The Fastest Way to Destroy Innovation

Barry Moline: The problem with most teams isn't a lack of ideas. The problem is how fast leaders shut them down. Welcome to the Leadership Career Accelerator, where we help aspiring leaders like you build executive presence, influence with impact, and get recognized and promoted. I am longtime CEO Barry Moline. My mission is to help you grow as a leader, elevate your career, and improve your life. If you enjoy learning leadership tools, hit subscribe. In return, my promise is to keep bringing you ideas that make you a better leader. I have a question for you. What if the key to better meetings, stronger teams, and more creative problem solving was learning how to improvise at work? Most people think improv belongs on a comedy stage, but this episode shows how the same skills apply every day at work, especially when teams need to brainstorm, adapt, communicate, and solve problems together. John Colby explains how yes and the magic if and simple meeting shifts can help leaders create more trust, more participation and greater momentum. Instead of shutting ideas down too early, you're going to learn how to one, use improv principles to build trust and encourage more creative collaboration. Two, you'll understand how to apply practical tools like yes and and the magic if to unlock better ideas and solutions. And three, you'll learn how to make meetings more engaging by adding interaction, variety, reflection and space for different communication styles. Let's get into it. Well, welcome, John.

John Colby: Thanks. It's always a pleasure to talk with you, Barry.

Barry Moline: Hey, John, we're here talking about improvisation. And what is that? Uh, I'm not really sure what the word is. There's so many syllables. I don't think about it all the time. And I have to go like, look it up. But here you are. Explain that to me.

John Colby: I'm here. Yeah, improv, uh, for short, improv. So let's get rid of some of the syllables. It just means without preparation. So when you go through your daily life, you're improvising because you don't know what's going to happen when you go to the grocery store, um, you can see an improviser in jazz music where they will lay down a tempo and then different musicians get an opportunity to take an improvised solo with the trumpet or the trombone. But, um, for me specifically, it's improv comedy. So we, we go up on stage, like something like Whose Line is It Anyway? We take a suggestion from the audience and we make up a song or create a scene or a whole. I have a improv partner we named Dudesical. It's two dudes and we write a whole 30 to 45 minute musical based off of one suggestion.

Barry Moline: Wow. All right. So I think about improv as the being on stage part, and I guess the musical part, too. And those are things that scare me because, I don't know, I'm not real good at that. Or when I go see an improv show, I think those people are so fast. But when you say we do it all day long, that's the first time I've thought about improv as, like, yeah, I don't even know what my next sentence is going to be. So I guess I'm. I'm improvising throughout the day. When you say, you know, supermarket, or you see somebody and like, hey, how you doing? Or, I don't know, somebody drops a can of pickles on the floor and you go like, whoa, what do we need to do with that?

John Colby: Yeah, everything. It's. I like to say it's just act. Uh, and react is all improv is. When you, uh, say act, somebody makes a choice. Somebody creates some type of stimulus. So whether they say something, they do something, and then we react to it. And so if you and I were doing an improv scene, it's just like, if you and I were having lunch, I would say something and you would listen and it would inspire a response, and we would just react back and forth until the show is over. That's basically all it is.

Barry Moline: Okay, so we do this when we're brainstorming at work. I used to be in charge of hurricane restoration in Florida for a group of utilities. And in the moment when there was a hurricane, we just had to act. We just had to do things and fix things and so on, get people organized. But before we were in a hurricane, our team would get together and we would brainstorm and talk about all the crazy things that could happen in the next hurricane. What did we learn from the last hurricane and what could happen in the next hurricane? And it was all just one crazy idea after another. Just throw them out, put them on the table, and then we would imagine what we would do in that moment. So would that be categorized as improvising?

John Colby: Yeah, people. People all the time hear that. I'm going to improv rehearsal. And they're like, well, how do you rehearse? Because it's improv. And I'm like, what we're doing is considering the possibilities so that we can set ourselves up, uh, for success within the scene. So when you start learning improv, there are several books on improv, and. And they always give you the rules. Like, here are the rules of improv. But what's interesting is once you get good enough at the rules, you don't have to follow them anymore. But when you're new, what you do is you learn these rules to kind of give you some guidelines to tee you up, uh, to be more successful. So one of the big rules we say is don't ask questions. Because if we start a scene and the first thing I do is ask you a question, now all of a sudden, you expect yourself to have the right answer, and you don't know what I'm thinking. And so if I were just to say, what's that? Which is one of the worst improv starts you could have. Because, like, I don't know what you're pointing at, what it's supposed to be. If I say the wrong thing, I don't want to throw you off. So instead you say, look out for the bear. Now, I'm naming what it is I'm calling to the severity of the situation. And now it's easier for you to react to. Holy cow, there's a bear in the room. Right? So you learn these rules. It's just like being proactive at work. You make a plan, but let's be honest, nobody's ever made a plan that went exactly the way it was supposed to go. So improv allows you to be flexible and adaptable, even if you have a plan in place.

Barry Moline: Yeah, that's perfect. All right, so, uh, you help organizations be better in a variety of ways by using improv. And as we've already identified, improv is something that we're doing already all day long. You're just sort of. I don't want to say formalizing it, but raising it to the surface. This is something you're doing. Now let's actually use the thing that you're doing. One of the things you talk about is building more trust and creative teams. Uh, how do you do that?

John Colby: Okay, so let's give a generic example. We've all had the devil's advocate boss before, where you bring an idea, and immediately they start saying, but what about this? Well, hold on, what about that? And they start tearing it down. In improv, we say, you're tearing down the scene, right? So in improv, if I walk up and say, what if we were to try this? The improv phrase, and you've heard me say this before, is yes. And yes, if we were to do that, we could do this. And you build, like you said, build trust, build teams. It's literally building where we are working together to build something up. So one of the big things. Early on, when I'm working with any organization or even a, uh, married couple, is teaching people to start by reacting, by building instead of tearing down. And so you have people that feel like they're heard at work. They feel like their opinion matters. They feel like they're a part of a team instead of. The boss gets to tell us what to do. And we don't give our ideas, we just listen.

Barry Moline: So I think the reason why people say no, uh, and Chris Voss in his negotiation work actually wants his counterpart to say no. And that's because no means that you're in control in some way. And what Voss will do is say, is allow you to say no and then build on it in some other way. He likes to phrase questions in that way that start with a no and then tell me what you would like to do. So it actually is, no, I don't want to do that, but I do want to do this. I mean, it's just phrasing. The point is that I'm guessing that those micromanaging bosses are just want to demonstrate some level of control of the situation. And so when you say yes and is there a way to. I don't know. The first thing that comes to my mind is just a short phrase that says, huh, huh. Okay, let's build on that. And meaning I'm in control of this. In my response, at least, I'm in control of this. I'm going to go with you. You know, I'm. I'm saying I'm setting the scene, so to speak, in terms of helping you out as opposed to. I could say no. Like, nah, I don't know. I see too many problems in the ABC and D. However, if I'm going to go yes, and I mean, obviously we're talking about the workplace.

John Colby: Yeah.

Barry Moline: Is. Is making sure that people know that I'm with you. I'm with you. And I'm also exhibiting a level of control. Have you encountered that?

John Colby: Yeah, I mean, you're always going to have some either level of control or desire for control. I think that's natural because, um, when you're working in an industry for any amount of time, you gain experience. And so that experience says, I know what I'm doing, I'm going to drive the car. An improv. If one person is. We call it, literally, we call it driving the scene the whole time. I don't want to be in that scene because somebody else just telling me what to do and where to go all the time. I'm like, well, if you just want people to follow along, why don't you write a book? Or why don't you write a story or write a script? Like, if you want. If you want an improv. Like, the whole. The whole joy of improv is really just adults pretending together. And so if you. I mean, if we've all. Remember when you were a kid, we all had a bossy kid in our neighborhood that would always try. And if we don't play this way, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home. And, uh, so I'm like, man, I don't want to play if we have, like, anytime you. You change the rules or you don't get your way, you quit or you give up. Like, I want to. I want to be with a team that when something goes wrong, and that's another big rule in improv. If there's a mistake, we just say mistakes are an opportunity to learn. So when something goes wrong, I want to be around a team that goes, okay, what can we learn from it? Where can we grow from it? So you build this team that. That nobody is necessarily in charge all the time. Don't get me wrong. There's a boss, there's management that helps to, you know, track progress and stuff like that, but everybody is a team pitching in to make sure that we're successful and honestly, that we're having fun while we're doing it.

Barry Moline: So in this teamwork example, we're talking about how to bring folks together to build up on an idea, and it can go in a variety of directions as we're. Yes. Handing. And the goal is just to get people working together. I mean, my original question was, how do you create a better team from this? And the goal is everybody understands that one simple rule. Yes. And let's try to build on this original idea.

John Colby: Yeah, yeah. Everybody works together toward that idea. But what's interesting. And you said, obviously it can go in different directions. That's part of the fun, I think, man. Um, I wish I could think of a good example right now. There are so many famous examples of scientists or teams creating something, and they accidentally created something else. Right. So they were. They were working towards something like, oh, wait, this, like Avon, like, cosmetics had a product called Skin so Soft. And it was originally just supposed to be like, you know, something to keep your. Your skin smooth. Then they realized it was really good at getting bumper stickers off of cars. It was really good to keep mosquitoes away. It was really. So you start finding all these other things and. And that's what. Yes. And is like, we have a goal, but sometimes it's going to, we're going to learn something new along the way and it can be some really cool stuff. And when you have those breakthroughs, the team celebrates. Right. Because we, we allowed ourselves to go, okay, what if, what if it did this? Or what if we tried this? And, uh, it's getting so soft. In my childhood, at least, was used for everything.

Barry Moline: Funny, I just picked up my post it notes. Post it notes were created by a, uh, 3M scientist trying to create a new glue, and it wouldn't stick. Well, right.

John Colby: That's exactly what it. That's it. That's a perfect example.

Barry Moline: Yeah. Wow. Well, so we just did describe some examples. How can I use this with my team at work? I mean, not my particular team, but, uh, you know, you've been in workplace environments where you're working with a team and you've seen them do stuff. They're making widgets or products or services, whatever it might be. What are some examples that you've seen where teams have used this? I'm looking for something that's more concrete. Yes.

John Colby: I can give you a few. So, first of all, we're going to use the phrase the magic if. And this goes back to a Russian acting teacher named Constantine Stanislavski from over a hundred years ago. But he said acting before, you know, know, back in the 1700s or going all the way back to Shakespearean times, it was, it didn't seem real. It was like this over the top ridiculous thing. But Stanislavski is considered the father of modern acting because he said, no, think about it. If you were really that person saying those lines, under that, those circumstances, how would you really act? And that's the magic if. So how we use the magic if in the business world is when people feel stuck and they're not finding solutions. Well, let's go. Okay, hold on. If we had more money, how would we solve this problem? If we had, uh, a bigger team, if we could hire anybody, if we could get anything, how would we solve this? And what happens is people immediately find solutions. I, uh, joke around that if you have enough money, people think they can solve anything. Right. So I was working with a company on the east coast and they were having hiring issues for these, like, preschools. And, and one of the challenges is they were only paying 15 to $20 an hour, but they had a very high expectation for what they wanted these people to be able to do. And so during a brainstorming session, I said, okay, if you had all the money in the world, who would you hire? And they're like, well, we would get people who had a degree in early childhood education. Like, cool. So what's the problem? Like, well, they won't take 15 bucks an hour in New York or in Philadelphia or whatever. I'm like, okay, so here's where we get creative. This is what we want, but this is our realistic baseline. How do we meet in the middle? And here's what they came up with. Well, we can't hire the graduates, but could we get the college students that are juniors and seniors, that are going to be early education, you know, graduates? So what has since happened? This is a couple years ago. Several of these preschools have partnered with local universities to get those students who are sophomores, juniors, and seniors and said, what if they went to school three days a week and the other two days a week they worked and made money, but they were also getting their observation hours. So it ended up being a ah, win, win, both for the university and the company on a third win, and for the students, because now they're getting paid. When I student taught, I didn't get any money for it, right? So it's a win, win, win. Right? That's. That's how you say, let's go big and dream big. I helped an engineering company do the same magic if and solve an, uh, engineering problem that the CEO, after the day, told me, he's like, you just solved a $45 million problem. And I told him, I'm like, you're not paying me enough, first of all. But no, but really what I said is, I'm like, I didn't solve anything. I just got them out of their own way because they were so caught up in what can't happen, caught up in the obstacles. And I'm like, no, let's look at solutions. And literally with that group, I said, hey, don't worry about the cost, don't worry about the manpower, and don't worry about gravity. Because they were so worried about how they would move this. I'm like, don't worry about gravity. What would you do if you didn't have gravity? Like, well, we could build it off site and float it in.

Barry Moline: Wait, you mean gravity? Like, like on Earth versus actual space?

John Colby: Yeah, like the.

Barry Moline: Okay, not like, serious.

John Colby: And gravity holds things down. And they're like, well, you could build it off site. And they started talking, well, then could we. Could we build part of it off to the side and use additional cranes to pick it up and Move it over the highway. And they did. They found in a couple of hours they solved this big problem they'd been working on for months and they found a solution. And again it's, it's seeing possibility instead of seeing the obstacle.

Barry Moline: Yeah, that's really amazing. I had a problem at work a few years ago where I think that the, that my senior staff had been meeting secretly and they were all talking about the need for more staff support. We all need assistance. And, and it was definitely plural. We need more people to help us with this variety of tasks. And I just, they weren't coming at me all at once. They were coming at me with, you know, in little, uh, just little comments here and there, small meetings, you know, I sure could use somebody here. And they were all doing it. So we had a, uh, staff meeting and I said, I've been hearing this a lot. So I don't know exactly how to create a person or a variety of people to do this. But what if we had unlimited money? I use that technique. And uh, I don't know why, but what if we had unlimited money? Let's just make a list of all the things that you want your assistant to do. And we made a list, just a big long list. And it turned out that all the things that needed to get done were actually small and could be done by a part time person. So I said, let's hire a part time person and they can work for everybody. And people couldn't argue with me because they all thought they wanted a separate full time person for themselves. But it was very clear after we made a good detailed list that, oh yeah, that doesn't take that much time. It just takes me a lot of time because it pulls me away from other important things. And they were sort of equating the important thing with the thing that someone else needed to do. Anyway, the point is, hold, um on

John Colby: before we move on. Shout out to you for being. Yes. And you were hearing them. And instead of saying you don't need somebody, it's not that big of a deal. What are you doing with all your time? You could be getting it done if you, if you just cut that. It didn't take that long. But instead you said, what I'm hearing is let's look at it. And that's again, that's yes. And, and so let's brainstorm. No, no restrictions, no obstacles. And so that's the perfect example of making your people feel heard through. Yes. And so here we go. Gold star for you. Good work.

Barry Moline: Well, I will Say that I was a little nervous when I brought people into the activity. I didn't prepare them. I just said, I've been hearing this from a variety of people. It was a regular staff meeting. And then, uh, I said, we have, you know, we have time available today. Let's talk about this, and let's just let it flow. And as, as a result, like, I thought the. It was going to cost me, you know, $500,000 instead of $30,000, you know what I mean? But. But still, uh, I just wasn't sure where it was going to go. So, uh, fortunately, the, the tasks that people were really concerned about were small and doable by an assistant.

John Colby: Yeah. So if you, if you were on stage, I get. I bet the same thing. As much as I know you, I bet the same thing would happen. You said you'd be nervous about getting on stage, but then you'd find at the end you're like, you know what? Yeah, I just listened, I reacted, and it ended up working out. So it's the same thing. Because you were nervous at what you didn't know, you couldn't script it, you couldn't know how it was going to turn out. But again, that's. That's how a lot of improv is, right? There's. There's a little trepidation going in, but the results are usually worth it.

Barry Moline: Yeah. And at work, we often have an example for, you know, for whatever it is we're talking about in a meeting. We're brainstorming in a meeting. And, and there clearly are techniques that allow us time to think. Uh, you know, when we think about improv or on stage improv, there's a very, you know, there's a quickness to it, and maybe that's something that limits people, or know, gives them trepidation. When we talk about improv in the workplace, I think it may be incumbent on a leader to say, you know, take some time to think for a minute.

John Colby: Yeah.

Barry Moline: And then we'll go around the room and of course, you know, it's traditional brainstorming technique, but, you know, one person, one idea, and we'll keep going until the ideas are exhausted. It allows people the opportunity to listen to others. And if they were going to say that idea, they can scratch it off their list, but they might have had two or three other things on their list. No one dominates the conversation. And even in the process, as other people are talking, it still gives you a chance to collect your thoughts, think on that for a little while, and maybe even add an idea as well. So. So there are ways to do it that are maybe in a more, I m hate to say controlled environment, but at least, uh, there's a little more time to breathe.

John Colby: It's relaxed environment, right? Yeah, but what's, what's interesting is I know several improv teachers around the country. Uh, there's one named Jimmy Karain who teaches improv in Chicago, and he literally has probably a six or eight week class called the Art of Slow Comedy. And, uh, so often when I work with young improvisers, and when I say young, I mean young to improv, not young to life. Because, you know, people can come to improv at any age. One of the first things I think I try and teach people is to slow down. People try and go fast because when you watch it, you feel like it's fast. But when you're on stage and you're used to it, I mean, you know, from like, for playing hockey, when you first get on, like, it's frantic. But as you get used to it, like, the pace slows down, right? It's just like you feel more in control. So it slows down. So from the audience it feels like it's going fast.

Barry Moline: And.

John Colby: But to a seasoned, uh, performer, it just feels like the rhythm of life. And the rhythm of life has pauses. And, and I try and explain to people when they're nervous. I'm like, but I'm not saying anything. It's quiet. I'm like, think about it. When you watch the Oscars and they show all those clips, those clips aren't just people talking the whole time. Those clips of somebody going, where have you been? There's like this long, quiet pause. It's like, you know, where I. But that pause is what draws you in and, and those pauses what allow you to think as a performer. But those pauses are what we say allow the audience to catch up. And so when you go too fast, the audience doesn't get a chance to laugh, they don't get a chance to think, they don't get a chance to connect. And those are the same things you want in business. We want people to think, we want people to connect, and we want people to even laugh because it means we're having fun and we're happy. And positive psychology says we're better at work when we're happy. So allowing things to breathe helps us on stage and in business.

Barry Moline: Yeah, that's really important and good for people to know that it's not just about quickness. So running meetings, is there a way to use improv that makes our meetings better. I mean specifically to meetings. Is that something that you talk about?

John Colby: That's funny. You ask Barry. My newest, my newest keynote is literally called your meetings suck. And it's a one hour, it's, it's a one hour keynote, basically showing why they suck, giving you the science behind how you can make them better, and actually teaching you the whole format. Uh, but we don't have a whole hour right now. But let me give you the most important parts. The most important part is we try and talk too much in a meeting. Who the leaders. Think of a meeting as an information dump. Most meetings, one or two people talk and the majority people just listen. Um, but I won't get into all the stats, but let me give this very important stat. A child's ability to sit and listen is about one minute for every year they are old. So my five year old could listen for about five minutes and you'd lose her attention. Five minutes max. My seven year old gets seven minutes. If you have a 15 year old, they get 15 minutes. The attention span stops growing at 18. So whether you're 18 or you're 65, your attention span is 18. That's why the longest TED talk is 18 minutes. It uses that neuroscience. So my question to people always starting off is, are you ever running a meeting where some people are sitting quietly for more than 18 minutes and like. Well, yeah, but that's why I ask for questions. I'm like, here's the thing, not everybody's going to ask a question. And so the people that ask a question, technically their brains do doing a little bit of a reset because they got to engage and now they can listen again. But what I teach people is every 15 to 18 minutes or so add in something interactive. And interactive could be you get to turn and talk to somebody else. I can put you in a breakout room where you could talk in small group. I'm going to give you a chance to journal about it. I'm going to give you a chance to open your laptop and put it into practice and see what questions you have. I let people, every 15 to 18 minutes do something that allows that long term or that information to start sinking into the long term memory instead of just, instead of sitting on the surface and then blowing away. So not only do I retain information more, I feel more connected to the people that I'm with because I'm engaging in the meetings.

Barry Moline: Wow, that is a, uh, so that's one great technique. So in meetings, but, but overall is there A structure to meetings that we should be focused on. Okay, so I get the interaction part, and that's huge. That should change everybody's meetings, uh, immediately. And even if it's in a small way, you're just breaking the flow and getting people to use their brain in some other way. So I get the, you know, that part every 15, 18 minutes. How else can leaders, you know, run a meeting so that they. Well, what did you say? So that they don't suck.

John Colby: So they don't suck. That's the goal. We're trying to make them not suck. Well, okay, so you want something else. So another thing that it's important to remember is repetition is easy, but repetition creates habits. And let me explain what I mean by that. When you had a normal job, you would drive to work every day, right? And you would take the same path every day. And so after a few weeks of doing it, you didn't even really think about the drive anymore. Your brain thought about other things. I guarantee you there were days where you would get in your car on, like, the weekend to drive somewhere else, and you would accidentally start driving to work, Right? Because your brain goes into autopilot. Well, too many people have a format for their meetings at work. And so when I sit down as an employee, I'm like, okay, here's the drive to work. It's the same format every time my brain starts shutting down. So another big part you're asking, is there a format we can follow? No. I can give you ideas on things you can do, but once you've done that format for a little while, you got to mix it up again. And so I even work. Are you familiar with eos? EOS implementers? No. So EOS is a. Is basically a process that a lot of businesses, small and medium businesses, use to kind of standardize a lot of things. And, uh, it's a employee operating system. I think that's what it means. Well, they have a meeting format, and it's very good. I actually work with some companies ongoing that use eos. But what I do is try and teach them ways to take the EOS meeting form map and move it around and flip it and change it up. Because once they get used to it, like anybody that's listening, I'm sure, uh, you have a lot of leaders who are familiar with eos. If you've done it for a while, you find the value in it. But then the word that keeps coming up is stale. It feels stale because you're doing the same thing. So even when you have something that works. Don't get comfortable with it, don't get complacent. Keep challenging yourself to add new elements. And instead of just turning and talking to somebody, instead, what I want you to do is we kind of talked about the pros and cons of this. I want you to spend five minutes with a partner, decide who's pro and who's con. These don't have to be your real opinions, but I want you to have a five minute debate with your partner about it. And so you're finding these little ways to gamify things. So I do something where I tell everybody to wear a hat. And so like, okay, so I want you all to have a conversation with your partner, but I want you like, you know that one person in this meeting who always has something to say, like, and if I'm close enough with them, I'll say like, we know it's Todd, right? Todd always has input. I'm not hating on Todd because I love Todd's energy, but Todd always has something to say. And then there's also somebody in the meeting, uh, Rebecca, right? Rebecca usually only speaks up like once in the whole meeting, but she says something really insightful. Right, so what I want you all to do right now is, uh, as we go through this next 10 minutes of material, I want you all to put your Todd hat on. I want you to shout out any, any thought that you have in your head that might be relevant, raise your hand, interrupt me and share it out. So now we're all like super engaged now for this next section. We're all putting on our Rebecca hats. So no comments, no debates. But I want, if you need to, you can take a couple notes and then afterwards we'll have a few seconds of silence. And then I'm gonna have you turn to your partner and share your most insightful thing on that. So what you're doing is you're getting people to pay attention, but in a new way, which again, uses the brain in a different way. So we're just constantly finding ways to innovate to, like I said, flip it on its head so that we don't get bored.

Barry Moline: So, okay, just to recap there, those are three great techniques. One was, we're talking about this idea, break off into twos or threes and debate the pros and the cons. And then we report out. And then what you find, if you've got a meeting of, well, who knows, anywhere from five to 25 people, you're going to have a lot of ideas. Suddenly thrown out on the table. And then you said basically the, the Todd technique I think was the blurting out technique. Just keep blurting out ideas, just whatever comes into your brain. Hold on.

John Colby: And, and sometimes Todd's not giving good ideas. Sometimes he's like poo pooing ideas. So tell me what you don't like hope, you know, punch holes in these theories. Like again, just share it out and get, and you just create this fun energy and like people will even try and like copy his voice or whatever, you know. And so it's, it's playful but it really is getting to the heart of the matter that's at hand at the moment.

Barry Moline: And the Rebecca hat was we're going to think and then think of the most insightful thing that we can. And I can see how you definitely would be using uh, different parts of your brain because I don't know with Todd, obviously no filter. And with Rebecca you're trying to ingest as much information as possible and really think through it. And in my mind as I'm, as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking in analogies. What is this like? It's gotta be like something else. And you know, so, so what lesson does that teach us? Yeah, those are three great techniques. Wow, I love those. So learning from mistakes, this is, we're, we're constantly, you, uh, know, trying things, we respond. They don't always go well. I know that when I worked at a trade association we would hold events all the time and it would be kind of magical if nothing went wrong. And that rarely happened. There are always things that went wrong, things that we didn't anticipate and sometimes we handle them well and sometimes we didn't. And after every meeting in a three day meeting, there's going to be a lot of things that go wrong. We would always have a post mortal, you know, what happened, what do we learn from, from it and what can we do better? Is that what you talk about or a process when you talk about learning from mistakes? Or is there something else that you do?

John Colby: Yeah, I think, I think you're, you're hitting it on the head. I just want to make sure we're starting with the positive.

Barry Moline: What went right? Is that it?

John Colby: What went right first? And, and uh, we need to wire our brains to do that. And a lot of us, I mean somebody our age or older, older, they weren't wired that way. I guarantee it. Because the scenario I always pitch is when you were a kid and you brought home your report card, let's Say your report card had five A's and one C. What's the first thing your parents said to you? Now, what did you say to your kids? Or what do you say to your kids? And luckily, the current generation is more likely to celebrate those A's first. But. But a lot of us were raised with, I brought home five A's. And the first thing you did was what happened with the C? Right. Now, let's think about somebody on your team brings you a proposal they're about to send to the client. Well, do we look over the proposal and point out the great things first, or do we immediately start picking it apart? And so often. And even. I hired two new interns and we had our first meeting last week, and one of them showed me something she was about to put post on social media and she had spent a good amount of time putting together. It was very cool. And the first thing I said was, hey, can you add a caption? I'm like, oh, no, it's too late. And so I finished that sentence and I said, I'm sorry, let me say this. This is awesome. I love this and this. I love how you did this. And how did you come up with that? And then she started talking about it. And then she said, now we could, uh, mention the caption thing, but also mentioned, she goes, and it's, if you want, I could do this. And if you want a logo at the end, she already had some other things that she was unsure of. But before we even got into that, I picked it apart. And so part of that no mistakes mentality is when things go right, I can still tell you things that could be better. But when things go wrong, I could still point out some things that went right. And I need to become the boss that acknowledges the things that went right as well as those. And then when it comes to the, to the negative stuff, I will ask, where could we improve? And even if you brought me a project, we'll look it over. And I'm like, hey, I like this stuff. Uh, do you have any ideas where we might be able to improve it? And so then I'm not even nitpicking you yet. I'm letting you have a chance to. And so often they will bring up ideas and stuff like that. So it's a, it's a collaborative thing. Even with something as big as, like an employee review, you, I don't have an employee sit down and start going through. Here's where you need to improve. Ahead of that interview, you give them a questionnaire. Saying, give me three areas you're doing well, three areas where you want to improve and then give me some things that you're going to do to make those improvements. So before we've even had the meeting, they've thought through what are, what's my value to the company, where can I get better and how am I going to do it? So the review, I'm not talking, I'm like, guide me through it. And I might say, now, does that have anything to do with this as well? Because maybe that's one area where I want to see them improve. Like, yeah, I think. And they'll kind of, you know, again, we're working together, but they're driving the car and I'm along with them on the ride, given their navigation to help them stay on the road, but they're in charge of it. That's, that's. Yes. And as a boss, like, I'm the boss by title. The. But like, this is a collaborative effort to get the most out of both of us.

Barry Moline: Yeah, that's a great example. Is there a, uh, generational element to some of this? I mean, can old dogs learn new tricks or. I mean, that's one question, but I think the other question is, are younger people better at being more open minded? So kind of two parts there.

John Colby: I mean, I don't want to completely stereotype because I know some, you know, old dogs that are challenging me to come up with even better tricks. And then I also know some young people who are just as blinders on focus and don't want to deviate. So I think there's a little bit of both. But I do think there's a, uh, shift, I think, starting with Millennials, because, you know, I'm right on the cusp. Um, I'm called a Zennial. I'm right between Gen X and Millennial. And I think the younger generations are more comfortable with the collaborative process and they want to have a voice and they want to work together on things. Where older generations are more like, well, the boss says what to do and we do it. The parents say it and we follow it. However, the younger generations, when they talk about this teamwork, working together through things, they will often prefer to do those things digitally.

Barry Moline: So.

John Colby: So, uh, let's get on a zoom call and do it. Or why don't we use one of those, like Asana. There's these, like, different projects where people can all put the parts they're doing on this app. And so we don't even need to talk. You can just Check asana and see what I've done and uh, you'll see when my tasks are complete and then you finish that. And then they'll send each other a slack message saying, or you know, hey, don't forget to finish these things. So I can do that. I'm like, why don't we just hop on a call as a team team and talk about it. And, and the older generations are more, let's, let's sit down and talk about it. And so there are times where there's definitely a benefit to sitting down, but there are also times where I'm like, man, we don't need a meeting for everything, right? So it's, it's this constant balancing act between the generations and kind of finding out where can we do our best work and what can we do to make sure we're supporting people. So if I'm working with a multi generational team, I just ask point blank what helps you best to do your part of the job? Right. And so as long as we figure out what people need, you know, it doesn't really matter what generation they're in, it just matters what they need to be successful.

Barry Moline: Yeah, that's uh, really good. Most important there is just asking people how they like to communicate is ultimately the best. I had not thought about the long arc of communication techniques as seen through the prism of generations. When you were talking about it, I thought, you know, going back to the turn of the last century, everything was definitely filtered down from the rich owner boss down to the worker bees. And it was just, that's the policy and that's the way we're doing it. And you can see an evolution over the 20th century, uh, as technology picks up and greater autonomy builds among employees to today when there's so much opportunity to be autonomous. And by autonomous I don't mean work alone. It's just there's so many ways to communicate and now we just have a lot of options. That the top down approach is not a habit that's ingrained in younger people because now, you know, you can start a business sitting right here at your computer and you can just ask ChatGPT what would be a successful business today and then just go do it. Yeah. Whereas in the past, I mean, you can make a full length movie, you could write music, all using, you know, AI and those concepts were just completely out of reach. I'm not saying that they're great or that's the way we need to go, it's just that the concept in general just didn't exist. So therefore, any offshooting, any entrepreneurial activity was never part of the thought process. So anyway, uh, technology has shifted, and therefore it changes the way our brains think about, uh, how to use it and the limits that we have or the lack of limits.

John Colby: Yeah, I was just thinking about the transition of the way we did things. For example, in music back in the, you know, the 30s and 40s, when they'd have radio shows, they would have a full orchestra there to play the music, you know, and record it. Then we moved on to where, well, you can actually record your part in a studio, and then they can, you know, you don't have to be there all the same time. They can put it together. Well, then, uh, specifically, I'm thinking there's a band. I don't know if you've ever heard of Postal Service. There's a band, and they have a really good song. I'll text you one of my favorite songs after we're done with this. But Postal Service named their band Postal Service because it was two people on the opposite coasts, and they would record stuff and mail it back and forth to each other. And that's how they created it. Now it got, uh. It's to the point where people can create MP3s and send it to each other. And now there's, like, somebody like Owl City. There's Al City. I send you one of his songs, too. Al City is just one guy that created it all in his basement. And it plays all these, like, technical, you know, digital instruments, and it's all done in his basement. So we've gone from, you need a full orchestra in the studio at CBS in New York City to one guy alone in a basement. Right. So, yeah, that's kind of where we've gone.

Barry Moline: And it just opens up your mind to lots of different ways to do things. Well, John, this has really been a, uh, great conversation. I've gotten so many ideas, and I'm eager to share this with the world.

John Colby: Yeah, I was afraid this would happen. You and I, whenever we get together, we talk a lot. So I'm like, we could go on and on if we had time.

Barry Moline: Yeah. All right. Well, good. This is perfect that we'll have a great summary for people, and I think that folks are going to learn a lot from this episode.

John Colby: Thanks so much.

Barry Moline: I appreciate you.

John Colby: You too.

Barry Moline: Wrapping up. What's the one thing you can implement today? One important takeaway I learned is improv isn't about being funny or fast. It's about learning how to respond better in the moment that applies directly to leadership. A great team doesn't just execute a plan. It listens, reacts, adjusts and builds on what others bring forward. The key idea from the conversation is yes. And instead of immediately tearing down an idea, leaders can create more trust by saying, in effect, let's build on that. That makes people feel heard and it opens the door to better solutions. The best practical move is when your team is stuck. Use the magic. If ask what if we had more money? What if we had more people? What if we didn't have that constraint? That doesn't mean the constraint disappears. It helps people stop defending the limits and start seeing possibilities. Bottom line, better leadership often starts by replacing no because with yes and what else could be possible? If you're tired of managing drama, chasing accountability and carrying the weight of a low energy team, it's time for a better way. I help leaders and organizations build stronger teams, healthier cultures and real momentum. Together we'll identify where your current structure is falling short and what it will take to move from a stagnant, conflict filled environment to a high performing, purpose driven organization. I speak and train frequently on, uh, leadership, teamwork and culture, influence and persuasion and AI in the future of work. Now is the time for action. Click on the link in the show notes, schedule a call and let's explore how to move you forward. I'm Barry Moline. See you soon.