How to Find and Win Your Next Leadership Role With Richard Triggs

Speaker A: Welcome to the People Leaders podcast, the audio resource for managers and business leaders creating high performing teams. Join leadership and team development experts Jan and Michelle Turkleson each week as they explore both subjects from every angle. Through practical tips, valuable insights and compelling interviews with leadership experts around the world, you'll learn how to bring out the best in your staff and how to give your best as a leader.

Speaker B: Welcome everyone to the People Leaders podcast. Really excited about this session today because I have a special guest and someone I know personally and that I've worked with personally and for me that is such a delight when I get to have a really focused conversation with them. And my guest today is Richard Triggs, who's the founder and CEO of um Arete executive and executive search and recruitment company. Now Richard really developed a personal connection with so many people over the years, but executives in ASX listed and privately owned corporations and has placed thousands of executives in senior leadership roles and board positions. Richard has also the author of a couple of books. One was the Uncovered the Hidden Job Market and which is really considered to, you know, the go to resource for those who are really prepared to take their career, career path into their own hands. And he's also got a new book which is Winning the War for Talent, which I have, you know, like started reading and making notes and really excited about sharing some of that information. But today it really is about your leadership role. So welcome Richard.

Speaker C: Lovely to be here, Jan. And it's always funny, I think, you know, where obviously you've got this beautiful background and it looks all lovely and stylish and so on. And here am I sitting in front of a couple of sound baffles because I'm just too lazy. So I think I need to do something about my background, uh, because I'm just not, uh, cool enough.

Speaker B: Actually, you know, it's really funny, um, you know, your background, you know, talking about your background because over Covid a lot of people were working from home, right? And then some people had blurry backgrounds, some people had, you know, like the visual displays and all that kind of stuff. But they found that people who you could see their real life honest background, like you could touch it and all that had the better connections with each other because they get an understanding of how they are, you know, and, and that's what I love about you, is that it's not the periphery. It's kind of like you are, uh, the real deal. And that's what I really love about you, Richard.

Speaker C: So my background just screams, this guy's just gray and boring.

Speaker B: And I know that that is so not true. I've been away on retreats with you and that is so not the case.

Speaker C: We have done that. We actually have a very exciting one planned for later this year, which I'll be happy to tell you all about at another time.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, there's my kind of final two, um, questions about what are you working on and how do people reach you? And I think it's really good at the end because kind of like you get, you give them a sense of who you are and what you actually know. And what I also wanted to share is that people that you bring onto your retreats, uh, they're from very different backgrounds, but they have a similar value set. You know, they're people who are smart but also interested in their own development. And the guests that you bring on, there's always like high value. So yeah, I'm, um, a promoter, aren't I? Because it's true, like I have actually experienced that. So I can actually, you know, like hand on heart, say that. Okay, so first question is that if you are looking for your next role, what are um, some telltale signs? Like how do you know that you are ready for your next role? Like, are there some tangibles?

Speaker C: Yeah, like I think that this is one of those questions where there's no specific answer. There are some people who are, uh, quite comfortable sitting in the same job for their entire career and they just want to be left to, to do their thing and you know, have their two weeks holiday on Broadway island every year and coach this kids footy team and, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. And then there are other people who feel if they're not being promoted or changing jobs every two to three years, there's something wrong with them. So I think the reality is it's just a case of doing some self assessment and are you being fulfilled and are uh, you being given the opportunity to live up to your full potential? Whether that's financial or uh, in terms of the scope of role, the amount of leadership or whatever it might be. I get a lot of people who come. I don't coach people, but I do a lot of what I would call impromptu coaching because of the work that I do where a senior executive will come to me. And one specific example, fairly recently, he said, oh, look, I'm in a CFO role and it's really, really good because my boss really trusts me and I've been able to get it down now, so I only have to work four days a week. And so every Friday I get to play golf. And the business is going great and my job's really safe and everything's awesome and I really love my boss, but I think I need a new job. And, and I said to him, why do you think you need a new job? He said, well, I'm on 400 and I want to be on 450. And I just said to him, I said, dude, you know, by the time you take tax out of that, I mean, you're, you're wanting to give up a job that you actually really love for money. Is that really a good motivation? And I used to have this friend who, uh, you've also met and I know that your husband knows well, Colin Clark. And he used to talk about climbing the corporate ladder, only to realize it's leaning against the wrong building. And, you know, we, people say, you know, I've worked so hard, Richard, to become a CEO, uh, I've done 60, 70 hours a week. You know, I'm 20 kilos overweight, my wife hates my guts, my kids won't talk to me, and I don't actually enjoy my job. Like what? But because people are preconditioned that, you know, unless you're a fast moving, you know, high powered corporate executive, there's something wrong with you. Then it, you end up in a situation where, what do they say, Be careful what you wish for. So I mean, there is definitely times where you might be in a job and you wake up in the morning and you go, oh my God, I've got to go to work today and I'm really bored, or my boss is an idiot, or I really feel I'm underpaid, or I'm not been given the right tools to do my job properly, or, uh, I don't feel that there's, I'm aligned with the vision and the values of the business. So there's some very justifiable reasons for, uh, wanting to move. I think it's a case of again, to something I talk about in my second book. Well, in both books actually, it's, you know, rather than being driven by, what am I drawn to? So, uh, you know, it used to be in the view of more eastern philosophy that the idea of a midlife crisis was not, as we understand it, you know, as a guy, you know, by Ferrari and have an affair with a coworker, or as a woman, you know, go and do Eat Pray Love in barley for two years. It was more, uh, the first half of my life. I have a responsibility to my family, you know, I need to become educated. And I mean, obviously it's very generic. I'm not talking about everybody. But in that view, you know, I need to get a good education, I need to get a good job, I need to find a good partner, uh, I need to have some kids, I need to raise them well. And then once I've fulfilled my responsibility at the time of my midlife crisis, it's in saying, okay, now I've done what I've been obliged to do. What would the gods have me do? Not from a religious context, but you know, what, what would I actually love to do? What is the job that I would love to lead and how do I create that? And a big part of that is, you know, if you're, if you're got goals that you're driven by, you know, they're hard, they're, uh, uncomfortable, they're boring, they are, uh, tedious. But if suddenly you change and you have goals of, for things that you're drawn to, then suddenly they become exciting and, you know, energizing. And, and so if you think about your career in that point of view, you know, just doing a little bit of a self assessment, am I really doing stuff that I'm driven to do or that I'm drawn to do? And if I'm driven to do, then maybe it's time for a change. Of course there are, ah, a lot of factors that play into, you know, kids fees and mortgages and all kinds of things. So it, it's not a one, one line answer. It's different for everybody. Except to say that, you know, I feel very fortunate. I'm in a career now that I enjoy and I'm, um, drawn to. It may not have necessarily been the best financial decision, but, and I'm sure for yourself, Jan, and um, for Brett and for other people, you know, it's, it's the same deal. Sometimes you, you've just gotta trust the universe and, and, and make the leap. Oh.

Speaker B: So yeah, right on, Richard. Ah, and that's the thing about what you said is you really got to do some self reflection. And I think that's the epitome of a really good leader, is that they have developed a level of self awareness so they can actually ask those questions and get a reasonable, you know, intuitive, clear response around what is it that I really need right now? And you know, like when you were saying about, you know, driven as opposed to drawn to, like, I love those distinctions because they feel different in the body, don't they? You Know like when you say those words.

Speaker C: Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And I talk in my second book as a leader, a great way to retain people is to thank you for that quick promotion. There is, uh, is to just, you know, regularly, maybe once a year, say, look Jan, you work for me and I really appreciate it and no doubt you have other options of places that you could work. So I'd like you to tell me what are three reasons that you love working for me and uh, you know, being clear on using the word love because you want people who love working for you, right? And people might say all kinds of different things. I love the projects, I love the flexibility. I love the clients, I love the team, I love the tools, I love the innovation, I love the culture, I love the money, whatever it is, you know, as long as what they love you are in a position to continue to give them. Just keep giving them what they love. Think of three reasons that they love working for you. Then part of that role of being a good leader is saying, well, how do we either adapt your role within the business so that you do love it, or maybe it's time for a change. Not enforce isn't really the right word, but to encourage and inspire that reflection. Because a lot of people don't do it. They're not taught how to do it. They just think I show up at work, you know, I do the minimum possible, get paid and you know, and go to the Broncos.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah, yeah. And, and just having a couple of those questions and having the courage to have that conversation. Because some people might say, what do you mean love? I'm here to work. I just here to, you know, like, make money. However, as a leader, part of your remit is to inspire and, and inspire means to be imbued with spirit, you know, so people can bring their whole selves to work. So what a wonderful opportunity for leaders to just get outside of that kind of like that corporate box around. These are the questions that I ask, even in your one on ones, you know, like even if once a year you actually ask those, you know, like deep questions and prepare people that you are going to have a bit of a reflective session. Like how inspiring is that?

Speaker C: You're right. It, it takes bravery to ask the question because what if they say something that you don't want to hear, you know, and also people may go, uh oh, what's this guy's agenda here? So maybe I need to be cautious about what I say because I don't want to say something that's going to you know, end up, you know, with me getting a bad performance review or whatever it might be. So that trust and vulnerability and I'm, um, a bit over the word vulnerability, I think that that is just become so boring. But, but you know, that ability to be able to demonstrate that what you're asking of them is what you also ask of yourself, uh, is important.

Speaker B: Yeah. And imagine a leader who actually shares their reflections. Because I asked myself, you know, like in the conversation, and I've asked myself that and this is the things that I love, you know, so again, as a leader, you can actually lead that response if you know that someone's being a bit cagey. And that's when you can actually be open. So if I am someone who I'm getting, I've done some self reflection, 20, 25, I find that, yeah, I'm, I, I feel that I'm ready to look for another role maybe. I've got a couple of interviews coming up. Can we just get into that kind of space now around interviews and how to prepare? Like, what do you need to prepare that you wouldn't think that was important in an interview?

Speaker C: Okay, all right. Well, I mean, obviously we're sort of stepping right past the, well, you know, how do you know what you want your next job to be and how do you find your next job and so on? Uh, we might come back to that either in this conversation or related conversation. But just in relation to interviewing, I think the first thing to understand is that the person who's interviewing you is probably not a professional interviewer, right? So just because somebody's, you know, the operations manager of blah blah company and, you know, they've done the job for 20 years and they've hired 200 people and so on, they're probably pretty crap at interviewing. And as a result of being pretty crap at interviewing, they either ask a lot of dumb questions. So if you were to describe yourself as an animal, what animal would you be and why? Or, or they talk too much and don't ask enough questions. So you feel you get to the end of an hour and all they've done is spoken about the job and you haven't had a chance to talk about yourself. Um, or, uh, they take phone calls during the interview or they're distracted or so many things. So the important thing is as the interviewee is to take control of the interview. And in my first book, Uncover the, um, Hidden Job Market, which is aimed, um, at the job seeker, there's an entire chapter, chapter seven on preparing for interviews. Right. So there's, there's two key things. Number one is walking in the room and saying to the person who's interviewing you, jan, look, I really appreciate you taking the time to interview me today. So, uh, for me to leave today and for you to think, I'm really pleased I've met with Richard, I've achieved what I was hoping for from this meeting. What would you like to achieve? Okay. And then Jaz says, well, I'd like to interview you about this particular role. Okay, obviously. And, uh, and what you want to try and do is get two or three things, maybe three or four things, and write them down. So write them down because then at the end of the interview you can say, okay, so Jan, at the beginning of the interview, you said that you wanted to, you know, understand my experience in implementing new SAP systems. Are you happy that I've answered that correct sufficiently? You ask? So not only are you making sure that you've fulfilled their expectations, I can guarantee you nobody else has done that. And it also leaves them with the impression of, wow, this person's really professional and thorough. Right? So such a simple thing to do. Nobody does it. Uh, it's, it's, it's an amazing question. But even more amazing than that question

Speaker A: is,

Speaker C: you know, an interviewer might ask you, you know, oh, okay, so you know, Jan, tell me, why are you the best person for the job? Or, you know, Jan, tell us a little bit, a bit about your experience, you know, around this job or whatever. And so the question to ask is, so what I'd like to understand is if we were sitting down in 12 months and you were doing my performance review, what would I have needed to achieve for you in 12 months for you to be absolutely delighted with my performance? 10 out of 10. And in fact, even if we broke it down to first three months, six months and 12 months. So let's say that I started in the job next, you know, next month. Okay, what are the critical things that you need me to do for you in the first three months? Well, the first thing is we've got this major client that we're having a big dispute with and, you know, we need to resolve that hopefully in a way that we can retain them as a client because at the moment, you know, it's costing us a million dollars a month. And the second thing we need to do is the people in the team, whilst they're really good hearted and they want to do a good job, there's not really been any good performance measurement put in place. So what we'd like in the first, um, three months is for, uh, each person to have a proper position description, including KPIs written for their role, so that you can present back on, uh, are the right people in the right job, whatever it is. Right. So. And again, you want them to give you a few things, and then you say, okay, excellent. Let me tell you when. I've done it before. Right. So what they want are, uh, the hooks that you hang your key achievements on. Companies want to hire people who've done it before, they've done it well, and they're motivated to do it again. That's what they want to hire. They want to hire. They want a trusted set of hands. And so if you can demonstrate that you can do it. Excellent. But if you go into the interview and you assume that you know what they want, you might start talking about things which are, uh, excellent. But they're thinking, we don't need any of that. M M. You know, and that happens a lot. Right. The analogy I use is, you know, I go and see a surgeon, and I walk in and the Surgeon says, oh, Mr. M. Triggs, great to see you. I'm so glad you came. I'm the best knee surgeon in town. Yeah, but, doctor, I don't have a sore knee. I've got a sore elbow. Right. What actually happens, you walk in and the doctor says, oh, Mr. M. Triggs, nice to see you. You know, what's going on? Oh, I've got this sore elbow. Oh. Describe it to me. Okay. Tell me about the pain. You know, where is the pain localized or is it spread out? Is the pain sharp or dull? Is it throbbing or electric? Is it, you know, let's do a scan, let's do a, uh. Let me do a physical examination, and then let me give you my prognosis as to what, what's wrong with your elbow. And if you want me to, how I would fix it for you. M. Right. Too many candidates are the first person. Oh, I've read your website, and I. I can see that you've got issues with blah, blah, blah, and I'm going to come in and I'm going to fix those issues.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. And whereas instead, if you say, what do you need?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Where are you in pain? Um, how can I help you to get out of pain? Then you will be at least in the top 2% of candidates being interviewed for a job.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because you're entering the conversation that they're having inside their head. And you can only do that if you listen and if you really question, you know, like, you actually get them to, you know, like, share with you what it is that they really need. And I love those tips because what you're demonstrating as a, uh, candidate is experience, achievement, confidence, accountability, like all those really important competencies that every kind of, you know, like leader or person who is, you know, entering a job needs. So can we just kind of stay in this realm? And then I'm going to ask you around, how do you know what your next role is and how do you go about it? But I just want to ask you about some skills or traits that companies are really looking for today. And has that evolved over the years?

Speaker C: Mhm. Again, it obviously comes down to the role, right? I mean, it'd be fair to say most companies would want people, and I'm doing myself out of a job here because most people would, most companies would want somebody who's at least got a basic awareness and knowledge of how do you send such a PT right now? I haven't got a clue. I've never turned it, um, on before. I've got somebody who works for me who does that, but I know that I need to do it. So in fact, I even bought a course for $300 and I haven't done the course yet. Right. So, so yeah, but obviously that's not important in all jobs. So, you know, it would be wrong to say, well, you must be an expert in ChatGPT. Certainly I would say rather than a particular, um, piece of education, it's more a commitment to ongoing education. Right. I've done an MBA. I, in fact did an executive MBA. Executive MBAs are, uh, ridiculously expensive. I would probably say an executive MBA at QUT now probably costs well in excess of $80,000. Right? But MBAs cost a lot of money and a lot of the time and I've done one and I value doing it. And certainly I'm not here to, you know, bag MBAs, but I would go and talk to a lot of graduating or end of course, students if MBAs, and to sort of talk about how to get a job. And I'd say, look, you know, what do you ask me some questions and then say, what's my MBA worth in the market? Or how more, you know, how much more senior a role can I apply for because I've got an mba? And I would say, well, unfortunately your MBA is not worth anything and your MBA is not going to get you a promotion at all. An mba, um, if you were being compared with other candidates who don't have MBAs. It may be a slight advantage, but employers want real practical examples of key achievements and transferable skills. The MBA was originally designed for somebody who's an engineer. They start to manage engineers, so they go to university to do a bit of strategy and a bit of finance and a bit of hr, or they're an architect or they're, uh, you know, their core professional qualification was not business. Right? Now you've got 26 year olds coming out of university with MBAs who have only ever worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken, right. They've completely and utterly devalued, you know, that qualification. So if, for example, you said, I'm a CFO or I aspire to be a CFO and I want to be the best CFO I can, then my suggestion would be don't do an mba, instead do further education, which is directly pertinent to your, uh, desired career. Right. Instead of going wide and shallow, go narrow and deep. And then of course, if you talk about more of the softer skills, which are often hard to necessarily identify. An interview. Of course they want people who are, uh, more inclusive leaders. They want people who, you know, more politically correct. They want people who have got the capacity to lead, you know, teams of much younger people who have very different expectations, uh, of their bosses. And for example, we used to. And so a lot of that comes out through somebody's professional experience. So I, for example, as an interviewer, uh, would not say to a candidate, oh, so tell me, you know, how do you lead young people? Instead it would be, tell me about a time where you had to complete a major project working with a very young team and how did you go about doing that and what worked really well and what didn't work so well and in hindsight, what would you have done differently, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Fundamentally, people want to employ, uh, those who've done it before, they've done it well, they're motivated to do it again. They want to see that the pebble in their shoe, you can fix that for them. Right? I don't really know there's much more I can say. And then of course the other thing too is do education on what you're interested in. Yeah, you know, I have no interest in using Canva, uh, to make pretty slides for my PowerPoint presentations. I know that I should. Right. But I'm just not wired. I don't want to do that. I'd rather go into a four year course in psychotherapy, which, you know that I've done. Right. To me that, that's what I love. Now. Am I ever going to work as a psychotherapist? Never. Are those skills beneficial to me working in my career? 100% they are. Ah, yeah. So, you know, I don't know. It's a tough one.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think you articulated it well, like, and even just that concept of demonstrating your experience, so it's a real case study that, where you actually achieve what they want to see from a candidate. And this idea of continuous learning, how can you demonstrate that you are a continuous learner? Like, what are the examples that you know, like you can share that are real and authentic? Because people have that, that, that, you know, like that bullshit meter, uh, where they kind of have a sense, are you really giving me everything or are you really holding back? And I think that's an interesting thing about, you know, when you're looking for your next role. It's not just, you know, like those people are interviewing you. You're kind of interviewing them because you want to have a really good kind of alignment.

Speaker C: Absolutely. The interview is as much about you doing your due diligence as on them as them doing it on you. And so coming back to that question, excuse me, you know, in, in the, in 12 months, what would I have needed to have done in order for you to be delighted by my performance? And they said to you, well, one of the things that we need you to do is to make sure that the photocopier has always got enough paper in it. I'm obviously being frivolous, right? You'd go, I don't want to do that. I did that 20 years ago. Uh, absolutely. You need to make sure. Because the last thing you want to do is to step into a new role and then suddenly go, uh, this job's nothing like I thought it was going to be. They've employed me as their chief marketing officer and yet every Friday I'm stuffing a thousand catalogs into envelopes and sticking stamps on them. Oh, it's a bit, it's a very hands on role. Well, sure, but. So yeah, the, the responsibility is on both the employer and on the employee. And I say to employees at any point in the process, you can say thanks for. No thanks.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, so if I'm, if I'm thinking about looking for, you know, my next role, what is, so, uh, what are the first couple of things that I could be doing that my next step?

Speaker C: Right. Well, okay. So again, my first book is very much on this, uh, idea of the hidden job market. So it is commonly held Belief that probably less than 20% of actual jobs get advertised get to a recruiter, uh, are in the open job market. 80%, in fact, I think more. But 80% of jobs are filled through the hidden job market. What does a hidden job market mean? A company finds somebody who can solve their problems and take away their pain and, and they hire them even if there isn't a job. And I mean, and even if you just think about it. So let's say, I mean, let's say I'm a CEO and my CFO resigns. I think to myself, who do I know that might be available and good for that job? Oh, I'm not really sure. So I talk to my executive team. Who do you guys know? So then I talk to my board. Who do you know? Then I might talk to members in my finance team, you know, who have you worked with previously that you might know? And then I might go, assuming I've got an internal recruitment team, I might go to them and say, who do you know? And then eventually I might go, oh, I'm going to have to pay a bloody recruiter $60,000 to recruit this role, right? Nobody jumps out of bed going, woohoo, I just spent $60,000 recruiting a CFO. It's a regrettable spend and people like to recruit people that they know and trust, right? So the first thing that I say to people is to decide who are your employers of choice. Now there's a step in front of that, which is, you know, do you want to stay in same job, same industry? Do you want a different job in the same industry? Do you want the same job but in a different industry? Or do you want a different job in a different industry? Right? I could talk about that for an hour, but we won't worry about that, right? So let's assume that you want same job, same industry, but you want a new boss, a new company, either because you're disgruntled or you might be moving or, uh, you might feel that your career is tapped out, where it is, whatever, right? So you think about who are, uh, my employers of choice, right? And you, and you start to say, okay, if I work in the mining industry and my employers of choice listed mining companies, then it's very easy to build a list of all the listed mining companies in Australia. Or, and then you say, okay, in that company, my role that I want is CFO, so I'm going to be reporting to the CEO. So I want to find the CEOs of those companies. I want to connect with them m on LinkedIn, and then I want to ask them for a 15 minute meeting. Okay? I'm not asking them for a job, so I'll come back to that in a minute. So I've identified the person, I reach out, I send them a connection request. Whether they connect with me or not. I send them an email and I say, hey, listen, Mary, we've not met before, but I'm wondering if you could help. I'm hoping you can help me, please. I'm starting to think about my next career move and I'd really appreciate it if I could have 15 minutes of your time on Zoom or Teams to get your advice about the market and where the right opportunities might be for me. Now, I'm not asking her for a job because she can only in that instance say yes or no or she might push me to hr and I don't want to talk to hr. Right? Uh, so instead I'm saying, can you help me, please? Well, people love to help people. And I'm asking for your advice, which is a nice ego, uh, stroke. And I'm only asking for 15 minutes of time M on Zoom, which most people can, you know, afford, especially if they look at your LinkedIn profile and they can see from looking at your LinkedIn profile that you're a legitimate candidate and you, you are worthy of their 15 minutes. Because part of their job is to build a bench of talent. So at the very least they're talking to somebody who could be somebody they could use in the future and give them a bit of gossip about the market. And it's just nice to meet nice people anyway. Right? I typically do upwards of 15 of these meetings a week. Right. So. And then once you're in front of them and you've built some rapport, then you say to them, look, if you don't mind me asking you, Mary, I think Mary, that was her name there. But if you don't mind me asking you, Mary, you know, what's the pebble in your shoe at the moment? What's keeping you awake at night? Mary goes, oh, Jan, you know, we've got this issue where we've got this major new ERP uh, project and it's running behind, but the person who is meant to run it has resigned. And we try to do it as quickly as possible, but we just don't have the resources and blah, blah, blah and D. And you say, if I could help you to fix that, would that be valuable? Jan, if you could help me to fix that, that would be amazing. Okay? Well, let me tell you when I've done it before, right? So it's the same thing as I talked about before, but in reverse. Where are you in pain? We need a new erp. Uh, asking enough questions to really peel the onion, right. And then saying, if I could help you to fix that. Right. Suddenly she goes, man, this Jan's awesome. Right? I don't need to go through this hugely expensive, you know, protracted recruitment process. I can just hire Jan and get on with business. Jan, do you want to come and work for me? Right, okay. But of course, it's a numbers game, right? So I say to people, and I've coached thousands of people through this. Again, I don't coach people for money, just through talking to people and running workshops and so on, is that if you just every day and they already. Your diary, in that one hour, you identify three employees of choice, you identify the three key decision makers, you send them three LinkedIn connections, and you send them three emails asking for a 15 minute meeting. Three a day, three a day, three a day, 3 day, 3, day, 15 a week. That should get you a minimum of two to three meetings a week. If it's not getting you two to three meetings, you're either reaching out to the wrong people or you're not doing it properly. If you either way, read my book, right? But 15, um, a week, I pretty much guarantee that if you do that for 12 weeks, you'll have a new job. In fact, I would almost say for certain, if you just reach out to three people a day and ask for three meetings a day and end up having three meetings a week, within 12 weeks you'll have a new job. And the interesting thing is, in my book and my webinars and so on, I laid out, uh, a absolute precise methodology, including what to write in the email, how to run the meeting, how to follow up on the meeting, how to talk to recruiters, how to work with recruiters. And I've probably sold or given away Now, I'd say 20,000 copies of that book. I would say less than 2% do anything.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say that. Who are the ones that actually take that action? Because they either don't have the courage, they don't want it enough. It's like, do I have to do all of that? Because if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. And that's what I love about your work, Richard. It is very practical and actionable. And I hope people have, you know, like, I always take copious notes when I speak to people who I'm interested in, because I just want to share with my people. And the other thing I just wanted to say before I wrap up is I love your turns of phrases. So you're not asking what their problem is, you know, what is the pebble in your shoe? Because no one wants to admit that they've got a problem or they don't know how to solve it and things like that. And I love how you go into nuances like that, and I really appreciate how you, um, communicate. So, um, just to wrap up, um, Richard, what are you working on right now that's exciting for you?

Speaker C: Well, uh, so I've just released my second book, um, uh, which is called Winning the War for Talent. How to Attract and Retain Top Performers. And what I'm hoping to do, and what I really enjoy doing is going and running in house workshops for leadership teams and boards on how to hire. Right. And then the next stage of that, which I'm just starting to do now, is to actually coach the person in the business who is empowered to do their recruitment to make sure that they're doing it to the best of their ability. Because the reality is, just like most people looking for a job aren't very good at looking for a job. Most companies hiring are, uh, terrible at hiring. And yet there's some very simple things that they could do which could dramatically improve both the quality and the quantity of people that they hire and also the engagement and longevity of these hires. And so, uh, that's what I'm excited about. But of course, in the meantime, how do I make my money? You know, I have a team of people who, where we are, uh, headhunters. So, you know, if. If somebody's listening to this and they go, oh, we've got a role we're really struggling to fill, you know, we can provide a very affordable headhunting solution for you. But if you're thinking we could definitely do with some greater education about how to recruit than what I could coach the head of recruitment for, typically three to four months. It's not much m. Uh, longer. So for less than the cost of one hire, they can have me train their team in how to be so much more effective. So that's a, uh, newer thing that I'm doing. I'm just really getting that off the ground. But that's what I'm excited about.

Speaker B: Yeah, and what a useful, you know, like, service, uh, offering. Because, like you said, a lot of people don't really understand the machinations of, you know, interviewing and retaining Talent and all that. And you're lifting the capability of the organization when you do that. So, Richard, how do people make contact with you?

Speaker C: Well, I am, I am a very visible person on LinkedIn, but the thing with LinkedIn is you're only allowed a maximum of 30,000 connections. So I'm constantly sitting at around 29,000. So I probably get about 100 connection requests a week. And, and so don't send me a connection request because I'll probably say no. Not because you're a bad person, but because I just, I have no room. So the best way is either send me a direct message via LinkedIn or just go to my company website, Arete Executive, and send an email through there if you want a free copy of my book, Uncover the Hidden Job Market. We give those away for free seekers and a monthly Ask Me Anything webinar, uh, for hiring managers. They're both completely free and, and you can again join our newsletter, uh, and get dates and come along to one of those and, you know, listen to me pontificate for, you know, hours on end about all sorts of weird and wonderful things, depending on which way the conversation goes.

Speaker B: Love it. What? And I'm just thinking, you know, for the people who are listening now, that is gold. You know, like, not only have they some really practical, actionable strategies, they've got some resources and tools. They can connect with someone who is in the business doing, you know, like, some awesome work and really keeping up with the expectations of, you know, like, the industry. So thank you so much, Richard. That has been a very rich conversation. I really appreciate it. And I think what we will do is we're going to have another session with you and, and we're going to focus on the hiring. So how do you actually retain and attract talent? And so that will be the flip side of a conversation.

Speaker C: Great. And I, uh, look forward to reciprocating and having you as a guest on the Areto podcast.

Speaker B: Sure. Okay. Thanks, Richard.

Speaker C: All right, then. Have a great afternoon.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker C: Bye.

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