31. Cut From the Same Cloth: What Luxury Boards Keep Getting Wrong About Cross-Border Strategy - with Anne Line Hansen

Speaker A: An executive search and leadership advisory firm. I'm also the co founder of the Council, a private network for senior executives. And this is Leaders In Motion. My guest today, Anit Hansen, started as uh, Ralph Lauren, moved to channel and as executive Retail Director for Europe, then Managing Director Armani, then Global Managing Director Roger Vivier. In 2009 she found LAH Advisory and has spent the years since then advising the C suites and brands she used to run. Eileen, welcome to Leaders in Motion.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Kevin Alin so like we do with all our guests, we usually ask them to introduce themselves mainly from a career perspective. So you have professionally sort of two lives, one in the corporate world and now with your advisory, maybe you can tell me more about that and introduce yourself.

Speaker B: Absolutely. For sure. You know I probably always round up my, my let's say operational career before moving into advisory through three steps since I started out my career in lottery in the lottery sector where I spent five years with Valentino in, in a um, in a combined retail and buying position before moving into Ralph Lauren and later on into general management before Giorgio Armani, Chanel and then Giorgio Armani. And the last position in corporate was uh, global Managing Director for Roger Vivier, the French uh, luxury brand. So that's pretty much the larger uh, uh span of my trajectory in corporate and that is what led me to move into the other side of uh, of strategy consulting, so into an advisory position. And I suspect if that was the question, I suspect that we are uh, different at ALH Advisory because essentially we combine aspects of setting a strategic vision combined with creative branding to present implementable and actionable roadmaps for our clients.

Speaker A: Maybe you can tell me more about how this operating experience helped you in your advisory today.

Speaker B: My operational career helps a lot with when you are on the general manager, uh, when you are on the advisory side in strategy consulting because your advice becomes realistic and pragmatic. I put myself in the shoes of anyone who is responsible for delivering results, you know, and essentially a P and L. Sometimes I sort of cruelly say that I'm not necessarily keen to provide strategic advice unless it is something that can turn into tangible results. Right. I think what drove me from being, call it an insider to an advisor is my passion of creating strong brands, elevating positions and value creation. You know, you probably have a strong brand if it looks and feels as a strong brand and if your craftsmanship and your uh, manufacturing capabilities reflect those values. When you work for large corporates it's in a way what I call real Life universities because you may acquire a lot of academic knowledge when you go through your education process. So um, is about again delivering impact and results. That is definitely most of the aspects that our clients are looking for. Also some clients, big clients that belong to let's say groups or independent brands, they're struggling with another aspect Kevin often of knowing who their clients are because you can only build efficient engagement processes through let's say you interact with your end consumer and how your, your product assortment and your pricing structure is once you actually know your clients. Right. So data management becomes the knowledge base for a lot of clients when it comes to winning our core clientele or client compositions. So I would say that's a big ask these days.

Speaker A: You mentioned about tangible impacts and uh, do you feel that today, because you might have seen that evolution today, that companies are really looking into an immediate result when especially uh comes to consulting services now and this is something that they care more than they used to and if so how do you deliver upon that demand and expectation?

Speaker B: I mean it's definitely something we observed the whole time as I started out by saying, I mean our clients are largely speaking interested in two things. Creating a long term vision, the long lens and future. Proving your operations, your activities whilst ensuring that there is a short lens and delivery process that is focused on tangible deliveries, ROIs and uh performance. How you boost performance, it can be regionally, it can be in certain product categories. So we'll try and fine tune every time we provide advice and actions according to specific client needs. In other words we never or rarely ever will sell off the shelf advice. We would be very specific and bespoke and we will probably spend uh a long time immersing ourselves into. Why. Um, I'm just taking the example of a certain product category, not necessarily performing or it can be areas of why for example a uh, retail staff is not able to upsell and cross sell. Oftentimes that is related to training and how much a given brand actually expend to empower their sales associates because they are essentially advisors. So depending on the case there is not one answer that fits all because we work in a very bespoke manner. But how do we ensure that that brands are uh, achieving the ROIs that they're expecting? We work very closely with them and we do a lot in terms of workshops we animate with the team, with the teams that will be responsible for for example retail teams, marketing teams in order for the entire process to be agile in terms of delivery. Because oftentimes what we still today See, irrespective of innovation and tech and AI, we see sadly how siloed companies still are. And it's breaking down the barriers to a certain extent that sometimes we feel that we are doing in terms of working across the board, across divisions in order to, to deliver results. Because you will need a marketing strategy. You'll need to understand how they boost systems, how they boost sales, and how actual, you know, retail teams are using those and how they're used in an omnichannel perspective because digital and physical are becoming one of the same aspects in terms of deliveries. There are so many cases I could think of because, you know, are we talking beauty, are we talking fine jewelry, are we talking fashion? People come, as I said earlier to us with very different cases. One, one case could be, you know, a fashion brand. I prefer to stay neutral for the respect of our clients. A fashion brand that was going global, that was American, that still is. They did not necessarily have the right understanding in of different regions on how you go global. Right. So you can't use the same go to market strategy for coming from the US into Europe as you can for Asia. I could add into, into the equation as well for the Middle East. But let's just take the example which was the first ask was to develop, you know, a very specific growth strategy to uh, how to expand into Europe and into the Middle East. We look always, Kevin, at the semiotic aspects, which is something that is extremely important because no, those, those are the mirror or the reflection of different cultures, symbols and signs. Then we would do a sound market analysis of how, you know, customer preferences, low market and dynamics, company capabilities, competition collaborators and so on to get a sort of market reality check. If there are, uh, companies that have male or female product, and in the case of the American brand, there was only female products, but there was a lot of product merchandising to take into a place. And there was a lot of, let's say, probably target shift in terms of customer profiling. So how do you, how do you reach a new local customer base and are your strategies resonating? And then we kind of after that look at uh, the marketing mix, you know, kind of what are we selling, what, where are we selling, depending on the channel mix and the distribution. And then we go very strongly into the last aspect of clientele ing and customer acquisition or customer recruiting to again reflect the cultural curation aspect and build awareness, you know, execute the image and branding side of things. And that will in turn, you know, kind of come up with a set of Engagement processes of how you win over new clients. But really what value creating and growth strategy uh, are based on is three stages. Right? One is reach your key customer acquisition drivers and then convert performance through conversion and then how to retain because that's really where you enter the equation of customer lifetime value drivers. So in the case of this American brand, we set up that whole ramification, but we also had to look at pricing because some of their product categories were not, let's say, positioned in a way that they would gain performance in Europe or in Asia. So there are many things that we had to fine tune with them in order to enter the last aspect of the customer lifetime creation aspect. Right. Because that's really where everyone is looking to today, let's say is how you create customer lifetime value drivers. But another big question is how do you retain your clients? That's another recurrent client question we get from our clients. Because a client globally today is probably less brand loyal compared to say 15 years ago. If you were uh, a hardcore Chanel client, a hardcore Dior client, you may stay with the given brand. Whereas today both the younger demographics and the uh, Gen Xs and what have you, they are uh, by and large less brand loyal. So I don't know if that answers your question. So it varies a lot. I would say, you know, your investment, your actual investment as to external strategy advisors, the real metrics, and the real metrics of measuring success is more a case of okay, what are we not doing today and how well could we do? I think that's, that's probably the biggest question that most brands ask themselves. So it's, it's, it's kind of how you come up with adequate and uh, and, and, and you know, result based roadmaps that will lead to an ROI increase. Right. So if you are taking, saying whatever in a, in travel retailer, for example, if you are taking, if you have a strong business but uh, you know, you could do a lot better, well then your iris will be measured and by region typically. So it's very different. The channels are also very uh, a part of the big variables because you've got department stores in case of beauty that are a uh, large revenue stream. You've got travel retail, you've, in some cases you've got you know, own retail. So they are comparable. So there are different, different metrics to each of the channels.

Speaker A: That's. Well, I could not have asked for uh, a better, more complete answer. However, allow me to rewind a little bit back and if you could also introduce yourself More on a more personal level. I mean, you have quite a very unique journey. You are now you have worked in, in France, you're, you're, you're from, you're Denmark. And uh, you work, you speak different languages and you work with different cultures and countries. So it is, uh, quite unique and interesting. Maybe you can guide us through this interesting journey.

Speaker B: Of course, I mean, yes, I'm Danish, no denying it. And I have studied in the uk, but prior to that, when I was younger, I actually went to France where I did something about improving my French. So that's about now, 40 years ago. And that sort of led me back into France after, uh, completing my master's degree in communications and marketing in London. Back to France. Right, back to France. Where I almost by chance, after a brief career in contemporary art in London, moved into the fashion industry where my first job was at Valentino. So yes, you're right, maybe pointing out that I am, um, not French, although I've lived in France most of my life. But oddly enough, I've always worked globally. So I'm one of these people. When you come from a small country, I suspect that you learn a bunch of languages to begin with. So, you know, they are somewhat obsolete in the sense that they're all European. My dream would have been to speak Chinese, Japanese and other languages that are not European. But hey, you know, you get far by speaking English. But again, languages. Kevin, you're right, perhaps insisting on that notion because languages do open doors. Because I've always found that being a, uh, foreigner in whichever country I've lived in, you know, you become more adaptable and you become a natural listener and a natural, call it flexible and agile person. Because you need to adapt into something that you've not perhaps been raised in. And I think that's one of the things that have always stayed with me. Um, you know, also my, perhaps my natural curiosity, some people call it generosity as well, because probably I'm quite a, you know, I'm a natural networker, uh, is what people tell me. But again, that is almost the extension of being able to, let's say, be able to read the room, as I call it, because you pick up differences. And sometimes when people are non verbal, they can actually convey a lot. When you are in negotiations in Japan, in China, in the Middle east, sometimes the non verbal communication can be as impactful as the verbal communication has. But I've also worked for different types of employers, ranging from Americans, Italian, a lot of Italian, Italians, French. Um, so that also again, gives you perhaps the obligation having to adapt into different cultures. But all those global brands have a global audience. So you need to adapt being part of a delivery team to where the preferences, cultural customs. And at ALH Advisory, my advisory practice, we look an awful lot on the semiotics which to a certain extent captures the cultural vibe of uh, any business because any business will have an NDA which is you know, part of that uh, visual language so to speak. And that can also convey powerful things to different cultures. So I think you know we at ALH Advisory we are all about delivering impactful solutions for our clients. And that naturally means being one step ahead in a, in a sort of mode of being one step ahead in terms of information because again I come from an operational background so I always guide my clients to obtain results that are tangible and actionable. Because a lot of what we do today is in a cross border perspective is very related to performance, you know, increasing profitability, in some cases ROIs. But we tend to take the creative branding aspect um, uh, you know, on board as early in the process as possible because we find that that delivers a more agile solution based roadmap.

Speaker A: Well I could listen and listen to you for a long time without interrupting. When it comes especially to cross border and culture differences. I like when you say that also the non verbal is, is, is a, is is a message in itself which we call like the silence is a form of communication too. And I'd be curious now to also like deep dive a little bit more about on the topic of cross cultural or cross border business and strategy, what you led when you were working in house and uh, in terms of brands, what were the, the ambitions and the challenges that you face when it comes to cross border expansion? I don't know, it could be working with local teams or uh, influencing or bringing your peers in the headquarter to uh, go with your ambitions and deliver results. Or now more on the advisory side, how do you actually influence, educate, bring your clients to success in uh, different markets? What were the challenges then? What are the challenges now? And I'm sure it's also related to where the trends in the global markets has evolved along the way as well.

Speaker B: M. Well for sure the market has changed drastically from um, I was in house to today. But oddly enough I find that when you advise from the outside based on a solid operational knowledge, you actually come up quite well armed. Uh, so, so I would say to answer your question about cross border in luxury, let's say specific to luxury, I mean the complexity is omnipresent I think we've seen it over the past couple of years where certain brands have had let's say you know, let's be, let's be upfront and call it outrageous behavior in certain cultures and it does alienate a lot of people because they don't feel listened to. And that goes back to the whole perspective of how you know probably today. And it's not new but it is not, you know it is not something that was taken into account maybe 20 years ago. But I still see certain brands having, employing let's say old fashioned brand, brand model, uh, brand management models and business conduct where they are broadcasting, they are monologuing, they are not dialoguing with end consumers. So the engagement process is becoming more disruptive because you need to catch people at a uh, at a known, call it comfort zone, uh something that is familiar to their culture. And that's why again I go back to the semiotic elements of you know symbols and signs, color codes as well can be offensive in certain cultures. So you know, you need to know how to adapt before you have you know an effectful and actionable go to market strategy. But again I would, I come from the point of view of listening, taking on board registering. Um, it's, it's a little bit what I consider intuitive professionalism and life has taught us to listen to also the non verbal aspect. I'm not sure if I completely answer your question but it is you know it is also a question of being surrounded by local specificities when it comes to market knowledge. People that speak languages. We are always very respectful. So to summarize I would probably say listen agility and respectfulness in conduct.

Speaker A: Right. And I now having talked to, to various leaders in, in, in big luxury brands that these, what you describe are a bit less appearance today, maybe that has evolved and uh, people are more educated about these things. And do you, do you see uh a difference between the big luxury brands versus the more boutique ones uh ah, niche and smaller scale. Uh. Do you see differences?

Speaker B: Yes we do. I mean to be truthful we probably work more typically with the uh, established houses and to some scale ups versus let's say startups. But emerging brands and niche brands they very often do not have global staff uh to begin with so they have potentially a harder time adapting into local cultures and let's say the fluency of, of of of the cultural values. But I, I also see some of the groups that we have worked with being excessively, what would be the correct word being excessively European. If they're European in their mindset. In other words, they have not really yet for some businesses part, been able to attract the right guides to lead their businesses in, in, in let's say the Middle east, across the pan Asian continent or even in the States. Because you know, without being specific, I mean certain languages, you know, for example French or Italian, not everyone in America or in Asia or in the Middle east will understand the, the subliminal aspects. And sometimes companies hire people that they are comfortable with but that the markets may not necessarily.

Speaker A: That's touching. Um, a very interesting question that I ask myself. When it comes to luxury, how do you, when you work for luxury as a leader you're selling what I call cultural pride and in some ways, in many ways and uh, that is really uh, rooted in your own identity and rightfully so. But how do you make it resonate to another culture? How do you make it more global and how do you don't come across as arrogant in terms of your culture?

Speaker B: Yes, I mean that's precisely what I was probably referring to without using the term arrogant.

Speaker A: But you put some really um, concrete challenges and in the end it comes down to the people, right? It comes down to um, the leaders, the executives in the company having this uh, rigid mindset of understanding of different cultures. And so have you perceived any situations where leaders, executives or even the boards were either facilitating success when it comes to cross border expansion and um, business success, or on the other side, uh, coming across situation where leaders were really not like to the point, not really able to grasp, to be agile, to be open, to be curious and humble and, and what would you recommend when it comes to what would be the ideal type of leaders that could facilitate that?

Speaker B: Okay, so that's two questions in one almost because I mean one is about the governance of, of, of a given company and the other is on the board composition. But in a way they go hand in hand. Right. Because you know leadership teams are hired by a board typically, uh, or by investors. So it starts with the board. So if you have what I call 15 cut from the same cloth, uh, type personalities, well then you get a one channel business vision that most likely will not be able to challenge each other. I think at board level that ideally should be the ability to challenge each other. But at the same time you also have to have some sort of harmony uh, between the talent that you have at board level because otherwise you are unlikely to reach consensus. Right. It's like partnerships. I mean consensus is a big part of what you do when you work in a partnership. Partnership. And in a way a board composition is a mini partnership because you have to deliver results and uh, you also have to be able to make the tough decision sometimes in terms of am, um, I. Are we, is not a single person question but are we as a board able to support the business that we have either acquired or in case of a listed company, uh, have we put in place the right team, the right skill set, the right technicalities, the right cultural fit? Or are we, you know, are we not really going in the right direction? Because sometimes what you can see is that a board composition would recruit people that in the image of themselves. So again if you have a board that can vary in size, I think experience is another thing that is, that is a big thing because I mean, you know those of us that have been around the block a few times, we probably will not go into a panic mode when it comes to you know, different crises because you've set a plan and you know that you have to be agile and open to change that plan if it doesn't work in some cases immediately if it's a real crisis. Talking about the pandemic financial crisis, you know, the sort of sadly geopolitical tension that we live in right now. I mean you have to be able to navigate. So that's the other thing. Stewardship, navigation and agile, let's say personalities to me is what, what is needed both at board level and in leadership positions versus sometimes recruiting individuals that are in the cut from the same cloth as, as the board let's say. But again at board level you can probably not have an IA, an AI Wizkid of uh, 30 years old if the rest of the team are uh, I'm saying whatever here as a means of example, X ex top lawyers or financial profiles because then you will not probably have a sinking situation where you would be able to produce consensual usable advice. Because what a board is more and more asked today is questioning the capabilities of delivering a plan to their investors or if it's a stock listed company or if it's a, you know, independent brand. You always ask to someone.

Speaker A: Yes, and that's true when it comes to board composition and well in luxury industry, well Asia is not number two behind the US but China in particular is a big market. Right. And um, however do you see like in board composition like ah, quite of a high proportion of um, Chinese background, ah, board members that could advise on that or even not going that far even with deep China experience, uh, in, in the bots or if you do if you don't, maybe. Can you explain maybe why?

Speaker B: Okay, well, I, I see a bit of both. I mean, I do see companies and groups that have a glaring lack of maybe specific, specifically with Chinese individuals that know the industry globally. But others have been smart early on and strong Chinese profiles. But do they come from the right industry? Not always. They may hire somebody who comes from gas and oil into a luxury brand just because they have had a certain trajectory. I'm, um, probably exaggerating slightly here, but they may not come with a sector specific profile. They can come from another sector. And I think there are two things. There are sector specific capabilities and experience and expertise. And there is the cultural capability, a geographical focus that are probably the two most important, uh, aspects. So I think some groups, some businesses are poor in their board composition and others have been fast in selecting a good and varied type of board members that can actually bring questions, challenge and support to a leadership team.

Speaker A: I come from the assumption that it is, it is de facto important given the size of the markets. However, does it actually matter to have to have this diverse diversity in the board, uh, especially when it comes to China, when it comes to Asia? Or maybe you can actually bring that knowledge from the leadership team and not necessarily on the board level.

Speaker B: Well, if you are, that's going to be obviously my personal opinion, but I, I personally think that, that an ideal board should have more Asian representation because those are different markets and they are, they require different capabilities. But I would also say the reverse, uh, because you're seeing how the emergence of, let's say Chinese brands from the across the spectrum, brand spectrum, from urban revival to enter, uh, to Song Mont to. You have a ton of different, uh, brands that are naming Chinese. You also have obviously Japanese and Korean brands. So I suspect that we'll be seeing a lot coming the reverse way, as in, you know, brands coming out of the Asian continent that needs to adapt the way the European brands have adapted into Asia, into Europe, into the Middle east and into America. America. And um, you know, some brands, for example Icicle, they have done a good job in my opinion, to adapt into a more internationalized, let's say reality. But we all know that the bulk of that business is still realized on the Chinese continent and to a certain extent in Hong Kong. But I mean, you know, I think we will be seeing more of that. But they have in a way been ahead of the curve, which is one of the reasons Isis made that Kering has been keen to take a minority position in the Icicle group in order to have a cross border exchange platform. So that's a smart move I think, you know, both on behalf of Icicle, having done early what they've done because they have created visibility at a global scale but also obviously traction and volume. And now with caring as a minority partner, they have an opportunity of perhaps going faster in the, in the global market but equally you know, uh, accelerate their growth in, in, in, in mainland China. So again from the board perspective, I mean I also think that we need different generations. You know, there are, there is an element of demographics because you know, you have certain, I mean let's be brutally honest, you have certain elderly board members that think that you have to have had 30 or 40 years experience before you sit on a board. But guess what, the world has changed. And I think you need to have a balanced mix as I, as I mentioned earlier. But the main aspect is being specific, hold specific capabilities, skill sets and uh, experience and expertise because that's when you can challenge each other.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I do agree it makes me think of also um, when, when it comes to the male selling hygiene, female hygiene products. And then that's. How can you, how can you actually make any sense of, of that situation? It doesn't seem uh, logical. And I like when you mentioned about Icicle and I like when you mentioned because in the end of the day we, we mentioned a lot about European brands going to Asia. How to be relevant, how to, how to have the right uh, mindset and agility. But now I think the situation is actually if we compare, the European brands are doing fantastic job in being global. If you take comparison to the Chinese brands and uh, to my point, what do you think is currently missing from, and how do you explain the lack of aura that the Chinese brand uh, have? How can it be changed and how do you think it can be done? Also from a leadership perspective.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean probably it would start by having an open mind by being receptive to, let's say include uh, perhaps non Chinese members. Right. Because it is true that China has been building premium brands for a while. Have they reached that potential? I mentioned earlier how certain brands probably have an appeal and a potentiality in terms of reach and maturity that they can get to. Um, and I personally think that you are unlikely to achieve that. You are like a brand is unlikely to achieve its potential unless it's got a mix of let's say newcomers as in perhaps non Chinese members because they will be if effectively the best cultural translators and can probably help build growth, growth and scale the brand. Because a lot of that is merchandising. If you're talking fashion, you know, like I've, you know, I've seen a lot of American brands going into Asia for instance, without paying attention to aspects in a detailed way of the merchandising aspect, you know, different sizing, different uh, vestibulity as you call it in, in, in, in French and Italian. I mean you, the offer as well. The, the, the, the, the product offer needs to be geared and, and tiered to a given aspect of pricing. I think sharp pricing is where we see now with challenger luxury brands. They're getting it right. Whereas a lot of the established brands, we saw that in the post pandemic phase they probably went on uh, the journey of massive price hikes to the extent that they lost a lot of their aspirational customers because they couldn't play in that field anymore. Now some are going back and reviewing m, their price price strategies. But what I'm trying to get to is the fact that you know, new, call it new luxury brands, modern luxury brands that are now in the challenger category, they're actually getting the mix. Right. So I think that's an interesting one as well. But again, you know, Chinese, your question was about Chinese brands going global. It's a question of having, getting, putting a strong ball together together, you know, recruiting for the, for the right profiles. But you know better than anyone how difficult it is to recruit. Because what I find very often as somebody is perfect on paper and they may be fantastic at ah, Prada and perhaps not very good at one of their BMH brands because brands and groups come with different personalities. Different, different, yeah, personalities and different kind of atmospheres and corporate cultures. Right. So you could add into the equation the fact of having of hiring people that are not from a given culture, then it amplifies the complexity sometimes. Right? I mean some people say I don't want to work for a brand of X origin because I can't work with X origins, uh, owners or board or whatever. And that's the other thing. Because if you want to reach the profiles that can help you execute a plan, they have to be willing to make a change as well.

Speaker A: I like that point. It's not every company culture, it's not necessarily about the profile you get, but also about the right culture you have in your team that can attract and make the talent thrive within your organization and your team. Uh, so that's a great point. I'd like to do a little bit of a shift and getting into a little bit Your personal experience when it comes to not necessarily advising boards, but sitting on boards, how is that experience? How does feel to be on the other side? And maybe you can tell me more about, about what you, you do on that, on that regard.

Speaker B: Sitting uh, on board, you mean? Uh, I've been part of certain board advisors from fashion, fashion houses or let's say emerging brands. You know, there are days where obviously depending on the maturity of a brand, you, you, you also feel that you are uh, maybe being pulled in to almost guide at an operational level where you're not there as a replacement but for the leadership. Right. So I think it, you know, I'm careful of how I word this because there is a big shift when brands are brands and businesses of a certain level because that's really where they invest as well in uh, getting in attracting the right profiles. But sometimes we also have to be mindful, I'm saying we as uh, strategy consultants because that can be conflict of interest as well. So you know I'm having some conversations and of course I can be part of certain types of boards but then I would have to decline working in the field that the board of the business is present in. Right. But you know what I'm seeing globally now is that a lot of the board members that we get contacted by, sometimes they also exist. In the case of private equity backed firms, you basically have a board that is composed of the investors. Does that bring differentiated point of views and capabilities to the table? Sometimes yes, sometimes totally, yes. Other times possibly less so.

Speaker A: I like that transition to uh, the private equity and especially I think you and I observe from being in Hong Kong a lot of um, international brands, uh, Western brand, European brand being acquired by Chinese Hong uh, Kong private equity firms and leads towards that. And maybe you can uh, tell us more about how you see these specificities of this fashion house being operated by private equity. Uh, and then specifically from private equity that do not necessarily understand the culture of the target market or the origin market. So I'm thinking of Hong Kong private equity acquiring Swedish fashion house or French, et cetera. Maybe you can tell us more.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean you know there are some of the sort of, you know, top of mind examples when it comes to Chinese owned, I mean they're stock listed in the US is obviously the Lanvin Group that has Longvin and Sergio Rossi and whatever it's called, the American uh, knitwear brand and Walford. So that's a group that I think has got a lot of potential. They now have just announced, uh, announced a New CEO. So we will see how it goes. But I think, I think there has probably been expectations from the, from the Chinese ownership that have not been realistic in a European context. That's how I would probably describe that. You also have other groups like mtab, they have acquired quite a few brands, Jack Woolst Skin and others. But I think they've been smart in how they have hired let's say people in the geographies to keep the brand intact, the brand spirit intact. There is a lot to be said about that as well because you need to keep um, the halo of a given brand in its pristine format. Right. But back to your question on groups and private equity overall. This is an overall, not necessarily specific to Hong Kong based private equity firms, but I would say private equity owned uh, companies are uh, by and large quite interesting to work for both I believe for leadership teams because you get a broader exposure to all the, let's say various components of a business that can, that, that constitute a uh, business. But also for people like us, coming in with you know, with a mindset of looking at the long lens, how you future proof your business in terms of operational, know how IT system, supply chain, all these kind of things. But again we merge branding with strategy consulting. So for us we can be very effectful for these type of firms because we know that if a brand is private equity owned they typically have milestones that they need to reach within a given time frame because the intention is not to own a brand for life, the intention is typically to own it for a specific period of time. And so value creation and you know, let's say enhancing performance tools and systems are um, uh, paramount during that period. So it caters to a fast paced, accelerated uh, speed because you, you need to look at many aspects at the same time. What I find is that you know today's businesses in luxury, we also work in design, hospitality, beauty. But most of the time a brand sets a long term vision with a uh, with a parallel track, that is short term execution. I mean before we even sit down with people, initial calls are very often focused on okay, what have you delivered over the period of the past six months, how has it affected the business? I mean literally like that. And you know, I like that because it is, it is where we want to be. We want to be where we can make real change. Not selling strategy advice or creative branding solutions that will not reach, let's say the, the its audience. We wanted to translate into impactful roadmaps that will produce results. Right. So that is sometimes what we see with private equity owned brands is that the journey is very targeted and they are very, they're very clear about what they want in, in, in quantitative terms, sometimes less clear about what they want in qualitative terms. Because you know, I think anyone that has been working in the luxury industry for a long time and has been part of also creating desirable products, not that I am um, creative, but I understand the creative process very well and I believe that if you don't have product desirability and the right product assortment in place, you're unlikely to take business. So it is the other side of the coin and you know, it's just, but it is an interesting phase when brands go through transitions, different ownerships, but we sometimes also advise in uh, selling companies mostly, sometimes also acquiring them. But you know, typically what you're looking for is also the long term. For example Chanel, Hermes, the large independent brands, that success was not built in five years. Right. So that's sometimes the examples that we bring up with certain private equity firms. Because you can't create legacy, you know, monsters, let's put it that way. Every, every five, fifth year, it's impossible, right? It takes time. So you probably have less of a, of a long term vision if you are a private equity owned firm. There are exceptions because there are actually private equity firms that operate so they're long term owners and I think that's really where you can convey talent and long term trajectory in terms of performance.

Speaker A: Do you have just to stay on the topic of how you advise uh, these brands like you mentioned, specifically on the private equity cases and the transformation of ownership and this transformation journey. Transition journey, sorry. And can you also tell us how your advisory practice, what are the, the, the general, uh, the most common cases where um, the clients, the fashion house, they come to your, you and they want to expand, they want, they are facing some challenges going to Asia. What are these usual cases and how does your firm help them?

Speaker B: Sometimes certain brands that are new, ish, let's say maybe five or 10 years, you know, they will be upfront about what they understand and what they don't understand. And um, I, I always believe that intelligent people will say this is what I know about and this is what I know less about. And you know, that's when you bring in, let's say expertise and what we do, I mean we have, we have people that are Chinese speakers, we have people that are Japanese speakers, we have others that we call in for Korea. So we pretty much cover first of all from a language Perspective most of the markets but also we have in certain cases, you know, boots on the ground. That helps especially when people have different qualifications and that understand uh, let's say uh, inherently uh, certain cultures. So I think people are quite comfortable coming with us with mandates that are global because I think today's market it's difficult to have a brand or a business that is not uh, versatile enough to appeal to different markets. I think most people that build brands uh, today and when I say today, I mean recent brands, not the legacy brands. They have done so smart scope and philosophy of understanding what a they want to achieve, who they are, what their audience is and then take advice when you go into, you know, to kind of go into certain markets with uh, with efficient, go to market strategies. Sometimes you don't have all the experts in house. But we also see another phenomenon. I don't know how big it is yet in Asia, but I know some people that certainly work with that like fractional C Suite. Right. Because it can answer a lot of people's questions. You know, I've always sort of broadly said it's better to have access to a high level individual one day a week versus having a less efficient somebody there 100% of the time. So that's a way also of hatching your budgets in a different way. We sometimes are asked to recommend fractional profiles as well. And there are more and more people that want to work differently today. And I actually think it's richness too that you are not only seeing one brand 15 times a as in we see a lot of different business models, we see a lot of different practices. And I think actually that's part of, of our, that's part of the reason that we can be efficient because we can come fast and assess and diagnose, diagnose and, and analyze a given situation, come up with concrete solution based roadmaps. And again that can be, you know, what some people do. Others will ask us uh, to have somebody in a fractional position over the long term because they want to have a lifeline or that kind of advice but on a retained basis.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So you know I, I suspect as I said earlier that fractional perhaps leaderships and more multicultural compositions and more multicultural leadership teams is one what a given business brand organization needs in order to stay, you know, ahead of the curve.

Speaker A: Do you have um, specific challenges, concrete challenges that the clients come to you with and, and ask for your help when it comes again connected to European brands being in Asia or China, if you have any.

Speaker B: Sometimes it can Be that certain brands, even of a, certain, of a, of a, let's say sizable, uh, volume, they don't always understand why they are not taking the same market share or performance as their competitors are. You know, it's a rational question which I totally understand. But then we go into the, we go into our uh, toolbox and our fine tuning kind of mind space and we kind of try to look at what they have done that was efficient, what they might have, might have done that was less efficient. And sometimes it turns out that they have not been able to build the right engagement processes. In other words, they have not reached that audience. Because you'll agree with me that in China specifically there is not one client typology. Today. There are so many that we have names for across demographics, uh, and across profiles. So the whole client profiling aspect is sometimes what weakens a brand's performance. And you know, the whole phenomena of calls the influencers and key opinion leaders and so on. In China, you can't use the same actor, uh, singer for. Across all the brands which, you know, we've seen a tendency, certain groups have been, let's say, targeting more or less the same people. There have been some, also some scandals there. I'm not saying it's easy. I just, I'm just trying to express how complex it is. But you have to go into the deeper, uh, end of dissecting why a given brand has not had much performance and how it is invariably affecting uh, business. Right. I mean it's, it's fine tuning the tools you have and the uh, execution levels as well.

Speaker A: That's. I, I can only agree with what you mentioned, especially around China and maybe to a little bit a, uh, close on this conversation. How do you say would be your activity, uh, in your advisory practice around China and uh, do you wish to work more uh, with brands to China or are you already doing in a sizable. Do you already have a sizable activity? And uh, and, and how do you see also the phenomenon of working with uh, Chinese brands, uh, in Europe?

Speaker B: It would be truthful to say, Kevin, that we have mainly m worked on behalf of, let's say international brands into China versus the opposite. I mean, I've had, I've had some interaction with Chinese companies and we are keen to continue that dialogue because as I said earlier, we are convinced that there'll be a lot more coming, a lot more talent and brands and the premium luxury coming from the Asian continent into the global markets. We'd love to do more, we'd love to speak to people. But I guess what sets us apart, truthfully is the fact that we can go full circle. In other words, we can take things from strategic vision, combine it with a good dose of creative branding to understand the design language and the halo of a brand, to translate that into actionable consumer facing solutions. We can also look at the longer term of future proving systems and kind of, uh, support in a more technical manner. But, but do we, do I speak Chinese? No. The answer is no. We have people that do. Some of these groups are already present in certain, uh, global markets. But I think it's maybe in, in China that you need to get under the skin almost of the Chinese ownerships, in some cases the board. Because, and, and that's. I'm, um, I'm turning the question to you that you asked me before. Are Chinese owned brands willing to or receptive rather than willing to. Are they receptive to that? I, I don't know, but I think that's maybe where, where the big changes and magic may take place.

Speaker A: That was great to have you today. I, uh, appreciate the conversation. I'm sure the listeners will do too. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to Leaders in Motion. And if you want to go further, join the Leaders in Motion Academy, our executive program. The first step is simple. Subscribe to our newsletter in the show notes and you'll get access to our exclusive insight and all the details about the academy. This podcast is produced by Melanie Hong, who helps leaders and organizations create strategic podcasts. I'm Kevin Hong and see you next time.