So What...? Is Everyone a Podcaster Now?

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome back to so what? And as beautifully teed up by Mike. Last time we're going to be talking about podcasts. Mike, let's get straight into it. Um, you run a podcast. Why do you want to talk about podcast?

Speaker B: I just thought. I was just kind of thinking. Some people. People ask me, like, when I say I do podcast, they're like, well, why do you do a podcast? And I. One of the things that's happened over, certainly over the last two years is the proliferation of podcasts that are available has been incredible. Every. Everybody's got a podcast. Even Joel's got one there. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy. And I just, just sort of wanted to sort of chat through why. Why do. Do we do it? Why do people do it? Why do we do it? And what, what do we get out of it was, was where I wanted to go, because it's. I found it fascinating. One of the things. So I, as we were saying off. Off air, um, I was with Chris yesterday, and the podcast came out yesterday morning, so they come out on Tuesdays. Um, and two people yesterday in the meeting with Chris came in saying, yes, I've just listened to the podcast that I was on with Chris, and I'm like. And one of them was Chris, um, as it was published. And I'm like, I. I don't think I've listened to any of the podcasts of the 140 odd that we've done. I don't think I've listened to any back. Certainly not deliberately so. Yeah, that was why I just wanted to get into why. Why do we do it?

Speaker A: Which is outrageous, by the way. Just, just to say, you know, even to quality control yourself.

Speaker B: I do actually think. I think I've listened to one when I, When I fell asleep listening to something else and it came on and I was woke to my own voice, which was m. Not pleasant.

Speaker A: Well, um, well, Mike, look, you're, you're missing out. I mean, we've had, uh, you know, we've had almost a thousand downloads, um, in the last sort of month or so. I mean, it, you know, it's not going to set the world on light, but that's, that's a thousand people we're reaching. That's a real peak behind the curtain. Right? Um, so you're, but you're saying just to sort of frame that a little bit. You're saying, why. Why do we do it? And then you said, there's loads out there, so maybe, you know, are there Too many. But then. And also what. What do we get out of it? Um, you've got to kick us off because it's your question and you've been doing it longest and you know, Joel's joined us for so what? Which. So it might be slightly different, but you start.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, so I suppose. Why, why. Why do I keep coming back for more?

Speaker A: Almost 150 episodes.

Speaker B: For me, it's about learning. Um, so what I, What I realized over. Over time is that the way I learn things is by talking them through with people. Explore topics by actually talking about them and thinking about the hood. And that's how my br. And what's been really good about what we've been doing over the past, um, past few years and now more so or even more so with so what is being able to sort of examine my own thinking and views out loud with experts and people that, that are sort of interested in the topic, to sort of refine it a little bit or validate it or think about it. So it's very much for me a learning thing and a, uh, a reassurance thing that some of the things I think are not completely batshit, I suppose is. Is part of it.

Speaker A: And when you are as rural as you are, I mean, when you've only got the dogs and the cows to talk to, you do need to validate

Speaker B: those, which is fair enough, the dogs that don't. Dogs do not provide masses of challenge, I have to say.

Speaker C: So.

Speaker A: But Joe, you know, your recent, um, addition, a great addition to the. To the podcast, and maybe your m. Your thoughts on this are a bit. Bit fresher. You know, what do you think?

Speaker D: Similar to. To Mike in one sense. Now this validation of your ideas is, Is really important, especially when you're sharing them with other people.

Speaker A: You, you know, you're working with people.

Speaker D: And that's something I have acutely, or become acutely aware of as, As a dad, as well, that I share my ideas and thoughts not just at work, but with my kids. And I'm thinking I picked this up off the Internet. You know, I read this in a blog, or I read this off Instagram or as podcasts have become more part of my life. You know, heard it, uh, on podcasts. And I was thinking, you know, what is this actually true? So having those conversations and not just being able to talk about the facts, but talk about the interpretations, talk about the, the stuff that you then conclude about this, that's becoming something that, uh, I, uh, find really powerful with my friends and that's where this, this, my interest came from, you know, having conversations with Mike, and we were saying this is the sort of thing that, you know, is. Is really necessary to make sure we're talking about the right thing. You know, maybe make sure we're concluding the right things. And the. So what, uh, element I would say, from my perspective is knowing that other people will probably be having these thoughts but not having these conversations. And they may want to ask questions. They may want to say, well, what's the point in LinkedIn? Why do we have consultants? Why do we do coaching? You know, what is the value for me? But who do they talk about with, you know, and how do they come to these conclusions and be assured that they're the right ones? Now, that's assuming that between the three of us, we are coming up with the right answers. All right? But, yeah, people are then able to conclude themselves. What about you, Chris?

Speaker A: So, um. It was a while ago, wasn't it? It was three years ago, I think. I think what. So I had already been running, like, this community, like gen cfo, and I wanted to know, build my. My sort of my own voice a little bit. You know, I felt that once I'd left, you know, corporate life, I didn't really have that daily regular sort of. Sort of stage to talk to people, you know, to. To. To. To sort of get ideas. And I. I actually thought it was really important that, uh, for me personally, you know, if I'm creating this community of, like, progressive leaders, it's not just about an event every month or every quarter. It's. It's actually, there's substance to it. And I think for me, I was. It was two things really. I. I was looking for a way of trying to, you know, have those regular conversations and keep my. My hand in, really, and to make sure that I wasn't just, you know, blowing spoke and start to look out of touch. The. The second thing was, which I think is one of the hardest things with a podcast, is actually finding co hosts that you want to do it with, you know, regularly. And that's a very practical side to it. But, I mean, that's a blocker for so many people. There's a. There. There are 99% of podcasts have, you know, five episodes and die. So having met, you know, Mike over a pint and the conversation being, you know, good enough almost, to become a first podcast, you know, I felt good enough, almost. Good enough, almost. Yeah. Well, we hadn't practiced and we. We didn't, you know, how to pass to each other and all that sort of. Yeah, but. But it was almost. Yeah, it was. It was. The practical side to it as well.

Speaker D: Was.

Speaker A: Was really important that. That chemistry. And I know that, you know, you. You're good friends with m. Mike. You know, I had just met Mike, so again, there's a sort of chemistry and a synergy there as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, that, that, that's. No, that's really interesting. So, basically, it sounds like we're all coming at it from a similarish perspective, which is. It's. It's almost like the podcasts are a learning vehicle. Um, I do like the fact, Chris, that you. You wanted to get back on the stage. I like that. That's very, very.

Speaker A: That was quite telling.

Speaker B: I even heard that. I even heard that. Yeah.

Speaker A: I always saw management as, uh, you know, a chance for me to express myself publicly.

Speaker D: Oh, I've got a question. Just listening to that and then thinking and wondering what's the sort of inner motivation beyond what we've just said? But a podcast, or were podcasts a natural outcome of COVID where a lot of that socialization, because what we've just described, at least listening to you, is that this podcast and these kind of conversations are really important to us. And, um, maybe Covid was a time when it was less a. Was less easy to have these kind of conversations with your mates. And as we got more used to having calls, having, you know, FaceTime discussion, catch up, whatever it was, that those started to feel a little bit like a podcast. And so that's why POTS generally have just snowballed.

Speaker B: I'm laughing as you're talking for no other reason other than thinking back to Covid and because Joel and I have known each other for ages and we try, and we're pretty cheated it now, but we try to catch up every six nations and watch the England Wales game. Um, Joel being Welsh and me being English. Um, and I just remember in Covid watching me watching, trying to watch the England Wales game on, like, iplayer whilst on a zoom call with you and your brother, but also trying to synchronize the video feed that we're watching, so we're watching it exactly the same time. So, yeah, yeah, I do think there's something in what you're saying. I think that what happened during COVID is that everybody got so much more comfortable with this particular approach. So that we're using now, which is three different people on Zoom it, like, you know, me stood in my. My office, you in your office, Chris, and you in Your office all being able to talk openly in a way that previously on a telephone call, we might not have done that. That may be what changed. So then it suddenly became easier to do a podcast because you didn't have to all be in the same place to do it.

Speaker A: But I, so I, from our perspective, I think, yeah, absolutely, like, in terms of content creation and creating it and, you know, that the, the opportunity to put on a podcast was definitely there. You know, you could argue that we were early, uh, adopters in the uk. The US already had like a massive market when we started, you know, three, three, four years ago. But, but, but from an audience perspective, I think things have changed massively as well. I think they, I, I think a good podcast conversation is like pub chat, you know, as we sometimes say to speakers who come on, it's that let's not think about big, you know, TV production interviews. It's like this pub chat and there's a sort of intimacy with that. So it's like, you know, I know some people who, who we both know Mike, who have, uh, said they like listening to the podcast because it's like being with us and then when we, they meet us at our, you know, events and stuff like that, you know, there's a sort of connection already. So I think there's, there's a sort of level of intimacy which is, which is great. With the podcast, it just feels a little bit different. I think the way that people consume contents totally change. That's probably another conversation. But, you know, you can choose to listen to five minutes of this, turn it off and come back to it. That's really good, you know, in terms of conversation and learning and, you know, how you want to manage your own time.

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Speaker A: But I think the other thing which goes back to kind of the reason why I wanted to start it was from an audience perspective, is that I think we actually live in quite a low trust world. I think people, you know, they don't go into the office so much. They might not have a strength of management or leadership around them. Um, they might not see it as much. They might not hear about, you know, how leaders work as much. And I think, I think these sorts of conversations can sort of build trust in in us, but also the, the themes that we talk about. You know, last time we talked about consultancy and for that coaching and it's like we're having like a rounded conversation about it. No, uh, politics, no, no, you know, no kind of organizational bias there. So I, I like the sort of trust side of it as well. Sorry that I went on a bit

Speaker B: there, but no, I think I, I completely see that. And I think, you know, the, the interview podcast that we do where we're, well, not interviews, but you know, the conversations that we have with other leaders. I think it's exactly that what, what's come through from doing those over the, over the period is, is that level of trust that gets built up really quickly with that person. But also the, the concepts that the themes are common. There's, there's quite a lot of commonality in terms of successful, what successful leaders have done. And I think as, as a, as a, somebody listening to it. If you're on your own in an organization experiencing, I don't know, transfer, organizational transformation or uncertainty or you think, am I doing the right thing, having somebody out there talking about the stuff and thinking about things that, that resonate with you? I think it's really, really good thing.

Speaker D: You know, that comes back to the PubChat style, isn't it, that it's not contrived. There's, there's no agenda where there's a message being pushed out. It's sharing the, those thoughts and, and having it challenged. Right. Coming up. Coming up with something better based on, you know, response.

Speaker B: Yeah, you could probably tell that it's not contrived by the way that my last answer ended up rambling. Um, so, so, yes, exactly.

Speaker A: So, uh, do you think there, there are too many, though? That was the other part of what you were saying. There's lots of podcasts out there. You know, everybo is sort of almost becoming a content creator now. Um, you know, even when you go on to LinkedIn, you're seeing people doing sort of one minute videos of their, their leadership Week. You know, do you think there are, uh, too many?

Speaker B: You go first, John. What do you think?

Speaker D: Depends how you look at it. Because you could argue that there's, there's a lot out there, therefore there's too many. But then I'm actually also wondering how aware people are of podcasts. And you know, that would be another question I think, for us to look at. How are people aware of podcasts? What's the algorithm doing? Because the reality for a lot of people will be they'll only be aware of a few, maybe a dozen podcasts. Right. And unless they know how to search for specific things or they. They have something to look for, then it's not necessarily going to just pop up on their feed. So, yeah, I think it's a very subjective question. It's a difficult one. I mean, it may be, you know, there are too many now and we can see that with the fact, uh, that influencing is now a profession. You know, It's a profession, yeah, for

Speaker B: some people, if they're getting paid, then yes, I. So my, My answer to this. I've got two answers to this, which. So the first answer, uh, is yes, there are too many podcasts, but that, that links to my overall view of this digital age win at the moment. For me personally, I find the amount of content overwhelming. So I remember, again, known Joel for a long time. Joel and I had like, expansive CD collections. Um, and I know you still, I think you've still got yours, Joel. I've got rid of mine. But actually, but actually it was a very bad decision to get rid of my CD collection in some respects, because what I find now with online music is I can't find anything. You know, I can't find what I want. It's just. There's just too much and it's overwhelming. And the same is true podcasts. It's like. It's just like quite fancy listening to something different, and it's just like, oh, there's just too much economy. So I find. So, so short answer. Uh, yes, there's too many for me as an old git who can't navigate stuff. But I think that then the flip side of that is, what is the point of podcasts? And if, like, for me, the point of doing a podcast is you're getting to surface some views, you're getting to think out, and the consequence of that is that it's published online, then everybody should have one, if you see what I mean. It's almost like it, it's. It's just a. In some ways, it's just a method of learning. So it's. I feel really contrary.

Speaker A: It's like I'm getting Truman show vibes now. It's like every. Everyone's going to have their own world recorded all the time. Or is it. Or is it Michael Barrymore with his glasses on?

Speaker B: We've already got that. Exactly. We've already got that.

Speaker A: Uh, so I. So I don't necessarily agree there's too many. And I think, because like you said, you know, that there's personal learning potentially, from a broadcaster's point of view, and that's what I think we are. Right. If you take it seriously with broadcasts, with media. We're not just guys meeting up, because we do actually put a lot of thought into this. But I think from an audience point of view, I don't think there are, uh, there are, uh, too many either, because I did actually just look up a quick start. And only a third of adults in the UK have listened to a podcast in this week, in the last week. So, you know, is that. Is that a big number or is that a small number?

Speaker B: Is there. I was going to say the opposite of. That is over a third of people have listened to a podcast in the last week, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but. But It's a.

Speaker B: It's 20. That's 20 million people.

Speaker A: Right, but that's a.

Speaker D: That's a.

Speaker A: That's a third of people who listen to one podcast in one week. Yeah, that's not, you know, that, that. If you said that about, I don't know, watching tv, you know, a third of people have watched TV in the last week. If you said that, you know, 10 years after color TV came in, in the, you know, whenever it was 70s, 80s, you know, you'd be like, oh, there's this plenty of room to grow. Right. Um, but, you know, we want to get to the point where we are today with color TVs, which is every household has four TVs, even though there are two people in the house. So that might be too much, but I mean, I think there's still room to grow. And. But I do take your point about, um, you know, there's multiple reasons why you might do it, um, and the way that people consume content. You know, you. You just triggered something earlier about. I was talking to my son about vinyl, and we. We went away and he. We came across a vinyl record player, and he was obsessed by it. And he was like, what? You can turn this thing over and there's music on the other side, and it's a physical experience and it's this and it's that. He was. He was really attracted by it. So I think maybe the sort of. The digital nature of podcasts might limit it in. In the end, but there's definitely room to grow.

Speaker D: It might also be about context, right? I mean, Mike, you're saying there's too much out there, but if it was well organized, yeah, you can use it. It's not that. There's just that then the context changes. It's not that there's too much out there. It's that it's too disorganized for. For us over 50 who are still talking about our vinyls in our CD. Right. I mean. I mean, in another context, for other people there. There may be too little, um, they may want access to more information.

Speaker B: I've got two things going on in my head at the moment, with one of which is related to what you just said, Joel, and the other one is just imagine. Imagine how freaked out his son's gonna be when he sees a cassette.

Speaker A: Um, you know, what we were again, blows my mind, but we were watching something. Not a cassette, but it was a. There's a video player. And, um. And the. Do you remember it sometimes got caught and you'd pull it out and the actual tape would come out? Yeah, dad. You know, in the olden days, did that really happen? I was like, yeah, really? But the olden days is like, you know, 2010. Um, but, you know, my. I. I think it's, um. You know, I think I love doing it. Um, I was just going to come back on one. One thing at the very start, I said there was a thousand downloads in the last month. You know, I don't really. I don't really m. Care in a way, because I'm in it for similar reasons about forming an opinion, talking to lots of leaders, lots of sort of learning on my side. Um, but. But the thing that some people forget about podcasts is that you create an archive. And actually those thousand downloads have come from, you know, the last two, three years. And I think there's something important in that, is that it's not just. It's not just about the next podcast that people listen to. You know, it's that they want to go back and they want to hear what someone said in, you know, or, you know, that you're creating an archive as well. So, uh, it's just another angle to, oh, there. Too many. I don't think there are, because you're actually creating that archive. You're creating a history. You're. You're having conversations at the time, which I think is really important.

Speaker B: I think that's absolutely true. Makes perfect sense. I think the other factor that we need, you know, we. We've got within the dynamic, is there's always another person. Not always, but often another person. So. So every time it's a fresh start. If you do it on the interview podcast, because actually, depending on who that person is and how they take things, the conversation can go in a different Direction. If it was just. If it was just, so what, every week it would be different. Right.

Speaker D: An additional thing to that is something that's new to podcasts that maybe wasn't there for this kind of, you know, these kind of conversations would have been broadcast, but they would have been interviews between two people and it would have just been a show. Now, if you think about it, people can respond, people can provide comments. There's a way of developing a, uh, discourse about it. So, you know, if we're right, but we're missing something, someone can add to that and then the conversation grows, the education goes. If we're wrong or if there's. There's something that's contestable, then someone again can just challenge it and we have a wider discussion and it develops the knowledge.

Speaker A: So, Mike, the million dollar question. Uh, podcast. So what is there a future? Where are you at with it?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, I mean, obviously there's a future. Uh, and I think for me personally, yes, I really enjoy doing this. I think it's a really good way for me to learn things. So, yes, from a personal perspective, and yeah, you've heard it here first, it's not all about the numbers. Listeners. We're going to carry on. Um, so from that perspective. But I, you know, I think from, in, in the wider context, podcasts will continue to grow because everybody will want to have one, everybody wants a voice. And, uh, you know, you're not going to get to the point where 60 million people in the UK have a podcast, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's. If it's not a significant chunk of people are actually putting their thoughts out there because effectively that's what social media does already. So, yeah, podcasts are going to continue. You heard it here first.

Speaker A: Excellent, excellent. I feel like a media analysts now. So, yeah, it's great. Well, look, um, thank you, M. That was a good one. And, uh, next time, next time, I think we are going to be doing, uh, a special World cup thing. Um, might have to come back to you on that. But inspired by the football, uh, World cup that's going on at the moment, we are, we're going to be having a slightly different. So what? And, um, we will, we will tell you all about it when we get there. Uh, but look out for it, um, coming up in a couple of weeks. But thank you, Mike. Thank you, thank you, Joel.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker A: And remember, it's not all about the numbers.