Why Does Fixing A Bad Leader Feel Impossible?

1 00:00:00,000 - > 00:00:05,360 Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, 2 00:00:05,360 - > 00:00:10,160 not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby. 3 00:00:10,160 - > 00:00:12,199 [COBY]: Did we lose a patient? 4 00:00:12,199 - > 00:00:13,720 [JAME: No, that's just my lunch. 5 00:00:15,160 - > 00:00:23,640 Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And let's get started with a question. 6 00:00:24,280 - > 00:00:29,120 Why does fixing a bad leader feel impossible? 7 00:00:31,039 - > 00:00:40,000 yeah, largely because the person who's usually responsible for fixing a bad leader is 8 00:00:40,719 - > 00:00:47,679 often the bad leader themselves. let's look at any business that's not governed by a board 9 00:00:47,679 - > 00:00:53,479 of directors, the CEO or the owner president, whatever title they choose to give themselves 10 00:00:53,479 - > 00:01:01,280 is the ultimate authority. And if they are, as is unfortunately quite often the case, 11 00:01:01,280 - > 00:01:06,439 the cause of bad leadership or the bad leader themselves, then it really becomes a vicious 12 00:01:06,439 - > 00:01:13,280 cycle of the only person who is really able or has the authority to solve the problem is the 13 00:01:13,280 - > 00:01:23,040 problem themselves. It not like all hope is lost, but it does illustrate why it feels, feels so 14 00:01:23,040 - > 00:01:29,640 impossible to fix bad leadership at the highest levels when we look at it from an internal problem 15 00:01:29,640 - > 00:01:35,680 or an internal perspective. Because if somebody lacks the self awareness to critically reflect on 16 00:01:35,680 - > 00:01:40,680 their own behaviors and their actions or lacks the emotional intelligence to be able to hear, 17 00:01:41,599 - > 00:01:45,680 and receive feedback that they don't like, then they're going to lash out. 18 00:01:45,680 - > 00:01:45,920 [COBY]: All right? 19 00:01:45,920 - > 00:01:51,519 They're going to. When somebody shines a light on their bad leadership habits, it 20 00:01:52,079 - > 00:01:57,560 they're going to lash out and respond in a bad way. 21 00:01:58,359 - > 00:02:06,079 This destroys psychological safety and warns the next person to not even bother. And we're going to 22 00:02:06,079 - > 00:02:12,680 talk a bit about the individual and the importance of self awareness in leadership. But what I really 23 00:02:12,680 - > 00:02:18,560 want to get to with this conversation of why does it feel so impossible to fix back bad leadership? 24 00:02:19,520 - > 00:02:24,240 I want to talk about the business law of the linchpin because I think that plays a big role 25 00:02:24,240 - > 00:02:34,520 in how we, how and why and what. I want to look at why, like the impact of hiring the wrong leader, 26 00:02:34,520 - > 00:02:41,639 the major root causes of bad leadership and ultimately what can we do to address it? 27 00:02:41,639 - > 00:02:46,599 Yeah, no, I think that it's really important for us to be talking to us to be at 28 00:02:46,599 - > 00:02:52,000 least be referencing kind of like, you know, the fact in most private sector business the 29 00:02:52,000 - > 00:02:58,120 you know, unless the CEO or the owner is governed by a board of directors or group of shareholders 30 00:02:58,120 - > 00:03:04,719 or whatever like that there is no person above them to kind of like identify the problem. 31 00:03:04,719 - > 00:03:08,360 So there it does kind of rely on that leader to have a bit of that self awareness like you said, 32 00:03:08,360 - > 00:03:13,159 and have a bit of that desire to you Know, like to improve themselves. 33 00:03:13,159 - > 00:03:19,479 And again, and that's kind of what is, you know, like business coaching is really heavily, ah, 34 00:03:19,479 - > 00:03:26,000 a great solution for and those types of things. But I do think that again it's going to be 35 00:03:26,000 - > 00:03:32,919 a good topic for us to talk about outside of that scenario. In the other scenarios where there is 36 00:03:32,919 - > 00:03:39,319 a board, where there's a board, there is a group of shareholders, there's a, there's somebody that 37 00:03:39,319 - > 00:03:45,120 is responsible for resolving a problem with leadership. How, you know, how is it that we. 38 00:03:45,120 - > 00:03:47,979 [JAMES]: Or there is self awareness and critical reflection. 39 00:03:47,979 - > 00:03:48,680 [COBY]: Right. 40 00:03:48,680 - > 00:03:54,319 Like, because sometimes, I mean sometimes people get to a point where the problems have 41 00:03:54,319 - > 00:04:00,199 compounded to a point where it's like, okay, even if I don't know that I am necessarily the problem, 42 00:04:00,199 - > 00:04:06,039 I know that a problem exists and I need to seek help for it. that's at least a better starting 43 00:04:06,039 - > 00:04:11,548 point than what we often see of there's a problem. But it's not me. It's, you know. 44 00:04:11,548 - > 00:04:18,199 Yeah. I mean the other scenario that we do see sometimes in private sector businesses 45 00:04:18,199 - > 00:04:24,600 that have an owner CEO is that sometimes that they have surrounded themselves with confidants 46 00:04:24,600 - > 00:04:29,959 that will actually talk to. Maybe it's people that work beneath them or maybe it's mentors that work 47 00:04:29,959 - > 00:04:35,279 beside them or other people that can actually help shine a light on that. But yeah, I do think that 48 00:04:35,279 - > 00:04:39,000 kind of, that preface. I think that it is going to be really good for us to talk about 49 00:04:39,000 - > 00:04:45,439 the impact of like hiring a bad leader. and that sense of like what happens if the leader 50 00:04:45,439 - > 00:04:51,720 is the one that carries all the responsibility and everything's really dependent on that one 51 00:04:51,720 - > 00:04:57,399 person. What do you do when the person everything falls onto is the problem? 52 00:04:57,399 - > 00:05:01,519 And I think that's really kind of at the heart of this conversation, which is why 53 00:05:01,519 - > 00:05:06,519 you're right. I think we should have a little bit of a reintroduction or at least a summary 54 00:05:06,519 - > 00:05:10,480 of the business law of the linchpin. So we did an episode on the business law of the linchpin, 55 00:05:10,480 - > 00:05:15,600 I think last season, and where we kind of broke down what it looks like in different categories. 56 00:05:15,600 - > 00:05:20,360 But here I want us to really focus on what happens when the leader is that linchpin. 57 00:05:20,360 - > 00:05:28,079 Yeah. So just in quick summary, really what we're talking about is a linchpin is kind of 58 00:05:28,079 - > 00:05:34,399 that, that critical role. It's a dependent. We've created some sort of dependency on a person. And 59 00:05:34,399 - > 00:05:39,000 in previous conversations we've talked about how it can often happen with like high performers in 60 00:05:39,000 - > 00:05:45,560 sales or in other roles, that create dependency on one person and when that person disappears, 61 00:05:45,560 - > 00:05:54,199 the whole house of cards comes crashing down. In a leadership perspective, oftentimes the CEO, 62 00:05:54,199 - > 00:05:59,959 the owner, the, the highest executive in the organization is a linchpin 63 00:06:01,480 - > 00:06:11,959 by default and by design. Because that position carries a tremendous amount of responsibility, 64 00:06:11,959 - > 00:06:19,160 it carries a tremendous amount of authority within the organization. And when 65 00:06:20,000 - > 00:06:24,120 that linchpin is removed, when it's not effective, when it's broken, 66 00:06:24,639 - > 00:06:31,319 that causes significant impact throughout the entire organization. 67 00:06:31,319 - > 00:06:39,160 Yeah. And we talked it's funny because like we've, I mean we've said this a number of 68 00:06:39,160 - > 00:06:46,360 times in the podcast about just how critical leaders are to organizational stability and 69 00:06:46,360 - > 00:06:52,800 sustainability and growth and how like you know, just how vital both your again how a lot of your 70 00:06:52,800 - > 00:06:57,839 middle managers are. But you, but your, but your, your executive, your top executives are just 71 00:06:58,560 - > 00:07:04,560 make or break for ah, any kind of, whether it's, whether it's government, whether it's non profits, 72 00:07:04,560 - > 00:07:11,519 whether it's private sector, regardless whether it is just so fundamental. Because leaders, 73 00:07:12,240 - > 00:07:19,120 they shape the entire system that the organization works in. They are the captain steering the ship. 74 00:07:19,120 - > 00:07:23,399 And that's a hallmark of a good leader. Right. Like if we, I know they, 75 00:07:24,000 - > 00:07:29,160 that we are focused on kind of bad leadership with this conversation but it's important to 76 00:07:29,160 - > 00:07:33,879 also highlight the inverse. Right. Good leaders are going to shape systems. They're going to 77 00:07:33,879 - > 00:07:39,360 create systems that run independently from them. They're going to create 78 00:07:40,040 - > 00:07:46,120 levels of autonomy and responsibility within their management teams and within different levels and 79 00:07:46,120 - > 00:07:53,680 layers of organization. The challenge is that we unfortunately see this far less in smaller or 80 00:07:53,680 - > 00:08:01,680 medium sized businesses than we do in larger corporations or companies that have the, let's the 81 00:08:01,680 - > 00:08:10,079 money to recruit a really effective, really strong leader. Right. or that it's not owner leader led. 82 00:08:10,079 - > 00:08:13,079 [COBY]: Right? Yeah, but I mean actually I'm going to push back 83 00:08:13,079 - > 00:08:16,439 a little bit on and say it's not just good leaders at shape systems, 84 00:08:16,439 - > 00:08:21,480 bad leaders or even mediocre leaders still shape systems. Right. I mean it's a matter 85 00:08:21,480 - > 00:08:27,519 of how dependent they are on them. Right. regardless, it's like we often culture 86 00:08:27,519 - > 00:08:30,480 [JAMES]: either shape it with intent or you shape it by default. 87 00:08:30,480 - > 00:08:34,879 Well that's just it. Like the way we talk about culture. Culture is built in your, 88 00:08:34,879 - > 00:08:39,279 is defined in your organization. It is reinforced, it is established. 89 00:08:39,279 - > 00:08:47,799 But it's often done as by default or by accident or by cobbled together from decisions that maybe 90 00:08:47,799 - > 00:08:55,960 had no strategic plan around them. But it happens, it's made regardless of your intent and A good 91 00:08:55,960 - > 00:09:02,480 leader knows that and plans to shape the culture and shape the systems with some kind of, again, 92 00:09:02,480 - > 00:09:08,960 strategic intent. Mediocre leaders maybe have some plan. Bad leaders are almost kind 93 00:09:08,960 - > 00:09:14,600 of divorced from the idea of what. Of the natural consequences of their decisions and their actions. 94 00:09:15,159 - > 00:09:20,919 [J: And. Yeah, I mean, let's be clear. Bad leaders are not bad people. 95 00:09:20,919 - > 00:09:29,000 No. there are a lot we've seen, unfortunately. Just, the nature of our work puts us in contact 96 00:09:29,000 - > 00:09:33,759 with a lot of problems because we don't get hired when the ship's sailing smoothly. 97 00:09:33,759 - > 00:09:34,519 [COBY]: Right. 98 00:09:34,519 - > 00:09:36,960 [JAMES]: yeah. 99 00:09:36,960 - > 00:09:38,840 [COB: Well, just like we talked about in the last episode, that we 100 00:09:38,840 - > 00:09:46,559 have to go in for growth, which is often because a good leader has brought us in and want and wants 101 00:09:41,320 - > 00:09:50,365 us to help them get more of what they're doing. Or there's a merger and we're trying to 102 00:09:46,559 - > 00:09:50,365 like, help shuffle the cards. But, But. 103 00:09:50,365 - > 00:09:54,399 [J: Well, there's some, usually some sort of crisis or some sort of, 104 00:09:55,519 - > 00:09:58,960 trigger event that has caused significant disruption. Yes. 105 00:09:58,960 - > 00:10:06,120 [: Yeah. Disruption is probably the majority of our work. and 106 00:10:06,120 - > 00:10:10,159 it's something that, you know. Yeah, usually things have gone wrong, like we stepped in, 107 00:10:10,840 - > 00:10:16,759 kind of like after a problem has happened and not before. So we're usually trying to, 108 00:10:16,759 - > 00:10:21,440 you know, kind of help. Yeah, course. Correct is a big, It's a big part of what we do. It's 109 00:10:21,440 - > 00:10:28,000 all that we do. It's definitely a big part of what we do. But I mean, we've seen and we've had like, 110 00:10:28,000 - > 00:10:35,080 organizations come to like, talk to us that they feel like they're in like, an existential problem 111 00:10:35,639 - > 00:10:42,320 when they have this leader that they are so dependent on that is shouldering so much weight. 112 00:10:42,320 - > 00:10:50,360 And they, as, a board or as an executive team or as, you know, or whatever it is, 113 00:10:51,240 - > 00:10:56,399 council knows that this person is not a bad person, but they are the wrong person 114 00:10:56,399 - > 00:11:02,440 for this specific situation. And, but they just don't know how to like, untether all 115 00:11:02,440 - > 00:11:08,000 of these things that this one person is holding together. It just seems so overwhelming to them. 116 00:11:08,000 - > 00:11:12,799 And oftentimes from like this, we see that type of scenario happen after growth. 117 00:11:12,799 - > 00:11:13,879 [COBY]: Yeah, right. 118 00:11:14,639 - > 00:11:23,200 which kind of ties in a bit with the, another concept that we've talked about on 119 00:11:18,759 - > 00:11:31,919 the podcast, the technical founder paradox. And this can happen from an owner, founder, 120 00:11:23,200 - > 00:11:37,879 context. It can also happen from a, hired CEO executive, context where the, the. The skills 121 00:11:31,919 - > 00:11:43,360 that they. That made them successful in the role, that made them successful in growing the 122 00:11:38,759 - > 00:11:51,360 company and growing the organization. Now that the organization is in a different 123 00:11:44,679 - > 00:11:59,559 phase of its life and development. Those skills are actually holding them back. And that is very 124 00:11:51,360 - > 00:12:07,000 common in after significant periods of growth. And it places this weird dynamic where you 125 00:11:59,559 - > 00:12:15,559 have somebody who has been so effective and so critical to the success of the organization 126 00:12:07,000 - > 00:12:23,600 that has performed well for potentially years and helped really shape and turn the organization 127 00:12:15,559 - > 00:12:30,120 into what it is today. And yet suddenly they're missing things, they're dropping the ball, they're 128 00:12:23,600 - > 00:12:37,279 creating more problems than they're solving. They don't seem to have a good grasp or reality 129 00:12:30,120 - > 00:12:42,519 on the situation. And it's not the person, it's not even that they are necessarily, 130 00:12:37,279 - > 00:12:48,240 I wouldn't classify them as a bad leader. They're ill equipped, they have the wrong, 131 00:12:43,639 - > 00:12:53,879 there's a mismatch in the skills and that they require. And it's our 132 00:12:48,919 - > 00:13:01,360 responsibility as organizations, as leaders, as executives, as boards, councils, 133 00:12:53,879 - > 00:13:06,519 whatever accountability, structure. You have to make sure that we put the right supports and 134 00:13:01,360 - > 00:13:11,720 systems in place to support that individual and get them the skills or get somebody in 135 00:13:06,519 - > 00:13:11,720 there who has the skills to support them. 136 00:13:11,720 - > 00:13:15,200 Well, I mean, I think it's one thing that we should just make sure 137 00:13:15,200 - > 00:13:21,039 that everyone is perfectly aware of is that especially when you're going through growth, 138 00:13:21,600 - > 00:13:29,440 it is completely understandable for there to be a organic 139 00:13:29,440 - > 00:13:35,440 change to where the leader, it becomes a bad fit. They organically become a bad fit. 140 00:13:36,360 - > 00:13:42,159 And that is just like, that's because they've stayed the same, the organization has changed. 141 00:13:43,039 - > 00:13:47,919 Right. So I mean that's just a natural consequence of when that scenario happens. Right. 142 00:13:47,919 - > 00:13:53,200 [JAMES]: But it's why, it's why leadership development, 143 00:13:53,200 - > 00:13:56,960 professional development at the leadership level is so important. 144 00:13:56,960 - > 00:13:57,559 [COBY]: Right. 145 00:13:57,559 - > 00:14:03,919 It's why leadership coaches can be a critical resource to you. It's why 146 00:14:03,919 - > 00:14:09,200 you always need to be searching for it. I mean it comes down to 147 00:14:09,200 - > 00:14:13,519 often you don't know what you don't know, but it's your responsibility to find out. 148 00:14:13,519 - > 00:14:18,399 [COBY]: Yeah, absolutely. So I think I just want to have us get a 149 00:14:18,399 - > 00:14:22,120 little bit into kind of like some of the impacts that we see of the wrong leader 150 00:14:22,120 - > 00:14:27,519 and then, and then touch and then get into a, more of a discussion into the causes of it. But. 151 00:14:27,519 - > 00:14:30,399 [JA: Right. we need to actually get through the pieces we were going 152 00:14:30,399 - > 00:14:33,519 to talk about, not just ramble as I tend to do. 153 00:14:33,519 - > 00:14:41,279 So I mean the thing is, is that again, like I said, it does feel again like we, 154 00:14:41,279 - > 00:14:47,000 we do see these organizations coming to us when we're, you know, onboarding a new client or we're 155 00:14:47,000 - > 00:14:51,039 having some of our discovery conversations that these Problems do feel like. So they 156 00:14:51,039 - > 00:14:57,240 do feel existential, like they rarely, they, they, they feel trapped once the organization 157 00:14:57,240 - > 00:15:02,799 has become dependent on this person and they just don't know what to do because 158 00:15:02,799 - > 00:15:08,639 often what they're seeing and why they recognize that this is a bad fit, that this is, that this 159 00:15:08,639 - > 00:15:18,200 is a bad leader for this situation is things like informal power becomes almost like the go to piece 160 00:15:18,200 - > 00:15:24,080 rather than creating formal accountability, rather than being checks and balances and trans and 161 00:15:24,759 - > 00:15:31,679 kind of like transparency in how stuff is done. It's about power consolidation and it's about the, 162 00:15:31,679 - > 00:15:36,519 the you know, not allowing people to kind of like, you know, be able to kind of question decisions 163 00:15:37,039 - > 00:15:44,639 and because it's almost like decisions get made in a black box and there's no accountability for the, 164 00:15:44,639 - > 00:15:48,080 the need for there to be other perspectives or things like that as well. Right. 165 00:15:48,080 - > 00:15:53,480 Well it goes back to the statement earlier of you know, leaders shape systems, 166 00:15:53,480 - > 00:15:59,320 right? Regardless of good or bad. A good leader is going to shape systems in a way that 167 00:16:00,399 - > 00:16:07,960 creates more accountability, more autonomy, that empowers people. A bad leader or the wrong leader 168 00:16:07,960 - > 00:16:13,240 is going to create systems that create more dependency on themselves, that consolidates 169 00:16:13,240 - > 00:16:22,039 that power through not structured, formalized, articulated systems but more of a. Well this 170 00:16:22,039 - > 00:16:26,240 is just the way that I'm going to hold on to this. I'm going to keep this authority myself. 171 00:16:26,240 - > 00:16:31,360 Right? And that creates these decision bottlenecks and that creates the. All this, 172 00:16:31,360 - > 00:16:36,360 all these slowing down pieces because it's fun. One of the most common things that we see 173 00:16:36,360 - > 00:16:43,039 when there is a bad leader or the wrong leader in the scenario in the situation is they have 174 00:16:43,039 - > 00:16:50,480 they have, they have protected their longevity by creating, by almost like insulating themselves 175 00:16:50,480 - > 00:16:55,519 with the dependency. So by bottlenecking decisions and by making everything run through them and by 176 00:16:56,039 - > 00:17:01,240 this power consolidations like it almost becomes almost like a defense mechanism of like I know 177 00:17:01,240 - > 00:17:06,279 I'm out of my death, I kind of know I'm a bad fit. So what can I do to protect myself from this job? 178 00:17:06,279 - > 00:17:12,559 I'll make everything more dependent on me, which, which again makes that the resolution of whoever 179 00:17:12,559 - > 00:17:16,920 it is that's trying to resolve this situation and trying to like you know, be able to kind of 180 00:17:18,039 - > 00:17:21,920 allow the organization to act because even harder, because they feel more and more trapped 181 00:17:21,920 - > 00:17:26,559 because it's almost like, it's almost like leaves getting more and more like embedded in and rooted 182 00:17:26,559 - > 00:17:30,039 into, you know, getting under the skin of the organization so that they're harder to get out. 183 00:17:30,039 - > 00:17:36,079 And I think if you're Looking for what are some telltale signs or what are some, 184 00:17:36,079 - > 00:17:40,400 what are some, the very least yellow flags, if not red flags. 185 00:17:41,240 - > 00:17:46,279 Decision bottlenecks is a big one, right? If there's that consolidation of you know, everything 186 00:17:46,279 - > 00:17:55,720 needs to go through, through the CEO or the owner, you know, there isn't a decentralized authority, 187 00:17:55,720 - > 00:18:02,839 decision making structure, thing, everything gets slowed down as it moves up the chain. 188 00:18:02,839 - > 00:18:08,680 Those are telltale signs that you have some structural problems and that you have 189 00:18:09,319 - > 00:18:13,559 potentially a bad leader in place or at least an ineffective one. 190 00:18:13,559 - > 00:18:15,400 [COBY]: Communication bottlenecks are the same thing. 191 00:18:15,400 - > 00:18:19,030 Like we talked about bottlenecks. Decision making bottlenecks. yeah, yeah. 192 00:18:19,030 - > 00:18:21,320 Ah, like we talked, we talked about communication bottlenecks in an 193 00:18:21,319 - > 00:18:26,400 episode we did, I think in season two. We talked about about toxic leaders. 194 00:18:26,400 - > 00:18:31,440 About how if all the information like to a board or to a council or to the shareholders 195 00:18:31,440 - > 00:18:35,480 only goes through the one person, then they shape the narrative. Right. 196 00:18:35,480 - > 00:18:40,640 But it also reinforces that it's impossible to get rid of them because they're 197 00:18:40,640 - > 00:18:45,480 so crucial. Right. They create, they've turn themselves into a lynch pin that 198 00:18:46,319 - > 00:18:50,799 through fear. Through fear that if we pull this pin, the whole thing's coming down. 199 00:18:50,799 - > 00:18:58,200 Right. Which is why it feels like such a crisis to have a ah, bad leader or if you are trying to 200 00:18:58,200 - > 00:19:06,640 figure out how do I address this problem. because if, if I fire them, what's going to happen? Is the 201 00:19:06,640 - > 00:19:12,759 entire organization going to go under? you know, do I have. Because it, it's not like you can let 202 00:19:12,759 - > 00:19:18,000 somebody go one day and necessarily have somebody lined up ready to take over the following day. 203 00:19:18,000 - > 00:19:18,279 [COBY]: Right? 204 00:19:18,279 - > 00:19:26,519 There's going to be recruitment, there's going to be onboarding, there's 205 00:19:21,039 - > 00:19:32,500 going to be a lot of steps and potentially a not insignificant period of time where 206 00:19:27,640 - > 00:19:32,500 you will be quote, unquote leaderless or. 207 00:19:32,500 - > 00:19:38,119 [: Well, let's be fairly clear, sometimes we step into that gap when 208 00:19:38,119 - > 00:19:43,819 the leader has been removed and we step in as a, as a transitional, temporary solution. 209 00:19:43,819 - > 00:19:46,799 [: There are solutions to that. No, I was gonna say but like that's, 210 00:19:46,799 - > 00:19:51,720 that's the fear that drives, the lack that, that holds people back from making that decision. 211 00:19:51,720 - > 00:19:56,519 Oh yeah, but what I'm saying is, but like even though they, there is someone lined up to 212 00:19:56,519 - > 00:20:05,640 step in, on, on the next day, but usually it takes us like sometimes it's eight months to a year to 213 00:20:05,640 - > 00:20:11,519 try to like, you know, to try to like sort out all of these broken pieces, trying to decentralize, 214 00:20:11,519 - > 00:20:16,759 trying to just break the bottlenecks. Trying to move from the dependency. Because it's. It's. 215 00:20:16,759 - > 00:20:21,519 If not if we're brought into, like, rebuild. Fix the damage that's been done. Yeah. 216 00:20:21,519 - > 00:20:27,279 It can be a lengthy process. If we're brought in to, steer the ship while they bring it. While they 217 00:20:27,279 - > 00:20:33,559 find their next person, it can be significantly less. But I mean, these problems haven't been 218 00:20:33,559 - > 00:20:37,579 created overnight. You can't expect that you're going to get out of them overnight either. 219 00:20:37,579 - > 00:20:37,960 [COBY]: Right. 220 00:20:37,960 - > 00:20:43,680 There's a process. There's a structure. There's reinforced behaviors. There is fear, 221 00:20:44,240 - > 00:20:46,440 there's a lack of psychological safety. 222 00:20:46,440 - > 00:20:46,914 [COBY]: Trauma. 223 00:20:46,914 - > 00:20:51,000 There's a lot of institutional trauma that comes with it. Like the 224 00:20:51,000 - > 00:20:56,160 impact. The longer you leave a bad leader in their position, 225 00:20:56,960 - > 00:21:03,799 the. There's a multiplier on how long it's going to take to fix that problem. 226 00:21:03,799 - > 00:21:04,160 [COBY]: No. 227 00:21:04,160 - > 00:21:05,819 Fix the problems they've created. 228 00:21:05,819 - > 00:21:09,960 Yeah. And that's just it. Like, there's so much. Yeah. That has to be, 229 00:21:09,960 - > 00:21:12,480 like. We've often compared it to, like, you know, like, letting, like, 230 00:21:13,119 - > 00:21:18,759 mold grow in a, in your house, you know, fixing it early on because it's a much smaller rent. 231 00:21:18,759 - > 00:21:21,160 [JAMES]: While it's surface mold, it's easy to deal with. 232 00:21:21,160 - > 00:21:21,819 [COBY]: Yeah. Yeah. 233 00:21:21,819 - > 00:21:26,460 [JAMES: But, like, when it gets into and behind your gyprock, you're. 234 00:21:26,460 - > 00:21:30,480 Yeah. We've gone into places and we've had to tear everything back to the stud. Down 235 00:21:30,480 - > 00:21:35,000 to the studs, metaphorically. To help. To help. Because this is one of the things 236 00:21:35,000 - > 00:21:38,920 that we often tell organizations when we step in and we say, let's be clear, 237 00:21:39,599 - > 00:21:43,759 you can't bring somebody in with how broken everything is. Like, 238 00:21:43,759 - > 00:21:48,440 it's going to take a while to fix all this stuff. Just like, you know, they can't sell the house 239 00:21:48,440 - > 00:21:52,319 while it's tore down the sides. You're going to need to, like, do the renos first. Then you. 240 00:21:52,319 - > 00:21:57,240 Then you can start, you know, like, courting, buyers. Right. It's the same kind of idea. 241 00:21:57,240 - > 00:22:01,359 Well, it's because you don't want to fall back into that same technical founder, 242 00:22:02,160 - > 00:22:07,640 paradox where you hire somebody. If you were to. If you were to just tear things down to the studs 243 00:22:07,640 - > 00:22:14,480 and hire somebody to replace it, that's a certain skill set. And that skill set is different from 244 00:22:14,480 - > 00:22:21,440 the skill set that you're going to need for once the organization's been rebuilt, how do they 245 00:22:21,440 - > 00:22:28,200 take it, the. The company to the next level? Right. So there's understanding what you need. And 246 00:22:29,240 - > 00:22:34,359 I mean. Yeah, you have to understand what the context is in which you are bringing Somebody 247 00:22:34,359 - > 00:22:40,359 in. So if you want somebody to come in and fix, then it's probably going to be a short term. Well, 248 00:22:40,359 - > 00:22:46,240 I say short term, but shorter term, project. If you want somebody to come in and grow, 249 00:22:46,240 - > 00:22:51,079 you don't want to bring them into a situation that, they have to renovate the entire 250 00:22:52,240 - > 00:22:54,440 company before they can do any growth. 251 00:22:54,440 - > 00:22:58,319 Yeah. And. And again, like, because otherwise you're trying to recruit a unicorn. 252 00:22:58,319 - > 00:23:02,720 And then, and, and Yeah, and those are. And that's just always a setup or failure. 253 00:23:02,720 - > 00:23:03,480 [JAMES]: Yeah. 254 00:23:03,480 - > 00:23:04,000 [COBY]: All right, so. 255 00:23:04,000 - > 00:23:06,900 [: Yeah. Your business strategy cannot be based on finding a unicorn. 256 00:23:06,900 - > 00:23:10,799 [C: No. No. All right, so let's talk about kind of the root causes. 257 00:23:10,799 - > 00:23:15,319 Why is it the organizations fall into this role? Why is it that, that again, like, 258 00:23:15,880 - > 00:23:20,559 it's, it's, it's painfully more common to people than they realize having the wrong 259 00:23:20,559 - > 00:23:28,920 fit or a bad leader into the role. And I think one of the biggest causes is the urgent hires. 260 00:23:28,920 - > 00:23:29,680 [JAMES]: Yeah. 261 00:23:29,680 - > 00:23:34,319 Because I mean, like, you know, whether it's through, like, you know, again, like 262 00:23:35,200 - > 00:23:39,039 a, retirement that kind of happened a little bit sooner than expected or 263 00:23:39,680 - > 00:23:44,480 someone, moved on to another job and they, and they just put somebody into the role temporarily 264 00:23:44,480 - > 00:23:50,880 and then they just made them the, the CEO or whatever it is. Those are often again, like 265 00:23:50,880 - > 00:23:56,680 hiring urgently and then, and not having strategic intent with do we have the right person? 266 00:23:56,680 - > 00:24:01,960 Or like you said, were we in a situation where we needed, where this, where the organization was 267 00:24:01,960 - > 00:24:06,000 going through a transition for a year, so we hired the perfect person for that transition, but now 268 00:24:06,000 - > 00:24:10,119 they're still here three years later and they, and they're. We've hit the ceiling on their skill set. 269 00:24:10,119 - > 00:24:11,000 [JAMES]: Yep. 270 00:24:11,000 - > 00:24:11,289 [COBY]: Right. 271 00:24:11,289 - > 00:24:16,759 And that's really common. That's really common where you, like, organizations go, 272 00:24:17,920 - > 00:24:23,599 you lose some, you lose a critical leadership position. And it's a scramble of, 273 00:24:23,599 - > 00:24:29,279 we need somebody in this position. We need somebody who can stabilize somebody who can be, 274 00:24:29,279 - > 00:24:32,960 who can work, you know, with the staff, rebuild relationships, 275 00:24:33,839 - > 00:24:38,119 address the structural issues. So we're going to find that we found a great person, 276 00:24:38,119 - > 00:24:44,200 we're going to hire them and they do a phenomenal job because you've hired for the right skill set, 277 00:24:47,519 - > 00:24:52,680 but you've hired somebody who can do what was necessary 278 00:24:52,680 - > 00:24:56,108 a year ago or two years ago to get you back to a place where you can grow. 279 00:24:56,108 - > 00:24:56,480 [COBY]: Right. 280 00:24:56,480 - > 00:24:59,680 [JAMES]: They may, they probably don't have that same, 281 00:24:59,680 - > 00:25:03,960 that next set of skills that you need to take the company to the next level. 282 00:25:03,960 - > 00:25:09,039 And then you're into this situation of, well, we've just hired this person do we fire them? 283 00:25:09,039 - > 00:25:16,880 Well, the other thing that I've seen a lot too is they, they like. I've talked to a number of 284 00:25:16,880 - > 00:25:24,039 boards that have, like, like that, like nonprofit boards that have lost their, their ED or their CEO 285 00:25:24,559 - > 00:25:31,799 and they go, okay, well, we seem to hire the person who, who. The one that we lost wasn't like, 286 00:25:31,799 - > 00:25:37,000 like, like the upgrade of that person. But they, but they ignore the, the fact that they're in this 287 00:25:37,000 - > 00:25:43,319 messy transition period where the new person can't come in and hit the ground running because the 288 00:25:43,319 - > 00:25:48,759 organization is not ready for them to do that. And you hired for this growth skill set. But you're in 289 00:25:48,759 - > 00:25:53,160 this, but you're in this messy transition period and the person doesn't have the skills to handle 290 00:25:53,160 - > 00:26:00,160 the mess. And you've set them up to fail. Because one, I can't think of any nonprofit that you and I 291 00:26:00,160 - > 00:26:06,000 are actually, or any, municipal organization or I can't think of any business that we've talked to 292 00:26:06,000 - > 00:26:11,160 about that's been in this period that somebody at the table we were talking to wasn't pushing. Let's 293 00:26:11,160 - > 00:26:17,920 just hire someone now. Let's just recruit them right now. And they hate it when we say slow down. 294 00:26:18,640 - > 00:26:23,799 You need to make sure that you can hire the person that you need when you need them. 295 00:26:24,400 - > 00:26:31,759 And most organizations don't love that advice because they want this to be over. So they force 296 00:26:31,759 - > 00:26:37,359 speed over rigorous. And that is a fundamental mistake when you're in these messy situations. 297 00:26:37,359 - > 00:26:45,559 [JAME: And this is where acting roles can become problematic. Yeah, 298 00:26:46,359 - > 00:26:54,000 I've seen it many times. I see it. I think I've seen it. I've probably seen it more so in non, 299 00:26:56,039 - > 00:27:01,839 in NGOs than I have in private sector. But I've seen it in private sector as well, where somebody 300 00:27:01,839 - > 00:27:09,559 will be appointed, as a, you know, we lost this critical manager leader role. We're going to, 301 00:27:09,559 - > 00:27:16,400 just appoint somebody from the team, to serve in that position until we figure out what's going on. 302 00:27:17,559 - > 00:27:24,759 And then, okay, we were six months down the road and the house hasn't burned down around us. So 303 00:27:24,759 - > 00:27:31,519 let's take away the acting title and just make them the full time, later in the role 304 00:27:33,319 - > 00:27:39,519 that I haven't seen. I have not seen that work out well. Often I've seen that. 305 00:27:40,319 - > 00:27:54,559 I've seen the reverse far more common where. I can think of a couple pointed examples that 306 00:27:48,000 - > 00:28:04,200 I, I'm trying to not make it obvious, but when somebody is brought into that 307 00:27:57,640 - > 00:28:11,799 role, it's usually with. It's usually A stretch for them already in an acting position. 308 00:28:04,759 - > 00:28:17,119 This is a new set of responsibilities. It's a new way of doing things. It's a new set of skills 309 00:28:11,799 - > 00:28:23,680 that you're going to have to develop and you can keep it, keep things together fairly 310 00:28:18,200 - > 00:28:31,000 well, you know, for a short period of time. Over time that lack the gap between 311 00:28:24,880 - > 00:28:36,519 the skills required for long term, sustainability and growth are very 312 00:28:31,599 - > 00:28:40,960 different than the skills required to just keep the ship running in the 313 00:28:37,240 - > 00:28:40,960 same direction in the short term. 314 00:28:40,960 - > 00:28:45,400 Well, I mean, you and I have said that there's a big difference. People really need to 315 00:28:45,400 - > 00:28:49,880 understand almost like what an act, what is the definition of an acting role? And, and what's the 316 00:28:49,880 - > 00:28:58,039 definition of an interim role? Because an acting role is, is you are. So if you become the acting 317 00:28:58,039 - > 00:29:08,200 CEO, you still have your main job's worth of duties and you're taking on usually 60% of the 318 00:29:08,759 - > 00:29:13,559 of the acting role. So you're, so you're just doing the stuff to keep the lights on, 319 00:29:13,559 - > 00:29:19,119 you're keeping the place from burning down. Is your, is, is the ceiling that you're, 320 00:29:19,119 - > 00:29:26,799 that you're looking for. Right. So them just kind of treading water is success in an acting role. 321 00:29:26,799 - > 00:29:31,559 Which is why it's so dangerous to think, well, if they were successful in the acting role, 322 00:29:31,559 - > 00:29:36,119 they'll be successful in this role because they were only able to tread water. 323 00:29:36,119 - > 00:29:40,640 Yeah. And the problem that I've seen is that it's not, it's not even necessarily 324 00:29:40,640 - > 00:29:46,880 that the person wasn't, couldn't have been a good fit. It's that we stopped supporting them. 325 00:29:46,880 - > 00:29:47,115 [COBY]: Yeah. 326 00:29:47,115 - > 00:29:53,400 We didn't invest in their skills. We didn't invest in making sure that 327 00:29:53,400 - > 00:29:59,640 they would be set up for long term success, not just the immediate stability success. 328 00:29:59,640 - > 00:30:03,559 Right. Yeah, we, we said, we said tread, tread water for a while and then 329 00:30:03,559 - > 00:30:07,240 we'll check back on you in six months. Oh, you traded water. You're doing this job well. 330 00:30:07,240 - > 00:30:11,000 [JAM: Yeah. You haven't drowned yet, so keep going indefinitely. 331 00:30:11,000 - > 00:30:15,759 Right. But the reality should be, okay, you're gonna, we need you to tread water for the, 332 00:30:15,759 - > 00:30:20,640 for the first three months. Then if you do well, we'll start investing in your development to see 333 00:30:20,640 - > 00:30:25,020 if you could actually swim full strength, you know, like become the person that we want. 334 00:30:25,020 - > 00:30:29,799 We'll get you a life preserver, then we'll get you a, boat. Right. Like. 335 00:30:29,799 - > 00:30:34,880 Yeah, exactly. And whereas so, so again, an acting role is usually they step 336 00:30:34,880 - > 00:30:41,039 in and they're doing 60% of the job for a short amount of time. An interim Role is they step in 337 00:30:41,039 - > 00:30:47,599 and they're doing 100% of the job, but they're doing it under a much tighter timeline or, 338 00:30:47,599 - > 00:30:53,759 sorry, a defined timeline usually have a specific mandate. It's like, get us to this point, 339 00:30:53,759 - > 00:30:59,599 then the job ends. And that's usually what an interim role is. Usually interim roles are, 340 00:31:00,759 - > 00:31:06,480 a year, maybe, maybe two at the most. But they're about, they're about going through a transition 341 00:31:07,000 - > 00:31:13,079 and having 100% of the job for a transition, and then that job ends and then someone new or if 342 00:31:13,079 - > 00:31:17,880 that person could be hired, if they, if they've shown the growth. But like it's a defined scope 343 00:31:17,880 - > 00:31:22,319 and they nail that defined scope. But that, but that defined scope does not mean that they have 344 00:31:22,319 - > 00:31:26,119 the ability to work, to do the job indefinitely because they just had to hit that scope. 345 00:31:26,119 - > 00:31:30,680 Well, it's like we've been saying all along, it's getting the organization 346 00:31:30,680 - > 00:31:36,079 to a point where they can hire the skill sets that they need for, for the future, 347 00:31:36,079 - > 00:31:39,640 not just the skill sets that they need for the immediate. 348 00:31:39,640 - > 00:31:46,240 Right, absolutely. So we see again, we see a major cause of the wrong leader in the 349 00:31:46,839 - > 00:31:52,559 wrong position because of the urgent hires. Right. So, and again, often the urgent hires are 350 00:31:52,559 - > 00:31:58,160 a immediate appointing of an acting or an interim and then just taking away that interim or acting 351 00:31:58,160 - > 00:32:04,039 because they didn't drown. so that's one of the major causes. But actually I want to touch 352 00:32:04,039 - > 00:32:12,279 on that too. Another cause that we sometimes see is that they, that they didn't get the, 353 00:32:12,279 - > 00:32:16,160 they didn't recruit for the right skill set that they were looking for. They recruited for 354 00:32:16,160 - > 00:32:22,759 sometimes the safest skill set or the people that were hiring were acting on limited information and 355 00:32:22,759 - > 00:32:26,599 didn't have the full scope of what they actually needed. They just hired the wrong skills because 356 00:32:26,599 - > 00:32:31,480 they were misunderstood. The actual skills that they needed for the roles. They hired the safest 357 00:32:31,480 - > 00:32:36,119 person or they hired the one that, with, with an antiquated skill set or whatever. Right. 358 00:32:36,119 - > 00:32:42,799 Yeah. And this is unfortunately common if there's a disconnect between those who are hiring 359 00:32:42,799 - > 00:32:51,079 and the operational reality. Yeah, it's why we strongly like we, we really push investigations, 360 00:32:52,000 - > 00:32:57,839 because you need the context to understand what you need in the short term, what you need in the 361 00:32:57,839 - > 00:33:03,440 medium term. And then it's the strategic vision, the goals, the strap planning, 362 00:33:04,160 - > 00:33:06,839 that's going to determine what we need in the long term. 363 00:33:06,839 - > 00:33:11,880 But those things are often not the same, especially when you're going through crisis, 364 00:33:12,599 - > 00:33:18,119 or going through growth or going through, you know, a loss in leadership. positions. 365 00:33:20,920 - > 00:33:28,160 It's really. I know, I, we keep harping on the same thing, but it's really important 366 00:33:28,160 - > 00:33:33,160 to understand the context in which you are operating today and the context in 367 00:33:33,160 - > 00:33:39,759 which you want to operate tomorrow. Because if you hire somebody who can only focus on today, 368 00:33:41,119 - > 00:33:44,119 you're, you're shooting yourself in the foot for tomorrow. 369 00:33:44,119 - > 00:33:51,599 [C: Yep. Yeah. So, I think that one of the things that just to kind of 370 00:33:52,559 - > 00:33:58,039 almost like take that point but adjust it a little bit is the idea of, One of the other kind of root 371 00:33:58,039 - > 00:34:05,279 causes tends to be when we almost like conflate competence with leadership. Like when somebody 372 00:34:05,279 - > 00:34:10,880 is really good at their current role and we say okay, because they're really good at this 373 00:34:10,880 - > 00:34:16,119 current role, then we end up over promoting them into, into, into a role that the Peter Princip. 374 00:34:17,079 - > 00:34:21,239 Exactly. Yes. So that's another side of it too. They think, well, this person's been around 375 00:34:21,239 - > 00:34:26,199 for a long time. They know everybody, they're really good at their current role. So then was, 376 00:34:26,199 - > 00:34:32,159 well, you know, then they would be a good fit to become the new CEO. And again, that's just 377 00:34:32,159 - > 00:34:37,239 as broken as not having, as not understanding the operational realities that you need, that you need 378 00:34:37,239 - > 00:34:44,159 the person to work in. Right. again, it's trying to simplify a very. If you're trying to find easy 379 00:34:44,159 - > 00:34:48,639 answers to a really complex problem is. Tends to be where a lot of recruitment errors come from. 380 00:34:48,639 - > 00:34:58,159 Yeah. I think another big root cause of all of this is fear. Yep. It's the, 381 00:34:58,840 - > 00:35:05,400 especially if a, you have somebody in the role who's not necessarily terrible but you know that 382 00:35:05,400 - > 00:35:11,039 they're the wrong fit or they, you, you can see that they, you know, maybe they're not 383 00:35:13,400 - > 00:35:19,760 dropping the ball at every turn and maybe you don't have mass exodus of staff because of their 384 00:35:19,760 - > 00:35:27,480 terrible leadership or management practices. But there's a fear of disruption. There's a fear that, 385 00:35:27,480 - > 00:35:33,159 well, if we remove this person, how long is it going to take for us to find the next, 386 00:35:33,159 - > 00:35:39,360 the right person? What is going to happen in the meantime? How are staff going to react? 387 00:35:41,440 - > 00:35:46,800 it's, it. I think fear holds back a lot of decision making because, 388 00:35:47,840 - > 00:35:50,159 well, it's the devil you know, versus the devil you don't. 389 00:35:50,159 - > 00:35:50,510 [COBY]: Right. 390 00:35:50,510 - > 00:35:51,079 [JAMES]: Yeah. 391 00:35:51,079 - > 00:35:51,280 [COBY]: Right. 392 00:35:51,280 - > 00:35:56,559 And we, we know that this person. It also complicates things when you have a, when they're 393 00:35:56,559 - > 00:36:03,840 a nice person. Yeah. When they're somebody who's pleasant, who maybe. And you know, maybe they get 394 00:36:03,840 - > 00:36:09,800 along really well with the teams. Maybe they've done a good job. In building some camaraderie 395 00:36:09,800 - > 00:36:19,880 and building a, an environment where people feel safe, ah, to speak up and engaged in their work. 396 00:36:20,760 - > 00:36:26,039 But maybe, but they don't have those skills that you need to take the company to the next level. 397 00:36:26,039 - > 00:36:26,840 [COBY]: Right. 398 00:36:26,840 - > 00:36:32,119 There's a lot of fear that will hold back decision making in terms of 399 00:36:32,119 - > 00:36:35,599 what's going to happen if we go down this road. 400 00:36:35,599 - > 00:36:40,079 Because I mean like just to touch on what you said, because sometimes it's a matter of the 401 00:36:40,079 - > 00:36:47,320 leader, the CEO, the executive has good leadership skills. Like they are consensus builder. They 402 00:36:47,320 - > 00:36:50,400 do care about building people up and everything like that too. They've got those personal 403 00:36:50,400 - > 00:36:55,519 qualities that make them people, people want to follow them, but they're a bad manager. They're. 404 00:36:55,519 - > 00:36:58,960 They don't hit timelines, they don't know how to build systems, they don't know how to delegate. 405 00:36:58,960 - > 00:36:59,639 [JAMES]: They. 406 00:36:59,639 - > 00:37:06,000 So all these things that are essential to the actual growth and operations get completely 407 00:37:06,000 - > 00:37:11,840 missed. But because they've got the great leadership qualities, it masks it or it makes the, 408 00:37:11,840 - > 00:37:22,239 the, the option of living with the, the, the damage a bit more, you know, seem less risky than, 409 00:37:22,239 - > 00:37:26,880 you know, than the correcting the bad hire. Right. I mean like, so it's one of those things where 410 00:37:26,880 - > 00:37:32,239 it's almost like it erodes it slowly and then you don't realize how far you've come because 411 00:37:32,239 - > 00:37:39,719 the person seems to be again, very surface level, have the right things in place. But 412 00:37:35,920 - > 00:37:46,639 then when you actually dig down there's, it's not built on anything. Which is why we always 413 00:37:40,239 - > 00:37:53,599 say again, going back to leaders shape systems and if that system is dependent on them, then it 414 00:37:46,639 - > 00:37:59,039 may seem like, you know, from a surface level that if they are, if they do have psychological safety 415 00:37:53,599 - > 00:38:06,960 and if they are very you know, like staff focused and they, and they are pleasant to talk to and, 416 00:37:59,039 - > 00:38:13,679 but everything's dependent on them. You as a board of directors, you as a shareholder may not know 417 00:38:06,960 - > 00:38:20,079 that this is not a good scenario, that this is bad because there's no system for them to operate 418 00:38:13,679 - > 00:38:26,920 on everything. They, they become this linchpin that is, is damaging the organization. But you 419 00:38:20,079 - > 00:38:32,800 don't realize it because you miss some of these yellow and red flags and then the fear of okay, 420 00:38:27,880 - > 00:38:37,119 well it can't be that bad to fix it. Let's just, you know, let's just kind of live, live with 421 00:38:32,800 - > 00:38:40,400 this rather than actually kind of correcting it is like you say, it's just that we don't 422 00:38:37,119 - > 00:38:44,719 want to disrupt things that are working. So we'll Just let it go. And that's just hit 423 00:38:40,400 - > 00:38:51,079 that multiplier effect where the problem, this compound to compound to compounds and by the 424 00:38:44,719 - > 00:38:51,079 time something does break, the fix is massive. 425 00:38:51,079 - > 00:38:57,119 [JAM: Yeah. And sometimes it's. It's reframing the solution or the 426 00:38:57,119 - > 00:39:02,639 goal of what we're trying to do. Sometimes it's not only how do we get rid of this person. 427 00:39:02,639 - > 00:39:03,760 [COBY]: Yeah. 428 00:39:03,760 - > 00:39:11,320 Because in some cases it's. That may not actually be, you know, the best solution. 429 00:39:11,320 - > 00:39:12,000 [COBY]: No. 430 00:39:12,000 - > 00:39:17,480 Sometimes the. Maybe the reframing or the goal needs to be more around. How do 431 00:39:17,480 - > 00:39:22,719 we stabilize the system so that no single person can destabilize it. 432 00:39:22,719 - > 00:39:23,340 [COBY]: Right. 433 00:39:23,340 - > 00:39:30,320 How do we put the structures in place? How do we create more autonomy, more 434 00:39:31,280 - > 00:39:37,559 how do we divest, decision making throughout the organization? How do we de risk 435 00:39:38,679 - > 00:39:44,679 bad m. Leadership or ineffective leadership or a, mismatch in skill set in leadership? 436 00:39:44,679 - > 00:39:45,239 [COBY]: Right. 437 00:39:45,239 - > 00:39:50,039 This needs to be viewed from a risk management perspective. I think that's. 438 00:39:50,639 - > 00:39:56,159 That. That's one takeaway that I would encourage people to look at. Reframing this conversation 439 00:39:56,159 - > 00:40:01,880 through is risk management. What is the risk to the organization? What are the. How do we 440 00:40:01,880 - > 00:40:09,960 create systems and structures and supports that are not dependent on any one person? 441 00:40:09,960 - > 00:40:15,039 Yeah. Because one of the things that we really want to also make clear. We talked 442 00:40:15,039 - > 00:40:19,079 about this in a recent episode. We talked about about, is comfort kind of good or 443 00:40:19,079 - > 00:40:25,599 bad at work. But we talked about the sunk cost fallacy. Yeah. The idea that, well, you know, 444 00:40:26,360 - > 00:40:32,000 if we already have this leader in place, you've already invested time in them, 445 00:40:32,000 - > 00:40:38,920 then, you know, we'll just kind of keep putting good money after bad. That is completely a, like, 446 00:40:39,639 - > 00:40:45,480 completely going against the value of risk management, like you said, because we really 447 00:40:45,480 - > 00:40:53,800 want to make sure that we are fully aware of the consequences that, you know, like that letting 448 00:40:53,800 - > 00:40:58,800 this stuff go, putting good money after bad. What. This really does hurt us. So it's really important 449 00:40:58,800 - > 00:41:03,559 for us to not fall into this on cost fallacy of just, you know, like we've already put the time 450 00:41:03,559 - > 00:41:07,159 into it, but you kind of have it in place. Let's just kind of, kind of let it go. We need to like 451 00:41:07,159 - > 00:41:10,760 you say, have that risk management approach. Because risk management should be something 452 00:41:10,760 - > 00:41:14,960 that we are always looking at, not when things go wrong. We should be looking at a risk management. 453 00:41:14,960 - > 00:41:19,719 No, you want to, you want to do your risk management while things are operating well. 454 00:41:19,719 - > 00:41:20,280 [COBY]: Right. 455 00:41:20,280 - > 00:41:23,920 [JAME: So that when you hit the rough patch, you have a strategy, 456 00:41:23,920 - > 00:41:28,559 you have a plan in place and you can respond rather than react. 457 00:41:28,559 - > 00:41:34,000 Yeah. So how can you do that? And I think that's probably, you know, 458 00:41:34,519 - > 00:41:37,679 the, the most, the most important question that I hope you listening are actually, 459 00:41:37,679 - > 00:41:40,920 we're actually waiting for us to get to because like you said, you only 460 00:41:40,920 - > 00:41:42,679 [JA: had to wait 40 minutes for. 461 00:41:42,679 - > 00:41:49,239 Yeah, but like you said, we don't say just get rid of the person. We say, you know, if, if at 462 00:41:49,239 - > 00:41:55,360 all possible, if, if the person has, you know, if there is the ability for the person to come back 463 00:41:55,360 - > 00:42:00,599 from the situation, if you know, then training and those pieces like that too can be helpful. 464 00:42:00,599 - > 00:42:10,440 But a really effective leadership coach, professional development, with some clear 465 00:42:03,840 - > 00:42:10,440 expectations of what you want to see changed. 466 00:42:10,440 - > 00:42:10,840 [COBY]: Yeah. 467 00:42:10,840 - > 00:42:12,440 [JAMES]: Can be a first step. 468 00:42:12,440 - > 00:42:21,280 Yeah. But actually even before that, that's usually a great action. But usually 469 00:42:15,960 - > 00:42:28,199 the first step is, is to have an external diagnostic of your organization to assess 470 00:42:21,840 - > 00:42:33,519 the risk, to assess the situations to again to bring someone in that will be able 471 00:42:28,199 - > 00:42:39,280 to kind of unearth some of the pieces that maybe are. Everyone is kind of blind to. Because 472 00:42:33,519 - > 00:42:39,280 it's just part of their everyday and data to. 473 00:42:39,280 - > 00:42:40,880 [JAME: For your decision making. 474 00:42:40,880 - > 00:42:46,639 Yes. Have an objective view about realizing, identifying the risks, realizing 475 00:42:46,639 - > 00:42:50,280 you know, being able to kind of like see the system that does exist, 476 00:42:50,280 - > 00:42:54,599 see the good and the bad and then give you options based on that. 477 00:42:54,599 - > 00:42:58,840 And that's the kind of thing. And that's why when we go into organizations, regardless of, 478 00:42:58,840 - > 00:43:03,679 of kind of what their, what their situation is, if it's growth, if it's merger, if it's crisis, 479 00:43:03,679 - > 00:43:09,079 we always do the diagnostic first because we want to have that objective third party view to kind 480 00:43:09,079 - > 00:43:13,320 of unearth stuff and ask the right questions so we can see what is the best path forward. 481 00:43:13,320 - > 00:43:20,400 [JA: Well, and part of it is we specialize in particular areas. And 482 00:43:22,840 - > 00:43:25,199 at the risk of sounding arrogant. 483 00:43:25,199 - > 00:43:27,199 [COBY]: You're starting now. 484 00:43:28,159 - > 00:43:32,280 [JAMES]: Okay. We're a little beyond the risk. right. 485 00:43:32,280 - > 00:43:33,599 [COBY]: Sounding arrogant. 486 00:43:33,599 - > 00:43:39,639 Sounding arrogant. The data that we collect is usually better than the data 487 00:43:39,639 - > 00:43:49,000 that we're given because especially for the owner, CEO, founder level, 488 00:43:49,880 - > 00:43:54,400 it's really hard to have an objective view of something that you're very close to. 489 00:43:54,400 - > 00:43:54,960 [COBY]: Yeah. 490 00:43:54,960 - > 00:44:01,320 [JAMES]: And usually they know. Well, they know what they want to do 491 00:44:01,320 - > 00:44:05,639 and they usually have a pretty good sense of what the problem is. 492 00:44:06,159 - > 00:44:11,760 But where that problem stems from is sometimes difficult to 493 00:44:12,719 - > 00:44:21,199 assess on your own. And that's something that we do. And so the initial diagnostic or investigation 494 00:44:22,039 - > 00:44:28,840 gives us clarity to make sure that any recommendations that happen going forward 495 00:44:28,840 - > 00:44:34,480 are tailored to the outcomes that you want based on the reality of the situation you're In. Right. 496 00:44:34,480 - > 00:44:45,320 [COB: Because most of the time the executive, the board, the leadership team, 497 00:44:36,559 - > 00:44:45,320 the staff are very aware of the symptoms. 498 00:44:45,320 - > 00:44:46,000 [JAMES]: Yes. 499 00:44:46,000 - > 00:44:50,679 [COBY]: But they often don't have the perspective or, 500 00:44:50,679 - > 00:44:55,280 or even know the right questions to ask to get to the heart of the sickness. Well. 501 00:44:55,280 - > 00:44:58,880 [JAME: And they often all, each have a piece of the puzzle. Right, 502 00:44:59,400 - > 00:45:04,280 right. And so it's collecting all the puzzle pieces and putting it together in a way that 503 00:45:04,280 - > 00:45:10,880 makes sense, that tells a narrative of here's what's happening and here's why it's happening. 504 00:45:10,880 - > 00:45:14,719 [COBY]: Exactly. So often. Yes. So the first thing that again, 505 00:45:15,360 - > 00:45:20,000 these, these organizational assessments are great. Identifying risks. And it's great to 506 00:45:20,000 - > 00:45:25,760 do these assessments while everything is working well. It'd be, it's. We don't get to do it very 507 00:45:25,760 - > 00:45:29,079 often, but we love when we get to go into an organization where things are working well and 508 00:45:29,079 - > 00:45:32,239 we can say here are the things that are going to be coming up that you may want to be aware of. 509 00:45:32,239 - > 00:45:37,400 We've got a couple of those. And they are, they're a pleasure. They are a pleasure. 510 00:45:37,400 - > 00:45:41,360 Yes. As opposed to our usual. Which is, okay, so everything's on fire, 511 00:45:41,360 - > 00:45:43,199 the house is burning down, please help. 512 00:45:43,199 - > 00:45:49,880 Yes, exactly. so that's the first one thing we say because often with those 513 00:45:49,880 - > 00:45:56,079 strategies that come from the assessments, because assessments are usually just the means to 514 00:45:51,199 - > 00:46:01,559 get the strategy and the strategy is usually ah, recommendation, let's say on leadership coaching, 515 00:45:56,079 - > 00:46:05,079 on kind of mentorship programs that can work on professional development, on new structures 516 00:46:01,559 - > 00:46:11,119 and organizations and stuff like that. Too often though, when you get that strategy it's 517 00:46:05,719 - > 00:46:15,880 like, okay, well we have this. But now what this is when the other pieces of advice are usually 518 00:46:11,119 - > 00:46:22,079 very helpful which are leveraging external, supports through either fractional executives 519 00:46:16,519 - > 00:46:26,719 bringing in somebody experience a perspective that can actually have the skill set to help implement 520 00:46:22,079 - > 00:46:32,840 the things that are needed to improve the systems without again, you know, without running 521 00:46:27,360 - > 00:46:32,840 the risk of falling into the, not 522 00:46:32,840 - > 00:46:38,679 hiring them full time. it's usually on a number of hours a week or a month. 523 00:46:39,920 - > 00:46:48,960 it's a way of accessing high level talent, with low risk. And I mean there's obviously a cost 524 00:46:48,960 - > 00:46:53,840 associated with it because you're paying for expertise. But fractional executives, 525 00:46:53,840 - > 00:47:01,559 fractional support can be a really important way to increase organizational capacity and skill. 526 00:47:01,559 - > 00:47:09,440 [COBY]: Yeah. And then, and then once you know what has to be achieved 527 00:47:05,079 - > 00:47:15,119 and you have your plan for how long it's going to take you, looking at transitional leadership 528 00:47:09,440 - > 00:47:20,960 or interim leadership of someone else coming in to create space to fix the systems without kind 529 00:47:15,119 - > 00:47:25,920 of Triggering organizational panic. Right. You're bringing in somebody on like who's going to 530 00:47:20,960 - > 00:47:30,320 be creating a new position possibly or you're. Or you're replacing somebody with a fractional 531 00:47:25,920 - > 00:47:35,440 or sorry, an interim or transitional leader who's just whose job it is to move you from where 532 00:47:30,320 - > 00:47:40,559 you are to where you need to be that's stable. So that way you. They're either not needed anymore 533 00:47:35,440 - > 00:47:45,559 or you can bring on someone permanent. These, this messy transition period is something that 534 00:47:40,559 - > 00:47:51,079 you're going to be going through. So you almost need to just have the right tools to get through 535 00:47:45,559 - > 00:47:55,039 it and not expect everyone to help you navigate this messy transition off the side of their desk 536 00:47:51,079 - > 00:47:58,559 or assuming that they have the skill sets, because often they don't. These are very specialized 537 00:47:55,039 - > 00:48:03,519 skills sometimes. So you want to make sure you've got the right people in the right place to get 538 00:47:58,559 - > 00:48:10,679 you where you want to get to, which will save you time, money, talent, all the kind of stuff that 539 00:48:03,519 - > 00:48:10,679 you want. But you have to invest in it. Right. 540 00:48:10,679 - > 00:48:14,639 I think what I want to leave people with or the kind of last thing that I want to 541 00:48:14,639 - > 00:48:21,320 say is around. The most dangerous leadership hire isn't always the one that's the loudest or the 542 00:48:21,320 - > 00:48:27,159 most obviously the worst. It's the one that your organization becomes too dependent on to question. 543 00:48:27,920 - > 00:48:34,039 Yeah, absolutely. It's. You're right, it's. It's the one that. Where 544 00:48:34,039 - > 00:48:39,440 it's too ingrained and too. And you're right, dependent is really. Is really key to it. Which 545 00:48:39,440 - > 00:48:44,320 is what the whole idea of the law lynch is about. But law enforcement is not about blaming someone. 546 00:48:44,320 - > 00:48:50,039 It's not about saying this person's a problem or it's about recognizing that there's a risk, 547 00:48:50,559 - > 00:48:55,199 there is a problem. There's a system structure that, that has to create dependency. 548 00:48:55,199 - > 00:49:01,679 Yeah. We have put our organization at risk because we are so dependent on somebody. 549 00:49:01,679 - > 00:49:07,239 This can even be somebody who is incredibly effective. But if your organization success 550 00:49:07,239 - > 00:49:13,880 lives and dies with one person, that is a massive risk that you need to mitigate and address. 551 00:49:13,880 - > 00:49:19,719 Right. But the idea of recognizing these risks is to do the best scenario is to 552 00:49:19,719 - > 00:49:25,800 do it early enough. They still have choices that you still have options that you are not trying to 553 00:49:26,440 - > 00:49:33,039 only see the fact that there was a fire risk while the building is burning down. Right. 554 00:49:33,039 - > 00:49:37,000 So it's really important to understand that the law of the linchpin is just to say that this is 555 00:49:37,000 - > 00:49:40,760 something that's built into structures. This happens. This is an organic thing. 556 00:49:40,760 - > 00:49:45,000 It's a common stumbling block. Especially when it comes to growth. So this is something 557 00:49:45,000 - > 00:49:51,159 that is going to be in your organization. So if you need to find a way to de risk it and there 558 00:49:51,159 - > 00:49:55,639 are solutions that you can to do it, but it's best to do those things before the fire starts. 559 00:49:57,480 - > 00:50:03,119 All right, so I think that about does it for us. For a full archive, of the podcast and access 560 00:50:03,119 - > 00:50:09,719 to video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us. 561 00:50:09,719 - > 00:50:13,559 [ANNOU: For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit 562 00:50:13,559 - > 00:50:19,119 us at Roman3.ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, 563 00:50:19,119 - > 00:50:23,480 high productivity, increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance, 564 00:50:23,480 - > 00:50:27,710 dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast, M.