Why the Best Salespeople Struggle Most When They Become Managers | EP27 | John Mason

1 - > Mark Ackers: I see this trap all the time. First time managers 2 - > were previous top performers. They now don't know how to 3 - > manage top performers. They want more.

So businesses promote them 4 - > to the manager role that is a completely different role to the 5 - > one that they've been doing. So what they do is they lean on 6 - > well, do what I did, because that's what made me successful, 7 - > and that's their approach to management. 8 - > John Mason: I'd say those two things are definitely far apart. 9 - > Everything you think the job is, is that and more, 10 - > Mark Ackers: they still keep their quota, but now have more 11 - > responsibility.

It's 12 - > John Mason: spooky. It's scary. 13 - > Mark Ackers: Today's guest is someone who spent more than a 14 - > decade in sales and commercial leadership roles, progressing 15 - > from SDR through to leading business development teams. He 16 - > blends leadership, coaching, sales, psychology and real world 17 - > go to market experience.

John Mason, did you used to be crap 18 - > at sales? Yes. What part of your career flashed through your mind 19 - > John Mason: the start of every chapter of my career in sales, 20 - > we expect people to wear many hats, a team that cannot turn 21 - > six people that are responsible for inbound, outbound, SDR 22 - > functions, closing the business and upsell supporting they will 23 - > just fail at all six rather than be good at one. Internal 24 - > coaching is brilliant, but external coaching is the thing 25 - > that teams need when 26 - > Mark Ackers: you first become a manager.

What kind of training 27 - > and coaching did you get? The 28 - > John Mason: company did invest some time, effort and money into 29 - > leadership training, for those of us that were new managers, 30 - > and this is a point about the industry as a whole, in sales 31 - > training that, to me, felt like a HR tick in the box exercise. 32 - > It's just a case of being able to say we did some training, we 33 - > can just hire someone to come in for a half day or one day 34 - > workshop that's going to eradicate all of our problems.

35 - > Why do people still turn to that? We think it's a silver 36 - > bullet. This is the reason why my team is not successful. This 37 - > is going to solve all my problems.

Do you think HR people 38 - > should be arranging sales training sessions? I'd say 39 - > Mark Ackers: sales leaders, coaching. We all know how 40 - > important it is, but we also know finding the time to coach 41 - > as often as needed is a challenge. You often have random 42 - > pockets of time, and you feel like, how do I coach effectively 43 - > to the time that I have in my calendar?

We've created a guide 44 - > for you, whether you've got 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 45 minutes 45 - > or an hour in there. You go to the chapter that you need with 46 - > the time that you have, and it'll teach you how to coach 47 - > effectively. Link in the comments to download So John, 48 - > welcome to the show. Good to see you.

How you feeling good? 49 - > John Mason: Thanks, Mark, Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks. 50 - > Mark Ackers: And I can't help with notes immediately.

Your 51 - > background that looks like, I think, are they called Funko 52 - > Pops? 53 - > John Mason: They are indeed. 54 - > Mark Ackers: Is that the turtles behind you or not? It's 55 - > blurring.

I can't see what are they? 56 - > John Mason: Oh, no. It's Yoda at the top. So it's Yoda at the 57 - > top.

They're out of focus for the camera. So it's Yoda at the 58 - > top. There's some Marvel characters in the middle, and 59 - > some rather jazzy colours and hidden just here is one that my 60 - > team bought me, which says the king of SME sales says, when I 61 - > left my previous role, they got me my own custom phone call. 62 - > Mark Ackers: Wow, which 63 - > John Mason: is nicely a book crest there.

64 - > Mark Ackers: Yeah, very good. And I can see a little bit of a 65 - > Star Wars AT walker. I believe they're cool, but yeah, no 66 - > great. Great to have you on the show, John.

It's always 67 - > interesting to see people's backgrounds and what they share. 68 - > But no big welcome to the podcast. We always kick off with 69 - > a yes, no question. John Mason, did you used to be crap at 70 - > sales?

Yes. And when you heard me ask you that question, and 71 - > you answered yes, what part of your career flashed through your 72 - > mind? 73 - > John Mason: I'd say the start of every chapter of my career. So 74 - > whether it's my first role in sales as an SDR, my first 75 - > promotion, my first change of job, my first change of 76 - > vertical, my first time in management, I think every time 77 - > you start something new, that imposter syndrome creeps back 78 - > in, and you're like, I am crap at sales.

And 79 - > Mark Ackers: I suppose that's an interesting differentiation, 80 - > though there's the imposter syndrome, whereas that self 81 - > limiting belief and the reality. What do you think's going on 82 - > when you say that? Is it the imposter syndrome and it's like 83 - > your own self limiting belief? Or do you think there's a 84 - > reality to that as well.

85 - > John Mason: I think the reality is there for a lot shorter time 86 - > than the imposter syndrome makes you feel like it's there. So 87 - > there are going to be times in your career when you're gonna be 88 - > a look back and think there's one time I remember this 89 - > particular call, this particular demo, where I really messed up. 90 - > And they are the points in which you are crap at sales. But you 91 - > may have that longer lingering thought and feeling that you are 92 - > Mark Ackers: every sales person I speak to has got their own 93 - > story where something has gone horrendously wrong.

If I asked 94 - > you to think back to perhaps your worst moment, where you've 95 - > just made a mistake that now you can look back on and laugh, but 96 - > others could maybe learn from what is probably the biggest 97 - > Howler you've had in your career. Today, 98 - > John Mason: I recall in my previous role, when I was at 99 - > down at planner, sort of I was fairly fresh in the role, 100 - > probably my first three to six months on the phone, and there 101 - > was a big uptake in the number of inquiries we were dealing 102 - > with as a big sort of push.

And I was doing a lot of 103 - > demonstrations, a lot of conversations on an autopilot, 104 - > quite a. Lot, and I fell into this sort of bad rhythm of just 105 - > taking everyone through the same motions. And I remember being on 106 - > a demonstration with a client, trying to convince them to 107 - > upgrade to the latest thing. And at every turn I'd say this 108 - > wonderful new thing, that wonderful new thing, selling the 109 - > features, the thing we shouldn't be doing.

And they're just sort 110 - > of very uninterested, but they're still going to buy it. 111 - > And I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong. And it was that 112 - > I was selling the features, but I kind of got to the end of the 113 - > call with that particular client and said, I think I've just sat 114 - > here and talked at you for half an hour trying to sell you this 115 - > latest thing, when, in fact, you just want to continue and have 116 - > whatever we're offering.

And I on the phone sort of coined an 117 - > analogy or a story, that if you walk into a car dealership 118 - > because you just want the latest hatchback, you just buy the 119 - > hatchback, and then you upgrade to the next hatchback, and then 120 - > you upgrade to the next hatchback, because you're just a 121 - > creature of habit, and you don't really care what features there 122 - > are. I've just sat there and told this person all these 123 - > wonderful new things and latest car, and he's like, I just want 124 - > a car, mate, just give me that car.

Thank you. So that Howler. 125 - > I'd say it. Wouldn't say it haunts me, but I definitely look 126 - > back on it and think that was a point in which I realised you 127 - > can't just cookie cutter your demonstrations or conversations.

128 - > You need to adapt and listen to what the client wants. 129 - > Mark Ackers: And that's interesting. Like, I think a lot 130 - > of salespeople will know that feeling of I'm on a call with 131 - > someone, it's not gone well, and I just needed to end now and 132 - > forget about it and go on my next call. But what you've done 133 - > differently there is you've kind of called it out.

You've said, 134 - > Look, on reflection, it feels like I've just spoke to you for 135 - > half an hour. That wasn't the right thing to do. I can imagine 136 - > that disarms the prospect, because they're not expecting 137 - > you to say that. How.

How did they respond to your brutal 138 - > honesty there? I think 139 - > John Mason: they responded, Well, I think you're right, that 140 - > the fact I was able to think on the fly and turn it around and 141 - > have that self awareness probably comes from a time 142 - > previously in my career where I've made a similar mistake, but 143 - > wanted the ground to swallow me up and wanted to get off the 144 - > call as quickly as possible. So the fact that this happened 145 - > pretty much six years into my career, halfway, halfway into my 146 - > career, could work out how old I was then, meant I would have 147 - > learned a lesson previously and applied it then.

But yeah, 148 - > definitely has been times where I've come off a call as quickly 149 - > as possible, wanting the ground to swallow me up. I 150 - > Mark Ackers: think what's interesting there is you're 151 - > talking about something that's happened six years into your 152 - > career, and I know you'll take this the right way. Many people 153 - > on paper would read that story and think surely in the first 154 - > six years, you've learned that lesson. Not just a feature dump, 155 - > but I think one of the things that I see all the time is 156 - > people confuse years in role for growth and development, and it's 157 - > not the same thing.

So many sales people have the same year 158 - > over and over again, and they're not learning, they're not 159 - > developing, they're not moving on. And it feels like perhaps 160 - > you got to a point where you realised, okay, something needs 161 - > to change. I need to grow and develop. And maybe that was the 162 - > point where you realised that, is that, is that a fair 163 - > John Mason: statement?

I'd say it was a fair statement. It was 164 - > the third vertical, the third area that I was selling into. So 165 - > financial services was not something I'd done for six 166 - > years. I had some selling for six years, but for six years, 167 - > but financial services was new.

Some days I was doing three or 168 - > four, three or four days in a row. So the thing that I slipped 169 - > back into was that cookie cutter demonstration. Just go through 170 - > the motions, get it done. And that's when I lay, sort of fell 171 - > foul of going back to the default, which I had spent years 172 - > unlearning, and let's talk about that early period then, like the 173 - > years that you'd spent learning and trying to undo that.

How did 174 - > you actually end up in sales in the first place? I think I ended 175 - > up in sales, like everyone else ends up in sales. I fell into it 176 - > by accident. I woke up one day, decided I needed a nine till 177 - > five that paid me a salary I couldn't necessarily just keep 178 - > working zero hour contracts and the gig economy as such.

And 179 - > basically applied for the, you know, took the first role that 180 - > would accept me, which, yeah, back in 2012 was my local BT 181 - > business office, 182 - > Mark Ackers: and what was an early John like in a sales role, 183 - > John Mason: a deer in headlights, Bambi on ice. I had 184 - > plenty of soft skills that I took into the role where I had 185 - > worked in bars and done cross sell, up sell. I had done some 186 - > door knocking. I had done some telephone sales, appointment 187 - > setting for like, you know, Windows and things like that in 188 - > my teens and early 20s.

But this was B to B sales, selling 189 - > telecoms. It was like a step up, and there was a steep learning 190 - > curve. So, yeah, deer in headlights or Bambi on ice is 191 - > definitely a good way of describing how I would have been 192 - > in those first 369, months, 193 - > Mark Ackers: and in that time, who helped you? That's 194 - > John Mason: a really good question.

I was quite lucky. So 195 - > BT is a large organisation, but the local office is franchised, 196 - > and so it's small. At the time, we probably had 30 or 40 staff. 197 - > I know the Southwest office now has probably tripled in size 198 - > since I left in 2014 you learn off your peers.

So it's who's 199 - > already there, setting the appointments that are doing 200 - > well, sort of copy. Sort of copy them. But I did have a really 201 - > good team leader, manager that was fantastic at protecting his 202 - > team. You know, if there was some negativity coming down from 203 - > the top table, you know, make more calls, but more 204 - > appointments.

You know, why are you guys not hitting target? 205 - > He'd do very well at the. Absorbing that and then playing 206 - > it back to us in a constructive way for us to be able to achieve 207 - > those targets. So having a really good team leader allowed 208 - > me the space to grow in those two years.

I get the idea of 209 - > absorbing the pressure from above and relying that in a 210 - > message that is softer, more motivating than it is 211 - > criticising. I tell you that, what other traits did this team 212 - > leader have that perhaps has left an impression on you? They 213 - > were always fair. So there's a few, a few mouths to feed, 214 - > whether it was like, you know, in down leads and things like 215 - > that.

So there was always fair in making sure that everyone got 216 - > a fair shot. He didn't share show favouritism, and I probably 217 - > couldn't quantify what it is that he did, but I can quantify 218 - > what feeling I had when I was at work. And it's a case of, I was 219 - > ready to go back for him. I was ready to go to war.

If he said, 220 - > We need to book two more appointments today, I was ready 221 - > to go. So the things that he would have done that would have 222 - > instilled that in me. And so obviously, you know, this is 223 - > going back 12 years, so I can't necessarily think of what they 224 - > were, but I do vividly remember that feeling of way too bad for 225 - > him already to go to war. And I think that's important.

If, if 226 - > your leader can make you feel like that, then that's a really 227 - > important thing. What 228 - > Mark Ackers: was this leader's name? 229 - > John Mason: It was Matt charleck. So, yeah, he was at 230 - > BEC for quite a long time.

I think he's now at OT or Virgin. 231 - > I know those merged. So he's doing something over on that 232 - > side of the the telecoms fence, just so to speak. 233 - > Mark Ackers: And let's say I said to you, oh, I know Matt.

234 - > I'm going to give him a call if I was to call him up and say, 235 - > Tell me about John Mason in those early years. How do you 236 - > think he would describe you? 237 - > John Mason: I was inconsistent. You know, back then I was I'd 238 - > have good days of booking two or three appointments, and then go 239 - > two or three days without booking one.

I just couldn't 240 - > seem to find the strive that. I couldn't seem to find the thing 241 - > that made it click. I remember watching Wolf of Wall Street 242 - > thinking, This must be the secret sauce to how you'd be a 243 - > good appointment setter. So from a performance perspective, 244 - > that's what you definitely say.

But I'm I know that I shared it 245 - > showed a lot of of those skills. That says, If I teach this 246 - > person how to achieve those things, there are other things 247 - > that they can do naturally that will help them in their career 248 - > move forward. 249 - > Mark Ackers: And what do you think the difference was then, 250 - > on days where you might set two or three appointments, and then 251 - > days where you where you wouldn't was it a tactical 252 - > difference in those days or a mental difference in those two 253 - > days?

254 - > John Mason: Tactical? I think back then, it was just sheer 255 - > luck. This is 2012 2013 14, the days of just do 100 dials a day. 256 - > There's no full enrich LEM list.

There's no sequences. It is just 257 - > pick up. There's no parallel dialers or anything like that. 258 - > It's just pick up the phone manually, type in a number, and 259 - > do that 100 times in a day with as little research as possible.

260 - > I think that was a very shotgun scatter coach, scattergun 261 - > approach to appointment setting and to sales development roles. 262 - > And I think it was brilliant to have learned how not to do 263 - > things and to have that experience to cut my teeth, but 264 - > people coming into the industry now, they've got a lot more 265 - > support behind them to not get to that target by chance, but to 266 - > actually get there tactically, 267 - > Mark Ackers: I'm going to change that slightly, and I'm going to 268 - > do that in a way which I think is going to be a really good 269 - > conversation.

John, and this comes from a place of working 270 - > with and managing SDRs for a long time now, the tactical side 271 - > of things, I get it, if you do something different one day to 272 - > the other, that can impact results. I suppose what you were 273 - > talking about there, though, it wasn't different tactics. It was 274 - > pick up the phone. Have 100 dials a day.

I get you might say 275 - > and do things differently, but your point about in today's day 276 - > and age, there's like, full and rich cognism All these sort of 277 - > you know, we've never had more technology at our fingertips, 278 - > but that technology wasn't different for you day to day. So 279 - > I wonder, was it that you might just take your foot off the gas 280 - > a little bit because you've had two or three appointments a day 281 - > before, you don't feel like you need to achieve that the next 282 - > day, and perhaps you are just a little bit more relaxed.

You're 283 - > not desperately trying hard. Do you think, like, mentally? 284 - > Because I think tactically, when people looking to improve the 285 - > form to sales team, they focus on those tactics. But I feel 286 - > like most of it's actually the mental side of sounds like, 287 - > obviously you need to know how to do things.

You need to know 288 - > how to say, what to say, the cool structure, etc. But I think 289 - > your answer there would tell me it was more mental than 290 - > tactical, because you were doing the same thing each day. Talk to 291 - > me about that. 292 - > John Mason: Yeah, I think I probably didn't actually 293 - > describe it as well.

I didn't know what I was doing. So it was 294 - > sheer luck if I was booking appointments, because there was 295 - > not necessarily a huge amount of science behind it, other than 296 - > pick up the phone and make those dials. So now we would better 297 - > define an ICP. We would create sequences.

We would be more 298 - > targeted, methodical in our approach, so that we can take 299 - > what works and repeat that. I didn't necessarily know what was 300 - > working, so I didn't necessarily know how to repeat it, and I. 301 - > 100% agree with why you think the side of it would be mental, 302 - > and I've seen that as well in the near decade that I've worked 303 - > with, SDRs and AES, training, coaching, managing, working 304 - > alongside. But I do know, from a perspective, when I was working 305 - > at BT, you couldn't take your foot off the gas.

You weren't 306 - > allowed to, I definitely felt like there was a degree of 307 - > ruling by like an iron fist and fear. You know, there, there was 308 - > no coasting. You know, you did need to hit two appointments, 309 - > three appointments a day. And if you didn't, you know, you're in 310 - > for a bit of a rollicking.

So I think the mental side of it 311 - > would be around the that imposter syndrome creeping in. 312 - > You know, it's not going well. I'm at lunchtime, I haven't 313 - > booked an appointment, and then you start the self doubt, and 314 - > that will probably carry through into your course, so that 315 - > mentally, I think, would be where your subconscious is 316 - > probably actually affecting your dials in the afternoon, for 317 - > example. 318 - > Mark Ackers: So that's, yeah, that's interesting, because that 319 - > that to me, if you get to lunchtime and you've not had any 320 - > success, you start to count down the hours that you've got left, 321 - > and you start to become more attached to the phone calls 322 - > you're making and the outcome.

But again, you know, that's that 323 - > look. Could you argue that's tactical, maybe. But again, 324 - > that, to me, screams mindset and being able to rise above what 325 - > situation you find yourself in. I've enjoyed that part of the 326 - > conversation.

John, when I know BEC was was in conversation with 327 - > you about organising this this episode, you shared some really 328 - > interesting thoughts, and we agreed that we'd feature, sorry, 329 - > we agreed that we'd focus this episode on that first time 330 - > manager role that this is one of the biggest challenges that the 331 - > sales industry has, right? You get top performers, they want 332 - > more. So businesses promote them to the manager role, and that is 333 - > a completely different role to the one that they've been doing.

334 - > And there's so much we could talk about here, and this is 335 - > kind of what I want to get into, but I see this trap all the 336 - > time. First time managers were previous top performers. They 337 - > now don't know how to manage. So what they do is they lean on 338 - > well, do what I did, because that's what made me successful, 339 - > and that's their approach to management, and the company 340 - > doesn't support them in that transition from quota carrier to 341 - > manager, and actually, far too often, they still keep their 342 - > quota, but now have more responsibility, and they've got 343 - > to navigate so much, not not just learning how to interview, 344 - > recruit and onboard, how to have one to ones, how to use the tech 345 - > stack in a reporting sense, how to forecast, how to have 346 - > difficult conversations.

They've also got to go from being a 347 - > friend to being a boss, and it's a huge step up. And like, like 348 - > you said in your notes when we were swapping some emails, most 349 - > sales people don't become managers by accident. We all 350 - > accept that they do choose it because they feel like it's the 351 - > next step, more money, more status, career progression. And 352 - > companies say yes, because you're a top performer, we don't 353 - > want you to leave.

We'd rather promote you than bring in 354 - > someone external. It looks like we're a great employer. We are 355 - > developing people, but yeah, the issue that nobody talks about is 356 - > the reality of the job. Talk to me about your experience when 357 - > you first started thinking about leadership, what did you think 358 - > the job actually was going to be and what was the reality?

359 - > John Mason: Yeah, I'd say those two things are definitely far 360 - > apart. A lot of professionals not just sales, but sales very 361 - > much so your top ICS tend to become your your managers, 362 - > because of the status thing, everything you think the job is, 363 - > is that and more. And you probably hard. You probably hold 364 - > things that you think are important in the role, that 365 - > aren't you think they're more important than they actually 366 - > are.

Yeah, you touched on quite a few really good points there. 367 - > So you're going from you know, you're now managing your peers 368 - > and your friends. How do you do that? How do you still build 369 - > that relationship where they will, you know, go to bat for 370 - > you.

How do you make them better without trying to make them four 371 - > or five clones of yourself? What support do you get from the from 372 - > the business? I remember vividly when I took over my first 373 - > leadership role, it was a very much a firefighting moment. I 374 - > was trying to fix the things that hadn't been done because 375 - > there was, you know, no one at the helm for a small period of 376 - > time.

I was trying to fix the things that needed to be done on 377 - > the day to day basis as they were coming in. And, you know, I 378 - > was a few weeks or months away from planning for next year. So 379 - > I try to fix the future. I thought some of those things 380 - > were really important, and little did I know that many more 381 - > would come, you know around to need urgent attention, because 382 - > you step into leadership and you're managing your team, but 383 - > now you have this level of exposure to the rest of the 384 - > business.

So there are other people in the business that now 385 - > need things from you and need to do things that you weren't 386 - > necessarily expecting. So I remember when I was promoted to. 387 - > Become the team leader, the head of business development. We were 388 - > going through our ISO 27,001 certification.

So the head of it 389 - > adopts needed some things that had been sort of left in the 390 - > inbox tray. And I said, When do you need these? And he went two 391 - > weeks ago. So I've just been stepped into a role.

I've got 392 - > all these new things that I think are super important to 393 - > deal with, and I've just been given a deadline of something 394 - > that I didn't even know was on the radar. So it is a it's 395 - > spooky. It's scary. When 396 - > Mark Ackers: you first become a manager, what kind of training 397 - > and coaching did you get on how to be a great frontline manager?

398 - > John Mason: I had a really mixed bag in my previous employer done 399 - > that planner. When I was made head of I was really blessed 400 - > that the previous person who was my manager, allowed me exposure 401 - > to her job and to do things on her behalf, to kind of, I guess, 402 - > Tee me up ready to take over in the event that she was to leave. 403 - > I was then promoted, not because I was the best individual 404 - > contributor. I was, you know, jostling for first and second 405 - > continuously with another, but I was the one that could also lead 406 - > people, but I did carry an individual contributor target 407 - > and the team target and the responsibility of basically 408 - > heading up the department with the CRO and the planning and 409 - > everything else that comes between that the company did 410 - > invest some, some time, effort and money into leadership 411 - > training for those of us that were new managers, getting sort 412 - > of consultants to come in and do workshops and things like that, 413 - > to me, and this isn't a point specifically about my previous 414 - > employer.

This is a point about the industry as a whole, in 415 - > sales training that, to me, felt like a HR tick in the box 416 - > exercise, as opposed to a structured need for training 417 - > something you'd be awful too familiar with my sales coach. 418 - > Plenty of you know, people will come to you looking to training 419 - > for their sales team, and it's just for their tick box 420 - > exercise, rather than actually trying to develop that manager 421 - > to an end goal as part of their career, as part of their 422 - > development, etc.

It's just a case of being able to say we did 423 - > some training. And I think that may have been the case, and I 424 - > know that is the case for a lot of other businesses. 425 - > Mark Ackers: I think, sadly, the vast majority. Let's go back to 426 - > then, to that strategy of teeing you up.

I'm a big fan of that. I 427 - > remember when I was in SDR, I wanted to become an AE, and I 428 - > got some exposure in the sense of, I got to run some events 429 - > where I sold tickets. Then run events. I got to learn to speak 430 - > to people.

And as I say, I was selling those tickets to an 431 - > event in London, and that was my first taste. Then I got to if I 432 - > overachieved on my quota of booking meetings, I got to spend 433 - > a day a week trying to be an AE and take those first meetings, 434 - > and then as a, as a, an AE, I made it my, my purpose in every 435 - > one to my boss to say, can I take that off your plate? Can I 436 - > take that off your plate? And I used to get all the crap jobs 437 - > that they didn't want to do, but you do them well, and then you 438 - > get more responsible, and you get more exposure and and I 439 - > really believe in that strategy, not just promoting someone into 440 - > a new role.

And it's like day one, this is all you do. I think 441 - > you have to give that soft exposure and those those 442 - > opportunities which seem to work really well. That sounds like 443 - > that will happen to you as well, which is great when you say 444 - > about getting some tick box training and workshops? Yeah, I 445 - > sort of in the back of my head, just thought, Well, we both know 446 - > as as does anybody listen to his podcast?

Right? No, nobody 447 - > listens his podcast. Will be of the opinion, well, that sounds 448 - > great. Just do a workshop and training, because we're all 449 - > smarter than that.

We know better than that. But why? Do 450 - > you think that people still in 2026 believe that we can just 451 - > hire someone to come in for a half day or one day workshop, 452 - > and that's going to that's going to eradicate all of our 453 - > problems? Why do people still turn to that?

454 - > John Mason: I think it's the path of least resistance. I 455 - > think it's the easiest thing to do to satisfy an, you know, a 456 - > question with the answer that we've done training, but the 457 - > question doesn't probe deeper. So I think in companies in 458 - > general that make this mistake, and frequently make the mistake 459 - > and don't necessarily learn from it, I think they are the ones 460 - > that don't probe deeper at the SLT, C suite level, when asking 461 - > those questions, you know, why are we delivering training?

What 462 - > are we trying to do? What's the positive outcomes we're trying 463 - > to enact? Also goes to commission plans as well. You 464 - > know, we put this commission plan together, what behaviours 465 - > are we trying to get the sales reps to do?

I think if we don't 466 - > challenge the why, the what, the when, the where, the WHO, and we 467 - > just accept the first answer rather binary and linearly, we 468 - > will continue to make those same mistakes and sales, sales 469 - > professionals, AES, SDRs, leaders will continue to, I 470 - > guess, be held back by their inability to evolve and to take 471 - > that step forward. The 472 - > Mark Ackers: other thing that you said that just made. Maybe 473 - > wins was HR booked the training effectively.

Do you think HR 474 - > people as great as I'm sure they are at their jobs should be 475 - > arranging and booking sales training sessions? 476 - > John Mason: No, they are great at their job, and they're great 477 - > is people in human resources, just like I don't think finance 478 - > and operations should be anywhere near commission plans. 479 - > But in plenty of companies, that is the case. I think sales 480 - > leaders, you know, team leaders, head of business development, 481 - > sales director, CRO Chief Sales Officer, Chief Commercial 482 - > Officer, whatever they may be, they are the people that own 483 - > their domain.

And I think they are the ones that should be 484 - > involved in the training for their their teams and the 485 - > responsibility and power should divulge down from the CRO all 486 - > the way down to the team leader of an SDR, 487 - > Mark Ackers: you've signed your team up to another E Learning 488 - > course. You've hired a trainer to come in and run a workshop. 489 - > But guess what? Six months later, pipeline and performance 490 - > is still lumpy.

My sales coach turns learning into doing. We 491 - > evaluate everyone on your team, we identify with real data the 492 - > critical gaps that are holding them back, and then we remedy 493 - > it. We match each person to their dream coach and provide 494 - > consistent one to one coaching to help them fulfil their 495 - > potential and hit the number less one size fits all, 496 - > training, more personalised support, which results in the 497 - > growth of your team. That's predictable sales execution.

498 - > That's my sales coach. I think that's one of the big shifts 499 - > that I've seen in the last sort of 20 years. Though, I think if 500 - > I go back to the first 10 years of my career, lots of companies, 501 - > particularly like the FTSE 100 you can, you can see who the 502 - > CEOs are. It was a lot of sales people with sales backgrounds.

503 - > And then the 10 years that followed, it seemed to change, 504 - > to be more CFOs and financial people. And I think you do just 505 - > run the company completely differently and have a different 506 - > outset to it. Let's, let's put something out there for anyone 507 - > that's listening to this podcast that thinks the next role for 508 - > them is to be a sales manager. They perhaps feel like that's in 509 - > their grasp.

First of all, what do you think they believe the 510 - > job to be? So just imagine being that IE, I've got a sales 511 - > manager role in my grass. What do you think they believe that 512 - > role to be like on a day to day basis? 513 - > John Mason: Oh, gosh, it could be so many things.

Some people 514 - > probably just think it's a title and some power, and they are 515 - > people that shouldn't be promoted to that position. 516 - > Others may just think that they're now responsible for a 517 - > bigger target, because they're looking after 345, AES, 518 - > hopefully plenty of them realise it's now my responsibility to 519 - > make these people better at their job so that they can 520 - > progress in their careers. And I am commercially incentivized. 521 - > The better they do, the better I earn.

The latter one's one, I 522 - > hope is the one, but it's probably the middle 523 - > Mark Ackers: one. 524 - > And let's talk about the realities. Let's imagine again, 525 - > you're gonna create the perfect advert that is a true 526 - > representative of what it's like to be a sales leader. What do 527 - > you think those people that have that job in their grasp need to 528 - > know about the reality of the role?

529 - > John Mason: Yeah. So what is the true purpose of a sales leader? 530 - > You go from being all about yourself to being about others. 531 - > I guess anyone watching this podcast that has children, when 532 - > you're single, you don't have children, you're responsible for 533 - > yourself.

When you have children, you're now responsible 534 - > for other human beings, and you then put them first over 535 - > yourself. I think sales leadership is very similar. I 536 - > think you need to realise that it's no longer about you, it's 537 - > about the collective team and those individuals. So anyone 538 - > looking to go into leadership needs to very quickly be able to 539 - > shift from that mindset about being me and it's it's then 540 - > about them.

I think 541 - > Mark Ackers: that's a really good analogy, and as a father of 542 - > two and a sales leader, that probably explains why I'm 543 - > exhausted all the time you talk about being responsible for 544 - > making the team better, let's have a really open conversation, 545 - > because I think this is one of the things that sales leaders 546 - > need to accept when you think of all the things a salesperson 547 - > needs to be good at in 2026 and by the way, that list has 548 - > changed dramatically in the last two years.

Is it actually fair 549 - > to think that a sales manager has all the domain expertise and 550 - > knowledge to make their team strong across all areas and 551 - > disciplines? 552 - > John Mason: I will say yes in theory, but no in practice. One 553 - > of the things I think we struggle with in sales as well 554 - > is we expect people to wear many hats, so in lots of companies, 555 - > even ones that have grown, you know, your A's may be doing 556 - > outbound, they may need to have SDR skills.

They may be doing 557 - > upsell as well, so they need CSM skills. So to expect, without. 558 - > Are like specifically defining, you know, the manager and their 559 - > role. I think they can fall foul of that target of making them 560 - > better in an organisation or structure where it's a case of 561 - > you are in charge of the outbound team make them better.

562 - > I think providing there is the additional support, training, 563 - > coaching, mentoring, for that new manager, then we do have the 564 - > technology in place, the understanding of the human brain 565 - > and psychology to be able to make those people better. 566 - > Everyone has a limit, though, I'd say it's the same with 567 - > football. You know, the level of game that's played today in 568 - > football is very different to level of game that was played 20 569 - > years ago, 30 years ago.

But not everyone has the ability to 570 - > become a Christian art or an owner or a messy but everyone 571 - > has the ability to become, you know, 110 120% better than that. 572 - > Well they were, and a lot of people say, just make yourself 573 - > better, 1% a day at a time, and that compounds over time. So I 574 - > think there's a bigger ceiling that we can reach for but there 575 - > needs to be that, that structure in place, and that understanding 576 - > that you cannot a team that cannot turn six people that are 577 - > responsible for inbound, outbound, SDR functions, closing 578 - > the business and upsell supporting they will just fail 579 - > at all six rather than be good at 580 - > Mark Ackers: one.

Yeah, I think the important caveat that you 581 - > mentioned was if they have the right training and coaching and 582 - > structure around them, which, of course, we know, unfortunately, 583 - > isn't true. It just I had a conversation the other day. I 584 - > speak with a sales leader. They love the idea of my sales coach.

585 - > They have told me my team is not going to hit the number that 586 - > we've been set this year. They are new to the role. They're 587 - > like, kind of green. There's a lot they need to learn and do.

588 - > And they shared with me many examples across the sales 589 - > process where they're struggling, like qualification, 590 - > discovery, getting the right, decision making, criteria, 591 - > understanding how they're going to buy, budget, all of this 592 - > stuff. And it'd been four weeks since we last spoke, which is 593 - > always obviously a warning sign in general. But got on the call 594 - > and they said, I've still not asked my boss if we could buy my 595 - > sales coach.

And I asked why, and they said, I feel like the 596 - > answer is going to be it's your job to fix this, and I 597 - > understand that it is your job to fix this, but doesn't mean 598 - > you have all the answers. So I said to the sales leader, I 599 - > said, Look, when you think of all the things that you ask your 600 - > sales team to do, what part are you weakest at? And by the way, 601 - > everyone's got a part of the way it's at. And he said, 602 - > negotiation.

I said, Okay, so how are you going to get the 603 - > team better at negotiation if that's your weakest part and you 604 - > struggle with that? And then we spoke about how that's one of 605 - > the problems. They're leaving money on the table. They're 606 - > negotiating too early.

They're discounting against themselves. 607 - > I was like, that's what you need to be saying to your CEO. I 608 - > don't have all the answers. I want to learn and develop.

How 609 - > can I do that? It's about working with someone that is 610 - > stronger in that in that area, and that's obviously where a 611 - > sales manager should be able to help. In a lot of cases, they 612 - > they should be stronger, because they've been a top performer, 613 - > and they've been promoted all of that stuff. But the reality is, 614 - > the way in which the landscape is moving and the pace that it's 615 - > moving at, I think expecting a salesy to have all the answers 616 - > really difficult, particularly when they've not done the role 617 - > before.

And this is obviously kind of what you specialise in, 618 - > right? It's about helping people that are now managers know what 619 - > to do. And let's talk about that, right? You make the play 620 - > in your LinkedIn.

It's about knowing what to do on a Monday. 621 - > What does that mean in real life, not on LinkedIn. Help me 622 - > understand you've got a first time manager in front of you. 623 - > What does that really mean to them?

624 - > John Mason: It could be incredibly daunting to be a 625 - > first time manager, and if you're in a very reactive 626 - > environment, you're firefighting, essentially making 627 - > it up as you go along. You don't know what you're going to do on 628 - > Monday, you don't know what you're going to do on Tuesday. 629 - > You're just dealing with whatever shouts the loudest, and 630 - > it's about being able to structure what you need to deal 631 - > with, fixing the problems that the team have, you know from the 632 - > past and the day to day, planning for the future, 633 - > developing the team and developing yourself.

You spoke a 634 - > moment ago about that example of a prospective client for my 635 - > sales coach, that happens way too often. Hence, you guys have 636 - > a business. I do also think that sometimes promoting a team, new 637 - > person into a manager position, if the business thinks they're 638 - > going to solve the problems. And you know, if a sales leader came 639 - > to me and said, I'm not going to hit my number this year, I'd 640 - > sort of put it back and go, like, is your first start?

Is 641 - > your number actually physically attainable? Like, if I got you 642 - > the best SDRs and AES in the world with the current resources 643 - > that you have, the tech, the structure, everything else could 644 - > they hit that number. Because that's also a thing that I don't 645 - > think sales leaders challenge enough, is that sometimes 646 - > numbers can be pulled out of thin air, and they aren't 647 - > unattainable. Don't get me wrong.

I am not scared of a big 648 - > target. I went from. Being an individual contributor at BT, 649 - > dealing in pocket change to being given a million pound 650 - > target for myself to achieve in a year. The king of the caveat, 651 - > if we don't get over 500,000 pounds, it's a red mark against 652 - > us keeping our franchise X number of red marks, and we 653 - > lose.

So, you know, although my target was a million, I had to 654 - > get over by 500 grand by hook or by crook, it was inevitable. Can 655 - > the best of the best do that? And if the best of us can't do 656 - > it, the business needs to have an honest conversation. But 657 - > then, how do you get the most out of those reps?

In that 658 - > example that you were speaking about, he was talking about them 659 - > not being able to do X, Y and Z, internal coaching is brilliant, 660 - > but external coaching is the thing that teams need. They need 661 - > both because they're not experts. I'm not a cold calling 662 - > experts. Why I'm not an SDR coach.

I could do cold calling 663 - > Absolutely I am, probably better than some, but I would always 664 - > play to my strengths. And I think when you're a new leader, 665 - > you need to very quickly identify those strengths, 666 - > identify those weaknesses, and then ask for support on those 667 - > weaknesses, exactly as you said, going back to your your boss and 668 - > saying, I don't want my sales coach to do the heavy lifting of 669 - > the training you expect me to do and the coaching I want my sales 670 - > coach to fix the problem the team have with negotiations, 671 - > even I could learn something about negotiations so I can then 672 - > better train the next generation of leaders.

But for now, I need 673 - > help. It's an area I'm very passionate about. Obviously, I 674 - > feel like I was a bit of an accident manager myself. And in 675 - > addition to that, I know plenty of other sales professionals 676 - > that have gone on to have fantastic careers that were 677 - > accident managers.

You mentioned you wanted to be an AE, you were 678 - > proactive in it. I know an SDR that wants to be an AE, that 679 - > became an SDR manager because the company said, Oh no, no, no, 680 - > no, you. We're not going to promote you to AE. We're going 681 - > to make you the leader of the SDRs.

We need you to be in Team 682 - > Leader of the SDRs like I don't want to manage people. And it 683 - > happens far too often for reasons we've discussed so far. 684 - > One of the biggest reasons is businesses can't afford the 685 - > double hit. You can't afford to take your top forming SDR and 686 - > their performance out of plan.

So you try and keep them in that 687 - > world or your AE, you can't afford to take their number out 688 - > of plan, but they want to be a manager, so you keep the quota 689 - > and ask them to manage. But it's just, it's just unfair. I think 690 - > one of the interesting things you spoke about was about how 691 - > sales leaders have to also think about the future. That's 692 - > Mark Ackers: really hard when every quarter you start at zero, 693 - > and you're always measured by your number, and you live month 694 - > to month.

I kind of compare it to, you know, you use the 695 - > football analogy earlier. I think most football managers get 696 - > less than a season, or maybe a season a half. Whatever the stat 697 - > might be, we all know as football fans, is a short amount 698 - > of time. How are they meant to focus on the Academy and the 699 - > youth team and developing, which is, you know, if you look at 700 - > longevity in the role that's what if you take, you know, 701 - > arguably the very best ever.

So next, Ferguson, it's because he 702 - > was at helm for 27 years, and he used to work on four year 703 - > cycles, always refreshing the team every four years, and a big 704 - > part of that was the Youth Academy and the pipeline in the 705 - > future. As a sales leader, you can't be looking at if you've 706 - > had three bad quarters in a row, you can't say yep, it'd be fine 707 - > in two years, because we're doing this development and 708 - > coaching, and I'm spending time with the team, and I'm listening 709 - > to calls, and we're doing live training and workshops.

You 710 - > can't do that, and I think that's the sad reality. So sales 711 - > leaders get beaten up by the system, and they focus on the 712 - > classics, like they obsess over pipeline and micro management, 713 - > and they become hero managers that join calls and try to save 714 - > deals or win them single handedly, and, you know, or and 715 - > they avoid, like, those hard conversations that they need to 716 - > have internally. I think the other thing that you said was 717 - > interesting is about the disconnect from where the number 718 - > comes from.

I know you said it sort of flippantly, but it like 719 - > your words were. It can feel like the numbers come out of 720 - > thin air. The reality is, it's not come out of thin air. It's 721 - > just not been shared properly with the sales leader.

You know, 722 - > when you set I don't like the word target in sales because it 723 - > that's something you aim for. I do think the word quota is the 724 - > right word to use. I know that when I set my team's quota for 725 - > the year that has been reverse engineered against the plan that 726 - > we've created, and everything centres around that plan, from 727 - > hiring, spend, tech stack, budgets, recruitment, all of it. 728 - > So when a manager gets given a number, they feel like that's 729 - > unachievable, or that's been pulled out of thin air.

That's 730 - > because the plan hasn't been properly shared, and there isn't 731 - > that belief that they can get there, but it would be carefully 732 - > worked out like people will spend. Weeks and weeks, maybe 733 - > months and months, putting together the plan and the quotas 734 - > that go alongside it. But yeah, it feels like what we're 735 - > starting to talk about here is some of the emotional burden 736 - > that you can feel as a sales leader. Let's talk about that, 737 - > right?

You know, the pressure that you can be, the imposter 738 - > syndrome, the, no doubt, the burnout that people feel, and 739 - > what's the emotional bit of leadership that nobody warned 740 - > you about before you take the job? 741 - > John Mason: I guess the emotional bit of leadership is 742 - > you're you're now invested in your team's real motivations. So 743 - > if anyone says they're motivated by money, the chance are you can 744 - > actually pinpoint down further, why they're motivated by money.

745 - > What it is about money that motivates them. They could be a 746 - > family man. They want to make sure that their wife can not 747 - > have to go back to work after their second child. They want to 748 - > get a bigger house.

They're motivated by family, not by 749 - > money. They just need money, which is why they're in sales. 750 - > You are now responsible for other people's personal and 751 - > professional aspirations. I always used to think to myself, 752 - > I want to make sure the people that I lead are better 753 - > professionally and personally.

For every year that I manage 754 - > them, they have to move forward. That is a burden that if you're 755 - > unable to leave your work at the door when you go home, be it 756 - > virtually or in person, that can be can be quite a burden that 757 - > could keep you up at night. That's one of the things that 758 - > you're not necessarily prepared for in leadership, is that 759 - > you're now responsible, in a way, for those people and 760 - > helping them achieve their goals.

I 761 - > Mark Ackers: think there's a couple of interesting things to 762 - > talk about there, so I'm just going to say it as I see it, and 763 - > I'd love you to tell me I'm wrong, because if I'm right, 764 - > it's a sad reality. I think most sales leaders don't truly 765 - > understand each individual's motivation. They might 766 - > understand it at a headline level, or they want to earn more 767 - > money, or they want to buy a house, or, well, they're going 768 - > to go travelling, but I think that's the best that it normally 769 - > is the headline level of the motivation.

I don't think, and 770 - > it's harder in a remote world, which, you know, lots of people 771 - > operating or hybrid, but yeah, I'm gonna say, as it is. I think 772 - > most sales leaders would say, Yes, I know what my team are 773 - > motivated by. If you really pushed on it beyond the 774 - > headline, I think they'd struggle. Do you think that's 775 - > fair, or have I got that wrong?

776 - > John Mason: I think I think that is fair, and I think it actually 777 - > goes to a bigger and wider issue. The same surface level 778 - > answer without probing could be so for pipeline, yeah, you know, 779 - > sales leaders think they know what's going on in their 780 - > pipeline, but they don't. They haven't probed deep enough if a 781 - > company doesn't pass down the target structure correctly, the 782 - > quota structure correctly. It's because when you know the top 783 - > levels pass it down to the second level, the second level 784 - > hasn't asked an important why question.

So when it gets down 785 - > to the fourth level, they've got no idea. I think especially in 786 - > sales, we need to be more inquisitive and ask why, and 787 - > probe further and not take everything at face value, 788 - > because there is a underlying cause. I'm motivated by success. 789 - > Money is a byproduct of success.

I know that I'm motivated by 790 - > success because if I was in a role where we were not hitting 791 - > quota, and I was feeling miserable for missing quote all 792 - > the time, and someone offered a pay rise to keep me because I 793 - > could leave, you know, and get 20 something else. Well, I 794 - > wouldn't stay to fail. I'd rather leave earn less money and 795 - > be successful. So if you don't know what your own individual 796 - > motivator is and the level of depth that you can give to that 797 - > answer, how would you expect to be able to question your team?

798 - > You'll just take the top level answer, which is not just about 799 - > their motivations. It's the sad reality of of discovery, right? 800 - > You know, being able to go further, we should all learn to 801 - > be detectives that have to solve murders. I think that would 802 - > help.

803 - > Mark Ackers: I am. I love that analogy. I've said many times I 804 - > love watching, particularly the BBC and ITV have done great 805 - > detective shows, and I love the interrogation scenes because I 806 - > feel like they just ask great open ended questions to get to 807 - > the truth and to solve the crime. And one of my analogies 808 - > in the recent book that I wrote my colleague, rich Smith, 809 - > deconstructing discovery, we have this golden minute.

And 810 - > again, I took that from a crime scene that Trevor McDonald was 811 - > exploring, and they speak about the golden hour, how you have to 812 - > solve the case, or get as much as you can the first hour, 813 - > because what you solve there really links the outcome. So 814 - > yeah, you tell you, right, we have got to be detective. You've 815 - > got to have that natural ability to keep asking questions, even 816 - > when you feel like you've asked enough. And I remember there's 817 - > been times in my career where I feel like I know everybody in 818 - > the team's personal challenges and frustrations outside of 819 - > work.

And whilst that can be a heavy burden to have, you have 820 - > to learn the school to disconnect from it and leave 821 - > leave work when you do etc. But yeah, your job is to help them 822 - > as human beings, not just sales people. But I think one of the 823 - > other mistakes that you see sales leaders make, and I was, I 824 - > was really guilty of this earlier on in my management 825 - > career, was, let's remember why sales managers are in that role. 826 - > Most of the time.

It's because they were top performers and 827 - > they've been promoted. Top performers are typically 828 - > ambitious. They're they crave success and all that stuff, 829 - > right? They want it.

You can be guilty of assuming everyone is 830 - > as motivated as you are. They have the same drive, the same 831 - > moment, same motivation. It was only when I took and we offer 832 - > these at my sales coach, but I took our I took our sales DNA 833 - > assessment, and it's, it's incredibly in depth. It's like 834 - > 45 page report on who you are as either an individual contributor 835 - > or a manager or a manager of managers.

And there was this 836 - > page on how I motivate the team, and it basically, in black and 837 - > white said, You do not understand how your team are 838 - > motivated. You assume everyone's motivated like you, and they're 839 - > not. And that was a bit. That was a big shit moment, and I 840 - > made it my mission, therefore, to go and really understand 841 - > motivations and drivers.

And you know how they like to spend 842 - > their time outside of work, and I think, but again, it's hard to 843 - > do that when you manage big teams and you're under pressure 844 - > and you're remote, and you're new to the role, and you've got 845 - > a quota. There's so much 846 - > John Mason: going on there. Here's what I'd love to hear 847 - > from you, though, right? What as a sales leader can you do to 848 - > really get through all of that crap?

Like, how do you get 849 - > through all of that on a day to day basis. What are the ways in 850 - > which you can identify the team, understand their motivations, 851 - > put the plans in place, build for the future, not, not not 852 - > carry a quote like there's so much there. Help me understand 853 - > what is your playbook? You've got a first time manager in 854 - > front of you.

They don't know what to do on a Monday. How do 855 - > they bring it to life? How do you bring to life? Even caffeine 856 - > and sarcasm would be the two things.

No, it's a great 857 - > question, because there's a lot to do. I think prioritisation is 858 - > key. So if you are just stepping into a new manager, work out the 859 - > input, yeah, the important things that needs to be done. 860 - > Now, get a real grip on your diary.

Put in dedicated time 861 - > that's you know, it can be rescheduled in the same week for 862 - > conflicts, but it is dedicated to your team, whether it's a 863 - > Monday morning catch up or Friday afternoon before you go 864 - > off for the weekend, time together, one to one separate 865 - > your pipeline reviews from time with the team. So instead of 866 - > doing an hour on pipeline, do 30 minutes on pipeline and 30 867 - > minutes on them. Have they got anything they want to bring to 868 - > the conversation?

Ensure that you're getting the most out of 869 - > your one to ones with your your manager, because they are the 870 - > person that's supposed to help you move forward. These are all 871 - > things that I'm trying to put down into into a playbook and a 872 - > framework that isn't just in my head, because you know, you'll 873 - > know this as well from from forming your business. It can be 874 - > very much a case of, I just, I just do it right, and that will 875 - > be the thing that I'm looking forward to most, to finishing, 876 - > is that blueprint of what's the first man, first time manager, 877 - > need to do in their first, second, third, fourth month.

So 878 - > if they were to receive coaching from me or from anyone else, 879 - > whether they did it for 123456, months, they know what they're 880 - > able to achieve at the end of that period. And the chances are 881 - > the things they think they have to do are things they have to do 882 - > later, not immediately, there'll be more pressing and burning 883 - > issues to deal with. Straight off the bat. Can 884 - > Mark Ackers: you give me some examples of things that they 885 - > often prioritise that can wait 886 - > John Mason: they want to put their stamp on something.

So 887 - > they're going to change the sales terminology that they use 888 - > or process, you know? We're going to start using medic, you 889 - > know, or we're going to get this new bit of tech in. I think a 890 - > lot of people, when they come in new try to put their stamp on 891 - > things. I think that they feel the need to impress, especially 892 - > if they've been promoted.

You know, did we deserve and earn 893 - > that promotion, or did we kind of wing it? And then you start 894 - > to try and do things that we think can impress? The most 895 - > important thing I think you need to do is understand your current 896 - > state. So what are the team doing now?

What are your 897 - > metrics, the average order, value, conversion, ratio, 898 - > velocity, etc, and get hold of that plan that you spoke about 899 - > there, where your target must be based on some sorry, your quota 900 - > must be based on some assumptions. You know, we're 901 - > going to get this many leads and convert them for this much 902 - > value. Reverse engineer your target. Are your current metrics 903 - > going to going to get you there?

Do you need to improve the 904 - > metrics? What metrics do you need to improve? Where can you 905 - > get help improving 906 - > Mark Ackers: them? Let's talk about metrics.

Because one of 907 - > the things I've enjoyed is you've spoken in the past about 908 - > leaders chasing the wrong metrics, and when they chase the 909 - > wrong metrics, it encourages the wrong behaviour. And you give 910 - > the example of the hospital being measured on waiting times. 911 - > Tell us. All about that analogy and how that links to the wrong 912 - > metrics and the wrong behaviours as a result.

913 - > John Mason: Yeah, it's nothing that I've come up with. I've 914 - > definitely heard it from someone else, probably Rory Sutherland, 915 - > who's a brilliant marketing genius. So if you said to an A 916 - > and E department, you need to reduce a and e waiting times, if 917 - > they focus on the number as opposed to the patient outcome, 918 - > they will do things which ticks that operational number box that 919 - > doesn't actually solve the problem. And what actually does 920 - > happen in a live example is you have patients in corridors.

You 921 - > have patients still in ambulances that have not been 922 - > admitted to any yet, because if we admit them, the clock starts, 923 - > so let's keep them outside in the ambulance, then our clock 924 - > doesn't start. None of those things actually solve the issue. 925 - > They just deal with the symptoms rather than the root cause. So 926 - > if you chase the number, I've got to hit 100 dials a day, what 927 - > you're going to do then is consider success being hit 100 928 - > dials, whereas if you turn around and say, I want to have 929 - > 20 meaningful conversations, completely different thing, you 930 - > know, again, it's a bit metricy.

You could have 20 meaningful 931 - > conversations in 20 dials, or you could have 20 meaningful 932 - > conversations in 100 dials. You try to do something that isn't 933 - > just that tick box exercise of Look what we did, because 100 934 - > dials a day doesn't get you to quota. It might do by fluke, but 935 - > ultimately, you want to book two appointments, three 936 - > appointments, make a sale. So look at the root causes of the 937 - > things you're trying to achieve, the outcomes, not just the 938 - > symptoms and the metrics, 939 - > Mark Ackers: sales leaders.

I guarantee this, the forecast 940 - > you're looking at isn't accurate. Why? Because your reps 941 - > have deals that become stuck in the pipeline, things like 942 - > champion leaving, not being taken to power competitor enters 943 - > the deal at the last minute. They're ghosting.

You imagine if 944 - > your reps had access on demand to support where they could get 945 - > one to one deal coaching with one of our expert coaches. 946 - > That's what we provide. Your reps can use it proactively. 947 - > Perhaps they've got a meeting coming up and they want to 948 - > ensure they're putting their best foot forward.

They can book 949 - > time with a coach and prepare for that upcoming meeting, or 950 - > perhaps it's reactively. There's a snag, there's a last minute 951 - > problem. They need help moving an opportunity forward. They can 952 - > book same day coaching with one of our expert sales coaches and 953 - > get help deal.

Coaching gives your reps every opportunity to 954 - > secure the best outcome and keep your forecast as accurate as 955 - > possible. One of the things that I'd love to get your take on is, 956 - > how does a sales leader draw judgement on the team that 957 - > perhaps have inherited and their true capabilities, their 958 - > weaknesses, the opportunities to improve. How does a sales leader 959 - > go about getting that insight without having their biasness 960 - > affect what they believe to be true?

What do you see sales 961 - > leaders do to get a real grip on where the team are today and 962 - > where they need to get them to I think 963 - > John Mason: it's really important, because you might 964 - > have biases positive and negative. You might think 965 - > someone is taking their foot off the gas, or that they are 966 - > really, really good at their job, and they're not that. I 967 - > think the way that you would try to understand the real scenario 968 - > of what's happening, not just your biases, is to get into the 969 - > data.

The data will tell you what their average order value 970 - > is, the average order value of the team of the other members. 971 - > Where do they stack in comparison? Where is the 972 - > comparison average for the industry, you know, how well are 973 - > you guys as an individuals or team, doing we can be over 974 - > inundated with data in sales. You know, we've never had more 975 - > data at our fingertips, but have we had the right data at our 976 - > fingertips?

You know, I believe, I believe this. Since I first 977 - > saw an OMG sales assessment, I've done one myself as well. It 978 - > is brutally honest, like you said, honest, like you said, can 979 - > really open up your eyes. And I remember seeing Ben from OMG and 980 - > Tim Ergo from toggle consulting present at a CRO event that I 981 - > was at, and I just sort of looked at it and I went, this is 982 - > the data that you need to understand.

You know, the 21 983 - > different outputs that you can factor into, whether it's a 984 - > sales DNA, their ability to accept rejection, the 985 - > negotiating skills, etc, see whether or not you've got the 986 - > right people in the right jobs. This was a presentation on, you 987 - > know, the cost of hiring, the strain of resource and getting 988 - > it wrong. You know, you could have SDRs that become AES 989 - > because they think that is their career path, but they could be 990 - > the best SDR since sliced bread, and make a terrible AE, they 991 - > could actually be the best CSM person ever, unless you actually 992 - > look for the right data to understand your your team or 993 - > your future hires, I think you will just get cluttered by the 994 - > bias and potentially This noise unnecessary data.

995 - > Mark Ackers: Yeah, so the assessments you speak about, 996 - > yeah, like, just for those listening, that's exactly the 997 - > same assessment that I spoke about when I when it highlighted 998 - > to me that my motivation, I believe everyone's motivated 999 - > like I am, and it was a big learning point for me that 1000 - > having that data is paramount, because it gives you that 1001 - > crystal. Clear insight into the team and the individuals. And 1002 - > here's what you notice, everyone's different.

Everyone 1003 - > has different strengths, be that tactically, but more 1004 - > importantly, that mindset piece that we spoke about. And if you 1005 - > can't fix the mindset and the behaviours, it doesn't really 1006 - > matter what you help them with tactically, because they've got 1007 - > what I would call like hand brakes on that affect their 1008 - > mental the mental side of sales that you know they're let's give 1009 - > some examples, right? So they might have a poor operating 1010 - > system so they need to be liked and loved by their prospects.

1011 - > They are uncomfortable talking about money. They let people buy 1012 - > from them, how they buy themselves? Let's talk about 1013 - > their natural drive. They might have a high desire to be 1014 - > successful, but a low commitment to actually doing it.

You know, 1015 - > they don't actually want to do things that are uncomfortable, 1016 - > even though they'd love to be successful. Perhaps they don't 1017 - > take responsibility for the number that that's been set, and 1018 - > they'll always blame marketing or leads or events or the 1019 - > economy rather than how effective they were. And I think 1020 - > this links really nicely, because you know, if you have 1021 - > that data, I mean doing these assessments, I think it could 1022 - > take you years to get that level of insight, which you can get 1023 - > within an hour of someone completing an assessment, but 1024 - > you've spoken about frameworks and hard data, and you mentioned 1025 - > it earlier on, like one of the things that people should leave 1026 - > until later is a framework, right that you gave the example 1027 - > of, I think it's a med pick.

Why? Why do you feel like people 1028 - > prefer the comfort of frameworks versus the discomfort of data. I 1029 - > John Mason: think it comes down to the we think it's a silver 1030 - > bullet. We think it's the thing that's going to solve our 1031 - > problems.

You know, make $100 a day, have a tech system that's 1032 - > got a million different data points use AI, implement a new 1033 - > framework, a new sales methodology. This is the reason 1034 - > why my team is not successful. This is going to solve all my 1035 - > problems. I think that's what we fall foul of.

You should deploy 1036 - > medic when you want to understand how you can go from a 1037 - > 30% conversion ratio to a 40% conversion ratio, which areas of 1038 - > the process are maybe lacking. So, you know, is it 1039 - > understanding the economic buyer. Is it understanding the 1040 - > competition? Is it understanding decision criteria, etc?

Who does 1041 - > what at what stages, and who does it well and things like 1042 - > that. That's what should be done. But what actually happens 1043 - > more often than not, is people go, Yeah, let's put medic or med 1044 - > pick in, and you just feel your CRM nonsense. You don't actually 1045 - > take the learnings.

I know, obviously, you know, seeing a 1046 - > few reports that yourselves, my sales coach and other training 1047 - > providers, or SaaS providers in the tech space, in the sales 1048 - > space, have put out there that more often than not, things are 1049 - > more successful when a good discovery is done. You know, 1050 - > things are more successful when the more people you know, fill 1051 - > out medic correctly, not just as tick box exercise, but as an 1052 - > outcome exercise.

If I do these things correctly, I'm going to 1053 - > be successful. The correctly bit is important. If I do these 1054 - > things, I'll be successful. It doesn't work all of the time.

It 1055 - > only works some of the time. So I think that's why people jump 1056 - > to that silver bullet, the thing is going to make their team 1057 - > better. What is missing? You know, it's volume.

Let's get a 1058 - > parallel dialer, 200 dials. It's tech. Let's get to get LEM list, 1059 - > and let's get fully rich. It's AI.

Let's send out 1000 emails 1060 - > that they're all personalised. Or it's a new sales methodology 1061 - > and framework. If I just deploy this, it will be fantastic. 1062 - > Mark Ackers: I think it's just something to hide behind.

You 1063 - > can point to look, I've done this, I've deployed this 1064 - > technology, I've deployed this framework. It's not me. It's not 1065 - > my fault. It's gone wrong.

I think when most companies want 1066 - > to there's here's here's the things that sales leaders really 1067 - > care about, right? It's headlines, of course, but 1068 - > improving revenue, improving pipeline, upsell, cross, sell, 1069 - > and when you think about those things, they're like, they're 1070 - > headline problems, right? We want more revenue. We want 1071 - > revenue from different places.

We know we need more pipeline to 1072 - > do that, and where most revenue is lost is in the quality of 1073 - > your sales team, sales conversations, right? Like what 1074 - > they do and what they don't do in those sales conversations, 1075 - > that's where your company leaks revenue. But to go in and fix 1076 - > that requires a manager, one, to spend the time, two, to put 1077 - > themselves out there and say, This is where I think you've 1078 - > gone wrong, and it's their opinion, it's their belief, it's 1079 - > their coaching and and I think that that sometimes is hard for 1080 - > a manager to do.

There's that imposter syndrome, there's that 1081 - > self doubt, there's that I don't want to give this feedback to 1082 - > this individual. I don't want to carve out time. You know, 1083 - > listening to calls is time consuming. I.

I know, and again, 1084 - > I get slightly worried that people feel like they can hide 1085 - > behind Oh, we'll just automate that now. We can build a 1086 - > scorecard in conversation intelligence, and that will 1087 - > surface it. But the art of the sales conversation is where most 1088 - > companies leak revenue. And it might not be in that call, but 1089 - > it would be what didn't happen that call is the reason your 1090 - > deal much further down the line doesn't come in, or it slips, or 1091 - > they ghost you.

And I think, I think if you can hide behind, 1092 - > well, the medic scorecards filled out, or, you know, we've 1093 - > done some training on this, or I've done a DISC profile on the 1094 - > team. It's stuff you can hide behind, 1095 - > John Mason: just tick box exercise, isn't it? It's 1096 - > Mark Ackers: just tick 1097 - > box. But what you have to do as a sales leader is immerse 1098 - > yourself in what is the quality of the conversations my sales 1099 - > team are having.

And to do that, you have to really put yourself 1100 - > out there. And there's no way to hide. I've listened to this 1101 - > call. This is what I think we need to be doing differently, 1102 - > and then putting that into practice.

But just because you 1103 - > do it once doesn't mean it changes. It's a constant 1104 - > listening to calls and reinforcement. But I don't know. 1105 - > I feel like a lot of leaders are reluctant to do that because of 1106 - > time, because of will and skill.

It is a skill to be able to 1107 - > listen to and coach sales conversations effectively that 1108 - > drive positive change as well, where it's not a skill to 1109 - > implement a framework, it's you get it done, and you maybe bring 1110 - > someone in, or a consultant or and whatnot. So that's my 1111 - > thinking. But what would you say to that? I'd 1112 - > John Mason: agree.

I definitely think it's something to hide 1113 - > behind. And like you said, then, you know, just use a scorecard 1114 - > and get AI to read all our read all of our transcripts from our 1115 - > calls and tell us what was good or bad. But if you actually 1116 - > listen to the calls, you might pick up on some nuances that are 1117 - > just completely subjective to that call, that interaction 1118 - > between that client and that AE or that SDR that you wouldn't 1119 - > pick up just from the scorecard.

And if that thing that has come 1120 - > up is actually a much deeper root cause or underlying 1121 - > problem. It's something to fix. You'll find it quicker. I think 1122 - > you can leverage AI to identify which calls to listen to, so 1123 - > that, because, yeah, you can't listen to all of them rather 1124 - > than randomly checking them.

Can we be a bit more selective? Same 1125 - > way we would do it for ICP, is there a way which I can filter 1126 - > this data down so that I've got the greater chance of listening 1127 - > to a call that I can actually gain a teachable moment from 1128 - > it's also a difficult conversation. You've got to tell 1129 - > someone that they're, you know, not doing it right. Is that 1130 - > opinion, you know?

Is it fact? Is it subjective? How do they 1131 - > take criticism? How do you deliver criticism?

You know, do 1132 - > you do the sandwich method or various other words? Do you, as 1133 - > a leader, take time to go? I'm not being coached on how to do 1134 - > this. Let me go and research how to do it.

You spoke earlier in 1135 - > this, in this interview where you said you're constantly 1136 - > saying as an SDR to your AE, can I take this off your plate? Not 1137 - > everyone thinks of that instant what I can do next. Some people 1138 - > are waiting to be told. As a sales leader, you need to very 1139 - > quickly realise you need to work out what you need and where you 1140 - > can get it, what your team needs and where they can get 1141 - > Mark Ackers: it.

And I think that's a lovely way to bring the 1142 - > conversation to a close. I really enjoyed getting to get 1143 - > into speech here today, John, you know, we've spoke about how 1144 - > people fall into leadership roles. They might chase it 1145 - > because they're a top performer, and it feels like the next step. 1146 - > How companies back it, because they feel like they're a company 1147 - > that's showing progression, and they don't want to lose their 1148 - > top performer, we spoke about the challenges that can bring 1149 - > where they don't want to lose the revenue so they give them 1150 - > the quota as well.

And when I spoke about how leadership is 1151 - > just a completely different job, like different skills, different 1152 - > pressures, different emotional load, and you need people to 1153 - > help you make that shift. You need support from the 1154 - > organisation. We need support from internal and external 1155 - > coaching. And we need to not just focus on the month and the 1156 - > quarter, but look ahead and really put our team forward, 1157 - > team first, I should say.

And I love the parent analogy, and I 1158 - > think to anyone that's got kids myself included, I think that 1159 - > really does bring it to life. But yeah, John, I just want to 1160 - > say, yeah, thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise 1161 - > today. I think this is a great episode for anybody that is 1162 - > thinking about making the step into a leadership role, or 1163 - > they've just got their first leadership role, and they're 1164 - > thinking shit, what do I do on a Monday?

Thank you, John, you're 1165 - > John Mason: welcome. Thank you. 1166 - > Mark Ackers: You.