Leading Through Risk with LaToya Lacey

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So welcome to It's Not all about the Numbers, the leadership podcast that doesn't just focus on the bottom line. Hi, my name is Chris and that is Mike.

Speaker C: Hi, everyone.

Speaker B: And our co host this week is Latoya Lacy, VP Enterprise Risk Management and Insurance from Estee Lauder Companies. Welcome, Latoya.

Speaker A: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Speaker B: As. Glad to see you again as well. You know, we met not so long ago in April in New York. It feels like a lifetime away right now. Um, but I'm sure we'll dig into that. Um, and if you are enjoying what we're doing on It's Not all about the Numbers. Then do, uh, click those five stars, hit subscribe, and we will be in your feed every Tuesday morning. So, um, Mike, I'm gonna try and keep the energy up for the next half an hour or so, but you're gonna have to help me out. Um, how's it. How's your week been?

Speaker C: Well, it's been good. I'm, um, just going to lift the curtain a little bit. So just as we're about to start recording, Chris's Internet went down, so Latoya and I have been having a bit of chat. So I've managed to fill her in on your food poisoning on the way back from New York, the, uh, the My m. Trip out to the Hamptons, all of that. So. So I'm sure I can keep the energy up a little bit.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that road to JFK when you've got a dodgy stomach is not okay. Someone needs to retarmac that road. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker C: Anyway, moving on. So how's my week been? Um, so I think we're on day 13 now of this heat wave that the UK is having, which is. It's a record where there's been no rain anywhere in the UK for something like, for days, which is unheard of. So it's hot, hot, hot. Keeping the. Keeping myself and the family and the dogs cool is a bit of an activity. So that's kind of like the. The background activity getting the dogs out and into the river over the road as possible. In terms of what contact.

Speaker B: I was gonna say. I can relate. I can relate. We've got. We've got the dog at the moment. Um, seems to be half asleep all day and then wakes up at about midnight. Yeah, now you want to walk.

Speaker C: That's for me. And. And work wise, I've been prepping, actually, more than anything else, it feels like, because I'm going to Nigeria Next week to do some, uh, work on a project. So it's been getting all my. All my forms together. The amount of forms you have to fill in, it's unbelievable to go anywhere.

Speaker B: That sounds like fun, though. That's that. Where in Nigeria?

Speaker C: Uh, buja.

Speaker B: Buja. So you flop. Where'd you fly into?

Speaker C: Where do I fly into?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: An airport.

Speaker B: All right, moving on. Latoya saved me from his terrible dad joke. How's. How's your week been?

Speaker A: Uh, well, I guess my week has been interesting. Also, when you mentioned, Mike, about the heat in the uk, I had a little bit of a flashback, um, when I was living in the UK, I was there from 2016 to 2020, and. And there was, like, some. To the GP, the doctor, because I had this rash. I didn't know what it was. I do a lot of traveling. So, like, I got into something. Something's happening, and the doctor just looked at me like I was crazy. Like, it's a heat rash. I had never had a heat rash before in my life, so I didn't even know what that was. So we are having also a bit of a heat wave on the east coast. And I work in New York, I live in Connecticut. And then there's wildfires in Canada. Mike, we're just chatting about that. Um, and so there's. It's a bit smoky here, so just trying to stay, um, cool and breathe some fresh air whenever I can. And on the work front, um, just had a presentation today, so I've been doing a bit of preparation for Women of Power summit that I attended today, and I was on a fireside chat, so, preparing for that. And I'm getting ready for AICPA conference, um, in August. Futures of Finance, um, ah, summit. And so, uh, I'm doing a presentation on enterprise risk management and strategy. So in addition to the day work, I'm actually trying to get my thoughts together about what I'm going to say in a couple of these sessions.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, sounds. Sounds busy. It sounds like the f. The first bit, though, is the heat. Right? So is it abnormally hot where you are? Because we. We were talking to, um, a speaker from, uh, Atlanta a couple of weeks ago, and she was saying, no, these temperatures are normal for them, but I suppose the AC comes in quite a lot there.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard for me to say. I spent most of the day in the office. So when you're in air conditioning, it doesn't feel that bad. It's only when you step outside and you're trying to do that quick walk to Grand Central Station that you really get consumed by the heat. Uh, and the humidity is also a bit intense. So I will say there's times I have to slow down a bit because I usually, you know, walk pretty quickly when I'm going from one place to another. Um, I don't know if it's abnormally hot right now. A few weeks ago, um, when I was out of town, it was, I think the heat index was in the hundreds. Uh, and I think that's a bit abnormal.

Speaker B: Um, for us it's, it sounds it. That's heat rash territory for us Brits, you know, without any air con. And, uh, and if you are running to Grand Central, make sure you dodge those theming drains. Because it's not just for the Hollywood films in the eight, they still exist today, which is baffling if you ask me. But hey, um, brilliant. And, and on the work front, you know, we've obviously dig into it for the rest of the, um, chat today, but I've seen you present and I think they're in for a treat. Um, really good presentation. That I think is where we first met in Poland before New York, and then maybe in London one day. But, um, yeah, I think you're, you're a great presenter and we might dig into that a little bit, uh, as well. So, um, best of luck with that. So my week. Oh my God. Uh, can I just say that I'm exhausted? Can I just say that? Is that okay?

Speaker C: I mean, you've done it, you've done it now. It does feel like we're gonna have to give some therapy for a moment or two.

Speaker B: But no, no, it's not going to get that bad. But I think sometimes, you know, in the spirit of authentic leadership and all that, you know, this is a leadership podcast. It's okay sometimes just to say I'm done, I need to have a holiday and I, uh, will be very soon, but I'm knackered in, in on the work side, very successful, six months, but definitely need to build in some time, uh, on the home front. I, I, One of the other things that I was doing today, just before I came on the pod was sorting out our London flat, um, which we've, we've got a flat in Battersea which, uh, I turned up thinking it was going to be beautiful and ready to rent. Um, and it, and it wasn't. So I quickly had to leg it to the shops, turned it to a painter for half an hour and then, you know, it's now Ready for the market, but, yeah, lots of juggling. Lots of juggling. Um, I'm ready for that holiday, so, uh, let's do it. So what's been happening this week? Um, so, Mike, you've been sort of doing some research. Let's call it research.

Speaker C: LinkedIn research. Yeah, I'm not allowed to call it LinkedIn stalking anymore. So. LinkedIn research. Um, uh, so I think it touches on what you. You were talking about in terms of the Fireside Chat this morning. So I found a post of yours from about a week ago where you were trailing that. You were doing that today. And it was the quote. That was the quote that you put from Alice Walker about the. The most common way people give up their power is by thinking that they don't have any. Just struck a chord. Um, and I just. Just sort of, like, wondered if you just explain why it struck why that strikes a chord with you and sort of how that fits into your belief system.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think why that struck a chord with me is, um. I guess I never really thought about myself as having power. You know, I'm the youngest of six children. I'm the only girl. There's five older brothers, you know, and so when you're growing up and you're the youngest, you have no power authority in the room. And then when you have all brothers, you have no power authority in the room. Uh, and then I just, you know, coming up in my career, you know, most of the time I was the youngest person in the room or the most junior person. And so I didn't, you know, um, you know, think of myself in that way. So when I advanced through my career and. And I came into positions where I did have some authority, I didn't always feel like it. You know, I would still be asking for things as opposed to saying, this is what we need to do. Uh, so the quote of basically giving up your power, uh, by thinking that you don't have any, that really resonated with me. And so the event that I'm at today is Women of Power. And it's talking about owning your power and what that looks like in various corporate settings. So I love that, that, uh, that quote, and it really connected with, like, you know, my own personal, um, experiences. And that's what the conference is about. So it all kind of came together nicely for me when they asked me to. To present at the Fireside Chat.

Speaker C: Ah, that's brilliant. Thank you. And then just. Just sort of one building on that. So now you're in a position of authority how do you ensure or how do you use that knowledge that you've just, you know, the six brothers and the. And that. That experience, how do you use that to sort of help people coming through or people that are working with you or for you to not feel disempowered?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think because I've had that experience of feeling like I didn't have the power or authority that I like to empower others, you know, so, for one thing, because, uh, as Chris was talking about earlier, being tired. I'm tired too. So the more I can empower other people, you know, for one, it's great for. For their confidence, for their leadership, for their development. It also frees up some space. So earlier in my career, I was a little bit. I won't say I was a micromanager, but I, uh, think I just like to know that things are being done and being done correctly. So if somebody else was doing it, I had to be, like, just connected to everything. But I've also worked for leaders that are like that, and it drives me crazy. You know, it's like, you should trust me to do the job you've hired me to do. Um, and so I feel that same way when it comes to my team. I should trust them to do the job that I've hired them to do, and I should be available to support, but I shouldn't, you know, like, take it on. So I think, um, owning that power means empowering others, um, giving them the confidence that, you know, hey, I trust you. You need me, I'm here. Uh, and that's pretty much how I've tried to try to lead.

Speaker B: I have to say, if you are tired as well, then Estee Lauder products are doing something right. Because I think I need a bit. I need a bit of that product at the moment. My. My wrinkle lines are coming through. I'm definitely not fishing.

Speaker C: Fishing for much again.

Speaker B: Unbelievable. You know, we got. We got Hugo Boss hats last time. I mean, come on.

Speaker A: Um, well, I mean, maybe there could be some. Still a lot of advanced night repair in it for you.

Speaker B: Well, look, you know, no commitments, but I have written it down. I love that. I love that statement.

Speaker C: I.

Speaker B: The thing. What went off in my head actually was, uh, an old kind of mentoring phrase that I heard, which is all about sort of mindset and how you think. And it was like, if you think you can do it, you can. If you think you can't, you're probably right. And it's just. It's all about sort of, you Know, perspective on the same situation. Right. But I. But I. Which I totally agree. But I do think, though, that, you know, being part of a large family and maybe feeling like you had seven dads, that's going to.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, emboldened you to try and fix that a little bit. Um, you know, I'm sure they're your biggest, biggest fans, but do you think that shaped you in any way, having seven dads? Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. So actually, I'll say I was six. Cause I had five older brothers, plus my father. So I had six, But. Yeah. So I can only imagine what seven would feel like. But I had six fathers. Uh, but I think it did teach me to be resilient, um, to kind of exercise my power, you know, when I have it. Because I had to fight for a lot of things. I had to fight for, I would even say, like, uh, um, equity. Because there were certain things that my brothers were allowed to do, you know, at a certain age. So. So when I got to that age, I'm like, okay, well, it's time. Like, my brothers all got a car their last year of high school. That was kind of like the rite of passage. You know, you get a car when you. Your last year of high school. I graduated a year early. And so my father was like, no, you know, okay, I don't know if you can have a car now. I said, no. All my brothers got a car their last year of high school. Um, and so I'm looking for my car. It was never about the age. So the fact that I got there a year early shouldn't change the fact that it's my last year of high school. I should get a car, you know, or, like, my brothers all moved to a certain room when they got to be, like, at a certain stage of life, like this kind of almost like a little apartment inside the house. So I wanted to be in that room. So I was always looking at my brothers and what they were doing and saying, okay, I want that. And, uh, sometimes I have to fight for that, you know, because they were being very protective of me. It wasn't that they, you know, wanted to stifle me, but they were always looking at, is this safe? Are you going to be okay? You know? And, uh, I grew up on the south side of Chicago, so there were other concerns that they. That they had. So it was more of a protective nature. But I think the fact that I grew up with, um, you know, always looking to see, okay, well, this is what they did. I think I should be doing that Or I got to fight for this. I got to push for that. It gave me that. That foundation when I went into corporate to say, okay, I have to push for this. I have to fight for my idea. I have to, you know, make sure that, um, I'm getting what I'm supposed to be getting, you know, because there are times where there. There is an inequality. You know, when you're working towards something, you don't get the recognition, you don't get the opportunities. And when I see that, I think I already had the foundation to. To push for it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I. I'm gonna have to go home and apologize to my sister now. I think that she. She had. She had three elder brothers and a dad. Um, I. And I recognize what you're saying. I actually recognize what you're saying. We have an awards every year, you know, Gen Z Fo awards. I was really proud this year that I think 80, 90%, um, of the awards went to women. And, you know, that's through fair judging. Right. That's. There's no bias in that as well. Um, but there was. There was a sort of comment around the fact, you know, we needed more representation, we needed, you know, to have sort of more diversity. I just wonder whether that you're talking at, uh, you know, it's a, uh, the National Black MBE Association. You know, how important is that to you as well? Because it always. I think it still feels like a bit of a taboo.

Speaker A: A table. As far. Far as what? Diversity? Or.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, just. Just diversity and inclusion. And this isn't a political podcast, but I mean, you know, certainly leadership values might have shifted publicly on this as well, which I. I don't agree with.

Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I think there's. It's been a, um, A bit of a, um, I guess a reversal that has happened, you know, more recently. I. I've seen, like, many companies that were pulling back on their. Their diversity programs. Um, I do think it is a bit unfortunate because, you know, the opportunities have to work really hard to get them. You know, I've never gotten a job or an opportunity, you know, because I'm black or because I'm a woman or because of anything else. Right. It's like you have to really. I've been through interviews. That was one job I had. I had, like, 10 interviews, you know, for that job. So if it's about checking a DEI box, you know, there wouldn't be, you know, 10 interviews to prepare for this. It'd be like, okay, you know, she has those qualifications that we need Check. Um, and then when you end those spaces to be able to have an impact, um, you know, your. Whatever box you check is not going to automatically produce an impact. So I still think there's, there's need for, there are needs for these programs, especially when you look at like, the leadership team or you look at, um, um, yeah, maybe your boards, you know, your board of directors. And you don't see the diversity that you see reflected in your consumer base. And you know that there are people with qualifications out there, you know, that could do the job. And it's not about, you know, just giving them an opportunity because they check a box. Um, I think there's still, you know, more that needs to be done. Um, and so how I try to work in that environment is I try to make sure that I'm always bringing my best. You know, I think, you know, it is important to see representation and when you see representation, see it at top notch, top level, you know, so when you see like, and Michelle Obama, there's many Baracks and many Michelles out there, you know, but it's one thing to see them out there and you see them in, like, in excellence. Even if you don't agree with their policies, just how they present themselves, their intellect, you know, those things, like, really resonate with people. So I think it's important to always show up 100% and then, um, you know, help people with their own development. If I see someone, I think they have very strong potential, and it was regardless of, you know, race or ethnicity or anything. If I see somebody have very strong potential, but there's something that they just need to work on. Maybe they need an opportunity, you know, they need exposure. They need something if I can provide them with that something, then that better positions them, um, to be that next, you know, um, uh, vp, next, director, next, you know, whatever. So I think, I think it's an important role that we play.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, I recognize that. And I think, you know, it's definitely about, you know, equal opportunity and, you know, opening the sort of doors to people. But I also want to test, you know, do you think black people see those rooms as their rooms? You know, it's all well and good, us, uh, saying, hey, look, there's an equal opportunity opportunity. You've got a chance to, you know, be part of this room or part of this conference or even win this award. But, you know, do you think that there, there is sometimes a barrier where it's just like, look, this isn't for us, because historically it's been full of people like me. You know, that white, middle class, male businessman.

Speaker A: In my view, I think it depends on the dynamic in the room. So when I enter a room, if I don't see anyone else that looks like me, I don't automatically think, oh, this is not my room, or I shouldn't be in the room. Uh, I may be the first, but I shouldn't be the last. That's pretty much how I look at it. Or maybe I'm the only one in that moment. Maybe I'm not the first. Maybe there was someone before me. But at this moment, uh, I'm the only one in the room. But that dynamic, to me, determines whether that's a room that I want to stay in. So if I am putting out good ideas or good challenges, and the response to those is not what I'm seeing when it comes to the response of my peers in the room, then that gives me a very good sense of whether this is a room that is actually inclusive. Right. Because it could be diverse and not be inclusive. So that, for me is a very important, uh, distinction. I'll just share a quick story. I remember in the early part of my career, there was a senior leader at the company I was working for that asked for me to be a part of, um, a committee. And he told me, I want to shake things up a bit. Now, he didn't tell me at the time what he meant by shake things up a bit. When I got there, I saw what he meant, right. I was the youngest one in the room, and I was the only black person in the room. And I was one of very few women in the room. Right. Um, and so, short version of story, we were talking about how to reach younger people. So finally there was a topic that I felt I could add value. I'm the youngest one in the room. So I made a suggestion, and everybody talked over me, you know, and there was one person in the room who said, wait a minute. I think latoya had a good, good idea. And then when he said that, they said, oh, what did you say? Right? And now I got a chance to repeat it. And now they was like, oh, that is a good idea. Well, why didn't you hear it when I said it the first time? You know, um, but it was just like that one person in the room that was the advocate, you know, that, you know, uh, now kind of amplified my voice because it came from him, like, as long as sponsoring me, like you said, hey, this is a good idea. Let's listen to what she has to say. Then, you know, it became, you know, a bigger conversation. So it's really about, like, how inclusive the room is versus whether the room is, you know, truly diverse or not, in m. My view.

Speaker C: Uh, that's. That's fantastic. That's brilliant. And I was so keen when we met in New York that you came on the podcast, because we had such a good conversation that evening. And you're just really illustrating it here, that kind of, like, empowering leadership that you embody. What we normally do is we kind of like, move. Move away from the topic and find out a bit more about you now. And one of the things from when we were talking New York that was, I found fascinating was the amount of traveling that you've done and places that you've been with work. But I just really wanted to sort of a scratch into that a little bit. But also, what. What drives you to be. How have you kind of, like, moved into this space that you're in. In. In. I'm gonna look at it. Risk management and insurance. How did. How did you get there?

Speaker A: So the. The travel bit first, I think it was mainly because my family didn't travel a lot when I was growing up. We always went to Mississippi or Texas. You know, I'm from Chicago, so we. We. We traveled to the south to visit family. My family is originally from different parts of the South. And, um, when I was in high school, I studied French, uh, because I wanted to go to France as a foreign exchange student. I got a chance to do that when I was 16. And that was my first, like, intern. Big international trip. I've been to Mexico and Canada before. That was my first trip outside of North America. And I was just so fascinated by it because there was so much I learned in my French class. Uh, and now there I was, I was looking at the Eiffel Tower at the Arthur Triomphe. And, you know, I'm actually hearing, you know, French people speak French, not the. The Polish teacher that. That taught us French, you know? You know, and I'm actually hearing French with a French accent and, like, you know, so I was really excited by that. So when I got the opportunity to work in jobs where there was international travel, I told him, you can send me anywhere, anytime. I never refuse a location. And even if it was a location that has some security risk associated with it, they would provide. Company provide for that. Um, and I felt perfectly fine and safe to travel everywhere. And I love to go to different countries, work in those countries, experience the culture. I try to get out of the touristy areas a bit and just, you know, experience something that's authentic. And, um, I think the more I did it, the more I loved it. And it makes the world so much smaller. You know, when you, you can meet somebody and they, you know, I've been, I've been there. You know, you talk a bit about like your experience and, and then they get excited that you've been to their country and you know, and so it was nice. I just really loved, I really enjoyed it. So, so that was really. And then I, I will always add on to the trip. So say the, the companies send me to, you know, you know, one country, I'll look at the map and say, okay, what else is nearby? Can I do a side trip? You know, maybe add a week of vacation and go somewhere else? So I would do those types of things. I got a chance to expose my son to different countries because I got a chance to do all this traveling. And so now that I don't travel like that for work anymore, I still will look at the map and say, okay, where in the world have I not been that I'm interested in traveling to? Um, that once experience. So m. Most recently I've been to, you know, Vietnam, I've been to, um, uh, uh, Indonesia. I went to Bali and Kuala Lumpur and Malaysia. And because I hadn't spent too much time in Asia yet, I only been to India and China. So I spent quite a bit of time traveling through Europe and to South America, to Africa, but Asia, I was a bit light. And then one day I'll tackle Australia, but I'm scared death of spiders. So I haven't gotten over that fear in the kangaroo videos on social media. It kind of scares me a bit. This podcast is sponsored by Generation cfo, the community for progressive accounting and finance leadership in a changing business world. Want to level up your career Gen CFO membership gives you exclusive access to expert insights, events and a thriving community of finance leaders just like you. Search Generation CFO today and be part of the future of finance. So I haven't been to Australia, but I have been to New Zealand. So I love, I love traveling. So that's just a. I, ah, think a passion of mine that developed from my early days and um, traveling to France.

Speaker C: So you mentioned a lot of countries there. What do you think? Which location be the most surprising? You say, oh, I went there on business. If somebody asks you, I think the

Speaker A: most surprising is usually the Seychelles. And when I've mentioned that I've traveled to The Seychelles. And that was for work, you know, that was like, what did you do in the Seychelles? What kind of job did you do there? But during the years that I worked for Diageo, uh, they own say brew, um, and they have a brewery there. And say brew is a local beer in the Seychelles. And when I tell you that was like one of the most beautiful places to get to travel to for work and island hopped a bit, you know, so Mahe is the main island, so that's really where the work was. But then I've gone to Pralin and La Dic and um, one of the last times I was there, I went to Felicite island, uh, which is like this remote island. There's only a resort there. It's not like people like just, you know, go to this island, the yacht from the, um, that, that's part of the resort, um, to that island. Or you have someone that, if you know there, uh, that lives there, that has a yacht can take you. Um, um. But yeah, I just, I just love. It's a beautiful island, very peaceful, very relaxing. I love the fact like on the Saturday, I think they closed their shops early. And I was like, why they're closing so early? It's Saturday, this one, people will be out shopping and someone told me, well, they want to spend time with their family. Don't you want to spend time with your family? And I was like, oh, I love that. Good point.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. There is, uh, you know, something that I've observed as well. You know, obviously you're keen on the personal travel, the business travel, but actually traveling to the US compared to, you know, the uk, um, and we're both linked to accounting institutions. Right. One thing I've noticed in the U.S. is that, ah, everybody's happy to travel. Everybody's happy to jump on a plane. It's an expectation almost that, you know, you will travel for an event or a conference or a meeting in the uk. I think it's fair to say that if it's not within an hour's drive or an hour's commute, you can forget it. And actually I hear people say, you know, oh, I haven't got, you know, I haven't got a meet up near me. And it's like, it's, it's 35 minutes away. Yeah, but I've got to get in the car. You know, the us. The US mentality seems to be so different.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. There's a, uh, organization I recently joined that's focused on, um, helping women get board positions. And um, the first event that we had was in Boston is at Harvard University at Boston. And um, yeah, I took the train out there. I didn't want to drive because I don't like dealing with traffic and I wanted to relax, but I took the train. It was like a three hour, three and a half hour train ride. Um, so it really is nothing. Estee Lauder had something, ah, um, in Philly, you know, so, ah, I think mainly because like the US Is so big. I used to hear a lot about Americans not traveling like outside of the U.S. but when you look at the size of the U.S. just to go from New York to California, you know, that, that's, that's, that's more than like a lot of international flights to go from one side of the country to the other side.

Speaker B: So I'm sure, um, I'm sure they're culturally different as well. So it's not very different. You're seeing the same people.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's very different. East coast, south, you know, the, the West Coast. Very different, you know, cultures and personalities. And so you can get a very diverse experience just within the US you're

Speaker C: almost describing my five hour train trek from Dorset to Manchester last week in Perfect. They're so different. It was so different.

Speaker A: Different.

Speaker C: I'm sorry, um, I'm just gonna, I go back. You mentioned you studied French and then went to France. So, uh, I'm still intrigued by studied French. Ended up doing risk management and insurance. So what was, ah, what was your journey from, like, from, from that point through to getting into doing what you're doing.

Speaker A: So how it started is ironic. I recently met with one of my, um, early managers. So the first part. Well, let me start from the beginning. My degree is in accounting. So I'm a certified public accountant, a certified fraud examiner. So I started off with accounting and I went into Abbott Laboratories at the time and I did a two year rotational program through different parts of finance and accounting and decided through that that I didn't like finance and accounting. I didn't want to do that. All right, so it was a two year rotational program and then after that I went into a two year import compliance role. I never imported anything in my life, didn't know what I was doing. But I learned how to properly classify items, um, you know, the duties that you pay based on the classification, country of origin, distinctions and things like that. Because I learned something very new. I was really excited about it. And we used to do like many compliance audits. So whenever you're uh, our various importing operations. I would do an audit to see if, um, items were properly documented and we were importing things the right way. And you want to find any issues in advance, proactively, because if Customs and Border Protection found in, then you're more likely to have scrutiny of your shipments. Shipments may be delayed penalties, things like that. So they were happy for me to come and do a review and find any issues and they will fix it. So after being in that role for a couple of years, I was saying that, hey, I'm pretty much fresh out of college. I have an impact. You know, I'm this little peon in this major company. They're making changes based off a report that I did. I love this, right? And they're so happy for me to come and find their issues. So I thought that's what audit was. So then when I left and went into my first audit role, I was shocked to find out people don't like the auditors, you know, because you're coming in, you're finding issues, you're writing up reports. And they weren't as welcoming as, you know, it was when I was in import compliance. But it was really that experience and import compliance that carried me through audit. I really love being able to get in, understand processes, understand end to end processes, finding issues, fixing them. Um, so I did that for a while and then, um, in one of my audits I uncovered, ah, well, not uncovered, but I identify what ended up being a fraudulent type issue that turned over to the investigations group. And so I was intrigued by that and I was like, oh, you know, I would really love to be an investigator. How do you do that? So I met with the lady, you know, who was leading that team and she said, become a certified fraud examiner. So I did that. I got my certification and then when I was at Kraft Foods at this time, and then one day the, uh, CFO was walking past my desk and saw my huge plaque because I was so proud of myself for getting my certification. And he said, you should become, you know, you should join our investigations team. So I got a chance to go over and be a part of investigations. Um, so that's how like the audit and investigations kind of came about. And then when I had the role that was based in London and supporting Africa, that brought in a risk management lens because that role had internal controls, risk management compliance, and corporate investigations. So it brought all of that together. So, you know, I just kind of like went around different ways of, uh, risk, you know. So whether it was audit, internal Control, just looking at risk at different angles. So when the opportunity came up, uh, with Kraft, um, um, with um, Estee Lauder, this was my first enterprise risk management role. But it made perfect sense because it's bringing everything together. Now instead of looking at risk at a functional level or process level or even at a regional level like I did in my previous role, now I'm looking at it at an enterprise level. I'm looking at global risk. Um, but I understand all these various aspects of it because during my time in audit, I wasn't only auditing financials, I was auditing operations as well. So whether it was supply chain, marketing, sales, all the different functions. So this to me was a nice way to pull it all together. And so I was really excited to have the opportunity. And this is the first time that, you know, I get to meet with our CEO and you know, members of his leadership team. I get to meet with members of the audit committee and the members of the board, you know, to talk about the biggest risk across the company. So, uh, it does challenge me to think differently. I need to understand the strategy, um, and understand which risks are most critical to the strategy, uh, versus like, you know, more functional process related risks. But that's pretty much how it all came together.

Speaker C: It's fascinating. I mean, two things from, from that. One, anyone that can use the word peon in context in, in uh, in. In a. I loved. But the other. But it sounds like in another world you could have ended up being like a private detective or something like that. It feels like you've got that kind of like, gene of like, I'm going to chase this down, I'm going to chase it down. Whatever.

Speaker A: That came from me being the bratty little sister I was trying to get my brothers in trouble.

Speaker B: I reckon I recognize that thrill though, because I actually found a. Sorry, not, not running away from my brother, even though I did. I mean the fraud side of business is, is fascinating. Um, and that's a whole other story. But I just wanted to. So I remember you commenting on, you know, your role when, when we first met in Poland and you said something along the lines, and correct me if I've got this wrong, he said something along the lines of my job would be made a lot easier if everybody told me the risks in the business all the time. So how do you open up the sort of lines of communication to be able to find risk rather than you stumbling across a fraud? Surely, you know, we need to open up lines of communication so that people can report risk. But Are people comfortable doing that?

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think it depends on the culture of the company. So, um, I've been fortunate enough to work for companies where they're very clear on we have to do business the right way. And here are the lines to report something if something you know is not right. And I've seen when you have that type of a culture that people typically feel comfortable speak up. If you have that type of a culture and um, investigations are taken seriously, you have that type of people feel more comfortable to speak up. Not everybody will do it, you know, and there's usually an anonymous way you can report if you know you're aware of something and you don't want to give your information. Now during the days that I was doing investigations, I always loved when people um, provided their identity because it made it that much easier for me. I'm not in investigations role now, so I don't have that visibility in my current role. But when I had that type of ah, role in a previous company, um, there'd be times when they will report something anonymously. They give you the information that they think you need. But then, you know, when you're doing the investigation you have questions, you know, and you need more information and you can't go back to the person because you don't know who it was, you know, um, and so those are very, um, frustrating experiences for me. There are times I thought, you know, I see, you know, some indications that this may be actually happening, but I can't substantiate it, you know, because I don't have enough evidence. I'm not quite sure, you know, they give me very kind of high level, you know, um, allegation. So those ones are very, uh, frustrating. But I'll say in my current role, uh, with enterprise risk management will make my job easiest is if every function, every market, every region understood the risk within their space and they're doing their best job to manage those risks. So it never gets to be an enterprise risk. So for enterprise risk, it's going to potentially affect the company globally. So you think about a company of our size, all these different brands, all these different markets, right? Um, if they have, you know, great processes in place to identify the risk and manage the risk, there'll be very little for me to do in my enterprise level because these risks won't, you know, be to the level that will require, you know, us to manage. And then that way we just focus on strategic risk, you know, how to make the business successful in the direction that we're going and not, uh, not like really managing risk that we're dealing with today, because that's being managed, you know, throughout. So a few things that I've been working on is developing a framework, you know, to help with the identification, assessment, you know, of those risks. And I'm going to be like, you know, vetting it, just making sure that it works not only for, for my group, but it can work for other, uh, areas. So I have a few meetings I have scheduled coming up where I'm going to just pilot test it with some people across the business that I've formed good relationships with. So they can like vet it, tell me if it's like, useful, not useful, what tweaks, need them made to it, and then, you know, ideally be able to roll it out and say, hey, here's a tool you all can use to identify and assess the risk within your areas. And you will be doing the same thing for. For, erm.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's. I think it's so important actually to sort of create that sort of structure and open up those lines of communication. Because, because it's sort of. I think people feel the weight of the consequence, right? It's like, okay, I can report the risk. I'm going to report this anonymously because of the risk consequence. Uh, it's the. Where I've experienced that is where I, I sort of always have said in the environments that I work is that we need to be really good at finding issues and reporting issues and managing issues. And it's like, oh, but they're issues, Chris. We don't want to talk about issues. We, you know, I wonder whether you find that, you know, do we talk, you know, are people uncomfortable talking about risk and because you travel so much, you know, are there. Are there sort of different ways that people respond to risk in different countries?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so I'll say things have changed. I'm sure the companies that I've worked for, because it's been some time, but when I had the investigations role, um, that company was excellent at sharing learnings. And what I loved about it is you would, you would protect the people. Right? You wouldn't say this person or this role in this country did xyz. You know, you wouldn't, um, disclose information where you could like, um, identify, you know, the person or even maybe neither the country or the market. But what was so important about it is that there were lessons to be learned. It was either that we uncovered something in one market and we saw the indicators, um, that when we communicated, you know, to other parts of the business. We identified this fraud, and it was because we picked up on these indicators, and here's the steps that we took to figure out what was happening in the business. They can then look for those same things and see if it's happening in their business. And I remember one specific situation where we did share the information, you know, said, like, anonymously, somewhat. But at least the, um, issue itself, the indicators, we shared that, and we found out in another market the very same thing was happening, but they caught it earlier in that other market, so it didn't have the same financial implications as it did in the market that I was in. And I remember even, um, being brought into an audit discussion at this point. I was no longer an internal audit. I was in another role. But they wanted me to share it with the audit team so that they may make adjustments to how they test, you know, controls in certain areas because they need to pick up on this a bit sooner. So there is value. And I understand why people don't want to communicate it. You know, it's difficult, especially for, like, leaders to say, okay, we had this major fraud, you know, or this thing happens. I still think there's. There's, you know, um, apprehension about sharing the information, but I'm always going to be an advocate of finding a way to share the most relevant parts of it, um, to help the business.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I'm sure that sort of framework and lines of communication and your reputation as well, will no doubt help everybody do that. I'm conscious of time, and we do ask a question every podcast. And, um, you know, we. You've brought us into it really nicely there. I almost sort of asked you the question already, but it was, you know, do you think that cultures consider risk in different ways? Like, when I've sort of done business in different countries, you know, I did a transformation rollout across the whole of Europe.

Speaker C: Uh, we.

Speaker B: We mentioned New Yorkers versus, you know, Californians or, you know, I'm sure everyone has a set culture when it comes to leadership, but do you see that affecting risk? And, you know, Mike, I don't know whether you've got a comment just to give Latoya a chance to think about that.

Speaker C: Uh, so I'm going to. My, My answer is yes, but I was thinking more of cult cultures slightly differently. So I think culture, obviously you got that culture, and it'd be interesting to dig into that a little bit. But I, uh, what I'm experiencing at the moment, and I've experienced recently is different risks between cultures within organizations. So you might have a digital team or a team that's looking to deploy an AI, or you've got a team that's working data, uh, and actually they see risks completely differently. So I call it the rush to deploy with AI at the moment. So everybody wants to deploy something to do. Magic. But actually some of the risks are being ignored because people aren't taking their time and doing proper due diligence over things. And we've talked about data escaping companies and getting into the in, onto the Internet and out via AI, but I think it's things like that. For me, it's like culture is not just between countries, it's also within and, um, between sections of an organization. And I think within that quite often. So I, You. You flag risks as a way of managing the business. Right. But actually if your senior leader is of a particular flavor, so they, let's say they're of a digital flavor rather than a legal flavor, they may not see the risk or may choose to ignore it.

Speaker B: It's almost like one person's risk is another person's opportunity. You know, I've actually, I've actually experienced that recently myself, actually, because we were talking. I talk a lot to finance people, core finance people. Latoya, you know, you'd love it. Now, it's not the same as it used to be 10, 15 years ago, but they, but, but my. I, I was provoking people to try to turn the volume down on accuracy, to turn the volume up on sort of clarity and, um, you know, relevance. Ah, but, but that was too risky for people. It's like, you know, I can't, I can't not be accurate. It's like, well, but if you, if you've got enough information and it's incomplete, but you can still make a good decision, then, uh, do you really need it to be 100 accurate? Which is kind of in our soul as finance people, in our culture as finance people. So I definitely recognize that, um, you know, Latoya doesn't necessarily need to be country by country, but. Or internally as well. But do you recognize this?

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think it's an interesting, um, discussion. So I agree. When you look at risk, depending on the function, uh, depending on where people sit in the organization, they're going to see the risk a different way. And I agree. Risk and opportunity. And if you remember, I had a coin when I did the presentation in Poland. Like risk, uh, and opportunity are like, you know, two sides of the same coin. So where there's an opportunity. To take AI as an example, AI presents a lot of opportunity, but also amplifies and also introduces a level of risk. So it's both sides. So how do you take advantage of the opportunities while trying to also mitigate and manage the risk? Um, so that's why I think it's important that each function, each area understand the risk within their own space. Because if you talk to a finance person, regardless of what risk you're discussing, they're going to see a different risk than the IT person, than the, um, marketing person. They're going to look at it from a very different lens. Risk, you know, and depending on like, um, how big of a risk it is, it needs to be managed. So I don't think there's one way to look at it. Um, so I think it is important to, you know, to get, um, those different points of views. Now there's been times I would bring people into the room and we have a conversational risk and it goes, it goes crazy. It goes in so many different directions because everybody have a different perspective. So how I try to center it, I try to center it around the company strategy that gives me a lane to focus on because I'm looking at enterprise risk. Now. It doesn't mean that that's the only risk. It doesn't mean that, you know, there's not a financial risk or operational risk we need to consider, but there's other people who are focusing on those aspects of the risk. My lens is more the global enterprise view. So that, that's really how I try to, to structure it. Because I agree there's different ways of looking at the risk. But, um, I think your point about, um, um, cultural elements or how like, risks are perceived across different countries is interesting. Now just. I know we're going to run out of time, but I'll make it very quick. Um, when I had the role in Africa, um, that was my first time really seeing how I can have one risk and how it manifests itself is very different country by country, you know, so if you take something kind of like broad, like a talent risk, you know, the talent risk in one country or the culture in one country, uh, how issues are raised in one country could be very different than how it was raised in another country. Um, I remember like one example, uh, I thought it was very interesting. One of the countries, they said, like, the tribal relationships can complicate the work, uh, environment because you can have a person that maybe according to their tribe, this person may be more senior to another person, but the person that's more junior is more senior in the corporate setting. So you had this very interesting dynamic of, uh, okay, outside of work, one person is more senior, but inside of work, the other person is more senior than how do they work together? You know, I never thought about that. As much as I look at talent risk, I never thought about that because I was never in a position where it was, you know, relevant in my area. So it is, it's. It's fast. As I say, this type of stuff for me is fascinating because there's so many things you get exposure to by the travel.

Speaker B: Mike and I are equals on here, but. But Mike's from Birmingham and I'm from London.

Speaker C: You know, I, I was. My smile as you were talking there. That's why I was very much thinking, I wonder if your brothers would recognize what you describe in terms of that power dynamic, that you might be the youngest. But, but I think that's. That's for another podcast. I think that that's a really interesting conversation there because I think that that for me, one of the things that's come through in what you're saying is, is risks are. Risks are something that you should be surfacing and managing in a proactive way. And I think all too often people bury their head in the sand and ignore risks because businesses should be taking risks knowledgeably rather than trying to eliminate thinking that it's all about trying to eliminate risk. And that came through really, really strongly. And no, that was brilliant.

Speaker A: That's exactly it. Because you take calculated risk. So that's why I really don't like the phrase risk management. Because I'm like, well, you know, because manage. And, uh, I don't know, I just feel like that's all you do. You're always just focused on the risk. All you're doing is managing the risk, you know, but like you said, a company has to take risks, you know, so it's not always like just, you know, for me to say, okay, we gotta have plans in place to manage every single risk. A mitigation strategy could be you decide to accept the risk because the reward is so great. And maybe the implications of this risk, if it wasn't manifest, it's not, you know, it's not outside of our risk appetite or our risk tolerance levels, you know, so, yeah, sometimes it is, you know, you have to take risk. But I think it's important for us to help identify the risk, assess the risk, and communicate clearly to management. Okay, this is what, um, you know, these decisions may lead to you know, and that just may lead to. Anything is possible. But what's likely, you know, what's likely to happen? What would be the impact to the business if this did happen? You know, so we try to be as, um, it's hard to be accurate. You're talking about future things. You know, nobody can really predict the future. But we do try to be clear, you know, to your, uh, earlier point, Chris, I try to be clear in our assessment what parameters we're using to do this assessment and communicate what it is that we're seeing and also make sure that we're having those cross functional discussions. Everybody's looking at it in a different way.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. There's a lot to the subject. So, you know, look, I'm sure if people want to reach out that want to learn more about what Latoya Lacey is doing, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker A: Um, best way is on LinkedIn, you know, so I'm on LinkedIn, um, send a message, connect with me. That's probably the best way. I'm on some of the other social media platforms, I really don't use them, you know, so LinkedIn is definitely the best way.

Speaker B: And if you're happy to get on a plane, as most M Americans are AICPA conference by sounds of it, um, and well, well worth listening, um, to you. Well, look, thank you very much, um, for all of your insights today. It's great, great to have you on. Hopefully you'll be visiting London as well, so we, uh, can take you out. Um, thanks for today.

Speaker A: Yes, thank you. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Mike.

Speaker B: No problem. Thank you, Mike.

Speaker C: Thanks everyone.

Speaker B: And remember, it's not all about the numbers.