Closing the Confidence Gap

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Speaker B: Visit your nearby Lowe's on West Redlands Boulevard in Redlands.

Speaker C: You're listening to Leadership Powered by Common Sense with your host, Doug Thorpe. Here's Doug.

Speaker D: Today we're going to dive into pretty much a special episode for the female leaders. But you guys don't, don't tune out. You might want to know some of this stuff and I think it'll be helpful for you. My guest is a lady named Kelly Thompson. She's a TEDx speaker, coach, and many other things in the corporate world in entire life. Kelly, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker D: Yeah. Uh, in the background there is an image of her book Closing the confidence Gap and let's dive right in. What, what inspired that book for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I always wanted to write a book ever since I was a little girl. Like you probably remember, like the prehistoric computers with like black screens and orange letters. You know, I'd be sitting at my parents desk like hacking out a book, you know, when I was 8 years old. But I never knew what was going to be about. And I remember sitting in my boss's office. I spent 14 years in banking, so a lot of my leadership career came in the banking and financial services field. And I remember joking with her, oh, I've always wanted to write a book, but it will never be a leadership book. And you know, anytime you say the word never, the universe is like, ha, uh, you know, it just laughs because at the time and still if you Google best leadership books, you're going to get books like Jack Welch, you know, or Jim Collins who wrote Good to Great because at the time that's who wrote leadership books. So it wasn't really something that I could see myself entering into. Well, fast forward. I exited corporate after working for banking and healthcare technology solutions and consulting companies and started off on my own just doing executive coaching, still wanting to write a book. And you know, I got to the end of 2020 and you know what? That book hadn't written itself. Dang. Was always on my list. So I finally hired someone to help me, which is key. And I thought to myself, well, what would I write about? And you know, as the pandemic kind of, you know, charged on. I was starting to change who I worked with. I, because I grew up as a woman in a male dominated field, I tended to attract that kind of client. And I literally wrote the book that I needed to read in corporate, which is really helping, you know, and um, men have read my book, male CEOs have read my book and found a lot of value in it because I address a lot of the systemic issues that are happening in the corporate environment that honestly I was just blind to when I was in corporate because it's just the way it was. But the thing is, is we have to be aware of the things that are happening systemically for women leaders in the corporate environment. But we're not going to change it overnight. It's just the way it is. And so my book also then addresses, well, given that this is your environment, here are some tools and strategies so that you can lead more confidently within that environment and here are places where you can make an impact. But the thing is, the tools in this book are the same tools I teach to women that I coach and men that I coach. So really anybody who's looking for more clarity and confidence in their leadership or in the rooms that they're in, this book will make sense. And it'll just help you better understand the context of the environment sometimes that women and minorities have to work in. And so that's why I wrote that book. I just wrote the book that I wished I had when I was in corporate America.

Speaker D: You know, the, the confidence issue is such a, uh, compelling discussion because you're right, among women and men who are in leadership roles, there's an inevitable point in time. Maybe not all the time, but at some point you get into a situation and you've got that confidence crisis, the uh, or imposter syndrome as a lot of people talk about. And it's interesting. And what I tend to lean into with my clients who present that for me is, you know, well, let's start with how you're thinking about everything. You know, there's limiting beliefs and those tapes we learned at an early age that play on a continuous loop in our head. So it, it does start with a, um, mindset shift. And I know a lot of people, as soon as you utter the word mindset, they, they roll their eyes and they go, oh no, here we go again. I'm not going to go there. But is that an overlap or common with what you're talking about or.

Speaker B: It is. Well, let me give you an example. So I'm working with A leader right now. And she is a very high potential. The reason why the company wants me to coach her is because she's next in line as a succession plan for her leader. And she's. This is not going to shock any listener. She's super motivated. She's a super high achiever. If people want things done in the organization, guess who they give it to? They give it to. And so when you talk about the scripts that she's been handed, the scripts that she's been handed her whole life is, I have to get things done fast. I have to get things done according to how people want them, because that's how I impress people. And the message is, is when I impress people, good things happen to me. And so she's actually in a state of burnout because when senior leaders hand things to her to get done, she says yes. Because the scripts that she believes is, even if I don't want to do it, if I say yes, I'm going to figure out how to knock it out of the park. And then that gets me gold stars. It gets me promoted. But one of the things that's actually happening is it's actually causing a lot of burnout. It's keeping her deeply in the weeds because two things are at play here. And so when I am coaching a leader, I know I don't only talk about this with the leader, but I talk about it with the leaders. Leaders is number one. She's so focused downward on doing all the things because that's where she's earned all of her gold stars. And it's like that completion bias that dopamine hit she gets from doing. But then the leaders actually co create her stuckness because they have a habit. They're like, oh, I just. I just need this done. And I need this done right. You know what? I'm gonna go to Amanda and I'm gonna have Amanda do it. And they actually co create her stuck in the weeds. Because not only is that the script she's told about yourself, that I'm successful and happy when I'm the doer of all the things and I impress people. But the leaders get that script about her as well. And so to your point, I, yes, I talk to people about mindset work, but a lot of times what I just call it is you have to teach people how to use you in a new way. And the first thing is, is you have to kind of embrace that identity, shift yourself. Like, who do you want to become? And if you want to become this person, how are you going to teach the people around you that identity and how they need to use you in whole new ways and setting boundaries. What are your new types of yeses? What are your new types of no's? And then also the mindset work. Right. Of the beliefs and the stories that we carry of I um, can only be successful if I'm the one doing all the work. And it's, it' a both and to try to um, unlock that.

Speaker D: Yeah. And in the sort of macro corporate model that's out there, we, we do perpetuate that difficulty in the progression because what do we do when we think we need a frontline leader? We look at the team, we pick the sharpest knife, the brightest bulb and say you're the team leader. And the person takes that and says hm, okay, I got recognized for my contribution, I'll double down on my contribution if I want to go again. And in sure enough they might get promoted a second or even a third time. And that to your point, all the leaders around them are if they haven't spoken about a shift that needs to begin to happen, the individual, even though it's an unspoken directive, believes that it's performance based qualities that get them promoted. So they get up to that second or third, maybe even fourth level and they're scrambling for ways to prove that volume execution and that's not what the system really needs. They need them to add to some strategic thinking and, and you know, innovative thinking and some change management and things of that sort of. And if the organization hasn't supported that shift in coaching, training or even being specific about the need, it's never going to happen.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a different side of your brain. It was really interesting. Um, when I was kind of researching this topic, I was pulling together some research that came out of Emory University and what they did was they followed around ER physicians and in a busy ER with the ER physicians would do like many of us would do when we open our desk every morning is they would go and visit the lowest acuity patients first. The less severe basically. Right. Because it was a check. It was a check, a check and a dopamine hit. A check and a dopamine hit. And what would happen is they would save the highest acuity, the most severe patients for last. But what was happening though was those people weren't getting the best care because the physicians brains were tired. They were tired from just all the quick hit things that maybe like a PA or a nurse practitioner could have handled. And then when they needed the brain power for those, like, highest acuity patients, they were exhausted. And this is what I tell a lot of leaders about strategic thinking. A strategic thinking doesn't just happen, right? You know, it's easier for us to go in and check boxes and get dopamine hits because it's something called completion bias, and it's really hard at work. And so for leaders to be strategic and for companies to want their leaders to be strategic, I'm working with an organization right now. The first question I ask is, what time do you have carved out to actually be strategic? Because it's a whole other side of your brain that you can't access when you are running in checking boxes, responding. Responding to fires. It's. What does Kahneman call it? It's a whole different system or level of thinking. So I agree. It's a. Both and.

Speaker D: Yeah. And the good news is it is a learned behavior and a learned habit to add to your leadership toolkit. And, you know, as you were saying that I was thinking, I had a client the other day, we were talking about this, and he said to me, doug, you know, he said, I've got time blocks on my calendar. I've figured that part out. But when that hour comes, I don't even know where to start to do that strategic thinking that I need to do in the focus. So, you know, we had a discussion about, you know, laying that in and coming up with ways that work for them. And the interesting thing is, at least in my experience, everybody's different. And what works for one doesn't always work for the other. You know, I've got clients who are amazing list builders. And I always chuckle when somebody tells me they love lists. And I say to myself, will he ever do anything on the list?

Speaker B: Yeah. Some people confuse thinking with doing. I mean, I'm absolutely one of those people that was a huge blind spot in my own leadership that I had to overcome. It was funny. I was leading HR at a tech company, and the chief sales officer, business, whatever you would call him, came in, and he. He was such a good guy. And I get now that I'm beyond that role, what he was trying to do. But he goes, have you ever read the book the Knowing Doing Trap? I was like, oh, no. Because he knew I loved to read. And he's like, guy, such a great book. And he just walked away. And I was like, okay, I have to go, you know, buy that book. And after I read it, I was like, oh, my God, this book reads like my personal journal. Because you're right. Like, when we make lists, when we're solving problems, when we're editing spreadshee sheets like it's a trap. I call it like procrasta perfecting procrastinar marketing. Sometimes it's procrastinating. It's like I gotta read one more article about that. It feels like you're doing something but you're not. You know, you're not actually taking action, interacting with people and putting the idea out into the world. And that's a huge self coaching question I have to ask myself as a leader. That's one of my biggest, you know, blind spots is you know, am I just sitting here thinking and iterating about this problem or how am I actually putting this problem into the world and allowing other people to engage with it so that they can give me real time feedback? So I'm glad you brought that up because that's a really sneaky trap. I think folks fall into.

Speaker D: It is. And you know, uh, when, when I see people suffering this, it, it is a challenge of how do you be intentional about what you want to get done and what you want to be about. And you know, all of this sort of wraps together. You mentioned the idea of creating the story that you're going to tell other leaders in the company about who and what you are. A deep dive at the end of last year in my own body of work in my coaching. And I did a couple of things with it, but the one I'll talk about here, I did frequently get the question. I, you know, I just don't know that I'm memorable or recognizable in this organization. What can I do to elevate my visibility to, to be on that short list when promotion talk comes up? So I did some analysis with a lot of the coaching data points that I had collected and I came up with a model that has three signals in it. There's uh, a that make up the total story. It's a signal of purpose, strength and presence. And when you really break that down and go to the core of each one of those, you're talking about the why, what and how. And that's a great story. You know, why are we even talking why? Why are we here? You want to know what? That's the strength aspect of career. And the presence is the how. How do you show up? How do you impact others? How do you connect? How do you build relationships? You know, all of that is the, is the how part. And when people that are rising up in their careers focus mainly on the strength element which common thinking Again, you either don't know or you ignore the other two elements. And without all three, you're not going to have a complete story for people to understand.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think too sometimes what I also see leaders is struggle with this. I'm glad you brought this up is they assume their leaders just know. Um, I've worked with this leader for 10 years. He or she should just know that that's what I'm good at or that that's what I want to do. But, uh, I always remind them, they don'. They don't know. Leaders are busy. They got their own boss breathing down their neck. They have their own career goals to worry about. Their inboxes are full. And even with AI, I feel like the world is even noisier. So to your point with your model, what I'm telling folks is how are you being crystal clear with your leader about what you want to do? Because your leader is not thinking about you. So it's not even just like you said, articulating, hey, these are the things that I like to work on. I believe that these are my strengths, but also, like, literally connecting the dots for them. And this is how my strengths positively impact the organization. And when I tell folks, companies really only care about three things. They care about money, which is making it or saving it. They care about risk, reducing it, whether it's client risk, compliance risk, reputational risk, etc. And they care about leading change and innovation so they can stay ahead of the curve. And so you have three buckets that you can connect the dots with, folks, to say, these are my strengths. This is what I love to do. This is how it impacts the organization. And you're right. There's an important third thing that folks and leaders have to consider is am I leading in alignment with my values? Am I showing up in a way that I feel good about that even if something doesn't go right or the meeting gets really tense, I feel good about how I show up. And I am courageous enough to get enough feedback about my performance or watch the tape, watch my zoom meetings, et cetera, that I can validate that I'm actually showing up in the way that I want. But I love your model. And I think that it's not enough just to assume that our leaders know that in today's world, where things are noisy, you have to be crystal clear about communicating that up to your leaders.

Speaker D: I could not agree more. And as you were leaning into that, I remembered a situation. In my consulting days, I was working for a large national Agency, but it was privately held. We landed a contract that turned out to be about a two year engagement that was worth about $90 million. And I was the lead on the ground and we deployed over 750 consultants in this deal. And when it was all said and done, the CEO company owner had been parachuting in on a pretty regular basis just to see what was going on. It was the biggest contract his firm had ever landed. So he was very sensitive to it. And we, uh, he and I had I don't know how many dinners when it was all over, about three months after the fact that he said to me, you know Doug, I've been thinking about it, I really don't know what you do. And I thought, holy crap, you've got to be kidding me. Yeah, you've got to be kidding me. You know what, what did we just do? I just banked $90 million for you and you don't know what I do? You know, it's like you got it.

Speaker B: Powerful self coaching question though. Uh, it's almost like the office space question. What would you say you do here? Like, what a wonderful post it to always have on your desk? Okay. You can call it the Doug coaching question. The office based coaching question is how am I making sure that my leaders could always answer the question? What would you say you do here that they just know? I think that's a great self coaching question. Reminder.

Speaker D: Yeah, I love that scene from that movie. That is. You're spot on. Well, let's get back to the confidence issue. What, um, what are some of the symptomatic things that bubble up for, for people that might be on the verge of that confidence break, but they haven't quite yet identified it accurately?

Speaker B: Yeah. So is what you're asking is what shows up for people who might be struggling with confidence?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: One of the things, a few things, when sometimes folks are really struggling with competence, they get feedback that maybe they come across a little bit cocky. And how this shows up is because there is some self doubt or they show up to meetings with kind of approving energy. They can kind of come to meetings where they take over, they speak the whole time because they're trying to show up and like prove that they either belong and sometimes I get that feedback in coaching, you know, or uh, that's why somebody is in coaching. And one of the things that I have worked on, because I got that feedback early on in my career, I was applying, I was actually, I was a salesperson when I first started and I applied to Be a sales trainer. And since I was a really good sales person, like any good salesperson, I had a little bit of an ego. And so I thought to myself, well, since I'm the best salesperson, that means I'm a shoe in for this sales trainer trainer job, right? Well, evidently I went into my interview, little too much proving energy, I'm the right person, you need to hire me. I didn't get the job and that was an ego blow. And so I went to the hiring manager and I said to her, I was like, hey, just would love some feedback on why to get this job. And she said, gave me some feedback. She goes, do you know the difference between competence and cockiness? And I was like, I think so. And she gave me some of the best feedback I've ever gotten in my career that in fact let me know that maybe I wasn't so clear on the difference. My whole point in telling this story is that cockiness is confidence without curiosity. And so sometimes when I see leaders really show up and really are like the first clue that they're struggling with their confidence is they actually show up a little bit cocky. They're not listening. They're so worried about how other people are going to perceive them that they show up with more of a proving energy. And so I think that really exists on a spectrum because then where I could say, okay, well what would be the total opposite of that? Well, the total opposite of that is the person who might be a really strong worker but just really struggles to speak up and say things in the room. It's the person in the room. In fact, I've coach leaders and their primary feedback from their leader was, hey, I know Doug is really smart and I know Doug has really good answers, but when we sit in meetings, I know he knows the answer and he's not saying anything. And so that's really how I see confidence almost on both ends of the spectrums. It's either there's they lack so much confidence that they show up cocky to compensate, or they lack so much confidence that they just aren't showing up and articulating that unique value that only they can bring to the room. And so depending on sometimes where they end in that spectrum is the intervention that's required.

Speaker D: I love that. And I'm a big advocate of trying to consider things on the spectrum so you can really try to assess and do a self assessment so that you can find the better way that you need. You know, what's going through my mind is the confidence might be the Thing that is driving, but underneath confidence is a kind of a fear, you know, fear that I'm going to be found out or fear that I don't know enough or fear that my lack in whatever area is going to be counted against me. And it's, it's really conquering that fear factor. And I, I had a guest on, on the show probably more than a year ago, and he wrote a book that talks, uh, about the mentally strong leader and what he talks about all book all these things that can impact in a road, your ability to show up as your best self ultimately have different kinds of fear associated with it and the emotional triggers that that launches. So his challenge and thought was it's not a matter of eliminating the fear, but it's building a different relationship with the fear m and accounting for it, but having a different relationship of what it might mean and what it can mean in what you're doing, because you're probably never going to totally eliminate it.

Speaker B: That is like the whole premise of everything that I talk about with confidence. In fact, I have a book from the Buddhist nun in my book, and she says many people think that fearless people have no fear. Actually they have an intimate relationship with fear. And so one of the things that I say in my keynotes actually is a lot of people who write books about confidence or speak about confidence might come across that there's three easy steps to follow to feel more confident. And if you follow these three easy steps, you'll never feel doubt again. I actually disagree. As you know very well, doubt is always going to be there at the edge of your comfort zone. So I tell people my keynotes. When you leave this keynote, I want you to feel doubt because that means you're actually taking action on something that's at the edge of your comfort zone. And so when I'm working with clients, it is never necessarily about feeling more confident. It's about how do you get more comfortable with doubt. How do you get more comfortable sitting in a room with your throat clenching, your stomach on fire? But you know, you need to say this thing and you know, you need to ask that question and how do you say that while also feeling nerves, doubt, imposter feelings. And so I'm, um, working with my clients on a lot of emotion management actually, you know, because confidence is a feeling. But what I also remind them and talk about a lot is there's something very inconvenient in life, and it's this confidence is actually a side effect of taking action. So you have the actions of Confidence come first that you take while you're feeling like a complete awkward, and then you do enough of those and then I'll start to feel confident about this thing. So like, confidence is a side effect of taking action. And you know, I define confidence is the ability to trust yourself and to take action on that. And that goes back to the conversation we were having in the beginning is how are you actually taking action on things while you feel all these weird awkward feelings, you know, because that's how you build real confidence is doing things while also feeling really uncomfortable.

Speaker D: Yeah, you, you raise a great point. And I actually, um, bring that up in a slightly different fashion with a lot of people that I work with because I typically I'm in that mid level, high potential tag and upper leadership echelons and as they're facing new challenges, maybe even new opportunities, new promotions, and they start getting this fear factor, this confidence question and all that. But we'll talk about it a while and then I'll go, okay, let's, let's, let's go back down memory lane a minute. You know, talk to me about your last promotion, the one before this one, you know, not, not this one you're in right now, but the one before it. And you know, the point being, did you feel these things then? Ah, had you overcame them to the point that you've now been recognized and you've been elevated yet again? Uh, the, so the point is, yeah, you're always like, oh yeah, they go, oh, ding ding, ding. You know, and it, you, you realize that process that you, you might be not confident in what you're doing, but you take the action, you do the things that you believe are required and you generate success for it. And that starts to build the confidence. You don't always go into a moment with, with total and supreme confidence.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, you just learn how to, how to get comfortable with doubt. I was interviewing Indra Nooyi, who's the former CEO of Pepsi, and she was talking about in her book, which is an excellent leadership book, it's called My Life in Full. I recommend everyone read it. And she talks about how Motorola was yanking her all around and putting her in different roles. And then she goes to Pepsi and they're putting her all in these different roles. And I was like, Indra, I'm like, you know, leading teams, you know, that you were not familiar with. Like, weren't you just, just nervous, doubtful all the time. She's like, oh yeah. She's like, but you just learned to lead in spite of it and her nonchalant list and answering that question just helped me realize. And now I really pay attention to that when I'm talking to CEOs or leaders of companies or founders or, you know, folks really high up, they've, they've learned to get comfortable with a few things that I think when you really want to get to that upper level, you have to get comfortable with, number one, they're really comfortable with ambiguity. Because guess what? When you're running a company, you are making company decisions because you're looking at your industry and going, well, I think that's the way it's going. I mean, yes, you have your board and you have people you listen to, but they have to be really comfortable with ambiguity because there's nobody telling them what to do. You know, you have to be really comfortable with doubt and you know, all these feelings of, you know, am I doing the right thing? Am I cut out for this, the imposter feelings, like you say. And then I think the third thing that they have to be really uncomfortable or excuse me, really comfortable with, is criticism. Because one of the things I work on a lot with leaders is the higher you rise in an organization, the bigger decisions you're going to make. And when you make bigger decisions, they touch more people. And guess what? People have thoughts on those decisions. And you might not always decide the way you thought that they should decide. And I've decided and I've seen leaders crumble because a handful of people didn't like their decision. But one of the things that you really have to get comfortable, comfortable with is. And that's why I really do a lot of work on confidence, standing in your values, knowing what you stand for. Because you have to start asking yourself questions like, what do I believe in so strongly that I'm willing to endure the criticism? M. You know, what do I believe in so strongly that I'm willing to endure being wrong? Right. What do I believe in so passionately or you know, what mission am I willing to accomplish that I'm willing to endure the doubt and discomfort that's going to come with it. And those are the types of questions I think change. As you accelerate into leadership, there's a lot less certainty and praise and a lot more ambiguity, doubt and critique on what you're doing.

Speaker D: Mhm. Totally agree. And that is why I challenge virtually all of my clients to really sit down and define their own framework of values and beliefs that they want to represent and stand fast for and about. Because if you've never done that Work. If you've just sort of ridden the wave of your career journey, you will get into those moments when ultimately that core belief is being challenged. It's not even about the technical question on the table. But you as a leader, you know your core belief is going to come into challenge. And if you don't even know what it is exactly, you don't know what you stand for. And you've, you've got to establish that work and it becomes an evergreen process. At that point, you know, you need to, you need to routinely and intentionally pull it back out. And, and I tell people, you know, annual makes sense. You, you have a, uh, you know, a birthday and an anniversary date in your calendar. Well, make an anniversary date for this one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Build your framework, think about it, go live it, and then a year from now, look at it again and see if there adjustments and modifications you need to make appropriately. And I'm not saying give up a value, but determine if some way that you're showing up could be improved.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, and I love the visualness of, uh, it. I have a visual that I keep up. You can't see it. It's out here. Because I found that when you keep things visual, always it helps because in those moments where you're challenged, I love the, the framework. It's like, okay, going back to my leadership framework, does this move me closer to the leader I want to become? I think the other thing that leaders get challenged with, and I love your point about revisiting, is when you're a high achieving leader, guess what? People give you stuff, people pull you in different directions. They say, doug, uh, come sit on this committee or be a part of this. And so without even realizing it, sometimes you drift. And so I think that's why it's so important to your point to come back to it quarterly and be like, what feels off, what feels draining to me? What's feeling like dread? Well, maybe. Where have I drifted? What I stand for, My values, my strengths, my skills, my leadership framework. Okay, I need to trim some things. And usually dread and resentment is usually a huge clue that you've drifted from something in some way.

Speaker D: Right? Yeah. Any sense of friction that you've got going on, whether it's demands from above the organization or even demands from below the organization, when those voices are describing a different leadership framework than what you really believe in and want to earnestly present, it's going to cause friction and it's ultimately, uh, sometimes I have people actually do a three circle Venn diagram to, to visually create just that. One circle their framework, one circle the company expectation, the other circle the people expectation. And if, if you don't have a healthy center in there of the overlap, you're, you're probably in a really challenging situation that you might seriously consider some other alternative. The spectrum we talked about, where are you on that spectrum? Are you still a fit with this company or is so much change that.

Speaker B: I love me a good Venn diagram, Doug, I don't think any bad advice has ever come from a Venn diagram. I love it.

Speaker D: Well, Kelly, I think we're about up on time for today. This has been wonderful. Tell people the best way to get in touch with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, the best way to get in touch with me is to go to kellyraythompson.com I'm Kelly with an I R A E. The other place I hang out the Most is on LinkedIn, so you can find me, uh, at LinkedIn. Kellyrae Thompson and I hang out on Instagram too, but I'd love to hear from you. If you have questions or thoughts about the episode, send me a note.

Speaker D: That's great. And as always, folks, we'll have those links in the show notes. So do feel free to, uh, hop down and check things out. I do like to remind you we've got a video version of this show on YouTube, a channel by the same name, Leadership Powered by Common Sense. Check us out there. We've, we've hit episode 500 already and we're continuing to march for the second 500. So join us, uh, over there. Leave us a comment. Let me know if you'd like to hear something else in the way of a topic or a guest. Would love to hear from you. For now, I'm going to sign off, say goodbye, go out there, make it a great day.

Speaker C: You've been listening to Leadership Powered by Common Sense, hosted by Doug Thorpe Douglas. If you would like to know more about the coaching and advisory services he provides, visit dougthorpe. Com.