Leaving Deloitte to Build A Tech Startup

There's a concept when I remember people becoming partners at Deloitte and being like, oh my god, you made it in your career and they're like, no, once you hit partner, you actually realize you're just another baby. You're now a baby partner. So sometimes in the morning, I'll be just getting ready and I'll just put it on and be like, all right, we got to boost my confidence. Let's go.

Tell me all amazing things about me. What if you programmed it to say it? I don't know, it just says that you're creating an influential product and you're on the right path. So real, real proper, like, yeah, you should get it to play music at the same time.

Yeah, my husband asked why is it a man? I was like, because I wanted to be a man, you know, some media came out about it. It was all really exciting and then I, people are still congratulating me and I kind of was like, oh yeah, I don't know. I gotta get back to work.

I gotta, I gotta make money. I was just like this. And I thought it would be this life-changing moment. I've got this plaque.

It's really cool. It's like a thing no one will ever be able to take away from me, but you still get it and you're like the next one. My whole family and everyone looks forward to my New Year's event because every New Year's, everyone who comes gets to plan their family goals and strategy sessions. So the beginning of the day started.

You have a strategy session on New Year's Eve. Yep. It's your resolution strategy day. So I set up the wall with everyone's names across the top, including the kids.

And then along the side is like the next three month, six month, 12 month. How do you kids? Three and six. Oh, probably a good idea.

But there's never a time when there's not a bottle of fireball in my house. That's for such an occasion that might need to celebrate something. Or when the kids are really horrible. Brittany, welcome to the show.

We've been trying to get you on what? Five times we've had to risk it. You're partly you and mostly me, I think. Probably more me.

I'm glad to finally have you here. And I'm super excited to talk about the last two years because you've gone from there to in such a short space of time. And it's it's just a cool story. So I'm looking forward to exploring it with you and finding out where you're going to.

So for the audience, introduce yourself and tell us your name of your business and what it is that you do right now. Brit Fox, my company is Nevem, which is a made up word. I love made up words. Yeah.

It's Maven backwards Maven being a connoisseur connector from Malcolm Gladwell's book, The Tipping Point, Loved the Word, named my daughter and Maven. Did you? Yeah. I thought it was like, where are you going to find this name?

I thought it was so cool. It's actually a very cool girl name. You could use it for boys well, I suppose. Yeah.

I think there's only one other person named Maven. And so when I was looking at SEO and trying to find a thing, I was like, well, I'm the back end of your connections. That's the vision that I thought about it. So I named it Nevem.

And today we are living journey maps for marketers. And tomorrow, a digital twin for all of customer experience. Oh, I always liked the concept of your business when you first pitched it. So why don't we talk about that?

But before actually, before we talk about how we met, which we've just refreshed on, because we couldn't remember. A lot happens in 18 months. It's crazy. What were you doing before you started?

Obviously you were working in marketing. But what were you doing just before you started this business? And what made you leave to go and do this? What was the trigger point?

I was consulting at Deloitte. Yeah. My job at Deloitte was being this kind of conduit SME of customer experience and marketing. Specifically, my strength was auditing detailed experiences that were very complex across really large ecosystems and being the bridge that could see how it would become the customer experience and then how that would transfer into the data and technical requirements that the development teams would need to build that future state experience.

So I kind of sat as enterprises, customer custodian that would make their blue sky vision come to life technically. We need to go into this deeper because I did not understand that. I know. So it's hard.

So you, so Deloitte were building solutions. That was the end game, right? Was to sell them as the consulting to build a solution to solve a problem? Mostly the clients had probably bought a tech, right?

Or they were about to buy a tech. Like CRM or Mar tech solutions. So like and sell for us Adobe E-brays. Okay.

So they bought that and they wanted to work out how to use it to give their customer journey the maximum amount of, I don't know, is that right? Or is it more about acquisition or it was pretty much a digital transformation so that they were in siloed teams and marketing had become bigger and bigger. Their data was pretty messy because they had been kind of bolting on new tech as we went. And so when you put it and then it would be really hard because they would go to RFP and they'd buy a new tech and they would be scoped to just kind of lift and shift the current experience.

And then they'd spend millions of dollars lifting and shifting what they already had into a new beautiful tech stack. And so I would kind of be the person who would go, hold on, let's just see what you have everywhere. Where do you want to be? And let's actually bring those in as the requirements so that you're not lifting and shifting, you're growing.

And then I kind of started to implement more of like an optimization flywheel framework within these organizations. So it wasn't these huge digital transformations that never and that like had an endpoint, but they weren't always on iterative. Got it. Okay.

That makes much more sense. So what makes you want to leave a job like that? Because that would be interesting, right? I mean, one of the good things about consulting is there's client to client to client.

I know there's the the classic consultant line is I want to leave consulting because I never get to see the results of my work because we leave after we've done the job, which I guess is for Australian. But when you didn't do that, you left to start your own thing. So what drives you to want to do that when you're pretty, I would imagine in gross, I mean, it's pretty full on consulting, right? So when you're in these projects, you're in these projects, I would imagine there's a lot of head space.

What makes you leave delight to go and do that? Mostly that I was watching really amazing IP and good work die because it was living across so many different teams and systems that I wanted to enable the clients to not always need us to come and do every consultant project pretty much starts with discovery, which means that you have to send me everything and I have to get my head wrapped around you and you spend several hundred thousand dollars on me doing that before I can even go.

And then I'm going to send you a recommendation and then we're going to talk about that for a really long time and it's going to create this program of work. And then we have, and it's like, it's exhausting even me telling you. Just in these, particularly when you say really long time, these are years, like these are projects that last months to years. And and I was just like, there's got to be a better way and especially when I would get in a project that I would audit the experience and I'd have to use something like a mirror board or wrap an entire room in point one font journey maps and screen grabs of pages and try to tell them like an order to do this.

You have 30 steps you have to get done. And it's it was I just wanted to enable these big enterprises that were in their own way. And the consulting business model was and I think it's shifting now. I'm seeing a lot of media about how they're shifting their approach.

But when I was there, it was very like product driven partnership driven. They'd buy the tech and then the SMEs would just come and implement that tech and you're kind of looking like this. You're only looking at the thing that you're fixing rather than how do we actually make this work better for the customer. It was more about the financial revenue they're going to make.

And I saw a better way where I was I was doing a repeatable process over and over and over again and for different use cases. So it could be I'm coming to talk to your business about how we're going to implement personalization across your experience. I'm coming to your thing your business to talk about how we're going to implement a CDP which will now enable the marketing team to use audiences across all of your media channels. It doesn't matter the use case.

I kind of created the same framework over and over and over again and it felt ridiculous. I guess it would also get I mean I can see I can almost hear the frustration in your voice now talking about it. But I guess it would just be so boring to some degree because you're going okay here we go again. Same thing.

And even when you've done it so many times you know exactly what to look for. You know exactly I can find insights in a client within 30 seconds. I could you know I could secret shop anybody and find 30 opportunities. I was just becoming a farmer.

So question then do you padded out when you're working when you've got that job down so well what might have taken you X amount of time because consultants typically bill on hours worked right that you've got down the delight when you to continue to spend this amount of time what do you just bill people less did you become less profitable because you were more efficient. How did that work? I was wondering that. It didn't matter actually because the time it took to audit these experiences still took the same amount of time because I was screen grabbing doing the the thinking between that and then that would create a scope which then I'd have to put into post-its and then into spreadsheets and then explain it and give all the context on it and I had a system but it didn't make me faster.

It just made it systemized. Yeah okay and that's when you went I could build something to do this. Yeah I was like how can I how do I automate this first of all. I don't want to keep having to go to the website and screen grab it to make sure I've got the most recent content because the second one of those line items gets actioned the entire experience now is different.

Do you have to go again? Do again. Yeah that would drive you nuts. Yeah and there are people whose job is that?

Wow. So you thought I had started my own business I'm going to so you tell you decided to build your system into a piece of tech. Is that right? It kind of happened where I was visualizing it for the probably the last decade thinking so I was working at Gap and I was running big.

Can you tell me that when I first met you said I've been thinking about this for 10 years? Yeah I just thought it existed. I was working at Gap. I was running the Gap casting call across the country and I was doing it all by myself and I was trying to I just couldn't figure out what I was missing and I was freaking out that I was missing something and then I went to children's cancer institute doing more campaigns.

I felt like I didn't have anywhere where I was like okay it's everything good and then I I got an opportunity with Deloitte I had to Google Deloitte honestly I had to coffee with the partner and I didn't I was like this is Deloitte good like I was so naive Deloitte didn't know Deloitte. I'm from a very small town and I had no ambition to A live in a big city or B work for a big company. Okay where are you from exactly which small town Ashland Oregon and they don't have Deloitte there obviously but they've never heard of Deloitte that's so I don't think that's and you're like in your what I'm sure it was big like I assumed it was 30s 20s 20s 20s I think no the 30th like right before I turned 30 I mean like I 'm sure I've heard of it but I didn't really know it was that's incredible but I had to Google like what they actually did because I got what I think a lot of people would ask that question well I don't think a lot of people know what Deloitte do I mean consulting you don't really know it consulting is you know anyways I got I got I got so how did you get the interview you just rang the partner I got referred to have a coffee meeting for mentorship okay and I met with one of the partners we had a coffee it went for over an hour and then I went on my merry way and he he said I want you to meet my business partner went and had another coffee and then they said I think I think you should come work for us and so I sent them my resume and then I just ended up in the job like process I met another partner and then I started and I don't know and then then we did the first grad intake and I was like oh this is actually really hard to get into for other people you just broke like a hundred people's hearts how easily you just breezed into the lasso any people trying to get into Deloitte yeah maybe my naive it's naive to whatever that word is helped me because I just talked to them about my pain points of being a marketer and where I wanted to stitch things together and I was having a hard time and did it and I wanted mentorship into the next role because I wanted to not have someone constantly talking about politics with me I wanted to elevate myself to own the end-to-end customer experience and I and when they would they were asking very pointed questions now on reflection about my experience with sales force and my experience like designing campaigns and I thought they were just trying to understand what I had gaps in and then they were they're like I think you can come in and help us do you think they always had that intention or do you think like met you into a hold on or do you think like saw your resume and said yeah well then to her maybe we can hire you might have been exactly what they were after maybe what evidently were maybe I mean I just thought at the time I was thinking oh like gap and children's cancer into I mean there's a confidence thing right there I and I had been told by my bosses like sit in the chair do your work I was stepping outside and I was pretty low on confidence hmm so I actually did not think that I would be at that level ever but I look at me now well now I feel like I'm just at the bottom of the trenches and this is uh that's not true well there's there's a there's a concept when I remember people becoming partners at Deloitte and being like oh my god you've made it in your career and they're like no once you hit partner you actually realize you're just another baby you're now a baby partner and you've got another level to go there's always another level right they always say there's always someone better at whatever it is you're doing there's always someone most successful which whatever it is you want there's always someone always on and that's so true and then you jump in and you feel like you're back at being a baby again especially when you're talking to other founders who are even just a year ahead in experience it's the years of experience that and the like types of experience because you can't fast track the founder experience no it's you have to go through it it's like having a child right it's impossible to explain it you cannot articulate what it feels like and you meet another founder who's in the beginning of the journey you're like okay that's where you are okay cool now I know what it was like when someone had a coffee with me and how I was asking these questions because I was at that stage of being on the journey but you left Deloitte to start a business that's not a low confidence position well I had a safety net I actually started it what was on maternity leave and so I met you we still on that level you know I had so I had my second daughter in March 2023 and I a bunch of redundancies were happening around Deloitte and a bunch of businesses around the December time of that year and my boss said I needed to make a decision I had been pretty transparent that I I had this idea and before I even went on maternity leave I was kind of tinkering around with it with him and getting his ideas and thoughts on it and he was like I think it has legs and if you want to take maternity leave go and think about it and I'll back you and so I'm maternity leave that's when I was doing the process wasn't like taking any money in or anything like that just researching doing lots of interviews going to start up events just like figuring out how to do it yeah and so in December when all the redundancies were kind of hopping I had to make a decision and I just was like okay I'm going all in and my husband and I were like all right we made some big savings accounts like pulled some money from selling our house and yeah and put that in as like a fake a fake salary for me for the year to go so we weren't like stressed but more about like okay this is your job for the next year is to make don't I had a year runway and then you came to stride to do the pitch I had no idea when we course I think it was was it 10 weeks yeah and I just didn't understand the investment process at all and I was trying to find out anyway possible to figure it out I thought stride was good in the explanation I think they got an interesting group of mentors to do the explanation and obviously you said you didn't had a pitch which I also it probably wasn't true because you pitched yourself as a Deloitte consultant every time you went into a client but yeah and then we we started doing pitch lessons together and you stood in our old studio and pitched in front of the camera and the green screen and all that stuff that was did you find that process useful like the actual stride program the stride program I think I still had a gap between understanding I thought maybe there was some basics that I didn't still have so it was going straight into financial models and I still didn't understand how to start or where to go from those sessions so I found those a bit difficult I think the most value I got out of where those pitching sessions in front of a camera watching myself again and even when you kind of were like you've pitched but you've missed these three key points and you kind of went through my script with me and I realized and even when Maria was like you walk in and you've immediately lost my attention because you've introduced yourself we're pretty brutal in those sessions oh but I love it yeah how do I enjoy I enjoyed doing those sessions actually everybody improved so much and then you went to textiles right yeah and that probably gave you the bits that you missed I would imagine because it's obviously a much stronger proven program been around for a long time did that and that did you get your raise your money at the end of textiles or was that later it was later wasn't a couple months later so it was actually so I went to sunrise and I met the going this year it's it a few weeks yeah yeah I'll be there yeah so I had been introduced to brand fund part of ice house ventures and so I met them in person at sunrise last year and then I had my investment committee a week later and closed my round 13 days later cool yeah and so it talks to me about the production where it's at right now and what exactly what it does it's so cool that's a great that's it what does it leave it at night it's just so cool I'm so excited we've been demoing I've been demoing like five hours a day with some of the biggest enterprises in Australia right now because we actually just did apprapella I don't know if you've heard the apprapella is I have not oh it's so cool so hold on tangent really quickly I love tangent apprapella is a not-for-profit that supports female founders selling into enterprises and rather than you pitch would be hard yeah selling into enterprises hard anyway yeah so this was created as a place where they vet the women based on their scalability and the product and then you get an opportunity to pitch in front of an entire room of execs who are super connectors so it's a last month I pitched I got I got accepted before Christmas I pitched in Melbourne a couple weeks ago and got 72 referrals into my ICP enterprise connections that's huge massive that is incredible I'm gonna look this up that's that's amazing it is such a big supercharger for female founders it's amazing and the community within it is the second one so Kate and I don't know why I'm breaking in and I can look up right now but we'll just call a Kate Kate but she's she's a CEO I know I'm gonna look that up that I mean that there's so many things to connect people female founders this loads of stuff right as we you and I know but most I feel a lot of it's very ineffective that 72 connections is not ineffective that's absolutely insane no I'm meeting with CMOs of NAB Bupa MediBank that's wild pet barn like everywhere that I wanted to get into I am getting demos and meetings and they are giving me their time because they want to see the the ecosystem and how to drive what's the what's the initial we know they always take time right it always take time but the initial responses that I'm getting second third meetings and good and yeah and so we've we've kind of gone through the whole list of everyone and that took a couple weeks to get things in the diaries still having first meetings with some of them and then I've had first meetings and now I'm having second meetings so like right after this I'm going to meet with three different enterprises after this so like for my first meetings with them that I got from that so I'm excited yeah I mean 72 that's a lot I mean that's a good three months demos right god yeah it's a lot of demos and it's a but it's like discovery it's getting the introduction to the right person it's kind of pitching yourself over again and but it's so much practice oh my god yeah because I'm not cold emailing I'm not asking for someone it's like this is a vetted you're rolling in at the top as well you're not meeting the marketing manager who's five steps below the CMO and it's gonna you know you have to do that level selling you're right there yeah what an incredible program yeah it's amazing so that's my plug for apropelah it's very well known for female founders because it is like the best way to get yourself in front of enterprises and you walk into a warm room yeah because the the process actually is you pitch for seven minutes you give an entire like product overview like an investor meeting but then they break you into breakout rooms so then I go into a room and then everyone puts up their number bids who they're gonna introduce you to and they put the name and the company on their record and so then that goes into a master spreadsheet so you walk into three rooms and people are and people are bidding like all introduced you to the CMO blah blah and you're like thank you and so you sit in this room you're just so like my god overwhelmed with the thought and then you meet and you network afterwards and people are like I'll introduce it to this and then they just keep flowing and I want to film this process it's amazing yeah it sounds it sounds fascinating yeah how I know ahead of that in two busy in the last couple of years yeah um so back to the products um we have built some custom crawlers so we call we crawl a brand's website and that pulls off their site map a screen grab of every single website page and then we have a custom app crawler so basically exactly what you used to do yeah build a app crawler yeah uh we synced into meta so we have Instagram and Facebook and then now we're building emails um APIs and then we have direct integrations with Google and Adobe so then when you pull the cards in with the website pages we can also sync their analytics to it um and so that builds your channel library so it's kind of like your asset library that's the most up-to-date and then we've made the canvas like a mirror board so then you can just drag any experience you want build sections around it and then it automatically syncs up the cards with each other because it crawls all the URLs and the destinations so then if I drag a card in and then I drag and I'm like okay if I'm designing your experience and I land on your website and I want someone to book a call or whatever I brought I dragged in that card and I dragged in the next card it will automatically go yep these ones that's the path and then it'll also show me all the alternative paths that I could take based on the CTS I know don't you I do yeah so then so then in big enterprises where they're all building their own journey maps for their own product or their own segment or their own tech they can create their own canvas but every card that's ever been created across any of their canvases even manually one sync and so I don't lose the context we're all using the same cards and then the the layer underneath that is if I have something that I find as a friction or I want an uplift in I can add that insight to the experience and then that can create its own scope of work that I can prioritize and I can add backlog tickets to of like what we're going to do and those backlog tickets sync right into JIRA so then I can watch and see how the development team is working on that and then that insight and backlog and all that work and all that project management stays synced to that card so then if I drag that card in and I'm like that is a freaking problem I can see it's like oh someone's already working on it and this is how it's going I don't have to go down email rabbit holes in it yeah or slack or water or any of the other thousands or presented in a PowerPoint that dies like I'm so sick of power I love that I do no one knows PowerPoint no one no one I mean you know if there's a PowerPoint when you're walking to a meeting you're like it's going to be longer than I thought this meeting yeah yeah so like that's what it is today um we're automating all the journey mapping now so imagine just being able to we're designing it and building it right now as I imagine just putting it in a prompt and going I want to design the journey for someone who comes on my website and wants a book a podcast and then it kind of looks at the cards and the CTA's on your website looks at the analytics and starts to recommend the cards that you should do to kind of build your journeys yeah and then the kind of ROI on that that we've found is um big enterprises they always look for the opportunity but we're thinking about the cost of not taking the opportunity so we're actually tracking from inside action how long it takes you to act on that and fix the friction that's found so that um you can actually figure out how much it's costing you to how much opportunity you're losing yeah I mean some of those sites are awful yeah you just go you know what I just don't I just don't want it this much whatever it is I want it I really don't want this much yeah and everyone's been in this kind of accidental cycle of reacquiring the same customer but the customer comes back thinking the experience is going to be different and it's not so like the media teams they're always they're they're adopting the coolest tools they're doing the coolest stuff but it does not mean a damn thing if they land on if your website can't convert a cold lead yeah which most of them can that's terrible yeah and so how many people you've got in the team now we've got five here in Australia plus two interns and then 10 developers so tell me it was you and I met you you've now got this team you're pitching to 70 enterprise clients big change in two years what's been the hardest thing and what's been the easiest thing on that journey because there's always something that you go and now let me rephrase that what's the hardest thing that you weren't expecting to be hard because you're probably say capitalizing because everyone was says capitalizing but what's been so much easier that you thought was going to be hard so what's flipped you know because there's always surprises is a founder I actually thought capital raising was going to be way harder but there you go but yeah I still sometimes think I flipped it I don't know how I did now look you won the enterprise customers the that's the flavor of the month right but two you've got a product that but it works and that absolutely I mean it reduces the friction of what your job was I know the job is to reduce the friction of their customers but you you fast track something you made it simple and you don't have to go and spend millions of dollars of delight yeah but then the initial feedback when I was in tech stars was how are you going to build a better mode how are you going to build this to replace yourself how are you going to build this and there was a lot of feedback that really like shocked me but then the investors shocked you in that you hadn't thought of it or shocked you was in it was aggressive or shocked me that they didn't get it okay but then the guys who did come on board it was like one demo and they were like I get it and it was not a hard sell and it was the most seamless easy process I actually thought I was a bit I was like there's something I'm missing yeah it's terrifying when things work I think it's gonna fall apart it's gonna fall apart I'm sorry Vinny works I'm absolutely petrified it was not working at least I got a target of how to fix it right I've got something to focus on if it's working you kind of like um yeah so you definitely didn't fluke it that's for sure so all right well let's go cabal raising was easier what was harder that you thought probably wasn't or just just completely blew your way on the complexity and it can it doesn't have to be a physical thing it could be the mental joys of up and down and so founder or whatever it doesn't matter the there was a couple things probably one about um I heard being a founder was lonely what I hadn't anticipated was that there is this like perception that even the smallest conversations can turn someone's perception of you and so there's there's you have to have unrelenting confidence even in give me an example of that that's a really interesting line so what do you mean that you could say slightly the wrong thing and they'll lose confidence in you as a founder is that you mean yeah down to your team down to investors down to like some of your friends who might meet an investor or um networks that you're in um even your family so don't let your family and friends meet investors it's just really hard to there's like your circle of transparency and like I'm feeling really fucking stressed all right I did cuss there you go night I can really it's all okay um and said the word cuss which is even better what do you call it swear word um the the circle of who you're gonna totally break down to become smaller I don't know if I've been a founder for like I don't know 25 years or something stupid I don't think there's anyone you ever really let know how you're feeling um anyone I mean there's very few people you let know how you're feeling you know at all but there's even even the small circles I don't think you ever let anyone know because it's horrible if anyone else to know that yeah chat you be too probably knows more oh yeah yeah well I've just moved to Claude have you I'm about to I've been yeah it's it's been happening it's no no it's it's really I did it on the weekend I know it's time thing right yeah so I've downloaded everything from chat GPT put it in Claude and then I said to Claude right you and I need to get to know each other I'm gonna do you an hour yeah and it's much more engaging my master prompt that I have in there is pretty brutal like I want it to be almost nasty to me because I don't want it to challenge everything I heard it has the new at the community where you can now yeah rather than it being biased you can be like ask the advisors or something and it makes five advisors five different yeah I haven't tried that but I mean you know but you can backfire you like I've said to it you know I want it to it knows all my goals and things right and I said to you know if I'm because I come up with ideas all the time and I get distracted very easily and I've said to it you know if I come up with something just ask me is that actually gonna help me achieve my goals now that's a great thing to do right but then it takes it too far because if you use it for something I guess that you probably shouldn't use it for like can you tell me who invented tomato ketchup or something like that right you know you google things you we tend to use AI for those things now it now will say before I answer that is this helping you achieve your goal and I'm like no this is not that one of those things it's different and it's just taking everything so far so now I just feel like I'm wasting my time all the time because I'm every time I ask it's like no but I don't want to it's like 10 o'clock at night I don't want to achieve my goals now I want to have a break so you've got to be careful what you did it's I I love that I'm going to use that as a prompt yeah I've said I said do not panda my ego be brutal question everything you know really really like you know be the nasty person in my life yeah taking it very literally obviously because that's what it's designed to do but yeah it knocks your confidence a bit sometimes get the wrong khaki that's rude I actually use it to boost my confidence because I think women just get this natural thing where we kind of kill ourselves and just assume assume at the worst absolutely drives me insane so sometimes in the morning I'll be just getting ready and I was put it on all right we got to boost my confidence let's go tell me all amazing things about me what what have you programmed it to say I don't know it just says that you're creating a influential product and you're on the right path so real real proper like yeah like you should get it to play music at the same time yeah my husband asked why is it a man I was like because I want it to be a man be a man yeah because you're not no don't say that Tim why was I first I made a joke I was like well because it's my bitch do you talk to it a lot as opposed to I forget which voice I had on chat GPT I couldn't decide I didn't like any of them no I talked to it and I talked to my husband my husband at the end of the day I he calls it downloading the cloud because he can literally see me like replaying everything that's like in my head and then he can kind of see me kind of like boot down need to go to sleep as soon as I've done it I find that it's really hard to I have to I created a time when I switch off because otherwise and I can be snappy if some like my wife or kids are asking me something that is just to me mundane at that moment because I'm in the middle of something I've tried really hard not to be that person better it is hard because you do you you're completely engrossed in it yeah I've that is probably one of the hardest things is you don't know how to switch off that I didn't realize I thought I could compartment what are you doing I know you can't I always thought that so what do you do how do you do it now um I have to tell you how I do it yeah tell me no no I want to hear you go first because you might just copy I have to I have to I have to physically go and change my clothes oh really yeah I read about this interesting you change your clothes you change like your psychology of where you're at physically and mentally so I go and change my clothes because I'm now off work and then my phone goes into um sleep mode or like non-work mode so those notifications don't come through anymore and there is like a pretty strict time of I'm now not available no one's dying yeah I watch really bad television oh my god so okay well he told you we're gonna copy me no but that's like what I do on the train like on the train right home yeah okay I'll watch oh my god the sister of Mormon wives I don't watch trash TV the Mormon wives I did not know there was a shank of Mormon has me by grip hope um otherwise I've never watched a reality TV show in my life but yes trash TV sorry yeah I mean I watch bad movies um I just find that they just switch me off but it's funny you say the clothes thing because I do a lot of work on the weekends and when I work I don't wear my watch on the weekends um and if I'm working I put my watch on yeah it kind of switches me into work but so I'll sit down at my dining table put my watch on yeah work and then take it off again and my wife says I watch on it's just it's a it's a mental thing it's just kind of because it's metal and heavy and you can feel it I don't know yeah my other secret is that if I'm having a hard time oh so I started learning Swedish this year why Swedish it's not that common in the world pretty much just Sweden yeah yeah I don't imagine it's easy no um what's the reason I met a Swedish girl when I was backpacking ages ago we've stayed we've stayed friends she asked me to be in her wedding I went to her wedding last June and then her now husband works at an agency in Sweden and they are now a client and so okay this makes sense now so now I go to these monthly whips with them and their clients and everything they've put in the platform is Swedish and they speak in Swedish and I have to and I have to have German or Swedish subtitles on my calls and so I took that as I'm gonna start learning at least some Swedish how's it going um so I do doling go every night and because I'm doing it every night before I go to bed it's like two to three minutes two three minutes little thing no god no but it's like gobbly gooke and so then you've done three minutes you've switched your brain to something that was completely a different side of the brain and then you go to sleep and there's nothing in there which is empty because you're not rotating how's it going there I ask is I've always thought about learning a language I'm not good with languages I'm very dyslexic so that seems to have inhibited my ability that's the excuse I tell myself could have nothing to do with it but let's just run with it but have you found it um I probably can do all the like the matching words things but if you asked me to say something I could probably only say fat ton for water okay well I wouldn't know as single Swedish words you could say anything yeah well try being at a Swedish wedding where everyone's speaking everyone and they're not like the chef from the Muppets right they don't all jump up and down and Swedish weddings are really cool by the way you should look them up on YouTube just tell me um they go for um they don't have time they go for like 12 hours oh really they were in like it was insane they had a toast master they had this whole like on tarage of events and things and the speeches and the gifts and it was so elaborate and then after like they kept having breaks and then you'd come back and they'd put a Taylor Swift song and everyone get on top of the chairs and spin their napkins and it doesn't get dark until two in the morning so the wedding started and it went until two in the morning and it was still light so is it is that included the ceremony or is that just a reception everything yeah so it's just one long party so they drink a lot or is it a non-drinking kind of thing is it just crazy oh so much drinking so much drinking every single toast had a shot oh I didn't imagine the Swedish is big drinkers I don't know why I've never thought about it actually but like little nip shots and then there was like three different types of wine and then multiple cocktails came out what it had to really monitor myself is a Swedish licorice it just gotcha something was it is it something this lots a little Swedish specialty things I don't know you don't actually don't speak Swedish we didn't then no but the poor bridesmaid sitting next to me because I was a bridesmaid so the other bridesmaid had to translate everything for me poor girl didn't you have a girl going for if you tried the new year buds they apparently translate well I didn't have Swedish I didn't have internet at the time and it was really hard but I was able to use it to translate like the menu and the things all like the signage so and now you've got a client in Sweden will you get more probably yeah yeah I have monthly websites like they're they have us as a it's kind of like a new offering for them so they're developing the offering and so they're like offering it to their clients yeah so we're finding actually we've got kind of two go to markets we've got agencies are using us as like their way to deliver faster and kind of embed themselves in their clients and then we've got the people who are doing it direct and they're just using it and then they're bringing on their partners okay why enterprise I mean I know obviously there's a lot of reasons they pay well they're sticky all those kinds of things but for example could I take your product and put it onto the Nudge website 100 percent it's obviously much more simplistic but why do you focus particularly on enterprises because just the complexity in there you know you could probably look at my website in and just tell me I don't think you need your your tool but is that the reason that's the reason yeah I mean really you don't have the visibility problem across large silo teams you can probably just tap on someone over their desk yeah where these enterprises are sometimes split by countries yeah and so I'm actually going after the bigger the messier the better this plenty of them I know so I I'm thinking about brands that have different experiences per country and they're trying to manage they're trying to manage a different marketing team per country with a different experience different website and brand governance different outcomes potentially yeah did they know their outcomes typically or do they often actually not even know the outcome they want because it'd be very hard to work with someone who didn't know what they wanted out of it how can you create journey if you don't know what you're going I think there's a lot of businesses that have just been really successful off monopoly and I don't think I don't think that that's going to work anymore I think we're going to have to build really proactive customer experience brands that are faster where historically these guys could take six to nine months to fix a problem yeah but they get it they still get the client and the client will deal with the friction because they're the the challenger brands are coming up hard and fast what do you think about and this is a because it's slightly off topic but I'm interested in your opinion so we do a lot of brand building for leaders which I think is becoming super important like you've just said right some companies have become successful off monopolies I think sometimes it becomes successful because of their brand no one knows who the leader is but I think the customers now want to know who the leader is they want to know what they're like as a person they want to know what they stand for do you think that should be built into that customer like that's what we do we do so much content for them and it could be content for their website it could be podcasts it could be social media doesn't matter do you think that should be built into the journey that kind of that you seeing that trend yeah so the we didn't event a couple of weeks ago about how we were like buyers and bots how you create customer experiences for dual audiences when you had a human you needed to create the brand and the brand needed to understand what you stood for and that needed that could be visually apparent but now you've got agents and someone who's never going onto your website anymore and they need to get your brand perception from an agent and so then how do you build that brand perception and that trust across all those channels channels and govern it so that the agent will pick it up because now it's picking up all that legacy content and that's going against you so then there's all these cool tools that are looking at what's everyone's like what what's showing up in in chat you be tea what's showing up in cloud and there and there's a bunch of tools trying to solve that problem I'm thinking about what are you going to do when you find out about it and how you're going to find that content and so I'm trying to be that content governance and that brand yeah that grant that brand content governance of the journey whether it's zero click or they want to go through the whole process how do you make it frictionless for two customers and how do you really scrutinize it and build a system an operating model that's fast because there's people trying to solve the operating model to make them really fast the customer's doing it too interesting so what what does that product like explain that to me the the the new future that you mentioned at the beginning well I guess we're thinking maybe I mean right now you can like do virtual reality of like you can like literally like film a house right now and it will create a 3d model of your house like I see that as being able to do that for the customer experience at some point interesting like think about like the minority report being able to like put on some like glasses and be able to see your entire customer experience and be like walking through it in the journey I know right but I think about it that might be my credit maybe it's not I know that I think about it I think of that it was one of my pitches on tech stars I'm like there's no one in in a building with some minority report goggles looking at your experience and scrutinizing it and trying to figure out how it's going to be the best for you they're they're really guessing and they're blind and they're looking at analytics and they're reactive and the whole metric is on an MPS score that no no one's going to be filling out anymore because they're using Claude or they're using yeah yeah NPS is probably going to die what's NPS going to do so I'm thinking about the I'm thinking about a new score I'm thinking about the new way I haven't thought about the name yet I haven't thought about call it the Britney school god that's a bit pretentious push that you go out there come on you cast Claude tomorrow morning if you should call it that also at chat TVT and see what he says well I'm already naming my journey builder Hazel after my second daughter I was guessing that was a name to say that's a cool name I like that name so we've got Neveman Hazel so we're building the journey builder and then they'll kind of just evolve to be this really cool command center that you could upload strategy to documents upload all of your different data sources and it kind of just understands and to end your entire customer experience what you're trying to achieve and then through the channels while connecting all the points is it better than you thought it was going to be I don't mean the product I mean you're journey like where you're at like the the founder stuff I mean obviously you kick some massive goals you've got funding you've got a team you've got enterprise customers you're doing demos I mean it's it's a pretty Cinderella story right now is it as fun as you thought it was be yeah that also you said that so quietly yeah it is but then you don't realize like how much how you can feel the most ultimate high and the ultimate ultimate low at the same time yeah I had a career with that so no one can understand you can't explain that to someone no people look at you go what the heck does that mean no you just don't like I just can't believe how I can feel so much joy and also so much stress at the same time you know you do get used to it though you do you do you like but then it kind of it kind of makes you numb yeah it's I mean I feel there's a lot of things I'm numb too and I think that's a good no it's like we go for my heart like I got the innovator award a couple weeks ago at women leading to I did not know that why did we not look that up congratulations thank you and and I got the award I was absolutely baffled and immediately baffled but I mean I like I didn't go in thinking I would get it I was I was a finals for two categories entrepreneur and innovator and the entrepreneur went and I didn't get it I literally sat at the table with me in a couple of my team and I literally filmed it took a photo of it and was like and it was like it was shocked to me and I still some and then you know some media came out about it was all really exciting and then I people are still congratulating me and I kind of was like oh yeah I don't know gotta get back to work gotta I gotta I gotta make money like I was just like this I and I thought it would be this life-changing moment I've got this plaque it's really cool it's like a thing no one will ever be able to take away from me but you still you get it and you're like the next one you know there are so many things we do that are so exciting hmm and then they're not and I'm not even an hour later like you build these these milestones up and even more so like with some of the pillars which is a physical place right we have events and we opened it and we're having our first birthday yeah and you get so excited about literally the next day go again it's it's funny isn't it it's it's a never-ending it's a never-ending I don't want to say treadmill because it's not can I if you ever read the book I think you should read this book I think you'd like I think I might have told you this when you were doing a pitch thing it's called the gap in the game no I haven't read it it's by a guy called Dr.