Human Leadership with Paul Mersino

Speaker A: If people turned off cable news and turned off social media and just looked, uh, next door at their neighbors or looked at their co workers or walked down Main street, they'd realize that actually the world's a pretty good place. You know, we get caught up in this sound machine. I think.

Speaker B: You're now listening to a new episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times. Gratitude instills humility. Gratitude removes ego. Gratitude helps empower the best in others around you. Our goal is to guide individuals and companies to practice gratitude so you can live a longer, happier, and more successful life. Get ahead of life with connection and purpose. This is Gratitude Through Hard Times with Chris Shimbra.

Speaker C: Well, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to another episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times. It's your host, Chris Shembra. And today is a, uh, little bit of a rainy day in New York City. It's June in the city after the Knicks just won their first championship in 53 years. We got the World cup going, we got the Pride Parade coming this Sunday. There's lots of energy in this city. And what an honor it is to be here with you all today for another great episode of this podcast. To all the LOL listeners out there, it's good to see you, old friend. As you know, some of my favorite moments throughout the week are when you email in your thoughts, your questions, your comments about this week's episode guest. So my inbox is open and keep those thoughts flowing. Your support through the years is what's helped us stay confident in bringing more human centric material to you each and every day. To all the new listeners, it's nice to meet you. I don't know how you stumbled upon our humble little corner of the Internet, but it's good to see you. It's nice to meet you. If you look back through the podcast episode archives, you're going to see our eight plus year commitment with this podcast to just bring on good, good, good people to share their human stories. I know some of y' all might have come for go to market strategy or a how to list to get rich quick or whatever you came for, but you're not going to find that here today. Today is going to be a good conversation from a great leader on how to bring more human centric leadership into your life. We're going to invite you to click that subscribe button and join us along this journey by the end of this podcast. But just know whoever sent you this episode, whatever you had to Google to get here, you're welcome. You matter and you're on the right path. So it's good to see you. Um, today's episode is with an Italian paisano, Paul Mercino. Paul is sitting in Ann Arbor, Michigan right now, but is based in Detroit, Michigan. Shout out the Sovereign family. Shout out Josh Linkner. Shout out Lynn and Isaiah But. Paul is the president and CEO of Butesil. Beutzel is literally coming up on their 175th anniversary. Founded as a commercial litigation practice in 1854, folks. I mean Paul has been admitted to the U.S. supreme Court Bar. He's been recognized as a Cranes 40 under 40, a, uh, Detroit business, 30s in their 30s and, and so much more. He's one of the best law firms. He's one of the best lawyers in America. He's a Michigan Super Lawyer from 2025 and the list goes on and on. He's Italian, he went to a great Catholic school, He fights for the first amendment rights. And he's a man that balances both running fast and hard with hustle now, as well as giving back to the community through a long form charitable trust and honoring the 175 year legacy of um, the company that he now stewards. We're going to be talking about so many amazing human centric things in this podcast. Not too much go to market law firm strategy, but nonetheless, it's good to have everybody here on this podcast. And let's welcome Paul today. Welcome, Paul. Nice to have you.

Speaker A: Thank you, Chris. It's an honor to be here with you.

Speaker C: Now, Paul, we are going to go on a journey today. Very human centric journey. And to kick us off, we always like to ask a very simple question. So, uh, this question we first asked around the dinner table on July 15, 2000 for you and for all the new listeners. I invented a bowl of pasta sauce a long time ago and decided to feed it to my friends to see if it was good or not. And so I hosted a dinner party July 15, 2015. I invited 15 of my friends that didn't know each other over to my home for food. And at that first dinner at 7:47pm, which is a much longer story, but it's now the name of our company, we paused and we asked a very simple question to the dinner table. We went around sharing our stories. The room came alive and we haven't stopped since. And so today I'd like to kick off our podcast with that original question from pasta sauce 11 years ago, Paul, if you could give credit or thanks to one person in your life that you don't give Enough credit or thanks to or that you've never thought to thank?

Speaker A: Who would that be, you say? It's a simple question. It's tough for me because I have so many people I could thank. And I recognize that I'm blessed in that I've had some great mentors guarantee you I do not tell my wife enough how much I love her and how thankful I am for her. So she would be top of my list. My parents, my siblings. I actually talk all the time how we basically won the lottery. Having been born to our parents, we were very blessed, grew up in a loving household. They set us on the right course for life. So I'm certain I don't tell my parents enough how grateful I am for them. My brothers and sisters, friends. I will focus on one, though, so I can actually give you, uh, my wife first, my parents second. There was a professor I had in law, excuse me, in undergrad. And at the time, I was studying business and thought I was going to go out into the business world. And I took a business law class with Professor Delois Leaphart, and I thought, you know, I kind of like this, this law thing. And I was checking it out. At the end of that semester, she put on a mock trial competition where she assigns people roles, some as attorneys, some as witnesses. And you actually put on a little pretend trial. And I won that competition. I enjoyed it. And she came to me and said, well, what do you think about starting a mock trial team that goes around the country competing against other schools? And I said, I'm in. So she. And I founded it. Very literally, though, that changed the course of my life, because that's when I said, okay, I'm going to go to law school, finish law school, here I am. This was over 20 years later. Here I am now running one of the biggest and oldest law firms in Michigan. Because that professor, she could have just kind of checked the boxes and taught what she was supposed to teach, but, uh, she went further than that and opened up a passion in someone. And I also know she's done that with many other people who are now lawyers, too. So, Professor Leaphart, I don't know if you'll ever hear this, but, uh, you literally changed the course of my life, Professor Leaphart.

Speaker C: What do you think it was that, you know, made you open to her believing in you or what was different? Because I imagine she wasn't the first person to believe in you. I imagine that, you know, she had to have done something maybe different, unique, uh, consistent. What do you think that was and

Speaker A: her abilities, I think just how open she was with her time, how giving she was. I mean we used to travel on the weekend and she would, she was not only our coach but she would drive our 12 passenger van down to Indiana, to Minnesota and she had young children at the time. She was sacrificing her time and there's no glory in it for her and she didn't make another dollar out of it. It was simply to give back to others. She used to always like to use the term that sharp steel sharpens steel and iron sharpens iron, you know, but people working together, trying to do excellent things make each other better. So I think it was just amazing how giving she was with her time.

Speaker C: That's pretty cool. When we think of society, when we think back on how we were raised, we always have this like random teacher or some kind of a counselor or some kind of uh, a sports coach or, or someone who's like volunteered their time for the well being of others that didn't get paid for it and it shaped someone's life. Do you think the world still has that or what's got in the way of us wanting to do that for others?

Speaker A: I sure hope the world still has that. It does seem for whatever reason that we're just busier and maybe that's not true. Maybe we're just self centered in that outlook. But everyone's just rushing from one thing to another. It's hard to stop, uh, and smell the roses or you know, reach back and find someone that you can pull along with you. But I definitely know it's still out there. And to give some examples, I had coaches. I used to play baseball and football growing up and I had coaches that devoted ah, time to me. I now get to coach my sons and their friends in little league and flag football and other parents are doing it and refs are doing it and grandpas are doing it. I see it, you know, on ball fields all the time. I had some people, I was the first attorney in my family so I didn't know what I was doing. When I thought about law school, there were some people I was put in touch with who were very generous with their time and met with me and took my phone calls and kind of talked me through things. So I've committed myself that anytime anyone reaches out, uh, even perfect strangers reach out to me on LinkedIn or something and say I'm thinking about going to law school, I'll stop what I'm doing and talk to them. Because someone did that for me and it's not just me. I have colleagues that do the same thing through our charitable trust. We get to work with nonprofits every day who are out there doing this, just trying to make the world a little bit better for people. So it does still exist, for sure. Sometimes we've got to slow down a little bit, recognize it, name it and feel it, but it's still out there.

Speaker C: It's interesting. And what I think such a great answer, what you're saying is the world is a better place than we give it credit credit for. It's out there. You got to slow down to recognize and label it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I tell you what too, not to get on a soapbox here, but I think if people turned off cable news and turned off social media and just looked next door at their neighbors or looked at their co workers or walked down Main street, they'd realize that actually the world's a pretty good place. You know, we get caught up in this sound machine.

Speaker C: I think all of our listeners, essentially what Paul's talking about is that it's statistically, companies statistically make more money feeding us negative news. For every one negative word that you put in a news headline, it increases click through rates. And so there's a big, big money monster that good news is up against. But in our Rolling Stone column, we've been privileged to run a column for Rolling Stone magazine for the last five years. And one of our columns, I believe last year or the year prior was quoting a study, this like 70 year study on human kindness. And long story short, what the study found is that human kindness actually hasn't dropped. It's just that our priority perception of human kindness has dropped. And so maybe we don't need more kind people. Kindness just needs a better pr. We need to see it, label it and recognize it, highlight the good. Amen, I think Hilton Hotel calls it inspecting excellence. It's about focusing less on what's going wrong and elevating more of what's on going, going right. How does that show up in your leadership style?

Speaker A: Well, you just hit on one of my favorite words. And anyone who works at my firm will tell you that I use the word excellence all the time. And that's our bar. That's our goal. We know we're human, so we're not going to always, you know, get it perfect, but we're always shooting for excellence. And that's key. But then I think the next part is important, is just as important. Once we think we've obtained excellence, we then stop and say, okay, how can we do it even better now? So we're never complacent, we're always pushing forward, but not in a, uh, militant way or. I mean, it's fun to go to work when everyone around you is working really hard, striving to do their best. And there's, there's just an energy that comes with it. So if nothing else, I want to instill and maybe create an atmosphere where people know that they can go for it, they can take risks, they can put their best out there, and that the people next to them are going to be doing the same thing. Because then it's a lot of fun. Then it doesn't feel so much like work because it's, you're just continuously improving, continuously doing better, having a lot of fun while you're doing it.

Speaker C: One of the things that you asked is how can we do it better? One of the things that we teach and our listeners, I think you all are familiar with me saying this. For many years we've taught this three part military style debrief that we learned from others, that we learned from Admiral Mike McCabe, but we now teach to others. It's a three part question that all you listeners can use to help things go more.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Number one, you use this as a debrief after anything you do to pursue excellence. Number one, what went well? Number two, what could have gone better? Number three, what are we going to do differently next time? See how that line of questions isn't a negative past problem identifying necessarily. It's future solution oriented.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful. I'm gonna. You know, I always joke that nothing I say is original. I just like stealing from smart people. So I'm gonna borrow that line and use that method.

Speaker C: The first speech I ever gave a long time ago was at the United nations. And I ended my speech by saying history is innovation is just history repeating itself, looking different.

Speaker A: So it's all, you know. Well, uh, you know, another variation we have that's kind of similar to General McCabe's outlook is, and this is also something not original to me, but we call it the aggregation of marginal gains. And what we always say is if you could do everything just 1% better, you don't have to do anything drastically different, drastically better. We're not asking for miracles, but if you could do everything just 1% better and then think of all the things you do throughout the day and then you aggregate up all of those little marginal gains, all of those 1% betters, think of how much further you're going to be ahead. And that's whether it's producing a legal brief or a legal argument or running a business or cleaning your house or being a good father or husband. Just if you could try to do everything continuously date, continuous daily improvement, just getting 1% better. And then if everybody's doing that, watch out, your organization cannot be stopped.

Speaker C: It's a very good concept, the aggregation of marginal gains. It's very familiar, I think, to some of our listeners who have read books by James Clear, specifically called Atomic Habits, uh, where it's about getting 1% better every day. And the cool things for all our listeners, if you guys, if y' all get 1% better every day, you'll be 37 times better within the course of a year just by tiny 1% shifts. But, Paul, can I ask, uh, a polar opposite question, please? At what point do we need to triple check that we're going 1% better in the right direction? Because I think it's never been easier to run fast, fast in the wrong direction. AI has amplified our ability to keep getting better, more efficient, optimized and productive. What kind of checks and balances do you put in to make sure that we're rowing in the right direction?

Speaker A: It's a really good question. It's a nuanced answer, I think, because on one hand, I'm not afraid of running fast after something, experimenting, trying something. Matt Ishbia, who's a, uh, famous entrepreneur here in the Detroit area, he said his business always moves fast because either they get it right and you might as well get there fast, or you get it wrong, you might as well find out sooner rather than later so you can adjust and move another way. So moving fast isn't necessarily a threat or too big of a risk. Obviously within limits and within reason. But I think the safeguard there is just working as a team. I think if you're working as one individual, you're right. You can be lost in the wilderness going the wrong way, maybe even have vertigo and not know it. But if you've got a good team and everyone's kind of rowing in the same direction, and a team that's honest with each other, not in any sort of brutal or critiquing way, but just, you know, in a loving, honest way saying, hey, I'm not sure that's the right thing there, and sometimes the whole team might be wrong, and then you'll find out that's what the market tells you eventually, is that maybe that wasn't the right way to do things. But Taking risks is okay, but doing it within that team framework where people are kind of checking and balancing each other, I think is important.

Speaker C: Are you a fan of Kim Scott's radical candor?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: For all our listeners, what Paul's talking about is when you're working with the team, according to Kim Scott's radical candor, you got to balance being loving and supportive on people as well as really tough on people. And you got to balance, you got to balance in between. If you're too tough on people, it's going to burn them out. If you're too soft on people, you're not going to get the best out of them. And so life is about finding that kind of balance, which is really where you get good things done.

Speaker A: Yep. Coach K, the famous Duke basketball coach, he's retired now, but he talked about that in his huddle. He wanted his guys to be so tight and so close and to frankly love each other so much because they're a team M and a family that one of them could look at the other one and say, you really messed up. And he used a 4, 4 letter word, messed up. You really messed up that play. But they know that the person is saying it from a good place to help the team so that now they're all doing better. And because like in sports and business and whatever you're doing, things move fast, things are, you know, things are flying. So the more you can just kind of be honest, you don't have to be brutally honest, but just the more teams are looking out for each other. And you built that trust to do it. I think it goes a lot ways.

Speaker C: Trust is one of the core values of your company. I believe that there's a three part formula for achieving excellence and gaining wisdom as an organization. The first is just building trust. The second is introducing productive conflict and constructive challenge where you actually use different techniques to get the best out of each other. And then the third is that you co create new behaviors, rituals, rewards, incentives, whatever kind of thing it is based on all of that, that work. And so trust is just the entry point to then kind of like go to war together to get the best out of each other. Does that make sense?

Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. No, I love that. And for us, as with any company or organization, there's different directions that trust might go. It's laterally with the person sitting next to you in the office next to you, your colleague, being able to trust each other, to jump in, have each other's back, things like that. And then outwardly with the client like that our clients have to trust us with their livelihoods, with their companies, sometimes even more. So we're always trying to instill that trust in every direction. Whoever we're interfacing with, it can't just be a uh, select few, it can't just be internally or can't just be externally. Kind of has to be the full package.

Speaker C: What are three things that people can do tomorrow to build a more trustworthy relationship with the people around them? It could be something as simple as talk less, listen more, or it could be give greater gratitude. Or like what are three things that you, you know, kind of have been your go to hallmarks through your career?

Speaker A: Let's see how I do on your pop quiz. But I think communication is huge and that's on so many levels. Just being able to communicate with your team, often openly, honestly, that goes a long ways. It's tough when something's not working out, but people don't say it or someone's just not jiving with whatever's going on, but they bottle it up or in. Same with any relationship you have just communicating. I think I tend to over communicate and sometimes it might be a quick text or an email constantly or talking with my team non stop all day. But communication is a big part to building uh, that trustworthy team. And then I mentioned already within the communication. But honestly, communicating honestly and openly and candidly I think goes a long ways. And then also receiving it, right, you can't just, it's not just about kind of giving the communication or giving the feedback, it's also receiving it, soliciting it and uh, using it to grow.

Speaker C: It's such a beautiful three part framework. I mean communication is really kind of like everything in the world that you know, we'll have left after, after, after we go full AI, communicating human to human will become more important than ever before. But here's the paradox here, here's the challenge. There's a great study that came out by workday called the Workplace Human Connection Index. I've got sticky notes on it, but one of the parts of the study they found is that 86% of employees surveyed have said AI has helped them become more productive. 43% have said AI has freed up time they could use on connection collaboration, team Strategy. But only 28% of people are using that newfound free time for cross functional collaboration networking team strategy. And 33% of employees surveyed rarely or never have conversations with colleagues that go beyond transactional work related tasks. And they prefer having that with AI because it feels judgment Free and it's less socially demanding. Isn't that crazy that we're kind of going there?

Speaker A: Yeah. And when think about kids who are going to grow up, you know, natives in that, that world, I mean, it's AI like so many tools that there's a lot of, uh, amazing good it will do. But like any tool, you can use it for bad, or you can overuse it, or you can use it in ways it's not supposed to be used. So it's going to be an interesting challenge for us as a society, as parents, as leaders, as coaches, as all of us, just how we're going to navigate that. And I don't know that anyone knows what that's going to look like yet.

Speaker C: Well, I'm glad you're thinking about it, and I'm glad you're thinking about your family and I'm glad you're thinking about that next generation. Because ultimately, you know, the way that Dr. Leaphart or Professor Leaphart invested in you for your own future, well, being that they will never be a part of, we listeners, we have to step up and be that for others. It's interesting. A lot of new technology, not just AI, but a lot of new technology, is always built with a youth centric mindset. It's always built to capture what the youth are doing and, and then all the rest of the generations just like, follow those behavioral patterns.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Uh, if the youth liked short form video, now every generation likes short form video. If the youth like clicking like on something, now everybody likes clicking like. And so how do you think, Paul, about the opposite, which is carrying an elder mentor teacher mindset in a world that's built to literally serve what the youth want. Like, how do you balance that?

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: You've got entry level employees, you've got senior partners, you've got a lot of wisdom across multiple generations within a very old firm. How are you balancing that?

Speaker A: Well, we take mentoring and training very seriously. And I should point out too, a lot of that was because our younger associates told us, like, we're craving mentoring, we're craving training. We don't mind coming to the office. It's just we need you here too. So we listened to them and we took that to heart. So we're trying to do more, be a little bit more purposeful about some of our mentoring, some of our training for not only our younger attorneys, but all of our attorneys. I am a, uh, firm believer that to have a shared culture, which I think is important for any organization, you have to have a shared history so we talk a lot about where we've been, about our 100, almost 75 year history, about different things that the firm's been involved with that uh, different attorneys have accomplished throughout their careers. We're actually working now on a history project. We're hoping to write and produce a, uh, 175th anniversary book, like a history book on the firm. It's been really fun digging in and doing some of the research for that, but just, you know, again, communicating. Right. We talk often, we talk in big groups, we talk in small groups. We do, you know, three formal training. We do also just the kind of come pull a chair up to my desk and let me show you what I'm working on here. You know, working in small groups, we do something where once a week text, uh, message gets sent out. Every Tuesday morning, 9:00am everyone, um, in the firm gets a text message. And sometimes it's very practical advice about something that the firm is doing or things that are due coming up, or practical career advice. Sometimes it's just kind of a thought of the day, a philosophy of the day, a question quote from someone that's worth sharing, but just a way for all of us, more remote work. We're spread out, we have nine offices. This is just one small way where at that moment everyone's kind of thinking about the same thing for a moment. So they're communicating, training, mentoring and just being, you know, we all have open doors, literally and figuratively open door policy. I, we have a summer associate who asked to sit down for coffee with me for a half hour. I said of course, let's talk, talk. Let's just talk about your career or whatever's on your mind. So I think it's incumbent on us as sort of the leaders or elders at any organization to pass it down to the next generation.

Speaker C: What you were saying earlier, I was just looking up some stats with my eyes. To all our listeners. I hope you're listening to what your Gen Z and almost Gen Alpha workforce is saying. They actually want to be back in office. They want to be able to show you that they want to learn from you and that they are indispensable. Remember, if you are trying to navigate just solely, just the technical aspects of whatever this AI revolution looks like, and you're not addressing the AI anxiety that comes with it, you're missing a massive, massive human opportunity as a leader to say, I see you, I hear you, and I care about you. Please stay. And Paul, I think you do a wonderful job of being visible and being attentive and being engaged. You're literally calling me from one of your nine offices that you don't normally sit in. It's amazing.

Speaker A: No, I appreciate it. And I've had some great mentors in my day, people I could turn to, walk into their office, call them on the phone. And I also have a great team around me, by the way. I've got an amazing C suite, an amazing board of directors, some of the best attorneys in the state, if not the country. So to work with a team like that, and every single one of them, every single one of us is there for someone else. And, uh, we don't just speak it, we live it, too.

Speaker C: Going back towards the beginning of, uh, our podcast, you were talking about how iron sharpens iron, and you learned that from Professor Leaphart. What is a hard thing that you need to be doing more of that you have either become atrophied from doing or are, uh, consciously avoiding.

Speaker A: Oh, boy. It's really tough just to balance everything for all of us, right? You want to work full time, but you also want to work out, and you also want a family. And, you know, this. This myth of having it all. It's tough. It's really tough. So I think at certain times, I'm leaning more in one direction than another, and. And momentum takes over, and you start leaning more into work than you maybe usually are. And now you're not working out as much as you should be or sometimes, too. And I love when I get the moments I lean into my family and unplug and spend the time with them, and that's one I'll never regret. But then you got to kind of pull yourself back out at the end of the weekend and lean the other direction. So it's just a constant. You know, when you're driving down the road, you're kind of constantly direction shifting or nudging or moving the wheel just a tiny bit. You kind of, kind of have to do the same thing with your own life. When you find yourself leaning too much in one direction, pull it back towards the center a little bit and just find that balance.

Speaker C: Balance is tough. I certainly don't know the answer.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, maybe balance isn't even the right word. You know, Jeff Bezos says work, life, balance isn't a thing. Does that. That kind of presupposes that one takes away from the other, or as you push on one, it. It lifts, it pushes down on the other or something like that. He calls it work life harmony. And he says, you know what? I love work I love going to the office. I love being in meetings and cranking out new strategy. And that makes me a better father, husband, friend. But I also love unplugging, uh, and just being with my family and being. Doing my personal stuff. But then that gives me the energy to go back to work and dive in. So he refers as the work, life, harmony. And maybe that's what we're always kind of striving for.

Speaker C: I think it's interesting, and Jack and I will have to do research on this philosophy, but what it sounds like you're saying is that life shouldn't be 40% here, 20% there, 51% there. It should be do it 51% there, so you can do it. 51% over there, so you can do it. 51%. I mean, not the right numbers, but it's. It. The sum isn't 100.

Speaker A: That's right. I think that's right.

Speaker C: The sum of balance would be 100, but the sum of harmony sounds like more than 100, which is a good thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's right.

Speaker C: You know. Well, Paul, I want to start, you know, landing this ship and honoring your time. You talked about what you loved about Professor Locke Leaphart was that you did mock trials, and you learned the craft of being a trial attorney, and that really shifted your whole outlook on life. What can the world learn from trial attorneys about respectful dissonance, disagreement, dissent? We have low emotion regulation, low distress tolerance in America right now. I think trial attorneys, in order to be really excellent, really service oriented, you got to learn how to navigate those disagreements, you know, respectfully. How do you do that? I mean, you even defend that when you defend First Amendment litigation. But, like, how do you do that?

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think there's this misconception because of TV shows or movies or whatever, that lawyers are just screaming at each other. Whoever yells the loudest or pounds the table wins. Or, uh, that's just. It's very rare in real life. And those are the people who usually aren't the most successful. First of all, you have to convince other people of something. So you have to take the facts as they are and convince, whether it's a jury or the judge, to see it your way. So you kind of got to put your ego aside, put your preconceptions aside, and find where do we have that middle ground where we can. Maybe you'll agree with me, maybe you won't, but at least you'll see where I'm coming from. And then, obviously, the end goal is to get them to agree with you. So I think that's a big part of it, just working. It's no different, really, than working together, than trying to reach a common goal. It's a lot less. People think of it as a boxing fight or boxing match or something like that. It's much more collaboration, just getting a jury to come along with you, getting the judge to come along with you. So that's a big part of it. But you can also, you can be a zealous advocate, you can be a zealous competitor and still do it professionally and still do it like a gentleman or a lady. And I actually have some very good friends who I met. They were opposing counsel and the case was over or if it settled or whatever the case happened. We stayed in touch afterwards, and then we realized we had a lot in common and became friends. Because you shouldn't have to finish each litigation matter hating the other side or thinking they're the worst. You can do it the right way. And this is something I. I'm actually going to be doing some training with our summer associates later this summer, just about the practice of law, the ethical practice of law, but also the professional practice of law. Like, you can do it in a way such that people still respect you, still trust you, even though you're both trying to beat the other. That's how it's done at its best, and that's how it's, um, done. Right. And I think just in general, in the world, whatever your walk of life, whatever your occupation is, you're trying to beat someone, you're trying to win, you're trying to make a dollar. But you can do it professionally. And these days, again, you're not going to find it all, all that much on social media or cable news or things like that. But in. In your everyday life, it's more about just doing it the right way so that you can be proud of it when you're done.

Speaker C: Folks, there's a line in, uh, the first play I ever produced in New York City, which opened on Tuesday, October 23, 2012, about Fiorello LaGuardia, the former mayor of New York City. And in the play, we say to the audience, I know you turn your lights off when you leave your home, do it when you leave your hotel room. You are who you are when nobody is watching. And that's integrity. And what Paul is talking about is negotiating based on integrity. I want to pull up three books in closing that remind me of how you just closed out that part. So what Paul was just saying about trial attorneys, about, you know, convincing others of what we think.

Speaker A: Think.

Speaker C: I really summarize what you said as putting the ego aside, finding the middle ground, turning enemies into friends and doing it professionally. And I think that if we approach anything in life in that way, we will become successful at it. There's four great books, I think, that encapsulate some of that way of thinking. One is called. Is, uh, called Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday. It's a book that essentially says that, well, ego is the enemy and he uses ancient stoicism to back it up.

Speaker A: So, Chris, this past Sunday was Father's Day. My wife and kids just got me tickets to go see Ryan Holiday talk. He's going to be here in Detroit, so.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: Yeah. Good timing.

Speaker C: Have you read all the books or any of the books?

Speaker A: Most of all, many of them, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Have you gone back to the old source material like the Marcus Seneca? It's.

Speaker A: Yeah, I need to dig deeper. I've definitely read Meditations, Seneca, a few others. I mean, I'm not a scholar on it by any means.

Speaker C: No, this is cool. Oh, you're gonna love it. You're gonna love them. Um, folks that are listening, I think, um, at this point in human history, our egos have accidentally become bigger than ever before. Um, scientists are calling it AI Psychosis. The more you use AI, the more it convinces you you are God and everything you put into it is right. And therefore our egos and social media likes and comments have inflated more than ever before. And so Paul's saying that success can be found by putting the ego aside and getting humble about it and uh, you know, trying to find the middle ground. Steven Pressfield's War of Art is a great book on turning pro. This is a book that says that if you want to break through the blocks and win your inner creative battles and bring great work forth to the world, like a book about the 175 year anniversary of your company. You must break through capital R resistance that lies in each of us and then break through to tap into this like higher power capital S self or creativity and, and innovation and everything comes from. But in order to do so, you gotta stop being an amateur and start being a professional. And amateur lawyers that you see on the television scream and yell to get their way. Professionals disagree without disconnecting. The third book is Never Split. The how to Negotiate as if youf Life Depends on it by Chris Voss, which is really about essentially convincing others of your way by using something called Tactical Empathy to Make them feel seen and heard so that then they care to listen to you. We teach a couple of his core skills in our inquisitive empathy workshops, mirroring, labeling and asking open ended calibrated questions. So you can do that to turn enemies into friends. And finally, the most referred book of all time by me, the Anatomy of Peace, which is a big conflict resolution bestseller for decades, which is about looking at the part that we play in solving conflict with other before we go out and solve the conflict with them. So I think Paul's themes and theories for life reminded me of those four very tactical books. And if you like those books, from listening to this podcast, you're going to like how Paul leads. Paul, if Professor Leaphart, first of all, anything to add or challenge in what I just said there?

Speaker A: No. No. And I mean, um, I'm in good company. That's just because I've, I've learned a lot from many of those books and similar people. So I think we're all kind of, we're a product of what we consume. And all the more reason to consume good, uplifting, positive stuff like the 175th year book. Uh, coming soon.

Speaker C: Coming soon. Paul, if Professor Leaphart was on this podcast right now, what would you say to her?

Speaker A: Just say thank you. Thank you for being who you are. And again, I know it wasn't, it wasn't anything special about me, and I know she's done, acted and served in the same role for many other people. So thanks for doing it, thanks for continuing to do it, and thanks for teaching a young dumb kid about selflessness.

Speaker C: Cheers, Professor Leaphart. Paul, any last words in closing?

Speaker A: No, I just, I have a lot to be grateful for. I know I'm lucky. Amazing wife, amazing kids, amazing job, get to be on cool shows like this. So I'm very blessed, very lucky, and I was happy to come on here and chat with you, Chris.

Speaker C: Well, thank you for making the time. As we always say, you know, luck is where. Well, we don't say it, but an old person once said, luck is where preparation meets opportunity. And you've certainly put in the work, you know, and for that we can be grateful. And all the people that you serve can be grateful. So thank you for sharing your time with us, folks. I hope you enjoyed this podcast episode. We ran the full gamut. But essentially, I think to summarize the episode, you know, life is about achieving excellence. Life is about doing big things together that do good for our world. But in order to do that, you're going to have to overcome the natural tendency for humans to pretend we're busier, more self centered, and more selfish than ever before in human history. And you got to remember that the world is good and that you have good things inside of you. There are good people around you, and you're worthy of bringing goodness into our world. And if you remember that, you'll do some pretty amazing things with others. Set the ego aside, find the middle ground, turn enemies into friends, and do it as a professional. And if you can do that, your company might just be here 175 years from now. To all the loyal listeners of the podcast, it's good to see you, old friend. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on today's episode, especially all you Detroit listeners. To the new friends. Hey folks, I don't know what you thought you'd find, but I think you found the right thing. A human heart telling a good human story, reminding you that the way you're doing it matters. Stay the path. Thank the person that sent you this episode, click that subscribe button, and we'll see you on another episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times. Hope you're having a phenomenal day on Earth, folks. Remember, it's your world. Go explore.