The Two Silent Killers Destroying Sales Careers (And How To Beat Them) | EP25 | Jessica Williams

Mark Ackers: Hi everyone. Here's what's coming up in today's episode. My guest started out in banking, selling mortgages and managing high net worth clients. Spent over a decade in corporate sales and boardrooms before making the leap in 2015 to start their own business.

Since then, they've also trained over 5000 people and run and host the SME conference, an event I'm very much looking forward to speaking at, and is about to begin a doctorate focused on making sales a more ethical and sustainable profession. My guest today is Jessica Williams, did you used to be crap at sales? Yes. How crap are we talking on a scale of one to 10?

Honestly, I think like a one, sometimes I have let my facial expressions get the better of me, and sometimes my facial expressions say far more than I should really. They describe me as raw. So I'm not sure whether that was a compliment or what, but I'm from Yorkshire, so I'm renowned of saying it as it is. We've spoken about two of the biggest killers in the sales profession.

Is need for approval and imposter syndrome. I was thinking, Who the hell am I to do all of this? Who the hell am I to be able to, you know, to hold these positions. And I let that get inside my head.

You said I had to do something about it. What did you do? 75% of that is here. And if you don't get that sorted, it's a really dark place to be.

I got to the point where I was doing all of that and nothing was making a difference. I was like, Okay, our perception, which isn't reality of how successful someone else has been or what they're doing. And I think that can be a really, really negative trait, and I think it's easy to get sucked into that we're responsible to turn ourselves around. If you were to start again today, what's the one thing you do differently to accelerate your journey.

Hello and welcome to another episode of The I used to be crap at sales Podcast. I'm Mark Akers, your host, the co founder and Head of Sales here at my sales coach, you'll know the crack Buy Now this podcast is where we cut through the noise and the glossy headlines and get into the messy truth about building a sales career that actually works, my guest today has very much lived that journey. My guest started out in banking, selling mortgages and managing high net worth clients.

Spent over a decade in corporate sales and boardrooms before making the leap in 2015 to start their own business. Just Williams, a hybrid sales and marketing agency built on relationships, not gimmicks. Since then, they've also trained over 5000 people and run and host the SME conference, an event I'm very much looking forward to speaking at in October this year. They also sit on multiple boards.

Is a fellow at Northumbria University and is about to begin a doctorate focused on making sales a more ethical and sustainable profession. Personally, they're also an avid runner and outdoor explorer who's completed 13 marathons, including Ultras, helping to raise over 50,000 pounds for charities to date, and a mantra, business can and should be a force for good. My guest today is Jessica Williams, Jessica, welcome to the studio. How are you?

Jessica Williams: I'm very well. I mean pressure after that introduction, right? Do you know what? I get a lot of good feedback on the intros.

I do work hard on them. That's very impressive. Honestly, I feel like you should be my voice over from now on. Can you rewrite my LinkedIn profile please?

Mark Ackers: We can discuss that. Yeah, absolutely. Jessica, thanks so much for coming to studio. We've had many in person podcasts, but for a while, there's been a number of online.

So it's great to have someone back in the studio and sat in the orange chairs. Chairs you claim to be very comfortable. Honestly, they're super comfy, and now I know where they're from. Thanks to your colleagues, I may purchase one.

So we always start of a yes, no question. Jessica Williams, did you used to be crap at sales? Yes. How crap are we talking on a scale of one to 10?

Well, honestly, I think, like a one, I think I was pretty bad. Okay, maybe a two, one of the things I always like to ask I've always loved chatting to people, but I don't think I understood the importance of the closing. Ironically, right? So maybe a two?

guests, because I've got so many I can think of personally. But if you just reflect back on your career, is there a particular like Howler of a mistake that you've made that's really bitten you that you could share? This a funny story. I'm definitely quite I was described.

Actually, I did a keynote on Friday, and I asked them why they asked, you know, they asked me, and apparently they described me as raw. So I'm not sure whether that was a compliment or what, but I'm from Yorkshire, so I'm renowned of saying it as it is, and sometimes I have let my facial expressions get the better of me, okay? And sometimes my facial expressions say far more than I should really. So definitely I've kind of been seen wincing, kind of in meetings and kind of go, you know, in quite a lot of situations, I am better at controlling my facial expressions now and not saying what I think as much.

So I think there's quite a few times where, yeah, I've probably either said the wrong thing and been very, very direct, or my facial expressions have indicated. Stated absolutely how I'm feeling, even though my body language was pretty much kind of contained, sent wrong, you know, sent wrong emails. I did have a situation where I signed off an email remarkably inappropriately, by accident, using very inappropriate word. And yeah, I didn't, didn't hear from that prospect again.

Or what did you use? It was, it was not a good word. So let's start early in your career. You started financial services, mortgages, private banking, advising high net worth clients at Yorkshire bank.

How did you first get into sales? Was that by design or was that by accident? going to be very, very honest here with you. So I was a little bit naughty at school and got kicked out, much to my parents' dismay.

So I was very fortunate to go to an all private girls school, and my parents, I think, had much higher hopes for me than perhaps I yeah, I believed in and yeah, I had a pretty, pretty, pretty rubbish childhood, to be honest with you, for lots of different reasons, and I'll come on to that in a minute. But in essence, I left school after GCSEs, not on a voluntary basis, and start, kind of didn't really know what to do. And that's how I ended up joining the bank, because it was kind of a part time cashier role.

You know, I literally started as a cashier at the Yorkshire bank in Sheffield and worked kind of my way up the ladder, and realised pretty quickly that I enjoyed interacting with people and got into kind of a pretty, pretty much a sales role within two years. So talks about the weight of expectations of parents, I suppose, for context, what did your parents do for a living? So my parents are separated when I was young. My dad ran his own very successful and still has a very remarkably successful business, and my mum and stepdad ran a leisure business called just Williams leisure.

You'll see where the link goes now. So both of my parents run their own businesses. I had a pretty, pretty rubbish childhood. My little brother died when he was seven years old.

Sorry to bring the tone down, but that's one of the reasons it's called just Williams is named after him, and that drove me, but it did put a lot of pressure on me, a huge amount of pressure, and I probably put quite a lot of pressure on myself to succeed as well. And I think also that's why I learned very quickly. And it's something that concerns me about, you know, the generations that followed me, is that ability to communicate with anybody. So from being very young, because my little brother was you, was was ill, I interacted with adults, left, right and centre in lots of different contexts, in lots of different ways.

So I learned how to communicate. I suppose just you referred him as your little brother. How old were you? I was 13 when he died, right?

And he was seven when he died. And so you're having conversations with adults as a 13 year old, about right, okay, yeah, from even younger than that as well. So, you know, I think it taught me how to converse. It really shaped the rest of my life, not, I'm not, you know, I don't believe in playing the victim in any way, but it shaped the rest of my life in terms of my drive, in terms of my ability to communicate with people, and probably led me directly to my to my path to sales.

I can totally understand what you're saying in a sense of communication, and learn to communicate with different people. And the skill that that really teaches you in because that's what it is in sales, is the ability to speak to different people at different levels, at different times, and alter how you communicate. So I think learning that at a young age, I can see how that's really helped in the career you're in today. So you've got two parents that have got their own successful businesses.

They they obviously want the very best you, like any parent would what, what career did they want for you? So I think they wanted me to go into the legal profession. So I remember, though, did you do like careers, like one of these weird assessments? So I did one.

I did one. I remember it came out I was going to be like a florist or a beautician. I don't know what I answered, but yeah, I think there was a there was a lofty sense that actually, I would probably be in the legal profession. Ironically, my grandpa and my mum's side set up the, what was then the Institute of sales and marketing in Yorkshire, so he kind of led that.

So a lot of my and my dad's in sales, so, you know. And I think being your own, running your own business, everyone's in sales, right? So I think it was kind of natural to me to kind of fall into that. Maybe, yeah, I can see why we pull towards that.

And we've had a lot of guests talk about their parents being in sales, them overhearing sales conversations, understanding about commission and what that leads to, etc. I suppose it's interesting. Therefore, if your parents, when you go in the legal route, and then you've gone down the sales route, sometimes that can be difficult. And I've spoken about that, almost being a little bit embarrassed to tell my parents I'm in sales and I make cold calls.

Did you have that feeling or not as such? Because Absolutely. And it's like, well, I was in banking, wasn't I for 11 years so, and then I think my grandma, God, rest her soul. She passed away last year, but she definitely told everyone I had a PR company, even though I've had it for like 10 years.

So, yeah, I think there's, you know, my dad gets it. I think, I think they both get it, really. But, you know, I think there's a lot of people that still have that negative association. From a sales perspective, I think the fact that it's my own company obviously has helped enormously.

I named it obviously after their business in legacy to them and my little brother so but, yeah, but I do think there is still such a negative association with sales. I'm always conscious when we talk about something, what I'm about to say now, people listening to this podcast will be the same as us, because they're listening to sales podcast. They want to improve, they want to learn. But really, we can all be guilty of thinking the profession and the image of possession is changing.

It's not it's just our bubble. And like, do you think it's changing a bit, though, if you go and ask the average person on the street what they think of a sales person, there is still a negative association, isn't that? Yeah, I think it's just our bubble, our network, who we hang out with. And like I say, people listen to this podcast will be of the similar mantra, and you can just be guilty of thinking the profession's getting better.

It's just who we interact with. So we're in banking. You worked there during the 2008 credit crunch. What was that like?

Really challenging. And I think that was a really, without sounding cliche, a really big shift in my career and my mentality. And you know, I understood and I loved working in that industry at a very challenging time. But it became very apparent that relationships were really, really important to me.

And actually I developed some amazing relationships with with with my clients, but because of, obviously, the nature of what was happening in, you know, in the crash, that we were being forced to make decisions that were based on, not the relationships that we had, but in essence, the the industries that that these organisations were in. And I think, you know, that was, I found that really challenging. We had to make some really, you know, we were, as an organisation, we were massively overly exposed in certain markets.

So, you know, we had to, you know, my expertise was in the in the property side of things. So, you know, we had to make some really tough calls. It did, however, shift me, my mindset massively to realise that just because you run a well performing business, and it might otherwise poor performing sector. It absolutely is all about the individual.

And for me, it was kind of the turning point in terms of thinking. For me, it is about, you know, the integrity of the individual running that organisation, not necessarily the sector they're in. So, you know, it was a bit of a shifting moment. And, you know, it was clear that there was a lack of investment in the market, for the industry, well, for the for the organisation I was working for, and it was at that time, or just after that, I started doing a lot of work on a corporate social responsibility basis for the bank, and made connections with the entrepreneurs forum and started our kind of outreach in that field.

So that was kind of the turning point that made me really think about my future career and where it was going. Because it wasn't about relationship, it was about ticking a box, and it was about a sector. And that didn't sit well with me at all. Why not?

Because actually, for me, everything is about relationships. You know, I'm a massive, massive advocate for, you know, the key factors that make up a really strong relationship in business or or personally. And you know, it was about the fact that, you know, the, you know, obviously change happened in a market. I absolutely get that, but it was the it was the fact that, you know, the relationships that we had, that I had with my clients, etc, were really being tested and compromised.

And it wasn't necessarily something that I fully believed in at the time. So I really struggled with that. And when you talk about relationship and it matters. I think anyone listening will go, of course, having great relationships is only a good thing.

What do you define as a great relationship with your customers versus perhaps what someone's standard definition might be? Well, and I suppose it's semantics, really, isn't it? Everyone will have a different definition for me. You know, we as an organisation stand for years, and our business as a force for good.

So, you know, for me, it is important to have that alignment of values, and I don't mean that in a fluffy sense at all, is you've got to have a similar outlook to a certain extent. You've got to have that trust there. You've got to have that openness. I think that's really, really important, and that ability to be able to communicate openly, that's really, really important integrity is, you know, hugely important.

And I think, you know, are you working towards a common goal, you know, so from a business perspective or a personal perspective, is, what are you trying to achieve together? And so for me, the kind of relationship aspect is, is a really kind of key FOSS to my business and who I am as a person. And I can, I can I can tell that by the way you've answered the question. What was really interesting is you use the word Trust.

And I think if you don't have trust, yeah, anything exactly, but what you didn't use was the words or or leaning towards like, being liked or being loved. It's about trust. It's about working together. It's about a common goal.

And one of the things I've seen throughout my career is sales people struggle with the need to be liked, the need for approval, and that is around, you know, I want my customers and prospects to like me, to love me. I want to get but as I say, You didn't mention that. You mentioned about trust, and do you walk that line quite well where, obviously you want to be liked, right? You don't want to not be liked by your kind.

Lessons, but trust feels like basically what you're saying, very literally, about two weeks ago, finished the book The Art of being disliked. Literally, two weeks ago, I was smiling because, yeah, I mean, I think notoriously, if you you know, I don't know what the statistics are, but I think a lot of us are more people pleasers tendencies than we like to think. And I think sales people, you know, we have that, I'm generalising, a lot of us have that constant need for gratification, and, you know, being satisfied and getting the return that we're looking for.

But I do think, you know, I, I run a business, you know, I can't, I can't be liked all the time. I don't want to be disliked, but I don't necessarily have a need to be liked. And I think that's a really difficult line and something to say out loud, because I think people's perception of you, when you say that's like, Oh, you're arrogant, isn't it, though, if you say, Well, I don't need to be liked, that's like, well, what? You're arrogant.

And it's not about that. It's about, you know, I'm very I'm very driven, I'm very focused, and so for me, it's about, I'm here to achieve what I need to achieve. Now that's on a relationship based approach, but it's results driven ultimately. So, you know, am I?

Is everyone gonna like me? Absolutely not. And I know there's lots of people out there that don't I'm pretty much like Marmite because I say it as it is, but you know, that's okay. And how long have you been like that, of that mindset where you don't need to be liked probably, I mean, my business has been going.

We turned 10 earlier on this year, so I think that took a long time. Realistically, I think it's probably only in the last few years. And as I say, you know, I'm really conscious. I feel like quite conscious saying it out loud, because I feel like it sounds really arrogant.

And it's not about arrogance. It's, you know, the key thing that I've learned over the last few years. And again, I'm not suggesting I'm perfect in any way, but it's about setting boundaries. You know, for me, about, you know, I'm very purpose driven.

I'm very goal driven. I'm very focused, and not all the time. By the way, I had some great white wine on Friday night, and that was not focused. But, you know, I'm, I'm very clear about what I need to achieve, and I think it's taken me a long time to appreciate that.

Actually, I don't need to please everybody, and I don't need to be, you know, everyone's best friend. And I actually can be controversial. That's who I'm. It's taken me a long time to kind of the word authentic is totally overused, I think, but I am myself now, and I say it as it is.

And maybe I don't know, I've earned the right to do that. Maybe I've just, you know, you know, I've got to an age where I can, maybe I'm more caught. I don't know what it is, Mark honestly like, but I think it's not that I'm arrogant. I feel like I'm justifying it now because it is.

It's a strange thing to say, but, you know, I'm pretty confident in who I am. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I don't need people to love me or like me anymore like I used to. I think what's interesting is, how did you realise that you needed to make that shift? Did someone point it out to you, or was there a moment when you thought, I'm being a people pleaser here?

I had a couple of tough situations that I was part of for a long time, and had a really tough time about three, four years ago, which, as I said, I've never really talked about. Ironically, I was doing a keynote on Friday, and I talked about my journey for the first time, like my personal journey, because I can talk about sales and marketing till the time till the guys come home. Till the cars come home, but I've never really talked about my journey, and I said it then, you know.

And I think it was a real shift for me that I made a conscious decision that you can't exert your energy trying to keep everyone else happy to your own detriment, you know. And I use the example of Christmas, right? Sorry to say the word Christmas, but, you know, and you just like, you just try and keep everyone else happy, and you're like, the only person that's unhappy is yourself. You know, I think you get to a point where you have to have really clear boundaries.

You have to be confident in your own ability. You know, you have to be able to back that up from a credibility perspective. I'm not just saying everyone's confident in their own ability, but I think it is easy to get consumed by other people's your perception of other people's perception. Does that make sense?

Right? And I think the way that social media is now is that we just scroll and we scroll and we scroll. And there is a real issue with looking at how everyone else lives their life and our perception, which isn't reality of how successful someone else has been or what they're doing. And I think that can be a really, really negative trait, and I think it's easy to get sucked into that.

And so I'm not saying I'm perfect in any way, shape or form, but I'm very, very conscious decision to set boundaries and to not let that affect me as much as it used to. And you spoke about having, like, a couple of tough moments. Were they like professional moments with clients, perhaps in a few of the different roles that I, that I, that I was part of at the time, right? Okay?

And I mean, you are, you're very busy, you're in lots of different roles and non exec positions, etc. So again, share only what you're comfortable with, but you had situations where maybe being a people pleaser has affected you, and you've had to sort of stand up and disconnect from if they like you or not, because that's not going to serve well for either party. Yeah, so maybe slightly controversial. So I've definitely been appointed for the wrong reasons to some of the situations or some of the organisations I've been appointed to.

And I don't say that lightly, I obviously have a lot of NDAs in play. So I'm going to be very cautious in terms of what I say, but I put a massive expectation against myself, and also I was appointed for the wrong reasons. So, you know, I think the pressure that that kind of accumulated to get there to result in a situation where I actually stepped down from everything I did four years ago. So, you know, I think it was very much of, again, I'm not a massive fan of the word imposter syndrome, but I definitely had something if that was the case.

And I was thinking, Who the hell am I to do all of this? Who the hell am I to be able to, you know, to hold these positions and I let that get inside my head, and that's a really, really dangerous situation if you let those things get inside your head, and if you listen, and if you see all that scrolling that you do, if you let it get inside your head, it is only a downward spiral, or it certainly was for me. And so, you know, that was quite a journey to recovery for me in terms of getting back on my feet, and I made it.

That's where kind of boundaries come in. I was like, right? I know what I need, you know, I think for the first time in my life, certainly in the last two years, I know what I need to preserve my energy. I know what I need to stay focused.

I know what I need to kind of achieve, what I need to do. And you know, I do have lots of things on but I'm very cautious and very protective of my time. And you know, I spend time with people that I choose to spend time with them, sales leaders. I guarantee this, the forecast you're looking at isn't accurate.

Why? Because your reps have deals that become stuck in the pipeline, things like champion leaving not being taken to power. Competitor enters the deal at the last minute. They're ghosting.

You imagine if your reps had access on demand to support where they could get one to one deal coaching with one of our expert coaches. That's what we provide your reps. Can use it proactively. Perhaps they've got a meeting coming up and they want to ensure they're putting their best foot forward.

They can book time with a coach and prepare for that upcoming meeting. Or perhaps it's reactively. There's a snag, there's a last minute problem. They need help moving an opportunity forward.

They can book same day coaching with one of our expert sales coaches and get help deal coaching gives your reps every opportunity to secure the best outcome and keep your forecast as accurate as possible. So it's interesting. You hit up on imposter syndrome there, and I think we've spoken about two of the biggest killers in the sales profession is need for approval and imposter syndrome. And I think it's really important to say, as far as I'm aware, in terms of my experience and the time that I've spent in this industries, everyone has that, yeah, I agree to a different level in terms of need for approval.

There was a research done by objective Management Group. We actually used their evaluations at my sales coach, and the need for approval was the number one thing that separated elite sales people to low and average performers. Need for approval from whom the prospect okay, that need for I don't want to ask tough questions, I don't want to challenge, I don't want to push, I don't want to consult. I'm worried about upsetting them.

I'm worried about losing the sale when they haven't got anything to lose at this stage. It's interesting. But then there's that imposter syndrome, because all too often, sales people are selling to someone in a more senior position, in a role they've not done, perhaps in an industry they've never worked in. And you can have that imposter syndrome, you know?

And everyone suffers from that, but it's when you understand that that's what's happening, and you work on it, you can start to overcome it. It sounds like you've come out the other side. And I don't think you appreciate when you're in it, that you're in it. No, it's like the power of reflection, isn't it?

Is? You can say, God, you're absolutely, that was totally, and you can give it that label, but actually, when you're in it, you don't see it, and that's the danger. And it's, how about, how do we ensure that people don't get in that vicious cycle? Because I think when you get to the bottom, it's too late.

I mean, in some ways, I think you almost have to experience it to it's like, it's like a rite of passage, in some ways, but you don't know what you don't know. And until someone points it out to you, you can't start to work on it, and it sounds like you had your own journey. Who's helped you through imposter syndrome, through need for approval. See, I would agree and disagree with that.

So I think self awareness is one of the most important aspects of the only person in sales. So from a characteristics like EQ and sales, self awareness as part of EQ is like one of the most important aspects. So for me, that is, like, almost one of the top things that I recruit for is that level of self awareness. Because actually it's you.

You have to be able to spot it in yourself. So yes, other people can that can be there, and you can have coaches, mentors, and, you know, you can go to conferences, you can listen to this amazing podcast, obviously. But I do think that it's really important that you have a level of self awareness, to be able to understand actually when this is happening to you, and when you feel that now, when it becomes a physical sensation. So which I felt, where you can kind of feel that, almost like that stress, you know, we've been there where you know it's a genuinely physical reaction your body, when you you know whether that be fear or that be pressure.

Or whatever that is, it's not intuition. There's a difference between intuition and fear, right? And you can feel that physical you know. That is your body telling you you know, whereas, actually, if you you know, if you record yourself, or if you've got a mentor that can kind of coach you and listen back, you know, to certain conversations.

If you are self aware and if you're being objective, you can kind of say, well, actually, why am I speaking to that person, that stance or that style, or whatever it is, Am I speaking to them on a book I've just read vertical or horizontal relationships? And I think for me, it is how I got to that journey was, yeah, I mean, I had a pretty I was at the bottom of that cycle, you know, I was at the bottom of that kind of spiral. And so I think you're right. I don't think, I think I think it's very difficult to understand it, unless you've been through it, unless you're in it.

And I was at the bottom of it, and I was like, right, I have to do something about this, because this is consuming me, and this isn't, this is not making me good at my job. This is not making me, you know, good at anything, to be honest with you. So what did you do? Then you said I had to do something about it.

What did you do? So, well, this was, I suppose, this was with, combined with lots of other things at this at the time, right? So I just literally had a bit of a long, hard look at my life. Honestly, I had some therapy, and I just realised that actually, the types of things that I was doing that was leading to me feel, for me to feel totally like an imposter, and just, you know, at least it's some pretty negative feelings, I think, yeah, I got a coach, I got, like, a mentor, I got some therapy and and I quit the thing that was making me feel pretty sure.

So I think what you shared there is exactly what people need to hear like you've identified a weakness. It's impacting your career, the thing that pays your mortgage funds your lifestyle is impacting that, and you've gone and done something about it proactively, and you didn't wait until it was too late. I mean, I was on the verge. Don't be wrong.

So I, you know, I think, I think with anything when it whether it be imposter syndrome or whatever it is, you know, we live in such a fast paced world, don't we? Is, you know, I journal, I run, you know, I, I'm pretty good at kind of, I guess, sleep, I, you know, all the things that we think are going to help us. And I was pretty good at doing all of that. I got to the point where I was doing all of that, and nothing was making a difference.

I was not okay. I was just not okay. You know, I think it's your ability to think you've got to get yourself out of this, and I think only you were responsible for doing that. And so when I realised I was not okay, I went and did everything I could.

And, you know, it took a while. My business wasn't any great shape at the time because I'd probably stepped away from it a bit too much. We're responsible to turn ourselves around. And I think I definitely, yeah, I definitely did that.

I think that's the key. Like, no one's coming to save you. No, no. So who did you work with from a coach point of view, like, what?

What was the kind of brief that you gave that coach? So I've had lots of different coaches throughout my whole life and mentors. So we've got a non exec now in the business, and, you know, I've got some really sharp growth plans, so he's very much to support me for that. I've also got a culture coach at the moment who is like a leadership and a culture coach for me.

So I'm really trying to scale my business at the moment. And you know, you know, I haven't done it to this level before. So for me, it's about really understanding who I am, where my like, blind spots are just in 360 degree feedback that was fun. And you know, it's about kind of understanding what type of culture I want to create in the business.

So, you know, there is a different person for you on a coaching or on a mentoring, on an exec perspective, depend it on the different time in your life, right? Depend on the different phase that you're going through, dependent on your goals, dependent on your ambitions. So, you know, I think you have to, and sometimes you don't have to have someone formal. So, yeah, there's loads of other business owners that I like go for walks with, or sometimes wine with.

Do you know, I mean, you just chat and say how it is, and because it's not, it's not all rosy. It's really, really tough running a business. And actually, a lot of that, I would say, I don't know, quote, don't quote me on this, but I reckon, like 75% of that is here. And if you don't get that sorted, it's a really dark place to be, and I think that's one of the key things that I've done over and I'm getting better, I'm not perfect at is you've got to be able to be vulnerable, you've got to be able to be honest, you've got to be able to not let the noise bother you.

You've got to be able to surround yourself with good people and have frank conversations, and you've got to have boundaries, and they're the things that have kind of, you know, I've worked on a lot over the years. It sounds like what you've done really well is surround yourself with people that have almost been on the journey that you want to go on, had the success that you want to have, and people that you can just be open and honest with and have the conversation. Because without that, you're just left to your own devices.

After more than a decade in banking and entrepreneurs forum. You obviously mentioned them. That's how that job would have come about. Then you sat up and took the leap to set up just Williams in 2015 How long did you have the idea before actually going, I'm doing it.

Oh, you like this, right? So I said when I was 15, I'm going to be a CEO by the time I'm 30, right? I had no. Idea what that was going to be in.

But I think, you know, I was surrounded by parents that ran their own business, and I did one of my modules for my math, for my MBA, was nature, nurture, entrepreneurism, which I think is quite interesting anyway, but yeah, I'd said, basically, when I'm 15, right, by the time I'm 30, I'm going to be Chief Exec. So I had no idea for what, or like, what I mean I was, I only had two staff, but, you know, technically, kind of got it. So when I left the bank, I did an MBA and specialised in sales psychology.

Worked for the entrepreneurs forum for two years. Realised during my time there, through a lot of the data that they collected for people that run their own businesses, there were two issues that just came up time and time again for and this was based on businesses that were growing and, you know, yeah, the based on success metrics, in essence. And the two aspects were access to finance, so always cash related. And finally, returning sales people.

And they were the two things that I think it was like, fight, no, it wasn't. It must have been about seven or eight quarters just came up time and time again. And I was like, there's an issue here. And I was very aware that, you know, even though I never had an actual sales role, as in, in the job title, I was literally doing that day in, day out in Bangkok, right?

And, you know, I started talking to family and talking to other people, and was aware that I it just has such a negative association compared to our European American counterparts, you know, the the association with sales is just not a good one. And I was like, there has to be a different way of doing it, you know. And speaking to a lot of the owners of the businesses, they were hiring sales people. They were, you can guess, this lasting less than two years, not working out, wasting a lot of money, and they were just going through this cycle time and time again, and kind of going, Well, nothing's changing.

And I was like, well, it has to be a different way. So that's really when I, you know, I did my, did my MBA at the same time. So did and specialise in, as I say, sales psychology. And looked at and looked at options, and then, yeah, set up, set up the business and doing sales consultancy, which obviously has kind of expanded and grown since then.

And you've obviously got two parents that have got their own businesses. Well, they wanted one sets retired, the other one's not now, but, yeah, but when you're doing that, how much did you speak to them about this? Did they encourage you? They try and put you off.

Do they give you any words of advice? I think they were like, go for it. But, you know, I was earning great money working in the banking industry. It was very ethical.

I can assure you, I was earning great money in the banking industry. And when I worked a lot, I did what I've always been an absolute kind of I've always had a very strong work ethic, probably, you know, from my parents. But yeah, I think they were like, you know, just give it a go. Give it a go.

I do know what it's awful. I don't remember what they said. I remember asking somebody in the first six months if it got easy, and they were like, No, you just get better. I was like, Yeah, I keep telling myself, and look that newer every day.

I'm like, come on, you've got this. So 10 years later, you've built a BEC Corp, you've trained 1000s created recognisable brands, certainly here in the Northeast. You know, when I've told people, come on the podcast, they know exactly who you are and what's going on. If you were to start again today, what's the one thing you would do differently to accelerate your journey?

Oh, do you know? I know the answer to this straight away. I would hire quicker and more and more senior, and I would outsource more. I think there's a real issue when you set up a business, regardless of what you're in, what what sector or industry, and you think, you think you should know all the answers, so you don't ask the questions, because you feel like, well, I've set up my own business.

I should know this. And you know, you I didn't take as many risks as I should have done in terms of hiring senior people. So I would have hired quicker, and I would have outsourced more. So What stopped you from hindsight in the first place, was it cash cash flow?

Right? I was going to say, was it cash flow? Yeah, when you say high, saying what kind of level we talking about. So obviously there was just me when I set up, but I would have hired more senior sales and marketing professionals sooner.

Obviously, we're at a different stage now in the business, but I think when I first set up, I tried to do too much, and was it all your own money in the business? Okay? So that also adds a different dimension where you've really got to, yeah, I didn't get any investment. And, you know, we've pretty much, we've grown organically.

As I say, we're at a stage where we've got quite a lot of changes happening with the business. Happening with the business at the moment, so we're in a very different position to what we were then, understandably, 10 years on. Was that a conscious decision just to bootstrap it yourself, rather than get investment? Yeah, it was because I think, you know, it was the first business I had.

I wasn't 100% sure where it was going to go. And, yeah, I think it was probably a little bit of naivety as well, if I'm honest, right? Okay, so we're hire more senior, yeah, take some risks. Outsource quicker and outsource quicker.

What? What kind of things would you outsource quicker, like, perhaps, so I probably would have got, like a VA virtual assistant. I would have outsourced some of the finance stuff quicker, yeah, and. Thing that, you know, I think you try to wear so many hats, right?

You know, I was used to wearing very well, and I'd done, you have to hit the ground running. I had a mortgage, and I had a lodger for just over a year, which was just, I've got some horrendous stories from that. I'll tell you over over a pint. But I took a lodging because, you know, I earned no money, you know.

And I had we in, you know, I barely paid myself for the first year and a half. So, you know, it's kind of that you just do what you can to make it work. We didn't have any, you know, we didn't even have necessarily monthly reoccurring revenue. Now, then, as I say, our model is very, very different, but we grew, I think, in the first three years, we grew up to 17 staff, which was crackers, and then the wheels came off, and then, yeah, it was, it was a bit tough.

And now we're kind of back where we are now, well, and make a success that you have done 10 years later as part of that journey you you talk about, I mean, going to 17 people in three years, it feels like you've learned some lessons there, because I say the wheels come off, tell us what you're comfortable with, but when you say the wheels come off, what do you mean? So we grew very, very quickly. So when I said I didn't outsource quickly off, do you know? I mean, it was like that was in the first year.

So we grew remarkably quickly. We were kind of, we won loads of awards, we won loads of new clients, and honestly, we didn't have the infrastructure to cope with it. Obviously, I didn't know that at the time. You know, we were just growing at such a rate.

I appreciate it's relative. But, you know, we were growing at such a rate that I was very quickly, kind of, you know, lots of people start a business because they like what they do. Leading a business is very different to starting something when it's just you and you do, you know. So I'm quite honest and open about it, and saying I was probably a little bit out of my debt and I didn't have the people around me to that I do now to support that growth.

And also, you know, our clients terms were short, we were probably were naive. So, you know, we were on six. I mean, it's, I'm laughing at myself now, going, you fool. You know, it's quite obvious, isn't it, in hindsight, right?

So you'll love this, and I can't believe we did this, but how I used to be crap at sales. I have admitted this. So we ourselves some of our because we worked across multiple industries. So some of them had, like, you know, nine month pipelines.

Like, 12 months pipelines, our contract terms were six months. Like, course, it wasn't going to work. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, we weren't evidence in that ROI within the first six months, because, actually we but we developed a really strong pipeline that was clearly going to drop us, you know, further further down the field.

So, you know, it caused us a, you know, some issues in terms of retention rate with staff and with clients. And, yeah, we kind of went, this is this is not sustainable. And it wasn't, I think there's an important segue here into just Williams. So it was a sales and marketing consultancy where people would outsource.

Ironically, the thing that you're saying you would have done yourself quicker is to outsource, and that's what your business was. Yeah, we're always good at telling other people, it's just doing ourselves, right, exactly, but yeah, so that challenge, therefore outsourcing sales to you. You're building pipeline for them in a six month agreement, but their sales cycles Jessica Williams: up to 12 months. Yes, what could possibly go wrong?

Mark Ackers: It's easy to sit here with 2020, I know, right, and look Unknown: back. I mean, it's pretty obvious when you say it out loud anyway, but, yeah, but, but I think Mark Ackers: part of it as well, though, like you say, if you're not able to hire senior people, and you're hiring people where everyone looks up to you, that is difficult. And you are going to drop balls, and sometimes you drop the wrong ones. But I think that's something I've always sort of said to myself, is you're going to drop balls, make sure you drop the right ones, Unknown: and it's hard.

I mean, I wish we could all do that. How do you manage that? Mark Ackers: Oh, didn't say do it well. So you say the wheels come off after three Unknown: years?

Yeah, probably three four, yeah, talk to us, being Mark Ackers: the owner of the business, being the person that buck stops with. Like, tell us about that. Like, what? How did you cope with that?

I think it kind of, do you know what it was probably, I'm saying three four years. It was probably about, well, no, wasn't it kind of coincided, actually, it was five years, sorry, because it coincided with the the pandemic. Don't you think? Like, like, like, does anyone else, I think that's like a time warp, like, it feels like it happened like 25 years ago, but yeah, it coincided with that, actually.

And, you know, I think ultimately it the book stops with you, you know, and this is probably one of in regards to our earlier conversation, is where you kind of have to put those boundaries up and you kind of have to say, right? Okay, so I'm gonna have to make some really tough calls here, and everyone's gonna like me and everyone's gonna like the outcomes, but ultimately, my job as the owner and leader of the business is to do the right thing for the business. Now, as a BEC core, our job is to use our business for a force for good.

So we believe in stakeholder equity in essence. So it's quite different just to a limited company, which is limited, you know, if you, if you're limited by guarantee, obviously it's shareholder equity, not stakeholder equity. So I am governed legally. Our articles of association are different.

So I'm governed by a different kind of creed. So for me, it is about our stakeholders, every single one of them. So you know, you have to make some tough. Calls, you have to change your model, and you have to keep going, and you have to have some amazing people around you to be able to help you do that.

And you have to be really frank and really honest with yourself and say, right, okay, why did this go wrong? And these are not questions that you answer in 24 hours or even two or three months. But, you know, I think maybe my banking background and being relatively, you know, I'm not risk averse, but I'm certainly risk conscious. Is that, you know, I've always made sure that we are well protected as an organisation and well financed, and I don't take unnecessary risks.

Talk to me about tough calls, tough days, what? What was the absolute bottom moment for you, and the toughest moment in that period? I think I had a week where, like, five people handed the notice in. That was a bit soul destroying, you know.

And we're at the point where, as I say, we didn't, we didn't, you know, we've never made anyone redundant, but we, I think the writing was on the wall. And that was really, that was hard, because it's, it kind of still feels personal rejection, you know. And actually, in sales or leading a business, Rejection hurts, it does. And I think that's another issue from a sales perspective, isn't it, which kind of goes to LinkedIn with the other things that we've talked about is that, you know, you can't make rejection personal, but sales rejection and leadership rejection are different.

I know that, but you know, ultimately, even a few weeks later, I was like, my god, they saved me from having to make them redundant. But at the time, it was like, What do you mean? You're leaving? You're kind of having that, like, ridiculous conversation you had where, you know, actually it's a BEC, it's like a benefit that they're leaving to the business.

But actually, if it still feels really personal, you know. And you know, during covid, obviously we were, we were doing sales and marketing for clients. Some of them wanted to put us on hold, you know? I mean, I remember single handedly moving our office into, like, a tiny, little office myself one Saturday, you know, what?

On Sunday, you know. And like, shifting all the desks and, like, you know, it was that's quite soul destroying. Well, you know, you're paying rent for something for like, a year, and no one's allowed in the office, or whatever. And then, you know, so lots of situations, you know, like that.

I do think people, regardless of what industry you're in, people is always one of the hardest things of running any business, regardless of sector or anything it's it's people that's the hardest aspect. Do you ever come close to just giving up during that period? Do you know what? I literally had a talk with somebody today about that bizarre Lake because I think it's some people call it motivation, some people call it focus.

Some people call it Mojo, whatever. But I think, yeah, it's hard, right? You know, from a cash flow perspective, from a from a from a mental like awareness perspective, from a just trying to keep your head above water perspective, like, you know, the thing is, is about and actually this is the same in sales and leading a business is you have to perform every single day. Yeah, you have to choose to turn up.

You have to choose to bring that energy. You have to bloody well choose that you're going to have a good day. Because if you don't, you let it rule you. And I'm not being cliche in terms of saying that.

So that's very much similar in sales as it is in leading a business, because I have to choose every day to come in and be positive and positively influence my team. That's a choice. When I think you start to waver a little bit and you know that, you know it's not that you let your emotions affect other people around you, but I think when you kind of just think, I've just got nothing left, then, yeah, I think you have to question that. But that's ability to manage your right energy levels and know yourself and have that self awareness to know that.

Yeah, I've had some really, really, kind of tough times, and I've had some really, really, but I don't know a business owner that hasn't It's your ability to pick yourself back up. It's grit. It's absolutely if you know what you're trying to achieve, right? It's and that's why I'm like, I believe in purpose led businesses, is that I'm very, very clear about what I'm trying to achieve.

So that doesn't make it easy. That doesn't make it, you know, like, I'm making it sound easy. It's not, you know, the punch bug in my gym. It's like, great fun on some days.

Do you know what I mean? Like, bottle of red wine. Love it. I'm not saying any this is right?

I'm just saying we all have our different coping mechanisms, and I think the more that you know your own you can you can be more consistent in from sales perspective or from a leadership perspective, in terms of and it is about surrounding yourself with good people. So important, when you say, surround yourselves by good people, people could interpret that differently. What do you mean by that? I think it's having a mixture of people that you can talk to openly.

So whether it be coaches, mentors, whatever that looks like, I think it's having a good mixture of friends, family around you, but I think it's having a really good team that will support you in that well, that will challenge you, but are there to positively influence and bring the same level of energy? And I think that's really, really important, that the that you've got that purpose centred leadership, which allows you to focus on on the same goal in a business, and that you are kind of dedicated in terms of achieving that.

What I'm definitely picking up, Jessica is just how you have got yourself to a place where you will just surround yourself with the right people, but you'll open up, you'll communicate, you'll share what, what's working, what's not working. Turn to people for advice. Unfortunately, so many people don't do that. They sort of live in their own mind, and they don't open up and they don't share.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like you've beaten me to my own questions. To you, people want to hear your answer to that. So my take on it is, I think we are fear, we fear perception, we fear failure.

And I think people, yeah, I think people, some people actually don't want to help themselves. What do you mean by that? So, you know, I think some people in, as I appreciate, this is slightly controversial, but I don't think everybody chooses to help themselves. I don't think everybody wants to actually get out of the situation that they're in with that mindset, because it's protective, and because actually that means they'll have to deal with their emotions, perhaps slightly controversial.

I don't know, like I what I do know is people show, I suppose I didn't know where you were going with that, if you were thinking that people must enjoy potentially that I think most people do what you know, absolutely want to, you know, be the best version of themselves, or whatever terminology you want to use. But, you know, I think it is. You know, self reflection is really, really important. You know, I'm a massive I ref, you know, I reflect on everything.

I journal loads I always have done. I have a coach that kind of holds a mirror up for me. I have some really honest friends. I have, you know, people in business that surround that I surround myself with.

And I, you know, I don't let myself get away with stuff. I hold myself accountable. And I, you know, I'm a massive fan of journaling, as I say, in terms of the business and also personally, because it helps you keep so accountable. And I think if you don't have that level of self awareness, it's the one thing that I'd say, you know, if there's another book that you read, I read, I read loads and loads and loads, but I have a real desire for constant improvement of myself and listen to books, read books.

That's one of the reasons I'm doing the doctorate. But I read loads of books on emotional intelligence, and it really changed my perception and also the I think we have a responsibility when we work in a team environment, is that how we impact other people? And I don't think it's fair that sometimes the way that we impact other people, and I think if you're not aware of the impact that you're having on those people, which is a negative one, then you know what makes me quite uncomfortable.

So, you know, I think you you have to be I think one of the key, another key attribute for sales people is you have to be inquisitive, right? You have to be curious. That's about yourself as well. If you think that you're the finished article, then no one can help you, but you shouldn't you the minute you stop learning, you start dying genuinely, because you have to be that.

As I said, I know it's really cliche, but you have to be the best version of yourself. And you can't do that unless you're really self reflective, and you look at yourself and go, Okay, how can I get better? How can I get to what I'm trying to achieve? How can I help my team get to where they need to get to?

How can I, you know, set, you know, achieve the goals that I want. But you have to start with self reflection. You've signed your team up to another E Learning course. You've hired a trainer to come in and run a workshop.

But guess what? Six months later, pipeline and performance is still lumpy. My sales coach turns learning into doing. We evaluate everyone on your team, we identify with real data the critical gaps that are holding them back, and then we remedy it.

We match each person to their dream coach and provide consistent one to one coaching to help them fulfil their potential and hit the number less one size fits all, training, more personalised support, which results in the growth of your team. That's predictable sales execution. That's my sales coach really hitting like the key themes that make elite sales people across this podcast, and I'll try and get them all. But we spoke about need for approval.

We spoke about ability to handle rejection. We've spoke about trust. You've just talked about their accountability. Spoke about being inquisitive.

You spoke about emotional intelligence. Like these are all key attributes that you see in elite sales people and leaders really, very hard to interview for, though, a lot of those things, aren't they? And I'm guessing you've had this in the past, where you've hired what you believe to be good people, and then you've realised they haven't got those traits. How quickly do you remove them?

Oh, God. I mean, what's that old adage that you hire high, slowly, and you fire quick? Something like this. Obviously, that's not the phrase is this, it's something like that, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, definitely it's. They are really difficult traits to hire for. You know, we do various different type of psychometric testing. I get my culture coach or my non executive on some of the final interviews.

And actually, what we've done, we've, we've hired quite a few people recently, is we get where, for example, a sales manager, or hire a sales manager with, with, with, kind of a more senior member of staff or a business admin have interviewed that so they've, they've, they've kind of aligned the role and helped interview. If I knew the answer that question, I would never. Ever have any staffing issues, and we would be growing to the nth degree. I think it's a really tough one.

I think you've just got to, you know, you if they're not right, you've got to get them out quickly, unless you see potential. And so I will say that unless, unless you see, because there's a difference between cart and won't. So for me, it's very much around their if they want to get better, I'll absolutely support them get better. If they're a dickhead, you get them out straight away.

I had a bit of an HR issue because I put on my wall at dickhead free zone, who's head of HR for your business? You'd be right then. Jessica Williams: That was a while ago now, but yeah, so Mark Ackers: you mentioned, I don't know, maybe a half hour ago, about doing a 360 feedback assessment. And you spoke there about your goals and where you're trying to get to.

You spoke about, I really love the phrase, if you're not learning your dying. Bit dramatic, but hey, but I really like so my question to you is, and you probably work this out there, what are you trying to work on? Where's your big flaws today? What was on surface from that feedback, and what are you doing to improve on that?

So I'm really, we're in a real growth phase in the business at the moment, and sometimes, I mean, it's about a year, over a year now, since I've done kind of client facing work. So, you know, it took me quite a long time to step away from that, to kind of lose, lose control, and I don't know everything that's going on, and I think I'm still learning on how to deal with that. You know, that's quite just to let my kind of team, and as my marketing manager, keeps telling me, it's not all about me.

So, you know, we've got a real ambition, obviously, that the business is it's difficult scaling a service based business based on one person, which is what I've done. So the business has to be more than just me. From for multiple from multiple perspective, you know, perspectives, it has to be more than just me. So, you know, for me, it is about learning how to step away, learning how to let my team take over.

I'm learning, I'm learning a little bit about that. I'm not saying I'm a control freak. Come tonight to know what's going on. And, you know, it's kind of like I've got a bit of FOMO, really, as to what's as to what's going on.

So I'm learning that that's quite a big thing. And, you know, I'm learning that decisions are being made in my business without me now, not saying I like it. That's happening, and that's the right thing to do. You know, it's kind of my baby, my baby's growing up, and it's like, you're proud of it, but at the same time you're like, What do you mean?

You don't need me. Of course, you need me. So, you know, I'm learning that at the moment to kind of like, step away, to BEC off. And, you know, it's, that's, and that's quite interesting.

And, you know, also trying to manage a scale of business from a cash flow perspective, from a, you know, from lots of different angles. I've never, I've never, I've never looked at that before. And we're making some big changes. We merged the two businesses together a few months ago.

So again, these are all new situations. We have never merged two businesses together. We're in the process of launching an employee management ownership scheme. I've never done that before, so we're doing that.

You know, we've got kind of quite a lot of big things that we're looking at where, you know, we we may be or may not be looking for finance. We may or may not be looking for acquisitions. So there's quite a lot that may or may not be happening and and I start my doctorate in three weeks. So, you know, it's like, kind of Yeah, let's do this.

So I've got quite a lot to learn, right? I mean, it sounds like it. I mean, using your analogy like the business being your baby, yeah? Until you get that, and at some Jessica Williams: point it's really pretty.

By the way, don't call it ugly. Mark Ackers: You can get ugly babies, though. We should definitely cut that out. Some will come from in the comments, the way they've got on me this morning.

They probably will put it in the trailer, sticking that analogy, business being your baby, and decisions happening without you, and you have to step away. I always sort of liken that to when you teach a child to ride a bike, you have to accept they're going to fall off. I remember saying that to my boy, yeah, interesting. Called William, yeah.

And I said to him, you know, before I let him go, I was like, right? You just to, you know, you are going to hurt yourself. You are going to fall off and you're gonna and we started on the grass, then we went to the concrete, because that is a lot harder on the grass, and just knowing when you let them go, because I couldn't keep up with him, he's gonna fall off. But it's difficult, isn't it?

Like when it's your business? One of the key things I'm picking up, Jessica is the importance your mindset plays. You're very self aware. You're obviously always trying to improve and your mindset.

I mean, you've run 13 marathons, including some international ones, but ultra marathons as well. What is an ultra marathon? Specifically, Insanity, technically, technically, it is anything above a marathon, but if you're kind of a serious runner, it kind of has to be over 30 miles. I've only done two ultras.

Oh, just, just, just the two. Oh, we won't talk about that. Then. I mean, you've got to have an incredible mindset to run ultra marathons and marathons.

And yeah, you've run 13, just jumping slightly out. But what's the best International Marathon you've run? So I've done five internationals. So actually, kind of pretty much decided 30.

In three years as well, which kind of makes it even more, a little bit more insane. I didn't always say I was totally balanced with my decisions, but I think again, one of the things that I had a thing to prove myself, which I've definitely done now. My last one was Vancouver in May 2025, and that was pretty special. That was pretty amazing.

I loved Lisbon. It was so hot. But Lisbon, Lisbon and Vancouver. I think of my favourite internationals in the UK, I would say, oh my god, I hated Kilda.

I can't even tell you how much I hated that run. I just hate Kilda. Never, honestly, I've never been so miserable in my whole life. Anyway, sorry, don't ever do Kilda marathon.

Yorkshire marathon, where I got a PB was probably my favourite, very good. And you really, you compare running to, like running a business. Tell me more. Tell me more about that.

I'm a I'm generally a massive advocate for fitness and mental agility. I think they for me, you know, finding that balance between, you know, I've always been quite into my fitness, and it gives me a focus, it gives me a clarity. It gives me headspace. It gives me dedication to whatever I'm trying to achieve.

And because I'm quite goal driven, I've normally kind of aligned. So, you know, I did Mont Blanc was probably one of my biggest achievements during that three year period as well. And it was, you know, aligned to kind of a marathon. You set yourself a goal, and you have to, you know, you don't just, like, you don't just grow a business.

It happens you have to align it to a goal. You don't just achieve a sales target, because it happens you have to align it to a goal. And a marathon is very similar, that you don't just turn up on a race day having not, you know, having not prepared. It's about a multi factor of things in terms of, actually, the consistency.

Consistency is everything right in life, in whatever role you're in. For me, especially in sales, consistency is really, really important. It's about doing your preparation. Really, really important.

It's about making sure that you are in the best space that you can be, you know. And a marathon is a lot about, you know, you're this, this bit, you know, you are far more capable physically than you think you are. I'll take your word for it, in terms of, you talk about, like everything sort of coming together, etc, you've got the well, you created the SME conference. Tell us what that is and who should attend.

So this is the fourth year that we've been running this conference. For the last three years, it's been called sales, service and success. So it's literally just been aimed at the sales market. But since our rebrand to the SME agency, which is sales marketing events, we've rebranded our conference to the SME conference.

So it is on the 23rd of October. It is at when you're told you are one of our keynote speakers, and it is for anyone within the North East region or further afield who is looking to grow their business, who is looking to expand their sales team, their marketing team, or hire a senior sales and marketing professional, and is interested in learning from people that are all the things we've talked about that, say it is it, say it is it. Is that kind of lead by example. And so we've got some amazing speakers there, obviously yourself on the sales space, on the marketing space, people that are kind of experts in terms of the way that you speak, the way that you articulate.

We've got some, yeah, we've just got a really good culture guy there. So we've got some really interesting speakers. Well, I'm very much looking forward to it. And tickets available now.

They are, indeed. It's an incredible venue. Winyard Hall. I have spoken there once before.

Oh, all right, I was the best man there. So this would be a very different type of talk. I don't think, I hope it will be slightly, I think won't be as funny. Jessica, there's, there's, there's loads that I've just not got to cover with you.

I definitely would want to do a part two. If you had to pick one defining moment in your career that's really shaped the success of your business and where you are today. What would it be? I would say, having to shut my office down and all those redundant, all those not redundancy, sorry, having to shut the office down for covid.

And no, let me start again. I think having the failure that we did in year, kind of four or five really shaped me to to be the person that I am from the business side, I think climb Mont Blanc shaped me to be on a personal side, to be as resilient and determined as I am. So it's, it's really rising from adversity and and challenges, and it feels like you've managed to see what is, you know, unprecedented with the with the pandemic, and what would be unprecedented for me climbing Mont Blanc, but thanks.

I'll take your word for it, but being able to take from those lessons and build from on there has been instrumental for you. So I suppose the lesson and the takeaway for people is, when you are being challenged, it's an opportunity to grow. And what can you what can you what can you learn surrounding it with the right people? The key thing that I will say in regards to that is you don't always see that opportunity as it's happening, but it's your ability to reflect afterwards.

So, you know, none of us in that, in that really difficult, challenging time, can kind of go, oh yeah, this is great, but it's your ability to reflect and adapt afterwards. Amazing. Yeah, I'm going to round up or off. I'm going to round off with a new feature that I'd like to introduce.

I want you to ask a question for my next guest, and it can be any question you want. I don't know who your next guest is, though, nor do I Oh, wonderful. How have you aligned your personal values to your own professional growth? I love it.

Jessica, genuinely say I'm just scrolling here on my note. There's so much I've not got to ask you, but this has been an amazing episode. I love how open, honest you've been. I think people can take so much from what you've gone through, and there's just so many nuggets we've touched upon that I think it's gonna be a great episode for people to do.

Thank you for coming all the way to offices. Appreciate not too far for you, but it's great to have you here, and I look forward to getting that I can't work out if you like white wine, red wine or beer, because we spoke about all of them, but having a drink in the future, and I definitely would like to do the second episode in the future. Unknown: Count me in red wine. Thank you for having me.

You.