From Childhood Adversity to "Good Shepherd" Leadership with Peter Bissonnette

Speaker A: When Peter Bissonnet was a child, he was frequently locked in a closet, left to comfort himself, told he was ugly by his mother. And yet he still tapped into this deep faith within himself and outside of himself that led him to the top of a family communications company that he scaled to a multi billion dollar corporation. And he didn't achieve that through being ruthless or power hungry. He did it through many powerful life lessons that led him to adopt the philosophy of becoming what he would consider a good shepherd. Peter is the former president of Shaw Communications, a, uh, multi billion dollar Canadian family enterprise. And he's also the author of the book Count on Me, My Life Lessons, uh, My Life Lessons and Legacy as a former president of Shaw Communications. And in this episode he shares a story that left me stunned. And what struck me most was how Peter didn't just survive. His experiences transformed him and those around him into better people. He built a belief in himself and others. And he carried that belief into the boardrooms, into leadership, and into legacy. So if you've ever questioned whether you're enough to lead a family business or if the wounds from your past might be holding you back, this episode is going to hit home for you. But before we begin, if you want to keep learning more about how to build a business that thrives on love, legacy and lifestyle, hit the subscribe button. Enjoy the show. Strengthen the love, the legacy and the lifestyle in your family business. This is fearless family business. Peter, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here. This is, I've been really excited about this ever since Damon introduced us.

Speaker B: Well, likewise, Adam. Thanks. In fact, I've locked. I've watched you and Damon, uh, in your, and your. One of your guesting appearances and it was really helpful for me to understand where you're coming from and what you're all about. And um, and I have a very small slice of life. But what I, I'm really looking forward to this, uh, to this, our conversation

Speaker A: as, as am I. And, and, and yeah, we're speaking of Damon Lemby, who's a, who's a mutual friend of ours who, who uh, seems to know a lot of really amazing people. And I get introduced to a lot of amazing people through Damon and, and uh, and Peter Bisnett, you are one of them. And um, and, and your story, uh, is, is really profound. I think it's going to resonate with a lot of people here because you grew up in humble beginnings. A lot of, you know, family businesses start in humble beginnings and a lot of, uh, um, And, And. And a lot of those grow into something pretty fantastic. And you came from humble beginnings, you know, worked your way through a variety of different amazing, you know, parts of your life to land at a multi billion dollar communications company in. In, uh, Canada, and running that company and taking those life skills into running that. And, um, we're going to kind of COVID a lot of that today, but I'd love to hear maybe some of the start of where your journey began, you know, back when you were young. What. What. What. And. And how you kind of transitioned into that, those humble beginnings, into somebody that maybe wanted to become more and. And serve more.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's, um. Well, first of all, thank you. And the humble beginnings were. I didn't even think of them as humble beginnings. It was. I was one of seven children. My mother was a nurse in the navy, and my father was a captain in the. I'm sorry, a major in the Canadian army. He. They had met in England when my m. Where my mom was living in. In, um, uh, Farnborough. And they fell in love and he took her back to Canada and lo and behold, they had seven children. And you know, it was so. It was a whirlwind time, you know, that she came from 21 years old and all of a sudden she's in Canada, the freezing country that, um, she was unfamiliar with. And, um, she was all of a sudden in the m. Midst of creating another family. 7. And she came from a family of 11, as did my father. So. So we. We lived in Ottawa. When I was born in Ottawa, we lived there. And, um. It was amazing. There was my mother. Uh, and I. I sort of attribute this to maybe the. The rapidity with which she had a family. But, um. And. And postpartum she, um. She wasn't the most encouraging for me. And. And from early on, you know, there were. I talk about it in this. In my book that, um. There were times when she would confine me in a closet and, um, for something I had done. And, um. And she was very openly. She would openly tell me that, you know, I was the ugliest baby she'd ever had.

Speaker A: Geez.

Speaker B: So things like that. And so I found it, um, challenging because I. I had brothers and sisters and so we. We used to chat and laugh and play and do all the things that children do. And uh, they even recognized that there was something different about the way my mother kind of communicated with me as. As they did. She did with them. So anyway, there was. So there was a. I. I won't call it the most encouraging kind of period in my life. But uh, interesting enough, we moved from Ottawa to Calgary. And in Calgary, when I was four years old I actually went to a mini very young. I learned that um, there is life outside of the family. And then ultimately we moved to England. Uh, my father was posted to Farnborough, where my mother's hometown was. And so um, they essentially had sent my two younger sisters to England two years beforehand. And I think it was because they were a bit tough. My mom was having struggles in terms of managing all these children, all very, very young. Like we were all eight years within each other. Um, so when we came to England the first thing that really happened was we were put into a boarding school. And as much as that was tough and you know the, the teachers there were also Augustinian monks. And in those days, we're talking about 1954 here now, so not that far removed from WW2.

Speaker A: Sure. Right.

Speaker B: And uh, and you know that things were tough. There were, you know, there were still people kind of getting over the wars and everything else. So the boarding school was about 300 young boys, you know, anywhere from my age, I was I think 8 years old at the time to 16 year old boys and living in a boarding school environment and being a Canadian who they referred to as a Yankee and they didn't, and they didn't do it with love. They saw, they saw me as kind of an odd boat because I was, I was a Yankee. I kept saying actually I'm a Canuck. And um. So um. But making my way and finding a way to make friends and to participate in things that we all did like playing football and football, being soccer and rollerblading and just doing what children do. I made good friends and was able to um, thrive if you will, in the boarding school environment. Even though. And we used to come home maybe two or three times a year. And um, I found that actually I did better in the boarding school environment. There was more encouragement from the, from the teachers that I had there than uh, I did at home and. Oh wow. Because I would, when I came back it was still kind of the same drama and, and the, you know the. My father was a military person and he wasn't the most, you know, the most loving. He was strict, right. And um, and I think he loved us all. But um, he still had a kind of a military strictness about him. He had being a regimental sergeant major and those are the ones that kind of take non commissioned people and they make soldiers out of them.

Speaker A: And so all Right.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: They were tough as bricks. Wow. Anyway, so in the board, in boarding school, um, I, you know, I was, I was put in the same class as my older brother and, and no doubt, um, because they thought it was. I was only being a year apart. A, ah, year is a big difference in terms of your learning and your cerebral development, et cetera, et cetera. So I wouldn't do as well as my brother. And that was always a challenge for my mom. She thought that I was probably more interested in sports than books and that I, I was not going to do well in life. I was. She called me kind of a meathead and things like that. So, um, you know, that kind of interesting and.

Speaker A: Yeah. Sorry. I, I wanted to kind of touch on something there too, because, because I, something struck me in, in the first part of the book too, that you, you'd mentioned when she would, when she would put you in the closet. And a lot of kids obviously would see that as, as being, you know, kind of an abandonment. Uh, and, and perhaps it was for you, but, but I, but I was struck by how you said you found, you found this level of comfort in yourself. You hugged your knees, you know, you, you almost found comfort with yourself, which seemed like a unique kind of way that, uh, to, uh, deal with that situation. Do you. How, uh, how can maybe, can you touch on that or maybe expand on that a little bit? Yeah, I'd love to hear more on how you came to that.

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting. The working title of my book was have Faith in Yourself. Um, Believe in Yourself. And from a very young age, I remember being confined in that closet and not understanding why I was there. But, um, I, I had somehow. I don't know if it's an inner strength, but I said, you know, I believe in myself. I believe in myself. I'm not as stupid as she thinks I am. I'm, I, I, I, I had siblings that would encourage me. I had an older sister that was somewhat protective. And, um, within, you know, where children are kind of powerless at times, I mean, you, you don't create your own destiny, but within your own, within sort of 24 hours a day, you. There is a part of yourself that is you. And, um, and so I found that it was, I found actually soulless in the fact that I was kind of surviving even in that kind of, I'll call it not the most positive, um, kind of environment. And so in this quietness of being alone. And I, you know, there were many times I was alone. Uh, you know, I Was put in my room, put in the closet and those kinds of things. I found strength in the fact that I actually survived those and that there was still. It wasn't for something I could point my finger at in terms of why I was there. It was more of a concern about my mother. And I think, you know, uh, as you see later on in the book, there was a reconciliation about 20 years later where she phoned me when I was working at the telephone company, and she was crying and she said, peter, I don't. Can you ever forgive me for treating you the way I treated you? And her, uh, own sister, who was a positive force in my life, my Auntie Rosemary, used to chastise her for being so, uh. You shouldn't have favorites in children. Each of them is individuals, and each of them have individual strengths. And to this day, when I look at somebody and somebody says, boy, that's a bit of an odd person. Looking for the good in people is really a powerful, powerful. I won't call it a skill, but it's a powerful, um, way of bringing positive out of people and to the. And I just say, as much as, you know, somebody might appear to be different, if you can find one good thing about somebody and then really celebrate that, you'd be amazed at how. How farther that goes. All of a sudden you're starting. You're finding two things and three things, and you say, wow, I kind of like the way that person. That person seems to, you know, reciprocate with me. And they said, we seem to get along. And it's because of the kind of. That encouragement that really is powerful in life. And so to the extent that I found that in other avenues, I found it in some of the priests that actually taught me in boarding school that. That looked at me in a way that was positive. They saw me as athletic. They saw me as a person that loved to compete, somebody that was interested in life, you know, loved. You know, I played well as well, and I had, you know, friends that, um, that looked as me. Somebody that they liked to be around. And so words of encouragement, the power of those really became more evident to me because they were like little juices, good fruit, you know, good food, um, and so nourishing. So I think. I guess I. So that I drew from those words of encouragement. And even with m. As I said with my sisters, they used to laugh about it sometimes. Well, you know, because it was. It's. It was so. So adroit that, uh. But the. Even young siblings could see that there Was something wrong here? And so I think I took strength from that as well.

Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, it's a, it's a powerful story. I mean, and, and I feel like not a lot of, I mean, just, just the fact that you were able to, to find that faith in yourself and, and, and tap into those who were being more encouraging, um, and kind of moving into, back into. When you were in boarding school. Now you are, you know, uh, um, you're. Would. Did that kind of shape you into wanting to move into maybe the seminary and, and kind of take that spiritual route?

Speaker B: Yeah. I know it wasn't in the boarding school that that happened.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: The boarding school helped me realize that there were things that I could achieve. And so there was. I was developing self confidence. Um, my reading skills were probably the, the biggest, uh, concern for my mom. But I actually found that they were probably when I learned to read, very powerful, you know, and those have served me well in my life. I remember, you know, as I said, when my father wasn't the most loving, I did find mentors. And I remember my Uncle Peter, who was, uh, a fashion designer in, um, living in Vancouver when I made the trip from Ottawa to Vancouver to make a career change. Right. No money, no job. And he put me up. But he was a huge believer in me. In fact, I think he was the one behind the scenes that said to his sister, my mother, you know, you've got a beautiful son. He's wonderful. He's been in the Air Force. He's done very well there. And he's going to. He may have a job here in a month. And so, um, I think that he advocated for me in a way that essentially, um, made my mother have second thoughts about. Well, perhaps he isn't as big, adult maybe. And maybe she found something in me that, um, that she could actually look to as being really positive and uh, as opposed to somebody who'd left the seminary, who'd left the Air Force and um, and was now, you know, on. In Vancouver.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so he was a mentor. And then in business, like when I was at B.C. tel, um, I had technical skills and I, again, I started from the bottom as a tall switch film. But there was a supervisor, Tom Porteus, who was a huge. Had a huge impact on me. He saw something in me that I didn't even see. And he said to me one day, peter, how would you like to come and work for me on this switch? And it was, you know, it was one of the switches that um, you know, it was a, um, complex Analog switch that uh, he saw that I had sort of technical capabilities. He also saw that I was, I worked hard. I had a certain work ethic that he really wanted to have. And he had older people working with him. When I say older, I was 21, 22. Some of them were 25, 30, 35 years old at the time. And so they were more mature. And um, he just thought that I would be, I would make a good addition to his team. And so he chose me. I was overcome. I said I Tom, I've heard only good things about you as a supervisor. I'd love to come and work with you. And so I did. And to the extent that the game, I would never let him down. He essentially acknowledged what, you know, his trust in me to come and work on this switch. And I told him I would never let him down. And so my work ethic, the work ethic within the group, um, some people didn't, they weren't in there to do a lot of work. It was more sort of a passing fancy being at work. And so I took call, uh, myself that Tom, you know, trusted me. And so to the extent we had tickets that were customer service focused or things were broken in the switch that needed to be looked at, I took it really seriously and, and I tried to model myself after him. But it was interesting through the course of doing that amongst my peers, some of them started to, you know, actually when you work hard, the day goes by quite quickly and there's a certain feeling, a sense of accomplishment when you actually are able to successfully fix some, fix issues that are affecting customers throughout, you know, all of British Columbia. So there was an opportunity for me to both reflect my loyalty to Tom, my gratitude to Tom, but also set an example for my co workers.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that work ethic was. Do you think that work ethic came from the variety of experiences you had? Because you had, I mean you had so many different experiences. Obviously growing up in, in, in, in the environment, getting mentors, becoming a priest and then, you know, going to the Air Force, you had all of those, that kind of foundation of different experiences. Did all of that lead to your worth at work ethic or do you think that was kind of just in your DNA?

Speaker B: I think they, it contributed for sure because I look at sports as also, you know, no different business. You know, so in. I played soccer and you know, when you're in boarding school, you have, you know, when, uh, uh, we have eight hours a day of ah, play time, like sports time. So I played soccer and Um, I love being a part of a team. I love the, you know, the dynamics of a team. You know, when you're playing left wing and you can pass the ball to the center forward or whatever, right. Or if you're in goal and you're the last kind of bastion and you know what, you know, the sense of accomplishment you get if you can do something right for the team. So I think the work, you know, and I uh, oh, I mean I thrust myself into sports, um, to the point where I used to get. I've had six shoulders surgeries from my hockey days. I just loved it so much because there was a certain dynamic, a certain sharing, sharing of accomplishments. You know, there's a goal, sort goal orientation to it, you know. And um, and so I think my work ethic came from my love of sports, my love of being part of a team and making sure that I was accountable and I was making my contributions to the sex success of the team. So right. If they passed the ball to the left wing, I didn't just kind of meander over there. I mean, so I think that was a good part of it. So the boarding school taught me teammanship, how you build relationships, um, respect, uh, even amongst eight year olds, there was a certain respectful kind of behavior that you, you could see actually was effective.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah. And um, and that, I mean then that kind of brought you into this world. Like I want kind of shifting gears back into, into your progression through your career and moving, moving back in. Because you started working for a variety of family businesses as you started out. You know, you started at the very bottom and um, and then you've made, you made some decisions down that path to like to make some changes. But what was it that drew you to um, you know, family business in particular, that, that, that really drove you to want to continue down that path.

Speaker B: I found that, um, uh, well, the first family business I worked with was Rogers. And Ted Rogers was, they used to call him the kind of the titan of cable. He was, he founded that company and he was a, he was a huge risk taker. Um, he put it all in the line. Um, and he and his company had a culture that was quite, it was aggressive and growing and um, they were, they were risk averse and um, or actually they were bank reverse. They, you know, they, they basically took risks that um, not many people would take. And this, so this was Ted's vision of how he could build this company. And so I worked for uh, Rogers for five years and they were, I loved the dynamics of the. Because we were going through a technological change. You know, I guess my whole career that's been one of the sort of backdrops is this technological change going from analog equipment to tubes to large scale integration, all the way to what we're doing now with satellites and cable and fiber optics, et cetera. So uh, I loved what he did from a technological point of view because I was a technician by nature. Um, in terms of the way that we work together. There were silos within the company that I thought were probably dysfunctional and so they were. I tried to break those silos down. In fact, when I worked in Vancouver, the headquarters for Rogers were in Toronto. And so we had this dynamic of the blue bloods in Toronto and the, and the, and uh, the group in Vancouver as being different. And I said that doesn't serve us well here in Vancouver to be considered different. We need to be a part of the team. And I guess that's the whole. And so to the extent that I could bring that bridge that gap if you will, of 3,000 miles, but through traveling to Toronto, meeting with the technical people, my, you know, the positions across the country that you know, that I served as, as an operations manager. And um, and so um, I became known, you know, there were certain aspects of what I became known for. And Dave, and Dave and Steve McDonald had a private company, a cable company, the same thing in Vancouver. It was the largest multi system operator that was, you uh, know that was independent if you will. They were a family and the two. So they approached me one day to join their family company and I went, wow, I've respected these guys because I'd seen, worked with them on the sidelines and um, and I actually visualized one day working for them. And when Steve phoned me one day and he said Dave and I would love to meet you. We were during, it was just during your labor dispute too. So there was a lot of energy going on in our lives. You know, there was a labor dispute at Rogers had been going on. It was acrimonious. We were, I was part of the negotiating team that was trying to bring this thing to a conclusion. So anyway, through the course of working uh, as a part of the negotiating team, I had the privilege of meeting Dave and Steve McDonald. And when they asked me if I would, they told me that they were looking at maybe stepping away from the business in terms of their active operational presence and they were looking for somebody to lead the company. And I went, holy doodle. I can't. You know this. It was almost like the skies open up. There was this providential move, something I visualized myself doing. And here I was being offered this job and I, so I absolutely said I would love to do that, I'd be honored to do it. And um, to the extent that they trusted me with this opportunity, I also affirmed for them that they would, I would never let them down. And so, you know, the, the work ethic was there, but also I was, I had moved away from my sort of technical focus to much more administrative, relationship based kind of management. And my leadership skills, um, were, they were still in sort of an evolving state, but they were getting to be much more like a consistent. And so the Good shepherd was something that really was important to me when I was in the seminary. I was to look at the Good shepherd as, as a, as somebody that you could actually look to. He was a protector, he had his flock and he was there to make sure that at night the wolves and whatever other vermin were out there, you know, wouldn't harm his sheep. And so to the extent that, that kind of modeled for me what I could do in, given my leadership role, that I actually could actually create a work environment where our employees felt really safe, that they felt that there was opportunities to grow within the company, that there was opportunities to really enjoy each other through the course of what, you know, work isn't just work. Work is also, you know, transactional, relationship based and to set tone, set the tone in terms of. We were growing quickly. We were the fastest growing company in Canada at the time, but still small, relatively small. And so my whole raise on dreads in terms of management style was to ensure that what they entrusted me to run their company and to do it in as an enlightened, as way as I could. And so it was clear to me that there were still some communications weaknesses, if you will, uh, amongst the senior leadership. And so I spent a lot of time working with organizational psychologists to talk about how we can improve communications with leaders and the transformation and just learning the skills of communications, respecting each other. Don't carry and get back. You know, a lot of people carry baggage from three or four or five years back or 10 years back, getting rid of that baggage. And it was funny because that came from my experience in the monastery was once a week these monks would get together very austere and they would basically, I hate to use the word flagellate, but they would talk about their faults and their vulnerabilities and they would ask the other monks to help them to be better. And I Thought wow, it's talk about being vulnerable.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And so to the extent that you know, I was uh, still in a learning mode, I, you know, I was more of a technical person. I prided myself on my relationship skills. I had been a computer programmer in, in a time, so I understood what IT folks were going through. And so having uh, reaching out to them and just trying to understand what was important to them really set the tone if you will. And I had an unbelievable administrative person who knew all of the staff very well and who told them, you can trust Peter. She was my sort of, if you will, administrators of the key to these companies.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so, so, and I played sports with them, I played baseball on their, on their team. So to the extent that you could find common interests, people understand that you, that you put your pants on the same way that you do in the morning. There's nothing unique about being a leader other than we all as, as I learned later on and with my Next family, with J.R. shaw was we all, we're all equal, we just have different roles and responsibilities and wow, what a powerful message to hear from the founder of a company that we are and to actually live that, you know. So I've just transitioned to, to Shaw and moving into that company, they knew me from my, my because we were all a part of the lower mainland of Vancouver's um, you know, milieu. And so we, we each, we all knew each other from, you know, the way each other's companies were going and we looked at each other, said I wonder how they're doing at Western, how are they doing at Shaw, how are they doing at Rogers? So, so Junior after uh, after I, Rogers actually ended up buying Western. And so uh, after three and a half years and you know, I was settling in, in my mind that this was going to be a long term career at Western and we're going to make great things happen. And we uh, had done some pretty unique, um, had some pretty unique initiatives. I was feeling more comfortable about the banking side of the business, about the whole budgeting capital, um, budget and budgeting and working within our means. And uh, jr, the founder of Shaw, we'd had a chance to work with them on a kind of a joint project and they got a sense of what my strengths were and how I could actually help them, um, through the course of moving to Shaw. Shaw was about uh, 400 employees at the time, maybe $100 million in revenue. And Jim and JR said to me that we want you to come to the company because we're all about growing. We want to grow through new products, but we want to also grow through acquisitions. And at the time there were many small operating companies that were looking to get out of the business because it was becoming, uh, uh, uh, too capital intensive, if you will. And the financial side of building a plant was something that really didn't fit within their own family, um, you know, plans. And so we ended up. So I came to them on the basis that that would be my role. And um. And from almost, from day one we hit the start, you know, and we started buying companies and, and JR and and, and, and um. Jim were masters. I mean Jim, uh, at the time was. He would, he kept me on my toes because he was looking, he was a futurist, if you will, and he was looking at things that we could do to be much more to have enduring relationships with our customers. We were, I mean it was resonating with me because it was music with my ears. I hated disappointing customers. And so to the extent that that was something that Jim and I held in common is that. And the whole company did, frankly, just by virtue of know the, I call it the messaging that was that, you know, that was uh, sent out from, from, to the various departments. The way we structured ourselves, we had customer service departments in all of our systems in, in Canada. We never had offshore customer service. We wanted our service rates to be our own customers as well. So, so we shared the same passion, if you will, for customer service. And um. So anyway, I don't know if you want to interrupt me for anything.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think that that's great because I, I think because I, I was jotting down some notes there that you were, you were pointing out a lot of, a lot of commonalities, uh, within family businesses too. I mean when you started, even in, in that process of getting into families and starting to turn it around and getting curious and I love the idea that you, you almost took this, it seems like you took this humble approach to. I don't, I'm not a knower. I'm, I'm the person who is going to learn and I'm going to apply to, to, to, to grow it. So, you know, there you talked about kind of improving the communication, letting go of some of the baggage, building some relatability, all, all common themes within family business and, and, and almost making it more human. Do you feel like that was the aspect that kind of made the difference of, of, of helping you to become more successful in, in those families and those businesses?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean J.R. was, his reputation was as a father and a founder. He was a tough businessman. But you know, we had Shaw Bears was one of his initiatives. We had, we used to call them trauma bears. So we had these Shaw Bears, all white with blue little things. And we gave them to, in all the communities we served. We gave them to the ambulances and to the police. And if there was ever a child in trauma, they had these little bears to give to them. And I remember my son at the time when I gave him. He was four or five years old, I gave him one of those bears. And he said to me, he's now 38 years old working for Rogers. But he said how important that was that, that little bear, uh, because you know, he'd gone through some difficult times himself, how important that bear was to give him comfort. So that was something. And Junior was, I mean he was almost religious about these bears. But also in, in terms of the we company, you know, we weren't an I company.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And he even had on his cards, you know, we are. You know, there was no we in team or there's no I in team. But um, we actually live that, that value. And so to the extent that in some of my previous um, experiences in business that um, that there was almost competition between uh, you know, leaders for the light. And I said our role as leaders is to shine the light. We don't run to the light. And so to the extent that that was something that was encouraged by Junior and almost celebrated, really, it felt so, for me, so comfortable. I mean I'd been through the seminary, I'd been in, you know, in boarding school and it was all about relationships and how we kind of correlated with each other. And J.R. he was the master, if you will. He was a father. He loved his children and he shared that with us too. I mean I was at so many um, so many um, I call them business meetings. But where Junior actually started crying when he's talking about his family and when he was talking about how he came into the business and he started at the bottom. He was in the pipe coating business. And then he basically moved into uh, his interest in cable because he was living in Edmonton and they had one off air channel.

Speaker A: Oh wow.

Speaker B: But he's. He used to cry with pride, if you will, that his family, his two sons, you know, Jim and Brad and his two daughters, Heather and Julie, that they could actually make a life in his company that he had founded and they would be. And they, he. He was so proud that they all started at the bottom. They learned customer service from the bottom. They learned the technical side and digging shovels and trenching and all the kinds of things you need to do. Heather had gone to school and she had her mba and she ultimately took over the whole media side of the business. We were now growing into the point where we were scaling. And so scaling became the challenge of scaling was how do we continue that same family values when you've actually taken on more employees than you already have existing? So my role was almost the ambassador of values.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, um, and I took that seriously. Um, and Bill McDonald, who's our HR vice, ah, president, he and I had a, you know, I used to say that he reminded me of Father John Bosco, who all the kids in the schoolyard used to be attracted to because he, they. Because he was respectful to them and he helped them to, you know, coexist together. So there were all of those kinds of connections for me of, ah, family while I was working with Shaw. And then the people, the senior leadership team, they, they all were cut with the same cloth. They understood that we were there to make each other successful. So we weren't there to one up each other. We used to share in the, the joys of the kinds of accomplishments we would, you know, that we would experience working as a, um, as a senior M. Leadership team. We, we had high expectations. We were renowned as a company that was very, um, cost effective, cost efficient. So we, uh, you know, so we got things done, but we got things done in a business perspective with margins that were probably the leading margins within the industry because of the way we did things and the example that Junior had set, uh, when we first came there in terms of. Every penny is like a manhole cover. You know, they're hard to lift. So, you know, don't just throw them up. Don't be frivolous about pennies.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And, um, and the rest will follow. And, and um, he was, but he was very, very supportive of whatever the capital necessary to grow the business to give better levels of customer service, to satisfy this, you know, the. Because we had. We grew from zero Internet customers to a million in two years.

Speaker A: Geez. Wow.

Speaker B: So it was just unbelievable growth.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, and, and so anyway, and of course to do that, you have to do it with a team. And, And I was, you know, you talk about vulnerability. I was vulnerable. When we used to get together in budgeting, there were. I always, you know, I think it was a. Surround yourself with the best possible people. And so we would find CFOs that were the best that possibly would. Engineering managers, engineering leaders. It. We uh, had you know, a person, Zoran, who the need was. I could tell that we were growing so fast that our back office systems were really, they were for me at risk point. So we found this person almost like he was delivered to us from the heavens.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Who you know, brought us into a level of achievement that we were able to support the business as it grew. So. But it was all done in support of advocacy for each other.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you were the first, were you the first non uh, family CEO at Shaw? Is that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was. So I was the president, not the CEO.

Speaker A: I'm sorry, the first president.

Speaker B: I was the. And I'll tell you the pride I had. It was a board meeting and Jim Shaw, I used to attend the board meetings and I would do. Give the operation reports and I remember Jim said oh to the board, he said so Peter's going to talk about the operations but before he does, I want you to know that he's now the president of Shaw Communications. I, uh, was, I mean I, I couldn't wipe the smile off my face. I went red because I was blushing. And I said to them, I can't tell you how proud I am to. Proud and humbled by what you've done and I will never let you down.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And so that was my commitment to the board and to the family and to the extent that um, I think that um, I lived that uh, you know, that mandate, um, here I am enjoying my life in Kelowna, um, now having left the company, you know, retired in, in 2015.

Speaker A: I love that. That's so great. And, and um, you know you mentioned being the ambassador of the value. So I think I know the answer to this next question in some ways. But being that you know, first kind of maybe, maybe bringing in that non family perspective. I know that you uh, know I just talked with a couple of family businesses, you know, one that was 147 years in before they brought in their first non family CEO or president. And then they uh, you know, our company ourselves, we were over 100 years old before we brought somebody non family and, and that's a big change. And I can imagine being a non family president in that lead role, having to navigate that change, that dramatic change in that growth can have a lot of stress or a lot of maybe there's challenges that come with that. I'm curious to know how you navigated that and how um, uh, how you brought the team together amidst Some of that, yes.

Speaker B: Well, it was, um. Well, the first of all for the support from Junior and his wife Carol, who, by the way, I attended her funeral last week, and so she's the matriarch. Junior passed a couple of years ago, but they were. So. As parents, so they had. I used to amaze myself as. How does a family share it? Because we were a publicly traded company, how does a family, um, unselfishly share itself to. I'll call outsiders, like senior leaders within the company? And so we had a perspective into the family that was, I call it, privileged. And so there were things that we knew about what's going on in the family that, um, we were privileged and they were transparently opening up to us. So we knew, you know, more about the family than. Than most people, uh, did, and we took that as a privilege and, um, and we respected it. But the family. So Junior and Carol embraced me, and they embraced me. Um, Jim and Brad, you know, the two boys. Um, one of them was. Jim was a CEO. I was the president, and Brad was. He was ultimately. He became the CEO after he became my boss, ultimately. But so I prided myself on. There was a dynamic between two brothers that, um, clearly, in a family that was growing the way it was, um, there was a dynamic that I really thrived on because it was, how can we, the three of us, the three amigos, work together to do. To support the company, to make JR Proud of what we were doing? And he was an awfully proud founder and father. And I think when he talks about that pride is when I see the tears welling up in his face. His kids were actually living and making a living in this, uh, and contributing in a significant way to the success of the company. And then, as I said, the senior leaders also created the path, if you will. I remember saying to people, I used to love to chat with our staff, and we would have regular meetings and I would talk about our values. And our values were. Well, first of all, the underpinning one was caring. And if you care enough about customers, if you care enough about your shareholders and you care enough about all your colleagues, though that is the most profound value I think that you can. Because the rest kind of flow from it, whether it's integrity, accountability. So there was. We weren't ashamed or shy to talk about our values amongst ourselves. When we were in. There were times as, uh, I alluded to that, where Jim was going through some challenges and the management team, um, and he, you know, he would be. He wouldn't show up for, you know, because he was dealing with some other issues. And so we took upon ourselves to, you know, keep the boat, the boat going. Right. You know, they could count on us to do what was necessary when we were taking on. We were at that time starting to spend like $800 million a year in capital. I mean, that, uh, had to come from somewhere. And the board trusted us, that we were. We made wise decisions that we weren't flamboyant about what we were buying. We weren't golden nutting everything. We were doing what was necessary to keep the company in a prominent position, in a positive position with our customers. So we offered Internet services that were second to none at the time. We had customer service people that were all from the communities that we served. And we used to have five customers a day. Uh, five customers a day. I would get a list from our back office system people and as did all the other senior leaders. And we would call those customers and I'd say, hi, good Mr. Smith, how are you today? My name is Peter Bissonnette. I'm the president of Shaw. And I'm just wondering, how did we do today? Because they had their service provided. Were there things that we could have done better? And, uh, they said, you're the president and you're calling me. Yes, I am the president and I am calling you because I care.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And it was amazing how. I mean, we were all about enduring relationships. We were in a. We probably were in the most competitive communities in North America because the telephone companies were aggressively trying to get into our business, whereas in the US they weren't quite there yet. It was. The cable guys had their territory and the telephone guys had theirs. In Canada, it was all about dog eat dog. And the telephone companies were coming strong. So, uh, we, we had to be the best of the. The best. And, um, so to the extent that we were in this competitive environment, we were actually better for it. But we felt as, you know, a sense of team accomplishment as we continued to grow in spite of the, you know, what was going on with the competition.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so real business. Sorry, sorry. So real practical businesses, uh, business dynamics, but doing it in an enlightened way, really. And even the regulator looked to Shaw as being somebody that they would, they would encourage us to appear before them because they, I think they saw the, the quality, if you will, of Junior and, and the quality of the kind of the, the people that we had representing our company when we were looking at regulatory, you know, approvals on acquisitions and, and the like. Mm.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. And, and, and so that's. I think that's a great point. You know, you're. You were able to, to be a great company, a business, but also be a hu. Be a human company. And I love that aspect. In a world where many of those great big companies are trying to be less human, you know, and, and especially now, I think humanity always wins. I, I feel that way.

Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah, well. Yeah, well, you know, since, since the book has come out, um, um, I've had so many employees reach out to me. You know, we've obviously been promoting it. We've, you know, we've, um. But, um. Uh, one. I had a letter from a lady who was the vice president of our company and ah, left long before we sold to Rogers. And she was going through a difficult period and she wrote to me saying how much she appreciated that I would write my story. She said she had been. Her husband had just left her, frankly. And she had looked at my book and she said she photographed some of the paragraphs where we were. I was describing, you know, some of the challenges that we were meeting and overcoming. And I actually mentioned her in my book as being somebody that was a part of this team that we were all so proud of. And uh, so to get that, uh, feedback, it made the legacy, if you will, because this was a legacy product, a project for me and uh, my co writer, Lucy Linsky. Uh, this was a legacy project and to hear kind of feedback that we've had and it was all about values.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, you know, when Brad became this, when after Jim passed away, um, in about 2011 or 12, Brad, um, said to me, you should be the next CEO. I said, brad, you're Brad, I'm Peter. My role was going to, is to do everything I can to make you the most successful CEO we can. And so to the extent that, um, there was no other motive for me than to make him successful, I didn't pose a risk to him. Again, it was almost a marriage made in him. And that whatever insights I had over my 60 years of experience on this earth, uh, they were going to go to helping Brad to be successful. And he had the same DNA as his father. He was an empathetic. He was a perfectionist in terms of. He understood. He said, I'm vulnerable. I don't really know this. I don't do that. I don't do that. When people are vulnerable, wow. People are there to support them and to fulfill the kinds of needs that they have for their own development and he was an unbelievable CEO before the company was sold. So having the privilege of that. They're still in my life. I'm on the board of the Shaw family trust, and it's a continuum. Um, even though JR has passed now and Jim has passed and Carol, there is still a continuum that we're now into the fourth generation, fifth generation of, of. So, you know about how generationally things can diminish.

Speaker A: You know, absolutely.

Speaker B: J. R is. He said to me, I want, I want there to be opportunities a hundred years from now from people that have. Are from my generation, if you will, from my family. And he put in the, he put the infrastructure in place with the family trust to make that happen and to provide them with the, if you will, the fruits of his labor.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And I want to talk about the book Count on Me, uh, My Life Lessons and Legacy as a former president of Shaw Communications, which, uh, is the book that's out now. And that's the, that's the memoir you wrote. I do want to touch on that, that, uh, that trust, though, that you're talking about, because I know that there's a lot of multi generational family leaders out there that, that would love to make a generational trust that would support generations, uh, for opportunities for them without maybe giving entitlements or anything like that or, or things. Yes, I'd love to hear your perspective as somebody sitting on that board. You know, what, what are some of the best practices that you're maybe implementing to make sure that that happens?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, well, there is, um. So there's a board and then there's also. Actually JR created a, a family management team and it's. And the family management team are both outsiders, you know, who've been with the company for a long time who were trusted by the family, who actually run the, if you will, the activities for. So there are children that go from 1 year old to 25 years old. And so there are different phases of their lives. And some of them, now, some of them have worked for Shaw in kind of in, in beginning roles, and they're just getting their feet wet. But so they've created opportunities, you know, now that the company is, is no longer. It's basically just a investment portfolio.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But there's, there are opportunities for those next generations to actually entrepreneurship. You know, so are there seeds of entrepreneurs within that? You know, the group of grandchildren that we can help, that we can encourage, that we can train, that we can develop? And so, uh, there are outside parties that come into the Family to provide the kind of family counsel that helps the um, generations if you will to understand what they are a part of and how they can actually make their way in life. Um, and not. These are not endowments. These are if you work hard and you show a propensity to uh, to succeed at certain things, whether it's in the arts, whether it's in a, whether it's a financial position, uh, whatever it is that there's resources within the trust to help you, to help, to support you doing that. And so it's Junior didn't, he didn't want to have people that just basically end up with a bunch of money and then he wanted to have, create a foundation for them for generations after generations to succeed. And it's, we're seeing it already, we're seeing the benefits of that. They're all, you know, there's some that just finished universities, they've, you know, they've got a strong interest in business. Some of them are actually uh, you know, doing really well in the telecommunications side of the businesses working for non family kinds of organizations. But having had the experience to work, you know, having worked with, with Shaw, so it's a, and in our role as the board or to, and ensure that you know that so we're there for, I call it for gray haired wisdom and um, and, but not to micromanage but we do have management in there that are there to work directly with the, you know, the various generations of, of of the people that are in that trust.

Speaker A: Mhm. I love that. That's such a great, great observation too. And, and, and what I love about that is that you know, Shaw in its, in its, in its form, you know, it was as I understand it, it was, it was sold to Roger. So it's, it's no longer in the family, but the family has that. So it's not tied to an asset. And I think that family businesses can benefit from the idea that you don't need to tie all of the family wealth to a single asset. A business. It can actually be a fund for opportunities like a trust like that that can be very powerful.

Speaker B: Uh, in fact I think it might even be one of the benefits of not having that because when Shaw was an entity and we were out there serving customers, there might have been a sense of entitlement amongst the generations. But now it's holy doodle, it doesn't exist. So I have to be able to, I have to make my way in a very different way. This, you know, just I have to find My own mentors, and I have to find the things I really am passionate about. That, um, that. That I can. I have confidence that I can actually succeed at. But knowing that there is a. I'll call this a support network that's going to help me to do that, to encourage me to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's so powerful. Um, I like that perspective. I appreciate you sharing that. And, um, I'd like to touch on. I like to talk a little bit about your book, Count on Me, which is. Which is written about your life. And I mean, just what I've read thus far is, so. It's such a powerful representation. We've talked about some of it. We barely scratched the surface on it today. Um, I'd love for you to share why you wrote the book and what you're helping to get at.

Speaker B: Well, actually, it was Lucy, uh, Linsky that used, uh, to work at Shaw, and she was working in the media division. I think I'd met her once. She approached me and said, have you ever thought about writing your own biography? And I said, well, actually, I had, because through the course of my life, there's so many people who said, wow, you've got such a diverse background. I mean, I'm a musician. I love music. Music being my passion. For the last 50 years, I've been in bands. I have a recording studio in this home I'm in.

Speaker A: That's something else we have to talk about someday, too, because I. I love music. Yeah. Yes. And.

Speaker B: And my photography. I've, you know, I've photographed the likes of Franco colombo and. And Mr. North America contest, which is, uh, you know, in the book too. So there was a diverse. Of interest. I was. I love sports, photography and music and business and people. And so, you know, it's like the triangle of, you know, what's. What is your cerebra made of? There's a left brain, there's a logical brain, there's a not so logical creative brain, and there's a spiritual side to us all. And, um, so people say, well, you should write a book. And so I actually started to write a book. And I was writing it on this old computer system that ultimately, unfortunately died. And so I put it on hold. But interestingly enough, I'm glad I did because there was a lot more life to live still from there. So Lucy approached me, and so we went through a process where for about 200 hours, I did a big dump. And I said, we talked about my life and we would be, you know, do it over at teams meetings. And we would, she would record those, and we would talk about, you know, some of the things that. Just as we are right now. What are the important things? What, what was the logic behind those? Why did you do this? Et cetera? It was, for me, it was about a legacy. I mean, just as we talked about the Shaw family trust, I have family as well. I've got three sons. And, um, they have children. And I want those children to say, well, what was it like for Grandpa Peter or Great Grandpa Peter? What was the world that he lived in? What kinds of influences did his decision have on people? What were his values? And so I didn't do this to sell books, frankly, know that's a bad thing. Uh, but what I did do it for was a legacy. And, and, um, and. And to do it in a way that was kind of consistent with, uh, the. No, no animals were hurt in the writing of my book. So there's no deep, dark secrets that come out. It's a pretty, um, it's a book where you. We're basically celebrating lives and the people that I've worked with and, and some of the accomplishments that we've experienced. And to do it in a way that I can tell you that, um, I've been blessed by the people that I've been surrounded by, and, um, whether they be angels who give me an occasional nudge or whether they be mentors that, um, have really had a significant impact on me. And probably 10 people in my life have been significant mentors and have helped me to make my way through this life. So, yeah, um, so it was all about. It was Frankie Legacy and also learnings. There was, I've talked to so many young people, um, through the course of this and through the course of my life that, um, that said, oh, my God. I didn't. There was. Somebody said to me, I read your book. And that part about the talent, you know, and making the best of what God's given you, that really resonated with me is, um. And you don't bury your talents. You, you basically take advantage of whatever those talents were. And so to the extent that I'm going to talk to universities and, and people that are right at the beginning of their career, and I, and I think that there's things that, that they can learn and that I can impart on them that might help them. Visualization, I, I, you know, Maxwell Maltz, his book, you know, psycho cybernetics in 1969, had a huge impact on me. First of all, it worked for me because it was all about goal orientation. And of course being a radar technician, that's what we worked on was things that you set a goal, your radar finds it, and then you have feedback mechanisms that help you to achieve that goal. And so visualization. So things that have helped me to succeed, that could help others. And so it is a legacy both for my, my direct descendants, but also for other children and grownups and people that are making their way of life in this life.

Speaker A: I love that. And if you're listening to this, it can likely be an incredible resource for you because it's the life story of someone who basically brought themselves up from their bootstraps from the. From humble beginnings to becoming the president of a multi billion dollar, uh, corporation, publicly traded and uh, corporation. And, and um. And so read the book. Uh, it's called Count on Me, My Life Lessons and Legacy as a former president of Shaw Shock Communications. And um. I do have one. One more question for you, Peter, because I, you know, I think the question of legacy is. Is. Is a big, big topic, but I'd love to know, you know, what. What does legacy really mean to you as far as what, what you've defined it as?

Speaker B: Uh, legacy is. There's a sort of qualitative side to it is. And it's the qualitative side to legacy. That is what you hope can have a positive impact on people that have either worked with me, so they've experienced it firsthand or those that haven't worked with me that can by reading some of the things that um, that were important to me, the way that I coexist, if you will. And the, and I'll say the impact of the, um. The ways that I related to people and what were the important values that they can learn from to essentially make their way in life in a way with a positive, you know, sort of. It's the modeling side of things, the qualitative side of things.

Speaker A: I love that. That's so great. It all comes back to imparting values and uh. And. And you living. And you have lived those core values with integrity and um. And I'm grateful that you spent this hour with me today. I wish, I wish we could spend more hours. I know that Your book took 200 hours on this, so those who listened only got a small sample, less than 1% of, of what, uh, what. What really exists, uh, within. Within your mind. But um, if people want to, if people want to find you obviously, and get the book, Count on Me. Find it on Amazon, I imagine. Uh.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Where else? Yeah. Where else can people find you?

Speaker B: So Amazon, Ingenium books.com who are the publisher. It's going to be in all book major bookstorms, Amazon, Indigo, uh, Barnes and Noble. Um, and um, I have you know I'm on LinkedIn as well. Peter Bisson at. And you know that's kind of a place where I go for comfort. Um, because there's so many people that have reached out to me since we've uh, written the book and published it. And um, so the learnings continue and my, my role also is to encourage and to congratulate and uh, so to if I can be a mentor to anybody in any positive way, then that's made it all worthwhile.

Speaker A: That's fantastic. What a, what a great.

Speaker B: I really have appreciated being on your show. I think you know, as I said I, I when I was looking at you and I thought an enthusiasm that you bring to this, um, I knew that it would be an enjoyable and I think you know, mutual um, sharing of you know, your life as well, which is to me has been of a great interest and success.

Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And uh, I'm really grateful for those kind words and uh, grateful that you shared this time with me. Uh, it's been an honor and I look forward to hopefully more conversations with you and learning from you. Um, because I've really enjoyed this and uh, grateful I got to know you.

Speaker B: Thanks Adam.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, thank you. And if anybody wants to, wants uh, to learn more about Peter Bissnet, please get uh, by the book, count on me. And uh, you will learn great lessons from that about how to implement your values in your business. And uh, Peter Bissonnette on LinkedIn. Uh, and uh, follow him there and, and uh, and yeah, just check out whatever he's doing and thank you for listening to the show. If you got a lot from it by the way, and you think that somebody can benefit from this show, please share it with a friend. Get the word out so that we can help, help make businesses and family businesses better. We all. Rising tide lifts all ships. So let's uh, help each other. Thanks for joining us today. We'll see you next time.

Speaker B: Sat m.