EP 39 - How Can Digital Platforms Close the Coverage Gap?

Speaker A: Hi, this is michael waits. And welcome back to insurance for the new possible at chubb conversation. We are joined today by nigel fellowes freeman, founder and CEO of canopy, and richard bracken, head of consumer partnerships for apac at chubb. In a world where digital ecosystems dominate how we live, work and transact, the insurance industry sees a massive opportunity. How to deliver protection that feels contextual, natural, and embedded seamlessly into the services that people already use. And this shift is not just about digitalization. It's about redefining how insurance is distributed, how risk is managed, and how the uninsured gain access to essential coverage. This episode of Insurance the New Possible investigates key questions shaping the future of insurance. What is the result of embedding protection directly into digital platforms? How can data driven ecosystem first strategies supplement traditional distribution models? And what role will technology play in reshaping risk mitigation and financial inclusion? Thank you both for joining Insurance for the New Possible. How are you doing today?

Speaker B: You're doing really well. Thank you. Huh? Really well.

Speaker C: Doing well. Excited.

Speaker A: It's great to have you back.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's great to be back.

Speaker A: It's weird. It's great to have you back.

Speaker B: Ish.

Speaker C: Ish.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's back ish in a way. I don't know how to say that. The right way. Okay, just jump right into this and let's start with you. Let's talk about embedded insurance. Right? This is the thing. How do you define seamless embedding into digital ecosystems? And why is it so important?

Speaker B: I think the definition and why it's important, I guess two different questions. In terms of, uh. Yeah, in terms of thinking about, um, why. Why is it important? I think the first thing in terms of importance is thinking about the insurance protection gap, thinking about, uh, the insurance that people need versus the insurance that people have access to. And I think embedding insurance really is part of the solve for that gap, which is giving and taking insurance to a person where and when they need it, versus them having to find it and buy it. And so I think that's really from the why. I think that's the biggest why in terms of embedding.

Speaker A: Okay, but let me ask you this though. You said the insurance that people need and the insurance that people have access to. So in some markets, are those two things the same? Or even do you think in, um, advanced markets or sophisticated markets that there is a gap there still?

Speaker B: Yeah, a big gap. And Rich, you'll probably talk to this, but I think some of the data shows that. I think the protection Gaps doubled over the last decade and that's the kind of the gap between the insurance people have and actually can that they need financially and socially to protect themselves. And so I think that's, it's only widening and that's kind of why this is such an important thing to think about, I think.

Speaker A: So do you want to talk about this widening and why is it widening?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think, look, I think, I mean to put a number on it, I think In APAC it's 390 billion US dollar gap and that's just mortality and gigantic. Yeah, and health. Just those two um, product lines, that's the gap. And it's principally because um, it's usually a face to face model in Asia where these larger ticket items have sold and then let's say the embedded's now coming in but typically it's more on the bite sized and then really it's how now that starts to evolve and with the super apps coming in and their access to all different kinds of transactional data and other things, then they're able to kind of do right time, right product, right coverage, uh, for consumers. So they're able to then um, meet the needs rather than the traditional face to face.

Speaker A: So how do we close this gap? Just to go to your example, right, in Asia where we live, in Southeast Asia, particularly where we live there is this face to face model. I bought my health insurance, I've said this to you before, just from a lady sitting in front of me with an iPad. Right. So it was very face to face ish with some technology. But you're right, embedded has generally been used for smaller types, simpler type policies. But the gaps that you're both talking about are sophisticated or more complex. Where does embedded come in to kind of make to help close that gap?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think the way it starts is that now that there's the super apps out there and they've got millions of customers and the digital ecosystems, highly uh, engaged customers who are going on their apps on a regular basis. As a result of that then they're getting data points on transactions, demographics, geolocation, all these amazing rich data sources which then you combine that with things that Canopy does as well as Chubb Studio where we have the ability to break down now insurance into to a coverage level. So we're having more granular kind of products then that can match those data points and offer just in time propositions for consumers.

Speaker A: Got it, got it, got it. So we're really reaching like embedded 2.0 in a way or maybe 3.0. I don't want to attach a number to it but in the sense that when we first started talking about this it was more just like we need to find a way to put it into the journey of where people are buying insurance. And now we're thinking hey how can we get way more sophisticated things because we have way more data. Is that fair?

Speaker B: Exactly. And I said you can identify in terms of which is the more you know about the customer then you can understand you, you know the customer, you know the data points from the customer and you have a suite of products that are broken down to a granular kind of coverage level. Then you can put those different pieces of coverage for different customers and so they solve the customer need at the point in the point in time that they want the one. The product.

Speaker C: Yeah I would just add as well, I think there's also the, the expectations of customers have also shifted very much.

Speaker B: Go ahead.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, so, so the consumers no longer when it comes to kind of like standalone fill out this application form online or whatever. I mean your drop off rate is going to be quite substantial. So people expect a uh, kind of low friction, low touch, uh tick box style kind of experience against the coverage that's just right for them.

Speaker B: I think that comes from lending actually. I think lending if you look at um the financial services, a broad sector lending has done a really good job at ah taking lending to customers and I think it's actually given a quite a good blueprint for how insurance can do it in terms of um you now when you need a lending product is often within the applications that you spend a lot of time in. And so they've done a really good job of I think mapping out how insurance can do a little bit better.

Speaker A: Can you elaborate on that a little bit? When you say they put the lending in the places you're talking about like rental or buying a home or buying a car or something like that or any place where you maybe need to borrow money.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, like maybe a good um, ah like an analogy is some um of the cloud accounting platforms. So Your Xeros, your QuickBooks Online, those kind of guys have done a really good job understanding all the business information and then can like provide a business loan to the business at the point that they need the cash versus because you have all of the data on. So those kind of lending businesses have done a good job of integrating with those that the the right type of application.

Speaker A: Super interesting. Yeah, sorry, I hadn't thought about that as well. That's super interesting. Yeah. So if I'm using an accounting platform all the time, you have all of my business data and if you connect that somehow to a lending platform, they'll be like, you're short this month. Here's a short term loan. I know you can pay it back because I see the trend of your income, but you need this Money now. Here's $100,000 to pay your whatever. That's super interesting. You also mentioned this idea of customer behavioral change. One uh, of the reasons why I love catching up with you, right, is because, no, because we're not talking to each other every day. So in the interim things are changing. What types of customer behavioral change are you seeing? Right? And is it generational, is it technological, do you know what I mean? Or is it the case that like a person who's been interacting with insurance now is on Instagram, on Xero, on these other platforms and thinks I need to have this other type of behavior here which is going to help me buy more. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think automatically you assume it's kind of the young millennial digital natives that are kind of.

Speaker A: But I don't believe that for sure.

Speaker C: No. And the data that we have from the, you know, the, well I mean we sell uh, 500 million policies in digital policies in APAC per year. And the data that we see is that it's valued across demographics. So anyone using those apps and it's a very similar kind of take up rate across the different verticals. So people see their own need and their own gaps. And I think with the trust now with the super apps and they're happy then to kind of um, take advantage of these, these products and services.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it just leveled up. I think when you, you think about my parents, my parents are uh, nearly 80 and they, all of their e commerce is done on Amazon. They buy their presence or they, all those things are done there. Right. And so it must look like magic to them. Unbelievable. Right? And then the whole, the point of that is that they had now they've level set, right? They understand that they, they, they now interact and do all of those kind of experiences within these applications. And so the transition to expect to have all of your types of transactions brought to you that way makes a bunch of sense, I think.

Speaker A: So do we all have kids? Is that a fair presumption? So I was mentioning this to somebody a few weeks ago. I am surprised by how much my daughter is surprised by how digitally native I am. Do you have this? Because this gets back to this cohort idea, it's just a 21 year old who wants to have digitally native insurance. But are your kids surprised by how digitally savvy you are?

Speaker B: I'm not sure my 4 year old will quite have one or quite there yet.

Speaker A: Ah, my daughter's 24 so she definitely knows and she's like how do you know that? I'm like, well I just, no, I

Speaker C: look, you know and I was probably in my 20s when really kind of the digital stuff really kind of took off. But um, I look, I think still my, my children would have the edge. So I, I, you know, I might have a, you know, an 80 knowledge but that extra 20% they have carries a lot of weight. Well, find it when if I'm trying to do something on my phone or laptop and one of my kids is

Speaker A: with me, oh, they'll take it into it.

Speaker C: They'll just take uh, they'll come over my shoulder and basically sort of say there's a much quicker way of doing that dad. So that's the, they're good on shortcuts.

Speaker B: One interesting thing that just adds that I know my own seven and four so they're young but the seven year old, I saw this over the last few weeks actually now, um, doesn't type, just talks. And so because now using um, Gemini and ChatGPT and learning that kind of interaction style, now he goes to asking through words versus typing when he's using devices. And so is just something I've seen, just noticed recently which is my kind of go to approach is to type and his go to approach is to talk. And so I think that's an interesting interaction uh, thing we'll see over time in terms of how we interact with these platforms.

Speaker A: So this is one of the reasons why I asked these questions, right. Because that is actually really interesting. So do you think as technology progresses we're going to move over time away from this to you know, please tell me what my coverage is kind of thing and that becomes part of the insurance experience as well.

Speaker C: I mean the way I, the way I see it is that with Gen I and linking with large language models and then I think consumers have various apps that they go to, whether it's for E commerce, travel. I think we'll end up with a mapping of those from a consumer perspective where then automatically it kind of establishes what kind of coverage you would need and when you would need it. And so do you think about where voice fits in?

Speaker A: I think son?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think so, yeah. Why not?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So you can just talk to it and sort of say based upon, based

Speaker A: upon these things that I have and I'm 27 years old or whatever and I do these, you know, I play basketball every weekend. What kind of coverage that I have for this type of thing based on all these other things.

Speaker B: Right, because that's what I'm suggesting. I think about it when I just myself in terms of my lifetime, I've gone from writing to typing and now I want to try and write something. I get a sore hand after 15 minutes because I'm. All I'm doing is typing. And I think the same evolution will happen from writing to typing to talking. So I think, I think we'll see it. But how long will take, who knows. But I think in terms of um, the sophistication of the, the technology platforms to be able to take voice and then just put it into there, it's just another input style.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But, but it's, but you're. The way your brain around writing is different than it does around typing and it's almost completely different to speaking. Yeah, it's completely different. So I want to talk specifically about Canopy for a second. How do you help insurers integrate coverage into the services and stuff they're already doing? Like how does that work?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I guess when we were uh, trying to put the business together and think about how the big problems to solve. But working folks like Rich and Chubb, like from a perspective of large carriers, they've often got very sophisticated backend engines. They have a lot of pricing capabilities and built like awesome products like Chubb Studios that to be able to build these kind of partnerships direct. We found there was also an opportunity to say actually is there a way to work with those types of platforms to allow you to stand up products a bit faster and do one to many. And so we found that often um, the platforms that have been built allow you to build one to one. And so you build one big partnership. There's obviously Chubba but with some enormous kind of partnerships with large tier like large um, ecosystem players. But the second tier down from that they often doesn't make sense to um, to invest the capital to build one to one. And so actually you need a platform to build one to many. And so the Canopy platform can sit on top of any, the insurance platform and allow them to all of a sudden get a. No marginal cost of having 50 partners is one.

Speaker A: How does the feedback loop allow you to then develop? Because when you're, when you have this premise, this Idea of like I want to build this kind of business.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: You're kind of operating in a little bit of vacuum.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: We know this from running our own business. You're like this is going to be amazing. But you don't know until you kind of give it to somebody and start getting feedback. How does the feedback you get then inform what you build after that? If that makes sense.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're kind of fortunate that uh, they're fortunate that there's a, there's, there's large digital um, parts of these businesses that are um, very sophisticated. They've been in this world for a long time. They've been trying to solve these problems for a long time. And there's just parts of. Parts of insurers. Sometimes you can talk to this which you can't get some things through. Some things are just hard to get through. And so that feedback loop is actually pretty fast because there's a need and um, if we solve the need and there's a partner need, actually that feedback loop tends to happen pretty quickly with the right. With the right folks within the organization.

Speaker A: Yes. So what kind of stuff can't get through?

Speaker C: What stuff can't get through? The organ. What from a new product perspective is

Speaker A: all just, just in general. Like when you see something you pretty much know like yeah, we don't eat cake kind of thing.

Speaker C: You know what I um, I think, I mean I suppose it goes against the kind of criteria we have for bringing new partners. Maybe if I talk about that a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to ask you like how do you evaluate.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I mean we would see if they're, if they're a direct to customer type organization, a dtc. So then that's the starting point. What kind of scale they have? Do they have sufficient scale which goes to Nigel's point for us to justify the investment of the onboarding and the build partnered with that is really about their level of engagement. So you might have an E commerce platform that's daily. So then we can have smaller, smaller

Speaker A: tickets, justify that the volume is just insane.

Speaker C: Or it could be an online travel company where it's one twice a year type purchase. But it needs to be. It's a travel product, it's a larger product then it's often around then the products and services they have. Um, if it's something like a supermarket they say obviously we're not going to insure your milk as an example. So the affinity.

Speaker A: Would you do my avocados? This would help me a lot more

Speaker C: um, then the affinity doesn't quite work there. So it's also about the products and services and the match with a ah, affinity based insurance product.

Speaker A: Yeah. So can I ask both of you this, this is something I've been thinking about for a while again getting back to this idea that we've had multiple conversations. Have you seen customer behavior change over time enough to then change the way you're behaving as service providers?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think for us, absolutely. And I think it really, I think Covid gave it a bit of a nudge I would say and really push people online as a means of necessity really. So as a result of that then the adoption of the super apps online, uh, purchasers and that happened around the same time that all of a sudden payments became almost invisible and frictionless and then whether it's auto claims. So it was this intersection of these different forces that came together that then enabled a lot of the changes we see.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that. I agree. I think Covid was definitely ah, an accelerator. I think it was progressing, this has been progressing over the last decade probably of um, product businesses becoming kind m of marketplaces, then becoming ecosystems. I think we've seen that progression within the large super apps. And, and I think then the, the uh, everyone sat at home and doing it like being forced, maybe you used a uh, broker for a long time and now you're forced to kind of get coverage and all of a sudden the, the fear of is this possible gets eroded and so all of a sudden now we know it's possible so why would we go back? And so I think that's probably that

Speaker A: goes both ways as well. Right. So for companies like yours and yours, maybe beforehand it wouldn't have accelerated so fast, but now you're thinking, wait, there's all this stuff that we didn't necessarily not even think was possible to consider, but now that we had to do it, what else can we learn from this? Is that a fair premise as well? Do you know what I mean?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think. Well, I mean as we discussed earlier, we really kind of started with embedded and the small ticket stuff and then all of a sudden now, you know, Gen AI has kind of come in and the ability to, and the super apps growth and everything else and the ability then to kind of use this rich data source to really push uh, you know, the right meaningful products that give our customers the appropriate amount of COVID That's, that's the next foundation I think.

Speaker B: And I think that's the exact point. Right. The, the the very important thing here with, with any insurance product is that it is the right product at the right time for the right customer. And it's not that you're trying to like jam a, um, like a product off the shelf, jam it through another different channel. It's about really making sure you make your, giving the customer what they need.

Speaker A: Yeah. So there's an online platform and uh, we'll talk about this afterwards maybe, but there's an online platform that continuously asks me to do something that frankly doesn't work on their platform. And it's driving me completely nuts because every time I try to do it, it asks me to do it again anyway. It doesn't matter. But you're right because if it's not contextual in the right place or if it's not delivered at the right time, how do you. But it definitely doesn't matter. But how do you not measure. But how do you ensure, right, that you're trying to do this thing to make it easy? Right. Like I think some, someone we were talking to recently said if I'm topping up my phone, right, if I'm doing like my payment for my phone, maybe I should get offered screen protection because I'm already doing something related to my phone. But if like the first time I'm like, I don't need that or I already have it or whatever it is, how do you ensure like using technology or whatever it is that it's not intrusive later, right. That even if it's relevant that it doesn't become this thing that is intrusive? Well, you know, it's in the way.

Speaker C: Well, I think, well, we working with our partners, account management team, we get constant feedback. So we work on a day to day, week to week basis with the partners who then feedback the customer. Uh, uh, uh, we do surveys as well with the customers to understand how the product is perceived. But then just taking your example is that I think part of the problem at the moment is traditionally, let's say for the screen protect that you had, is that we would push out screen protect, um, to everybody. Right. So, and yet we know from that particular partner what kind of device the customers had, how old the device is, where they live, a lot of kind of demographic factors, the next iteration or more on the customer lifetime value side is then pushing the appropriate product and saying, hey, Michael, just got an iPhone, um, 16 Pro plus Max or whatever that would be. And then, so as part of that we're going to offer him a trade in or we're going to offer him device protection or something else which is an appropriate, which is an appropriate level of COVID rather than, you know, pushing a screen protect which, you know, may or may not cover your screen.

Speaker B: And I think that, I think the point there around, um, the knowledge, using the information really wisely is you feel like the application knows you and it's doing. And the partners are so critical in this because every application that you, um, every partner has a different user experience and they know their customers. They know where their customers spend time. They know what the job to be done when the customer comes into the platform is. And so you never want to get in way of those critical flows, but you want to like, give moments of delight to the customer and those kind of, uh, the partners know best in terms of their, um, their data and their customer. And so you work very, very closely with them to deliver the experience 100%.

Speaker C: I mean, so some of these organizations, you know, have got. When it comes to algorithms and customer models and segmentation are, uh, you know, leaps and bounds ahead. So it really is. Listening to them is important point.

Speaker A: What is your philosophy on data sharing? In other words? Uh, not improper data sharing, but I'm just saying, like, how comfortable are you and the people around you with like, I'm okay to share this data if I get something in return because we were having this conversation earlier with somebody else for me. And again, I think this is where I may be a little bit of an outlier just because of my age, but like, I'm pretty happy to share my data if I feel like I'm getting something back.

Speaker B: I think it's all about the value exchange. Um, I don't think people mind sharing information as long as the value exchange is true and fair. And so if you have a, if the customer has a sense that they're giving you everything and you're like giving nothing back, or you're giving a poor

Speaker A: value or you're even giving that data. I mean, you guys would never do that. But like, some companies would take that and sell.

Speaker B: Yeah. So as long as. Yeah, exactly. As long as the value exchange within the organ, within the experience is, is high, um, and it's fair, then people want, like, people want to have, um, better experiences with these applications. And, And I think there's a. I think maybe in the 2010s there was a worry about kind of sharing information with platforms, but I think I. We don't see that really much anymore. I don't know, Rich, you may, you may, but we don't see a bunch anymore, as long as you have all the right steps of data sharing and then you get a good value exchange in terms of the product that you give to the customer. We don't really see as much pushback now on people being worried about sharing information, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think from an individual level. Yeah, absolutely. I think when it comes to companies, then there's. There's a spectrum.

Speaker A: Sure, sure, sure.

Speaker C: So, you know, so as part of that, then, you know, we can work around not having PII data. So providing we know the kinds of things you're buying, the general area in which you live and some of these key factors, then we can pull enough together in order to do, um, propositions.

Speaker A: Are there. Are there things that people get wrong about, um, embedded insurance in the value that it brings? You know, I mean, like when you're going out and trying to convince people that, like, this is something you should employ because here it fits on your platform. Are there things that people get wrong about it where they just, like, misunderstand?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I think there can be a perception that it's just, you know, it's something that's basically just shoved in with the, with the product, um, without, you know, whereas the process is really. It needs to kind of, um, follow a customer's underlying need. So there needs to be a need, there needs to be a risk there that the consumer has. There also then needs to be, you know, a very good claims process. So for us, we want customers to claim and get that value back from it. And then as I mentioned earlier, there's the feedback loop as well from these organizations. So our partners will let us know pretty quickly if something isn't working and then we'll need to kind of pivot.

Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, I think, uh, just, uh, to extend that a little bit. I think if you. Again, going back 10 years, and then you think about the affinity models that existed with a lot of insurers before, like kind of Chubb Studios, and those kind of layers came in, those affinity models were more. I've got this product off the shelf. They've got a large distribution, kind of. Kind of large, um, distribution. And so I want to give that product off the shelf and get access to the large distribution. And so a lot of those type of businesses are the ones that maybe have some, um, uh, some pain and experience some pain in terms of a poor experience 10 years ago. And so I think they're the folks. There's some misunderstanding there, which is, isn't it just affinity 2.0? And I think that, but not really though. Right? But that's what I've done. Just an education piece with some of those folks.

Speaker A: That's a really good point.

Speaker B: That experience, that some of that affinity business, that this is actually a very different way of trying to deliver a product.

Speaker A: So something I think about a lot is what I'll call sort of information fragmentation.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And let's just go back to the old days where like wherever we were in our lives there were like three TV channels and if I wanted to learn something, whether you want to learn something or I want to learn something, we may go to the exact same source to find it. Right. But now we may go to different sources, our kids go to different sources than we do. But how do we make sure that that like objective truth that's getting to them is still giving them, particularly from a product information standpoint, still giving them the right information so they can make the right decisions about what they want. Like I get it from the company side, right? Access to data and all this other stuff. But from a consumer standpoint, how do we think about that? Information fragmentation and even though the truth ends up being the same, but just getting it from a completely different source, like in some ways TikTok is one place where I can get information from somebody else may get it from LinkedIn, but it still should be. How do you think about that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not sure, um, what you kind of go into there in terms of information, it doesn't really matter where the source is. Right. I suppose from a perspective of as long as the, when you're thinking about it from an insurance standpoint and you're trying to give a customer a product, really you're getting information which is kind of first party information from the platform that it's in. And so I, uh, guess from that perspective it doesn't really. The segment, the, the, I guess the um, fraction of breaking up the data across lots of different places I don't think has a massive impact. I don't know Rich, you may have a different opinion.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think my, my broader kind of concern is that now I think it's starting to narrow. So for example, we go to certain Geni AI platforms which go across the whole Internet and then present an answer to us in a very. And then we, we believe the answer. Right. And then we, we take action on that. So I think that's the, the next, uh, you know, interesting.

Speaker A: Well, but it's a risk though, right? Because you're right. If I go to this platform, this platform or this platform, I ask it a question, they're just going out and going, I don't necessarily know for sure but this is the best I got. And then they just give it to you. You're not really sure if even they know that that's 100% right?

Speaker C: No. And they're not particularly transparent.

Speaker A: Yeah, not particularly transparent about saying whether they're 100% sure about it. Um, we talked about this before we started recording. Right. But many underserved segments remained um, underinsured and mainly because traditional distribution just wasn't able to reach them or maybe it was too complex. How does like having a data driven first ecosystem help close that gap? Right. And also close the gap that we talked about at the beginning of the, of the recording.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I think still in apac, uh, most premium insurance sales will come from face to face or call center based. Digital is the fastest growing um, distribution channel. But it's still got a way to catch up before it gets to those um, and I think it's really about, is where they were sold. So particularly they were sold to socioeconomic A's and social B's and maybe upper C's. And then there's this massive mass, you know, the mass market gap where you know, it's not often worth the time and the effort in order to have these, let's say more clunky, more inefficient, say face to face based. Especially if you've got to go for the traffic and go and meet with people. So I think that's what you know and we've really evolved let's say with companies such as nubank and others where we're able then to start going up the value curve and offer live products on subscription based models and really prove out that you can actually sell these more complicated um, life and GI products via digital to digital means. And I think that will just grow and grow. That's the way I see it.

Speaker A: So one of the other things that we were thinking about and we had this conversation a while back with some other people was the financial inclusion in a particular country was 80% but the financial um, knowledge was where they felt like they were like financially literate was at 66%. So there was a gap between like what I feel comfortable that I know, but also what I've already bought. How do we end up closing that gap?

Speaker B: It probably comes down to, it probably comes down to some of the things that Richard talked about in terms of, we spoke about a lot today. Comes back to data, comes back to the Knowledge of the customer.

Speaker A: Go ahead.

Speaker B: Comes back to kind of then how you then educate that customer with the data that you have with them of what's available. Um, and maybe that the, the literacy, not just when you talk about financial literacy, insurance literacy. Rich and I are in the insurance industry and there's some things that still I don't know. And so I think like if you can imagine if you from, from a customer's perspective there's um, taking them up the, that that literacy curve and from an insurance product perspective, which is why breaking coverages down and, and not giving uh, like a really a huge product with massive wordings and maybe the customers understand what they're getting. But how do you then deliver like a more granular product that's the slightly different covers and then you give the customer at the moment of need versus them. Buying a product, buying a service and then going look for a product. Actually taking that product to the. At the right time, within the right context helps like evolve that kind of learning.

Speaker A: I love all these things are interconnected. Feel like the necessity to disaggregate more complex products to sort of address this idea of financial literacy and then really simplify what the documentation understanding is around. It filters up maybe to some more complex products where you're like not you per se, but where people think we could actually simplify some of this too and then make it easier to distribute because it's more easily understandable, you know, because like you said, if you're dealing with A, B and C, if I got this right, but there's this massive cohort down here that can only sort of do micro insurance. But it has to be super simple that when you think about that simplification you think hey maybe if we simplified some of this stuff too.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, I think over time it will, it will evolve all the way through. Yeah. So, um, Whereas I think even the more complex products we've broken down and again um, they'll be matched to as we mentioned around the data. So the data will then drive the recommendations on the product base upon your demographics based upon the kind of transactions you do which present an appropriate cover to a level that it would hard even for an agent with a lot of experience to be able to kind of match. Especially when you throw in Gen I and some other. You know, it's going to be.

Speaker A: You've been thinking about this a lot.

Speaker C: I like this.

Speaker A: Go ahead.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think that's really where it will kind of evolve. It will take some time, but it's Only a matter of time before we get there. Um, but there's still, I mean, the other part of it as well. There's still some kind of, um, compliance and legislation things you have to get over in order to kind of get to that point. But, uh, you know, that will also happen, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think a lot of that was also driven by who was purchasing. Right. So I can make all these rules around what is and isn't necessary based on a cohort of people that are participating in the market. But then once a whole new cohort joins the market it at, you know, from a micro insurance standpoint, the people that are making the rules are also gonna have to think, are these rules still correct? Right. So it's gonna filter into that as well. Um, both of you have mentioned a bunch of times during this conversation, data this, data that, data this, data that. Um, how do you address these issues around, like the data sharing that you're doing with each other?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: How do you, how do you address that? In other words, like, what do we get to know? Because I'm sure you're not using like zero knowledge proofs to be able to share information. Like, how do you decide what's shareable and what isn't?

Speaker C: Uh, well, I think that's evolving again with, again with the customer needs and demands in terms of the products and services we present and as we present more complex products. So as a foundation, let's say if it's a simple kind of embedded product, then all we might need to know is the purchase price and the product category. Fair enough, right?

Speaker A: That the consumer has purchased.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolute, absolutely. But then if we want to go to where we're presenting with contextual, Just in time, right. Coverage, this utopia is that we're going to need a lot more, um, data points to come from the partner side so that we can kind of do the right matching. And that's where we work with companies, uh, such as Canopy, in order to kind of work together with the partners to figure out where their appetite is and sharing the different elements we need.

Speaker A: What does success look like for you?

Speaker B: The very thing that we spoke about right at the top of the conversation today, which is the protection gap. When I think about that from a business's mission perspective in terms of what we're trying to do, like I think this, uh, Canopy will be success if we're able to have an impact, a meaningful impact, and improve people's lives by reducing the protection gap and getting people the protection they need when they need it. And if we can do that, if we can have a global impact on that, and in that moment of need, a customer has the product that they need to protect them by kind of financially and socially. I think that's, uh, that's something that I guess in the business and around that, around the. All the folks in the company, I try and drive into them. And that's really what we care about. Everything else, we get that right. Everything else works. I think if you kind of put that at the core of all your decision making, then I think that looks like success.

Speaker A: One more thing, just a little bit whimsical. What's the craziest idea about it in bed? Insurance that you believe is still worth pursuing where you. I, uh, love Martin's. Laughing everywhere. I love asking this. Where it's like, you know, it's the right thing to do, but you're sure you're gonna have to convince people that it's the right thing to do.

Speaker B: I. I've got one thing to say, but I think it's crazy. Okay, good meeting. I think it's. But.

Speaker A: But you still feel like you have to convince people that it's the reason.

Speaker B: Convincing. But I think we'll, uh. I think if you play this conversation back in 24 months, I think we're like. But nothing is much less crazy than we think.

Speaker A: Okay, but that's perfect. That's the exact idea I want.

Speaker B: Yeah. So in the business today, we're spending a lot of time thinking about agentic. We're thinking a lot about how agents are going to start. We're going to start interacting through agents in terms of services. And so if you think about it from a distribution standpoint and access to product, those agents don't really interact with rest APIs, which is kind of how um, products work today.

Speaker A: Yeah, they don't.

Speaker B: And so really they need to kind of. There's a new paradigm called an mcp.

Speaker A: What's that stand for?

Speaker B: Um, Model Context Protocol. It was built and, um, put together by Anthropic, one of the large model providers. You can kind of think about it a little bit like a USB C. And it's like. It's the way that the agents.

Speaker A: Everything plugs in.

Speaker B: Everything plugs in.

Speaker A: So it's not an API per se, but it's kind of acting in a similar way.

Speaker B: Ah, exactly right. It's the way that agents can connect into products. And so I think we'll see, um, both folks like Chubb and ourselves and everyone will have these MCP layers for the agents to be able to access product and so whenever you're in other um platforms whether it's gemini whether it's ChatGPT whether it's Nubank that has their own kind of agents that are working within the platform those agents will go off and access the product and come back and so they'll need an MCP layer to do that and so I think the crazy idea we'll see is that carriers that don't do that and don't get on that bandwagon will will really struggle to kind of get cut through when it comes down to agents and those that do I think will pull away and so I think that's the one thing we'll see is that agentic um will happen and MCP will be a requirement for it.

Speaker A: Nigel, fellow streaming founder and CEO at Canopy and Richard Bracken head of Consumer Partnerships Apaca Chubb thank you both for joining this and thank you. Thanks for coming to Insurance for the

Speaker B: new possible Appreciate your time M thank you.