Why Is Change at Work So Hard - Even When It’s Positive?

1 00:00:00,000 - > 00:00:05,519 Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, 2 00:00:05,519 - > 00:00:10,199 not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby. 3 00:00:10,199 - > 00:00:12,000 [COBY]: Did we lose a patient? 4 00:00:12,000 - > 00:00:14,880 [JAME: No, that's just my lunch. 5 00:00:14,880 - > 00:00:21,679 [C: Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And let's get 6 00:00:21,679 - > 00:00:29,359 started with a question. Why is change at work so hard and even when it's positive? 7 00:00:31,280 - > 00:00:37,920 I think the biggest reason, even, you know, so called positive change is really 8 00:00:37,920 - > 00:00:45,439 difficult, is that we tend to be so focused on the, that the thing that's changing or the process 9 00:00:45,439 - > 00:00:53,039 of change that we tend to neglect the impact that this change is going to have on people. 10 00:00:53,920 - > 00:01:00,640 McKinsey has long cited something like 70% of change programs fail to achieve their goals, 11 00:01:00,640 - > 00:01:08,959 which is crazy. and research constantly shows that the biggest barriers to successful change 12 00:01:08,959 - > 00:01:14,640 are usually people related. Right. They're things like lack of leadership support or 13 00:01:14,640 - > 00:01:22,560 communication, engagement, trust is a huge one, manager alignment and employee adoption. 14 00:01:22,560 - > 00:01:29,200 So in our conversation, I think, what I want to talk about is the different, 15 00:01:29,200 - > 00:01:35,359 some different kinds of change, but really spend most of our time talking about the people and 16 00:01:35,359 - > 00:01:43,719 the impact that different kinds of change have on people. Because change is neutral, people are not. 17 00:01:43,719 - > 00:01:49,439 Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think that, I think that we need to kind of really 18 00:01:49,439 - > 00:01:54,560 just kind of put in some, some clarity around the fact that organizational change, 19 00:01:54,560 - > 00:02:02,640 when it doesn't go well, it tends to be a human system problem, not just like a failed HR project 20 00:02:02,640 - > 00:02:08,479 or initiative or. It's not always about leadership failure. Right. Because like we, 21 00:02:08,479 - > 00:02:13,520 again, we have to look at things like the psychological responses of, of the people. 22 00:02:13,520 - > 00:02:17,280 We have to look at things like the cultural norms that the changes are happening in, 23 00:02:17,280 - > 00:02:24,000 but also things like operational hab. Because part of it is, is we need to know what the environment 24 00:02:24,000 - > 00:02:29,520 that we're bringing the change into is like to know whether or not the change that we're trying 25 00:02:29,520 - > 00:02:34,560 to make will become sustainable or will end up damaging the organization in the long term. 26 00:02:34,560 - > 00:02:44,159 Yeah, it's, we've seen it so often, going into organizations and it doesn't 27 00:02:39,759 - > 00:02:51,919 matter what really what type of change, whether it's change that's been forced on them 28 00:02:44,159 - > 00:02:59,039 through crisis or plan to change that they are, you know, as part of their actual business 29 00:02:51,919 - > 00:03:06,960 strategy where it breaks down, tends to be in, buy in. Right. It's bringing people along with us. 30 00:02:59,039 - > 00:03:14,000 It's letting people know why we are making these changes, what the impact is and most importantly, 31 00:03:06,960 - > 00:03:20,879 how it's going to actually improve their work, their workload or their work systems. Right. 32 00:03:14,000 - > 00:03:26,719 a Lot of the resistance to change, like the research that we've seen time and time again 33 00:03:21,520 - > 00:03:32,639 talking about things like the, you know, lack of employee adoption tends to be born out of fear. 34 00:03:26,719 - > 00:03:38,639 Right? It's fear of change. It's fear of, well, if this goes through, what is this going to mean 35 00:03:32,639 - > 00:03:42,960 for me? I'm comfortable and I know what I have. I know my expectations currently. I know the current 36 00:03:38,639 - > 00:03:51,840 system that we're using or the current tools that we're using. And that change without a, without 37 00:03:42,960 - > 00:03:58,080 taking the time to generate buy in tends to create fear. And now many people may not articulate it 38 00:03:51,840 - > 00:04:04,680 that way in terms of being afraid of the change because it's not that type of fear, but it's the 39 00:03:58,080 - > 00:04:04,680 fear of loss. Right? Losing something comfortable. 40 00:04:04,680 - > 00:04:11,919 Absolutely. And I mean, you know, the like again, I'm gonna want to, to no surprise, 41 00:04:11,919 - > 00:04:17,120 dig into kind of the, the psychological impacts of change and kind of really. 42 00:04:17,120 - > 00:04:20,279 I know it's like, well, let's do something different for this episode. 43 00:04:20,279 - > 00:04:22,600 [JAMES]: Yeah, let's have Coby talk about psychology. 44 00:04:22,600 - > 00:04:27,120 Nerd. But I mean there is pieces of it that we need to look at. Kind of 45 00:04:27,120 - > 00:04:30,560 like the similarities between what people go through with change and the idea of kind 46 00:04:30,560 - > 00:04:34,879 of grief and loss and and all the different kind of things too. Because I mean you're, 47 00:04:34,879 - > 00:04:43,279 you're 100% right about the fact that, you know, the, the, the change needs to have the 48 00:04:43,279 - > 00:04:49,600 buy in. But it's also about trying to make sure that people's psychological needs are being met 49 00:04:49,600 - > 00:04:54,639 in order for them to be able to buy in. So those, all the different kinds of it too. 50 00:04:54,639 - > 00:04:58,399 [JAME: But the conditions, like there's conditions that need to be, 51 00:04:58,399 - > 00:05:02,480 that need to exist in order for buying to happen. Right? I mean, 52 00:05:02,480 - > 00:05:07,040 yeah. Unsurprisingly we're going to get back to the same question that we end up asking all 53 00:05:07,040 - > 00:05:16,000 the time. What needs to exist first in order for this to be successful? And such a simple question 54 00:05:16,000 - > 00:05:23,920 really is helpful in deconstructing virtually any problem we've come across in the workplace. 55 00:05:23,920 - > 00:05:27,839 Well, I mean we talked, I can't, I think it was a few episodes ago we talked about 56 00:05:28,879 - > 00:05:35,360 the top of our hierarchy, the strive and the, and the successes that live in there. One of 57 00:05:35,360 - > 00:05:43,759 the successes is change. Having a organization that has climbed the hierarchy, has resolved 58 00:05:43,759 - > 00:05:47,040 job dissatisfaction, has psychological safety, people feel that they belong, 59 00:05:47,040 - > 00:05:51,920 has created engagement and m. Motivation and enthusiasm in employees and is now striving 60 00:05:51,920 - > 00:05:58,399 for optimal performance to look at change and is a resilient organization that can handle 61 00:05:58,399 - > 00:06:03,360 the change that has the buy in that be able, that gives people the psychological needs to 62 00:06:03,360 - > 00:06:08,639 be able to manage all these pieces. That's the kind of thing that we need to get to. 63 00:06:08,639 - > 00:06:15,839 And the thing is that sometimes when change is strategic, that should be the plan built 64 00:06:15,839 - > 00:06:23,279 along M. When the change is something that is kind of happening to you, knowing where 65 00:06:23,279 - > 00:06:30,240 your deficits are in the hierarchy and kind of in the psychological impact of employees is going to 66 00:06:30,240 - > 00:06:35,680 be helpful to help you navigate that. But it is important to just know where it is that you're, 67 00:06:35,680 - > 00:06:38,399 that you are if this is going to something that you're going to be going through. And 68 00:06:38,399 - > 00:06:43,519 honestly if you work in this modern world, you are going to be going through change at some point. 69 00:06:43,519 - > 00:06:50,079 Well, I mean we all have been constantly in our professional lives and it seems to be 70 00:06:50,079 - > 00:06:57,759 accelerating in a lot of ways like AI adoption. Not to get, get us too far off track, but that is 71 00:06:57,759 - > 00:07:03,360 already causing a lot of changes to the way that we approach work, to the way that work is thought 72 00:07:03,360 - > 00:07:10,160 of, to the way that we individually do our jobs. But like it's having significant ripple effects 73 00:07:10,160 - > 00:07:19,839 and it's going to continue to cause significant disruptions. So if you want to position yourself, 74 00:07:19,839 - > 00:07:28,560 your company, your organization in a way that is going to help you either pivot, adopt, 75 00:07:28,560 - > 00:07:38,720 more quickly or change and respond to you know, new and changing conditions, understanding how to 76 00:07:38,720 - > 00:07:45,199 kind of bring people along with you and manage not just the process of adding something new 77 00:07:45,199 - > 00:07:51,920 or doing something different, but generating that buy in and establishing the expectations 78 00:07:51,920 - > 00:08:00,240 and really working through the people side of change is how that will be. That will position 79 00:08:00,240 - > 00:08:06,720 you very well for being able to weather the many storms that come at us as business owners. 80 00:08:06,720 - > 00:08:11,519 Yeah. So I think it's important for us to kind of break down the three different 81 00:08:11,519 - > 00:08:17,120 buckets that you and I see most change fall into. So again, this is not, this is kind of where like 82 00:08:17,120 - > 00:08:22,639 90% of all change usually is, is because of one of these three things. So let's just outline 83 00:08:22,639 - > 00:08:28,480 those three things because it's important to recognize just like, just like the question asked, 84 00:08:28,480 - > 00:08:33,120 why is it so difficult even when it's positive? So we need to talk about change that are positive, 85 00:08:33,120 - > 00:08:39,200 that are negative. But because again it all has, there's a lot of similarities to the psychological 86 00:08:39,200 - > 00:08:45,039 impact of it and kind of how it, how it rolled out operationally. So the three different types 87 00:08:45,039 - > 00:08:50,240 of change, three buckets that we referred, we refer to them as is. The first one is growth. 88 00:08:50,240 - > 00:08:53,919 And this is, happens when organizations are Trying to scale, they're trying to expand, 89 00:08:53,919 - > 00:08:58,879 trying to capture new markets or new locations. That's usually the good kind of change, right? 90 00:08:58,879 - > 00:09:01,759 [JAMES]: Yeah. I mean from an organizational perspective that's 91 00:09:01,759 - > 00:09:06,799 a good thing. You maybe you are entering a new market or you're adding a new location, 92 00:09:06,799 - > 00:09:11,679 or even you're just adopting new software that's going to allow for your operations 93 00:09:11,679 - > 00:09:16,600 to scale and grow. Right. Generally considered to be positive outcomes. 94 00:09:16,600 - > 00:09:23,360 Yeah, absolutely. Another kind of change that again we see on the regular is 95 00:09:24,000 - > 00:09:29,840 what we call blending. And that's usually mergers, usually acquisitions. It's amalgamations. It's the 96 00:09:29,840 - > 00:09:34,799 idea of taking two organizations and kind of, kind of like shuffling the cards together and having 97 00:09:34,799 - > 00:09:40,240 them kind of become one. Blending cultures, blending workflows, blending customer bases, 98 00:09:40,240 - > 00:09:45,840 all those kind of pieces like that. And that's often strategic, often intentional, 99 00:09:45,840 - > 00:09:53,440 but is probably a bit more neutral, both good and bad. Kind of how it's viewed and seen, if you're 100 00:09:53,440 - > 00:09:58,826 the one initiating the merger usually is positive. If you're the one being merged upon, usually. 101 00:09:58,826 - > 00:10:01,519 [JAMES]: Yeah. Like this is, this is the thing with you, 102 00:10:01,519 - > 00:10:06,000 know, ascribing positive or negative to change. Like again, 103 00:10:06,000 - > 00:10:12,320 I, I don't see change as inherently good or bad. It's. Change is, it just is. 104 00:10:12,320 - > 00:10:13,200 [COBY]: Yeah. 105 00:10:13,200 - > 00:10:19,360 It's how we perceive that change that determines whether it's positive or negative. 106 00:10:19,360 - > 00:10:25,840 If I'm a business owner and I'm acquiring a new business, and absorbing it into my operations, 107 00:10:25,840 - > 00:10:31,919 that I'm going to look at this as a positive. Right? It's part of my acquisition, strategy. It's 108 00:10:31,919 - > 00:10:39,919 how I plan on scaling and growing my business. but that exact same situation is going to be 109 00:10:39,919 - > 00:10:45,840 viewed very, very differently from employees who have to, who are going through the process, 110 00:10:45,840 - > 00:10:52,559 who are wondering what does this mean for my job? If we are. Whether you are being acquired 111 00:10:52,559 - > 00:10:58,720 or acquiring another company, there's going to be duplications, right. Redundancies, very 112 00:10:58,720 - > 00:11:10,000 often there's job losses. So this is where, like this is why so many times we fail to successfully 113 00:11:10,000 - > 00:11:15,679 implement change. Because we don't think about other people's perceptions. We think from my 114 00:11:15,679 - > 00:11:21,000 perception or for the organization, this is a good thing, therefore people should be happy about it. 115 00:11:21,000 - > 00:11:30,399 [COB: Yeah. Right. And then the third type of change is crisis. and 116 00:11:30,399 - > 00:11:35,159 this is one that I think we are a little more familiar with than we'd like to be. 117 00:11:35,159 - > 00:11:38,399 [JAMES]: Oh, it's hitting a little close to home for me. 118 00:11:38,399 - > 00:11:42,000 [COBY]: But I mean crisis is often the category that 119 00:11:42,000 - > 00:11:45,759 we refer to. Things like when there's Downsizing, when there's a disruption, 120 00:11:45,759 - > 00:11:50,720 when there's instability, when there's, a lot of resignations due to scandals, 121 00:11:50,720 - > 00:11:55,399 when there's major incidences like, oh, I don't know, fires and stuff like that. 122 00:11:55,399 - > 00:11:59,679 Like being kicked out of one office and having the other one burned down. Yeah, right. 123 00:11:59,679 - > 00:12:01,200 [COBY]: Yeah. Not that, you know, anything about those, 124 00:12:01,200 - > 00:12:04,879 but not that I. No, no, let's move on. 125 00:12:04,879 - > 00:12:09,840 But yeah, so. So again, like, you know, and again, crisis is almost always a 126 00:12:09,840 - > 00:12:14,240 negative change. Even when, like, you know, when there's leadership transition due to, 127 00:12:14,240 - > 00:12:20,000 you know, scandal, often the transition out is a positive, is a net gain. The, 128 00:12:20,000 - > 00:12:26,399 the, you know, all the baggage that goes along with it tends to just make it awful, 129 00:12:26,399 - > 00:12:31,679 and hard on people and everything else like that too. But I think that again, it's important for 130 00:12:31,679 - > 00:12:36,399 us to kind of recognize that there are again, the. Those three buckets are usually where we 131 00:12:36,399 - > 00:12:41,679 see most things fall into. And you listening, if you're experiencing change, it's likely 132 00:12:41,679 - > 00:12:45,440 somewhere within those three buckets of, or, or kind of a crossover of the two, depending on. 133 00:12:45,440 - > 00:12:49,960 [J: They're general enough that we can toss, most scenarios into it. 134 00:12:49,960 - > 00:12:53,840 Yeah, but. But the thing is like, you know, like, again, to kind of describe the 135 00:12:53,840 - > 00:12:59,919 differences between them. Growth kind of stretches your systems and stretches your, kind of the, 136 00:12:59,919 - > 00:13:06,159 the work that you're doing and, and kind of adding more to it. Blending usually collides systems and 137 00:13:06,159 - > 00:13:11,919 identities, and it's usually a bit of a mashup and crisis is a shock to the systems and usually kind 138 00:13:11,919 - > 00:13:17,120 of majorly disrupts them. So again, there's, you know, these are the types of things that again, 139 00:13:17,120 - > 00:13:22,480 we see a lot in the work that we do. And likely you listening, have experienced one, 140 00:13:22,480 - > 00:13:28,720 if not all three of these, in your professional career. And you can probably agree with the 141 00:13:28,720 - > 00:13:34,799 general statement that we're making that all three of them are stressful, all three of them require, 142 00:13:34,799 - > 00:13:40,960 you know, have a major impact on you and your wellness and all those around you. And you know, 143 00:13:40,960 - > 00:13:47,840 whether they're good or whether they're, you know, bad, they all have some type of effect 144 00:13:47,840 - > 00:13:51,600 that can cause change. Fatigue and that can cause all kinds of like, you know, 145 00:13:51,600 - > 00:13:56,320 even kind of negative behaviors of people going through all of this sort of stuff. Burnout, 146 00:13:56,320 - > 00:13:59,200 exhaustion, those types of things are all different. They're all tough. 147 00:13:59,200 - > 00:14:03,039 [: Well, and because there's so much uncertainty that comes with change, 148 00:14:03,039 - > 00:14:10,000 even when we go through it, like, even assuming we do things properly, from our perspective. 149 00:14:10,000 - > 00:14:15,799 Properly. Right. We've gone through the processes we are communicating early, we're generating buy 150 00:14:15,799 - > 00:14:21,600 in, we are articulating what we're doing, why we're doing it, how it's going to, you know, how 151 00:14:21,600 - > 00:14:28,480 we anticipate this, rolling out, how we anticipate it, you know, having a positive impact on 152 00:14:28,480 - > 00:14:36,000 workflows and on staffing, all of those processes that we talk about, there's still uncertainty. 153 00:14:36,000 - > 00:14:36,840 [COBY]: Yeah. 154 00:14:36,840 - > 00:14:41,360 [JAME: Right. Because until the actual change happens, until we're 155 00:14:41,360 - > 00:14:45,519 actually on the other side of it and we start working through all the kinks and bugs and 156 00:14:46,159 - > 00:14:50,960 frustrations that come with trying anything new, there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty that 157 00:14:50,960 - > 00:14:57,759 goes along with change. And uncertainty is exhausting. It's like, it's why, 158 00:14:57,759 - > 00:15:02,320 like it's part of why people get stuck in their comfort zone. Right. Because it, it's comfortable, 159 00:15:02,320 - > 00:15:11,519 it's easy. It's where I feel that I can sit and rest and do my work and just. I don't 160 00:15:11,519 - > 00:15:20,639 have to worry as much. And when you lose that, the uncertainty or that loss is like. Well, I mean I, 161 00:15:20,639 - > 00:15:24,720 I can speak from experience. I mean we were joking and laughing a little bit when we were talking 162 00:15:24,720 - > 00:15:30,320 about crisis because we are currently supporting an organization that has been experiencing a 163 00:15:30,320 - > 00:15:38,879 tremendous amount of it. and I will tell you it is exhausting, because of the change to routines and 164 00:15:38,879 - > 00:15:49,519 it is stressful on everybody. like these, these things have serious psychological effects on our 165 00:15:49,519 - > 00:15:57,120 people. And we need to recognize the effect that that change has. If we can label it, 166 00:15:57,120 - > 00:16:01,559 then we can understand it. And if we can understand it then we can work to resolve it. 167 00:16:01,559 - > 00:16:08,399 Right, Absolutely. And and so, so again like m. The thing that we want to, want to get 168 00:16:08,399 - > 00:16:15,279 into is like we will talk a little bit about kind of our, our change management evolved methodology 169 00:16:15,279 - > 00:16:19,360 that we use when we're trying to initiate organizational change. we talked about it before. 170 00:16:19,360 - > 00:16:23,440 We have, we've done at least one, if not a couple episodes. We've kind of dug into it deeply. So 171 00:16:23,440 - > 00:16:28,960 I'll put those episodes references in the show notes. But high level, largely it's about four 172 00:16:28,960 - > 00:16:35,519 things. It's about, we say it's changing minds, changing thinking, changing actions and changing 173 00:16:35,519 - > 00:16:42,320 how you measure success. And the changing minds part is the idea of you need to generate, buy 174 00:16:42,320 - > 00:16:48,480 in and, and get people on your side and get, and be providing them what they need psychologically 175 00:16:48,480 - > 00:16:54,000 for the change before any change starts to happen. It's that, it's the, it's the pregame campaign 176 00:16:54,000 - > 00:16:57,279 where you kind of like, you know, you're, you're you're, you're going out there and you're selling 177 00:16:57,279 - > 00:17:02,320 it and you're making sure that people kind of are prepared for it before you do anything. 178 00:17:02,320 - > 00:17:07,839 And then it's a matter of changing thinking, changing how you do the work, changing how you are 179 00:17:07,839 - > 00:17:14,079 talking about the, the types of systems and things that you're doing, getting, adopting new language 180 00:17:14,079 - > 00:17:19,519 but also being aware of the messy, uncomfortable transitional pieces that kind of come when you 181 00:17:19,519 - > 00:17:26,559 are in the, in the change process. It kind of normalizing what, you know, normalizing the 182 00:17:26,559 - > 00:17:29,680 uncomfortable and awkwardness and just, and just letting people be aware of that, changing that 183 00:17:29,680 - > 00:17:36,720 thinking is the idea that comfort and what was, and what, what you used to have was fine. But, 184 00:17:37,359 - > 00:17:41,160 but the new is going to be better. It's going to be better for you, it's me better for everybody. 185 00:17:41,160 - > 00:17:45,680 And it also involves like this is the time period where you have to extend a 186 00:17:45,680 - > 00:17:52,640 little bit more understanding or grace. Because like we said change can be stressful and things 187 00:17:52,640 - > 00:17:57,359 aren't going to go right all the time and people are going to be experiencing higher 188 00:17:57,359 - > 00:18:02,880 levels of stress or anxiety which is going to present itself in different ways. Maybe 189 00:18:02,880 - > 00:18:09,839 people are a little bit more short tempered, quicker to react to things, on an emotional 190 00:18:09,839 - > 00:18:15,359 basis. so it does require from a leadership perspective more understanding and grace. 191 00:18:15,359 - > 00:18:20,160 Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and that's all part of the changing thinking 192 00:18:20,160 - > 00:18:27,759 is that changing what normal typical is, has, has to be, be part of that change too. And then, 193 00:18:27,759 - > 00:18:33,359 and that's all kind of the, the ramp up to the actual. Almost like the tipping point where you 194 00:18:33,359 - > 00:18:38,640 are now in the new way of doing things. You tip you, you cross that precipice and now you're into 195 00:18:38,640 - > 00:18:42,960 changing actions. Things are different. You are doing things differently. You are using the new 196 00:18:42,960 - > 00:18:48,880 systems. You are kind of like under the guise of the new leader. You are in kind of you're using 197 00:18:48,880 - > 00:18:54,079 the new SOPs, whatever it is that that change has initiated and you're doing it and you're asking 198 00:18:54,079 - > 00:18:59,119 for help and you're not, you know, and again and you're still in that awkward learning phase, 199 00:18:59,119 - > 00:19:03,039 but you're developing some mastery of it and you're helping others and all those other kinds 200 00:19:03,039 - > 00:19:08,640 of pieces like that too. And then the last one is changing how you measure success. We have to 201 00:19:08,640 - > 00:19:15,920 accept that the old ways are gone. So we can't hold ourselves to the old standards, to the old, 202 00:19:15,920 - > 00:19:20,079 kind of like goal posts and those kind of things too is that we have to completely know 203 00:19:20,079 - > 00:19:26,720 what that new process and those New outcomes are going to be and then that be how we now 204 00:19:26,720 - > 00:19:30,559 look at success. Success has to be different and look different and measured differently. 205 00:19:30,559 - > 00:19:37,759 And this is kind of the bookends of like we, when, when talking about why change 206 00:19:37,759 - > 00:19:43,920 fails. Like I spend more a lot of time identifying the buy in piece. But the changing measurements 207 00:19:43,920 - > 00:19:52,240 of success is the other bookend to why change tends to fail so substantially. Because people 208 00:19:52,240 - > 00:19:58,960 will default to the actions that they are being measured upon. Right? If you do not change the way 209 00:19:58,960 - > 00:20:08,559 that you measure success after the change happens. If people, if, if people are still evaluated 210 00:20:09,680 - > 00:20:14,720 based on the old system, then they are going to default to using the old system. 211 00:20:14,720 - > 00:20:15,400 [COBY]: Right? 212 00:20:15,400 - > 00:20:20,240 Because that is what they are being evaluated on. Because that if they 213 00:20:20,240 - > 00:20:27,200 don't then in their minds they are not being successful in their role. Right? We have to, 214 00:20:27,200 - > 00:20:34,160 as we evolve and change our, whatever it is, you know, it doesn't matter. There has to be, 215 00:20:34,160 - > 00:20:40,880 there are changes to how, what success looks like that have to come along with us. And if we don't 216 00:20:40,880 - > 00:20:48,960 then we are just shooting ourselves in the foot because people are not going to do new processes, 217 00:20:48,960 - > 00:20:57,160 new new actions if those actions are not what they are being rewarded for or measured upon. 218 00:20:57,160 - > 00:21:04,000 Right. Like one of the ways that we see this fail so spectacularly is when the like when 219 00:21:04,000 - > 00:21:11,599 the outcomes, business metrics, cycle what is still quarterly, that the, the, your efficiency, 220 00:21:11,599 - > 00:21:17,359 your productivity is still measured quarterly and you're going through change and people are not 221 00:21:17,359 - > 00:21:21,920 adopting the new change because everything slows down when you go through a new process. If you're, 222 00:21:21,920 - > 00:21:28,000 if you're in the middle of a merger that impacts so much of your mental ability, 223 00:21:28,000 - > 00:21:33,440 so much of your workflow is disrupted and if you're still being held to kind of the 224 00:21:33,440 - > 00:21:39,759 quarterly outcomes but you're you know, but you're, but again the whole point of this 225 00:21:39,759 - > 00:21:44,799 is to create more of a strategic long term play. Then if you're being measured in the short term, 226 00:21:44,799 - > 00:21:48,319 but you're, but the change is supposed to prioritize the long term. How will 227 00:21:48,319 - > 00:21:54,160 you ever accept the long term new change if you're still being measured quarterly, right? 228 00:21:54,160 - > 00:21:57,839 You're either not going to put the proper time, energy and effort into 229 00:21:57,839 - > 00:22:02,559 ensuring that the change is successful because you're still looking at, you know, 230 00:22:02,559 - > 00:22:06,640 how am I going to make it through this next evaluation period, right? 231 00:22:06,640 - > 00:22:12,160 [COB: Yeah, absolutely. So, so, so again like the things that most, 232 00:22:12,160 - > 00:22:15,279 most change management processes, I mean there is a bunch of different change management 233 00:22:15,279 - > 00:22:18,799 methodologies. I mean change management evolved is ours and the one that we always use and the one 234 00:22:18,799 - > 00:22:22,960 we've had great success with. But it's because, like you said, it's because of the two bookends. 235 00:22:22,960 - > 00:22:29,519 Because most change management processes start at the changing thinking phase where you start to, 236 00:22:29,519 - > 00:22:34,079 adopt the new, the new language and new pieces and then end at the end of the changing actions. 237 00:22:34,079 - > 00:22:38,319 [JA: It's, hey, we've got a new system that we're doing and here's the new 238 00:22:38,960 - > 00:22:42,480 language, that you have to use, here's the new actions that have to go through, 239 00:22:42,480 - > 00:22:47,599 here's the new software that we are implementing. have fun. 240 00:22:47,599 - > 00:22:51,759 Yeah. And, and we made the change and we're done. And that's usually how, 241 00:22:51,759 - > 00:22:55,759 how it goes, which is why it's, it blows up and fails so spectacular. Whether again, 242 00:22:55,759 - > 00:22:59,599 whether it's good change around growth, whether it's kind of that blended change 243 00:22:59,599 - > 00:23:06,640 around an acquisition or a bad change around kind of like the idea of, adapting to a disruption. 244 00:23:06,640 - > 00:23:11,039 And it's because they, it's because they miss the two bookends which are the, 245 00:23:11,039 - > 00:23:14,720 which are the vital parts. Setting the stage beforehand, make sure everyone's resilient and 246 00:23:14,720 - > 00:23:19,519 ready for it. And then changing how we measure success to reflect all the work that we've, 247 00:23:19,519 - > 00:23:22,640 that we've gone through and those usually where the biggest failures happen. 248 00:23:22,640 - > 00:23:31,359 Yeah. Maybe just to last point on this, because it may not like, let's take the crisis 249 00:23:31,359 - > 00:23:37,440 example. Right. I mentioned that, you know, client we're supporting has gone through some, crisis. 250 00:23:37,440 - > 00:23:45,440 And one of those is that one of their offices literally caught on fire. Success changed. How 251 00:23:45,440 - > 00:23:51,519 we measure success for staff changed immediately. Right. It was no longer showing up at the office 252 00:23:51,519 - > 00:23:56,960 because there was none. Right. It was, you know, once we had our temporary solution in place, it 253 00:23:56,960 - > 00:24:03,200 was, we had to change what a successful day looked like. What does success look like in the week? 254 00:24:03,200 - > 00:24:10,319 Because everything had been disrupted. We could not hold people to the old standard because it 255 00:24:10,319 - > 00:24:16,559 would not be fair to hold them to the old standard because we don't have the old office. Right. So 256 00:24:16,559 - > 00:24:23,599 it's the idea that as things change, whether it's good, bad, neutral, whether it's crisis growth, 257 00:24:23,599 - > 00:24:29,920 whether it's opportunity, there will be things that need to change in how we evaluate success. 258 00:24:29,920 - > 00:24:34,559 Right. Well, and even on the other side, on the growth, a, client that we help 259 00:24:34,559 - > 00:24:39,519 go through orientation restructuring to allow them to grow and expand. One of the ways that 260 00:24:39,519 - > 00:24:44,160 their management teams kind of measured success, but how well that their supervisors and their 261 00:24:44,160 - > 00:24:52,079 teams were doing was kind of how few kind of like, questions and like, and kind of like, 262 00:24:53,599 - > 00:24:59,279 how, how. How much uncertainty that was, was navigated. So, like, you know, if they. 263 00:24:59,279 - > 00:25:02,400 Questions they brought forward or, you know, because they thought, you know, 264 00:25:02,400 - > 00:25:07,400 if they were asking fewer questions, then they were more comfortable and confident goals. 265 00:25:07,400 - > 00:25:11,920 Right? So almost like shorter meetings were assigned, things were going well, but then, 266 00:25:11,920 - > 00:25:16,480 but then that had to be dropped. As soon as we started implementing new SOPs and implementing new 267 00:25:16,480 - > 00:25:22,640 policies and trying to streamline processes, then it became more about how long the meetings were or 268 00:25:22,640 - > 00:25:26,640 need to actually become a measurement of success because they were digging into the minutia and 269 00:25:26,640 - > 00:25:30,559 they were. And they were talking through scenarios and they were. And those kind of things too. So 270 00:25:30,559 - > 00:25:34,240 how much kind of help that they were seeking, how much mentoring they were seeking, those all 271 00:25:34,240 - > 00:25:39,279 became new, new structures for the new stuff. And that, that had to change too. So, I mean, 272 00:25:39,279 - > 00:25:44,960 it is something that, you know, it is something that is so often over. Miss or sorry, overlooked 273 00:25:44,960 - > 00:25:50,240 and missed because we just, you know, don't put the thought into. We think, we think once that 274 00:25:50,240 - > 00:25:53,519 once the new, Once the tipping point happens and the new change is implemented, we're done. 275 00:25:53,519 - > 00:25:56,880 And that's because measurements of success are the formal measurements, 276 00:25:56,880 - > 00:26:00,240 but they're also our informal expectations, right? 277 00:26:00,240 - > 00:26:05,039 Absolutely. All right. So I actually want, I think we need to get into some of the 278 00:26:05,039 - > 00:26:08,799 psychological components of all this stuff, because like we say those are, those are our 279 00:26:08,799 - > 00:26:12,960 processes of change. I think we'll refer to them as. We're talking about psychological pieces too. 280 00:26:12,960 - > 00:26:19,279 But it is important to know how much kind of like, mental impact that this really does have, on us. 281 00:26:19,279 - > 00:26:22,880 And I think one of the first things that I want to talk about, and you kind of alluded to this a 282 00:26:22,880 - > 00:26:27,680 little bit earlier on, is one of the things that really hurts us when any kind of change, again, 283 00:26:27,680 - > 00:26:35,519 good, bad or mixed, is the loss of predictability. Because, I mean, it really does increase our 284 00:26:35,519 - > 00:26:41,599 anxiety. It moves into kind of the cognitive load that we are carrying because it's about, 285 00:26:41,599 - > 00:26:47,440 you know, one of the. Something that really kind of has been validated with a lot of studies around 286 00:26:47,440 - > 00:26:55,519 change is how impactful uncertainty is as being a psychological stressor. And, And then it's 287 00:26:55,519 - > 00:27:01,119 something that really needs to be addressed. Just people are moving. Again, this speaks a little bit 288 00:27:01,119 - > 00:27:05,200 to comfort zones, but it's more about, about that sense of predictability when it's predictable our 289 00:27:05,200 - > 00:27:08,720 anxiety is low because we know what's coming when every day is going to be. Who knows 290 00:27:08,720 - > 00:27:12,240 what's going to happen. That's when Our brains have to work harder just to get, just to get 291 00:27:12,240 - > 00:27:16,480 through the day well and think about how many times we talk about and 292 00:27:16,480 - > 00:27:23,599 rant about consistency. Yeah, right. Consistency in consistent expectations, 293 00:27:23,599 - > 00:27:29,839 consistency in how managers approach things. Like we talk about like consistency is one of the, 294 00:27:29,839 - > 00:27:37,440 the core factors of the workplace that influences everything else. And so like we've talked for 295 00:27:37,440 - > 00:27:44,960 years about how important it is to have some consistency because it like it provides that 296 00:27:44,960 - > 00:27:50,480 predictability, it gives, it allows people to know what they are walking into with confidence. 297 00:27:50,480 - > 00:27:59,440 So when you lose that either through, you know, whatever type of change, it, it is stressful. 298 00:27:59,440 - > 00:28:05,680 Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is that, you know, the, the impact that it has kind of on, 299 00:28:05,680 - > 00:28:13,279 on our like, you know, on our cognitive load, on just our the amount of processing it takes for 300 00:28:13,279 - > 00:28:20,480 us as you get through the day, it also impacts how we kind of process what is happening to 301 00:28:20,480 - > 00:28:25,599 us. So going back to what you said earlier about, about change is neutral, but people aren't. That, 302 00:28:25,599 - > 00:28:31,200 that is such a good statement because the idea of, is if you think about something we talked 303 00:28:31,200 - > 00:28:34,319 about in episode a little, we did earlier this season where we talked about why am 304 00:28:34,319 - > 00:28:39,519 I so exhausted after work every day, we talked about the cognitive appraisal theory. And this 305 00:28:39,519 - > 00:28:48,319 is the idea that what happens to us is somewhat neutral, but it's how we appraise the situation, 306 00:28:48,319 - > 00:28:54,720 how we kind of judge it has a major impact on how much emotional load or how much emotional 307 00:28:54,720 - > 00:29:00,079 or cognitive weight these things kind of carry with us. And that can be something that, you know, 308 00:29:00,079 - > 00:29:06,880 that if we're not given again the buy in for why this stuff matters and we don't, 309 00:29:06,880 - > 00:29:11,680 or we don't know what's coming or it has been, you know, or it's a matter of it gets 310 00:29:11,680 - > 00:29:15,920 dumped in our lap and we need to figure it out while meeting all of our quarterly outcomes, 311 00:29:15,920 - > 00:29:21,119 then that's, then that appraisal of that situation is going to be quite negative, quite stressful, 312 00:29:21,119 - > 00:29:28,079 quite damaging. And that's something that will have a major impact. Whereas if we are prepared, 313 00:29:28,079 - > 00:29:34,160 if we are bought in, if we do know the why and we, and we understand that our, that and going, 314 00:29:34,160 - > 00:29:40,079 you know, the this messy transition period is normalized and we can ask for help, then the 315 00:29:40,079 - > 00:29:46,079 appraisal of that, of that exact same situation under those conditions is much less cognitively 316 00:29:46,079 - > 00:29:51,279 heavy, it's much less emotional, it creates much less anxiety. So that's something that we need 317 00:29:51,279 - > 00:29:56,960 to also be aware of too. And why this stuff can work if we do it properly. From the beginning. 318 00:29:56,960 - > 00:30:00,799 Yeah. And I mean that's why like communicating early communicate early 319 00:30:00,799 - > 00:30:10,000 communicate often has its benefits. and that's one area that just really seems to speak to it, 320 00:30:12,400 - > 00:30:18,799 going on. Like there's so many, there's so many elements that are influenced that are 321 00:30:18,799 - > 00:30:27,039 impacted by change. And something that I've been thinking about is how like, and it's not even just 322 00:30:27,039 - > 00:30:32,480 like change like, like job loss or am I thinking that I'm going to lose my job as a result of this 323 00:30:32,480 - > 00:30:42,458 or you know, am I going to lo. Lose income? But there's. We, we tie a lot of our identity to work. 324 00:30:42,458 - > 00:30:42,471 [COBY]: Yeah. 325 00:30:42,471 - > 00:30:47,920 like it creates a big part of who we are. I've never really liked it, 326 00:30:47,920 - > 00:30:52,720 but it tends to be like when you think about the first one or like 327 00:30:52,720 - > 00:30:56,559 two or three questions that you ask somebody when you're meeting them for the first time, 328 00:30:58,319 - > 00:31:02,799 you know, ask their name maybe where they're from and what do you do. Right, 329 00:31:02,799 - > 00:31:09,200 right. It's a way that we kind of like there's so much of our social identity wrapped up in 330 00:31:09,200 - > 00:31:15,680 work that when that becomes threatened, it's almost like it's a personal attack. 331 00:31:15,680 - > 00:31:16,799 [COBY]: Yeah. 332 00:31:16,799 - > 00:31:24,480 Because it's a personal, like it's an affront to who I am to have this thing change 333 00:31:24,480 - > 00:31:29,759 with. Maybe it's without my permission or without my input into it. Or maybe 334 00:31:29,759 - > 00:31:34,480 it isn't a merger and acquisition scenario where you're uns of whether or not you're 335 00:31:34,480 - > 00:31:38,799 going to have a job at the end of it. Right. That's a significant amount of stress and 336 00:31:38,799 - > 00:31:45,119 identity loss. But like it can take, I think it can take form in smaller components as well. 337 00:31:45,119 - > 00:31:55,680 Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Because a lot of that the, again even, even the appraisal of, of the 338 00:31:55,680 - > 00:32:00,160 merger and acquisition where you know, there's two of us that do the same job. I'm from company A, 339 00:32:00,160 - > 00:32:04,000 different company B. Which one is going to get it? You know, then that can start to create that 340 00:32:04,000 - > 00:32:08,640 almost like the, that, that, that appraisal. This is going to be, this is a bad situation for me. 341 00:32:08,640 - > 00:32:15,359 And they could start to grieve their identity loss before anything even happens. Because they're 342 00:32:15,359 - > 00:32:19,359 like, I've done this job for so long, this is all that I know. And then they start to kind of again, 343 00:32:19,359 - > 00:32:24,960 they start doing that appraisal of that threat is something that can happen, you know, again, 344 00:32:24,960 - > 00:32:31,039 even in small ways. But it's, it is an idea of. You're right about the social belonging piece is 345 00:32:31,039 - > 00:32:38,240 so ingrained into Our work even, even with the kind of like with a more common remote work, 346 00:32:38,240 - > 00:32:43,599 we still have, we still have our kind of our social, our social tribes and so much 347 00:32:43,599 - > 00:32:50,160 of that is tied to our work. And when there's a disruption, again especially when it's around 348 00:32:50,160 - > 00:32:55,039 like the blending of merger and acquisition or an amalgamation or it's a crisis where there's 349 00:32:55,039 - > 00:33:00,400 like again disruption or layoffs, those are direct threats to how we see ourselves, 350 00:33:00,400 - > 00:33:06,720 our social norms. And we can start to pre grieve that stuff even when it's all still theoretical. 351 00:33:06,720 - > 00:33:11,920 And it can still, it can be even, even in the so called positive aspects. Right. Like 352 00:33:11,920 - > 00:33:18,880 in the growth scenarios. Whether it's a growth through new markets. What is that going to mean 353 00:33:18,880 - > 00:33:23,279 for my job? Am I going to have the same job? Am I going to be dumped with new responsibilities? 354 00:33:23,279 - > 00:33:29,440 How is that going to affect me? Yeah, maybe it's the adult. Like I mean I talked about 355 00:33:29,440 - > 00:33:34,000 it briefly earlier but I mean one thing that a lot of people are experiencing right now, the, 356 00:33:34,000 - > 00:33:38,400 the threat to their identity and belonging is around the adoption of AI. What is that 357 00:33:38,400 - > 00:33:46,400 going to as, as our companies continually try to drive more and more efficiency and productivity, 358 00:33:46,400 - > 00:33:51,759 are they doing that in service of people or in, as a replacement theory for people? 359 00:33:51,759 - > 00:33:52,070 [COBY]: People. 360 00:33:52,070 - > 00:33:57,599 Right. technological improvements to help people become more efficient are 361 00:33:57,599 - > 00:34:03,839 phenomenal technological improvements that are trying to just flat out replace people. 362 00:34:03,839 - > 00:34:09,119 Yes. From a business perspective there are some very strong value propositions there. 363 00:34:09,119 - > 00:34:17,199 From a social and from an identity perspective, from an employee perspective, from so many other 364 00:34:17,199 - > 00:34:23,559 perspectives there are significant challenges and threats that come with that type of adoption. 365 00:34:23,559 - > 00:34:29,280 Absolutely. No, that's a really good point too. so the, so the next one, 366 00:34:29,280 - > 00:34:33,760 the next kind of threat or the psychological impact that I want to talk about is just the 367 00:34:33,760 - > 00:34:40,880 idea around the emotional exhaustion and burnout that can come from prolonged stress. And this is 368 00:34:40,880 - > 00:34:49,039 something that is actually more abundant in the, in the growth types of. Types of change because 369 00:34:49,039 - > 00:34:55,280 usually growth changes don't. Are not episodic. They're not project based or not. They're not, 370 00:34:55,280 - > 00:34:59,679 they're not single instance usually it's more of a business strategy philosophy. 371 00:34:59,679 - > 00:35:03,599 You're always going to be looking to expand the new things. It's almost like okay, 372 00:35:03,599 - > 00:35:09,119 you've mastered this market and trying to move on to the next one. So, so it's, so it's very 373 00:35:09,119 - > 00:35:13,039 [JA: so we've gained a foothold in a market, now it's time to go hard. 374 00:35:13,039 - > 00:35:13,599 [COBY]: Right? 375 00:35:13,599 - > 00:35:20,480 it is a core, it's a core operational strategy that that change is going to be constant. 376 00:35:20,480 - > 00:35:23,920 [COBY]: Yeah, absolutely. And if, and if you are not, 377 00:35:23,920 - > 00:35:26,800 if you have not built your organization around that, 378 00:35:26,800 - > 00:35:30,400 like we talked about with the hierarchy, if that is not how you've been structured, 379 00:35:30,400 - > 00:35:36,559 then you're just. As soon as people think that there's a, there's a, finish, line in place, 380 00:35:36,559 - > 00:35:41,840 you move the goalpost. Because. Right, because, I mean, because that's just how this works. 381 00:35:41,840 - > 00:35:50,000 Whereas we have seen companies do this where they are less forthright about where the 382 00:35:50,000 - > 00:36:00,159 actual goal post is. So they make small, they make, they present shorter stretches so that 383 00:36:00,159 - > 00:36:04,320 to motivate people. And then once they hit it, they keep moving it and moving it and moving 384 00:36:04,320 - > 00:36:08,960 it rather than just saying, here's where we are going and it's going to take us a while 385 00:36:08,960 - > 00:36:15,039 to get there. It's a, oh, no, we're just doing this piece right now. And then they. And that. 386 00:36:15,039 - > 00:36:19,920 I have never seen that work well, I have never seen somebody respond, an employee, 387 00:36:19,920 - > 00:36:24,159 anybody respond to that and go, you know what, thank you for lying to me. Thank you for telling 388 00:36:24,159 - > 00:36:29,119 me that it was going to be quick and easy and we'd get through this in six months. And we got 389 00:36:29,119 - > 00:36:33,760 into the six month part and we hit all of the metrics and now you're telling me that, oh no, 390 00:36:33,760 - > 00:36:39,559 it's actually going to be eight months. Well, what's funny is that 12 months, like, it's just. 391 00:36:39,559 - > 00:36:46,000 You're right. A lot of good businesses though are like, we are in, we are about growth. 392 00:36:46,000 - > 00:36:52,159 We are expansion. They, they sell the why very early on. And, and so again, the good ones do that 393 00:36:52,159 - > 00:36:57,440 and the bad ones don't. And they do what you just said. But where I actually think this lives almost 394 00:36:57,440 - > 00:37:03,920 per, you, know, pervasively is in government like federal government, provincial government, 395 00:37:03,920 - > 00:37:11,440 state government. It's when the like, you know, we're gonna, oh, with this, with this budget cut, 396 00:37:11,440 - > 00:37:14,960 we're gonna have to do more with less and we're gonna move people in different positions. But 397 00:37:14,960 - > 00:37:18,239 don't worry, this is going to be temporary. And then all this shift of the political. 398 00:37:18,239 - > 00:37:22,280 Oh, don't worry. All of these layoffs are going to happen through, natural attrition. 399 00:37:22,280 - > 00:37:23,519 [COBY]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 400 00:37:23,519 - > 00:37:26,280 [JAMES]: That's always the line at budget announcement day. 401 00:37:26,280 - > 00:37:30,239 Absolutely. And then, yeah, and then, yeah, we're have all. You're going to be taking 402 00:37:30,239 - > 00:37:34,800 over this new office and those new pieces are working with, with these teams. Don't worry, 403 00:37:34,800 - > 00:37:39,119 this is temporary. And then, and then, and then something Just kind of gets added on and then 404 00:37:39,119 - > 00:37:44,320 there's a shift in the political wins or then there's a change of government and there's new 405 00:37:44,320 - > 00:37:48,599 people brought in and then departments all shift around and, and that is just. 406 00:37:48,599 - > 00:37:52,239 [JAMES: Why do governments just feel the need to change like every 407 00:37:52,239 - > 00:37:57,440 new government changing then sometimes it's just the name of the division if 408 00:37:57,440 - > 00:38:00,559 they're lucky. Sometimes they just decide to reorganize everything and 409 00:38:00,559 - > 00:38:06,000 it's just like four years. You get four years of consistency if you're lucky. 410 00:38:06,000 - > 00:38:11,440 Yeah. But that's. Yes. So the emotional exhaustion and burnout and change fatigue really 411 00:38:11,440 - > 00:38:16,880 does live with these organizations and we see it a lot and we see a lot of government employee 412 00:38:16,880 - > 00:38:24,639 burnout and a lot of government complacency. often as a reaction to the constant change, 413 00:38:24,639 - > 00:38:28,800 the lack of preparation, the emotional exhaustion as just almost like their own 414 00:38:28,800 - > 00:38:33,280 personal coping mechanism to deal with. The like you said, the lying to that this 415 00:38:33,280 - > 00:38:38,480 is going to be a short lived piece. This is not going to be our everyday. But it really is. so, 416 00:38:38,480 - > 00:38:44,320 so again it's something that is really difficult to do and we, and we often see 417 00:38:44,320 - > 00:38:49,079 again often in the growth stuff we also see it kind of in certain sectors more than others. 418 00:38:49,079 - > 00:39:02,800 Yeah. I think just One of the, one of my final thoughts on this part is how 419 00:38:53,599 - > 00:39:12,519 I think many times business owners see the resistance to change as a behavioral piece as 420 00:39:02,800 - > 00:39:12,519 a stubbornness or an unwillingness. To change. 421 00:39:12,519 - > 00:39:13,199 [COBY]: Yeah. 422 00:39:13,199 - > 00:39:22,960 And what I've seen and what research has shown is that it tends. It's an emotional 423 00:39:22,960 - > 00:39:29,360 response, not a behavioral response. Right. Typically the, the, the what you are seeing, 424 00:39:29,360 - > 00:39:35,039 the. This for lack of a better term, what you may be seeing as stubbornness, 425 00:39:35,039 - > 00:39:42,960 as a behavioral piece, the, the cause of that is not necessarily. Yes, it's a choice. Ish. It 426 00:39:42,960 - > 00:39:49,840 tends to be more of the way in which we. The cognitive and emotional load hits us. Right. 427 00:39:49,840 - > 00:39:50,480 [COBY]: Yeah. 428 00:39:50,480 - > 00:40:00,159 So like from a leadership perspective, I think it's important to recognize that these 429 00:39:53,199 - > 00:40:08,719 frustrating behaviors that you are seeing in your staff because of the change. One, it's 430 00:40:00,159 - > 00:40:08,719 not about you. so don't take it personally. 431 00:40:08,719 - > 00:40:09,639 [COBY]: Right. 432 00:40:09,639 - > 00:40:16,480 The other piece is you're not going to logic your way out of an emotional response. 433 00:40:16,480 - > 00:40:24,079 So if these are largely emotional responses or emotional responses to the, the, 434 00:40:24,079 - > 00:40:34,719 the. The loss of control or the, the added stress trying to ex. Just explain your way through it. 435 00:40:34,719 - > 00:40:40,400 I've never seen an emotional. I've never seen a logical argument change an emotional reaction. 436 00:40:40,400 - > 00:40:41,586 [COBY]: No. 437 00:40:41,586 - > 00:40:50,239 Ah, it tends to do the opposite. Yeah. So recognizing that and giving some 438 00:40:50,239 - > 00:40:59,039 leeway for people to experience what they are experiencing with. I mean, there has to, 439 00:40:59,039 - > 00:41:04,400 obviously, within professional bounds, but there, there needs to be some, especially 440 00:41:04,400 - > 00:41:10,079 as we are going through more, more and more change constantly in the added stress and the, 441 00:41:10,079 - > 00:41:15,679 the loss of identity and the loss of control. All of the things that we've talked about. 442 00:41:15,679 - > 00:41:19,199 A little patience, understanding and grace can go a long way. 443 00:41:19,199 - > 00:41:24,639 Yeah, I think you're really onto something with talking about kind of the emotional and 444 00:41:24,639 - > 00:41:29,199 cognitive impact of a loss of control. Because that really is a big part of where a lot of this 445 00:41:29,199 - > 00:41:35,840 comes from is that because so one of the ideas of. So one of the theories around control, 446 00:41:35,840 - > 00:41:39,280 what's called a locus of control, where there's an external locus of control and internal locus 447 00:41:39,280 - > 00:41:44,719 of control, people usually are a mix of the two. And an external locus of control is. Stuff happens 448 00:41:44,719 - > 00:41:54,239 to me. I am almost like, I'm a, I'm really just a receptacle for fate or you know what I mean? Like, 449 00:41:55,119 - > 00:41:59,760 there's things beyond just me that impacts us, and I'm just kind of, I just kind of go 450 00:41:59,760 - > 00:42:03,679 through the motions and then stuff happens to me. Whereas internal locus of control is the opposite. 451 00:42:03,679 - > 00:42:10,159 It's like nothing outside, you know, or I'm the driver of my own destiny. you know, is, you know, 452 00:42:10,159 - > 00:42:14,239 I'm the only one that can push things forward. You know, it's. It's all about my willing, my, 453 00:42:14,239 - > 00:42:18,400 My work and my, My ability to grind is how I get there. And everything else like that too. 454 00:42:18,400 - > 00:42:21,920 No one's really ever one or the other. I mean, like, enough stuff happens to us. We have to. 455 00:42:21,920 - > 00:42:28,320 That. We have to like, blend that, blend the two. But an internal locust. Control is associated with 456 00:42:28,320 - > 00:42:32,800 people that are more resilient, that are able to kind of handle pieces a little bit easier. 457 00:42:32,800 - > 00:42:37,840 They look at. Okay, what can I learn from this? You know, what can I do to kind of like, 458 00:42:37,840 - > 00:42:43,519 you know, better the situation next time where those. Where the external pieces feel. We feel 459 00:42:43,519 - > 00:42:48,480 stuck. We feel that we are completely, at the whim of higher powers or whatever 460 00:42:48,480 - > 00:42:55,360 it is. And when stuff happens to you and you have not bought into it, you and the company 461 00:42:55,360 - > 00:43:02,239 has not provided you the kind of psychological supports that you need and the justification, 462 00:43:02,239 - > 00:43:08,559 the reasoning, the communication, everything feels external, that the control is all external and it 463 00:43:08,559 - > 00:43:12,320 is just happening to you. And that's when the stubbornness kind of kicks in because it's a 464 00:43:12,320 - > 00:43:21,440 reaction to a loss of control. And it is that we have an emotional and a Cognitive reaction 465 00:43:21,440 - > 00:43:28,480 to the situations that trump our behavior. And this is one of the things too, why when we 466 00:43:28,480 - > 00:43:33,599 jump too closely into the normal change processes where it's, you know, we change how you think and 467 00:43:33,599 - > 00:43:40,880 then change how you act. That's a boat behavior. But the idea of, of, of changing minds first and 468 00:43:40,880 - > 00:43:47,519 the two measurements of success is, helps address the emotional and cognitive concerns. So that way 469 00:43:47,519 - > 00:43:55,360 the behavioral pieces become come a lot easier. And. Yeah, so the other thing I kind of, again, 470 00:43:55,360 - > 00:43:59,760 we're kind of running short on time, so I don't want to. I was really trying to keep myself from 471 00:43:59,760 - > 00:44:03,840 going off on a major tangent there because locus of control stuff really is really interesting. 472 00:44:03,840 - > 00:44:09,119 M. But one thing I do want to see with all of these things. So we talked about loss, 473 00:44:09,119 - > 00:44:14,880 of predictability, anxiety, cognitive load. We talked about identity, loss and social belonging 474 00:44:14,880 - > 00:44:22,320 and grief and loss and change, fatigue and loss of control and emotional responses. Like I said, 475 00:44:22,320 - > 00:44:30,719 one thing that is important to also really make very abundantly clear is that these things don't 476 00:44:30,719 - > 00:44:39,039 just live at work. That there's something called a psychological spillover. That is when this stuff 477 00:44:39,039 - > 00:44:44,679 that we're going through in our everyday spills over into our personal, our home life, our health. 478 00:44:44,679 - > 00:44:48,559 I think we can all relate to that. 479 00:44:48,559 - > 00:44:53,519 Absolutely. And then what happens is that when we spill over, we, we feel more anxiety, 480 00:44:53,519 - > 00:45:00,079 we feel a lack of identity, we grief and loss, we feel fatigued and we bring it into our home life, 481 00:45:00,079 - > 00:45:05,119 into our, into our health and often it infects it. And then, 482 00:45:05,119 - > 00:45:10,239 and then the stress that we feel in our home life and our health spills over into work and then, 483 00:45:10,800 - > 00:45:14,159 and, and you're just kind of like compounding the issues, right? 484 00:45:14,159 - > 00:45:20,480 Yeah, it's a negative spiral that we can end up getting ourselves into. and it's 485 00:45:20,480 - > 00:45:27,519 really damaging and it is, it is exhausting to live in that constant state of change, 486 00:45:27,519 - > 00:45:35,119 constant state of anxiety, constant state of stress. And I think all of us can think 487 00:45:35,119 - > 00:45:40,239 of very clear instances in our own personal and professional lives where that's been the case. 488 00:45:40,239 - > 00:45:49,280 Yeah. And really again, like we said, these ideas live, live in both what we consider 489 00:45:49,280 - > 00:45:58,719 to be positive change as well as that mix, change as well as the crisis and negative change. Again, 490 00:45:58,719 - > 00:46:04,960 all of these things happen regardless of the kind of change. If the change is not well managed, 491 00:46:04,960 - > 00:46:09,360 if it is not something that we've done with strategic content, if we have not given people 492 00:46:09,360 - > 00:46:16,880 the psychological supports and the buy in and the justification and the why and the communication in 493 00:46:16,880 - > 00:46:23,920 order to make all of these things more manageable. And if you haven't built the resilience in our 494 00:46:23,920 - > 00:46:29,679 people, in our systems, in our organization, all of this stuff, whether it's good change or bad 495 00:46:29,679 - > 00:46:36,119 change, has just. This has almost the same impact on us and it depletes us almost the same way. 496 00:46:36,119 - > 00:46:42,000 Yeah. I think for me, like, I think the main, like the takeaway that 497 00:46:42,000 - > 00:46:48,079 I would like people to walk away from this conversation with, with is that change really 498 00:46:48,079 - > 00:46:55,719 only becomes successful operationally when it can be absorbed psychologically. 499 00:46:55,719 - > 00:46:57,239 [COBY]: Yeah. 500 00:46:57,239 - > 00:47:03,400 If you don't have that, you're. You very likely setting yourself up for failure. 501 00:47:03,400 - > 00:47:11,199 100% and, these kinds of transitions, these kinds of shifts, these kinds of. Again, 502 00:47:11,199 - > 00:47:14,159 whether they're strategic changes or whether they're changes that are 503 00:47:14,159 - > 00:47:19,360 episodic that happened to us based on an, incident or disruption or a crisis, 504 00:47:19,360 - > 00:47:27,679 any kind of change really does test our resilience as people. But also the structures 505 00:47:27,679 - > 00:47:34,480 that we work in and the culture that we have crafted, whether that culture was crafted with 506 00:47:34,480 - > 00:47:41,119 intent and strategy or whether it was just cobbled together from everyday decisions. 507 00:47:41,119 - > 00:47:45,280 Well, and this is why, like, I, I don't want to get us off on another tangent just 508 00:47:45,280 - > 00:47:54,559 as we're trying to wrap up, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Yeah. but this is why as an. We focus so 509 00:47:54,559 - > 00:47:59,679 much on operations. Like, so much, the work that we do, this, the work that we support, clients, 510 00:47:59,679 - > 00:48:08,719 lives in operations. But yet we talk and we, we focus so much on people and culture. Because you 511 00:48:08,719 - > 00:48:16,239 cannot succeed. I won't say you cannot succeed because there's always exceptions that prove the 512 00:48:16,239 - > 00:48:23,920 rule. But it is much more difficult to succeed if you don't have a strong foundation and resilient 513 00:48:23,920 - > 00:48:31,840 culture, and solid, supportive people who are going to go through these changes with you. 514 00:48:31,840 - > 00:48:35,760 Well, I mean, I think what you're really kind of saying is that a lot of these, 515 00:48:35,760 - > 00:48:42,000 A lot of the changes that are happening, we're forcing people through them in the way that, 516 00:48:42,000 - > 00:48:44,400 you know, like, you know, when. You know, when we are doing them, 517 00:48:44,400 - > 00:48:47,360 when we aren't doing them successfully, we can still. We still get through the other end. Like, 518 00:48:47,360 - > 00:48:52,639 stuff is still different and we get through the change, but that should not be the point. 519 00:48:52,639 - > 00:48:56,920 Right. Yeah. Just getting through the change isn't actually the goal. 520 00:48:56,920 - > 00:49:00,559 Right, Right. The whole point is to get through the change without breaking 521 00:49:00,559 - > 00:49:04,960 your people and destroying your culture, because you're still going to need those 522 00:49:04,960 - > 00:49:10,079 people and that culture on the other side of the change. Very cool. I think 523 00:49:10,079 - > 00:49:14,480 this was a good conversation I'm hoping that you listening, found some, again, 524 00:49:14,480 - > 00:49:19,599 some helpful insight into the conversation. We didn't give a, this is how you fix it situation, 525 00:49:19,599 - > 00:49:23,360 because it's not necessarily, you know, that easy of a thing to say. Just. 526 00:49:23,360 - > 00:49:25,440 Just fix it, irs. That's how you fix it. 527 00:49:25,440 - > 00:49:30,960 Well, I mean, this is the reality of the work that we do is trying to say 528 00:49:30,960 - > 00:49:36,000 this stuff is complex and you need to have a plan and you need to make sure that everything 529 00:49:36,000 - > 00:49:40,000 you're doing has intention. And if you can't do that internally, then you need to get help 530 00:49:40,000 - > 00:49:46,079 on that externally. And that's really, really the answer. but, yeah, so I, I think, again, 531 00:49:46,079 - > 00:49:50,480 I just want to kind of, kind of re-summarize the point that, again, change is so hard, 532 00:49:50,480 - > 00:49:54,639 even when it is positive. And, and I really like your point at the beginning where you 533 00:49:54,639 - > 00:49:58,079 said change is neutral, but people are not. And again, that's a really good way to kind of, kind 534 00:49:58,079 - > 00:50:03,280 of look at that. Change is complex and messy and difficult. Whether it's positive change happening 535 00:50:03,280 - > 00:50:07,679 through growth, whether it's kind of a blended change, like a merger, or whether it's crisis, 536 00:50:07,679 - > 00:50:13,119 like some kind of major incident or scandal or disruption, that all this stuff has a major 537 00:50:13,119 - > 00:50:22,400 psychological impact on our people. And if we are not. If we are not able to make the change again, 538 00:50:22,400 - > 00:50:29,840 almost like achievable psychologically for people, and then we cannot get through the 539 00:50:29,840 - > 00:50:35,280 change with our people and our culture still intact. And that really should be the point 540 00:50:35,280 - > 00:50:40,000 that it's about. You know, once the change is over, you still need to. Everything still needs 541 00:50:40,000 - > 00:50:44,000 to work. So keeping the people that make it work, that should always be our focal point, always be 542 00:50:44,000 - > 00:50:50,719 our priority. All right, good. That does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access 543 00:50:50,719 - > 00:50:57,840 the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us. 544 00:50:57,840 - > 00:51:01,280 [ANNOU: For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit 545 00:51:01,280 - > 00:51:06,800 us at Roman3.ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, 546 00:51:06,800 - > 00:51:11,199 high productivity, increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance, 547 00:51:11,199 - > 00:51:16,480 dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast…