Navigating Conflict Through Mediation in Family Businesses with Katie Kolon

Speaker A: Litigation is where we go when nothing else is working. But how do you avoid conflict within your business from getting to that costly point? Because if you've ever worked in a family business, you know how tempting it is to avoid the hard conversations until they explode. And that can be costly. And that's where my guest, Katie Cullen comes in. Her journey from attorney to mediator is all about navigating that conflict before the explosion. She shows us that conflict, when handled with intention and compassion, can actually strengthen relationships and unlock deeper trust. And that insight really hit home for me because I've seen firsthand how much damage silence can do in a family business. So if you're navigating tension, you're feeling stuck in patterns of misunderstanding or you're afraid of what might happen if you really say what's on your mind, this episode is for you. Be sure to hit. Subscribe for more fearless conversations about family, business and legacy so that we can both lean into this hard stuff together. Enjoy the episode. Strengthen the love, the legacy and the lifestyle in your family business. This is fearless family business. Well, welcome, Katie. I'm so glad you're here, uh, joining me today. Thanks for being here.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: I'm, um, excited to talk to you for a variety of reasons, but, you know, primarily, especially with regards to, to conflict and mediation and, and really navigating some of those difficult conversations, especially within family business. It's a, it's a, it's a big deal. And from your perspective, I can see how when you were, you know, practicing as an attorney, that you might have seen kind of the tail end of that when things get almost. When you're seeing kind of the last resort. Right from that, um, I'd love to hear, kind of maybe start with how that shaped your perspective and how you navigate conflict from the standpoint of, of really handling those conversations now.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I started as a, uh, plaintiff side employment law attorney. And so with those types of claims, and with a lot of claims, really, there are personal violations that are probably mostly what's motivating people. And all they know is the legal system and the civil process, which is money. And money is, is the only remedy for all of the harms that you might, or the, the violations you might have felt. And so it really falls short no matter how much money you get. And usually people expect that they're going to get a lot more money than they will, unfortunately. So, you know, it's, it's, I think, leaving litigation and then exploring, uh, more and becoming certified, becoming A mediator. It's just really showed me how much more possibility there is to heal those sorts of interpersonal wounds that happen when there's any kind of ongoing relationship, even if it's in the workplace and someone you don't like, there's still a relationship there. So um, things happen and a little bit of understanding can go a long way. But that's not something you usually get through litigation.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I feel like that's like, kind of like the uh, where, where we go when, when, when nothing else is working. Is that right? I mean, it's just like we don't want to get to that point, do we? We don't want to get to litigation.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, yeah. And so I'm curious to know kind of your, maybe your origin story how, um, you mentioned that you were on the plaintiff's side of employment law. Um, can you talk a little bit about what got you into that, how you got there and, and what you were doing on that side of the. Of. Of the. I guess the bar exam, so to speak?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, uh, well, I. In law school, you know, you need to find an internship when you. Yeah, I guess what drew me to law school is probably a longer story. But um, I grew up in a small rural town in Michigan and there's a lot of farm workers there. So I found an internship with um, a farm worker legal aid association. And my parents both actually worked with migrant, um, farm workers in various capacities. So, so it was just kind of a cool thing to be able to go to back home and do work in my community with people um, who really needed help and were being abused in various ways, not being paid or um, not being provided adequate or healthy housing. And so that kind of began this path into employment law. And I ended up with other jobs working with migrant farm workers. And then that expanded into all, you know, other kinds of workers rights and um, including discrimination and unemployment appeals. Um, but yeah, mostly all in the employment law area.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I imagine growing up in a small community like that you did. Did it feel like it was, it was close knit in, in that kind of environment? Did you feel like, like you had kind of that similar feel for what, what ah, a, ah, family would, would look like what that conflict was back then. I know you've met, um, I've heard kind of some of the, um, some of the stuff that you've put out there regarding, you know, how it's taught you tolerance, empathy and the value of that community. I'd love to expand on that and see, here's some of your thoughts on that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting because my family wasn't from that town. Um, and so a lot of people have generations of family and you know, the teachers are like, oh, I taught your father when he was in school and that kind of thing. So there wasn't quite as much of that. Um, and so we were kind of outsiders. We were outsiders in a lot of ways to the community, but still, um, everyone there, it's just, I mean. Yeah, growing up in a small town, you just like the door's always open. I never had a key to the house. Um, if some problem was happening, you just walk over and deal with it. Just walk over to someone's house and talk to them about it. And my parents still live there. They still, still, um, have that, you know, experience where they have neighbors all around and they may or may not get along with them ideologically, but they, they work well together or they don't, depending on how they um, what their interpersonal skills are, what their communication skills are. Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. I find that interesting that the, the dynamic around that small kind of community feel. And so you say your parents weren't originally from there. Where were they originally?

Speaker B: Detroit.

Speaker A: Okay, so they grew up in a big city, coming to kind of that small community.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. Okay, and, and from that perspective of what you saw, I mean, I think in, in, because I, I, I see that there may be this maybe kind of overlapping dynamic within a small community and what a family business might look like being multi generational, you know, having that like they've known each other for generations. Um, do you see any of the common themes there with regard to how that might overlap with, with how families interact and experience conflict or, or tension on that front?

Speaker B: Um, I think, I mean there's, there's definitely, I, I just mainly see the difference in, you know, those who have been there forever, like maybe that's the family and then those who come to work with it maybe. Um, and whether you feel more or less like an outsider, I guess really just depends on how well you can communicate and understand each other.

Speaker A: Yeah. How um, how would you navigate that? Or how did you, or did your parents maybe, um, navigate that feeling of being outside and trying to become in this community, so to speak? Uh, and I guess the reason I ask is because I feel like there may be outsiders, like an outside leader or uh, that that may come into a family business. It's already well established and it feels like it's already for lack Of a better word, you know, a tribe, a community. Uh, what's the. What was the mechanism for getting more, uh, involved in that community?

Speaker B: You know, I. I think it just happens because you're there and it is so small. I mean, I guess if you don't. If you're not involved at all, if you don't do anything, you're not participating in the community, then you wouldn't feel that way. But it's just a matter of participation and reaching out to others. And I mean, I guess I wasn't. I would reach out to people like the migrant farm workers. I was always talking, you know, curious about what brought them there. And, um, you know, the kids in school, sometimes they came in only speaking Spanish. And so I think my family is just kind of curious and open like that, interested in people. I mean, my dad was a social worker. My mom was a teacher, um, for kids with special ed, special needs. So I don't know, there's just kind of that sense of wanting to help and interact with people in my family that probably helped.

Speaker A: I like that. Yeah. So the feeling. And I think that. I feel like that may be a common theme within any kind of entry into any community is have a servant mind or at least be willing to serve in some capacity, add value and be curious. I really love that idea of curiosity. Uh, um, so that. And I think that's just what should be driving us to. To. To grow, um, and kind of maybe moving. Moving to the next kind of phase of. Of your life, you know, moving into that role as. As once you got into being that plaintiff's attorney. Can maybe. Can you talk about that, what that experience was like, and how that shaped where you're going today?

Speaker B: It was pretty frustrating at first. I mean, you go to law school and you have all these ideas, like, it's so grandiose, you know, and you're. You're taught these high standards, and you're held to high standards in law school. And then the world of actually practicing law can be totally different. I mean, I guess it probably depends on the type of law and the type of defendants and, you know, but the. I just remember my first time going to court with, uh, opposing counsel, and I had. We had a motion before the judge, and I had written my brief perfectly. And then the opposing counsel's brief and what he was doing didn't even follow civil procedure. It was, like, horribly written. And he just had a great relationship with the judge. So there you go. It's like the relationship is what mattered. And, um, As a new attorney, you know, you don't really have those relationships at all. And then you realize, oh, like all of these, all these other little things don't matter as much. It's kind of frustrating because you spent so much time and, and money and effort trying to master those things.

Speaker A: M. Do you feel like that's true within our broader judicial system as far as, and I'm not trying to get political or anything like that, but I'm just curious to know from the standpoint of someone who's been in it, you know, do you feel like that our judicial system is more inclined to be, be based on kind of that backroom deals, relationships, things like that, as opposed to really following the letter of the law? Uh, I don't know if that question even makes sense, but I'm just curious to know your thoughts on that.

Speaker B: I think it depends on where you're practicing and what level. Like, I think that was less so at the federal level. I practiced in both federal and state and local courts, so it's probably more at play on the local level. But then m. Again, I mean, if you're regularly before particular judges in federal court, you probably get to know them pretty well too. Um, I was kind of all over the place, so. So it's hard for me to say really.

Speaker A: Sure, sure. Yeah, it's um. Yeah, you hear both sides of it on the outside and you never know what's really true necessarily. Of course, anytime you're involved in litigation and something goes your way or the other way, it always feels, you know, like, well, yeah, that's unfair because it went to the, you know, favored the other person or what have you. But um, but uh, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that and so you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I just was one thing. I. Sorry, I just was.

Speaker A: Oh, no, please.

Speaker B: In relation to mediation, conflict resolution, um, versus the courts, like regardless of whether there's a relationship or not, when you go to court as a plaintiff or you know, as a defendant, like you're, you're losing control of what happens. You're placing that in the hands of someone else, whether they're gonna base their decisions more on, um, relationships or on following the law or, you know, even if it's a jury, you know, that's a whole other group of people that are gonna weigh in on your life, basically. So you lose a lot of that. You lose a lot of, you lose most of the control as well as the ability to tell your own story.

Speaker A: Mhm. Right. Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And uh, I appreciate the context there. Um, but. And, and so you kind of made a decision to depart from that world and, and move into more of the conflict mediation, you know, navigating that kind of conflict area. I'd love for you to talk about how that transition came to be and. Yeah, move into. Right. Kind of what you're doing now, helping, uh, family businesses and otherwise.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I, um, I didn't. It wasn't totally my choice. It was partially my choice. I lost my job after moving to Chicago. Um, it was grant funded. I worked in the non profit world and I didn't. It was middle of a recession and I also was kind of getting burned out and I didn't want to move back where I had more of a network and more relationships on the East Coast. So I, I stayed, um, and then pursued other opportunities for a while, ended up working in the corporate world. But when I, Right when I was losing that job that brought me here, I also got certified as a mediator and I started working and, um, volunteering with the center for Conflict Resolution. Then I became a certified coach with their training program as well. And I've been doing that ever since, for the past. Going on 14 years now. Um, and I first actually took a mediation training when I was getting my master's degree. I did a JDMA program in international relations. So they did a training for students to mediate other student disputes. So I first took mediation training not in law school, but in my master's program. But I never mediated there because I found out about it at the end of my time there. But that was my first sort of experience with it and I really liked it. And I think that stuck with me. And then we went to lots of mediations in litigation and everything settled. So coming to, getting training with the center for Conflict Resolution and starting to do those types of cases, which was a variety of cases, um, it just made me less interested, more, less and less interested in litigation as I saw these other ways to solve things.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. And so now that you're kind of moving away from that world of, of litigation where people come to you as that kind of last resort, where are you seeing people that are seeking out those kinds of services for conflict resolution? When do people come to you?

Speaker B: Um, they still come when there is some sort of pain point. I'm also networking with other advisors who probably see the need sooner to bring someone like me in, um, to reduce the risk of, you know, succession planning or deals or whatever. But when the clients come directly to Me, it's more like they're having problems with their business partnerships or, um, family dynamics. Um, yeah, I still mediate a variety of different things. Um, the cases that I mediate still for the center for Conflict Resolution mostly are court mandated, but there are also, um, people who just can come and ask. They want to have anything mediated, it doesn't have to be in court.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So we do get those types of cases as well.

Speaker A: Gotcha. And have you. And based on what you've seen in your world and when people come to you, what would your suggestion as far as people seeking out that mediation? When should they come to you? Because I imagine maybe they come to you a little late in the process, or maybe they don't. Maybe they're coming too early. Um, what do you think about that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to weigh in on what they should do. I mean, I think it would be great if people had access to this type of service and it was more of just commonly known and commonly used. But people are probably going to wait till they have a problem, a service problem. Um, unless they're, you know, unless they realize the value and they. The need for it in planning or, um, in just. Yeah. Facilitating important conversations that need to happen to be more productive at work or with your business.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what is the, uh. So as far as the process goes, like when. When people do come to somebody like yourself for mediation or, uh. And maybe conf. And our mediation and conflict resolution, are those the same thing? Are they different? Is there some kind of barrier there?

Speaker B: I kind of use both interchangeably, mostly because I think people associate mediation with something in litigation or some sort of conflict. That way it doesn't have to be, um. When I say mediation, I guess I'm. There is a problem that you're coming to fix. Something that everyone is invested in resolving. Whether or not that gets resolved is another question. But it's kind of focused around a particular problem. And it doesn't have to be even a legal issue. You can just have any. Any problem at all that you want to resolve. And then I guess I say facilitation when it's a little bit more broad. Like you might be facilitating family meetings or dialogues that are ongoing around what you want for the future and what your values are. And just all of those planning conversations, especially where they get more difficult. Um, you may need someone that comes in and facilitates all of those skills. Are conflict resolution skills that are used in either process.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So. And, um, what are the. What. What like, as far as, like, a process goes, um, if somebody does come to you for mediation, what. What is your role in that as far as how you serve the client? Is it an unbiased kind of perspective? Is it somebody. You're making the decision on their behalf? What does that look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, I practice facilitative and transformative styles of mediation mainly. Um, there's also evaluative. Um, and so I focus more on putting the parties or the people in conflict in the driver's seat of figuring out what's best for them and owning that going forward. So I not. I don't weigh in on what I think is best. I don't tell people what to do. I don't really even want to get into the facts because usually that just blows things up even more. Um, they may be relevant, too, at times. There's some facts that are relevant you need to know to work things out. But if you're spending too much time, you know, arguing over things that happened in the past, you're probably not going to move on from that. And mediation is much more future focused. So I try to keep people focused on the goal in the future, help them prioritize how they want to use their time. Um, I help them hear each other better by rephrasing things, summarizing, helping them identify for themselves and each other what's really important to them. And, and by me doing that and being like, another person saying the same thing in a different way, it helps people hear it multiple times and hear it differently and, um, hear it in ways they may not be able to from the person that they're upset with.

Speaker A: Yeah. Has there ever been any situations that have been just so, uh, tense and challenging that. That you just could not break through? Or. Or maybe they felt like it was just, um, you know, destined to fail? What, like, any experiences that you've had like that?

Speaker B: Oh, sure, yeah, plenty. I mean, that's the thing with mediation is, like, I don't. I can't control the outcome. People have to be willing to show up and participate in good faith and authentically. And even if they want to, it may be really hard, it may be harder than they imagined, and you just can't always get there in one session or maybe ever. But even if you can't, like, my job is to go through the process, ask the right questions, at least put them in their mind so they can think about it. And maybe in the future that'll help them get to where, wherever they need to be. But I've got plenty Of. Yeah. I mean, sure. It's. I. I'm, uh. You want me to think of one?

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: well, I mean, the. The last, like, family business sort of mediation I did was they were in litigation for a long time and, um, got sent to. To mediation by the courts, but very late in the process because they had already spent a lot of money and one party didn't even show up. Their partner did. And, um, the party who didn't show up had some personal issue that had happened with their family member who they entered into business with, and that could never be discussed. They didn't want to. They couldn't even show up to discuss it. So everyone who was there, the attorneys, the partner, the other side, they all wanted to settle. They saw the value of that. They were like, we're just bleeding money all over the place. We can't afford to keep going. Um, we're fighting over the valuation of each other's contributions, but, like, by the end of it, there's not gonna be any money left to pay anybody. Um, but we couldn't even have the discussion, so we weren't able to resolve it. So, I mean, that's just an extreme example of sort of someone not being able to participate. But when they do show up, if people are really stuck on their. What we call positions or they're like, doing something out of principle, that's, um, just a red flag for there's some personal harm there that needs to be resolved or talked about to really move. Move on. Otherwise, people are not going to act in what you would consider to be a rational way.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And I wonder, I mean, for families in particular, do you ever, ever make the recommendation that this is not going to be resolved here? Maybe you should seek therapy or. Or, uh.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is part of my job too. Um, is just to. To tell people, like, to end it. We're, you know, I. I don't want to hold people in this stressful conflict and dialogue for longer than they need to if it's not being productive.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's part of my responsibility also to cut it off.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, I like. I like the idea that you said there with productive conflict, because, I mean, I. I've seen enough in family business to know that, or any business to know that really problems or conflict can be good for family business or for. For business in general.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because it gives you an opportunity to grow. You have. You only grow through conflict. Um, and I, I. One of the. When I think of conflict, I tend to think of Patrick Lencioni's conflict continuum where you have the artificial harmony on one side, you have mean spirited conflict on another, and the goal is to kind of get more constructive towards the middle. Um, where you want to just balance that out, put the issue in front of you. Um, is that kind of like uh, have you seen more of one or the other as far as artificial harmony or mean spirited conflict? And how do you navigate that?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I think there's a lot of both on both sides of it and less so in the middle because people are afraid of conflict or they don't know how to handle it, um, healthily. So. Yeah, but I mean it's. Conflict is at the heart of all innovation and creativity and it's any, any point, any decision point can be, can be conflict or you could think of it that way. Um, so you really can't get away from it. And I, I try to get people to refrain, reframe how they think about, about conflict.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that. As far as like how to reframe it. Like if you're approaching a, uh, uh, you know, a company that, that's in conflict or a group of people that are in conflict, how would you suggest they, they approach that? Like maybe from start, maybe in a step by step basis. Is there, is there a reframing of it off the bat or you just getting curious? How does that work?

Speaker B: Um, I don't know if I can like reframe how people approach conflict without going through the process, but I think going through the process is what does it. Because you have to get people focused on what they really need, need and want, helping them identify that. And, and then you're identifying common shared interests. And usually when you take a step back from whatever's on the surface, the underlying things going on are, um, you have in common. And when you can see that and just realize that you, you find more connection with people and maybe a little bit more understanding that way and then you can hear them better. Um, you have more understanding for the differences in their ideas and how maybe you have the same value, but you, you think you didn't, but you do. And it's just expressed differently.

Speaker A: Yeah, I see that. Okay. Um, and you have, and speaking of kind of going through the process, you have a playbook or playbooks for this kind of thing and you're building out playbooks for how to navigate this. Can you share a little bit about that and maybe how people can approach that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I created this playbook, um, for people to be able to navigate this on their own and give them some more tools. And it's a four step process of first defining what the issue is, deciding if you even want to have the conversation with someone. Um, so that's a lot of like self reflection and questions and worksheets and then, um, inviting the person into conversation. So getting their buy in, how to do that, giving you a template and jointly coming up with that problem that you're going to tackle together. So it's always about changing the focus from against each other to against a common problem that you share. And that's the first agreement that you have. Um, and then, uh, the third step is actually sitting down, having the conversation. So going through a checklist and a process for that, setting the agenda, you know, setting just the logistics and then the conversation and then agreement, um, writing, if you do come to that, how to write, uh, a good agreement, solid agreement, and then reflect on what you learned. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, I like that first step, uh, in terms of maybe putting that problem or that issue in front of you instead of between you. Right. So, um, how, um, how, how do you go about that as far as like reframing people's perspectives in terms of reframing the issue that it's not about it being a personal issue between the two people. And maybe it is, but how do you reframe it as something that let's put this issue in front of you so you can actually attack the issue and not each other? Um, I just feel like. Yeah, I'm curious to know your thoughts.

Speaker B: I guess depending on the context you're in, you know, I mean, sure, there's going to be personal, personal issues that you might want to discuss, and those are probably driving the way that you're acting. But when you're looking at a goal, you're trying to do something together. And I guess that's also part of, is this even the right time or appropriate for a conversation? Like, is there any goal that you could possibly work on together? Are you in a business and something's not going right? Are you, you know, you just want to be able to show up to Thanksgiving dinner and not fight? Like that is a common goal that you can have, even though you have personal differences? Sure. Um, so thinking about, would the other person share this? Do I have this, or is this not someone who I'm going to interact with enough that there's anything there?

Speaker A: M. Is it? And that sounds kind of like it's like taking maybe the big, meaty, hairy issue and, and almost breaking it down into like smaller Bite sized things and saying, hey, let's take a look at this one first and maybe attack that one and put that one in front of you instead of taking the whole bite of the elephant at the time.

Speaker B: It could, I guess it could be broader though too. Just stepping back and just saying, you know, we need to be able to work together. Um, yeah, we need, you know, we're, we're both trying to make this business work and we're leaders and we have to set a good example. Um, because the way we're interacting is going to affect how other people uh, interact as well. You know, Um, I think there's, you can really take a step back and find broader goals.

Speaker A: Sure, that makes sense. You mentioned uh, you talked a little bit about succession earlier and how you kind of involved in, in that, in, in terms of this succession discussion. And I know that, that especially in family business can be a very um, tense and maybe conflict intensive discussion process to develop that plan and also execute on it. What phase of the, that uh, of the succession discussion are they? Are people usually bringing you in and, and what are some of the common themes that you're finding around that in terms of, of, of um, what people need to overcome in order to have a, you know, more a smoother transition?

Speaker B: Well, it seems like people approach succession planning usually later than when advisors think they should. So I don't know that there's the common time. But um, I mean common themes I think are, include like identity. What is, you know, each individual's identity? What do they want for it to be moving forward as they change roles? What are those roles and responsibilities? What's important to them? What do they want to do with their life? Like if you're retiring and this is, and you've built this whole business and this is a large part of your identity, what is that going to look like next? What is, what are the other things you, that are important to you so that you have a sense of meaning afterwards?

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: philanthropic goals, um, for the business or what the values are for the business that you want it to, to continue, um, for the business's legacy? Um, yeah, those are the ones that came on top of my mind and I was thinking about. I have. So I refer a lot to these books on dignity that I have here. So, um, dignity and its essential role in um, handling conflict, resolving conflict and then leading, leading with dignity. So these go through the 10 elements of dignity which I think are really helpful and I think in any um, succession planning or leadership conversation or if it's even um, you know, manager with employee, that's there's conflict there. Looking at these elements of dignity can really help. And then figuring out what ones might be violated or what, what do people need more of? Um, and so those include acceptance of identity, inclusion, safety, acknowledgement, recognition, um, fairness, benefit of the doubt, understanding, independence and accountability.

Speaker A: I've never heard the um, the concept of succession and kind of dignity used in the same context like that, in the same sentence. It's interesting to me, it's intriguing. Um, where did you, or how did you come to that conclusion that dignity was an important part of that succession planning?

Speaker B: Well, it's just an important part in, in conflict. Like these things are always, they always come up in any conflict and their basic human needs and I think as human needs and some of them go beyond like, I mean we have safety in here, but some of them go beyond like the really, really basic needs. They're like needs for becoming fully developed as a person or who you want to be. You know, so that exploring that is important I think for the planning and legacy and making sure that as people step into maybe new leadership roles that that is fulfilling who they want to be and not just like someone else's dream or a desire for power or whatever else might be at play.

Speaker A: Right, right. And so, and for you we're um, what's, what's next for you? What are you looking for as far as uh, as far as uh, who, who would be reaching out to you? Who, who are you looking for? What um, what type of business are you out to find?

Speaker B: M Probably just like small, medium sized businesses that um, are struggling with conversations, um, maybe stuck or avoiding conversations or people who feel like misunderstood but they want to maintain a connection through their family and make sure that that bond is there and reduce the risk of conflicts arising and damaging those relationships.

Speaker A: Right, great. So smaller businesses, medium sized businesses that are really maybe being more proactive about that idea of conflict or may experience me experiencing it right now. Um, that makes a lot of sense. And, and where can people find you?

Speaker B: So my website is mutual-ground.com and um, I'm also on various social media, but that's my website. You can also email me@infoutual-ground.com okay, excellent.

Speaker A: Yeah, so if, if you're listening to this and you are in that space where you're facing that conflict or you're, you see it kind of on the horizon or, or, or there's just curiosity around this, this idea, um, that conflict exists in every business and it should and maybe if you get better at it, uh, at navigating it, you'll have a more successful and aligned business. Um, you know, Katie Colon might be the person you want to call and, um, and, um, and. And. And learn more about this. So if that's you, uh, go to mutual-ground.com and, uh, and. And get, uh, more information there. And Katie, thank you so, so much for being here. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate all of your insights and your wisdom and, uh, giving us your time today.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. It was great talking to you. Great questions.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks. And everybody else out there, if you feel like you got a lot from this or, you know, another business that might be facing some of these challenges, share this episode with them and, uh, and put it out there. Getting the word out about family, business and how we can all succeed together only makes us all stronger. So thanks for joining us today. We'll see you next time.