HealthTech Hour · 2026-09-08 · 52 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
65 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Laura Earnshaw left a senior HR role at AstraZeneca after a family mental health crisis and her young son's school struggles to build myHappymind, a preventative mental health education platform now operating in over 2,000 schools across the UK. The platform delivers age-appropriate emotional literacy and resilience training - teaching three-year-olds about their brains and self-regulation, progressing through character strength development - via a technology-enabled content platform that equips teachers with knowledge they typically lack from initial training. Rather than treating mental health crises downstream, myHappymind addresses what Earnshaw sees as a preventable crisis: one million UK young adults aged 18-25 cite mental health as a barrier to work, education, or training, while a million children currently wait for CAMHS services (double the 2018 figure). Earnshaw's customer discovery approach - launching with just two test schools and iterating based on teacher feedback - proved critical to adoption, as schools struggle with confidence, time, and competing pressures. Independent data from Portsmouth Local Authority shows severe persistent absence increased 120% in non-myHappymind schools over two years versus 20% in program schools, with suspensions dropping significantly and attainment improving eight times faster. The platform targets a systemic gap: schools are measured on exam results, not wellbeing, so mental health skills remain deprioritized unless explicitly embedded in the curriculum.
One million young adults aged 18-25 are not in education, employment, or training, with over 40% citing mental health as the reason. Additionally, one million children are currently waiting for mental health services (CAMHS), which has doubled since 2018-2019, indicating a preventable crisis that starts early in childhood.
Schools access a website platform and select age-appropriate lessons; teachers project pre-made content (animations, games, songs, quizzes) onto classroom whiteboards without needing specialist mental health knowledge. Content ranges from teaching three-year-olds about their brains and breathing strategies to older children learning character strengths and emotional regulation.
An independent Portsmouth Local Authority study showed severe persistent absence increased 120% in schools without the program versus only 20% in myHappymind schools over two years, suspensions dropped significantly, and student attainment improved at eight times the rate compared to non-program schools.
Teachers aren't trained in this content during teacher training (often receiving only an afternoon in a three-year degree), they lack confidence to teach it, and schools are measured on exam results in maths and English, not student wellbeing, so it remains deprioritized unless explicitly embedded in the curriculum.
By teaching emotional regulation and resilience skills early, the program prevents many children from reaching crisis point and requiring clinical services, reducing referrals to CAMHS and even speech and language therapy, addressing the preventable portion of mental health issues rather than treating them reactively.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains solid foundational insights about preventative mental health in schools and some concrete data points (attendance/suspension improvements, 40% of NEETs citing mental health), but relies heavily on well-established prevention frameworks and lacks deeply novel operational takeaways. Much runtime is spent on origin story and motivational narrative rather than actionable insights a B2B operator hasn't encountered.
There's a million between the age of 18 and 25. And what most of them say in the data, over 40% of them, is because it's some kind of mental health issue.
Attendance in non my happy mind schools over this two year period increased by 120. In my happy mind schools, severe persistent absence only increased by 20%.
The core thesis - that mental health skills should be taught preventatively in schools - is not contrarian; it's widely acknowledged in education and health circles. The approach of embedding content into existing school infrastructure via technology is sensible but not particularly novel. The guest reiterates standard prevention-vs-treatment logic without fresh angles or counterintuitive arguments.
So much of it is preventable.
We're teaching three year olds about their brains. Where they live in their heads. Uh, we're teaching 3 year olds that their brains control everything that they do.
Laura Earnshaw is a genuine operator: founder of a live business serving 2,000+ schools, has navigated NHS commissioning, scaled a team to 40, and demonstrates deep domain knowledge of school adoption dynamics and mental health policy. However, she is not a household name and the company, while established and impactful, is mid-scale rather than mega-scale, limiting the caliber relative to Fortune 500 operators or breakthrough-stage founders.
I did business at uni and then I joined Accenture. On their milk round consulting scheme mostly because they did a good starting bonus which was good on the student debt.
I remember getting to 150 schools and it was still me and my kitchen table.
The episode includes concrete metrics from the Portsmouth study (120% increase in severe absence in control schools vs. 20% in treatment schools, 8x attainment improvement), and specific operational details (3-year-old curriculum content, lessons projected on whiteboards, subscription model). However, evidence is limited to one study; causality claims lack rigorous controls; and most financial/growth metrics are vague (team size, pricing, revenue omitted entirely).
Attendance in non my happy mind schools over this two year period increased by 120. In my happy mind schools, severe persistent absence only increased by 20%.
Attainment... massively improves to the tune of like eight times the rate of schools that don't have the program.
The host asks sharp follow-ups on customer discovery, commissioning challenges, and perverse incentives in NHS funding (notably the moment a commissioner admits prevention might reduce referral targets). However, many opportunities for deeper probing are missed: no pushback on the causality of the attendance data, no detailed exploration of competitive alternatives, no grilling on unit economics or path to profitability, and the tone often becomes celebratory rather than investigative.
So commissioners, I've got to get, you know, I've got a target of getting a thousand young people through therapy, but if I put my happy mind in, a thousand people might not need therapy. Therefore, if I commission you, I might not hit my target.
And roughly like the other, other factors are roughly equalized.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Children's mental health, prevention vs treatment, resilience, self-esteem, the CAMHS waiting list - Laura Earnshaw, Founder of myHappymind, on why we're solving children's mental health at the wrong end, and what teaching it early actually looks like. What if most children's mental health problems could be prevented years before they ever reach a waiting list? Steve Roest sits down with Laura Earnshaw, former Global Head of Talent at AstraZeneca, now Founder and CEO of myHappymind, the NHS-backed programme in over 2,000 schools. After her own son struggled at school and a family member was sectioned, Laura left her corporate career to build the skills she'd been teaching senior leaders for children as young as three.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: There's a million between the age of 18 and 25. And what most of them say in the data, over 40% of them, is because it's some kind of mental health issue. And there's also a million kids who are waiting for mental health services in the UK right now. Doubled since 2018. 2019.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: So there is something going on. They said that they just needed to develop a stiff upper lip.
Speaker B: The child, your son?
Speaker A: The four year old? Yeah, the four year old. And you know, this wasn't in the 1700s. We're teaching three year olds about their brains.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Where they live, in their heads.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, we're teaching three year olds that their brains control everything that they do, including their bodies and how they feel. We're teaching 3 year olds what to do if their brain feels busy. The health system, the local authority system, isn't necessarily set up to think about that holistic picture because they've all got their own metrics and their own targets. Somebody in my family had been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
Speaker B: Hello and welcome to this week's Health Tech Hour with me, Steve Roust. Each week we bring you the best news, views and interviews with the CEOs, founders, clinicians, lawyers, journalists, investors, uh, who are changing the face of healthcare in the UK and uh, beyond. As everyone listening knows, I am a CEO and co founder of a health tech business myself called pocdoc. POCDOC has built the digital infrastructure that's required to scale prevention for cardiovascular disease, metabolic and kidney disease across the world. Our flagship product, the Healthy Heart Check, is Now the number one tool being used outside of GP surgery to check your heart health in the UK. If you'd like any more information about PocDoc, head to PocDoc Co, PocDoc Co, or you can find the test on the shelf at Boots well Pharmacy. To you, Superdrug. The list goes on. Thank you to pocdoc for all of the support with the show. Thank you also to everybody listening live on UK Health Radio. We love the live platform. UK Health Radio has a ton of other presenters doing great shows, so please check them out and thank you also if you're listening on demand on the podcast channels or watching us on YouTube. So as of this show, we are now available, fully available, translated into French, German, Japanese, Spanish and Arabic. So bonjour, guten tag, Konnichiwa, Hola and salaamwalekom to all of our wonderful international listeners. We think we are now the most globally accessible health tech podcast and we get Downloads in over 50 countries every single month, which blows my mind every single time. So onto today's show. On today's show we've got one of the most inspirational people in the UK health tech scene. Someone that I look up to as part of an NHS group that I'm part of. Um, and someone that's done really charted a really unique course in her career and then moved across into a. Well at the time when she started her company, My Happy Mind was probably considered to be a rather neglected area, I suspect of the health tech industry. So um, my Happy Mind is a preventative mental health education platform targeted at children and it's available in over 2,000 schools across the UK. And we have the founder, Laura Earnshaw on today's show. Laura, welcome to the show. How are you?
Speaker A: So much. I'm really good, thanks for having me.
Speaker B: Great. So like you had a fairly non healthcare route into healthcare.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Right. So what was that like?
Speaker A: Yeah, it was crazy. So I did business at uni and then I joined Accenture.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: On their milk round consulting scheme mostly because they did a good starting bonus which was good on the student debt. Um, and then I kind of found myself in the human capital consulting space. So I worked across different industries with Accenture and then I went into um, AstraZeneca. So I was kind of in a farmer environment for a while, but always in the human resource type space. So I used to work in um, leadership development, talent management and ended up being the global head of talent, um, and development for AstraZeneca. So working with the CEO there and the top kind of 200 leaders on helping them to become um, the best leaders they could be. So I became a kind of an expert in the science of resilience and well being. And to be honest my plan was just to keep climbing the greasy ladder of corporate life. Um, but that all changed when uh. Yeah, a couple of life experiences which we can get into change the course. So, um, when my firstborn started school at age 4, really struggled with that transition into school.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Um, so crying at the school gate, kind of like holding on to my leg saying I don't want to go in tears at bedtime. And I went in to see the school and I was like, look, what's, what's the plan here? This doesn't seem to be getting any easier, it seems to be getting harder. And they said that they just needed to develop a stiff upper lip which.
Speaker B: The child.
Speaker A: The four year old? Yeah, the four year old. Um, okay. And you know, this wasn't in the 1700s, it wasn't that long ago. So, particularly unhappy with that response, as you can imagine. So went home and started to think about how I could support him and realized that actually all of the strategies that was teaching these Senior leaders in AstraZeneca were exactly the same strategies that they needed. So, you know, learning how to self regulate, learning how to be resilient, learning how to build positive relationships, like it's, it's the same science whether you're an adult or a 4 year old. So anyway, I didn't actually at that point plan to do much with that other than help him. Um, but towards the end of that first year in school, they called me back in and they were like, what, what have you done? Like, we've seen this big transformation actually. We've got loads of kids like this. We don't, we don't know what to do. We're not trained in this stuff.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: The only time we really get involved is when it's so bad that they get referred into, uh, cams.
Speaker B: I was like, cams being the mental health service. Yep.
Speaker A: So anyway, still thought it was bonkers, but said, okay, well here's what I've been doing. Feel free to use it. And then about six months after that, I, uh, received a phone call that I describe as like having a double decker bus crashing into me at million miles an hour, which was to tell me that somebody in my family had been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
Speaker B: Oh, wow.
Speaker A: Now this was a person who, you know, great job, happily married, three kids in private school. Like, from the outside looking in, everything looked pretty rosy. Um, but they had cracked under the mental health pressure they were facing. So went to visit them in the secure mental health hospital in London, which is an experience I'll never forget.
Speaker B: That's sobering.
Speaker A: Yeah. For reasons that you can imagine. And as I drove back up north, where I live from London, somewhere on the M25, I just decided that if mental health issues could affect my child, who really had grown up in a very privileged, happy home, and it could affect this person who by society standards kind of had it all, then it could affect anyone. So I quit my job at AstraZeneca and told my husband I was going to build a program to help the children to be happy. At which point I think he thought I was going a bit mad myself, to be honest. And, um, but that was 10 years ago. And yeah, the rest is history.
Speaker B: And like, what was it that really led you to build it? Like, because you could have that Self Talk on the M25 on the way back ended up in a variety of different executions. So how did it go from that? Which was a fairly. There's a singular statement, I'm going to build something that helps children with their mental health. How did that then get filtered down into what you then launched?
Speaker A: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I'd like to say I was really smart and it was like a, you know, a process that I went through. But I guess I just saw this massive gap in education and, you know, the stats on kids mental health, you know, 10 years ago we weren't talking about it as much as obviously we are today. But the reality is schools are uh, the absolute perfect place to be teaching kids skills to thrive because, you know, the kids are there all day, every day, they've got the trust of the family, kids are generally there a lot of the time. So I just felt like it was this travesty that we were missing this opportunity to teach what are really quite simple skills in schools. And I just knew that it wasn't happening, so I just thought maybe that's the place to start.
Speaker B: And it wasn't happening. It wasn't happening because they hadn't. It's just not in the curriculum.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's not in the curriculum, it's not prioritised. And if you look at how schools get measured, they get measured on results, you know, they get measured on SAT results in the mainstream system here. So you know how well children can read, how well they can do maths. No one's looking at measuring a school based on how happy their kids are or what the state of well being is in that school.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And what gets measured gets done.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: So I wanted to just do something that made it part of the school day so that emotional literacy becomes as commonplace as numeracy on the curriculum. And that's my mission.
Speaker B: That's super interesting. On the last show that we had Penny Dash on, um, she at the end of the show was talking about how she's very concerned about the sort of sub 40 year old.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Which right the way down to children coming through the school system, a sort of inherent lack of resilience and coping skills.
Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're going to look at the latest stats on NEETs, those that in the UK who are not in education, employment or training. There's a million between the age of 18 and 25.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And what most of them say in the data, over 40% of them, is because it's some kind of mental health Issue, is it? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: And there's also a million kids, um, who are waiting for mental health services in the UK right now.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: A report that just came out in June, that's, uh, huge m doubled since 2018. 2019.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: So there is something going on. Much of which tracks back to Covid, I'm sure.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: In our young people's ability to cope with and be resilient in the face of uncertainty and adversity, which is only increasing.
Speaker B: And you can't treat your way out of that. I don't believe, unfortunately, as much as I'm not. Look, everyone's in a bad spot, but you can't invent more child psychologist places.
Speaker A: You can't and you don't need to. So much of it is preventable.
Speaker B: Well, yeah. So this is where you come in. Right.
Speaker A: So much of it's preventable. Yeah. And it's, you know, your work's about prevention as well. Right. Taking it downstream. That's what it's all about. It's about acknowledging that there are a proportion of children for whom, if they have the right skills and the right strategies early, then they will not have the same experience as they. As they otherwise would.
Speaker B: So I think what's really interesting about, um, my happy mind, really impressive is the. So, uh, outside in. Not my sector. Right. So bear that in mind. Anyone listening before you start shouting at me, um, is like, it's you. I'm sure there have been different people at different times in different schools who have tried to do something like this. Thematically similar, not the same execution at all. But the fact that you've managed to scale it so effectively to 2000 schools is really, really impressive. M. Because I'm sure that, you know, in what is the PSHE lesson or whatever it is probably has come up. Right. But actually the fact that you managed to create something scalable is super impress.
Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you. Um, I mean, I'm just obsessive about listening to the customer and seeing the problem.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Um, and I've always just been totally focused on what's the impact I want to make.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: And how do I make it easy for schools to deliver it. And I think those two things together have made us able to create something that schools want to use.
Speaker B: And how much is it technology and how much is it content? Programmatical content or a bit of both?
Speaker A: It's a bit of both, yes. It's delivered via technology, which makes it really scalable. Sure. Um, but it's a content. It's a Content platform. I think, you know, there's a couple of reasons teachers haven't historically taught the type of content we teach and a big part of that is around confidence. Teachers aren't, aren't taught this stuff on teacher training. In fact, I did a lecture at Liverpool, I think it was a couple of months ago on their teacher training course and I asked a couple of pupils, oh, how much have you done around mental health and wellbeing? And they said oh yeah, we had an afternoon on it. On a three year degree.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And you're thinking, well, hang on a minute, yeah, what do we expect then? So we're putting teachers in classrooms without the knowledge and the skill to teach this stuff. So what we do is we put that knowledge and skill in the palm of their hands.
Speaker B: And how does it actually work at a school? What actually happens?
Speaker A: So a school gets access to our program. So think a website that they get access to.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: Uh, nice and simple. And then they go in and they click on whichever lesson they're up to in the program based on the age of the children. And then they teach the lesson to the children. So they project it onto the whiteboard at the front of the classroom.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And they teach, um, all the contents pre made. There's quizzes, games, animations, songs, fun characters.
Speaker B: And what type of ages does it.
Speaker A: We start at age three.
Speaker B: Oh, cool.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: What do you teach the three year olds?
Speaker A: We're teaching three year olds about their brains.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Where they live in their heads.
Speaker B: Oh yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, we're teaching three year olds that their brains control everything that they do. Their bodies and how they feel. We're teaching 3 year olds what to do if their brain feels busy.
Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Speaker A: And then we're teaching them breathing strategies. We're teaching three year olds about their character strengths. So to feel good about being kind or funny or determined.
Speaker B: Nice.
Speaker A: So we're shifting the dialogue in schools and in nurseries as well. We work in early year settings and schools to being around, um, definition of self. Being about competence. Sorry. Being about character, not competence. So our entire education system is about how good you are at something.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's definitely true.
Speaker A: Um, but that doesn't build self esteem.
Speaker B: So there's no, in fact the opposite.
Speaker A: Exactly. So the research on self esteem goes, if you feel good about who you are at your core. So for your humor, your kindness, your bravery, whatever it might be, that's when you feel good about yourself as a human. M. That's what we're teaching in schools.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean some one of My friends described us as all like a kind of. What did she say? She said something like a bunch of nervous wrecking overachievers, you know, kind of thing, which is like.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: When we were at school it was all about marks and grades and things.
Speaker A: To a large extent it still is. My son's, um, doing A levels next year, so his first year. Just finished his first year. One of his friends was over last week, just got a results and it's still all about, what grades did he get? Did he get into uni? I'm gonna have to go through clearing. It's like, where's the, where's the bit about. But you're an amazing human and you worked really hard and it's just not, it's not built into our education system.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: So it doesn't get prioritized unless you put it into the system. And that's what I'm trying to do.
Speaker B: Do you think it's built into any education system? Just curious, are there anything.
Speaker A: The scandi countries are much better at this stuff.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Partly because they don't start education until that much later.
Speaker B: Yeah. There's like the seven. The seven.
Speaker A: The seven, yeah. Compared to four here. And obviously most kids go into some kind of formal setting before that. Um, but no, I think it's just, it's what gets measured, gets done. And the government are measuring schools based on attendance and scores in maths and English and therefore that's what teachers feel pressured to focus on.
Speaker B: So what was the reaction from teachers? Because actually, let's, uh, dial it back a second. So you had this idea. You had this idea.
Speaker A: Yeah. And everyone thought I was mad.
Speaker B: Well, yeah, obviously everyone thought, you know, that's half the course. Yeah. And then you, you were like, oh, okay. Well, I've been teaching some grown up 4 year olds some stuff anyway, so it might work with like overpaid grown up 4 year olds in suits and it might actually work with real four year olds.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: But how did you start to put the building blocks together?
Speaker A: So I found two head teachers where I had a bit of an in. Um, one was at a private school in Manchester where I was on a bursary and one was a really tough school in inner city Manchester where my mum knew the head.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And I went to meet both of the heads and I said, look, if I build this thing, will you test it for me? And if it's any good, you can have it for free forever. They were like, yeah, sounds great. And then I started taking all the science that I Knew from programs I'd done at Harvard and insead and all these places I'd worked in my corporate life. And I was starting to go, how do I boil this down into a curriculum for kids? And I just sat on my kitchen table and started writing. And then I taught myself how to write. Elearning first version of the program is really bad.
Speaker B: Nice.
Speaker A: Sometimes I look back and shudder. But uh, somebody, I can't remember who is famous person. I think it's Zuckerberg or someone said if you're not embarrassed of the first version of your product, you waited too long to launch it.
Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a complete believer in that. Like when we, you know, this is, this is not about me, but I'll just riff for a second. But like, but one of my big things I say is like, there are so many great products out there in medtech that just never leave the lab.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: You don't leave the lab.
Speaker A: They're not perfect.
Speaker B: Well, yeah, they're not perfect. And the whole scientific ethos is about perfection.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: There's always another experiment you can run and there's always another thing you can tweak. But at some point you've got to get the dish on the pass. Mhm. And you have to let the customer decide.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's the best experiment.
Speaker B: You have to let the market decide. The customer.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And listen, anyway, carry on. But I love the fact there that you basically because for me that was. That what you did there was straight out of like Customer Discovery 101.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Which is like, look, I uh, I think you have an issue. Do you have an issue? What kind of issue do you have? Like, you know, and then I'll come to you with a solution and would you test it for me so I can learn and then I can iterate Is like absolutely spot on.
Speaker A: And I've never stopped doing that.
Speaker B: Sure.
Speaker A: So I think that's why we've built something that schools love so much. Because it's been built with them.
Speaker B: Yeah. Co designed.
Speaker A: Yeah. Code design. And actually I started with the problems. I said, you know what, what you do now we don't really do it. Why not? Don't have time. Don't feel confident. Too much else going on in school. Dealing with behavior problems all the time. But you realize that if you get this stuff right, the behavior problems start to decrease and then starting to just build that.
Speaker B: And have you seen data on that?
Speaker A: Oh my God. The data we have is insane really in terms of what our program does on that.
Speaker B: So really? Wow.
Speaker A: Absolutely. You've just done a, um, independent study in Portsmouth Local, uh, authority.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: They saw difficult area. Difficult area. Yeah. So they, they had my happy mind in, um, in some schools and not in others. And they compared the data on attendance and suspensions over a two year period.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Attendance in non my happy mind schools over this two year period. Uh, sorry, severe persistent absence over the two year period increased by 120.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: In non my happy mind schools.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: In my happy mind schools, severe persistent absence only increased by 20%.
Speaker B: That's amazing.
Speaker A: So, and we see the same thing with suspensions massively reducing, um, in schools that have the program.
Speaker B: And roughly like the other, other factors are roughly equalized.
Speaker A: Other factors are equalized. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as much as you ever can with any kind of prevention. Prevention stuff. And then the other big start that we see time and time again is around, um, attainment.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Massively improves to the tune of like eight times the rate of schools that don't have the program.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: You know, happy kids learn. Right. If you're, if you're happy, you've got better self esteem, you're going to work harder and you're going to do better.
Speaker B: So the data that you're seeing on the ground around actual. So I think that's one of the things again, like I said, I'm not, it's not my sector.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: But I can, I can hypothesize that some of the critics of this type of thing are like, oh yeah, that's really soft. And sure, it's like net positive, but like, show me the data.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what we've tried to do is look at um, education data and health data because we sit on this weird boundary, uh, because we're an education product that delivers health care outcomes.
Speaker B: Mental health outcomes.
Speaker A: Mental health outcomes. So sometimes when we're looking at commissioning arrangements, local authorities are going, well, isn't this a health thing? And health are going well, isn't this an education thing? And I'm going, why don't you split the cost?
Speaker B: I got a solution for you.
Speaker A: Yeah, I can help you with that. Um, and we do, we get commissioned by both. Um, but yeah, we see really strong attainment and attendance correlation, as I've said. But we also see really significant reductions in referrals into services like cams, children, adult mental health services, um, reduced referrals into, even to speech and language therapy services like that. Because actually if you give, you give teachers and parents and kids the tools to get stuff early and to catch stuff early, to nip it in the bud, for want of a better phrase. It just doesn't escalate. I mean, it's just Prevention 101.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Um, but you're right, there is always that kind of. Yeah, but how do you. How do you prove it? And all we can do is say, well, let's look at these control data points that we're not collecting. The NHS is collecting, the local authority is collecting, and let's isolate as many of the other factors as we can. And every time we do it, and we've done 50, 60, 70 of these studies, the outcome is the same.
Speaker B: That's amazing. And do you feel like the kind of health authorities look at the attendance and the other data points that you mentioned, or is that more like the. Like, as in who? Is there a holistic view of all of this stuff? Because it's all interconnected, but I could also see some people being like, well, that's not a health thing. And that's.
Speaker A: So, uh, I have two decks. So. And to be fair, some. Some of the health commissioners really get that if you can see, uh, an impact on attendance, then that's going to also have a health outcome. But, yeah, different audiences have different priorities. And sadly, again, the system, the health system, the local authority system isn't necessarily set up to think about that holistic picture, because they've all got their own metrics and their own targets.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I mean, I could tell you some horror stories about some of the conversations I've had with commissioners who won't commission it.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Because it might negatively affect the number of kids that they can get through therapy, so.
Speaker B: Oh, because they get paid per capita.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Oh, my goodness, what a perverse incentive.
Speaker A: I know.
Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Speaker A: Yeah. So you. So we. So as a. As a commissioner, I've got to get, you know, I've got a target of getting a thousand young people through therapy, but if I put my happy mind in, a thousand people might not need therapy. Therefore, if I commission you, I might not hit my target.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: Did you just say that out loud?
Speaker B: Yeah. How did you deal with that? When. When they said.
Speaker A: I actually said, did you just say that out loud?
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: And then I said. And then I said, uh, Well, I guess the other way to think about it is that that would be fewer children and young people that need support.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Might be a good thing.
Speaker B: Good. Yeah.
Speaker A: They were just a little bit sheepish and embarrassed at that point.
Speaker B: But also, if we're faced with a situation where waiting lists are really long, then you might have no issue because there might be still lots of people to.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: That's the. That's the law of unintended consequences. And.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: The wrong incentives.
Speaker A: Yeah, I would say absolutely right.
Speaker B: Um, so what. You know, how. At what point did you. Because you got the first product ready, gave it to the.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Private school in Manchester and the other school in Manchester.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And they got it for free.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And then how did you transition, which I think is a really difficult transition with this stuff, which is like, generally speaking, if you've listened to the customer and you've built against initial customer requirements.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And the customer likes you.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: They're probably gonna be positive about it.
Speaker A: Uh, yes.
Speaker B: In some way, shape or form.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, and. But how do you then take that from there into something that you actually sell to someone. Somebody.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Who may not. Like, you may not know you.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, what was that transition like?
Speaker A: Really scary, because you're right. I mean, I'd given it to them for free.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I had a loose connection to both of them. One was my old school and the other was my mum's mate, you know, so there was always the risk that they were just telling me what I wanted to hear. So I figured out I was gonna have to go and knock on school doors and get myself a meeting and see if someone would pay for it.
Speaker B: And what did they say when you started to knock on random doors?
Speaker A: It's a massive gap. We.
Speaker B: They actually straight out. Said that.
Speaker A: Straight out the gate.
Speaker B: Oh, amazing.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. But. But it's interesting looking back, because my first few schools that were actual real customers rather than pretend customers. Um, I would. I would have, like, actually paid them to use it because I was like, you're still in that fearful thing of, what if this is. What if this is all, you know, a load of rubbish? But. But no, they. They were great. And they. They still use it today to this day. My first customers. We. We lose very few customers.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, and part of the beauty of the product is that because the teachers deliver the content, they get that instant feedback from the kids. They see it working. So they're not removed from the impact it's having. They are the impact it's having.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And that just creates a very different connection point for them as well. They almost become the hero.
Speaker B: Well, it's also kind of, again, not my area, but it feels like it's helping them solve a problem that up till now they've struggled to solve 100% as a teacher because they Might be a science teacher or maths teacher, but they're still seeing these sort of systemic behavioral issues.
Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B: And they don't know what to do other than oh, ah, toughen up or oh, uh, you know. Yeah, I'll listen to you. You know, they're just freewheeling it really.
Speaker A: Absolutely. And I, you know, we started in primary schools because I'm really passionate about that early stage prevention space. And the data says that something like 80% of mental health issues that will manifest in teenage years can be originated back to something that happened in the primary school years.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: But most of the investment in children and adults, mental health services in teenagers and adults. If I go. But hang on, if the data is telling us that it's starting earlier.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: That's when we need to be giving them the skills.
Speaker B: That's like the prevention versus the prevention versus Exactly.
Speaker A: Versus, um, treatment. Um, but most primary school teachers, I think go into teaching because they really genuinely love kids.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And they want to help kids thrive.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And so actually we're giving them something that enables them to do the thing that they probably went into teaching to do.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, so in that sense it works really well.
Speaker B: Yeah. And so at what point did you feel like, um, I've got a business here. Do you remember that moment? Or was it kind of just incrementally? It just sort of built and built and built.
Speaker A: I don't know if there was a moment. I remember getting to 150 schools and it was still me and my kitchen table.
Speaker B: Oh, that's cool.
Speaker A: And a customer called me and they said, oh, Laura, it's a bit of a problem. We've gone to log in and we're locked out. And it's a subscription based business, it's an annual fee. And I was like, oh, yeah, there must have been a technical glitch.
Speaker B: I'll talk to my tech team.
Speaker A: Yeah, I'll talk to my tech team. What's going on? And um, and they just, they, their subscription had lapsed and I hadn't sent them the invoice and so. And that's when I was like, oh, hang on a minute, like the wheels are going to start coming off if I'm not onto this. Um, and then my husband came into the business, which was great because we've got very different skill sets. And he kind of took on all of the operational side of things and, and yeah, then like the rest is history with team of 40 odd now, so.
Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's great. And um, where does it go from here, do you think?
Speaker A: I just want to keep growing it. I mean, we're in about 9% of UK primary schools.
Speaker B: Oh, really? Okay.
Speaker A: Long way to go.
Speaker B: Oh, you got loads of growth.
Speaker A: Loads of growth. And starting to. Yeah, we've started a secondary school program, so starting to get into older kids. Going international as well. We've just got our first school in the us, which is cool.
Speaker B: What's your take on the us?
Speaker A: I mean, how long have you got? It's a whole other episode. Yeah, I mean they've got real issues in the us, um, but there's a different willingness, I think, or lack of willingness from some senior leaders there to address it. So it's going to be a different ball game. Actually. This, this one school's come about very organically.
Speaker B: Ah.
Speaker A: So we've not kind of made a play for the us. Um, but we're doing a lot in international schools in Asia, uh, in the uae. It's a massive issue out there now.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: War, lots of anxiety.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Stuff coming up for kids. So, uh, yeah, we keep growing in the uk. The UK is the focus, but yeah. And take it internationally as well.
Speaker B: And what was the sort of, if there was any. What was the kind of challenge or pushback on this? I mean, was there anyone saying like, no, this isn't a good idea or like, was it all just sort of, oh, my God, we've been waiting for this?
Speaker A: I think not many people would argue that it makes sense to be teaching young kids strategies to help them to be happy. So, you know, the kind of, the, the narrative around this business is very relatable, I think, for most people. Most people have got. Either had their own children or seen a friend struggle or have a friend whose kids struggle. So I don't think there was ever any pushback on the concept. I think the hardest thing in the early days and to an extent still today is, is getting people to fund it. So we have two kind of, um, different go to market strategies. Either schools pay for it themselves.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: Or the NHS or local authority pay for it. But as you well know, it's not. There's no such thing as one NHS contract. So, you know, we've got 50 odd of those. Um, and sometimes there's still a bit of. Well, you know, we've got all this, we've got wait lists. We need to clear the wait list. How do we, how do we fund this as well? So funding can still be a challenge, although that's getting easier all the time. I mean, when I Started prevention in mental health with kids wasn't really a thing.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But now it's, it's up the priority list.
Speaker B: Well, there's no, you can't, it's, it's just unavoidable now. You can't. There's no way to clear the cams waiting list.
Speaker A: You've got to do something.
Speaker B: You have to look further upstream or downstream, whichever way you want to put it.
Speaker A: I think that's the same for most health tech, most therapeutic areas. Prevention exists in so many forms in so many therapeutic areas, like with your organization. But we always, as a society react to crisis quicker than we react to preventing that crisis.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's harder. I mean, I don't know, it sounds like you've found the same thing, but I've definitely found the argument around why we should take cost out of the future by spending today is getting easier and easier with the passing day.
Speaker A: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think the system is just so broken and it feels like a perfect storm right now in children's mental health because obviously the NHS is really challenged. Um, and at the same time we've never seen more children and young people struggling with their mental health. And those two things together, I think have made people go, actually, come on, we got to do something differently.
Speaker B: How do you think this is a slightly off topic and I know this isn't your responsibility at all, so I'm not making out like it is, but what, what do you think could be done around the NEETs, the million NEETs, which, which is terrifying.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like, that breaks my heart. Like that number. I know, you know that, that a million 18 to 25 year olds, where they should be just at the beginning of like cracking on, you know, and, and sort of the, the hopelessness of that situation is, is rough. But what, what do you, if 40 of them have, have diagnosable mental health issues, what do you, you know, what do we do?
Speaker A: We've got to find different pathways for those young people into some kind of formal education or training. Clearly, if there's that many who have gone, there's nothing for me, there's no job for me or there's no educational path that I want to pursue, then we've got, we've got a problem with the, with, with the setup, which I think, to be fair, Andy Burnham M is starting to talk about wanting to look at different pathways, hopefully. But my nervousness is that we're just going to focus on initiatives for that cohort and obviously that's really important, but we've also got to think about initiatives further back because it's just another wave of those, those young people coming through if we don't, if we don't do that. And, and the data on it is something like 40% have got special educational needs.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Um.
Speaker B: Wow. Really?
Speaker A: Yeah. Of those that are NEETs. So then you go, well, hang on. What, what are we getting wrong further back in their patient that we're not equipping them to feel able to, you know, put to, to progress in some way. So I think we've got to look at the, that million for sure, but we've also got to look further back and I think that's what the Milburn review is, is suggesting.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Um, but it's whether the funding follows, as is always the case with these things. We're pretty good in this country at articulating the issue. I don't know that we're always as good at.
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I look this, I'm not, this is not my area, so I don't want to sort of start opining, but I feel like we, we're, we are good at doing inquiries.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And we, we love a report.
Speaker A: Love a paper.
Speaker B: We love a paper. White or otherwise. Or other colors. All colors are available. Um, sometimes I feel like we don't back ourselves to, to really commit to a 10 year or 15 year generational change now.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And push that through in a. I know we're not bipartisan, but what's the phrase, like cross bench type of way to say, look like a million needs has got nothing to do with your position on immigration or it's got nothing to do with any of.
Speaker A: Yeah, let's fix it.
Speaker B: Let's fix it. But this is a 10 to 15 year plan to fix it.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Because you can't just invent jobs and you can't just, you know, you can't invent, uh, uh, you can't invent a cultural change around, um, apprenticeships. No, you, you, you know, you just can't do that. There are other countries that have done that really well, like Germany, for example, but that started very soon after the, the rebuilding of the, the entire country in the 50s and 60s. And then it got carried forward though, so they've been doing it for 40 years. You can't just look at them and say, oh, we should do the German model. And like, we'll get loads of people. It's a complete rebuild. Because at 16 you have to create really, really, really solid pathways that have to be connected into industry and so really Difficult.
Speaker A: It's really difficult.
Speaker B: Really. It's gonna take a long time and a lot of really smart people to think really, really hard about it. And I feel like sometimes we don't give those people enough air cover.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: To go off and fix it without worrying about whether or not they need to make an announcement in the press about some new program that's gonna magically fix it.
Speaker A: Exactly.
Speaker B: That's my take on it.
Speaker A: Agree. And the other thing, I don't think we do very well, whilst we're talking about don't do very well, scale things that we know do work.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: So you and I are in a community of innovators.
Speaker B: We are shout out to the nia.
Speaker A: To the nia, um, who have been through pretty rigorous assessment around, you know, clinical due diligence, financial due diligence, all the due diligence and have had the rubber stamp of this is something that the NHS promote and um, think should be scaled. And yet still it can be really hard to do that. So I think the other thing as, ah, a society, society that we're not always great at is going there's a problem. There are some solutions out there that we know work. Rather than putting loads more money into research, which we are also very good at in this country.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: Let's put some money into scaling things that have already been proven to work. Um, and that, that's a frustration of mine as a, as a founder is I've not had a penny of grant money.
Speaker B: Um, yeah, because you're in that awkward area.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I think you're in, you're, you're in a, you're, you, you, you've been. That's, that's highlights the awkwardness around grant funding, which is because you're real world.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You're live, you're doing stuff.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You need, you get grant money to do things.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: But what grant money in this country is often geared around is like researching new things.
Speaker A: Yeah. Even in areas where we already have the things that work.
Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean there's also. I had this terrible thing, We're a positive, We're a Positive podcast. We'll get back to it in a second. But one of the things that blew my mind, um, we got called by one of these, um, grant writing businesses. I'm sure I don't know if you get contacted all the time. I won't, I won't name them because that's not what we do. But they called us and they said that 99 of all winning Innovate grants go through their AI platform now. So.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker B: 99 of all Innovate UK grants that get one are, ah, written by this company's AI tool. And you're like, well, what is the point?
Speaker A: What's the point?
Speaker B: What's the point?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, you know, so I think that there's definitely like a distribution of those things and like, and I'm not, I don't understand what the fear is about backing real world things with grants. No, I don't, I don't get it. I just don't understand like, why if you, if there's a bit like, um. I think about it a bit more like an investment question.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like if you were investor, you know, one.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Private equity, VC doesn't matter.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You're basically saying, no, no, no, we'd prefer to back stuff that's much higher risk. Right. Than stuff that's much lower risk because we think that's better for what we're trying to achieve. It just feels a bit, I don't know if anyone's done the real like thought thinking of that or whether they just have a bucket of money for like high risk research.
Speaker A: It feels like the government playing VC
Speaker B: to me a little bit. Um, but they keep it at arm's length. Right. Because it's not even like the government has a lot of influence Innovate, do I know.
Speaker A: I mean, I'm up for the research bet, but I think there should be equal parts opportunity to scale the things that work, particularly when they're in those high priority areas and they've been proven already.
Speaker B: But I think that's what NHS England was kind of partly supposed to do.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I think to say, like, take a kind of overall view of things and say, well, hold up a minute, look, regions can do what they want. Regions are always going to do what they want.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: There's. It's very hard for us to say regions shouldn't do what they want. That genie's out, uh, the bottle a little bit. We can try and bring people around and we can try and do certain things, but broadly speaking, regions are going to do what they're going to do. However, we're also able to take a national view, which is to say we think there are these big priorities and we're going to back them.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And I'm not sure necessarily that happened in the way that they probably thought that was going to happen.
Speaker A: I mean, I think it's interesting, isn't like the core 20 plus 5 stuff
Speaker B: was really clearly articulated, massively clearly articulated,
Speaker A: but the solutions that are already proven to deliver against those priorities. Less so. I think there's like a fear around endorsing things. But anyway.
Speaker B: No, but I think this is a good, it's a good, it's a good thing to talk about because, you know, ultimately I agree with, um, we had a guy called Matt Whitty on, who used to be the Director of Innovation at NHS England. A couple of shows ago, we had this exact same conversation, which is, what are people really scared about here by supporting a company that does a thing, a British company? Well, it doesn't like any company in a sense, because, you know, they're like, oh, uh, we don't like the privatization of the nhs. Like, okay, what do you really mean by that? Because the NHS uses huge amounts of private companies to do all kinds of different things. Like NHS doesn't make its own surgical gloves.
Speaker A: No, exactly.
Speaker B: And NHS doesn't make his own toilet rolls. Yeah, you know, so what are you, what are we really saying here about the concern? I feel like there's just a bit more of an honest conversation that needs to happen in that space that hasn't really happened yet. Yeah, look, that then leads back around to why things can't be backed. Yeah, necessarily. But when they are backed, rightly or wrongly, like Palantir.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: Or Hell Breaks Loose.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, I don't know if you've got a view on that one.
Speaker A: Yeah, I might stay away from this.
Speaker B: Yeah, fair enough. A lot of people, A lot of people want to. So what, um, kind of drives you on a day to day basis around this? To keep going, to keep pushing, to keep pushing through all the challenges within the NHS and things like that.
Speaker A: I just feel that, um, I don't want any other parent to have a go through what I went through and feel unsupported and feel like there isn't an answer and there isn't an out. Because there is for so many kids. It's, you know, there are things you can do to help their lives be a lot better. Um, and I feel like you get a bit addicted to breaking, breaking some of the stereotypes and breaking some of the boundaries and people saying you won't be able to do that. And I'm like, okay, let's see.
Speaker B: Nice.
Speaker A: I've always been a bit of a rebel, I think. Yeah, I think you've got to be a bit of a rebel to be in this game.
Speaker B: Oh, well, I mean, look, I, I believe that, that people who become entrepreneurs have a particular.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, Character. Character set, you know, Resilience. Is one key trait and there's kind of like an fu. I'm going to prove you wrong.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Type of, type of thing, you know.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: If you tell me I can't do something, then I'm pretty much gonna drive myself into the ground to prove you wrong.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So, yeah, that, that all makes a lot of sense. If you could wave a magic wand, what would you actually change about the way the NHS does things in your area?
Speaker A: I would change two things. I would change the share of funding so that there was ring fence funding
Speaker B: on prevention in mental health.
Speaker A: In mental health. Because you're still scrapping around the edges to get the funding for prevention in mental health.
Speaker B: Uh, because it's in the same bucket.
Speaker A: It's in the same bucket as reacting. Um, I would do that and then I would measure different things. So right now, as I said before, the system is rewarded or penalised based on how many children get seen. So based on access targets. So how many children are ill and how many ill children do we see? From a mental health perspective, I would start measuring how many children did we prevent or how many preventative interventions is this system running so that we were putting more focus on prevention in what gets measured.
Speaker B: What gets measured gets done.
Speaker A: What, um, gets measured gets done.
Speaker B: And how, when you talk about those two things, what's been the reaction? So I'm assuming that's not the first time you've communicated those.
Speaker A: No. And you know what's crazy about it is everybody agrees with that. I talk to commissioners and I say to them, so if we were measuring different things, do you have a problem like, no, absolutely not. You know, I think there's so much fear in the nhs, particularly over the last few years where there's been so much change, so many reorgs, you know, for the people that are still there. I do think there's quite a lot of fear in the system. Uh, and that cultural fear doesn't drive risk taking behavior. It drives kind of, oh, I'm going to keep my head down, I'm going to stick to my, the rules. So a lot of our commissioners, I feel like, are the rebels as well, or the ones that are kind of going, listen, this isn't necessarily going to help me with my targets, but it's the right thing to do.
Speaker B: Well, it will help with other targets.
Speaker A: It'll help with other targets and it's helping them to see that. Um, but yeah, I think, I think it's, um, I think the NHS is a real kind of watershed moment in terms of its culture. Um, because I think people are burnt out. I think people are not in a great place and I think trying to give them some sense of hope and empower them to be agents of change is really important. And. And our work helps them to do that because it's so positive.
Speaker B: I agree. Right, we're going to go for our final commercial break and then we're back again with the last bit of today's show with Laura Earnshaw from My Happy Mind. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the final part of today's show with my guest today, Laura Earnshaw, the CEO of My Happy Mind. So let's talk about culture.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So this thing comes up a lot with, you know, in our NHS circles, entrepreneur circles, and I. I take a more kind of. I'm always a glass half full guy.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, I'm always. I want to kind of always be the good news bear and because. Mostly because I don't like feeling, like, negative and moaning the whole time myself. Like, I don't. I just. I don't. I don't like that. But sometimes it's quite difficult to kind of maintain that. I feel like you're kind of similar. So how do you sort of maintain elements of positivity when. I mean, even if you look at some of the WhatsApp groups that we're on, some stuff. Stuff can get pretty negative on m there, you know?
Speaker A: Yeah. I'm a glass half full person as well. I think you have to be, otherwise I think you just become miserable.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, and I feel very grateful that I get to do this work. I feel very grateful that I get to have the impact that I have in the system. Um, and I just. I just focus on that stuff. My, my. I grew up as a. So my dad's a vicar.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: So I grew up in a very positive, giving, grateful, grateful world and family. And I choose. I choose gratitude every day. And both of my kids, you know, they've had their own journeys with health stuff. Um, and I just choose. I choose to be grateful. I think life's too short to be anything else.
Speaker B: Um, and you feel like that more of the kind of innovators in the uk, at least, should maybe be a little bit more positive. I mean, it's hard to say, right, because everyone's having a tough time of it.
Speaker A: Everyone's having a tough time of it. But I think negativity is never going to help you have a better time of it. You got to find the small wins along the way. And I Think. You know, interestingly, in the science around gratitude, which is another one of the things we teach in our program.
Speaker B: Okay, great.
Speaker A: Um, what we know about gratitude, when we give it or we receive it, is that we get these little happy hormone bursts in the brain. Right. We get these dopamine serotonin releases. And that doesn't just make you feel good in the moment, but it also has been proven in the science to help you become more resilient against adversity down the line. So actually being grateful, thinking about gratitude, is more than just a nice Instagram quote. It's actually proven in the science to really help us. And that's why I think it's such a powerful force. And yeah, I mean, I get it, it is hard out there, but I don't think if an organization is having a hard time, the answer is to blame the customer. I think the answer is to have a different conversation with your customer and get to the root of it.
Speaker B: You're ringing my bell. It's one of the things I love to see say, which I couldn't believe. So I. My background wasn't in health either. And when one of the first things that struck me when I started to look at the space was I was like, oh, everyone's complaining about their customer publicly. That's a, uh, thing is that we do that. Like, everyone's just like, slag, slagging off the NHS on, on LinkedIn about how bad they are.
Speaker A: And even people who are consultants to the nhs.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Like the nhs.
Speaker B: Yeah. And you're like, they're your customer. What is this what we do?
Speaker A: Yeah. And they are. And the people in it are not the nhs. They are part of a system that has got a culture for many, many reasons. And actually what you need to be doing is understanding that and supporting customers to get to their outcome. So, yeah, Yeah. I take a different approach.
Speaker B: I just could never and would never ever complain publicly.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: About my customer.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: And I just still shocks me about how many people still do.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And about, like, they complain about some real structural things that's not really even in anyone's pay grade.
Speaker A: Exactly. No one set out to be a difficult organization. It's a complex beast.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And the trick is figuring out how you work with it.
Speaker B: My favorite one is when you see innovators taking on the NHS for their quote, unquote stupidity about daring to have a clinical pathway that includes things. So these innovators aren't clinicians, but they run a business that would change a clinical pathway.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And they're upset about the way the clinical pathway is right now.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So they, like, slag off the NHS for being stupid enough to have that clinical pathway. And I'm like, guys, come on. I mean, how do you think that's going to work?
Speaker A: Yeah. You're in the wrong game if you can't figure out a way to make your customer happy, even in a complex system like the nhs.
Speaker B: But do you feel like, why. Why would. Is it something about health that means that people that start businesses in that are more inclined to. Or, uh, is it about. Because they believe that the NHS is somewhat sort of. It's. It's. It's sort of an amorphous, nebulous thing that they can complain about because it's not really the customer, you know?
Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting, isn't it? I wonder if there's, like a dynamic of if you grew up in health versus if you didn't.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker A: So a lot of the people that I know that are entrepreneurs in health are health care professionals, um, and have kind of come out of that to build some things. Maybe that gives them a different perspective. Maybe it makes them feel they have more of a right to, quote, unquote, slag off the nhs. I see it as a. I mean, I never thought you'd have said to me when I started, oh, the NHS will commission this. I'd never have believed you.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: I didn't go after the NHS commissioning us. They came to me and said, we're noticing a massive, uh, decrease in cams, referrals in the schools you're in, in our area. Can we do a pilot?
Speaker B: That's an awesome story.
Speaker A: Yeah, it was cool. I was having my daughter's school shoes fitted in Clark's when I got the call. I was like, sure, you can. That was not a path that I. So it's funny, when we first joined the NIA program and we were talking about, like, how many commissions have you got? And, you know, how fast is your car? And they're like, oh, how did you get your first commission? And everyone's like, oh, my God, it was so hard. It took me years. And I was just sat there going, um, yeah, I got a phone call when I was in Clark's, trying my daughter's school shoes on with her. Um, so my journey has been quite different and I. Yeah, I. I don't see merit in.
Speaker B: I wonder whether that's because you, from the beginning, were solving a real problem. Yeah, a really real problem.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, that exists and there was no debate about it existing. It wasn't sort of like having to try and persuade someone to that that was an issue.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I think is often, and I think you.
Speaker A: I think sometimes some of the solutions that I see in our space, mental health and otherwise, are, uh, amazing solutions. Like the technology is amazing, the idea is amazing, but they're almost too amazing in the customer base. And so our product had to actually be quite simple.
Speaker B: Sure.
Speaker A: For teachers, because teachers aren't massively techie always. They don't always have that skill set. So there's two bits for me. There's the product and then there's the readiness for your customer to accept it. And I think sometimes that's the bit that's in the middle. So I think sometimes when we hear innovators slagging off the nhs, it's not because their product isn't right, but it's that they've not necessarily done the work to figure out how they make that accepted. Accepted by the system.
Speaker B: Yeah. So I get into arguments all the time on LinkedIn when I put stuff out, but about this, about, like, don't blame the customer. And then, you know, people come back and be like, well, you know, timing, it's all about timing. And sometimes the timing is just wrong. And I'm like, well, you could say that, but actually. Or you could say, well, did the customer even have that problem to begin with?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, or was your solution a solution to the problem? But the solution was over engineered or under engineered or too expensive or just the wrong commercial model or, you know, it still comes back to whether or not you, you solve that customer's needs.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: As opposed to saying, oh, yeah, just, you know, bad timing.
Speaker A: That's why you've just got to have the customer at the center of everything you do.
Speaker B: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A: Um, and there's always going to be bad timing stuff and funding cuts and all of that and that happens. But yeah, I, I definitely choose not to. Not to go down that route.
Speaker B: Yeah. I think. How do you think we could try and sort of change the perspective on it? Because I do, I do feel like there's loads and loads of businesses in the UK that we're really hard and there's just people a little bit down in the mouth at the moment. I'd like to know. I'd love to know what we could do. If you have any thoughts, just try and change it up a little bit.
Speaker A: I don't know. I think we've got to look at these networks that we have, like the NIO program, like other programs that are out there and think about what are they, what are they giving to the innovators. So sometimes I feel like at those events, there's almost a sense of, you know, people should be coming to us and helping us to get our innovations out there. I feel like we need to flip that script.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, maybe it's about helping people to understand how they become more customer centric or how do they access the customer in a different way, how do they have different conversations? I think that's the best piece of advice I would ever give. Somebody trying to start something in any field is go and understand your customer, go and understand the problem and don't build anything until you've got that totally clear.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I wonder whether, for those that are really struggling, they need to not go back to basics, but go back to the start and revisit their product, their organization, their business based on what's happening now. Because there's a lot of innovation that was built a long time ago and maybe the problems moved on, maybe the customer moved on.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I remember, I always tell this story, like, we did three or 400 hours worth of customer research before we started building of all different types of customer and stripes and etc. And, um, you know, because we had this conception. So when we spoke to all of the. We spoke to, like, mums and dads and friends of mums and dads and all of these different people about how do you, like, get cholesterol tested and what do you do and how do you think about heart health and. And then, you know, they were like, oh, yeah, it's really annoying. I'll go, go to the gp. And, you know, it's really frustrating and I'd love to do it at home. And we were like, oh, great, that'd be cool. Because, like, then if the GP buys our test.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Their patients will be happier.
Speaker A: Yeah, Right.
Speaker B: We were like, oh, that sounds great. And that. That theory lasted about 12 seconds in the first GP conversation when we found out the GPS get pathology lab testing for free from the NHS icb.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So they're like, well, why would I.
Speaker A: Why would.
Speaker B: Why would we do that? And you're like, oh, yeah, of course. But. And then we found that out and then we worked around it and then, you know, latterly we've worked out a way to work with gps, but they weren't our initial customer group. And, you know, the stuff that you do. Yeah, but there are so Many businesses that I come across when I do the Last Friday Club and stuff that are still trying to sell point of care diagnostics to gps.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I'm like, they get you're competing against free.
Speaker A: You've got.
Speaker B: And they're like, yeah, yeah, but my thing is, like, better, and it does different things to the lab test and they get the result immediately. And I'm like, they don't care because your test is coming off their bottom line, whereas they get it for free. I mean, it's impossible to compete against free.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, where do you go from there?
Speaker B: Yeah. What do you do?
Speaker A: You know, what's the response you get out of interest when you say that?
Speaker B: Mixed. Yeah, I'd say it's very mixed. I'd say some people are very. The reason a lot of the time why people, um, come on to those Last Friday calls.
Speaker A: Yeah. Is great that you do that, by the way.
Speaker B: I just want to help.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, I want to raise the tide of everyone. And I think, you know, companies like yours, where you had a good exit or a partial exit to private equity.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like, uh, ultimately, we're all in this.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: For a journey. Right. And the more successful everyone in is this space. It helps everyone in it.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Right. So, like, this is another thing that in mind is when people slag off the NHS on LinkedIn, when that's your customer. So when in. What do you think VC investors think when you're slagging off your own customer.
Speaker A: Yeah. Because the first thing they're going to do is Google you.
Speaker B: Yeah. What do you. And you're like, oh, it's a disaster. The NHS is this and it's a design. Why would you do that? What do you think they're going to think about your business? So, um, people join because they want to help, I think mostly. So they've made that first step, which is. Which is good. They said, hey, I'd like to talk to you about this. And I'd say 50 are like, oh, I hadn't thought about it like that.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And then the other half are, ah, no, you're wrong. I'm like, all right, cool.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I mean, I. I have no dog in the fight.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You called me kind of thing. And yeah, I'm here. Like, I gave you my opinion and yeah, there you go.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, so. But. But that. The other half is a bit like a light bulb moment.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: When they're like, oh, so what would you do? Is the next. What would you do? I'm like, well, I don't know this what I could do.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So. But I, you know, I do it because I really believe a little bit like you, I really believe in trying to help and trying to elevate everybody.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Because we're all in this together in the wonderful wide world of health technology. And the more winners there are, the more it helps all of us.
Speaker A: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Speaker B: Cool. So we always end the show by asking our, uh, guests, what kind of self talk or mottos do you use or have used in difficult situations to get through those difficult situations that you want to pass on to help anyone that might be listening who may also be in a difficult situation.
Speaker A: So I have two things that I'd say to that, both of which my kids say are totally cringe, but I have a 17 and a 13.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So most of what I say is right.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: The first is, um, everything is figureoutable.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And I really believe that, like, nothing is that, like, we're not doing rocket science here. Well, we're not doing rocket science. Rocket scientists are, but we're not. So. So any problem that you're faced with, there will be a way through it. So everything is figureoutable is a big one. And the second one is every action you take either gives you the result that you wanted or the lesson that you needed.
Speaker B: Oh, that's a good one. That's a new one on me. That's a good one.
Speaker A: That's a good one.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Can't remember where I first heard it. It's definitely not mine, but I do really think about that all the time. And so when things don't go right, when I, you know, the commission doesn't come off or whatever happens, I go, okay, what's the lesson that I needed from this? What can I learn from this? What can I take from it to build? And I think you've just got to have that mindset when you're a founder, because it's not all going to be cupcakes and roses.
Speaker B: No, you're going to get punched in the face.
Speaker A: You're going to get punched in the face. Exactly. So, yeah.
Speaker B: Brilliant. Well, Laura Earnshaw, thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker A: Thanks for having me. It's been great.
Speaker B: Brilliant. And thanks to everyone listening. We'll be back again next week with another show.
Speaker A: Thanks so much.
Speaker B: Great. Thank you.
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