29. The Integration Gap: Why Cross-Border Placements Fail on Culture, Not Skill with Jie Hong

Hello, I'm Kevin Hong. I'm a partner at LYC Partners, an executive search and leadership advisory firm. I'm also the co founder of the Council, a private network for senior executives. And this is Leaders in Motion. Cross border executive placements rarely fail because someone lacks the skill. They fail in the integration they and how authority is read, how conflict is handled, how feedback lands and what alignment really means across cultures. Today we are talking about cultural integration as a core execution risk, especially in the first 90 days and what actually works to prevent friction from compounding. My guest today is Jerome, a trilingual executive coach and consultant working across English, French and Chinese with live experience across China, North America and Europe. Jie, welcome to the show. Thank you, Kevin. It's a pleasure. Great. You have quite of a unique story as well. Personally, but also professionally, especially moving across countries. I'll let you set the stage and tell us more about you. All right, so I was born in Shanghai in China. And at the age of 19 I moved to Toronto with my parents. And at the beginning of my career I was in mass media, radio and television, arts and also music. And then I worked in higher education for about 25 years including when I moved to France from Canada. So it was more marketing and leading international teams across the different continents. And the last few years I transitioned once again into executive coaching based on my experience. And also coaching is something that I'm passionate about and I've seen so many potential in people in leaders. However, it's a bit underestimated by the knowledge and the recognition of how intercultural competence is important in the cross cultural leadership. So that's where I am today, working with different leaders. And on the intercultural side, I'd be interested to know where do you see the value of intercultural leadership integration in your coaching and especially given you connecting so many diverse cultures and countries? Well, from what I've seen is today there's a lot of companies when, when they move executives or they hire executives across countries, they usually they focus on the, the technical skills, the industry fit. They still see culture as like a soft issue, not an execution issue. So they underestimate how important when it comes to trust, communication, norms and decision making, it can be so different across different cultures. So what happens is a leader that is very successful in one environment, when you move to another environment became a lot less efficient and it's not because he or she lacks capability, it's because the behaviors that made him successful in one country, one context does not really translate into the other one. And for example, we're talking about leaders here, not just different levels of employees. And one of the top job of a leader is to unite the team for everyone to work together. And for that, trust is essential because we can't trust if we don't trust our leader. It's hard for us to do the best. And trust works very differently across cultures as well. One example you must know, Kevin, for example, a Chinese, a Chinese leader, sometimes, you know, they don't really share their disagreement in front of you. They would be smiling, they would be nodding, but smiling, nodding. Or even they would say, yes, yes. But that yes doesn't mean the same thing. In some countries, yes means yes. Some countries, yes means okay, I hear you. Or some countries it means okay, I understand. So if it doesn't translate, if people think you're saying yes, but then afterwards you don't agree, and then the trust is already gone. And it takes more time to repair that trust, the example you provided does. Maybe you can tell us more about. I recently read the book by Hofsted. It's very famous for his study, his book on cultures and organizations. So he basically did studies across, I think, 70 different countries and in four different areas. One is power distance. It's like how the acceptance and hierarchy is viewed, and then the individualism versus collectivism and masculinity and femininity and uncertain avoidance. So what I did is my three countries, China, Canada and France, and I specifically pull out these three countries and their index for these three areas. So it helps me to see how I moved across different countries and how my view of leadership and my own personal values is also modifying across these countries. So, for example, the first one is power distance is how do you accept the differences between hierarchy? How do you respect the hierarchy? And China, for example, is rated very high. And as you know, you know, if the leader says something, we follow, you know. And Canada, however, is ranked on the lower side. And this I see clearly handed. When I first moved to Canada, you know, we can talk to our professors like they're our friends, but in China, the professors regard it as such a high level. So once again, there's this huge shift. And then when I moved to France, in Europe, well, Europe is big. In Europe, there's also differences, but France specifically was more in the middle. So it's in between China and France. So I am kind of moving across countries. And my view, my idea of how authority is being viewed is also moving across different countries. And then in Nordic countries, which is even way lower than Canada, in there they don't see authority as something that you, the hierarchy as something you need to respect, you need to follow. So for example, when a Chinese leader, when they say something, they're a strong leader in China is considered as someone who gives directions and then they can tell people what to do. But in Nordic countries it's more someone who will ask people's advice, ideas, let's discuss, let's make decisions together. If you come in strong as okay, this is a decision I made, we're all going to do that together. It will be seen as someone who is maybe a little like a dictator or very directive. So it will not be well received. In France, I think it's a little bit in between. People do respect hierarchy, but at the same time they also respect cooperation. So it's really in the middle. But that once again it's the general view of the general cultural. Then you have also individual leadership, individual company culture as well. I would also like to flip the view on Chinese leadership and how it is often perceived as a strong posture on the leader and the decision and authority. But what I see in China is that it's also bringing a lot of responsibility and accountability on the shoulder of the leader. And this is something that is often overlooked. They may practice that more top down approach sometimes, but what they don't always realize is the expectation from the team of not being able, of having to be, you are accountable, it does not matter if you are not the one making decision all the time and the headquarters told you to do XYZ and you don't, it's not in your power. But they feel easily demotivated if they see a leader that doesn't take accountability. What do you think? Do you feel like there's also different level of expectation when it comes to the team? Absolutely. Kevin, what you mentioned is one of the key things. It's the expectations of what the leader should be in the different country, the different culture. And I think as you mentioned many times when a new leader comes, he will talk about, okay, the new strategy, what we gonna do achieve together. However, there is this one conversation that is really being discussed is how are we going to work together? What is the assumptions, what is your expectations? And that is super key. It's how are we going to communicate together. And simple conversation like that as a leader, what my expectations is from where I come from and let's share what your expectations are because this is when the golden key comes from to unlock the future misunderstandings. So when each side have their own expectations and then they, on the surface they try to follow the company rules. You say this, I do this, but the distrust starts. Little by little it accumulates. So this is a key conversation. I think many companies, many leaders, they often underestimate the importance. They talk about the technical stuff. But like you said, what do you expect as a leader? And ask also the team, what is your expectations? From me I like when you say, I mean cannot emphasize that more about underestimated. Focusing on soft skills is overlooked. And I feel it's even more true when it comes to the Chinese culture. Do you feel like Chinese companies, Chinese leaders, they do value or maybe not too much yet this cross cultural leadership as you present it. It's funny because I have seen the Chinese culture because I'm into coaching and coaching is quite well known industry in especially in North America and in France as well. But however, in Chinese culture when you approach them with the subject of coaching, it is more closed subject for them. And then I was wondering why. And then it occurs to me because in Chinese culture there's a say in Chinese that when you have some something that is not so glamorous, something that's not so well seen, you don't tell the outsiders, you keep these things to yourself. And coaching is about when the client has a problem. So you would help them, but that first means the client needs to share the problem. But they have trouble to share their issues with people that are from outside. So they will try to handle it internally. But that actually may also cause them a a lot of money in the end. Just to give you an example, there are Chinese leader the other way around. The Chinese leader, they're also going global. They want to expand into the western countries. And if they don't have that intercultural intelligence and information, they would also come to Europe with their idea of what leadership should be. So it's the other side. So I recently witnessed a Chinese company, they bought a French company. So they come in thinking we got the money, we're quick to decide, we have the resources, we're going to make things happen. And of course they are taking over a French team. And in China, as you know, the leadership team is like you do this and then they will follow the leadership because that's how it works. So they come in with the same mindset, except it doesn't work the same thing in France. Here they want to talk, they would argue. The French, they sometimes they love to debate. Oh no, no, no, it's like that. So it's becoming already challenging in the commun but then for Chinese leaders, there is also a mindset, okay, if this doesn't work, we can always replace the person with someone else. But in France, the employees are very well protected. In China, not so. So you can't just do that. And also if people, sometimes they also have sick leave and which are paid sick leave. So what will happen is the tension gets strong and then in the end you have people on sick leave and you can't really replace them. So all of these things, the Chinese leader, they never really thought about until it comes face to face with the situation. So but I guess, you know, it's a whole trial and error. You learn from initial experiences. It's part of the global transition learning. But I think there are a lot of things that can be discussed about how Chinese leadership going global is poorly received or welcomed around the world and also because of the cultural differences. But at the same time we should cut some slack in a way that is very new for most of them. And so there is a learning curve that is going to take time for sure. And it's both ways. And you mentioned something very important. There are a lot of things to be discussed, to be learned. And you know, today with AI, with books, the information's out there. But as I mentioned at the beginning, the companies underestimate, they focus on the leadership in terms of the technical skills. They don't put enough time and resources into this leadership, intercultural leadership aspect. And this is something right from the beginning because it sets the tone for the entire cooperation. They deal with it afterwards when the problem came, oh, now it's complicated now what do we do? But it's a bit late. Imagine if it was done at the very beginning. Yeah, for sure. I'd like to come back to what you mentioned about the China, the Chinese, well, how Chinese leaders are not, are trying to well, save face when they have issues and they do not want to share to the outside world or external parties. And I do feel that you mentioned technical skills and Chinese culture value a lot technical skills. Like they put on a very high hierarchy. People who are like Quanjia, like the very specialist, the very, very technical people, but also like the, the, the teachers, the professors. Right, Laoshi. So that you have both the combination and, and what I've observed is when the, the coach are generally called teachers or professors. So in order to get that level of seniority that is required to discuss eye to eye to a leader. But what do you think about this? It's so funny you mentioned that because I, I, because I I knew exactly what you mean because when I deal with some of the Chinese leadership team, they would also call me Laoshi and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. I'm not a teacher, I'm not a professor. But this is a way of respect, right? And they value your knowledge. And so this all comes down to all these cultural roots for the Chinese people, it's a way of respect. It doesn't mean you can teach them, you're their teacher, but it's more like a respect. But this in North America or Europe, it's like weird, why do they call teacher? But I think they do that with the Chinese because you and I were both Chinese, so they wouldn't do, they wouldn't call the European people when they see them call them teacher. But yeah, it's all these high context countries when things are not set but you understand right away what do they mean. And I love that. So interesting. If I were to be a Chinese leader representing a Chinese organization, well, in the same situation, same scenario as you described earlier, acquiring a French company, what would be the things that I would need to learn about the French culture? How to manage beyond the labor law, but more on the leadership level? Well, I think already if you don't have anyone to support you on that, if you're on your own, you can do some research to find the general cultural behaviors and or especially about how decisions are made in France and how trust is established in French culture and how authority is respected in that culture. Because as a leader, authority making, decision, trust, those are three main areas. And what I really like is Erin Mayer, who wrote the book the Culture Map. She mentioned this word called authentic flexibility. It doesn't mean that you're going to change yourself. So, so imagine xu is a metaphor. You have two legs when you go into a new culture. One leg, it's your own leg, it's your own values, but the other leg is the new values in that country. So I'm not saying you should completely put aside what you believe, what you think is correct and what you knew all these years, but absorbing the new ones how in that culture people make decisions, do they make decisions together? Do they make decisions individually? And how are some of the things that can erupt trust in that culture and then just have the self awareness and how do people view authority? Do they respect authority the same way as they respect authority where I came from? And once you have this awareness, that's the first step. The second thing is when you move to a country so there will be a Lot of new things. You might be under stress. Once you're under stress, you forget about all these intellectual things. You learn. It's the, you know, because then you, you go back, you revert back to the behavior that made you the strong leader in your own country. So, so this is something you, you need to really take a step back and, and it's okay to make mistakes, but remember what happened. And then behavior adaptation is something else that you need to actually put into practice. And I think the key thing is maybe spot one or two people in your team and say, hey, you know what? So be vulnerable, be authentic. I'm new in this, and I want to make sure that I'm also adapting into your local team culture. So if you see something that maybe I don't see myself, let me know. You know, to have these open conversations with the team, these are topics that are so broad. And how do you feel that this is perceived? Because this is usually something that is not necessarily. How do you make it applicable from day one? And I think this is, we are in an era where it's somehow quite transactional and people expect, okay, so how do I, how, how do I apply that and how do I get the effect and the result from it? Concretely, I think a conversation with the team, when you arrive as a new person in a new culture, of course you talk about your objectives, but also you, you will have a session just on how are we going to collaborate together? You know, simple as that. But it's not done by most of the companies. So you can have a facilitator support if you want professional support, guidance on that. And if not as a leader, you know, just open conversation. You know, what do you guys expect from me? What made you, what would be something that would be motivating for you? And in terms of the communication, sometimes you know, the same word, Kevin, can be interpreted differently. I was at this seminar with 130 different leaders from around the world. And as the facilitator, I told them, please be on time, right? And then at the first session I realized the people from the Nordic be Scandinavian, they arrived on time because for them on time is on time, but the French people on time is five minutes after. So all of these things is. Let's discuss what does mean for the different words? What does it mean for you when you say agree? That means you are on board. And to really have this transparent conversation, it might not be comfortable or many leaders, especially technical leaders, they're not good with this kind of conversation. But this is exactly when an intercultural expert or a facilitator can really support one session one morning. But imagine the long way ahead afterwards because that opens way for people to see you're creating a psychological safety for people. We can talk about our differences because if you just come saying, hey, this is what we're going to do, they don't even know if they're comfortable to telling you that they're not comfortable. So that's very important. I think we'd be interested to know like two examples from French leaders and also Chinese leaders, what they might say that might sound very legitimate or sure proof of leadership from a Chinese perspective, but might feel offensive for French, but vice versa as well. If you have any situations on these two aspects, one of the thing is for Chinese people, quick and quiet, that is something. It's in their DNA. We do something, we get to do it quick. And for French people, you know, when you just put quick, quick, it gives the impression you just want speed. You know, for them it's not speed, it's this process of making the decision. It's like, let's talk about it. They want that actual process of debating and to make it meaningful for them and not just like, this is what we're going to do, let's do it quick. So that can't be demotivating for the French people. But on the other side, the Chinese leaders, if they're not used to their subordinates or employ questioning them and mention their own ideas or disagree with them in the, in front of them, they might see it as. As disrespect, you know, so all these assumptions. And it's funny, the other day I. We had a meeting with the Chinese leader and the French team. The French person, it was during lunchtime, so the French person was eating some nuts. And for them this is just, you know, it's lunchtime, they're hungry, you know, they just eat some nuts, not a problem. It's just meeting. But then the. The Chinese leader, like, wow, they're not very respectful. They're eating in front of me. You know, all of these things, they're actually assumptions and then the judgment behind the assumptions. So it's so important when you are leading across cultures to let go the assumptions because people are different from you. You know, what I do is there is one book that I really love. It's nothing to do with intercultural leadership, but this is the basis for me, for my work. And it's a book, I don't know if you heard about it, called the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. Four Agreements. And it's, it's a book about a practical guide to personal freedom. Okay, and the Four Agreements. And it's funny because it just fits perfectly with what we're talking about here. The number one, the first is be impeccable with your words and to be, be careful of what you say and understand what you're saying, how it is received by the other side. It's not what your intention is. And the second thing is don't make, do not make assumptions. And this does, is not even intercultural. It can be used in, in our daily life with our families, because sometimes, you know, the frictions come because we make assumptions. You're saying that because you do that? No, do not make exception assumptions, ask questions. The third one is do not take things personally. Once again, it's not just intercultural, it's in our daily life. And the last one is always do your best. So I use that as a guide for myself because so many times the collaboration collapse because communication issues, people just cannot stand each other anymore because they don't understand and they have misunderstandings. So I think this is, this is also the part that is extremely difficult. Do not make assumptions. But when people don't even realize they're making assumptions, because this is part of how they process information in the world. How, how do you explain that and how do you like break that down in terms of like looking down into their own value, set of values, set of frameworks to, to interpret what's happening. How do, how do you do that? Well, this is something as a leader, if you want to work on yourself to be in a different leadership position, do not make assumption is key because when you make assumption about something, you start to bring in your own judgment and you forgot people are different. Not just different culture, in the same culture, people are just different. And then to give you an example, when I was doing the facilitation training, one of the activity was for each team to write their feedback on a post. It put it on the wall. So as a leadership facilitator, I walk around the room. So the other teams, they all put a lot of post it and there's one team, there's nothing on the wall. So first of all in my head, because I still have all these assumptions that I made in the past, I was like, they're not working hard, they're not doing anything. But then, because I have worked on myself all the time, you know, do not make assumptions simply asking questions. I join the team and I See what's going on and what's happening is that team was all French people. And this is the first time the seminar is done in English. So they have a lot of great ideas, but they don't know how to put it in concise English language on the post it and you see if you as a regular leader, if you don't ask questions, you just judge. Well, they're not good, they don't want to work and they're lazy. And then you judge them and then they're going to come back to say why you don't understand. This is where frictions comes. So by simply be curious, be curious and ask questions. And then I was supporting them how to put things into simple English. Because one thing about intercultural collaboration leadership is the language. It can be a huge barrier. This is so, so interesting and I love that word because I heard it from another facilitator at the seminar and she mentioned we're going to use the word globish and what that is. It's created by, popularized by a French executive at IBM because he realized that in most of the international settings in English, the English is spoken by non native people. So it's like, it's actually like you and me and like all these people that I at the seminar. So he's recommending we use globish. So global English, these are not very polished native English, but they're simple English so that everybody can use simple English to the point. No, no slangs, no, you know, technical words, but simple. So when you said that that is part of psychological safety. Everybody use simple words and then people feel more, you know, motivated to engage because otherwise that French team, they're like, you know, it's not my native language. They don't know how to put words down. So they're struggling. So by supporting them, you're making them feel safe to say what they really want to say. So that's something. I think it's, it's important. Yeah, I think, I think it's you, you put it right. Sometimes it's not just a matter of, of the, of language. But also speaking one language can put you a little bit more insecure and uncomfortable because this is not your native language. Definitely. So I think, I think it's putting. What you mentioned is referring to putting safety first so that people feel comfortable. Psychological safety. And to do that through, is through communication. You know, you let people know it's okay. We all come from different background. And you, you let people know as a leader that I appreciate Difference. And I would like guys to help me, to support me. You know, Renee Brown, talk about vulnerability. And it's so important. I'm the one who's new here, right. You guys have been here for long, and this is your territory. So help me to help us work better together. And that's. That's the very human part, because leadership, in the end, we're leading humans. And so it's a communication between humans, regardless of your culture. Because honestly, in the same culture, you can have so many frictions and things don't work for the same reason. Right. Yeah. I really like that you mentioned how you bring people on a neutral level when it comes to languages. And I think people don't always realize that when they speak the same language, but sometimes it implies a level of inferiority or dominance above the other or under the other if you don't have the same level of mastery. And it happens the same to me. People ask me why you speak Chinese and you don't speak in Chinese with them. It's like, well, they use too much, and I don't feel at the same level of. Of events they do. And I'm like, okay, maybe I prefer to equalize, to balance out. For sure, in the intercultural settings, you communicate through languages, and so that's also something. But it's okay. We can admit that we don't know some things and we can ask to switch to different languages, but as long as you're open and you don't make assumptions and you don't take things personally, that part is very difficult to do because we're used to. We grew up taking things personally. We grew up making assumptions about everything. We grew up judging everything we see. That's different. But I'm unlearning so many things I learned as a child and because this is more meaningful to me. So. Right. And coming to. Back to the. To the business setting. I speak to a few Chinese companies and also going global, et cetera. I mean, I try to interpret it in a way that also the Western firms, when they went abroad, they also send expats in the same way. But now Chinese companies are sending also Chinese people. And I have a lot of leaders. They tell me, well, it's better. I mean, we prefer to hire Chinese people everywhere. And either. Either the diaspora, the returnees are sending them from China. And instead of hiring local, they hire Chinese people because they want to stay in the comfort zone, because what's familiar, they. Then it's easier. But hiring local people, the benefit is you tap into the local knowledge. And that's what makes things work in that context. And they can bring in so many insights that you won't know and you won't see these things on the books. It's the nom die en francais. It's the non sad things that the local people can help you and they know what works in that context. But for the Chinese leader, it's easier because they have their own way. You know, the Chinese people, they work on WeChat and they expect instant replies and that will be difficult also if you work with chai French, because French you have the Loire de disconnection, the law of disconnect. So after 7pm, nobody, my boss cannot reach me. Ooh, that could be tricky for the Chinese boss. So. So I understand completely why they hire Chinese people, their own own people because a lot of the things it's, they don't need to explain and it's easier, it's comfortable. But what you're losing out is all the local knowledge and what you're putting yourself in risk is those tensions, those lack of, I wouldn't say lack of, but how to build the trust that is essential for this new collaboration, to work with the local team. Especially if you're a huge local team. Unless the Chinese leader who moved to the other country is going through a set of formal training when it comes to international cross cultural competence, I will take another situation and I will also like take on the other side. I am a French leader and I'm being sent to China and I need to prepare for my trip or for my new venture. What would be the coaching lesson, the tips, the advice that you would give me? The first thing is get a WeChat account because that's how it works. And understanding that the technologies work differently too. Because the AIs in China are not the AIs you know, in Europe and not because they don't want to, because it's blocked North America. So those are the technical side, you know, if you're a technical leader and then when you talk to, when you're in China, you know, people are very nice, you know the welcoming that you will receive. But at the same time I do understand the agreement works differently. And the notion of face, that's a classic for them. If they don't agree with you, especially they don't know you and you're their boss, it will be rare that they will tell you. But those feedbacks are so important for a leader to know. So create that psychological safety, tell people, you know, I'm new here and have this conversation with people and to say that, is there something that it can help me to better understand how the team works here? What is the best practice for the team to be. To be engaged. Engaged and talk to local people and find one or two trusted people to have that conversation besides your regular agenda. That's. I think when you mentioned face, it's such people. I feel like people understand. I mean, people believe they understand the concept because it has been talked about for quite some time already. But it goes down to really small interaction. Right. It's not just, it's constant. It's not just about not disagreeing in public or criticizing in public. Right. You're right. So one, One advice I would give is if you, you have a meeting and then you talk about something and then people are like, yes, yes. You know, with the Chinese colleagues, when you see that, don't just assume, okay, good, they agree, that's it. But just asking a little bit more. So, okay, so I see you're nodding. So tell me, what would you think we should do next? Just follow up with a question. Because if the person is really nodding but in their head, they're like, no way. And you said, what do you think we should do next? Then the detailed concrete things will come out. Because if they don't agree, they're like, then this is when they say, yes, yes, but actually maybe we should do something else. But if you don't ask, you just take it at face value. You think they're yes but no, or just say, when you say yes, do you say, okay, is there any difficulties you can see if we go ahead with this? So these are the questions. So this is where coaching comes. You know, the different questions. Because if you ask what other difficulties you may see that can happen and you're giving them the way you're giving them the ladder to go to get into what they're really thinking. So there are different ways to provoke the real thinking behind the surface. Yes. How do you, how do you see it, practically speaking, the different type of integration situation when it comes to coaching? Let's take an example. If I were like in, in executive search and recruitment, right? We, we interview, we assess. How would you. What would be the tip, the advice that you would give me to understand the readiness of a person to actually navigate within one specific sect of culture. Values. Culture, mindset as an interviewer? Well, I think some of the questions I would ask is already ask the person their personal values. Because if the personal values is, you know, respect, listening, empathy, that kind of shows already the groundwork because what we're talking about here is heavy, heavy empathy to understand that we're different and it's okay. And also you can ask them the question that you ask me. For you to move into a new country to lead a new team, what are some important things? And if it's only technical or, you know, that kind of shows you some of the signs. But if the person mentioned, you know, communication and it shows cultural awareness. But of course, for a company that's hiring a new leader in the new country, once again, the hiring team, they might be focused on the technical team. They don't care about the intercultural competency, as we mentioned at the beginning. So this is where the coaching support for the person at the very beginning can be very important. Company maybe they see it as, oh, it's a waste of time, they already did that in their own country. I'm sure they can do it in another country. But no, this is exactly where that trust, that relationship comes in. And that can make a huge impact if not properly done. Right. I see, I think there's still a long way to go when it comes to Chinese companies going abroad when it comes to embracing cultural coaching. And, but how do you see that? Do you see that there is a level of interest that is growing over time because of the mistakes? How would you see that evolving over the next few months or a couple of years? Well, to be honest, right now the companies are all struggling with AI. This is the topic. Everybody's like, oh, what do we do? So unfortunately, I think the cultural intercultural competence side is once again being put behind on the agenda. However, and I guess there, but what will happen is there will be consequences. And, but they don't realize it's because of this cultural competence. They just think it's part of the cross cultural challenges every company will face. So that's a decision to be made by each company for the ones that do seek out support at the very beginning. And they will see the impact because the leaders that I support them at the very beginning and then they were like, wow. And this I never thought about. And it helps him in the long run to, to see the benefit of the preparation done in advance. I know that we discussed more privately before that you, you also have a daughter who is living across culture and, and, and, and so do I. And how do you, how do you see that, how do you see the business? I mean, we often talk about obviously the benefits of living cross cultures, but practically speaking, there are a lot of challenges as a parent, I would assume that when it comes to identity, how do you see that general topic of raising a third culture child? Well, I love that topic. My child, my daughter, not only, you know, not just bilingual, but trilingual, because I'm also Canadian, so there is a French, Chinese, Canadian identity. And I think they're very lucky. It might not be easy for the parents, but for the children, they're so lucky to grow up in this environment because these intercultural children, they usually have more curiosity when it comes to different cultures, and they have more tolerance when they encounter cultures that are different than their own. And this is something I believe so much in today's world. And so my daughter, she actually, she speaks the three languages. And when she was young, she would come home, she's like, why. Why do you make me speak Chinese? Everybody else speaks French. And I keep on telling her, I know she gets. She doesn't get it. You will know how important this is when you grow up. So we need to fight that resistance at the beginning. But now she can watch things in Chinese, and when she goes to China, she can talk to everyone. This is so important. It's not about the identity. It's not single identity. It's. It's who you are as a human being, but with a different culture that is part of you. And, and one thing I want to share is something, when I was educating my daughter, one of the principle. I use this phrase I always remember, it's called correct, a connection before correction. So when I used to be the Chinese tiger mom before I did all this personal development work on myself, I'm like, no, you do this. You play piano, you make your wine's 98 and the wine's not 100. And I didn't like that. So I worked on myself. And then I understand before you correct someone, you connect with them first. You ask them what's going on. And I think this can be also very useful for the intercultural leadership connection. Before correction, when you come into a new team, you start judging people, you start to say, why are you doing things this way? Before you correct, you connect. Connect by asking questions. Tell me more about it. Why would you do this? What. What is behind this? So that works for children, but that also works for leaders. I don't know if it speaks to. I think in, in Chinese settings, it's all about results and efficiency and, and, and. And this correction is, is faster, it's more efficient. Right. So I tend to see that much more than the opp that what you described. But you know what I ask myself though, that one question helped me change my mindset. And I do ask myself in the end, because I want her to play piano. I want her to play perfectly, just like me, but she doesn't. So I get mad. But then in the end I ask my question, is it more important that she plays piano perfectly or is it more important that we have a very harmonious relationship as mother and daughter? And when I ask myself that question, the answer is clear. The relationship. And the same thing when it comes to the company. When you have a good working relationship, people will do more, people will engage more. But if, if the relationship is puhi, it's horrible, then they don't want to do their job. It's like you're pushing something so difficult. So when the relationship is correctly, you know, managed, so many things happen. I tend to explain that also in, in the Chinese culture, because of demography, right? China has been living historically on, on, on a on set of values and culture where there was massive amount of workforce and people. And therefore, individually speaking, you have to adjust to the mass and to the group and not the opposite, not the other way around. I know it's super collective in that way. China is ranked very high collectivism compared to the individualism in like Nordic countries. I really love when you mentioned all the differences, giving a lot of different examples and especially I think to put into words what can be the consequences in business that are very tangible and not necessarily just soft skills, as we can say, and good to have and not necessarily a must have for many leaders and organizations. So thank you for hearing, Jay. Well, thank you, Kevin, for inviting me for this conversation that I'm passionate about. And I think, you know, for leaders it's really just to embrace the differences and you can move comfortably between cultures. Thank you for listening to Leaders in Motion. And if you want to go further, join the Leaders in Motion Academy, our executive program. The first step is simple. Subscribe to our newsletter in the show notes and you get access to our exclusive insights and all the details about the Academy Me this podcast is produced by Melanie Hong, who helps leaders and organizations create strategic podcasts. I'm Kevin Hong and see you next time.