Tackling Health Inequalities with Data and Innovation with Sam Fay, CEO of SISU Health

Speaker A: Hi, this is Steve Roost and you're listening to HealthTech Hour on UK health radio. Each week we give you the best news, views and interviews from the health technology world. From CEOs and founders to entrepreneurs and clinicians, the companies and people that are shaping the future face of healthcare, all on the world's number one talk health Radio. Hello and welcome M to this week's Health Tech Hour with me, Steve Roost. Each week we bring you the best news, views and interviews with the leaders, CEOs, founders, politicians, journalists, clinicians, the list goes on of the people that are changing the world of healthcare in the UK and beyond. As regular listeners will know, I am, um, a CEO and co founder of a health tech business myself, which is called pocdoc. Pop Doc's Healthy Heart Check is now the number one screening tool for cardiovascular disease outside of GP surgery in the uk and it's the number one diagnostic test on the high street. And you can get it in all of the major high street stores or from us directly. And if you want more, uh, information, you can get it on POCDOC Co. That's pocdoc. And thank you to pocdock, as always for supporting the show. Thank you. Also, if you're listening live on UK Health Radio, thank you to Johan and his team. We love, love, love being on the station. Um, if you're listening to us, please check out all of the other great shows that are on the station. There's some incredible content out there and we're proud to be on the world's number one talk health radio station. Thank you. As well, if you're listening on demand on any of the podcast channels.

Speaker B: Hello.

Speaker A: It's amazing to us that every month we get downloads in over 50 countries worldwide, which is amazing. Thank you so much. If you're watching this on Instagram or YouTube on our HealthTech, our channel, that's ealthtech hour. Hello, good to see you. Um, or if you're joining us on my Instagram channel, where we put the best bits. That's ah eever. Thank you so much for being part of the community. We wouldn't be able to do this without you guys, so thank you so much. Um, right, onto today's show. So, uh, onto today's show we have the CEO of SISU Health. That's SISU S I S U Health. Uh, SISU is one of the leading preventative healthcare businesses in the uk. They work with the NHS across the country and they really became well known for, um, health check kiosks for want Of a better word or health check stations probably is the better way to describe them, um, in workplaces and so on. And their CEO Sam, um, is someone that I've known for a long time, huge amount of respect for. She's well, widely regarded as one of leading voices in the prevention, the health prevention space and it's great to have her on the show. So Sam, um, welcome to the show. How are you?

Speaker B: I'm great, thank you Steve, Lovely to be here. Really nice to see you.

Speaker A: Good. So there's quite a lot that I want to cover onto today's show and I know that SISU and Pop Dark are ah, you know, close in spirit so to speak, even though, you know, with different technology and things like that, but we're all part of the same movement. So um, what was your kind of journey like into healthcare? How did it kind of happen?

Speaker B: Yeah, I suppose my journey is a little bit different to probably many of the founders and CEOs that you speak to in that. Actually um, I had quite a long corporate career. So for about 20 years I was driving uh, business transformation and scaling businesses in quite a wide range of industries. There was quite a personal pivot for me though. A few years ago my mum actually died very suddenly from um, a heart attack. One that arguably could have been prevented. So at that point in time, uh, health and prevention became a very personal topic. Uh, and I became uh, involved with SISU Health more than nearly six years ago now.

Speaker A: And what was the, what attracted you to Sisu of all of the places that you could have gone and sort of spent that time and, and sort of, you know, I don't know, invested in health.

Speaker B: Look, I think for me it was the attraction of really being able to uh, work on something that's about accessibility and about engaging and making an impact at scale. I think, um, there's not many parts of health such as prevention that you know, arguably is often the underdog, um, but that actually can have really significant impact before people even become sick. So for my, for me that really resonated and was something I really felt that I could, you know, have, have a, almost global impact in.

Speaker A: And what, um, on your kind of corporate journey? Because people, you know, you're right, a lot of the founders and things like that, that, that I speak to, probably you speak to, they don't tend to have a corporate background, generally speaking. Generally a corporate background, a long corporate background is generally non predictive of a kind of a life in a, in a startup. Um, I would say until that startup gets to a certain size. So what was it in your kind of corporate experience that maybe actually was the exception or sort of bucked that trend?

Speaker B: Yeah, I suppose I'd had roles that incorporated a lot of strategic execution, a lot of scalability, a lot of business transformation. I've worked across sort of process transformation, digital transformation, organizational transformation across a range of industries and I think that gave me that really core set of business skills, skills that I was able to sort of bring. Um, but I'd always been involved in very sort of high change, uh, organizations as well and I think that really sets you up with a great sort of set of, you know, agile and sort of lean capabilities that really align to sort of start up and scale up world. Um, so yeah, I guess that's what I bring and then obviously work with a really talented team to make sure we have the range of sort of clinical and health orientated skills across the business as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. What were your first impressions of the sort of startup life? What were the things that you I guess didn't expect or hadn't anticipated about it?

Speaker B: I don't know if we've got time Steve.

Speaker A: Pick the top three.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think, you know, I can really reflect on having come out of a corporate career and actually a lot of people that I meet who are sort of interested in a similar journey where they're looking to pivot to something that they feel um, has more, I suppose, purpose, more sort of direct impact. So that's probably the first reflection is obviously everything becomes very real and very close, um, and very personal. When you work in a startup and a scale up, you know, you are in and you are affecting and you are influencing everything. Um, and the very nature of that is obviously as everybody I'm sure that you talk to in the startup and scale up world and you yourself will attest it's a roller coaster at times. You have to be really resilient, uh, you have to be super positive and really orientate yourself on the successes and you have to surround yourself with people both within your business but as well as in your network and as well as, you know, in your family even who can sort of support you and work with you. Um, it's a little bit like, you know, that whole anecdote, it sort of, you know, takes a village. Well, it takes a village to raise a family. It takes a village to raise a star seven. Yeah, I think just a different village.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so like did people think you were crazy when, when you did it or like what Was the reaction?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think they were very mixed reactions. You can imagine some of my colleagues from a sort of corporate world for whom that was, was a very different sort of step out. Um, so mixed reactions. I think those who know me well sort of saw it as, you know, really, really sort of natural I suppose, organic sort of part of my journey, getting into something that was more purpose orientated. Those of whom sort of knew the story, uh, with my mum as well. So really mixed I think, you know, not for everybody by any means, but I would say, you know, it's sort of where I found, you know, my space if you like.

Speaker A: And what was it do you think? You always had this sort of in you and the sort of, the tragic circumstances of what happened with your mum sort of triggered it or was it actually just completely sort of came out of blue?

Speaker B: I think it had been emerging for a while to be honest. I think I'd be looking um, for something different, um, looking for something more aligned to sort of start up and scale up. A lot of people in my, my network, I used to live in Australia, were very much part of the sort of health tech ecosystem in Australia. So it wasn't sort of completely new uh, to me as such in terms of a world. I just think when you have a major life event, whatever that major life event is, it always makes you step back and just reassess where you're going, what you're doing with your life and really sort of try to orientate yourself towards, you know, what's really important. And for me I felt like that was the right time to make that change.

Speaker A: Makes sense. So what's CC's sort of take on um, prevention?

Speaker B: So as you described in the introduction, we are digital health platform. Um, our key focus is really to bring high accessibility for sort of preventative health resources. So we provide the uh, self service health check like you described. We call it our CCU health station but people might call it a health check machine, they might call it a kiosk, but we also provide a range of sort of digital resources, pathways, triage, an app and so on really to self empower people in the first instance but then to support them on their onward prevention journey and fundamentally deliver improved outcomes both for the individual, uh, both the sort of healthcare system but also you know, for the sort of country and the economic prosperity as well. So um, it's a pretty big mission. You know, we're trying to sort of be available, accessible to everyone and really make sort of prevention part of daily weekly routines not just something you do in a clinical environment every few years.

Speaker A: I mean, I would. I've always thought that your machines would go pretty well in workplaces. Is that, is that, is that fair?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. And do you know what is. One of the key places that SISU Health actually started was providing access within workplaces, because at the end of the day, it's where people spend an awful lot of time, their lives. And that's sort of one of our really key principles, is bringing the platform to the people. So workplaces. Absolutely. I would say about half of our nearly one and a half million health checks have been done in workplaces, but also now more in community locations. So more and more now you will find the health check machines in libraries, in pharmacies and leisure centers, anywhere, really. Those sort of target populations that perhaps are quite hard to access, more traditional ways sort of hang out and go, go and live their daily lives.

Speaker A: And, um, is. Did you say that this was sort of something that started in Australia and came over here, or is it. It's not related to Australia, no.

Speaker B: So the business was actually founded in the UK originally, but it developed a sister company in Australia. So you will also find SISU Health Group, which is a completely independent company operating in Australia, but with a very small, similar model. Um, some differences in that they are more orientated towards the pharmacy, uh, sort of channel in terms of reaching people and providing that preventative. Whereas here in the uk we're more orientated towards sort of community and workplace, with some pharmacy, uh, deployment as well.

Speaker A: And why have the communities, what, what. I guess what do you, if anything, like how has the kind of attitude to this type of thing shifted over the last few years?

Speaker B: Do you know what? I think there's always been an appetite for something that's sort of super convenient, accessible, but that is also, um, really available to everyone. You don't have to have the latest wearable mobile phone download and app. And I think particularly since COVID attitudes towards sort of self service, attitudes towards health being far more aligned to our expectations as consumers have really sort of adjusted. And so we've really seen the momentum behind, you know, prevention in the nhs strategies as well really sort of grow and therefore the platform really start to sort of scale out across the uk.

Speaker A: And what is it that's most attractive about it? Is it the blood pressure piece of it? Is it the other bits of it? Like what. What's the sort of, the thing that really seems to be landing for you guys?

Speaker B: You know, it's really hard to Generalize, to be honest, because every individual is so different. But if we sort of look at the huge amount of data that we collect, you know, every week, every month, people are driven to understand their blood pressure. I think there's a growing awareness as to how cardiovascular disease, um, is such a key and often preventable, um, lifestyle, um, impacting sort of area. So blood pressure is a really key one. But also, to be honest, people are really interested to go on their own weight management journey and we'll be using the platform to support that or to find out more about some of their lifestyle risks, such as their smoking, their sleep, their activity, their nutrition. So no two people are the same is the reality, isn't it, in healthcare? So the platform is serving slightly different purposes, but broadly increasing health literacy and helping sort of activate and motivate people into sort of next step interventions.

Speaker A: And has this changed since the 10 year plan? Has there been more momentum around this or what's your kind of view of the state of play at the moment?

Speaker B: Yeah, look, I definitely think there's a lot more engagement with the topic and I think there's a lot more focus and priority. I think the NHS Long term plan, those three sort of themes that we all know really, really well around, sort of moving from sickness to prevention, analog to digital and hospital to community, have really resonated. Um, but I also think what's changed a little bit in sort of recent months even is a range of the other sort of policies and frameworks that have come out in line with that. So, you know, we've had the major condition strategy for some time, reinforcing things like the direction across cardiovascular disease. But more recently we've had the Neighbourhood Health Framework, which is really trying to sort of provide guidance on how to set out, you know, a delivery model. And uh, then there's a large part of a prevention, sort of proactive risk management part to that. But even strategic commissioning more recently, you know, it's been a lot about population health and you know, really getting down to the local level as well.

Speaker A: And what's your take on the neighbourhood stuff? So for everyone listening, we're a Broadchurch, so there's been a move, I guess over the last 12 to 24 months, um, sort of was kind of announced in the 10 year plan about how more care would move into a neighborhood type concept. Um, make it more local, give more power to localities to determine investments, make it easier to invest in prevention, um, like where if you were to give that whole kind of process a grade right now, like what would you grade it?

Speaker B: I think there's a difference between the concepts and the process, isn't there? I'd probably give them slightly different grades. I think the concept, you know, really welcome and I think it's been really positively received. I don't think many of us could argue about bringing health closer to people, um, and being more impactful, you know, near where people live, whether that's in the home, in the community. I think from a place process perspective, there's still so many unknowns and we're still seeing so many areas approach it in such different ways. But to be honest, I feel like we've been doing neighbourhood with all of our partners. I mean you probably feel a bit the same, Steve, with Poxo, almost like we've been doing neighborhood, you know, for, for quite a number of years. The, the whole concept of neighborhood hubs I agree with. I think where. It's, where we do have some weaknesses is this whole concept of. I think it's 250 odd neighborhood hubs that were announced, some to come in by 2030, some will take longer. And if you do the numbers, that's an awful lot of people per hub. You know, that's over 200,000, something like 250,000. So there needs to be more, there needs to be those sort of, you know, spokes, if you like, from the hubs into the community, into people's homes to provide that kind of greater support. You've got to get that scale. Um, so I think that's where we really need to sort of work with neighborhood to make sure it's really having the reach and impact that it's intended.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean my take on it is, is that I agree with you. I think it's, it's the right approach. You know, it's not right in sort of implies like some kind of binary nature to it. I think it's the right direction. But I think the, there's an element to it's. How much is it just rebranding the word community, you know, uh, slightly different. I mean like you, we've been, we sort of really focused on the community and that's really good and that's gone really well. And is neighborhood just a slight rebranding or what's different? I think the thing that is different, which hasn't come out yet is how the money's going to flow basically. And so like it. If, if, if neighborhood, these neighborhood hubs or whatever they end up being, or these kind of multi neighborhood organizations or whatever they are, are if they have their own sort of legal structure and that's how the funding gets deployed, then that would be different from community, because community was more of a loose concept, defined really as sort of outside of GP surgery, really. Whereas if it's more structured, uh, and they want to call it neighborhood in order to deploy that capital that way, then so be it. But that, that would make sense to me. But I guess we're yet to see.

Speaker B: We are. I think, you know, a lot of people, when they talk about prevention, of course they have to talk about funding and have to point out that there are funding challenges in prevention. We have seen more three year sort of settlements, um, you know, coming in now for commissioners, which I think is really positive because prevention tends to need to be spent in one space, but benefit, benefit, you know, felt somewhere else.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think. I mean, my take on all of this is that, like, funding is sort of a baby word for revenue, fundamentally, you know, and so I think the, the UK health tech sector has been too reliant on funding decisions for too long and, um, you know, not as focused on really understanding customer needs and selling against customer needs. Right. So I think that NHS is amazing. Ah. If, as an urgent need, it generally pretty much solves it if it's urgent enough. And I think that the challenge, as with any customer, is to understand if you're selling into or against a true need or is it like a nice to have, or if it's a nice to have, why is it a nice to have? Why is it not a need? You know, And I think this sort of perpetual wait for quote, unquote, more funding, I think, ends up sort of undermining everything because it's a bit like you're waiting for somebody, somewhere to sort of drop some cash somewhere, um, as opposed to working out whether there's a business and how to grow the business and that type of stuff. But, um, yeah, I don't know what you think about that. I just went on a bit, I think.

Speaker B: I think you're right. There's all these different elements, aren't there? You know, we, we need our businesses to thrive, to be able to bring the benefit to the people. We need the people to want to engage. The average person doesn't wake up in the morning and think, oh, I'll book a preventative health appointment today. The average patient doesn't even have the option. But then there needs to be the health economic side of it. You know, the economics need to stack up in business cases for whether it's the NHS or whether it's for an employer. So, you know, business. We spend a lot of time looking at the health economics, looking at the benefit profiles, whether that's sort, productivity and engagement for an employer or whether it's, you know, um, burden, avoidance of burden, or whether it's sort of cost efficiency or whether it's increasing sort of the number of people for whom we're addressing health risks for the nhs. So, yeah, it's always a complicated chess board, I think, isn't it, in anything that's associated with healthcare, those pressures.

Speaker A: Agreed. Right, we have to go for our first commercial break. We'll be back again in two minutes with my guest today, Sam Fay, who is the CEO of sisu and sisu, uh, are one of the leading preventative healthcare organizations in the uk. We will be right back.

Speaker C: UK Health Radio, the station that makes you feel good. What if your healing journey could feel empowering, hopeful, even transformative? Welcome to the Alkaline Collective Mastermind, a community for anyone facing cancer, staying cancer free or committed to prevention, no matter your stage, whether you've chosen conventional care, an integrative path or a fully holistic approach, here you're not alone. Here, your healing journey becomes a journey of empowerment. We explore the science of oxygenation, metabolism and alkalinity, while strengthening your emotional, spiritual and physical well being. This is a mastermind with heart, accountability, connection, wisdom and real support. Because your journey isn't just about surviving, it's about thriving. Join us by clicking on the Alkaline Collective Mastermind banner, uh, on the UK Health Radio homepage or directly@alkaline-collective.com. where self belief grows, healing deepens and transformation begins.

Speaker D: Sarah wasn't bad at her job. She was stuck in hidden grief. After her dog died, she took a sales role just to stay busy. But every pitch felt empty. A Cogni movement session uncovered that she was seeking the warmth of her dog rather than serving her clients. Using our, uh, patented movements and sensory patterns, she cleared the grief and rocketed to the top. What hidden emotion is holding you back? Try our essentials program at, uh, the special UK health radio rate. Visit cognamovement.com radio or click on the cognormovement banner on the UK health radio homepage. Results vary.

Speaker C: UK health radio, the station that makes you feel good.

Speaker A: Hello and welcome back to this week's Health Tech Hour with me, Steve Roost and my guest this week, Sam Fay, who is the CEO of sisu. So, um, let's just go back a couple of steps. Why did SISU really focus in on this idea of health stations, of all the different things that it could have focused in on. At what point did that happen? And was there kind of like a preceding story where you guys tried some stuff and then it ended up evolving into the health station concept? Like how did it sort of all come together into this execution?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a great question. Look, originally, um, the sort of concept was developed as an online sort of digital platform. So you know, users could come on, they could essentially do a range of surveys and questionnaires to find out their health risks. Uh, and then we sort of provided a range of, you know, lifestyle improvement plans, personalized recommendations, that kind of thing. But some of our really sort of ah, early findings um, were firstly that self reported data, ah, can be, you know, inherently weak. People often don't know their blood pressure. So about 70% of people who use the Susu health platform haven't had a blood pressure check in any recent time. So that they really don't know. A lot of people will underestimate their weight, um, and they're just sort of not aware of what an accurate set of health data was. So that was the first thing. The second thing was we just saw real accessibility gaps in sort of an online app or web only, um, sort of opportunity. So we developed the City of Health Station, which is essentially a medical device health check machine that gives really accurate health metrics but it's also really engaging experience. You can place it out in the community, workplace, people see it, they're curious. It only takes four to five minutes to do quick, simple, convenient and it's really activating. So then we can move people either into other digital journeys or into in person journeys if that's appropriate. But yeah, that's why the City Health Station came about. Um, and it's, it's obviously not a small task to develop a medical device, as many of those listening will know. Um, quite an undertaking, but a really important one I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, because it's quite a big bit of kit, you know what I mean? It like, because it does quite a lot of stuff. So did someone just, you guys, whoever sat there and actually sort of designed it and then took it through medical device approval and all that stuff.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And we've done it a couple of times now. So the very first, uh, SISU Health station we affectionately call the Max because it is, as you say, it's quite a large piece of kit. It's 2 meters high so that people can stand underneath the height sensor and stand on the weight Scales and do their blood pressure and a range of other metrics. And then more recently we also developed the SISU Health Mini. So it's a more portable sort of self set up version if you like, you know, use cases of things like, you know, oil rigs, remote areas, um, you know, small sort of consultation rooms, that kind of thing. So we've done it a couple of times now.

Speaker A: Okay, and what's your view on the medical device regulation pathway in general?

Speaker B: Oh, what a question. Such a huge topic, isn't it? And to be honest I never thought I would find it as fascinating as, as I do and come to know as much about it as I do. Look, I don't think anyone could disagree that medical device regulation is a really important risk and safety, uh, consideration to ensure that we have devices that do what they say and do that safely and with the appropriate sort of risk mitigation. Of course it's onerous, um, of course it's very involved and very expensive, particularly for startups and scale ups. Quite a significant barrier. But I really think it's such a necessary uh, way forward. What becomes super complicated as uh, you'll know Steve, is when you then want to move into new and different geographies and then of course, you know, dealing with the medical device regulations that differ so dramatically, you know, according to where you are and what your intended sort of use and context is. So it never ends I suppose would be my sort of thought, changing it and you have to keep adjusting.

Speaker A: Have you guys gone international as yet or what's the future?

Speaker B: Look, our core focus at the moment is UK and Europe. So um, that is where we're sort of orientated. So essentially having our class 2A, having RCE is sort of sufficient for us to operate in those markets. But we've always got an eye, um, we're always being asked about other sort of geographies and regions. So really having to look very carefully at where the sort of next step is for us in terms of, you know, that expansion.

Speaker A: What's your take on this sort of perennial debate I think within UK health tech around, you know, the need to be successful in the UK versus the sort of drive to internationalize and that being the pathway and that being uh, built off of a success story as opposed to not having cracked the uk, therefore needing to go abroad.

Speaker B: There's no one size fits all, is there? I think it depends so much on um, you know, the type of company that you are, the type of product that you have and the sort of funding journey that you want to go on, obviously, for those who are fortunate enough to be bootstrapped, you know, they have, they have some flexibility of choice, you know, beyond the sort of funding side of things. I think things have changed a lot since I've sort of been fundraising over the last five years. The whole, you know, move to sort of orientate yourself towards the US has changed quite a lot as well in recent times. So I think for some companies it's a very natural, um, move. I think, you know, from my, my kind of personal standpoint, I would always prefer to really sort of get that core product market fit, really get stabilization in the market and really get sort of certainty off which then to sort of leapfrog into other regions because, you know, you can't underestimate the sort of focus and resource that goes along with, you know, looking at new and different geographies and markets. You don't want, want to erode your existing sort of, you know, stability and growth journey. So it's a balance, I think, and

Speaker A: different for everyone, makes sense and you guys make a physical thing and we make a physical thing. So, you know, I think that there's, I don't know what you feel like, but I think people sometimes underestimate the complexity of making physical things at scale.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think if you're, if You're a consumer SaaS platform of some sort, then just, you know, trying out different markets and seeing what happens is a pretty low risk strategy, isn't it? But as you say, when you have, you know, hardware, software, services, integrations into health care and so on, you know, that, that isn't, um, such a simple, you know, replication in different and different channels or different considerations from a regulation and a risk and so on perspective. So, yeah, I think they're very different

Speaker A: beasts and what have you kind of, I mean, has anyone ever really stickly, realistically, like actually disagreed with your sort of thesis, so to speak? You know, there might be lots of reasons why they didn't buy it, but did anyone ever actually like, tell you that you were like, wrong? Fundamentally?

Speaker B: I think we've all been told we're wrong for various reasons. Look, I think, I think you always get skepticism and it can be, you know, really healthy sort of response in the market. I would say far less so in recent years. I think go back a little bit further when perhaps self service in community outside of the GP clinic wasn't as much the norm and wasn't being pulled, you know, by people as much as it is now, there was more sort of Skepticism and more challenge. I think, you know, having the medical device, Class 2A, being able to really stand behind your accuracy and so on is really helpful. Um, but, you know, all challenges taken sort of constructively. But I think it's very difficult to argue with bringing prevention closer to the people, empowering people, using personalization and so on. And the data shows the benefits. We are to some extent a data platform and we collect huge amounts of data that show every week the impact that we're having, the literacy that's improving, the outcomes that are coming. Um, so I think that's very difficult to argue with. I think that weight of evidence and data.

Speaker A: Yeah, the tides definitely turned, you know, on needing to find solutions that can exist in communities, neighborhoods and things like that. I think that when we first started, this was before we actually started building it, and we were doing our customer, uh, research, people were telling us that there's no way anyone would prick their finger. And, I mean, we thought they were wrong then. And it sort of obviously turned out to be that they were completely wrong. So stuff definitely does change. And how do you see the next kind of few years playing out, do you think, in the uk?

Speaker B: Well, I really just think the momentum behind prevention in particular is really going to build. I think that sort of coming together as well of healthcare, be it the NHS or public health and workplace and employers, I think we're really going to see a shift both in mindset but also in sort of partnerships where those, those really sort of key, I suppose, influences are going to start to work more together to really provide way more impact and to focus that far more around the individual. So I see it as really, really positive, actually. I think, um, of course it's challenging and of course, you know, there's. There's lots of reasons to, to wonder how fast or how effectively it's going to move. But I'm feeling really optimistic.

Speaker A: That's. Let me take, um. Do you get any kind of employers sort of suggesting that actually the NHS should be responsible for the health of their workers? Or has everyone sort of got with the program now, really where they know that they need to look after the health of their own workers above and beyond what the NHS provides?

Speaker B: I think everybody's got with the program, Steve, these days. I think, um, employers know that health and wellbeing is such an important topic for their employees, and they also know what the realistic restrictions are in terms of their employees being able to access health and particularly preventative health. And I think they see the really positive, both just employee Engagement impact as well as absence productivity impacts of having platforms such as this. That's not to say all employers are in the same space. I mean you have employees at really different varies of I suppose, maturity around how they're approaching health and well being. But broadly we're seeing all employees understand and appreciate they need to take a role. They've just got a slightly different sense of what that role is and um, well, let's face it, how much budget they can put to it as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. And also like what things they care most about within the widest definition of health. Um, because I know that where their

Speaker B: duty of care is as well, I suppose.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Like what, what is it that's most important to them? Because everyone always talks about like oh, workplace. I think the lazy assumption is that workplaces care about reducing absenteeism, which I think is like, it's definitely not, it's not false. Clearly. Like if you're running a workplace you definitely care about absenteeism. But I think, I think it's a lot more nuanced than that where a large corporate feel how they assess investments in health and employee health and things like that. I just, I don't think it's just about reducing sick days.

Speaker B: No, I totally agree. I think people are far more in tune now with you know, retention, um, with sort of employee engagement. They're far more in tune with the, you know, things like presenteeism, productivity. And I think they're starting to see that much more rounded view as having, you know, happy and healthy employees has a positive, positive impact, you know, on businesses.

Speaker A: And that flows through, I think to consumers Right in some way, shape or form, either directly or indirectly.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, totally agree. And I think people are starting to look at health in the way that they look at other consumer products. They want to consume it on their terms far more than say a few years ago.

Speaker A: And do you think this goes right? Do you feel like that this sort of goes to the top of the nhs, do you feel. Because I know they started the work of and health accelerator, uh, you ah, know, which is sort of for everyone. That's not a health Tech Insider, that's. Or Healthcare Insider, that's a program the NHS England Department of Health, one of those guys funded 40 million pounds, 30 million pounds split between three areas. West Yorkshire, new car, Northeast North Cumbria, so it's Newcastle, Cumbria. And then the third one, I can't remember, might have been the Southwest, not sure. And um, purely designed to see if they can invest in workplaces to improve health Outcomes and therefore productivity.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, the Department of Health and Social Care launched a new program, the CVD Workforce Programme. We delivered about 30% of the national target, which was all about funding and delivering health checks in workplaces. So definitely all the way to the top. There is this real sort of building of momentum in that space.

Speaker A: That's cool. And is that something that they're repeating?

Speaker B: I think we'll have to wait and see. There's certainly still a lot of conversation about the role of workplace and, um, how does that fit with neighborhood and community and with all of the various policies and so on at the moment.

Speaker A: And how does what you guys do tie into the hypertension case finding stuff? Because that's. That's going gangbusters.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So you mean the hypertension case finding that you might find in your local pharmacy?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So, like, again, for anyone, anyone not listening, anyone listening doesn't know, basically you can go to your pharmacy, you can get a blood pressure check done, uh, on the NHS and The pharmacy gets 15 quid. And that program, um, I think this year they'll do like 4 or 5 million checks or something ridiculous like that.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great program and, you know, great that we're seeing more and more services move into pharmacy. I think there's a couple of parts to it. Obviously, it's only available to people over 40. Um, and in our data, we're seeing risks manifest and start to come apart far earlier than that. Um, but in everything that we will do, we'll provide people with their result, we'll provide them with a recommendation, and in many areas, we'll signpost to services such as that to say, this is a next appropriate step for you to actually engage with a health professional or with a clinician to further, uh, essentially further look into that risk and, if appropriate, go into a pathway.

Speaker A: And how do people feel when they get that message? Are they, like, thankful slash fearful? Are they sort of, like engaged, disengaged? Like, what generally happens?

Speaker B: We generally see it. There's about 50% of people who weren't aware of some of their health risks. But broadly, most people, um, respond really positively and a lot respond with. A lot of the people we survey say that they are now activated, motivated to make a positive lifestyle change. So, you know, that is something that they do. We do see a lot of people also move themselves through a referral that's been recommended. So, um, I think in general, people would rather know, um, even if perhaps before the health check, that's not necessarily how they would feel because then they're in control.

Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's always going to be better to know, as long as there's a sort of rough pathway that people follow after which, you know, so they're not just sort of left. Left.

Speaker B: Yeah, so key the. So what, you know, what's next for me?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, we're gonna go to our last commercial break, um, and then we'll be back in a couple of moments with my guest, Sam Fay, who's the CEO of sisu. We'll be right back.

Speaker C: UK Health Radio, the station that makes you feel good.

Speaker A: Apples and pears, Beef and skittles. Cider with Rosie. Common or garden. Ant and deck. Fish and chips. Mum and dad. UK Health Radio and Health Triangle Magazine. Each is good by itself, but enjoying both is always better. Add Health Triangle Magazine to your master monthly health regime. Check it out@, uh, UK healthradio.com Strawberries and Creek.

Speaker C: UK Health Radio, the station that makes you feel good.

Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to the last part of this week's Health Tech Hour with me, Steve Roost and my guest, Sam Fay, the CEO of SISU Health. So, Sam, one of the things you just dropped in, in the last section was that there was a CBD program funded by Department of Health and you delivered a huge amount of that. What for everyone listening, because we're a broad church, is could you give us a bit of an insight about what actually goes into delivering something like that? Because it's easy to say and I think people sometimes get frustrated maybe about why services aren't available here or there or, you know, could you maybe just kind of elaborate and inject a bit of realism as to why this stuff's actually quite hard to do at that scale? You know, I mean, it's amazing that you did it and I think people probably don't realize how difficult that actually is.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course, I suppose probably some of the context to set is that, you know, many of these programs are, are really, really different and actually many of them come out with, with relatively short amount of notice, um, in terms of both putting together plans and scopes and looking at funding. Um, and as a result, often there is no additional resource, whether that's within the local authority, the public health team, the relevant, you know, ICB or NHS Trust team. So often these things are layering in, um, on, you know, what are already sort of full time jobs and roles that people are trying to perform. Um, the CVD workforce was a really great program. It was all about delivering, essentially, health checks to people in workplaces. Um, but in partnership with local authority and public health teams, uh, m. We delivered a number of those. All of the models were slightly different. So I suppose that's the other really important context, is that in any program such as this, you're always going to have to localise it, because every icb, every local authority, every public health team, you know, every. Every sort of part of the country, every population has different needs, different systems, different processes, different priorities, and they all operate in slightly different ways. So, you know, as a team, it's not like we can cookie cutter roll out, uh, the implementation in one local area to another. We have to really work very collaboratively with the local teams to sort of truly understand what's going to work in their area. You know, our platform has a physical component, the health check machines, and working on sort of location strategy and really getting to the part of the community where we'll have most sort of impact and pick up most footfall and most interest is really important. But then we also have our digital and software elements. So really understanding, you know, what. What are the languages that are spoken in the local area and how do we sort of support some of the cultural differences perhaps in that local area as well. And then, of course, there's all of the reporting and all of the processes and all of the governance, um, and they can be very different as well. So in terms of the data we need to provide, it might be quite bespoked, it might be quite tailored. So that in itself then becomes, you know, a lot of effort. And I suppose the last thing is, as many of our listeners will know, is there's so many stakeholders involved in a program like that, across all of those different parties with so many different boxes to tick, um, and things that they sort of need to be involved in. So the stakeholder communication and management piece can be really, really challenging. But, you know, if you embrace it, then, you know, you can have massive impact and scale, um, you know, with a platform like ours, really effectively.

Speaker A: Where do you stand on this issue of the NHS being. Some people complain that it's slow and other people say, well, actually, it's not any slower than any other industry and it's actually more about trying to make sure that you match into their exact requirements. And some people are kind of in the middle,

Speaker B: I think, because we deal with. I mean, we work with insurers, we work with employers, you know, we work with pharmacies, we work with NHS public health, so we sort of work with really wide range. And I would agree with you in that every one of those, let's call them buyers, clients, partners, stakeholders, whatever you want to call them, comes with a different range of sort of needs and constraints. Um, you know, doing a deal with a really large employer who perhaps is operating, you know, in a high risk environment is going to take you a really long time and involve lots of governance, quite rightly, around health safety, data privacy and so on. Um, so I would also say our experience is not always that the NHS is really slow. You know, we always talk, don't we? You can't bundle the NHS into one like organizational definition. It's not like that. Uh, um, but if you work really collaboratively and if you really work to understand that particular, you know, areas, priorities, funding options, you know, governance and so on, you can move through the processes, you know, at a reasonable pace. Some of our fastest turnarounds of contracts have been, you know. Right.

Speaker A: So, yeah, you know, I, I agree, I agree. I think that this NHS is slow thing I think really is like code for my NHS sales suck. I think that's what people, I think that's, I genuinely think that's what people do.

Speaker B: I think it could be quite a change challenge. I think if you're something really new and different that um, you know, you're really at the cutting edge of innovation and you're really going to need a high level of sort of change management and sort of, you know, first mover adoption kind of idea then. Yeah, you know, the NHS is not famous for being, you know, really sort of, uh, you know, change hungry. It's quite risk averse. So, um, I think it depends on who you are and what you're doing and how you approach it, but that it's all about finding the ways to work together, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean my, my sort of take on it is that first of all, if you're, if you're, if you built a product for healthcare, right, that, if that's your, if that's your broad vertical, then I don't believe there's a healthcare system that's fast in general. Yeah, I, I don't believe that's a fast moving sector. Uh, for all of the reasons that you mentioned. There's risk, there's patience, there's liability. Like it's people's lives, it's people's health, all kinds of different things. So you're, you're not in fast moving consumer goods, you're just not. So you can argue that the NHS is slow, but Then pretty confident the German healthcare system isn't massively faster or you know, and you might get lucky because you might end up in a healthcare system that just happens to have a really urgent need for your thing. But then I think that feeds back into my argument which is the healthcare system can move quite rapidly if you solve a real urgent quantified need for them. If you are a, if you end up in this sort of nice to have, really interesting, we'll look at it, but not quite sure where it fits type of bucket, then yeah, it's going to take a really long time because they don't have an urgent need and they may not even be spending money to solve the thing that you solve, which is an almost impossible sales challenge. Like if they're not spending money already to solve the problem you solve, that's almost impossible to sell into.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think, I think it's human nature, isn't it for us to choose one or two of those, you know, examples you described where they've found themselves right place, right time, right need and they've really been able to accelerate at a, you know, really unusual speed. And we all sort of look at those and go, oh, that should be the same for everyone. But to your point, it's just not, it's just not the case. You know, you need to be careful in healthcare and that's, that takes time and you need to build maturity. I always talk about, I think a lot of um, health tech founders and CEOs and so on will experience this. You're a startup, you're a scale up, you're agile, you're lean, you're fast moving, you have pace, you're problem solving, you're innovating all of the time with one hand. But with the other hand you need to be a very mature, conservative, risk averse, uh, quality managed, sort of, you know, governance. Sure, sure. Organization, because that's what they need you to be. And sometimes that could be a bit of a conflict internally and externally and that's the balance you gotta find.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's going to be way more of a conflict if you aren't building a medical device. I think if you're a medical device business like that, any, any uh, quite a lot of that sort of like hyper agile stuff that they knock the edges off of that I think a little bit you can still be a lot faster and more agile than big pharma and things like that, which is like just glacial. But if, you know, it's different. But I do think in like a software SaaS type type situation. Yeah, I think you can get in real trouble by trying to move too fast and not worrying too much about that governance stuff. Um, so what, and do you feel like, or how much do you feel like your experiences in the corporate world sort of helped you inject some calm and some sort of common sense and some, you know, or maybe not, I'm not sure. But what, what benefits do you think that's brought over into what you've been doing for the last six years?

Speaker B: Um, I think, I think everything that you do always has to come back to your point, has to have a benefit for the individual, the patient, the business, the country, the community. So I think, you know, you get a really strong grounding in that kind of business case, commercial side of it, but you also get, you know, that real kind of desire to be close to the output. I think, um, one of the things that it also sort of teaches you is not necessarily just to follow the latest trend. That was a real learning for me in that healthcare. It's amazing how strong the trends can be, which sounds crazy given that, you know, human beings, you know, it's not really changing in terms of the healthcare issues that we have. Perhaps the seriousness and the inequalities impact is changing, but the trends that make move through healthcare and how you need to sort of sustain a steady ship, really focus on things like your product market fit, you're building a mature sort of business that can scale because organizations like the nhs, um, you know, they need you to scale and they need you to do that sometimes at pretty short notice, uh, and again in really measured ways. So, ah, I think it's to your point, it's all about balance, isn't it? And all about, um, carry on, get it done. Um, but with balance.

Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree. Um, so what have been some of the most profound lessons that you've had from your life, your sort of second work life, if you like, after the corporate stuff, now moving into the startup space. What have been some of the most profound things that you've learned in the last six years?

Speaker B: I think you learn a lot about yourself, I think you learn a lot about how you really thrive, uh, in a work environment and also where you don't. Perhaps that just comes with age as well, Steve. Maybe it's less about kind of, you know, what we do and where we operate. Maybe it's just a sort of an age thing as well. But I think as well for me, you know, moving into health care and just having that um, opening my eyes to the, to that world and opening my eyes to, you know, how people are sort of walking around without an awareness of some of their quite serious health risks and without currently that sort of support to put in place those modifications to avoid, you know, those, those um, possibly very serious, you know, health outcomes in the future as well. So I've, I've gained a love for data, um, you know, quite data driven person before, but now I absolutely love just sitting here and looking at our population health data. Um, and I've gained a real sort of passion I suppose for health and for all the people who work in health. Um, you know, that we're very lucky I think, to be surrounded by what in general is a very uh, purpose driven community. You know, people have to create thriving businesses to be able to do what they, they want to do. But so many people in our community are doing it because they genuinely want to deliver good for the, for the world or the population or the community. And I think we're very lucky to work in that sort of context.

Speaker A: I completely agree. I think that healthcare is. One of. My background's not from healthcare either. So when I came over I was really, really deeply moved by how passionate people feel about the mission, whatever their mission happens to be. Um, and I think that's really helpful because it provides sort uh, of a guiding light and North Star beyond just revenue, P and L, you know, user numbers, things like that. And I think it's a really unifying force. And um, it surprised me how easy it was to get around the table and to get agreement about some general principles. When you're speaking to anyone who works in the healthcare system actually, and it really resides around the fact that you're all trying to achieve the same thing. And you know, assuming that what you're doing and how you're doing it is approved, certified accurate, safe, etc. Then actually you can have pretty much every single time a really great conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah, because on the other side of everyone's experiencing similar frustrations as well actually. Um, so, you know, it's really similar. And look, I think, you know, we talk internally quite a lot about what could be seen as a conflict, you know, as you say, as a business talking one moment about your sales and your revenue and your turnover and you know, in the next moment talking about how many people have done health checks with us in the last week, how many of those have we uncovered a significant risk, how many people gave up smoking, how many people reduced that risk. So, you know, really finding that right Balance between the two. Yeah, we talk about that a lot internally, because I think it's a really important kind of concept and thing to talk about.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's hard or harder in health to talk publicly about revenue and growth. Yeah, I think that's hard. And, um, I think it's harder in the uk, particularly because of the NHS being a customer and that, being the government and public and things like that. I don't know necessarily that's the healthiest way to go, because it's sort of. I feel sometimes that it. I don't know, it's almost like sometimes we're trying to, like, hide that stuff, you know, and it's sort of, uh. Whereas I think in other markets it's just a little bit more honest. Like, for example, the US is obviously. I'm not saying the US healthcare system is perfect, far from it, but it's very, very commercial.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think the average person in the UK really has no idea, uh, from an NHS perspective how much something costs or, you know, what. What sort of value is being delivered. I do think, though, uh, you know, just in the last year or two, you know, that those conversations around health economics, around, you know, GDP impact, productivity impact, are, uh, surfacing much, much more. So they are bringing, you know, the commercial reality of healthcare and particularly health outcomes really to the fore. I think. I think there's a way to go. You're right. It's. It's. It's challenging to find the right balance between the two topics with a lot of audiences.

Speaker A: Uh, I think the way to go is. Is exactly what you said. Like, we're particularly in prevention, we have to move from talking about the fear of not, or the cost of not doing something to the revenue generation, GDP growth, of doing it, because otherwise. Well, first of all, I think that everyone's heard all of that Fear Factor stuff thousands of times before. The statistics everyone rolls out are all the same statistics every single time. So I think we need to change the debate. It's actually what we did at our parliamentary event really well, where, uh, we sort of Talked about this 1% additional GDP through prevention, and it really landed really, really well because it just completely changes the perspective on things and makes people. I feel like people in prevention particularly have felt a bit beaten up, you know, over the last however long about, like. Yeah, no one's listening and, you know, you're constantly the sort of, you know, Cassandra of the world of, like, the world's going to end type of thing. Um, but I Don't know what you think.

Speaker B: Look, I think prevention is traditionally, it's really hard to see the end financial benefit because, you know, who's to say whether that person would or wouldn't have had a heart attack in the next 10 years. Right. Because they went through a prevention program. But you can do it. Um, and the numbers are staggering to your point. The numbers are absolutely staggering. Whether you're talking about keeping people in work, whether you're talking about keeping them productive, or whether you're talking about avoiding those really serious health, um, outcomes so, such as heart attacks and strokes. You know, if you can start to identify more people in the UK with hypertension, you know, the numbers are in the hundreds of millions that you can essentially save the country and the healthcare system, let alone, as I mentioned, you know, the workforce and community benefits that you can drive. So, uh, I think, you know, you and I are going to hopefully be the advocates and keep championing those big numbers because you, yeah, people are listening and they understand how that all flows through to the benefit of everyone. Whether that's yourself or whether that's, you know, you're the carer of the person. It flows through to everyone.

Speaker A: Makes sense. We've got two minutes left. Minute and a half. Now, real quick, what's the one kind of self talk or motto that you use to, or have used to get yourself through some of the difficult times that you want to share with the world to help them?

Speaker B: Gosh, that is a really tough one because I'm not really a motto kind of person. But to be honest, you know, I think, I think something along the lines of, you know, if you never try, you'll never know. Um, so I think sometimes, you know, you need to get up in the morning and you can, um, and I, and you can procrastinate about, you know, should we test that? Should we try that? Should we talk to someone about that? Uh, and at the end of the day, if you don't try, you'll never, you'll never know what's, you know, someone might say no, someone might disagree with you. So I think it's, it's the end of the day, it's putting yourself out there and knowing the very worst, you'll get a learning opportunity out of it. At the best, you might uncover something amazing. Perfect.

Speaker A: Uh, thank you so much for that. So thank you very much. Sam Fay from sisu. Where do people go quickly if they want to learn more about Sisu?

Speaker B: Sisuhealth.co.uk as you said, s I s u health.co.uk and thanks so much, Steve, for having me today.

Speaker A: And thank you to everyone for listening. We'll be back again next week with another show.