know, in my career, when these things happen, they brush off me a little bit easier. Right now, now, not for the better, I'm saying, really, the question I'm trying to get to is, is there, um, is there a positive to accepting and acknowledging that there is this difference? Like, that just serves this purpose. And I have this whole other thing, a set of priorities, values and ideas that are important to me. And this thing over here just helps me get closer to those.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that, I think it's made me a better leader at remembering that it's just business. Right. But it's made me a better leader because I don't leave the human part of me at home. And I think that the old school leadership left that part at home and expected you to leave it too. Where now we're entering this new phase where, you know, and I, I just did. My last podcast was about this, like, AI is here, automation's here. So the things that we needed leaders to think, to strategize to, all of those things are being done for you. You want to write an email, throw it into co pilot, it's going to make it. You want to sound more a professional, throw it into copilot. So there's very little thinking that we're having to do now. So what is, uh, what's rising is the humanity part of us. And if you don't have that, if you didn't sharpen that, you're. You're almost like you're getting phased out, you're getting extinct. Because we already have the thinking being done for us. And so I think the separation of business and feelings like church and State was a great thing for me, but I remember allowing people to have feelings because I was just like, oh wait, I have feelings about that. And then when somebody else would have feelings, I'd be like, yeah, it's okay to have feelings about that. Of course now what you do with those feelings because we're at work is the thing. Right. But I think that that's where we're entering, I think we're entering this very unique phase that people are all, what are they paying attention to? AI, how it's taking over and they're not even noticing the rise of connection that's needed of like the, again, this human being part of being. And you know, I think some people are going to miss it. I think a lot of people are going to catch it because it's kind of obvious like new businesses that are coming up and they're just businesses for people to connect. It's like a meetup that's happening for no other reason than to just to meet up and talk because we don't do that anymore since 2020, you know. And so I think it's, it's changing for the better and I just want more heart led leaders to come into the space and I know why they don't. I get it. It's tough. I know bro. Trust me, I know. And we need you. Like it's, it's a heavy lift when you're just doing it with a skeleton crew. You know, we need more heart led leaders who have the heart to like, who care about people, just care about people and always think about how does this impact them? Um, it's not going to stop the impact. A business decision is a business decision. But what we do with that business decision and how we relay the message and what we do to, I don't know, uh, lower the impact of risk is everything, it's everything we, we didn't,

Speaker C: sorry and your podcast, but I just, I want to make sure that we cover this because I feel like both of you will have really, really cool perspective on this. Is alignment with this sort of split in the workplace possible and right? Like you know, this, this kind of self that we are outside the self that we are inside the workplace. Um, is it possible and is it the right thing to work towards? Right. I, I, I'm genuinely asking, I don't, I don't really have a, ah, a perspective here. But again you, you come into work or you have your own business and, and there's this kind of like, you know, I think we talked about this last Time that can, can feel like there's almost like physical weight between those two things, you know, having to carry them. Is it the right thing to bridge the gap between those two things and bring more of this kind of like, you know, using Cat's analogy, weekend self and into your 9 to 5 Kat?

Speaker B: I think so. And I think, I don't know if you both feel this way. I think as I'm like listening to our conversation, it's just like, at least from my experience, I'm like, I think it's just me getting in my way. Like it's me looking at these things as polarities when they're not. Like, it's just me think like me creating this narrative.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: That uh, I have to be this one person in this one space or I can't bring these things into another space. Because I do think to a certain extent it's like no different than a relationship that I would have with my parent versus a best friend. You know, like they, they're both me, but I would talk about different things with both parties, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So yeah, I don't know that it's good or bad, but I think for us as people, it can feel more freeing to just know like, you don't have to separate the two.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that because what I found is I, uh, was separating the two. Basically, you live two different lives, but as I've carefully brought one side into the other, what it does and what's so cool about this is it is in your head. Because when you start to talk about the things that you're passionate about, what do other people start to do? Uh, yeah, they start to talk about the things that they're into and then you find commonalities and you're like, I didn't know you were into that. And they're like, yeah, I'm super spiritual. And I'm like, wow, well, let's talk about spirituality for five minutes, you know? And you're just like, damn. Like, and again, all of this because we're at work and we shouldn't be talking about this, but like, we're at work. We probably should be talking about this from time to time during our breaks and stuff like that so that we could know each other a little bit more, so that we could work better together. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you know, I do think that there is a time and a place for it. And I think that most, most of the distinction, most of it lives in our head and we're just afraid to bring it. Because then what does that mean? Right? You know, so I encourage everyone. I'm like, talk about the things that you're into. I think we did. We were in a meeting, uh, not too long ago and somebody brought up somebody's like, like I say, hidden talent. Obviously it's not hidden if somebody knew about it. And I was just like, damn, how cool would it be if we just did like a company I work for, talent show where everyone got to bring their talent. And like, my boss was like, yo, that's a dope ass idea. We should do that. Just do what you're good. We don't know what you're good at. We have drummers and singers and this and uh, people who do stand up comedy and all of these things about people that we don't even know they did. We don't even know because we don't ask because we're at work and. But there's a whole other side to people that if they knew was accepted, I think we would get the, the results that we would get would be fantastic. Because they didn't. They don't have to hide either.

Speaker C: That's powerful. Again, I appreciate you guys perspective and I, I think you're spot on and that it's probably a narrative that we, we tell ourselves. And I think the thing as you were speaking, Kat, um, what came to me is that like the reason you, you have that narrative and we talk. You talked about this split earlier, Romy, like, between fear and truth is that like, there's a fear there that you're unraveling or letting go of the like, core of like what helped you get the job, um, get the promotion, do good at this project or whatever the case may be. And so it's not just like, oh, there's this like this random split. The split represents a letting go of something that for better or worse has been, um, you know, has had some utility right. For you in your life. So I think that's. Maybe this is me just speaking from my own personal experience, but I think that like, again, it's the letting go of the like, pragmatic and utility of, of that fear. I don't know if that means anything, but that's what it seems like at least.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And on the flip side of that, like, you know, because, you know, we were told like, hey, don't bring that here. And we were like, cool, I'll leave that outside the door. Like, what does it mean now if they accept you as you are? Like, I, uh, so this Whole time I could have been, you know, but it hasn't been this whole time because the shift wasn't there before. The language, you know, the language wasn't there before. The awareness of where we are now. It wasn't there before, it's here now. And so that's why I think we're having a lot more conversation about it now. But it wasn't, it wasn't there before. Like talking to my brother and he was, you know, we're talking about our parents. And I was like, yeah, but like, they didn't know this stuff back then. This wasn't there. This is new information. How can we hold them accountable to stuff that like the language, the vocabulary, all of this stuff wasn't there then, it's here now. That's why we feel so high and righteous. Because like, we're like, we know you're our parents. And I'm like, that wasn't, that didn't exist. What existed back then was just get through like Monday through Friday, feed the family, survive.

Speaker C: And I think too like the, when you think about this kind of thinking around leadership and just being in the, in like, uh, you know, in the workplace, I think there are companies who are aware, like, we need to at least be doing something. And like, so they'll be like, you know, throw some dollars at like a program or something like that and look good on them, right? They like, they see it. Whoever the HR person, if you, if you happen to hear this, you're doing God's work, right? But like, but like, I actually think the thing that works like so many other things is like the example that you gave Romy. That is like an individual opening up the space for the people around them to feel comfortable to do the same. You know what I mean? And like, it almost like permeates from that. That's. And, and on a lot of ways. Look, we're not talking about like company culture, but like, that is the culture, right? Like, you can, you can, you can hire HR people. I used to work in an employer brand for a pretty big organization, you know, and part of that was like culture building and stuff like that. You can run programs all day long. The culture comes from those individual sort of micro, uh, moments of people feeling like, oh, yeah, well actually, you know, I can share this weird thing or I can, I don't have to appear as perfect. I can, you know, be self deprecating in some way. You know, So I just wanted to make that point. Like, I think it's both. I think it's good that organizations have these kind of like uh, programs and they think about these kinds of things. But I actually don't think it sticks unless you have a sort of micro environment for individuals. Yeah.

Speaker A: The integration part of it for sure.

Speaker B: Maybe we all just need to laugh together a little bit more, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, because unless you're in the, unless you're in the hospital, we're not really saving lives anywhere. So why is it so serious?

Speaker B: You know, um, even, even Richard and I, there's some weeks where we're like, we just need to laugh a little bit this week. Like let's watch something funny or like, you know, it really changes everything.

Speaker A: Mhm. For sure. For sure. Let's talk about like what happens when the leader is disconnected. Cause I think the culture comes from the leader. Right. Like your point, you know, so let's talk about what happens when, when leadership is disconnected from themselves. Have you ever experienced that?

Speaker C: You're setting me up here, Romy. Um, the. I have. And Kat, I know you have a perspective on this, but I think for me you're, you're spot on in that it's like trickle down. Right. Like if the leader is operating from that space, then those little micro, I'm going to call them, like opportunities to set culture are going to be set in an environment where people feel pressure or uncomfortable opening up themselves or saying things right. That might be wrong or asking questions that might make them feel like silly or stupid or whatever the case may be. Um, and so I think it will, it will trickle down and you know, look, depending on the circumstances you can, may you can maybe you know, I don't want to say survive but like you know, have an environment that, that feels that way for a while but long term it's going to be, it's going to be tough. Again, this is like you know, uh, not um, something that I came up with. I'm sure we've all heard it right, that like people don't quit jobs, they quit people kind of a thing. Right. Like I just. Not that longevity is the success is like the, the measurement for success on a team. But I just think that you're just rating what could be on a team if you're not opening opening up those, those opportunities for people to be their, their full selves jobs.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And so again that's not to say that you can't make it work. Right. There's such thing as toxic environments and people depending on the circumstances, people are willing to deal with them for certain amounts of time. But I, you know, and I think we touched on this last time. I think for one, it can't last, but m. More to the point, like, on a day to day basis, I don't think you're getting the full capacity of what someone's capable, like, actually capable of. Right. I know for. I say this to Kat all the time, and this is actually something happened, I don't know, in the last, like, couple of years. Sorry. And I know I'm.

Speaker A: I'm.

Speaker C: I'm kind of rambling here a little bit, but I had somebody that I worked with. This person was absolutely brilliant. They were really, really, really smart. But for whatever reason, I didn't quite understand why. You know, that was just. It felt like friction. We were kind. It was like top level stuff. We were, we were very. We were very kind with each other. And as I started to, like, evaluate that relationship, I realized that, like, he was so brilliant, that it was like. It was like sometimes so jarring to me. And when I was in rooms with this individual, I felt like I wasn't like, you know, the best rich. I felt like I wasn't. And it wasn't him, it was me in my. In that. In that perception. And so, um, kind of. I'm kind of losing the point here, but I really genuinely think that, like, addressing that and creating an environment where people feel fully comfortable actually, like, has a tangible impact on your ability to just, you know, do things and get things done. It's not even just comfortable. It's comfort being wrong. We can get into all the details of it, but just like, I think we know the kind of room we're talking about. Uh, so I don't know if I answered your question. I said a lot there.

Speaker B: I have a question, actually, because I feel like the both of you have led teams. Have either of you felt like you've just been caught up in everything and you realized you were disconnected from yourselves and maybe your team was feeling that, and if so, like, what did it feel like and what did you do to redirect yourself or reconnect yourself?

Speaker A: Yeah. So anytime I feel like my team is getting chaotic is what. What it feels like for me is, um, I kind of look around myself and see, like, what. What am I, what am I missing? Like, what. Where am I not dialed in? You know what I mean? And I don't mean dialed in from like, uh, a perspective of like, holding all the balls in the air. I just mean dialed into, like, myself. Right? Like, where am I missing? What am I missing? And Then the second thing I do is just tell the team, like, hey, I take full ownership for where we are right now because I haven't been X. You know, I also thank them for sorry, I got two dogs. Yeah. Also thank them for holding down the fort while I haven't been my best self. Right? And then I just kind of jump right into, okay, these are the things that I think we're missing. This is. These are the areas I think we're chaotic. Let's talk through it. Because that's the way I lead best. Talking through problems with the entire team, like, whoever needs to be there. But the first thing I do is just acknowledge the fact that, like, I know that I miss this because clear, if they're a reflection of me, I missed something, right? And that's. That's okay because now we get to have the conversation when they miss something. Like, I mean, I don't, uh. I don't feel like I've had for years now. I don't feel like I've had to convince someone that they missed something. They're just like, yeah, my bad. Won't happen again, or, yeah, my bad, whatever, you know, Because I am so, uh. I'm like, guys, I mess up a lot of things, like, and I am giving myself grace all the time, and you guys give me grace, and so it's reciprocated. And so, you know, for me, I think that that's kind of where I go first. And then we just level set. We just level set.

Speaker B: So do you feel like your. Your ability to hold yourself accountable gives your team the ability to hold themselves accountable 1000%?

Speaker A: They can hold me accountable, too. You know, sometimes they tell me, uh, you know, like, hey, Romy, you're getting too involved. Like, go kick rocks is kind of like the thing they tell me, and I'm like, thanks, appreciate that, and I'll go kick rocks. Because they don't need me to get involved. Wherever I'm trying to peek in and get involved, for whatever reason, I'm trying to get involved. And we just have this very open way of dealing with each other. Still very professional. But it started when I started to admit the things that I wasn't good at, because I started in leadership, trying to hold it all together because I thought that's what leaders do. Then once I realized you didn't have to, I was like, fuck, maybe this is for me, because I'm kind of tired trying to hold everything together and pretend and perform. I'm not a. I'm not that great. At performing that long term, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, that felt spot on, Romy. I think the creating an environment where you can be transparent about what you're not perfect at or great at or again, something I really, really try to do with the teams that I manage. The other thing and this is going to sound like, yeah, well, obviously, but like, you know, is when stuff gets hectic or there's a lot to do or something gets messed up, like genuine presence with that individual, I think. And again, like, I feel like I'm saying, I'm trying to say something really like, you know, important here, but it feels like obviously no dub, but like, it's not. It's not that common. It's obvious, but it's not always common. Right. Like, and so like, when something's happening, I use my sort of sense to determine whether or not this is something I like, legitimately need to like, commit time with you on and talk about. Because you either you don't feel comfortable or there's something that was missing or you lack or I was lacking direction. I, uh, gave. I gave you the wrong or like in complete direction. And I commit time to helping that person feel comfortable about that situation, that task, that project, that whatever that thing is. Right. And so I really, really lean on both the things. Like that is, you know, Romy's perspective around, you know, opening up an environment where, where we can, you know, be just transparent with each other about everything. But also like true, genuine, genuine presence. Right. And that's not to say that I'm not present all the time. Right. But like, all of your projects are not going to get an equal amount of presence from me. Some of that is like your thing that you need to drive, you need to run. And so, yeah, I think, and I just want to say the last point I'll make on it is that that can come from a couple. That can like the source. That can come from a couple of different things. That can come from them not having clear direction up front. That can come from me not being present at a time where maybe I should have been. That can come from even above us. Right? Like just overall lack of direction and like something being missing in the plan. And so. But regardless of like, how it like develops, I think that your role or your responsibility as like a leader of, of people is to address it with like, real, real true presence.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And. And I would add that just brought up something for me. You know, you have all types of players on your team and I don't, I don't Know if I like to call them A players or B players, because then that's just the school system bs, right? But like, let's, like, let's talk about high performers, right? Because I feel like we're probably high performers. And, uh, something that I do for my high performers is not add any pressure, right? Because the amount of pressure that high performers put on themselves is more than enough, you know, so, like, something went wrong, you know, and they're like, oh, man, Romy. So and so did like. And they want me to drop the hammer on this person. And I'm like, I gotta be honest with you guys. I think I'm gonna give a lot of grace right now. I'm not even gonna bring it up because I already know what they've gone through because of this screw up, right? And I think that that's the piece that, like, people need to know when you're dialed in as a leader, you know, when to apply pressure and when to remove pressure. Right? Because a lot of high performers already have enough.

Speaker C: I love this.

Speaker B: That is a great point.

Speaker C: I'm not trying to cut you off. This is like, I want to write this down.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Legitimately. This is, um, this is. Yes, this is a key, Romy. Truly.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so, like, what I found is when I stop, when I cover the person, I give them air cover instead. Because I'm like, ah, if this pops off, I got it. Like, I, I. And I just let them know, like, hey, nothing to talk about here. I'm sure you've already gone through all the scenarios. I will give you air cover. Just, you know, take it easy. Have a good weekend, you know, Because I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to get your ass kicked when you've already kicked your ass. And now you're like, well, now I got nothing. Now I'm going to come in defeated instead of lifted, you know, And I think, I think that's what the impact of disconnected leaders is. You think that everyone deserves the same punch in the face when they don't. And they don't. People need different things. And it's important for you to know who needs what to get the result that you're trying to get. That's what came up for me.

Speaker C: I'm obsessed with that. That, that. That literally will be in my toolkit.

Speaker B: The world needed that.

Speaker C: I think so.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That. And that's something. Yeah, yeah. Cause that's what I need. I'm just talking about what I need.

Speaker B: I was about to say I feel like, you just made me understand why the moment I feel pressure from my team, I'm like, I want to run out the door right now. Like,

Speaker A: that's what I mean. It doesn't make like different pressures, different things. Right. Some, like, um, some of us need pressure to get the thing done. Cool. But like in most scenarios, we need less pressure, more. Hey, I want you to know that it's all good. Whatever happens, happens. We'll, we'll take care of it. Because at the end of the day, we're going to be fine again. We're not curing cancer, we're not in the icu. That's where that pressure should live. You know what I mean? That's where that pressure should live, you know? But interesting, interesting. Let's go into, uh, a little bit of ambition. What ambitions do you think you guys have, each of you, that is yours, versus what was like inherited.

Speaker C: Maybe you want to kick us off or.

Speaker B: You go first. I didn't think about this.

Speaker C: Yeah, so do I, but I'll start talking and see what happens. So my gut tells me I don't know, but what I can say is I think I owe, uh, and I'm only realizing this and aligning my, my professional development with it now. Like, uh, literally in the last two to three years. My natural inclination is to want to see, like to develop output. What I mean by that is that like, I like seeing a set of problems having a census of what, how we might, might do something and, and like, and like building something that like, serves as like the, the middle ground between how we get from A to B. Right. Whatever the problem is, that's, I'm speaking broadly because you can apply it to like, any kind of problem. I need to be able to be the person that takes those two points and, and, and, and, and does that. And I didn't always get a chance to do that in my career. And more importantly back to like, this idea of professionally developing, as I've developed, I've got further and further away from it. Right. I, I, I'm, it's less about getting into the nitty gritty of how we connect two things to solve a problem, and it's more about like, you know, making sure the people that are actually doing the connecting are, you know, working on the right things and, and generally speaking, that's the right thing to connect as opposed you could possibly go, go solve for. And so my, I don't know if this is an answer or not, but I think my natural ambition is to help bridge the gap where there aren't clear solutions and ways of getting things done. And I think because I've shown some proficiency in different places, I've. I've been put in situations or in roles or positions where I'm overseeing that work and not necessarily doing that work. So I. Again, I don't know if that's an answer. That's a Off the cuff. That's as close as I could get.

Speaker A: Yeah. I can reframe it for you, Kat, if you want. It's kind of like, if nobody saw your success, would you still want it?

Speaker B: Um, I think, yeah. So I think for a while, my dad is, like, very. About the public sector. He's like, go work for the public sector. Like, to this day, like, he probably said that last week to me, which I understand, because at one point, like, that was the thing to do them for their.

Speaker A: For our parents.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think for the longest time, I really wanted to have a type of success that was, like, impressive to my parents of, like, you know, go be a nurse or go do something that's in mathematics, you know, something of that nature. And I was just never that person. So I think, honestly, being in sales has been my form of ambition because it keeps me stimulated in a way that's exciting to me, even though in the back of my head I hear my parents being like, well, that is not promising. Like, you could lose your job any day. Those are the people who get laid off first, you know? And it's also allowed me to get creative in my meditation and breath work business. So, like, if nobody was to see my success, well, now I'm like, well, that would be annoying. But I think it's because maybe my ambition is proving everyone wrong and, like, doing it my way. So that would probably be the reason why I'm annoyed. No one saw it.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, I feel both of those answers deeply because, like, Richard, I'm like you, where I've always said, like, the higher you climb, the less you're involved with the people. And that's like my thing. Like, why would I want to keep going? And. And then, like. Like, I don't know. God always does these things where he puts, like, a person in your life that is at the next level and with the people and very engaged. And I'm like, oh, so you could do it different. Because we have this thing where the way we see it being done, we think that's the way we have to do it, when in reality, you can make it whatever you want. You know, there are levels to this as well. Like, you can't be, you know, the director and try to be in the truck at the same time. But you could be as close to the truck as you need to be to get that cup filled. Because that's how, that's what fills my cup. Right? And so I don't get, uh, too far removed from the people. Um, but it is interesting to see, like, because I feel like probably like you, Richard, where like you got into the workplace and people were like, hey, you're naturally good at this. You should just go to the next level. And you're like, all right, I'll go to the next level. And then they're like, you should just go to the next one now too. And you're like, okay, cool. And then before you know it, you're looking around and you're like, why am I here? Yes, why am I here? How did I get here? You know, it's an interesting question as to why. Why we want so much ambition. Some of the, um, best roles I've ever had was, you know, years and years ago before ambition came knocking. And I'm like, I wonder where this came from. I wonder what path, whose path. And this is. Like, when you don't know yourself, you'll just keep going down thinking, more money, more responsibility, better, more people think I'm important, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't give like, like truly now, I'm just like, I don't know if I care about that stuff anymore, but it's high paying. I don't know if I care about that anymore. I'm gonna be honest, man. I really care about my well being and like my state of mind and the impact that I'm making, positive impact that I'm making more than I care about a lot of other things, you know, which is probably why we all have passion projects. Because, I mean, think about it. Yeah, think about it. That means, like, you had capacity. If we break this down, we had capacity. We had something left in us to pour into an entire other business. And if corporate could just tap into that for people, if you could satisfy both.

Speaker C: Can I ask you a question, Rami?

Speaker B: Uh, or.

Speaker C: And Kat, if you know anybody, please share. Do you know a team or organization or company that's doing this? Well, I would, and I ask in that way because I assume that most aren't. But like, you know, uh, do you have an example of like, wow, like this company understands it. They gets it. They gets it. They get it, right? You, uh, know, because I can think of like, individual relationships with, like, a boss who's, like, able to, like, create this kind of environment and promote this kind of stuff.

Speaker B: But.

Speaker C: And maybe it doesn't belong as a responsibility to organizations. Right? Like, it's individuals, it's actually leadership styles that drive this kind of thing. But, yeah, the question being, do you know anybody? And if so, like, how did they get to that point?

Speaker A: So I'm a big fan of Gary Vee. Big fan. And at first he was very triggering because he was saying too much truth. But I literally just saw a post, I think it was yesterday, where he said that if somebody comes to him and they say, like, hey, Bob really lost it on Sally today, or Sally really lost it on Bob today. Like, his first instinct is to go to the person who had the explosion to apologize to them and then to ask them what is in the environment that may have caused you to have this sort of behavior explosion? Because he. And in, um, the. In the, in the text, it was on LinkedIn, he said, because he realizes that he's responsible for the entire atmosphere of what permeates in his walls. And I'm like, yo, listen to me right now. They don't dismiss it. They don't say, that's just Bob. They don't just say, well, we know how Bob is. No, this man goes direct, without fear, because there's no fear to be had there. Anyway. Apologizes, asks what he could do better, and then, of course, we're going to have the. We're going to have the conversation. But to come from that place. Yeah, I don't know. I can't tell you what's happening within his walls because I haven't been there. But I can tell you that I would love to be there there. I, uh, would love to be there because we just have to stop saying, like, oh, well, you know, that's just how he is. We know how he is. Uh, I'm sorry, that's unacceptable.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: You know, we can get really deep into it, but, like, when are we going to stop dismissing the bad behavior from family, from work, co workers, friends? When are we going to stop saying, well, that's just how they are? What? I doesn't work for me anymore. You know, and for our parents, a lot of the calls came from inside the house. You know, a lot of the misbehaviors of adults came from within the house. And yet you're preaching to us and teaching us how to keep the strangers out, but you're not protecting us from who already is here. And we're doing the same shit in corporate, where we're just like, that's just, you know, he groped her. Well, we know when he gets a little drunk. No, no, no, no. Somebody needs to stand up, you know, So I think Gary Vee may be doing it well. And you. I'm sure other companies are, but, Roma,

Speaker C: you asked Kat and I about our businesses last time. In what ways does leadership from the heart, um, and some of the work that you're doing. Right, like, aim to address this kind of thing. Right, like. And how. Right, like, you don't have to give me, like, the. The program, but overarching, like, you know, philosophy for how you, you know, address these things and start to, like, figure out how you're going to coach. Coach somebody.

Speaker A: Yeah. So when we work one on one or in cohorts with people, um, when we partner with, like, an organization, the first thing we do is, like, an assessment. And it's an assessment that tells me where your strengths are and where your opportunities are. Of course, because I think it's, do you know where you're going? Right. Are you good with the people? Do you own your stuff? And then, like, do you know how to operate at the next level? And that gives me enough data to start to see patterns within you. Because I believe in pattern recognition over almost everything right now. Because I think we're all just running patterns, right? Somebody says something to you, Richard, you get triggered automatically. You respond the way you usually respond. Right. And then we kind of just leave it right there. My question to you would be, so why do you think you responded that way? And you would say, well, because they. And then I would say, cool, I get what they did, but how does that make you feel inside? And then we would peel back the onion as to why you feel that way. Let's talk about a micromanager. A, uh, micromanager is just an insecure person. And so I can immediately have empathy for them because I'm like, my God, to function in that much insecurity must be terrifying. So I can already see you right now. Let's talk about why you're insecure. Well, because I just need to know everything. Do you really need to know everything? And then we can peel that back. What do you actually need to know to feel safe inside? Because that's all we're trying to do, is feel safe inside. So what do you actually need to do to feel safe inside? And I recently just did this with someone, and they were like. They're like, well, I just need to be Copied on everything. No, you don't. That's called micromanaging. What do you want to know? Well, I would love, like, an update. So how about we ask for an update? How frequently do you need an update? Well, once a week would be good. Beautiful. Let's put something on the calendar with so and so and get a weekly update. And they're like, wow, that's very freeing. And I'm like, no,

Speaker B: this is, uh. What you do is actually a Tibetan Buddhist practice. It's called an emptiness practice, where you, like, peel back like, okay, like, where is this really coming from? And you come to realize it's just a wound.

Speaker A: It's just a wound because one time you didn't know and they made you feel dumb. And so now you need to know everything. Or I wasn't ever included when I was a kid, and so now I want to be included, and I'll lash out if I'm not included or I need to be. Right? Like, let's just go all the way to. And this is where it's going, guys. This is where leadership is good. This is like performance coaches. This is what we're going to be talking about. Because, again, if automation and AI are doing the heavy lifting for us.

Speaker C: Yeah. What are we doing?

Speaker A: We have to be the ones to start peeling this back so we could show up as ourselves. Because we can't connect if I have a thousand layers in between me and you got a thousand layers in between you, you know? So in order for us to be regulated, we're gonna have to look at some shit. And I think the people who have been on the healing journey for a couple of years are probably a little ahead right now versus the people who've been putting it off. But in leadership from the heart, that's kind of the work we do. Like, I know you want to climb the ladder. I just had a call the other day. This guy's like, I want to be a VP or coo. And I'm like, okay, let's talk about that. He's talking about it. And he's like. I was like, what do you think is getting in your way? He's like, well, I've got these colleagues, and they're just not at my level. And I don't really want to address them because I have to beat it around. I was just like, is that the way a VP or CEO thinks? They just address it? And he's like, damn. And I'm like, like, they don't even understand the identity, the gap, you know, a Lot of us want that, but we're not acting like it. Because acting like it means I gotta go fix some things. You know, I gotta look at myself, I gotta see why I'm. I'm, um, I'm like this, you know, and that's again, I think that's where the future is. I think that's where, like all performance is going. Because imagine, like for a second, 50% more healed coworkers. How much work could we actually get done? We wouldn't even have to tap dance around each other to get the result. We would just say, this is what we need, and you'd go do it in collaboration and we would be done with it. But we have so much weight. The reason why we have to work 40 hours is because we have so much wasted time just trying to get to the answer to get the result, to do something. To do something. We need 10 meetings to get one thing done. That's just because we're dancing around all the egos.

Speaker B: My God, that's a whole other thing.

Speaker A: Meetings. Death by meetings.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's a meeting before the

Speaker A: meeting, the meeting, the end, the meeting after the meeting. Yeah.

Speaker C: And then the postmortem. And then.

Speaker A: Because God forbid we say what we're feeling inside of this room because, you know, so and so can't handle it or so and so can't take it. But yeah, yeah, that's kind of the work. That is the work that we do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, love that.

Speaker A: And it's just to help people, like, get back to them. Get back to them so we can really think about people when we're making decisions and, uh, just care a little bit more about yourself and about everybody else. About yourself first. Because that's what people don't think. They think that they're fine. And I'm like, okay, you know, so, yeah, if you're hiring, anything else, if

Speaker B: you're hiring, let us know.

Speaker A: I got you. It's growing. So we'll, we'll get there shortly. For sure. For sure. Do you guys have anything else? Anything to add, Anything to question? I love the way you guys just take over and ask questions, by the way.

Speaker C: I gotta stop myself.

Speaker A: No, don't. Don't stop yourself. Don't stop yourself at all.

Speaker C: I, I genuinely enjoy these conversations because I think, like, the topic that we really covered today, these things can just go kind of unspoken or, or, you know, you, you carry them like by yourself and you're like, you know, or you look at, especially nowadays, right? You look at people on Instagram or on LinkedIn. Right. And everybody's got their best projection of their career, of their life, or of their whatever. Sometimes we all. We don't always have, uh, you know, those things perfectly aligned. So it's good to have these conversations because I think one of the things that it does, uh, aside from, like, all the nuggets that I got from both of you here today, I think it just signals to people, like, hey, look, everybody's dealing with some version of this. Right? And it's all. There's. You use the word patterns, Romy. There are these patterns that we can so often find ourselves in, specifically when it comes to corporate or anything, relationships and stuff like that. So I appreciate these conversations genuinely. They. I think they mean a lot, both for me individually, but also I think what they signal to. To your audience.

Speaker B: Yes. I think similar to what you just said, babe, it's just like the thread of there is a world where we can all show up wholly. And I think that's the most exciting part, especially as these conversations continue to happen and it becomes to be the norm more often. So I just have a lot of hope and excitement.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I. I want to do a little cta, a little call to action on that, because I think that it's. I think it's closer than we think. And I think it just takes a little bit of courage from all of us to show up that way to give permission to the others. Somebody has to go first. Right. And I think it's us. And as scary as it is, it'll be equally as rewarding. And we know that. And so little by little, test the waters. Right? Test the waters. Some of us have to see it before we believe it. I get it. You know, I'm more of a, like, jump all in and then we'll same. But, you know, there are people that like, you know, and so. Yeah. Especially if you're a leader. If you're a leader, just let yourself be you and then watch everyone else be them. And it'll be the most freeing thing I think you'll ever discover. And I don't think you can go back from there, because once you're able to be you, even if it's 75, still better than whatever we were doing before, you know?

Speaker B: So great.

Speaker A: Thank you, guys. I always appreciate. I don't feel like it's the last one, so I'm not gonna say goodbye. Thank you, Romy.

Speaker C: It, uh, better not, people.

Speaker A: Yeah. All done. Uh, this was an hour so far, and I think we have more. We're just being respectful of everybody else's time. And, uh, you know, with that said, thank you guys for listening. Uh, that concludes this episode of Leadership from the Heart. And we'll catch you next week.

Speaker C: Thanks.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Wanna hear.