The Future of Work Depends on One Human Skill We Ignore (Ft. Jen Fisher)

Speaker A: Who are you?

Speaker B: Why do you have to start with such a hard question?

Speaker A: Because I can't let you off the hook. Everyone gets the same question.

Speaker B: I would say, um, I'm a daughter, a sister, a partner, a wife, um, a caregiver to my mother who has Alzheimer's disease. Um, also a caregiver, cancer survivor, and someone who deeply cares about where we're headed with humanity and the future of work.

Speaker A: I love that. I can feel that. I mean, that one comes straight from the heart. Can feel that. Where are we headed, Jen? Where are we headed?

Speaker B: If only we knew, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: I think there's a lot of predictions. I don't know what it. I don't. I don't know if any of it will come true or not, or. We're going to find out.

Speaker A: Sure. What's just, uh, for, you know, obviously everyone that you know or for. For those who don't know you, because you and I have met before and so forth, um, have, you know, consumed your book and whatnot. What's the quick version of how you got to this place that you're. You're at right now?

Speaker B: The quick version is someone who believed that my value and worth was tied to my professional title, to my output, to the metrics that we track in the workplace. And that was very miserable and extremely depleted until the point of burnout and having to rebuild my life and really think about the role that I wanted work to play in my life, you know, with work continuing, and it still is today, an important part of who I am and what I do. But it's not everything. Um, and sometimes I think that is a daily. It's still a daily battle for me to remember that, you know, that that's a. That's a piece of who I am, but it's not who I am.

Speaker A: It's funny, I got that. I. We were chatting before we hit record and I mentioned there's been quite a few events and, you know, speaking and so forth over the last few days. And a few people asked me something to the effect of like, do you still have to have mental fitness practices in place? And, like, do I still have to. If anything, I probably have more. And this is why I do this work.

Speaker B: We do this work because we need it than anyone else.

Speaker A: Totally. I actually do believe that, at least for me, it feels true. If I stop for a day, I mean, look out, the mind just starts to spiral.

Speaker B: So I had a psychologist researcher tell me once that, uh, that they call it me search. So instead of research, they Call it me Search. And so most of the time they get into this work and into this field or into whatever, you know, they're researching because it's something that they're struggling with themselves. And I think that that's absolutely true for me too.

Speaker A: Yeah. So before writing Hope and doing the work that you do today professionally, what, what were you doing and what was life like?

Speaker B: Yeah, So I spent 23 years of my career at Deloitte, the last 10 years of my career there. I was the firm's first chief well being officer. Some people will say that I was the first in the world. I don't know that to be true, can't validate it. But I will say I was one of the first.

Speaker A: And you were early, that's for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, you know, but before becoming the Chief wellbeing officer and people often ask me, you know, how did that come about? And it goes back to what we were just saying out of, out of necessity. Um, you know, before that I held, you know, several different roles within the organization. Um, and one of them being the chief of staff to our, one of our previous, previous CEOs. And while I advocate for anyone that wants to be a chief of staff, it's a great role, but it's a role that in many respects is all consuming. And um, someone else's goals and someone else's success becomes your goals and your success. And so for me, I was young in my career. I think I very much got lost in that, um, and not really defining what I wanted out of it or what Jen Fisher's version or vision for success look like. And any of these very large, high performing organizations, I don't think that that's uncommon. We just tend to kind of look outside of ourselves or look around the organizations or look around societally and point to what we believe markers of success are. And most of them are external markers of success. But we don't do the inner work to say, well, is that really my definition of success? And I was certainly never taught that, you know, having a thriving life and hobbies and friends and, you know, that was never on my vision board of, you know, of success. Right. It is now.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, and so, and so that's, you know, I kind of got lost and you know, ended up in a place of depletion and burnout. And you know, for me, I didn't seek out professional help, clinical help through the help of a therapist. And that's when I learned about hope and the power of hope. I actually had A therapist who had me read C.R. snyder's work. C.R. snider is kind of the godfather of hope and hope theory and do hope exercises. But I would say up until that point, I probably never even thought about hope. It was kind of like this whimsical, you know, why are we talking about hope? There's no metrics associated with that, although there are, but just a complete fundamental misunderstanding of what hope is and what hope was at that time. And so I think in redefining who I was, who I wanted to be, what success looked like, and how powerful those Hope practices were for me in recovering from that, um, sure. It became just part of how I live my life and who I am and certainly part of m. My leadership ethos. And for those that can see me on screen, I, I wear a hope bracelet on my, my wrist every single day because, you know, I'm sure we'll get into it. But hope is another one of those things that, that's hard, you know, huh. Hope doesn't guarantee success. Hope makes, you know, makes you recognize reality. What sucks for sure before you can move forward. And so there are days where I'm um, like, yeah, this Hope stuff feels really heavy. Why am I doing this? But it is, it is incredibly powerful once you start to understand it and embed those practices into your life.

Speaker A: I have a red bracelet which is to signify as well. It's just to remind me daily as well. And more than daily. I mean, I would say in the moment around, you know, just putting my mind first is why I wear that before we get. Because I want to go a little bit deeper into HOPE in your book and, and, and the practices and the um, and the perspectives around that. But before we go there, I do want to stay a little bit around the idea of, of a chief well being officer. And I actually got a few of these questions this morning from executives, health sciences space and like massive companies. And I, I got the feeling like they don't have a role like what you were doing and so forth. So some of the questions I, that came up in that, in that talk were around like how, like how do we set, you know, if we, if we want to set personally boundaries for, for ourselves and you know, know how we, you know, what's required, I guess, to show up as the best version of ourselves personally and professionally. But then we have leadership teams that maybe aren't on that same track or aren't prioritizing that like how do you get that going? Right? And I think if you have a A chief well being officer. I mean, that would be at least the first place to probably have a conversation. But if you don't like, I guess, what do you see out in the real world where like, how do we have more of these conversations so that, you know, we're not burning out? I mean, because the data is not good. I mean the data, it's, it's terrible. And it's still like, I know you mentioned there's, there's metrics around hope as well and there's so many around well being, but it seems like it doesn't matter. Matter or something. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's um, you know, it's really interesting that you bring that up because I think the conversation that I've been having a lot of with my colleagues in the field and you know, I'll just start by saying I do think that there needs to be a chief wellbeing officer in especially every large organization. I realize that for small and medium organizations, maybe that's not realistic, but there should be somebody who is looking after, um, you know, the culture that is being created and our, the ways in which we're working and the things that we, our behaviors as leaders and colleagues. Are we negatively impacting people's well being or are we positively impacting people's well being? And ultimately, I think that is the role of a chief well being officer. It's not necessarily about, you know, do we have the right programs and tools and resources. That's table stakes. Yeah, but it is, you know, what is our culture telling people, you know, either, you know, spoken or unspoken, what it takes to be successful here. And are those things, you know, are those behaviors and the result, results of those behaviors hurting people or helping people more often than not. Right. Like work is work. You know, there's going to be times at work when you're giving more to work, um, because you're under a deadline or you, you know, you're meeting a milestone or whatever it is. But I think the uh, awareness and the acknowledgement and the conversation, the psychological safety, the ability to say, hey, this is what this is and it's going to end. But if at any point during this time you're struggling, you need more time, you need to set boundaries. Those are the types of things that I believe, um, a chief wellbeing officer should be, have a seat at the table. And those are the types of questions that should be, be asked, um, somebody that's a true advocate for how work is impacting people.

Speaker A: The question, and that's different than HR Right. I mean, I know hr, obviously, there's. There's. I can see overlap, but there's so much. There are so many other responsibilities as a head of HR or whatever it is that you can't possibly take on.

Speaker B: All of you can't. Right. So, I mean, people will say to me, isn't that the job of the chro. I think most chros would. Would, you know, would tell you that they agree with all of the things that I'm saying, but, like, do not add another thing to my plate.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: Um, you know, so. So I think most, at least most chros that I talk to are like, if you can come in and fix this for me, like, please do. I think you made a really interesting point about the data. The data is not good. The data hasn't been good for a long time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I think, unfortunately, I think what, you know, for. For a long time, leaders were like, well, show me the data. I need to see the data. I need to see the data. And we didn't have, you know, 10 years ago, we didn't have the data. We had some data. We didn't have the amount of data that we have today, but showing the date. Uh, you know, I think what we're doing is we're mistaking data or substituting data for strategy. Right. And so we just kind of keep admiring the problem and admiring the fact that the data is bad, but we're not really doing anything to move the system or change the system. And so we keep falling back into, you know, the same old behaviors, which gets us the same data at this point. I mean, like, you know, there are a lot of people that will hate me for saying this, but we don't need another study. We really do not need another study.

Speaker A: I put data up this morning, Jen on the side, and I kind of made. Not, uh, made fun of it, but I'm like, obviously, if your mind is in a good place, there's going to be less stress, more productivity. Uh, and then now there's like, wicked data around profitability and sales and so forth. But, like, almost like, obviously, right. Like, do we really need to see this?

Speaker B: Everybody knows this, right? Like, we have been. You and I and so many others have been talking, and so we're. We're. We're red in the face. And so. But I. I still think. And, you know, and maybe that's because you and I talk about it all the time. Um, you know, because conversations that I have with leaders now, um, is really, you know, a deep Concern, Like I have yet to meet a leader that tells me I don't care about my, I mean maybe they're not going to tell me that because I'm, because I am who I am. But nobody has sat across from me at a table and say like, I don't care about the well being of my people. Like, I don't care if they're struggling or suffering. I mean on a very human level, I don't think anybody wants that, you know, but there are so many competing priorities totally, um, around kind of what falls on the desk of these C suite leaders. Which is another reason why you need a chief well being officer, because you need somebody whose sole job is to care about this. Yeah, but a lot of them also believe that they're doing a lot of all or a lot of the right things. They have invested in programs, they have enhanced their benefits, they have, they give their people resilience training and they give them the latest app and all of these things in their mind they've done what they can do, um, or what they should be doing. And so then the conversation is, that's great. Like that is table stakes. That's where you need to start. But a meditation app, as great as the meditation app is, is not going, was never meant to and is not going to fix, you know, work overload, work overwhelm. Like it's just not, you know, we can meditate, we could be the best meditator in the world and maybe we'll handle stress a little bit better, but it's not going to clear my plate of all the work that I have to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: You know, uh, so, so then it becomes a conversation of like, okay, well let's look at the things, the work related things that are actually causing people to have bad well being outcomes and how do we chip away at what those things are? A lot of them are related to work overload, too much work overwhelm and stress. A lot of them are related to, you know, mattering. And do I have good relationships with my peers, with my colleagues and in particular with my boss? Does somebody about me in the organization? Do I believe that to be true? You know, am I valued here? There's a lot right now on that as you know. So those are the, those are the kind of human conversations, especially in the age of AI, that we need to, you know, that, that we need to be having. And when it comes to hope in particular, I know there's a lot of commentary out out there of like what AI can and can't do. But I can guarantee you because I've tested it, AI can't hope.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And it's not even good at helping you hope.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's so true. Well, so let's talk a little bit about hope. And it's interesting because I wrote down, I mean, you know, this is your book, obviously hope is the strategy, which I've actually. And I'm sure you've gotten this before, but normally we hear the opposite of that. Right. Of like do everything to make sure that hope is not your strategy. Right. Or, or hope or hope isn't a strategy is the line I've heard most often. So how did you come to that language? And I guess where does hope fall into your world in terms of how it helped you kind of get out of the scenario that you found yourself in?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, love that question. And fully anticipated that that would be the top question that I get when I published a book called Hope is the Strategy. And it was intentional. For anybody that is listening that knows me, they know that I like to push back on societal and organizational norms that don't make sense. Um, so the reason that I say hope is the strategy, I didn't say hope is the only strategy. I said hope is the strategy. Because when you. So I think most of us have dismissed hope because we've heard hope is not a strategy or hope isn't a strategy. And so we just don't understand it. I certainly didn't understand it. So you know, I think that when I hear somebody say hope isn't a strategy strategy, to me I'm kind of like, well, that just represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what hope is. And so if you look at the research around hope and what CR Snider and others have said about what is required for real hope, um, it is a very, uh, um, thoughtful, self aware way of actually setting and pursuing goals. And so that's why it is a strategy. So real hope requires three things. It requires a goal which is. Has to be specific and attainable by you. So it can't just be some, um, pie in the sky like, hey, I won a lottery ticket and I'm going to sit back on the couch and win the lottery. I mean, maybe dumb luck would have that happen for a few people, but not for most of us. Uh, the second thing it requires is the identification of multiple. They talk about them as pathways, multiple ways in which you can accomplish that goal. And why it's more than one multiple pathways is because oftentimes when we pursue a goal, we run into roadblocks. We get stuck. And what happens? We give up. We throw our hands up. We get frustrated. If you've already identified another pathway in which to reach that goal, you're like, okay, cool, that didn't work. I learned something. Let me switch to this other pathway, um, and continue to pursue this goal. And then the third thing is agency. We hear a lot about agency, especially in the workplace, when it comes to engagement and culture, but the ability to actually affect change, like, to do something, something to move towards that goal. And in that regard, that's what makes hope and optimism different. Hope, uh, optimism is the belief that I can make change. Hope requires you to actually take action, like, identify that action and start to move on it. And so therefore, if you translate that into life, but in particular organizational life, it's very strategic.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's not wishful thinking.

Speaker B: It's not. And what I tell leaders is like, hey, you have this incredible transformation strategy. Whether it's organizational transformation, AI transfer, whatever, you're transforming. Because every organization seems to be transforming everything right now. Like, you've laid out this incredible transformation strategy. The one thing you haven't done is actually thought through how you're going to get people on board. How are you going to get people to see themselves in this transformation, to believe that what you're doing is going to make tomorrow better than today for them. And that's what hope is. You know, thinking that, like, what I do is going to make life better for me. And until you do that, you're going to struggle with your transformation. And it's playing out main stage right now with AI Trans. Like with AI, right? Like, everybody's uncertain. There's. There's tons of uncertainty. There's tons of, like, nobody is clear on what AI is really going to do versus not do. People in their organizations are being told you have to use AI or you're going to get fired. But they're not telling them what to use AI for or how. Yeah. Uh, you know, so it's like, it's like main stage right now, and I'm sitting here going, if you. You had a hope strategy, like, if you had sat down and thought, like, how am I going to get people on board with this? What are the goals going to be? What are the pathways? How am I going to give them agency to move towards this at an individual level, then I think we'd be seeing it play out very different. So that was a long way of saying why hope is the strategy.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I appreciate it. And the details make perfect sense. And I think the only thing I'd love to add is just uh, because this is where our work is so complimentary. It's that while you're, while you're taking that time to look at the HOPE strategy, also looking at like what does my mind need and what, what do the minds of the teams need to actually thrive in this, this new environment or whatever's coming, coming up, whatever transformations uh, are in the plan. Because right now, and again we've talked about the data right now people aren't doing well and they're working at, or their minds are working at like 60% at best from the data that, that I see through some of these blueprints that we have. I mean how can you possibly expect the team to see what others can't see and you know, come up with a strategy or path that is, you know, cutting edge and a uh, competitive advantage when it's, you're literally just trying to get to the end of the day. Right? It's, I saw a bunch of check ins again this morning and over the last few days just seeing what's on and these are like high performing leaders. These aren't, you know, the people that are, are, aren't you know, responsible for massive amounts of, of uh, decision and, and profits and all that. And it's so consistent. It's like you said, a bunch of AI uncertainty. It's like the, the questions I hear like how do we cut through the noise? Like how do I make better and slower decisions? And my completely full. Right. And it's, I don't know, I just look at this as no different than like any of the business strategies. If we had data coming back like that we would change the business strategy or make some adjustments.

Speaker B: I mean like, yeah, uh, like well, being all of the thriving, all of these components. If, if your financial, if your financials came back and you were operating at you know, 40% of what your capacity or potential is, I mean shareholder value would be in the toilet, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Yet it's okay for that same, you know, for the data to show around. Well being that you know, more than half of your workforce is, is struggling. And I mean I think that that's it and that's where I kind of get to the, the end of the things that we do at the uh, individual level are critically important and we need to continue to do them. We also need to start to address the systemic issues that are creating the environments in which we are, you know, the things that we do to thrive as human beings on an individual level are being systematically undone every time we log on to our laptop, walk into the office, walk, whatever environment that we're in. Right. And so, you know, and so it's no longer like. I mean, I think when I was experiencing burnout, I really. And I think so many people still do, I really processed it as well. This is a. This is a personal failing. Like, there's something wrong with me. There's something that I'm not doing to take care of myself, to thrive in this environment. And while some of that is absolutely true, when you have 60% of your workforce that is experiencing, you know, depletion, burnout, struggling with their mental health, that's no longer an individual problem. Like, all of those people can be doing the exact same thing, exact right thing, and still not be thriving.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and so we have to complete this. It's not that one is wrong and the other's right. It's just that we have so heavily said it's the problem of the individual. The organization bears no responsibility or the leader bears no responsibility for the culture or the environment that we're creating. What I tell these leaders is keep investing in these incredible programs and let's enhance the ROI by also chipping away at, uh, the organizational norms and behaviors that are no longer serving you.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, but if someone's listening to this today, I mean, hopefully, you know, if you're a leader or you're running a company or in the C suite and, you know, this is some kind of food for thought to have some different conversations and explore this topic, then, uh, that would light me up. But for someone that maybe doesn't have that level of authority to make change at that level. Any suggestions on, you know, hey, I was listening to Jen and, and Mark talk about this topic. Like, how, how does one. Because I, I keep hearing this out there as well. Like, how do I bring this forward without, you know, seeming like I'm complaining or I'm not grateful or what. Or you know what I mean? And, and just allow. Make sure people take it seriously and actually lead some change.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, I think it's a great question, and it is one that, that keeps coming up. And I, I think because a lot of people are struggling with it, um, I think first, you know, I go back to psychology. Right. Like, focusing on what you can control. Right. I think we often get caught in the. And this is your world, kind of the thinking and mind traps of like, well, I can't do anything about it, you know, that's that, you know, it's us versus them. Right. That's on them. Right. And the things at, uh, the systemic, organizational level, you might be absolutely right. Except for we tend, if you're anything like me, we tend to continue to obsess over the things that we can't change.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Because we can't change them. So it's kind of human right to do that. But then we get stuck there and that in itself will wear you down. So identifying, and this is, to me why hope is also so powerful is hope will tell you what's the next step that you can take, and then the next one after that, like, don't, you don't need to identify the whole plan, you don't need to identify the next 10 steps, but what's within your control and what's the next step that you can take? Um, you know, and you had brought up boundaries earlier. Is it, you know, just setting a boundary where you log off two times a week, you know, at 6:30, because that's when your family has dinner and you don't log back on, you know, and, and see what happens. Do it one night a week if you have to, or, you know, log off from 6:30 to 9:30, whatever. The small. What, whatever you think is the smallest thing that you can do to show yourself that the world's not going to come to an end.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Speaker B: Because we catastrophize. Like, if I don't respond, we tell ourselves, if I don't respond to my boss in five minutes flat, then they're going to think I'm less committed, they're going to fire me. They're going to. And in a time of extreme uncertainty, none of us want to be that person that is seen as less committed or complaining or. But, but I would also say we all work with other human beings. You know, you have a friend at work, you have two friends at work, you have two colleagues. You know, bring, bring it up as a. Like, hey, how do you, you know, like, what are you doing to take care of yourself? What are, what are, you know, like, what is. What's working for you? Can we create something where we can support one another? And what does that look like? You know, how can I hold you accountable? How can you hold me accountable? What can I back you up? Back you up on? What can you back me up on? So start really small. You know, when I talk about system change, what's interesting is when you think about the biggest transformations of our, your lifetime, of our lifetime. They, when we watch them on TV or in a Hollywood movie, it makes it seem like, you know, one day everything was this way, and then we all went to sleep. And then the next day. So true, everything changed. But that's not true of any big transformational, systematic system. Systems change, right? It was a whole bunch of people doing a whole bunch of little things up until the point that it was no longer little. And then it then affected and impacted change. And so I think we have to remember that even though sometimes we feel powerless, we are part within an organization or with any type of community, we are part of the system. And we either contribute to, you know, bad behaviors within that system, or we start to, in small ways, push back on those and start to change our own behavior, which then changes other people's behavior. So that's what I say to people that feel like they can't make large organizational change. Change what you can change. And that often starts with you.

Speaker A: Do you remember one of your, uh. And whether you can name a client or not, it doesn't matter. But do you remember any of your first, you maybe handful of clients, or maybe even the first one where they got what you wanted to do and what you wanted to bring in? And you're like, yes, finally someone's like, seeing the full picture here and like, I guess for you, like what. What helped them see it.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, you know, I think I'll actually reflect on the creation of the role as Chief wellbeing officer. So not even kind of one of my recent clients since I left Deloitte, but. But, you know, being inside of one of the world's largest professional services organization, which, let's be honest, isn't necessarily known for, you know, this is a. This is an easy, carefree place to work. Um, you know, so I, I thought. So the timeline goes. You know, I experienced burnout. I came. I had to take a leave of absence. I came back to work. I sat down with my boss. I was actually in the marketing organization at that time, working for the CEO. And then I came out of that role, um, and I was in the marketing organization struggling. And that's really when kind of the burnout. It had been happening all along, but kind of when it came to a head and I needed to take time off, and, um, when I came back to work, I sat down with my boss and I said, I'm going to resign from the organization because I want to focus. I want to create a career that's focused on helping others not get where I got. And it Was her vision actually more than mine? My vision was this needs to happen externally, outside of the four walls of Deloitte, because there wasn't a role like that at Deloitte. And I had no idea that I could build or create that role. And she said to me, you're not going anywhere. And I was like, you can't tell me I can't quit.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: What do you think I'm gonna do? And she said, if you need this, there's a lot of other people that need it too. Um, and so she kind of created, you know, talk about pathway. And she was, you know, I talk about hope dealers. People, you know, leaders are dealers in hope. Right. I mean, talk about the ultimate hope dealer. She was the one that cleared the path and created that pathway for me to at least put together a business case for, um, well, being at Deloitte and what a wellbeing leader or a chief well being officer would look like. But even then, I mean, I think I got very lucky because the CEO at the time and the head of hr, both of them understood inherently the connection between well being and high performance, because that was how they lived their life. They lived it very quietly, as many

Speaker A: did at the time.

Speaker B: Right. I haven't figured out for. Yeah, like, I have it figured out for myself, but I'm not going to tell you because if I tell you, then I'm going to be told that I can't do it anymore.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah. The secret meditators out there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I got a lot of. I was very lucky that I got a lot of support at the very senior level where I got a lot. And I wouldn't even say it was pushback. I think there were three buckets. There were the people that just absolutely did not get it and didn't want to get it. Then there are the people that absolutely got it and were like, yes, we've been waiting for this. Please bring it on. And then there's that bucket in the middle of really good, smart, talented people that are like, I don't know how to do this because this is not what we've been taught. And so it's, it sounds good, but what's gonna happen if I let Sally go to yoga at 2pm and I'm like, nothing's gonna happen because Sally's gonna be done with yoga at 3pm and nothing that you're doing is brain surgery. Like, you know, like. And so it's really just about like giving people permission, letting them know that they're supported, that somebody has their back. They're not gonna get in trouble for these things, you know. So for me it was those conversations of like, just helping them understand. Like, I know this isn't the way that you came up in the organization and I know it feels really uncomfortable, but can you just try a few things and see what happens? And I tell some great stories, some great case studies in the book where this, you know, where this happened, where people were like, wow, I did this. And like, you know, my team is incredibly engaged. They came back to me with all of these ideas, we changed all these processes. I gave them a ton of agency and ownership. Um, and now everybody's performing better, feeling better, has more time off, more time with their family. Right. And so it's really those moments of like just convincing somebody. Can you just try this little thing? You know, try it for a month, try it for six weeks and then report back if it didn't work great, it didn't work, you know, like no harm. So to me it's always those, it's that or kind of the unexpected stories of like, hey Jen, I heard you say X, Y and Z on Mark's podcast and I went and tried it and let me tell you what happened.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Uh, well. And it all just compounds and then there's a ripple effect then, especially in larger organizations, then one department is like, what's going on over there?

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. They want to know.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Are you noticing any trends or any industries kind of present day that are picking up on this a little bit faster, that maybe we can add some fuel to those industries knowing that they're already open and then maybe that effect to that point, then hopefully others see it and you know, we can keep that cut momentum going.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. I probably would like ask this the same back to you. Uh, I do think, um, the legal industry is actually doing quite a bit, um, which I've been really impressed with

Speaker A: and I guess another industry not really known for.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I guess quality of life. That's what I was gonna say. I kinda feel like I have a soft spot for them because it's not dissimilar from the world that I grew up in. Management consulting. I think this same of uh, um, I mean I think there's a lot of work still to be done, but I think healthcare realizes that they need to do better and be better and get better and they're starting to take steps towards it. I wouldn't say that they are there yet by any means, but I think that there is a general, in my experience, recognition, recognition that the way we've been doing it is no longer the way we can keep doing it. Um, and I think there's some real bright spots in, in, in healthcare which is promising for all of us because I don't know about you, but I don't want, you know, surgeons and doctors and nurses that um, are not completely well themselves.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think. Well, and I saw, I actually saw that this morning is the event I did was through, uh, actually a recruitment, recruitment firm, M. Pender and Howe. I mean it was just a breakfast event that completely, of course completely voluntary. I mean the room was full and, and they were, like I said, loaded full. There was General Manager or VPs of Departments and big, I mean this was more healthcare companies and, and um, uh, there was, there was pharma, there was health tech and, and so forth, but just health in general, which was just nice to see that clearly there, the topic was of interest. And of course you could see that people were also struggling. But I think, you know, this is where like we need to stick together and have more conversations. And that group was super open with what they're struggling with. Right. And let's just normalize that, but then work on. Well, here's some things that we can try and here's how we can least to your point, first try it individually but then share that with our teams and keep the momentum going. Like we all win. That's the thing. Right. There's no downside to having a hope strategy and a clear functioning mind.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Uh, I don't know why it, I don't. It shouldn't be so hard. But, but for, for some reason, for some reason it is. I, I do think, you know, maybe not specific industries, but I, I think, you know, uh, at kind of the regulation and policy level in certain countries, you're starting to see some promising regulation around, you know, workplaces being much more responsible, especially around kind of psychosocial health and things like that, for creating environments that, um, at a minimum aren't harming people.

Speaker A: Sure. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: So, so maybe that's the place to start. Right? We've reached rock bottom.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, well said. Well, I mean, time is flying here as we. I'm going to, uh, start trying to, to land the plane a little bit. But, but I'd love to know for you personally what are, are there any questions that have been on your mind that have been helpful when, you know, you're trying to prioritize the health of your own mind or thinking of the future ahead that you've been. You know, if I had, you know, whether you journal or not, I mean everyone's reflecting in some capacity. But if I opened up your journal and looked at some of the questions you're, you're thinking about, what would those be and what are some non negotiables for you when it comes to your mental fitness?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think, you know, questions for me are really around you know, the recognition that um, like most technology in our lives, actually like most everything in our lives, things can be used for bad and things can be used for good. And I do think that there are some really promising use cases for AI when it comes to the workplace. But I'm not actually seeing a lot of those play out the way that they should. And so I think the question I keep coming back to, uh, perhaps isn't a hopeful one but you know, at what point are we going to realize that you know, laying off thousands and thousands and thousands of people in the name of AI is not a good strategy for society and humanity? And what is our responsibility to society and humanity? I think that bounces around in my head constantly and I don't have any answer for you. Although I believe that done well AI can be a positive solution. Whereas right now it feels very much like a negative answer to, to many things for me and my goes back

Speaker A: to like bringing the human in the equation. Right. It's just like what is the humanity aspect of. And individually we can all take on that question even in the smallest of ways and what we're working on and just have that, that kind of top of mind and then I think we can kind of course correct or.

Speaker B: And how do we use AI to make us better, not worse? Right. To care more deeply about what's truly human versus what isn't. And right now that feels flipped. Um, for my own mental fitness I try to stay away from the new like I try to stay informed but stay away from the news. Mhm. That's probably my number one right now. I am somebody that lives with anxiety on a regular basis. Um, so sleep to me is a non negotiable. I have a reputation of um, just disappearing regardless of where I am because it's time for me to go to bed.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: That is something, yeah, that is something. I don't negotiate away and moving my body, whether that's getting outside on a walk with my dog or going to the gym and lifting weights. I, for me I've tried many, many Many things over the years for my anxiety and I will say, you know, movement and exercise when I'm not doing, um, you know, it's very apparent in how I show up and just how I feel about, you know, how I feel about myself. So I think those are, you know, some of my top strategies. I'm constantly, I'm constantly reflecting or even potentially overthinking. There's a fine line.

Speaker A: Sure, I agree. I, I resonate with that for sure.

Speaker B: But yeah, all those, all those things. But I would say, uh, staying away from the new sleep and exercise are my top three.

Speaker A: Amazing. Last question for you. What if you think of the future of the workplace and just our society in general, what, what has you hopeful?

Speaker B: I think conversations like this and you know, everywhere I go, and maybe it's the world that I live in, but, uh, there are a lot of really good, smart people who do care, uh, and that are trying to steer the ship in the right way. The other thing that has me really hopeful is young people. I spend a portion of my time on college campuses with young people. And I think every generation, we tend to be like, oh, they're so, you know, they see the world through rose colored glasses and they don't really understand how it is and whatever, you know, they're snowflakes or they're that whatever it is that we call them. I think we've done that with every generation. When I spend time on college campuses, I walk away and I'm like, first of all, we're handing them a world that's really hard. And second of all, they in no way are weak. They're in no way unwilling or unprepared to inherit the world that we're giving them. They are angry that we're giving them a world that's so screwed up. Um, but they want to fix it. It. And, and they are not unclear about that.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And they want to fix it in many ways in which we got wrong. You know, I mean it's, you know, their, their views around work and hustle culture and things like that, I don't disagree with. Um, you know, and so I think you're seeing some of that play out inside of our organizations in terms of, you know, the kind of the generations butting heads. Yeah. Spending time with young people gives me a lot of hope and I apologize ahead of time for what we learned left them to fix, but I believe that they can.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker B: And I will sign up to help for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, no, we're, we're Definitely, you know, we're. We're definitely out there helping as much as possible, but that is a beautiful message and a, uh, and a reminder, I think, a good reminder that because you're right, we all look. Seems like every generation does the same thing, and we don't look at the other side of that as well. And what you're seeing, and I'm seeing it as well in some of the. The, uh, the campuses I'm on. I want to just say thank you, I mean, of course, for making the time to come on the show, Jen, but I mean, a higher thank you for just dedicating a lot of energy and time to getting this message and your work out to as many people as possible and for, you know, writing the book and constantly showing up to change the conversation. I mean, I know, uh, I might be a little bit biased, but so I will say it's not easy and. And there aren't as many people as you would think actually doing this. So I deeply appreciate what you're doing for us and for everyone listening. Please pick up the book. Hope is the strategy. Follow Jen. I mean, bring her in to your organizations. Like, let's continue these conversations and I'll help each other and we all win when we do this. So thank you. Thank you.

Speaker B: Well, of course, I deeply appreciate that, Mark, and likewise, all of those same sentiments, you know, right back to you and the work that you're doing and, um, you know, for sharing so many other people's work in addition to your own.