57 Imposter Syndrome Is a Fallacy: Dr. Nicole Pulliam on Equity in Leadership

1 00:00:06,073 --> 00:00:08,192 Rebecca Hamm: Welcome to Joyfully Unstoppable, the 2 00:00:08,192 --> 00:00:12,012 podcast for women who are ready to succeed without the stress. 3 00:00:12,462 --> 00:00:16,643 Whether you're leading a team, a classroom, a boardroom, or your 4 00:00:16,681 --> 00:00:21,071 own big, beautiful life, I am so glad you found us. 5 00:00:21,443 --> 00:00:24,893 I'm your host, Becky Hamm, executive coach, speaker, and 6 00:00:24,893 --> 00:00:26,553 founder of Women Lead Well. 7 00:00:27,332 --> 00:00:31,103 me each week for straight talk, practical tips, and a dash of 8 00:00:31,103 --> 00:00:32,073 encouragement. 9 00:00:32,853 --> 00:00:33,713 Hello, friend. 10 00:00:33,722 --> 00:00:36,162 I hope you are having a great day. 11 00:00:36,281 --> 00:00:41,143 Today, am, and I am so excited to welcome Dr. 12 00:00:41,143 --> 00:00:43,393 Nicole Pulliam on the podcast. 13 00:00:43,732 --> 00:00:44,012 Dr. 14 00:00:44,012 --> 00:00:48,682 Pulliam is a tenured graduate level professor, a TEDx speaker, 15 00:00:48,872 --> 00:00:52,542 an executive coach, and the founder and CEO of Real and 16 00:00:52,542 --> 00:00:53,813 Worthy LLC. 17 00:00:54,192 --> 00:00:57,031 With more than 20 years in higher education, spanning 18 00:00:57,031 --> 00:01:00,093 student affairs, academic affairs, and institutional 19 00:01:00,093 --> 00:01:03,593 leadership, she is a sought-after strategic partner 20 00:01:03,612 --> 00:01:07,822 for mid to senior level leaders, faculty, and institutions who 21 00:01:07,822 --> 00:01:09,623 are ready to do the real work. 22 00:01:10,332 --> 00:01:14,623 approach is identity affirming, strength-based, and grounded in 23 00:01:14,623 --> 00:01:19,552 one belief: equity isn't an initiative, it's the foundation 24 00:01:19,582 --> 00:01:22,283 of effective, sustainable leadership. 25 00:01:23,343 --> 00:01:26,322 Pulliam, thank you so much for coming on the Joyfully 26 00:01:26,322 --> 00:01:27,683 Unstoppable podcast. 27 00:01:28,317 --> 00:01:29,388 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Thank you so much. 28 00:01:29,418 --> 00:01:33,507 I'm so excited to be here with you, and before we started 29 00:01:33,507 --> 00:01:36,567 recording, we just mentioned we just met, what, this past 30 00:01:36,567 --> 00:01:37,947 February at, 31 00:01:38,222 --> 00:01:38,513 Rebecca Hamm: That's 32 00:01:38,638 --> 00:01:40,567 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: a conference in DC where I had a 33 00:01:40,567 --> 00:01:43,308 chan- chance to participate in your workshop. 34 00:01:43,347 --> 00:01:47,347 And lo and behold, I'm also a coach, and th- this is how these 35 00:01:47,358 --> 00:01:47,897 things go. 36 00:01:47,977 --> 00:01:48,968 We build community. 37 00:01:48,987 --> 00:01:53,528 So I'm so happy to be here with you, um, and to talk to your 38 00:01:53,528 --> 00:01:54,317 audience today 39 00:01:54,638 --> 00:01:54,959 Rebecca Hamm: Yeah. 40 00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:58,539 Well, Nicole, I tell you, your workshop in February was 41 00:01:58,759 --> 00:01:59,549 phenomenal. 42 00:01:59,549 --> 00:02:03,498 I got so much value out of it, and I knew I wanted you to talk, 43 00:02:03,828 --> 00:02:07,558 uh, to my audience, but timing is everything, and I know you 44 00:02:07,558 --> 00:02:10,639 are a busy woman with a lot of leadership responsibilities. 45 00:02:11,448 --> 00:02:15,388 I don't know about you, summer has not calmed down for me much, 46 00:02:15,578 --> 00:02:18,448 but I'm so grateful that you've made the time today for us to 47 00:02:18,448 --> 00:02:18,918 talk. 48 00:02:19,348 --> 00:02:21,608 And- Thank you I wanna just get into it. 49 00:02:21,609 --> 00:02:23,838 Let's just jump in the deep end of the pool. 50 00:02:24,258 --> 00:02:27,979 You say that your work is built on a counter-narrative, that the 51 00:02:27,979 --> 00:02:32,118 self-doubt that women feel in leadership isn't a character 52 00:02:32,118 --> 00:02:32,588 flaw. 53 00:02:33,429 --> 00:02:36,868 what happens when you lead in a system that was never designed 54 00:02:36,908 --> 00:02:38,288 with women in mind. 55 00:02:38,868 --> 00:02:41,109 Can you tell the listeners what you mean by that? 56 00:02:41,188 --> 00:02:44,229 How, how does the system prompt self-doubt? 57 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:45,379 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes. 58 00:02:46,030 --> 00:02:49,669 So I love that this is the first question because, you know, when 59 00:02:49,669 --> 00:02:55,189 I look back on my twenty-plus career in higher ed, um, you 60 00:02:55,189 --> 00:02:57,939 know, on, again, the student affairs side, the academic 61 00:02:57,939 --> 00:03:01,280 affairs side, my coaching role, and all of the roles, and just 62 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,789 sort of navigating life as a woman, but also, and I'll get 63 00:03:04,789 --> 00:03:07,650 into, you know, for me, navigating the world and my 64 00:03:07,650 --> 00:03:13,729 career as a woman of color, um, what I've learned over the years 65 00:03:14,310 --> 00:03:19,969 is that this whole idea that we call imposter syndrome, and I'm 66 00:03:19,979 --> 00:03:25,050 putting that in quotes for a reason, is actually a fallacy. 67 00:03:25,646 --> 00:03:25,657 Rebecca Hamm: Hmm. 68 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,560 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: because the idea of imposter syndrome, 69 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,900 and if we really pick that apart, the problem with that 70 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:38,139 narrative is that there is something that is wrong with us, 71 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:39,439 right? 72 00:03:39,439 --> 00:03:43,330 We start to look within ourselves because the feelings 73 00:03:43,389 --> 00:03:48,319 that exist when women say,"I feel like an imposter, I'm 74 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:51,919 experiencing imposter syndrome," those feelings are real. 75 00:03:52,319 --> 00:03:57,639 However, where the imposter syndrome narrative, the dominant 76 00:03:57,699 --> 00:04:01,379 narrative currently, especially for women, and then you add 77 00:04:01,409 --> 00:04:06,240 other racial and ethnic identities onto that, is that no 78 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,849 one is talking about the ways that the systems in which we're 79 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:16,139 operating are actually perpetuating or adding or, in 80 00:04:16,139 --> 00:04:20,699 many ways, at fault for the very feelings that we are feeling. 81 00:04:21,189 --> 00:04:25,480 So oftentimes, the dominant narrative is, you know,"Let me 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,339 go take another workshop," or, "Let me..." Now, I'm not saying 83 00:04:29,339 --> 00:04:32,029 don't go and work with a coach, 'cause coaching is important, 84 00:04:32,269 --> 00:04:35,439 but maybe I need this or maybe I need that. 85 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,550 And what I've found over the years, both from experiencing it 86 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,879 myself, but specifically starting to dig into the 87 00:04:42,879 --> 00:04:46,350 research, right now I'm looking at my calendar, over the past 88 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:48,329 six years, twenty-twenty... 89 00:04:48,350 --> 00:04:52,180 Twenty-nineteen, actually, I started to dig into this whole 90 00:04:52,199 --> 00:04:56,040 imposter syndrome research because the more conferences I 91 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,730 attended and the more women I spoke with and mentored, and as 92 00:05:00,730 --> 00:05:05,009 I was navigating my own life, I'm like,"Let me-- let's dig 93 00:05:05,009 --> 00:05:05,459 into this. 94 00:05:05,470 --> 00:05:08,959 Like, what is actually happening?" Fast-forward, I wind 95 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:13,237 up- Um, getting a grant to do this really cool study in twenty 96 00:05:13,237 --> 00:05:14,598 nineteen, twenty twenty. 97 00:05:14,687 --> 00:05:17,387 What else was going on in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty? 98 00:05:17,757 --> 00:05:18,668 The pandemic. 99 00:05:18,848 --> 00:05:22,437 I also had my second baby, so there was a whole lot going on. 100 00:05:22,728 --> 00:05:27,517 But I got my hands on all of the literature that was rooted or 101 00:05:27,517 --> 00:05:31,028 sort of, um, had anything to do with imposter syndrome. 102 00:05:31,108 --> 00:05:35,557 And what I found was that imposter syndrome was 103 00:05:35,557 --> 00:05:36,278 actually... 104 00:05:36,307 --> 00:05:41,177 that term was actually, um, not syndrome when it was first 105 00:05:41,177 --> 00:05:41,617 formed. 106 00:05:41,658 --> 00:05:46,278 It was based on the work of two psychologists back in the late 107 00:05:46,278 --> 00:05:47,348 eighties, Dr. 108 00:05:47,348 --> 00:05:48,908 Pauline Clance and Dr. 109 00:05:48,908 --> 00:05:53,288 Suzanne Imes, who did this really cool study with women, 110 00:05:53,447 --> 00:05:56,987 sort of middle-aged, sort of mid-level professional women. 111 00:05:57,367 --> 00:06:01,278 Um, and they called it the imposter phenomenon, meaning 112 00:06:01,637 --> 00:06:05,668 something's going on with these high-achieving women that no 113 00:06:05,668 --> 00:06:09,947 matter how many degrees and how many accolades and how many 114 00:06:09,947 --> 00:06:13,848 awards, they still felt like they weren't enough. 115 00:06:14,108 --> 00:06:18,627 They still, you know, attributed success to lots of other people. 116 00:06:18,668 --> 00:06:22,437 So I did some research, but I had a-- this really cool 117 00:06:22,437 --> 00:06:25,108 opportunity to speak with Dr. 118 00:06:25,108 --> 00:06:29,538 Pauline Clance, um, because I, I needed her permission to use 119 00:06:29,538 --> 00:06:32,418 this imposter phenomenon scale for my study. 120 00:06:32,968 --> 00:06:36,137 I had no idea how to reach her, but it said in order to use this 121 00:06:36,137 --> 00:06:38,088 scale, you have to get permission. 122 00:06:38,817 --> 00:06:40,867 So she took my phone call. 123 00:06:40,898 --> 00:06:42,588 Um, she was lovely. 124 00:06:42,728 --> 00:06:46,148 Um, she was, you know, uh, older, I believe, you know, 125 00:06:46,158 --> 00:06:47,187 seventies, eighties. 126 00:06:47,187 --> 00:06:50,098 And first of all, she said, "Thank you so much for, for 127 00:06:50,098 --> 00:06:55,627 using my scale." My study was also looking at the imposter 128 00:06:55,627 --> 00:06:58,992 phenomenon with first-generation, Black and 129 00:06:58,992 --> 00:07:01,692 Latinx students, and I'll say a little bit more about that 130 00:07:01,692 --> 00:07:06,973 because all of my work primarily is focused on, um, the first gen 131 00:07:06,973 --> 00:07:08,843 and sort of looking at race and ethnicity. 132 00:07:08,992 --> 00:07:12,862 So she said thank you because her original-- their original 133 00:07:12,862 --> 00:07:15,973 research did not account for race or ethnicity. 134 00:07:16,182 --> 00:07:20,668 They only accounted for gender But the most important thing she 135 00:07:20,668 --> 00:07:24,209 said, which leads me to the counter-narrative work that I've 136 00:07:24,209 --> 00:07:28,959 been doing, is she said,"When you write this up in whatever 137 00:07:28,968 --> 00:07:32,848 journals you're going to seek publication in, please do not 138 00:07:32,848 --> 00:07:37,569 call it imposter syndrome, because we never called it that, 139 00:07:37,759 --> 00:07:42,559 and that term is problematic because it places the blame on 140 00:07:42,869 --> 00:07:47,649 us." And there was something about that statement coming from 141 00:07:47,649 --> 00:07:54,178 the original researcher that really just lit a fire in me to 142 00:07:54,189 --> 00:07:59,098 start doing work and workshops and research and centering my 143 00:07:59,139 --> 00:08:04,478 coaching years later on shifting that narrative and moving away 144 00:08:04,499 --> 00:08:08,178 from the, the, the problem was us, right? 145 00:08:08,519 --> 00:08:13,369 What that means for higher ed or any organization is that we're 146 00:08:13,369 --> 00:08:15,869 looking at this at the systems level. 147 00:08:15,899 --> 00:08:17,399 We're actually looking at... 148 00:08:17,399 --> 00:08:21,209 Now there's some new body of research, um, that looks at 149 00:08:21,278 --> 00:08:25,588 imposterization, not imposter syndrome. 150 00:08:25,869 --> 00:08:32,158 Imposterization is about taking a look at the systems, the 151 00:08:32,158 --> 00:08:37,219 people that make up the systems, um, and how the policies, the 152 00:08:37,229 --> 00:08:42,068 practices, the cultures that are built within institutions, and 153 00:08:42,068 --> 00:08:47,769 not just within higher ed, but all institutions, and how the 154 00:08:47,778 --> 00:08:51,349 cultures, the pract- all of that lead to feelings of 155 00:08:53,078 --> 00:08:54,938 imposterization or imposter feelings. 156 00:08:54,948 --> 00:08:59,109 So it's sort of, I like to call it, and the title of my TED Talk 157 00:08:59,109 --> 00:09:01,749 was actually Remixing The Narrative, right? 158 00:09:01,749 --> 00:09:03,048 We're flipping the script. 159 00:09:03,339 --> 00:09:07,818 So we're still talking about it, but we're reversing the way 160 00:09:07,818 --> 00:09:08,798 we're looking at it. 161 00:09:08,818 --> 00:09:12,979 So the counter-narrative is we're not imposters. 162 00:09:13,428 --> 00:09:17,938 Women, women of color, we are not imposters, which actually 163 00:09:17,938 --> 00:09:22,158 led to me naming my company that I built three years ago, Real 164 00:09:22,158 --> 00:09:24,928 and Worthy, real being we're not imposters. 165 00:09:24,938 --> 00:09:29,908 We are real, and we are worthy of everything we've achieved, 166 00:09:29,979 --> 00:09:31,558 everything we've earned. 167 00:09:31,989 --> 00:09:36,818 Um, so my research and my work has shifted significantly over 168 00:09:36,818 --> 00:09:41,629 the past six years because of this work, because the, the, 169 00:09:41,698 --> 00:09:48,438 the, the more I dig into this, the more problematic I see that 170 00:09:48,438 --> 00:09:49,708 that sort of term is. 171 00:09:49,719 --> 00:09:53,509 So the, the dominant narrative is something's wrong with us. 172 00:09:53,558 --> 00:09:56,028 Women are struggling, and yeah, we are struggling. 173 00:09:57,389 --> 00:10:01,369 However, where we stop is why, 174 00:10:01,832 --> 00:10:02,263 Rebecca Hamm: Yeah. 175 00:10:02,293 --> 00:10:02,363 I 176 00:10:02,509 --> 00:10:02,528 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: And it- 177 00:10:02,562 --> 00:10:04,523 Rebecca Hamm: this is so important 178 00:10:05,009 --> 00:10:05,578 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yeah 179 00:10:05,743 --> 00:10:07,623 Rebecca Hamm: and I've seen this in the clients that I've 180 00:10:07,653 --> 00:10:08,312 coached, 181 00:10:08,528 --> 00:10:08,538 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 182 00:10:08,572 --> 00:10:10,692 Rebecca Hamm: there is this assumption that something is 183 00:10:10,692 --> 00:10:11,552 wrong with me. 184 00:10:11,921 --> 00:10:12,341 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yep 185 00:10:12,523 --> 00:10:19,043 Rebecca Hamm: if I can be frank, the, the marketing that is out 186 00:10:19,043 --> 00:10:21,993 there in support of women, either in leadership roles or 187 00:10:21,993 --> 00:10:25,602 just in general, it is that pain-point marketing and focus 188 00:10:25,602 --> 00:10:28,842 on what's wrong and what's broken, and you the entrepreneur 189 00:10:28,842 --> 00:10:31,363 brings a solution to the problem, or you're gonna fix 190 00:10:31,363 --> 00:10:31,572 what's 191 00:10:31,664 --> 00:10:31,674 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 192 00:10:32,883 --> 00:10:35,793 Rebecca Hamm: And, y- you know, I'm new to the entrepreneur 193 00:10:35,793 --> 00:10:38,462 world, and so I'm not gonna say I never marketed in that way 194 00:10:38,462 --> 00:10:40,133 because I didn't, that's what people told 195 00:10:40,201 --> 00:10:40,671 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: But we're sold 196 00:10:40,702 --> 00:10:43,013 Rebecca Hamm: was f- I was figuring it out, and I, it just 197 00:10:43,033 --> 00:10:44,253 gives me the ick. 198 00:10:44,352 --> 00:10:48,552 And so I have tried to really change the way that I approach 199 00:10:48,552 --> 00:10:51,942 my conversations with women over the past several months, because 200 00:10:52,062 --> 00:10:52,863 there ain't nothing wrong. 201 00:10:52,873 --> 00:10:53,883 You ain't broken. 202 00:10:54,123 --> 00:10:54,913 Nothing is wrong. 203 00:10:54,962 --> 00:10:56,673 We all have those negative thoughts. 204 00:10:56,673 --> 00:10:57,082 We all 205 00:10:57,150 --> 00:10:57,390 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yeah 206 00:10:57,643 --> 00:11:01,023 Rebecca Hamm: rooms wondering and feeling like maybe we aren't 207 00:11:01,023 --> 00:11:03,783 good enough or we don't belong, and you have given such a 208 00:11:03,793 --> 00:11:07,842 thoughtful contextualization of where those thoughts are 209 00:11:07,842 --> 00:11:12,192 actually coming from, that it is not anything is wrong with any 210 00:11:12,192 --> 00:11:14,883 one woman, that she can't hack it or she's not good enough, 211 00:11:15,184 --> 00:11:15,485 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes 212 00:11:15,712 --> 00:11:19,472 Rebecca Hamm: that the systems in place in the organization and 213 00:11:19,633 --> 00:11:24,572 the patterns in place in different organizations create 214 00:11:24,623 --> 00:11:28,602 expectations that just don't fit. 215 00:11:28,692 --> 00:11:32,432 It's a square peg, round hole situation is what I'm hearing. 216 00:11:32,452 --> 00:11:34,633 Is that, is that a fair way to say it? 217 00:11:35,057 --> 00:11:35,506 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes. 218 00:11:35,886 --> 00:11:39,456 In, in some ways, you know, the, the, the, the last thing that 219 00:11:39,456 --> 00:11:43,466 I'll say about this in terms of the counter-narrative is, you 220 00:11:43,466 --> 00:11:45,527 know, I can't speak for all industries, right? 221 00:11:45,547 --> 00:11:47,576 Like my background, and I know your background, we have a 222 00:11:47,576 --> 00:11:50,506 shared background in higher education, and higher education 223 00:11:50,527 --> 00:11:51,496 is its own system. 224 00:11:51,908 --> 00:11:52,178 Rebecca Hamm: Mm-hmm. 225 00:11:52,197 --> 00:11:54,336 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: any system, um, and again, we'll 226 00:11:54,336 --> 00:11:57,927 just take a look at higher education, is simply a microcosm 227 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:02,086 of our society, you know, of, of, of our, the history of our 228 00:12:02,086 --> 00:12:03,206 country, right? 229 00:12:03,216 --> 00:12:10,956 So, you know, we oftentimes in education think that educational 230 00:12:10,976 --> 00:12:17,787 spaces are, um, don't necessarily have the same issues 231 00:12:17,787 --> 00:12:21,777 that are going on in the rest of the world, like all of the isms, 232 00:12:22,206 --> 00:12:22,657 right? 233 00:12:22,756 --> 00:12:23,626 All of them. 234 00:12:23,677 --> 00:12:25,606 Um, and that is just not true. 235 00:12:25,667 --> 00:12:28,167 It is a microcosm of our society. 236 00:12:28,537 --> 00:12:29,096 You know? 237 00:12:29,106 --> 00:12:33,856 So when I think about the, um, counter-narrative, there's 238 00:12:33,856 --> 00:12:37,067 really two ways to think about this, and I think, you know, you 239 00:12:37,067 --> 00:12:42,147 would appreciate this having been in senior level roles, um, 240 00:12:42,187 --> 00:12:46,297 in higher ed, and now being a coach and consultant too, is 241 00:12:46,317 --> 00:12:51,256 that the coaching piece is really about, you know, how do 242 00:12:51,256 --> 00:12:53,976 we help our clients feel... 243 00:12:53,986 --> 00:12:57,106 Like, for me, I'm always like, how do I help my clients feel 244 00:12:57,466 --> 00:13:01,147 and believe that they, that regardless of what's going on 245 00:13:01,226 --> 00:13:06,017 within the system, that they still and will always have power 246 00:13:06,027 --> 00:13:09,346 and agency over their lives, right? 247 00:13:09,427 --> 00:13:11,246 So that's the coaching component. 248 00:13:11,307 --> 00:13:15,567 It's we're not ignoring the systems that they're operating 249 00:13:15,567 --> 00:13:19,677 within, but ultimately it comes down to self as well, right? 250 00:13:19,677 --> 00:13:22,876 Because we can't coach and say, "You're not the problem, the 251 00:13:22,876 --> 00:13:25,917 system is." What do we do with that then, right? 252 00:13:26,047 --> 00:13:27,866 So it is about strategy. 253 00:13:28,346 --> 00:13:32,167 However, the other piece to this and, you know, the other work 254 00:13:32,177 --> 00:13:36,067 that I do working with organizations and the messaging 255 00:13:36,067 --> 00:13:40,356 that I try to get across in my writing is that there needs to 256 00:13:40,366 --> 00:13:46,267 be conversations about accountability for institutions, 257 00:13:46,297 --> 00:13:51,317 for folks who hold positional power, um, because that's just 258 00:13:51,317 --> 00:13:52,697 the reality of it, right? 259 00:13:52,697 --> 00:13:56,817 So if you want, and I know we'll get into this next, if you want 260 00:13:56,817 --> 00:14:03,557 an organization that is truly operating well, right, then 261 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:07,047 these are things that have to be addressed. 262 00:14:07,076 --> 00:14:12,376 We can't work on problems if we fail to acknowledge the context, 263 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:13,267 right? 264 00:14:13,267 --> 00:14:13,576 Yeah. 265 00:14:13,576 --> 00:14:16,417 So that's, that's the other part of the counter-narrative. 266 00:14:16,417 --> 00:14:21,256 So it's the we are not imposters, but also, you know, 267 00:14:21,267 --> 00:14:24,657 let's look at the systems and, and we have to be willing to 268 00:14:24,677 --> 00:14:27,971 look at them in order to move forward and make sure that our 269 00:14:27,971 --> 00:14:29,311 organizations are well. 270 00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:30,360 Rebecca Hamm: And 271 00:14:30,667 --> 00:14:30,677 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 272 00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:36,350 Rebecca Hamm: let's, let's have that chat This, uh, as I am 273 00:14:36,350 --> 00:14:38,639 understanding this, this is in the context of equity-centered 274 00:14:38,639 --> 00:14:39,220 leadership, 275 00:14:39,626 --> 00:14:39,937 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yep. 276 00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:40,049 Rebecca Hamm: is 277 00:14:40,366 --> 00:14:40,667 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yep 278 00:14:40,919 --> 00:14:45,149 Rebecca Hamm: an important part of building healthy systems, and 279 00:14:45,149 --> 00:14:49,320 we have spoken so far about, um, the gender 280 00:14:49,482 --> 00:14:49,493 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 281 00:14:50,179 --> 00:14:50,590 Rebecca Hamm: We've talked 282 00:14:50,643 --> 00:14:53,062 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 283 00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:53,929 Rebecca Hamm: this in June. 284 00:14:53,929 --> 00:14:56,179 It's LGBTQ plus month. 285 00:14:56,549 --> 00:15:02,259 Um, there is also the gender identity slice or the, the 286 00:15:02,259 --> 00:15:03,470 sexual orientation slice. 287 00:15:03,889 --> 00:15:08,039 And so as someone who has dedicated real time to studying 288 00:15:08,039 --> 00:15:10,960 these trends, talk to us, what are you seeing? 289 00:15:10,970 --> 00:15:12,789 What are the trends out there? 290 00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:17,720 And, um, for listeners who maybe have been seeing a whole lot of 291 00:15:17,730 --> 00:15:21,210 negative trends lately, is there any light at the end of the 292 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:21,659 tunnel? 293 00:15:21,659 --> 00:15:24,070 Are there any bright spots that you can highlight for us? 294 00:15:26,712 --> 00:15:28,033 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: I would say... 295 00:15:28,432 --> 00:15:30,153 So the, the optimist in... 296 00:15:30,163 --> 00:15:31,793 I'm a realist and I'm an optimist. 297 00:15:31,822 --> 00:15:36,153 The optimist in me says, yes, there, there will always be 298 00:15:36,163 --> 00:15:36,822 bright spots. 299 00:15:37,773 --> 00:15:42,163 Um, however, we- it probably doesn't feel that way right now 300 00:15:42,163 --> 00:15:43,633 for a lot of people. 301 00:15:43,682 --> 00:15:47,472 Maybe not everyone, but for a lot of people, particularly like 302 00:15:47,472 --> 00:15:51,602 the clients who I tend to work with, they're not feeling like 303 00:15:51,602 --> 00:15:52,472 there's a bright spot. 304 00:15:52,533 --> 00:15:54,793 However, and again, I'm... 305 00:15:54,832 --> 00:15:57,932 I think this is across industry, but I will continue to give 306 00:15:57,932 --> 00:16:05,613 examples within higher ed, is that, you know, we, we saw what 307 00:16:05,623 --> 00:16:11,263 happened around 2020 after the murdering of George Floyd and 308 00:16:11,493 --> 00:16:15,013 the pandemic, and everyone was home paying attention to things 309 00:16:15,013 --> 00:16:19,592 that always existed, but they were now at the forefront. 310 00:16:19,682 --> 00:16:24,692 And we saw a trend in many industries, but again, 311 00:16:24,702 --> 00:16:28,732 specifically looking at higher ed, where it appeared as if 312 00:16:28,743 --> 00:16:33,993 higher ed was finally willing to have some difficult 313 00:16:33,993 --> 00:16:38,773 conversations about inequity, about, you know, as it relates 314 00:16:38,773 --> 00:16:42,982 to race, a- again, at that point, but really all 315 00:16:43,003 --> 00:16:47,393 identities, and really taking a hard look to s- to ask 316 00:16:47,413 --> 00:16:53,023 themselves, ask ourselves,"Are we doing our students, our 317 00:16:53,023 --> 00:16:55,972 faculty, our staff, our administrators well? 318 00:16:55,993 --> 00:17:01,528 Are we practicing?" So we saw Lots of diversity statements 319 00:17:01,538 --> 00:17:06,798 being created and plastered all over websites, and we saw 320 00:17:07,148 --> 00:17:12,308 divisions and departments and people hired into these equity, 321 00:17:12,338 --> 00:17:16,669 diversity, whatever you wanna call it, roles, many of which 322 00:17:16,729 --> 00:17:19,419 tended to be people of color. 323 00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:22,429 Um, we saw all of these things happening, right? 324 00:17:22,429 --> 00:17:24,179 So th- that was the trend. 325 00:17:24,929 --> 00:17:29,709 And as with any trend, um, that is directly impacted by what's 326 00:17:29,709 --> 00:17:34,598 happening in our society and in our country, we saw the pendulum 327 00:17:34,798 --> 00:17:39,118 s- shift all the way this way, and now six years later, the 328 00:17:39,118 --> 00:17:42,209 pendulum has shifted completely opposite. 329 00:17:42,548 --> 00:17:46,729 So what we're seeing now is everything that was done in 330 00:17:46,729 --> 00:17:51,239 2020, in many ways, being dismantled. 331 00:17:51,491 --> 00:17:51,511 Rebecca Hamm: Mm-hmm. 332 00:17:51,729 --> 00:17:55,278 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Um, positions no longer, departments 333 00:17:55,288 --> 00:18:00,769 no longer, wording that was once on websites completely vanished. 334 00:18:01,108 --> 00:18:05,078 Um, and then, and, you know, given the political climate in 335 00:18:05,078 --> 00:18:09,729 many ways, especially for state institutions where federal aid 336 00:18:09,739 --> 00:18:13,929 is sort of dangled, many institutions and those in senior 337 00:18:13,929 --> 00:18:18,545 leadership roles feeling forced to make these decisions Some 338 00:18:18,545 --> 00:18:21,694 made them quite easily, which was a, is a whole nother 339 00:18:21,694 --> 00:18:22,664 conversation. 340 00:18:23,134 --> 00:18:24,974 But we now see that happening. 341 00:18:25,394 --> 00:18:30,404 So what that tells me us- you know, from an equity-focused 342 00:18:30,404 --> 00:18:36,414 lens is that, um, or it makes me question, did that work really 343 00:18:36,535 --> 00:18:37,025 matter? 344 00:18:38,093 --> 00:18:43,339 Because in some ways, if it's so easy to undo was that really the 345 00:18:43,339 --> 00:18:46,586 work or was it a performative measure? 346 00:18:46,626 --> 00:18:50,116 And, and again, I think that varies by institution, right? 347 00:18:50,666 --> 00:18:54,326 But I think that's the trend that we see happening right now 348 00:18:54,326 --> 00:19:02,186 and unfortunately, you know, equity has been equated to or 349 00:19:02,186 --> 00:19:04,686 has been, you know, I, I guess I'll say equated to what's going 350 00:19:04,686 --> 00:19:09,346 on in our political climate where really if I had it my way 351 00:19:09,626 --> 00:19:13,207 and if we think about the topic that we're discussing, equity 352 00:19:13,207 --> 00:19:17,227 centered leadership, to me it's just leadership. 353 00:19:17,757 --> 00:19:22,037 To me, it's just the foundation of a good leader. 354 00:19:22,096 --> 00:19:26,297 It's the foundation or should be the foundation of a strong 355 00:19:26,317 --> 00:19:27,386 organization. 356 00:19:27,797 --> 00:19:32,057 Because at the heart of equity, what we're really saying is 357 00:19:32,346 --> 00:19:33,047 does... 358 00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:37,656 Have we taken measures, have we been intentional, and have we 359 00:19:37,656 --> 00:19:40,626 asked ourselves, is everyone that is part of this 360 00:19:40,626 --> 00:19:45,146 organization from, again, higher ed students all the way on up 361 00:19:45,146 --> 00:19:49,757 and senior level admins all the way to, you know, do they have 362 00:19:49,926 --> 00:19:50,906 what they need? 363 00:19:50,987 --> 00:19:56,737 Have they been set up to truly succeed, really, truly? 364 00:19:57,047 --> 00:19:58,517 Have they been set up? 365 00:19:58,747 --> 00:20:03,297 Because most of the time we're not taking those things into 366 00:20:03,297 --> 00:20:03,686 account. 367 00:20:03,696 --> 00:20:07,487 We're assuming that the measures, the policies, the 368 00:20:07,487 --> 00:20:11,386 cultures that we've created are great and that they will be 369 00:20:11,386 --> 00:20:12,606 great for everyone. 370 00:20:13,244 --> 00:20:13,394 Rebecca Hamm: Mm-hmm. 371 00:20:13,576 --> 00:20:16,317 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: So, you know, an, an equity-minded 372 00:20:16,317 --> 00:20:20,086 person would say,"These are great, but are we missing 373 00:20:20,165 --> 00:20:25,375 something Are these great for everyone?" Right? 374 00:20:25,454 --> 00:20:29,075 So, or are they just great, but who's the dominant narrative 375 00:20:29,075 --> 00:20:29,365 here? 376 00:20:29,942 --> 00:20:33,442 Rebecca Hamm: And so help a listener, somebody who is 377 00:20:33,442 --> 00:20:35,762 listening today and they're saying,"Wow, I've never thought 378 00:20:35,762 --> 00:20:36,992 of it like that before." 379 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:37,926 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 380 00:20:38,022 --> 00:20:40,863 Rebecca Hamm: perhaps they're somebody who has benefited from 381 00:20:40,863 --> 00:20:41,923 the dominant narrative 382 00:20:41,931 --> 00:20:42,570 Nicole Pullia: womenleadwell.net 383 00:20:42,762 --> 00:20:45,992 Rebecca Hamm: hasn't been, um, harmed to the extent that 384 00:20:45,992 --> 00:20:47,982 they've become aware of that harm. 385 00:20:48,477 --> 00:20:48,926 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yeah 386 00:20:49,252 --> 00:20:53,002 Rebecca Hamm: listeners be thinking about in terms of 387 00:20:53,042 --> 00:20:55,212 equity as it relates to organizational health? 388 00:20:55,222 --> 00:20:57,343 What sorts of questions should they be asking? 389 00:20:57,663 --> 00:21:01,682 And particularly in light of what you'd said, that in the US 390 00:21:01,702 --> 00:21:04,512 today, this is a really touchy subject, and a lot of 391 00:21:04,512 --> 00:21:08,182 organizations will not entertain the conversation because of fear 392 00:21:08,182 --> 00:21:09,563 of losing federal dollars. 393 00:21:09,792 --> 00:21:10,373 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes 394 00:21:10,393 --> 00:21:14,522 Rebecca Hamm: Do you have any tips for to engage in these 395 00:21:14,522 --> 00:21:20,972 conversations without doors slamming in your face or, um, or 396 00:21:20,982 --> 00:21:24,663 stepping into a, a conversation that, that some of the listeners 397 00:21:24,663 --> 00:21:28,192 of this podcast maybe don't have the power and influence to 398 00:21:28,192 --> 00:21:29,053 really be involved in? 399 00:21:29,505 --> 00:21:30,005 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yeah. 400 00:21:30,063 --> 00:21:30,333 Rebecca Hamm: understand? 401 00:21:30,555 --> 00:21:32,744 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: You know, I, I think, you know, at the 402 00:21:32,785 --> 00:21:36,894 simplest level, here's what I would say, and that is, you 403 00:21:36,894 --> 00:21:41,184 know, I think the question should always be, you know, 404 00:21:41,184 --> 00:21:44,015 again, there's tons of examples, but I'm just thinking of, you 405 00:21:44,015 --> 00:21:46,724 know, I'm on the academic affairs side right now, so, you 406 00:21:46,724 --> 00:21:51,154 know, as you understand, lots of meetings with deans and provosts 407 00:21:51,154 --> 00:21:53,934 and, you know, all of those conversations, you know. 408 00:21:53,934 --> 00:21:57,684 And I think a way to approach the conversation simply is to 409 00:21:57,734 --> 00:22:01,634 ask the question of, you know, well, first of all, like, who, 410 00:22:02,855 --> 00:22:05,694 who was part of these conversations, right? 411 00:22:05,704 --> 00:22:09,654 Like, who was included as part of whatever, let's say it's a 412 00:22:09,654 --> 00:22:11,025 decision that was made. 413 00:22:11,434 --> 00:22:13,954 Who was included, right? 414 00:22:13,984 --> 00:22:15,154 That's number one. 415 00:22:15,505 --> 00:22:19,474 Um, because it- rather than saying,"Who did you not 416 00:22:19,474 --> 00:22:20,664 include," right? 417 00:22:20,674 --> 00:22:22,424 That's sort of a who did you exclude? 418 00:22:22,605 --> 00:22:25,744 The question is who did you include, right? 419 00:22:25,744 --> 00:22:28,775 And I think that's a fair question because that happens to 420 00:22:28,775 --> 00:22:29,105 any of... 421 00:22:29,115 --> 00:22:30,394 We all have blind spots. 422 00:22:30,595 --> 00:22:34,634 We all have implicit biases where we're operating within our 423 00:22:34,634 --> 00:22:39,055 own, you know, lens, and we're busy, and we're bu- you know, so 424 00:22:39,055 --> 00:22:41,095 we're gonna miss some things, right? 425 00:22:41,345 --> 00:22:46,984 So it is to an organization's benefit to include a varied set 426 00:22:47,005 --> 00:22:54,115 of voices, and not just for the purpose of, um, inviting someone 427 00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:57,464 simply because of an identity that they represent. 428 00:22:57,949 --> 00:22:58,409 Rebecca Hamm: Yeah 429 00:22:58,515 --> 00:22:59,075 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: correct. 430 00:22:59,095 --> 00:23:03,345 But that you truly invite them to be part of the conversations. 431 00:23:03,414 --> 00:23:06,934 And sometimes the question is, "Here's what we've come up with. 432 00:23:07,545 --> 00:23:09,755 What are we missing?" Right? 433 00:23:09,835 --> 00:23:11,184 Are we missing something? 434 00:23:11,525 --> 00:23:15,394 And that's the fair question, where it's a, it's not 435 00:23:15,394 --> 00:23:19,414 necessarily a defensive question, but it's a, it's 436 00:23:19,414 --> 00:23:21,375 about, you know, fairness. 437 00:23:21,684 --> 00:23:24,335 Now, as a parent, I don't like when my kids say,"That's not 438 00:23:24,335 --> 00:23:27,714 fair," because my natural instinct is to say,"Life is not 439 00:23:27,714 --> 00:23:29,664 fair." That's true, right? 440 00:23:29,694 --> 00:23:31,865 But when we're talking about equity, really what we're 441 00:23:31,865 --> 00:23:33,325 talking about is fairness. 442 00:23:34,105 --> 00:23:36,365 Was everyone considered? 443 00:23:36,625 --> 00:23:42,984 Can you take measures to ensure that what benefits some doesn't 444 00:23:43,375 --> 00:23:44,924 exclude other, right? 445 00:23:44,924 --> 00:23:47,605 There has to be some conversations there. 446 00:23:48,005 --> 00:23:51,625 Um, so I think the fair question is, you know, can you talk a 447 00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:55,545 little bit about, you know, who was part of this decision-making 448 00:23:55,545 --> 00:23:56,785 process, right? 449 00:23:56,785 --> 00:23:59,174 So sort of simple questions like that. 450 00:23:59,565 --> 00:24:02,949 And I think there's a s- there's a way to do that because if you 451 00:24:02,949 --> 00:24:07,396 say, or if I say you know,"Well, did you have any people of color 452 00:24:07,396 --> 00:24:11,886 on that committee?" The defense automatically goes up. 453 00:24:11,957 --> 00:24:14,537 And also, if the question is yes, that doesn't mean that it 454 00:24:14,537 --> 00:24:16,237 was still an equitable practice, right? 455 00:24:16,967 --> 00:24:23,111 But I think if we simply focus on equity as meaning Was 456 00:24:23,211 --> 00:24:25,921 everyone or as many people considered? 457 00:24:25,941 --> 00:24:29,310 Now, it doesn't mean that we can create this utopia where 458 00:24:29,351 --> 00:24:31,340 everyone will be, you know... 459 00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:35,881 But we have to sort of take a hard look at it, right? 460 00:24:35,881 --> 00:24:43,240 So I think we often overthink equity because media and society 461 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:47,421 has done such a good job of making us fear the conversation, 462 00:24:47,996 --> 00:24:49,125 Rebecca Hamm: Mm-hmm. 463 00:24:49,135 --> 00:24:49,145 Mm-hmm. 464 00:24:49,270 --> 00:24:50,851 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: we rather, we just, we don't say 465 00:24:50,851 --> 00:24:55,817 anything at all, even if we're sensing like,"Hmm, that's really 466 00:24:55,837 --> 00:24:57,387 interesting," right? 467 00:24:57,417 --> 00:25:00,587 And I'm, I'm gonna give a really, really quick example 468 00:25:00,768 --> 00:25:05,357 because I think this probably oversimplifies, but some folks 469 00:25:05,357 --> 00:25:05,948 might get it. 470 00:25:06,307 --> 00:25:11,597 Um, my, part of my, what I'm calling my midlife, uh, play 471 00:25:11,607 --> 00:25:16,458 practice, uh, joy and creativity is, especially now, spring and 472 00:25:16,458 --> 00:25:18,367 summer, I like to garden. 473 00:25:18,708 --> 00:25:20,028 I like to plant. 474 00:25:20,248 --> 00:25:23,107 I've been working on my green thumb over the years. 475 00:25:23,647 --> 00:25:28,157 And I think about, you know, first of all, learning my 476 00:25:28,157 --> 00:25:33,268 environment outside, down to the sides of the house, which are 477 00:25:33,268 --> 00:25:35,807 full sun, which are partial sun, right? 478 00:25:36,018 --> 00:25:39,167 So if, if anyone knows anything about plants, the very first 479 00:25:39,167 --> 00:25:42,887 thing that you need to consider is how much sun do they need, or 480 00:25:42,887 --> 00:25:45,528 do they not like much sun at all, right? 481 00:25:45,938 --> 00:25:49,728 Because when I'm considering what plants to plant, I have to 482 00:25:49,728 --> 00:25:52,788 consider the conditions, right? 483 00:25:52,837 --> 00:25:53,758 The conditions. 484 00:25:53,758 --> 00:25:58,722 I can't just say that flower or that plant is beautiful, or I 485 00:25:58,722 --> 00:26:05,338 want some more color in my yard, and I'm just gonna pick Right? 486 00:26:05,509 --> 00:26:08,878 I have to consider the conditions because if that plant 487 00:26:08,878 --> 00:26:12,929 doesn't thrive, what that means is there's a variety of reasons, 488 00:26:13,028 --> 00:26:17,709 but if I neglected to even consider what that particular 489 00:26:17,709 --> 00:26:22,058 plant needed, the sun, the amount of water, the, the way 490 00:26:22,058 --> 00:26:25,999 you have to plant it, then that means I haven't done my due 491 00:26:26,068 --> 00:26:27,078 dili- diligence. 492 00:26:27,088 --> 00:26:31,648 I haven't necessarily practiced equitably as it relates to my 493 00:26:31,648 --> 00:26:32,759 gardening, right? 494 00:26:32,788 --> 00:26:34,429 Because I'm not even thinking about it. 495 00:26:34,548 --> 00:26:38,088 I'm like,"This is a great..." You know, I got some new mulch, 496 00:26:38,098 --> 00:26:39,229 which I just did. 497 00:26:39,229 --> 00:26:42,749 I got, you know, really great place to plant, but not for 498 00:26:42,749 --> 00:26:43,509 every plant. 499 00:26:43,808 --> 00:26:46,989 There are some things that I wanna plant that just will not 500 00:26:47,229 --> 00:26:51,878 thrive no matter what, or there are different things that I can 501 00:26:51,878 --> 00:26:56,769 do to ensure that this one plant thrives, and the other one I can 502 00:26:56,769 --> 00:26:57,199 kinda... 503 00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:57,838 It's good. 504 00:26:57,898 --> 00:27:01,638 Like, the conditions are already set up to support it, right? 505 00:27:01,898 --> 00:27:04,558 And I'm always thinking about equity, so as I'm gardening, of 506 00:27:04,558 --> 00:27:06,068 course, I'm thinking about it. 507 00:27:06,608 --> 00:27:08,179 But I read something and I... 508 00:27:08,199 --> 00:27:10,808 You know, like, we don't blame the plant, right? 509 00:27:10,808 --> 00:27:13,558 W- we have to look at the conditions. 510 00:27:13,568 --> 00:27:16,148 We have to look at how we treated it. 511 00:27:16,179 --> 00:27:20,259 And, and I think in many ways, that's what we're talking about, 512 00:27:20,628 --> 00:27:21,028 right? 513 00:27:21,038 --> 00:27:23,179 Like, that's what we're talking about, right? 514 00:27:23,179 --> 00:27:26,058 So in gardening, you're like, well, you're not, you know, 515 00:27:26,098 --> 00:27:28,048 equity centered guard- you're just gardening. 516 00:27:28,058 --> 00:27:29,749 Like, that's smart gardening. 517 00:27:30,108 --> 00:27:33,239 To me, that's smart leadership, right? 518 00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:38,068 It ensures that folks feel seen and connected and heard, and 519 00:27:38,078 --> 00:27:42,028 ultimately, people will do better at their roles because 520 00:27:42,028 --> 00:27:46,428 they feel like, and they've been set up to succeed 521 00:27:46,605 --> 00:27:48,714 Rebecca Hamm: Well, and so let me ask about this, because when 522 00:27:48,714 --> 00:27:53,214 you had said that fundamentally equity was about fairness, my 523 00:27:53,214 --> 00:27:57,194 initial thought was, well, I don't, didn't think about equity 524 00:27:57,194 --> 00:27:57,795 that way. 525 00:27:57,835 --> 00:28:00,714 I think equity is about outcomes and performance. 526 00:28:00,842 --> 00:28:01,432 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm 527 00:28:02,115 --> 00:28:04,085 Rebecca Hamm: and this could be a personal, you know, everyone 528 00:28:04,095 --> 00:28:07,904 has different beliefs, but, but the data is pretty compelling 529 00:28:08,265 --> 00:28:13,214 that equity, that diver- diversity specifically has been 530 00:28:13,214 --> 00:28:16,224 really well studied, but I would assume equity would feed into 531 00:28:16,224 --> 00:28:16,684 this, 532 00:28:16,905 --> 00:28:16,915 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 533 00:28:16,974 --> 00:28:20,015 Rebecca Hamm: that the more equitable an organization, the 534 00:28:20,015 --> 00:28:22,664 better performing the individuals in the organization 535 00:28:22,664 --> 00:28:23,494 will be for 536 00:28:23,625 --> 00:28:23,746 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes. 537 00:28:23,746 --> 00:28:23,895 Yeah 538 00:28:24,055 --> 00:28:28,204 Rebecca Hamm: host of reasons related to actual ability to do 539 00:28:28,204 --> 00:28:30,424 their job without friction and roadblocks, 540 00:28:30,761 --> 00:28:31,362 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes 541 00:28:31,765 --> 00:28:34,115 Rebecca Hamm: the, the fulfillment that comes from 542 00:28:34,115 --> 00:28:36,144 knowing that you're being supported and the impact that 543 00:28:36,154 --> 00:28:39,154 has on morale and motivation and output and work ethic. 544 00:28:39,715 --> 00:28:40,006 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yep 545 00:28:40,625 --> 00:28:42,615 Rebecca Hamm: and when you talk about the garden, I hear the 546 00:28:42,615 --> 00:28:43,305 same thing. 547 00:28:43,315 --> 00:28:47,494 Certain plants thrive under certain conditions, and they 548 00:28:47,505 --> 00:28:49,134 falter under others. 549 00:28:49,481 --> 00:28:49,821 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yes 550 00:28:50,184 --> 00:28:53,464 Rebecca Hamm: So tar- and maybe, maybe the answer is, well, it's 551 00:28:53,464 --> 00:28:53,815 both. 552 00:28:53,825 --> 00:28:54,994 It can be about fairness, and 553 00:28:55,049 --> 00:28:55,140 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 554 00:28:55,194 --> 00:28:56,194 Rebecca Hamm: be about performance. 555 00:28:56,224 --> 00:28:56,484 But 556 00:28:56,559 --> 00:28:56,930 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. 557 00:28:57,095 --> 00:28:59,275 Rebecca Hamm: see those two in relationship? 558 00:28:59,275 --> 00:29:00,744 Is it worth pulling them apart? 559 00:29:00,755 --> 00:29:01,775 Do we just say that, 560 00:29:02,218 --> 00:29:04,107 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: No, I think they're directly related. 561 00:29:04,147 --> 00:29:06,288 I think the outcomes... 562 00:29:06,327 --> 00:29:10,498 Now again, the, when, when you're thinking as a, um, as an 563 00:29:10,498 --> 00:29:13,627 administrator and, you know, like that's, that's where we go, 564 00:29:13,657 --> 00:29:18,238 and that's the way that we have to approach this work'cause 565 00:29:18,238 --> 00:29:20,837 there's, it's, it's, it's really both, right? 566 00:29:21,178 --> 00:29:23,347 So as it relates to outcomes, yes. 567 00:29:23,367 --> 00:29:27,428 I mean, for an organization, if you have done your due diligence 568 00:29:27,468 --> 00:29:32,347 and continue to do your due diligence, then you will 569 00:29:32,387 --> 00:29:35,097 absolutely have better outcomes, right? 570 00:29:35,218 --> 00:29:38,373 People will be more likely to stay They will be better at 571 00:29:38,373 --> 00:29:39,153 their roles. 572 00:29:39,163 --> 00:29:40,502 They will produ- right? 573 00:29:40,512 --> 00:29:44,512 So it's, I have, um, I have a book coming out on this very 574 00:29:44,512 --> 00:29:48,923 topic, and one of my authors, um, wrote about and has done 575 00:29:48,932 --> 00:29:53,262 research specifically for senior women, senior leaders. 576 00:29:53,303 --> 00:29:57,053 Um, her work is looking at Black women in senior leadership 577 00:29:57,053 --> 00:29:57,333 roles. 578 00:29:57,343 --> 00:30:01,532 She's at the chief of staff level, and she talks about this 579 00:30:01,613 --> 00:30:07,232 sort of, um, audit, if you will, that she believes organizations 580 00:30:07,242 --> 00:30:12,692 should use to ensure that even before someone is hired into a 581 00:30:12,692 --> 00:30:16,373 role, that you are auditing your organization. 582 00:30:16,373 --> 00:30:19,972 And she came up with different, you know, sort of checkpoints to 583 00:30:19,972 --> 00:30:24,702 ensure that even before someone is hired, they are set up to 584 00:30:24,702 --> 00:30:28,732 succeed internally, but ultimately to produce the 585 00:30:28,732 --> 00:30:32,242 outcomes that you hired them to produce, and to produce them 586 00:30:32,252 --> 00:30:33,893 well, right? 587 00:30:33,932 --> 00:30:34,923 So it's not... 588 00:30:34,932 --> 00:30:39,232 The diversity piece has really been about, and we saw this 589 00:30:39,232 --> 00:30:45,202 happen in 2020 as well, um, lots of folks being hired or, you 590 00:30:45,202 --> 00:30:47,472 know, let's, let's put a person of color, you know. 591 00:30:47,472 --> 00:30:51,272 Like, we lack diversity, so let's hire more Black and Brown 592 00:30:51,272 --> 00:30:56,769 folks But what was happening and still happening is you can hire, 593 00:30:56,788 --> 00:31:01,628 that's the diversity, but the equity is have you done your due 594 00:31:01,628 --> 00:31:05,348 diligence to ensure that those fo- and really everyone. 595 00:31:05,358 --> 00:31:08,898 'Cause when I talk about equity, I'm talking about everyone, not 596 00:31:08,898 --> 00:31:10,648 just people of color, right? 597 00:31:11,088 --> 00:31:13,999 It's for the overall health and wellness for the entire 598 00:31:13,999 --> 00:31:15,068 organization. 599 00:31:15,469 --> 00:31:19,739 But ultimately, there's enough data out there to show you will 600 00:31:19,739 --> 00:31:23,108 absolutely get better, better outcomes if this is the way that 601 00:31:23,108 --> 00:31:24,528 you continue to practice. 602 00:31:24,888 --> 00:31:26,818 So she talks about, her name is Dr. 603 00:31:26,818 --> 00:31:31,419 Kyra Lobins, she talks about it as like equity-centered 604 00:31:31,419 --> 00:31:34,669 leadership is a fiduciary responsibility. 605 00:31:34,719 --> 00:31:40,078 And I'm like,"I love that." It is a fiduciary responsibility 606 00:31:40,078 --> 00:31:41,058 because what happens? 607 00:31:41,108 --> 00:31:43,999 People leaving roles, now you have to refill it, right? 608 00:31:44,019 --> 00:31:46,088 Like, there's money attached to 609 00:31:46,229 --> 00:31:46,838 Rebecca Hamm: Mm-hmm 610 00:31:46,929 --> 00:31:49,179 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: all of these inequitable practices, and 611 00:31:49,179 --> 00:31:52,929 this is the way we need to, to talk about the work to 612 00:31:52,929 --> 00:31:56,219 administrators, right, to board members. 613 00:31:56,219 --> 00:32:00,338 And you know, like the counselor in me, you know, also talks 614 00:32:00,338 --> 00:32:01,699 about, yeah, but... 615 00:32:01,719 --> 00:32:02,848 'Cause people can produce... 616 00:32:02,909 --> 00:32:04,729 Here's the other, the last thing I'll say. 617 00:32:05,259 --> 00:32:10,568 The outcomes can still be produced, so on paper it looks 618 00:32:10,648 --> 00:32:13,659 as if that person is thriving. 619 00:32:14,499 --> 00:32:18,659 But if you talk to them, they will tell you a completely 620 00:32:18,659 --> 00:32:19,739 different story. 621 00:32:20,088 --> 00:32:23,489 So for a lot of us, and you might have your own stories of 622 00:32:23,489 --> 00:32:28,209 like,"Well, yeah, I was, I was kicking butt in my role, 623 00:32:28,409 --> 00:32:31,519 however," fill in the blank, right? 624 00:32:31,568 --> 00:32:34,239 Like, so that's where the coaching component comes in as 625 00:32:34,239 --> 00:32:36,878 well because same thing with students. 626 00:32:36,878 --> 00:32:40,669 Like, when I was doing student research, my students were, you 627 00:32:40,669 --> 00:32:44,989 know, 3.5 and above GPAs, you would think. 628 00:32:44,999 --> 00:32:48,019 And to the university, they retained them, they graduated 629 00:32:48,019 --> 00:32:48,378 them. 630 00:32:48,679 --> 00:32:52,189 So on paper, it looked, and these were, you know, Black and 631 00:32:52,189 --> 00:32:53,749 Latinx students, first gen. 632 00:32:53,778 --> 00:32:58,308 On paper, one would say that those students were thriving 633 00:32:58,858 --> 00:33:01,618 because the grades told one story. 634 00:33:02,019 --> 00:33:07,348 The qualitative researcher in me knows that's not the full story, 635 00:33:07,818 --> 00:33:08,239 right? 636 00:33:08,499 --> 00:33:11,169 So yes, I think it depends who you're talking to. 637 00:33:11,209 --> 00:33:15,189 Unfortunately, and I hate this, but this is true, when you're 638 00:33:15,189 --> 00:33:21,459 talking about making budgetary decisions and you have to focus 639 00:33:21,459 --> 00:33:24,959 on the outcomes and the fiduciary responsibility first, 640 00:33:25,209 --> 00:33:28,479 we can't just go in and say, "Yeah, but this person doesn't 641 00:33:28,479 --> 00:33:31,578 feel like they belong." That's not gonna fly. 642 00:33:31,648 --> 00:33:34,929 It's true, but we have to reframe that, right? 643 00:33:34,929 --> 00:33:38,719 Like, so you, you kinda learn to, to say the same thing, but 644 00:33:38,719 --> 00:33:39,919 in a different way. 645 00:33:39,959 --> 00:33:41,949 Um, but yes, it's both. 646 00:33:42,038 --> 00:33:42,838 Absolutely 647 00:33:43,067 --> 00:33:43,356 Rebecca Hamm: Yeah. 648 00:33:43,366 --> 00:33:43,886 Thank you. 649 00:33:44,707 --> 00:33:47,707 So Nicole, what is one message that you wanna leave with 650 00:33:47,707 --> 00:33:48,567 listeners today? 651 00:33:50,737 --> 00:33:51,446 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Just one. 652 00:33:51,906 --> 00:34:00,623 Um, I think it would be we cannot ensure The health and 653 00:34:00,623 --> 00:34:04,863 wellness of our organizations, or we cannot... 654 00:34:04,913 --> 00:34:08,313 I'm also thinking about, like, even the title of your podcast, 655 00:34:08,322 --> 00:34:10,824 which I love Joyfully Unstoppable, right? 656 00:34:10,844 --> 00:34:17,034 Like, we can't ensure anything, joy, wellness, health, 657 00:34:17,103 --> 00:34:21,963 personally or if we're looking at institutions, unless we are 658 00:34:21,963 --> 00:34:24,414 willing to look at the hard truths. 659 00:34:25,403 --> 00:34:27,684 We have to look at the hard truths. 660 00:34:27,744 --> 00:34:29,983 We cannot move forward. 661 00:34:30,293 --> 00:34:33,123 We--'cause otherwise that's just putting a Band-Aid on it. 662 00:34:33,193 --> 00:34:37,594 If we're willing to do the real work, whether that's personally 663 00:34:37,623 --> 00:34:42,253 for ourselves or whether that's, you know, as an institution, we 664 00:34:42,253 --> 00:34:45,333 have to be willing to look at the truth. 665 00:34:46,074 --> 00:34:48,284 That's the only way forward. 666 00:34:48,344 --> 00:34:51,684 Um, you know, it's like you have to get through the good, bad, 667 00:34:51,684 --> 00:34:55,134 and the ugly before the work begins. 668 00:34:55,487 --> 00:34:55,697 Rebecca Hamm: Mm-hmm. 669 00:34:55,804 --> 00:34:58,224 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: I truly believe that from a personal, 670 00:34:58,264 --> 00:35:00,663 professional, and institutional level 671 00:35:00,777 --> 00:35:02,867 Rebecca Hamm: Yeah, I think that is so important. 672 00:35:03,257 --> 00:35:06,547 And we can not wanna look at that for a whole host of 673 00:35:06,547 --> 00:35:07,228 reasons, 674 00:35:07,231 --> 00:35:08,952 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Oh, it's easy to not look at it. 675 00:35:09,052 --> 00:35:10,251 Eh, I'll look at it later. 676 00:35:10,291 --> 00:35:11,152 Oh, I'll go here. 677 00:35:11,172 --> 00:35:12,112 I'll do this. 678 00:35:13,065 --> 00:35:13,476 Rebecca Hamm: Yeah. 679 00:35:14,052 --> 00:35:14,152 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yeah 680 00:35:14,195 --> 00:35:16,356 Rebecca Hamm: So if someone would like to learn more about 681 00:35:16,356 --> 00:35:19,076 Real and Worthy or maybe work with you directly, how can they 682 00:35:19,076 --> 00:35:19,606 find you? 683 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:20,639 Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.: Yeah. 684 00:35:21,010 --> 00:35:23,000 Um, so I'm very active on LinkedIn. 685 00:35:23,010 --> 00:35:26,150 You can just find me there, Nicole Pulliam, PhD. 686 00:35:26,190 --> 00:35:30,219 Um, my website is my full name, nicolepulliam.com. 687 00:35:30,362 --> 00:35:33,771 um, my website is in the process of being revamped, but it is 688 00:35:33,771 --> 00:35:35,902 still very active right now. 689 00:35:35,931 --> 00:35:39,422 Um, I am active on Instagram, but I tend to do the most work 690 00:35:39,902 --> 00:35:44,452 on LinkedIn Um, so they can find me on either LinkedIn or my 691 00:35:44,452 --> 00:35:44,942 website 692 00:35:45,469 --> 00:35:45,800 Rebecca Hamm: Great. 693 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:46,840 Well, thank you, Dr. 694 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,690 Pulliam, so much for coming on the Joyfully Unstoppable 695 00:35:49,699 --> 00:35:50,389 podcast. 696 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,000 I have learned a ton today, and I know that the listeners have 697 00:35:54,019 --> 00:35:54,630 as well. 698 00:35:55,329 --> 00:35:58,539 Now, if today's episode spoke to you, I would love for you to 699 00:35:58,539 --> 00:35:59,809 share it with a friend. 700 00:35:59,889 --> 00:36:03,469 We need more women leading from alignment, not adrenaline. 701 00:36:03,949 --> 00:36:06,750 And if you haven't already, please make sure to like and 702 00:36:06,750 --> 00:36:09,130 subscribe so you don't miss next week's drop. 703 00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:13,920 Remember, joyful, sustainable, and authentic leadership is 704 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,630 possible, and you deserve to enjoy every minute of it. 705 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,599 Until next time, this is Becky Hamm, and this is Joyfully 706 00:36:22,659 --> 00:36:23,500 Unstoppable.