Leadership Tips: Nepotism & Favoritism, Open Door Policies, Emotions in Leadership

1 00:00:00,000 - > 00:00:05,519 Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness, 2 00:00:05,519 - > 00:00:10,199 not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby. 3 00:00:10,199 - > 00:00:12,000 [COBY]: Did we lose a patient? 4 00:00:12,000 - > 00:00:14,960 [JAME: No, that's just my lunch. 5 00:00:14,960 - > 00:00:23,640 Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James, and let's talk leadership. 6 00:00:23,640 - > 00:00:31,519 Yeah. So I really enjoy these leadership, teams tips episodes. we have a lot of fun with 7 00:00:31,519 - > 00:00:37,439 them and they seem to get a lot of really positive reactions. And so this first one, 8 00:00:37,439 - > 00:00:45,280 the first topic that I, I want to talk about is around the dangers of nepotism, favoritism and 9 00:00:45,280 - > 00:00:52,159 conflict of interest. And this. We've talked about nepotism before and it was actually a, comment on 10 00:00:52,159 - > 00:00:58,079 our YouTube, channel that kind of prompted us to revisit it again, asking us to specifically, 11 00:00:58,079 - > 00:01:06,799 you know, look at how does this relate to in the non profit world. so leadership tips around 12 00:01:06,799 - > 00:01:15,280 nepotism is nepotism, favoritism and conflict of interest happen all the time. So how do we 13 00:01:15,280 - > 00:01:24,159 deal with that reality and how as leaders can we try to insulate ourselves from the effects of it? 14 00:01:24,159 - > 00:01:29,920 Yeah, I think it's important to kind of talk a little bit about the, kind of like give 15 00:01:29,920 - > 00:01:37,359 a little bit of context to why leadership and sorry, but why, why nepotism? So in leadership, 16 00:01:37,359 - > 00:01:43,840 why nepotism and conflict of interest are, are something that is really unavoidable in a 17 00:01:43,840 - > 00:01:52,560 lot of contexts. So whether it's in the private sector or, or nonprofit or you know, or I guess 18 00:01:52,560 - > 00:01:57,280 not really in government, but mostly nonprofit and private sector. When you're talking about 19 00:01:58,719 - > 00:02:10,560 organizations that are in either like smaller regions or are populated by smaller communities 20 00:02:10,560 - > 00:02:18,960 or are part of generational, have a generational history to them. Often things like nepotism and 21 00:02:18,960 - > 00:02:24,960 conflict of interest are really kind of like factual realities. So a good example is like, 22 00:02:24,960 - > 00:02:29,759 so we've worked with organizations in the private sector that have been in like the 23 00:02:29,759 - > 00:02:38,080 long standing sectors like fisheries, like transportation and railroading and like 24 00:02:38,080 - > 00:02:47,759 agriculture and stuff like that. And often in those sectors, it's families and long standing. 25 00:02:47,759 - > 00:02:51,199 [J: I'm a railroader because my father was a railroader because his 26 00:02:51,199 - > 00:02:56,280 father was. Yeah, like we, we literally heard that when working with clients in that sector. 27 00:02:56,280 - > 00:03:05,039 Yeah, or like I own a big firm that, and I hire from the people down the road who've 28 00:03:05,039 - > 00:03:10,240 been working for my family for a long time or, or we work with other firms and their 29 00:03:10,240 - > 00:03:16,080 generational pieces. So. And sometimes, and often there's marriages involved in those close kind of 30 00:03:16,080 - > 00:03:20,719 communities and stuff. Like that and, or the other thing too is that there's a lot of organizations 31 00:03:20,719 - > 00:03:29,360 that are owned by groups like First Nations Communities or stuff like that that are part of 32 00:03:29,360 - > 00:03:36,080 their legacy and part of their mandate and part of their purpose is to support their community. 33 00:03:36,080 - > 00:03:36,719 [JAMES]: Right. 34 00:03:36,719 - > 00:03:40,719 [COBY: And so they're populated by members of their community. 35 00:03:40,719 - > 00:03:46,159 The point that I would want to stress early on is that in many cases nepotism in and 36 00:03:46,159 - > 00:03:55,439 of itself is not always negative. It's, there are absolutely contexts in where it should be avoided. 37 00:03:56,240 - > 00:04:02,479 but I mean if we, we see it a lot in you know, small medium sized family businesses, 38 00:04:02,479 - > 00:04:06,719 right. Where it's either the first generation, second generation, 39 00:04:07,599 - > 00:04:13,360 business that has, it has grown up and has grown into bit of a powerhouse and 40 00:04:13,360 - > 00:04:17,920 has become kind of an economic engine for an entire family to develop. 41 00:04:17,920 - > 00:04:18,480 [COBY]: Ah. 42 00:04:18,480 - > 00:04:21,839 [J: And that is going to happen. 43 00:04:21,839 - > 00:04:22,720 [COBY]: Yeah. 44 00:04:22,720 - > 00:04:30,879 And that's not inherently bad. The, where I think the issues become far more 45 00:04:30,879 - > 00:04:38,240 pronounced and far more problematic is in the example that the person made in their comment, 46 00:04:38,240 - > 00:04:43,920 in non profits you are as an executive director or as the CEO of a nonprofit, 47 00:04:43,920 - > 00:04:50,800 you are acting on behalf of somebody other than yourself. in a corporate governance 48 00:04:50,800 - > 00:04:58,480 role you are acting on behalf of people other than yourself. And so making those types of decisions, 49 00:04:58,480 - > 00:05:02,720 especially in a non profit. I think the example was something like they, they ended up letting 50 00:05:02,720 - > 00:05:12,639 two people go and then hired the CEOs wife to be the financial controller. That's a clear 51 00:05:12,639 - > 00:05:21,680 both conflict of interest and way, that nepotism pans out in a very, very negative light. Because 52 00:05:21,680 - > 00:05:30,079 if it was my business, like if, if it was Roman 3 and I decided to hire my wife as our controller, 53 00:05:30,079 - > 00:05:36,319 that's nobody's business other than ours because it's quite literally our business. 54 00:05:36,319 - > 00:05:37,600 [COBY]: Right. Yeah. 55 00:05:37,600 - > 00:05:42,639 But the context is important to understand and I think it's important for 56 00:05:42,639 - > 00:05:49,600 leaders to understand how damaging that context can be. Because we've talked previously about 57 00:05:49,600 - > 00:05:56,720 the difference between nepotism and favoritism and cronyism. favoritism and cronyism I've never 58 00:05:56,720 - > 00:06:03,959 seen work out in a good way. I've only ever seen them produce a net negative. 59 00:06:03,959 - > 00:06:10,560 Yeah. And, and I think that's really where I I want us to draw a line in the sand to say that 60 00:06:10,560 - > 00:06:17,199 conflicts of interest in nepotism, whether it's, it's private or nonprofit sector are, can, are 61 00:06:17,199 - > 00:06:24,399 often a factual reality, sometimes unavoidable, sometimes just the situation. Because again we're 62 00:06:24,399 - > 00:06:31,360 in a small area, our talent pool is small, it's full of a few big families or whatever. Right. 63 00:06:32,079 - > 00:06:40,759 whereas favoritism and cronyism. So cronyism is the idea of hiring people because of their like 64 00:06:40,759 - > 00:06:48,000 mindedness to you or will fall in line and do things the way that you want them done or are 65 00:06:48,000 - > 00:06:54,319 giving special treatment to people that you are, that you are close to, like family. And 66 00:06:54,319 - > 00:07:01,040 favoritism and cronyism are a choice. And I think that that's something that is an, 67 00:07:01,040 - > 00:07:04,639 is an important distinction that nepotism and conflict of interest are a factual reality 68 00:07:04,639 - > 00:07:09,279 and favoritism and cronyism are a choice. And again, going back to the comment that we got in 69 00:07:09,279 - > 00:07:17,759 the YouTube, that was in YouTube comments for our nepotism video. you know, the idea of, you know, 70 00:07:18,319 - > 00:07:24,240 in, in nonprofits you are almost like you have to operate with a higher level of transparency. 71 00:07:24,240 - > 00:07:30,480 You have to have a higher level of, of like defendable rigor in your decision making because 72 00:07:30,480 - > 00:07:36,079 you are dealing with other people's missions and mandates and government money usually in 73 00:07:36,079 - > 00:07:43,839 those and those kind of pieces. And if you are going to hire somebody that is part of 74 00:07:43,839 - > 00:07:50,480 your family or someone that you are very close to and you see there's a conflict of interest, 75 00:07:50,480 - > 00:07:57,360 those are not necessarily an awful thing to do it. If you can defend why this person, 76 00:07:57,360 - > 00:08:03,120 despite that connection, is still the best person for the job, then that's something 77 00:08:03,120 - > 00:08:10,319 that needs to be handled with delicate care, with transparency. And you need to 78 00:08:10,319 - > 00:08:17,519 almost have a bit of a system around. How do you navigate that effectively? Because if you don't, 79 00:08:17,519 - > 00:08:26,399 the perception speaks louder than what the truth could be. but nothing will shatter confidence 80 00:08:26,399 - > 00:08:32,960 internally and possibly even externally as things that look like they are, you know, 81 00:08:32,960 - > 00:08:35,320 [: they don't pass a sniff test. 82 00:08:35,320 - > 00:08:37,480 Yeah. If they, they look corrupt. 83 00:08:37,480 - > 00:08:38,320 [JAMES]: Yeah. 84 00:08:38,320 - > 00:08:44,000 And it's important to just. And that's how people will talk about it as being right, 85 00:08:44,000 - > 00:08:48,679 as being damaging, being corrupt. So it's important to avoid that. 86 00:08:48,679 - > 00:08:54,240 Yeah. And the, the perception is critical here. I started off by saying, 87 00:08:54,240 - > 00:08:57,919 you know, nepotism is not inherently bad. That also means that it's not 88 00:08:57,919 - > 00:09:06,080 inherently good. Right. That it is a, it is neutral. It can go even in a situation where, 89 00:09:06,639 - > 00:09:16,240 you know, you may be full within your rights to choose the candidate based on nepotism. There's 90 00:09:16,240 - > 00:09:21,759 still a perception issue that you have to deal with. There's still a fallout from that decision 91 00:09:21,759 - > 00:09:29,120 that you have to deal with. You have to work harder to avoid the perception of favoritism 92 00:09:29,120 - > 00:09:35,200 in those situations. You have to work harder to make sure that people understand that this is 93 00:09:35,200 - > 00:09:40,639 not a decision, this is a decision based on merit or this is a decision that's based on something 94 00:09:40,639 - > 00:09:46,000 that's rooted in more than just well, my buddy needed a job, so I'm going to give them a job. 95 00:09:46,000 - > 00:09:48,360 [COBY]: Right, absolutely. Which is, which is cronyism. 96 00:09:48,360 - > 00:09:50,080 [JAMES: Which is cronyism. Yeah. 97 00:09:50,080 - > 00:09:57,039 Right. So. Because the thing is, is that like, so the things that like you 98 00:09:57,039 - > 00:10:02,480 say that the nepotism is inherently bad and it's not inherently good and that it's neutral. Well, 99 00:10:02,480 - > 00:10:07,120 it's, it is neutral, but it's got a really bad reputation. I mean. 100 00:10:07,120 - > 00:10:09,000 Yeah, it's got a terrible perception. 101 00:10:09,000 - > 00:10:14,799 Yeah. Because, because things are like, I think we've all. Again, if you see an org chart, 102 00:10:14,799 - > 00:10:19,279 like we've, we've seen org charts cold and you know, not really knowing much about the 103 00:10:19,279 - > 00:10:24,320 company. We see the org chart and we see the last name of the CEO and then we see that last 104 00:10:24,320 - > 00:10:29,120 name a few different times at different levels of the hierarchy in the executive or the middle 105 00:10:29,120 - > 00:10:36,559 management. And again, that is a red flag for us. You know, without any context, we have 106 00:10:36,559 - > 00:10:37,600 [: something to be investigated. 107 00:10:37,600 - > 00:10:41,919 It is, it's, it's just something that you're like, well, that doesn't seem right. As 108 00:10:41,919 - > 00:10:46,240 you said, that doesn't necessarily pass the sniff test. And it's just one of those things where, 109 00:10:46,240 - > 00:10:53,679 because, because the, it's more, it more prominently goes wrong than, than it goes right. 110 00:10:53,679 - > 00:10:59,279 And I think that that's, that's the reason why it has a bad reputation. But I mean it's also when we 111 00:10:59,279 - > 00:11:05,600 work with organizations that have, you know, like have spouses that work together, have siblings 112 00:11:05,600 - > 00:11:11,519 that work together. And again, and if we, if, if the, if the value for why these people are in that 113 00:11:11,519 - > 00:11:20,240 role and, and, and this connection, this is a good combo if that needs to be fought for harder than 114 00:11:20,240 - > 00:11:25,919 if that relationship didn't exist. You need to do more work upfront, more transparency, more systems 115 00:11:25,919 - > 00:11:30,399 in place. And the same thing goes with, actually I had intended that's going down this road, 116 00:11:30,399 - > 00:11:36,159 but we might as well. When there's relationships that develop after people have been hired in 117 00:11:36,159 - > 00:11:43,120 a company like again, we work with a client where the CEO and one of the executive leaders, 118 00:11:43,120 - > 00:11:48,480 met ah, in the job and end up getting married during that time time. And that when there's, 119 00:11:48,480 - > 00:11:52,000 when there's those personal and romantic relationships that changes the dynamics too. 120 00:11:52,000 - > 00:11:56,559 Again, those are the things that they inherently create that. Because then conflict of interest 121 00:11:56,559 - > 00:12:03,840 and favoritism are become like a red flag for everybody because of the potential. And if the 122 00:12:03,840 - > 00:12:07,759 people involved in or addition does not have a mechanism, does not handle that properly, 123 00:12:07,759 - > 00:12:14,679 it's not transparent about that, then people's assumptions will become the law of the land. 124 00:12:14,679 - > 00:12:20,799 Yeah, I think one of the. It's going to be, we're, we're focused on leadership tips. 125 00:12:20,799 - > 00:12:28,799 And so what can you as a leader do? I think fundamentally it's going to be really hard 126 00:12:28,799 - > 00:12:36,559 to avoid the perception of nepotism or conflict of interest at all times. there is going to be, 127 00:12:36,559 - > 00:12:40,720 at some point in your leadership journey, you're probably going to be accused of conflict, 128 00:12:40,720 - > 00:12:45,840 of being in a conflict of interest, or you're going to be, or, or somebody's going, 129 00:12:45,840 - > 00:12:52,799 depending on your role, you may be accused of nepotism or any of the other, or favoritism. 130 00:12:52,799 - > 00:13:06,559 The biggest thing that you can do is build trust. Because oftentimes these situations that develop, 131 00:13:06,559 - > 00:13:13,360 when people are most likely to assume the worst is when they don't know 132 00:13:13,360 - > 00:13:19,240 our, our motivations or they don't trust our motivations. 133 00:13:19,240 - > 00:13:21,879 [COBY]: Right. So 134 00:13:21,879 - > 00:13:28,159 if you are in a situation where you might be combating some of these pieces, you have, 135 00:13:28,159 - > 00:13:36,480 you do have an uphill battle because what you're really needing to address is perception and trust, 136 00:13:36,480 - > 00:13:44,000 which are intangible. it's harder to nail down and it requires more personal effort 137 00:13:44,000 - > 00:13:50,000 on your behalf to actually communicate and build that trust in people and with 138 00:13:50,000 - > 00:13:56,159 people so that your motivations, even if your motivations are still questioned, 139 00:13:57,279 - > 00:14:05,639 at least you can start to bridge that gap of how. Of addressing some of the fallout from it. 140 00:14:05,639 - > 00:14:09,519 [COBY]: Right? Well, I think that there is tangible things, 141 00:14:09,519 - > 00:14:14,639 like there are tangible things that you can do as a leader and as an organization to help 142 00:14:14,639 - > 00:14:18,720 mitigate some of this risk and help build the trust. Some of that is in the systems 143 00:14:18,720 - > 00:14:25,519 like when we've gone to companies and seen that org chart with all those different or those same 144 00:14:25,519 - > 00:14:30,240 names everywhere. One of the first things we asked is, do you have nepotism policies? 145 00:14:30,240 - > 00:14:31,120 [JAMES]: Yes. 146 00:14:31,120 - > 00:14:35,759 Right. And most time they don't. So part of it is, is, okay, well that needs to 147 00:14:35,759 - > 00:14:42,720 be a place to start. You need to be allowing staff to have trust in a system that you build 148 00:14:42,720 - > 00:14:48,320 into your structure, into your SOPs, into your policies that, that puts something that puts some 149 00:14:48,320 - > 00:14:54,320 kind of like checks and balances in place to make sure that the bad stuff gets caught and the good 150 00:14:54,320 - > 00:15:02,799 stuff is, is, is trusted. And so in a conflict of interest is the same way if there's maybe 151 00:15:02,799 - > 00:15:08,240 not again, relational pieces, but there's, but there, but There are pieces that put people in, 152 00:15:08,240 - > 00:15:13,519 into conflict or, sorry, in conflict of interest that they could like profit or that or that there 153 00:15:13,519 - > 00:15:19,120 is family or the kind of stuff like that, then those should be built into it too. Like every, 154 00:15:19,120 - > 00:15:26,559 like going back to nonprofits, every board and every, organization should have robust conflict 155 00:15:26,559 - > 00:15:34,480 of interest policies, procedures, processes to, to alleviate these realities and to mitigate these, 156 00:15:34,480 - > 00:15:40,000 situations as best they can. That is something that you can do right now, which is, okay, we need 157 00:15:40,000 - > 00:15:45,840 to have a strong conflict of interest protocols and really strong nepotism protocols to just 158 00:15:45,840 - > 00:15:52,639 allow to, to acknowledge it and to build trust around it. Favoritism a little bit tougher because 159 00:15:52,639 - > 00:15:58,480 favoritism is a bit more subjective. Like, I mean, like, like I know in my, the work that that I've 160 00:15:58,480 - > 00:16:04,879 had over my career, I've had a hard time to make sure you're just balancing or battling the optics 161 00:16:04,879 - > 00:16:10,320 of favoritism. because, I mean, like, you know, it's one of those things where when we go into 162 00:16:10,320 - > 00:16:17,360 organizations, sometimes we, we will. Part of what we do is we like to mentor, some of the middle 163 00:16:17,360 - > 00:16:21,840 managers and some of the other managers usually around ops and HR and stuff like that too, to 164 00:16:21,840 - > 00:16:27,440 kind of make sure that they have the strength in their roles to kind of make them better for that. 165 00:16:27,440 - > 00:16:31,759 When we leave, there's people that have gotten a really good leadership. Leadership development 166 00:16:31,759 - > 00:16:36,399 that often looks like we spend more time with people. We are usually a little bit more careful 167 00:16:36,399 - > 00:16:41,679 in how we can navigate things with them, which is part of a very like, you know, like, 168 00:16:42,240 - > 00:16:48,159 intentional, leadership development and mentoring process. But the optics of that could look like, 169 00:16:48,159 - > 00:16:51,519 well, they're spending more time with them, they're working things through with them. They're. 170 00:16:51,519 - > 00:16:57,279 They're ignoring their mistakes, and giving them all of these free passes and. 171 00:16:57,279 - > 00:16:58,639 Right. Yeah. So. And that can. 172 00:16:58,639 - > 00:17:03,919 When really what it. In reality. And then. But again. The perception is 173 00:17:03,919 - > 00:17:07,880 really important because the reality is. Well, actually it's m. It's mentorship. 174 00:17:07,880 - > 00:17:08,640 [COBY]: Yeah. 175 00:17:08,640 - > 00:17:12,160 [: It's coaching because either this person has been identified by the 176 00:17:12,160 - > 00:17:17,799 organization or they have specifically asked for additional, help and resources. 177 00:17:17,799 - > 00:17:23,440 Yeah, exactly. So. But, but I mean. But if you look at it, we talked about this in the, 178 00:17:23,440 - > 00:17:30,799 I think it was in the equity and equality episode that we. That we did earlier this season about the 179 00:17:30,799 - > 00:17:36,000 idea of, you know, is that you have to give people what they need, not necessarily give everyone the 180 00:17:36,000 - > 00:17:39,920 same because the same is very easy. Well, they spend more time with that person than than they 181 00:17:39,920 - > 00:17:43,759 do with me. Therefore it's not the same. Therefore there's conflict, therefore there's favoritization 182 00:17:43,759 - > 00:17:48,559 is usually, is usually how it's processed. So part of it is. So the only way you can really navigate 183 00:17:48,559 - > 00:17:53,279 that. The best way that we have again we don't do it right all the time but our intention is always 184 00:17:53,279 - > 00:18:01,359 try to be upfront about it is recognizing that you have to be able to defend that in a very tangible, 185 00:18:01,359 - > 00:18:08,960 clear kind of like ah, I guess tangible and clear is probably the best way to say it way when you're 186 00:18:08,960 - > 00:18:14,720 talking about why you're doing this and because again the perception is something that you're, 187 00:18:14,720 - > 00:18:18,640 that you're going to be battling the optics of these things don't always look great. 188 00:18:18,640 - > 00:18:23,119 So they're, you need to be constantly aware of that and trying to navigate that and respond 189 00:18:23,119 - > 00:18:29,519 to that. Because you're right, the appearance of these things is where the damage gets done. 190 00:18:29,519 - > 00:18:35,119 Yeah, I ah, mean you're not avoid it when, whenever possible. It's not always 191 00:18:35,119 - > 00:18:42,240 possible to avoid the perception of conflict. And within, especially within you know, 192 00:18:42,240 - > 00:18:48,319 small and medium sized family businesses, it's very difficult to avoid nepotism because it's 193 00:18:48,319 - > 00:18:54,559 kind of part of the point of building a successful family business. What you need to do is be clear 194 00:18:54,559 - > 00:19:00,799 about it, you need to be honest about it, you need to acknowledge it and you need to, 195 00:19:00,799 - > 00:19:06,680 you need to manage the perception. And managing the perception requires trust. 196 00:19:06,680 - > 00:19:14,960 Yeah, yeah. Because I mean the idea is is that is that being fair or doing things right 197 00:19:14,960 - > 00:19:21,599 behind closed doors that that it isn't as. Isn't enough. You have to be like it has to be legibly 198 00:19:21,599 - > 00:19:27,279 or has to be publicly defense defensible in its fairness. So you have to be able to almost like 199 00:19:27,279 - > 00:19:33,440 be very transparent, very overt with the fairness. And I suppose kind of one of the things that we 200 00:19:33,440 - > 00:19:37,359 didn't actually answer that I wanted to touch on was to respond to the question that we had 201 00:19:37,359 - > 00:19:42,559 in our YouTube comments was what happens? One of the other questions was what happens when the 202 00:19:42,559 - > 00:19:48,880 person that was hired through nepotism isn't very good at their job. And that's something 203 00:19:48,880 - > 00:19:55,759 that unfortunately you need to have the systems in place to have the checks and balances like which 204 00:19:55,759 - > 00:20:00,240 is why conflict of interest and nepotism policies are in place. That way if there's someone who's 205 00:20:00,240 - > 00:20:04,559 supervising a member of your family or whatever like that there needs to be those protocols in 206 00:20:04,559 - > 00:20:09,039 place to say that that person doesn't become who Handles those pieces, someone above them, 207 00:20:09,039 - > 00:20:13,920 whether it's a board person, if it's executive or things like that, that has to be built into it. 208 00:20:13,920 - > 00:20:18,640 And, and that's why having a strong board that actually understands the role of 209 00:20:18,640 - > 00:20:25,839 governance, in nonprofits is essential because the person who needs to hold the 210 00:20:25,839 - > 00:20:29,480 CEO, to account for that bad hire is the board. 211 00:20:29,480 - > 00:20:30,119 [COBY]: Yeah. 212 00:20:30,119 - > 00:20:35,599 So again, oftentimes there will be a conflict resolution or an escalation policy, 213 00:20:35,599 - > 00:20:42,000 and that is a way of addressing it. make sure that there's also some sort of whistleblower 214 00:20:42,000 - > 00:20:49,119 or you know, retaliation policy or anti. Retaliation. It likely is not going to be 215 00:20:49,119 - > 00:20:53,480 framed as specifically as psychological safety, although that is what we are talking about. 216 00:20:53,480 - > 00:20:59,519 Yeah. So I guess to summarize the, the answer to. Or this or what the tip is, is that if 217 00:20:59,519 - > 00:21:04,319 you're, is that if you're navigating the dangers of nepotism, favoritism and conflict of interest, 218 00:21:04,319 - > 00:21:08,400 the most, the, the most important things you need to have in place around conflict of interest and 219 00:21:08,400 - > 00:21:14,559 nepotism are these policies. Are these things that, these structures that allow you to navigate 220 00:21:14,559 - > 00:21:19,440 the reality that you may need to hire a family or you need, or you may be in conflict of interest 221 00:21:19,440 - > 00:21:24,720 at certain points in times. And, and how do you navigate that? Transparently, fairly and in a way 222 00:21:24,720 - > 00:21:31,200 that's publicly defensible. And when it comes to favoritism, largely it's a matter of again, 223 00:21:31,200 - > 00:21:34,799 if it is something that you are legitimately doing wrong, if it is favoritism or m. If it 224 00:21:34,799 - > 00:21:39,599 is cronyism, this, that you're necessarily doing wrong, you need to have a bit of a self awareness 225 00:21:39,599 - > 00:21:45,519 that, okay, am I actually just perpetuating important gasoline on this fire of assumption? 226 00:21:45,519 - > 00:21:51,599 And if, if you're not doing something wrong, then you need to be able to be overtly and defendable 227 00:21:51,599 - > 00:21:56,880 of how and why and what systems and structures are in place to allow you to not just be fair, 228 00:21:56,880 - > 00:22:02,079 but to be able to, but to be publicly defensibly fair. And I think that that's probably the best, 229 00:22:02,079 - > 00:22:07,359 the best way that we can summarize that without doing a whole episode on this one topic again. 230 00:22:07,359 - > 00:22:08,440 [JAMES]: Yeah. 231 00:22:08,440 - > 00:22:08,759 [COBY]: Cool. 232 00:22:08,759 - > 00:22:13,039 We've already spent half the episode on this topic, so let's let's move on. 233 00:22:13,039 - > 00:22:20,400 All right, so the next one that I want to talk about was what an open door 234 00:22:20,400 - > 00:22:28,720 policy should feel like for staff. Because this is something that, so you and I, in part of our work, 235 00:22:28,720 - > 00:22:38,319 we often engage in executive recruitment. Yep. whether it's the, the, we, the The CEO or of 236 00:22:38,319 - > 00:22:42,400 the audition that we're working with or if it's one of the, kind of the. One of the C suite or 237 00:22:42,400 - > 00:22:47,519 whatever it is, we often are a part of that in the work that we do. And it's so funny that I think, 238 00:22:47,519 - > 00:22:53,039 I think every interview that we do, the idea of an open board open door policy comes up. A lot. 239 00:22:53,039 - > 00:22:56,759 [J: People brag about having an open door policy, which is weird to me. 240 00:22:56,759 - > 00:23:00,160 Yeah, it is. Yeah. But I mean, but you know, it's kind of one of the. Again, 241 00:23:00,160 - > 00:23:02,079 job interviews are weird on their own. Right. Especially executive. 242 00:23:02,079 - > 00:23:05,839 [JAMES]: As long as they don't actually take the door off the hinges. 243 00:23:06,960 - > 00:23:10,680 type of stupid. Anyways, moving on. 244 00:23:10,680 - > 00:23:16,799 So. But what should that actually feel like for staff? Because again, we have like on, 245 00:23:16,799 - > 00:23:21,680 more than one occasion we've seen an executive be hired after bragging about 246 00:23:21,680 - > 00:23:28,880 their open door policy. Only for their open door policy to be a literal. The door is open, 247 00:23:28,880 - > 00:23:34,400 the people can come in. But often. But the person doesn't overly make them feel welcome when they 248 00:23:34,400 - > 00:23:38,960 come in or ask them to say, great, thanks for popping by, wanting to book an appointment in 249 00:23:38,960 - > 00:23:45,759 my calendar for two weeks from now or whatever it is. And it's something that the staff are like, 250 00:23:45,759 - > 00:23:51,759 well, that's not why I'm like, that's not what I'm looking for. So the idea of what 251 00:23:51,759 - > 00:23:57,759 an open door policy is and what it should be is sometimes they're in conflict. So I think it's 252 00:23:57,759 - > 00:24:04,079 important for us to kind of talk about what the staff need. When there is an open door policy, 253 00:24:04,079 - > 00:24:13,279 it really boils down to one simple word. It's accessibility. What staff are looking for. 254 00:24:13,279 - > 00:24:22,799 What an open door policy should feel like is that you're accessible. And it's funny that you, 255 00:24:23,599 - > 00:24:33,279 brought up the, you know, the open door, but nobody comes in. Some leaders will see 256 00:24:26,480 - > 00:24:40,000 that as a big feather in their cap that they literally leave their door open and. But 257 00:24:33,279 - > 00:24:50,000 nobody's coming to them with complaints. So that means that everything must be operating 258 00:24:40,000 - > 00:24:50,000 m. Smoothly. Right? no. Silence is a data point. 259 00:24:50,000 - > 00:24:52,220 [COBY]: Right. 260 00:24:52,220 - > 00:24:58,319 Things may be operating. Things may be operating smoothly in your organization, 261 00:24:58,319 - > 00:25:03,200 even in the best of circumstances. There's stuff that's going to piss people off. There's stuff 262 00:25:03,200 - > 00:25:06,720 that people are going to be angry about. There's stuff that people are going to be frustrated with. 263 00:25:06,720 - > 00:25:10,640 There's stuff that people are going to want to talk out. There's stuff that is just going to 264 00:25:10,640 - > 00:25:15,599 come up. There's work going to be workload issues. There's going to Be an issue with a client who's 265 00:25:15,599 - > 00:25:22,960 just driving them nuts. There's going to be an issue with a co worker who breathes too loud. 266 00:25:22,960 - > 00:25:32,000 There are always going to be bubbling tensions within an organization even when it is operating 267 00:25:32,000 - > 00:25:43,680 fairly smoothly. And so don't mistake silence for everything is perfectly fine. M. Because what you 268 00:25:43,680 - > 00:25:52,960 may have created is a counterfeit psychological safety, an open door policy that does not feel 269 00:25:52,960 - > 00:26:00,559 accessible. Open door policies are often framed as they are quite literally like they're framed as a, 270 00:26:00,559 - > 00:26:06,880 way of building psychological safety. Right on. my door is open. You can come to me at any time. I 271 00:26:06,880 - > 00:26:16,720 want to hear your concerns. I care, I will listen, I will respond. Everything will be fine. M. If 272 00:26:16,720 - > 00:26:22,000 that's the statement that you are making and people are not taking you up on it. If that's 273 00:26:22,000 - > 00:26:29,119 the statement that you are making and people don't feel that you are accessible, then you have not 274 00:26:29,119 - > 00:26:34,759 created an open door policy. You have created a false or counterfeit psychological safety. 275 00:26:34,759 - > 00:26:39,759 Yeah. Where you say we have these things, but then you don't walk the walk at all. 276 00:26:39,759 - > 00:26:42,559 [JAMES]: Yeah, yeah. 277 00:26:42,559 - > 00:26:45,920 [CO: Because thing too is like, there's some leaders, new leaders, 278 00:26:46,640 - > 00:26:52,160 feel like an open door policy is something that they should do because again, it's something that 279 00:26:52,160 - > 00:26:55,559 [JAMES]: is, is, it's not a bad again in and of itself. 280 00:26:55,559 - > 00:27:00,640 It's a shorthand for being, for letting employees know that you're, that you're there to 281 00:27:00,640 - > 00:27:05,359 listen. That's really what it is. Yeah, but the thing is, is that, but again, you don't 282 00:27:05,359 - > 00:27:09,519 have to always work with your door. Open opener policies should actually not be taken literally. 283 00:27:10,559 - > 00:27:15,680 You're right. It's accessibility. It's the idea of, again, sometimes you don't, you can't 284 00:27:15,680 - > 00:27:20,480 have people popping in. Sometimes you, you know, sometimes you get distracted if the door's open 285 00:27:20,480 - > 00:27:25,920 because it's outside a busy kind of part, of the hallway, whatever like that. But, but what an open 286 00:27:25,920 - > 00:27:32,000 door policy should feel like for staff is, is that if someone pops in, you will welcome them and you, 287 00:27:32,000 - > 00:27:36,400 and you will, and you will let them know if you have time for them and if not, you will try to, 288 00:27:36,400 - > 00:27:42,400 find time or book a time to talk to them. It's that if they could reach out to you through email 289 00:27:42,400 - > 00:27:46,960 or message and you respond really quickly like, like, you know, hey, do you have a few minutes 290 00:27:46,960 - > 00:27:52,319 to chat and be like, sure, come by in like, you know, half an hour and I can give you 20 minutes. 291 00:27:52,319 - > 00:27:56,880 It's that quick reply and that in the, in that easy to do. It's it's that if they can jump on 292 00:27:56,880 - > 00:28:02,160 your calendar to just talk something through, or is often that you're out in the office, 293 00:28:02,160 - > 00:28:06,720 so you're out and around, you're, you're available, you're popping in on them, you're, 294 00:28:06,720 - > 00:28:10,799 you know, making sure that, you know you're not in your office, but you people can contact you via, 295 00:28:10,799 - > 00:28:17,200 the internal chat mechanisms or whatever it is that, you know, you intentionally are going 296 00:28:17,200 - > 00:28:21,920 somewhere and you're pop and you're just kind of being around for people to talk to. Those are the 297 00:28:21,920 - > 00:28:27,599 kinds of things that, that make you accessible or you're letting people know when you're leaving, 298 00:28:27,599 - > 00:28:32,799 that if you know that if they wanted to catch you before you go, you've got some time. Or 299 00:28:32,799 - > 00:28:38,319 it's almost like making your free time known and making your free time available to them is 300 00:28:38,319 - > 00:28:42,960 a big part of it as well. And again, it doesn't always have to be that your door has to always 301 00:28:42,960 - > 00:28:52,480 be open. It's that your ability to make time for staff is felt by the staff and that when they do 302 00:28:52,480 - > 00:28:57,839 reach out to you, that you reply quickly or that you carve out the time or you tell them, okay, 303 00:28:57,839 - > 00:29:02,559 I got five minutes. and then if this needs longer, we'll touch base later or, or whatever it is. But, 304 00:29:02,559 - > 00:29:07,519 but you're being transparent about, about that with them so that they feel like you actually 305 00:29:07,519 - > 00:29:12,880 will make them make the time for them and not just placate them and then push them aside. 306 00:29:12,880 - > 00:29:16,160 [JAM: Yeah, I, I want to follow up. You mentioned it a couple times, 307 00:29:16,160 - > 00:29:23,279 but it rings re very true for me in that an open door policy doesn't literally mean 308 00:29:23,279 - > 00:29:30,559 that your door has to be open all the time. I get, I cannot function if there's a lot of, 309 00:29:31,599 - > 00:29:35,839 conversations going on in the background. I find it really distracting. it's funny 310 00:29:35,839 - > 00:29:40,799 because I can sit in work and listen to music, but conversations distract me. 311 00:29:40,799 - > 00:29:49,519 if I, like, I need to close my door to focus on stuff I need to, like if I'm taking 312 00:29:49,519 - > 00:29:56,000 a call or on a meeting, you know my door is going to be closed. Those are not signs of a 313 00:29:56,000 - > 00:30:01,119 closed door policy. They're not the inverse of an open door policy. It really comes down to, 314 00:30:01,119 - > 00:30:09,359 like you said, the accessibility and it requires effort. And I think this is the bit that, 315 00:30:10,400 - > 00:30:20,880 leaders often fall into is it's easy to just open your door and say, come on in 316 00:30:20,880 - > 00:30:27,200 whenever you feel like it. But if you have not created an environment that welcomes people in, 317 00:30:27,200 - > 00:30:34,799 if you have not created an environment. If you're not, if people come to you and you 318 00:30:34,799 - > 00:30:46,480 are not listening, you are not hearing their concerns. if you're dismissive or if you're 319 00:30:46,480 - > 00:30:56,240 short, with people or if you are undervaluing the criticisms or the like. If you get defensive about 320 00:30:57,119 - > 00:31:02,240 information that comes to you. Yeah. Your door may be open and, 321 00:31:02,240 - > 00:31:09,039 but you're not actually accomplishing the goal of providing people with a mechanism to raise 322 00:31:09,039 - > 00:31:16,039 concerns in a way that feels safe and support it and that they are not going to be punished for. 323 00:31:16,039 - > 00:31:19,279 [COBY]: Well, I mean this is, it's, it's you're per, 324 00:31:19,279 - > 00:31:24,880 you're providing like psychological safety. Theater. You're performing. 325 00:31:24,880 - > 00:31:25,028 [JAMES]: Yeah. 326 00:31:25,028 - > 00:31:29,599 Ah, actions that are a box to check my door is open. Box checked. I'm, 327 00:31:29,599 - > 00:31:34,440 I am providing psychological safety because my door is open. I've checked that box. 328 00:31:34,440 - > 00:31:38,319 [JAMES: Everybody knows my door is open. So if they don't come, 329 00:31:38,319 - > 00:31:40,680 talk to me. That's their choice. And on them. 330 00:31:40,680 - > 00:31:44,079 Yeah. And, and then it's a matter of like you know, but, and then when they do 331 00:31:44,079 - > 00:31:48,799 come and talk to you, you are just say you're either placating them or you're saying great, 332 00:31:48,799 - > 00:31:53,519 glad we had this talk and you're kind of rushing them out the door or you're again not listening. 333 00:31:53,519 - > 00:31:59,759 If you're, if again if you're feeling like you have to provide theater. To the people and 334 00:31:59,759 - > 00:32:05,440 you're trying to provide this performative effort to almost like to make them to, 335 00:32:05,440 - > 00:32:12,880 to pacify them. That's, that is very easily felt by the staff. Staff know what is authentic, 336 00:32:12,880 - > 00:32:19,920 what is sincere and what is just performance. And the best thing you can do is be authentically 337 00:32:19,920 - > 00:32:25,119 accessible. Is it, is it, is it hard? Yes. Is it tiring? Yes. Is it, is it frustrating? 338 00:32:25,119 - > 00:32:26,279 [JAMES]: Oh, it's tiring. 339 00:32:26,279 - > 00:32:33,200 It is. But I mean it's one of those things where you can, you have to build the rapport with 340 00:32:33,200 - > 00:32:37,119 them. Then you can start having the harder conversations when the people are coming just, 341 00:32:37,119 - > 00:32:41,119 just to complain and they're. And they' time pirates and taking up your time. But if you 342 00:32:41,119 - > 00:32:45,680 build the rapport with them so you know, and then you can have a frank conversation with them that 343 00:32:45,680 - > 00:32:50,000 you don't mind them coming to talk to you. But, but this, but there has to be a boundary. Yeah. 344 00:32:50,000 - > 00:32:55,759 You can also be a good tool for building rapport. Right. If people are able to come to you 345 00:32:55,759 - > 00:33:03,839 with their problems and you listen and you are non judgmental and you are even if you're not able to 346 00:33:03,839 - > 00:33:11,759 fix it sometimes, like, sometimes people just need to vent. They need to talk about the irritating, 347 00:33:12,480 - > 00:33:19,200 client experience that they or customer experience that they just had and they don't need 348 00:33:15,119 - > 00:33:23,738 you to necessarily fix anything. They need to make sure that they get it off 349 00:33:19,200 - > 00:33:23,738 their chest and that it's okay to do so. 350 00:33:23,738 - > 00:33:23,750 [COBY]: Yeah. 351 00:33:23,750 - > 00:33:25,960 [JAMES]: And that can be a good relationship building tool. 352 00:33:25,960 - > 00:33:30,160 Yeah. And the other thing too is that sometimes like, I mean if you have a really 353 00:33:30,160 - > 00:33:37,039 tight schedule or a really like you have a, a lot of work that's constantly on your plate, 354 00:33:37,039 - > 00:33:43,599 you may want to like book like office hours that staff can do that. It's, it's again, 355 00:33:43,599 - > 00:33:49,359 it's a bit more, you know, overly structured and overly formal. But again, but if staff know that, 356 00:33:49,359 - > 00:33:53,440 that they can use that time and your door could be, be literally open or your counter 357 00:33:53,440 - > 00:33:57,519 could get filled up or you're more making your rounds. If you're scheduling that into your day, 358 00:33:57,519 - > 00:34:05,839 it becomes part of your regular practice because consistency and will, consistency and again, 359 00:34:05,839 - > 00:34:11,199 inaccessibility will be those things that people will eventually become open to trust you and 360 00:34:11,199 - > 00:34:15,559 be able to feel the authentic psychological safety rather than just the performance of it. 361 00:34:15,559 - > 00:34:20,800 And I just want to reiterate, I like the idea of going to them right 362 00:34:20,800 - > 00:34:27,599 there's. If you are in a physical office environment or a physical work environment, 363 00:34:27,599 - > 00:34:34,880 get out of your office. Get out of your office and talk to people. Get out of your office and 364 00:34:34,880 - > 00:34:40,719 walk the floor. Get out of your office and be seen. Get out of your office and engage people 365 00:34:40,719 - > 00:34:48,800 in conversation. Sitting back and saying, my door is open, so come to me. It's not good enough. 366 00:34:48,800 - > 00:34:57,119 No. 100%. Okay, let's move on to our third tip. So this one is, where do emotions 367 00:34:57,119 - > 00:35:06,000 fit into leadership? Now this, this, this is an interesting, interesting one because I mean again, 368 00:35:06,000 - > 00:35:10,079 like, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of ways that a lot of places that we can go 369 00:35:10,079 - > 00:35:16,480 with this, but I think it's important for us to just try to provide some, some advice around. As 370 00:35:16,480 - > 00:35:22,559 a leader, you are a human being. You are a complex person with your own feelings, 371 00:35:22,559 - > 00:35:29,920 your own baggage, your own opinions, your own past workplaces, trauma, your own, you know, like, 372 00:35:29,920 - > 00:35:34,679 ability to get rattled and reactive when there's crisis and stuff like that. You are a human. 373 00:35:34,679 - > 00:35:38,400 [JA: You have your own personal life that is influencing your work 374 00:35:38,400 - > 00:35:43,440 ability. You have good days and bad days and stuff is gonna happen. 375 00:35:43,440 - > 00:35:50,639 Absolutely. So as a leader that again, we often say you need to be consistent. You need 376 00:35:50,639 - > 00:35:56,719 to be, you know, like you need to provide like reliable respect with people. You need to kind of, 377 00:35:56,719 - > 00:35:59,840 kind of take your time and you need to be thought, you need to be strategic, 378 00:35:59,840 - > 00:36:04,800 you need to be tactical. And we, we, we put, you know, we put a lot of you should, you should be 379 00:36:04,800 - > 00:36:10,079 doing these things into the way we talk about leadership. So. But how can we allow you to still 380 00:36:10,079 - > 00:36:17,239 also have emotions and be a human being? I don't know. James, do you have answer for this one? 381 00:36:17,239 - > 00:36:28,559 There's a bit of irony in me being the one to talk about emotions. So I'm gonna start. 382 00:36:28,559 - > 00:36:35,440 There's a few things that I want to touch on, but where I want to start is that fundamentally 383 00:36:35,440 - > 00:36:42,239 as a leader, despite what's going on in your personal life, despite what emotions are coming 384 00:36:42,239 - > 00:36:53,920 at you from, your co workers, your staff, emotions need to be the context. They can, 385 00:36:53,920 - > 00:36:58,320 they can be the context, they need to be an input into your decision making. They 386 00:36:58,320 - > 00:37:06,239 should never be the output. That's easy to say and incredibly hard to do there and we all get 387 00:37:06,239 - > 00:37:18,800 it wrong at points, but emotional responses to emotional concerns does nobody any good. 388 00:37:18,800 - > 00:37:19,320 [COBY]: Right. 389 00:37:19,320 - > 00:37:26,079 I have it just, it's not helpful, especially if you're, and so I'm, I'm thinking 390 00:37:26,079 - > 00:37:30,559 about this currently in terms of, you know, in relation to the last conversation we had 391 00:37:30,559 - > 00:37:35,920 about open door policies. Right. How do you deal with emotions that are coming at you? How do you 392 00:37:35,920 - > 00:37:43,039 deal with your own emotions at being attacked or targeted or being inundated with somebody else's 393 00:37:43,039 - > 00:37:52,079 emotions? How do you respond in that situation in a way that is not emotional? Because your job as 394 00:37:52,079 - > 00:38:01,760 a leader is not to be accusatory or like when we respond emotionally. Sorry, I want to be clear. 395 00:38:01,760 - > 00:38:09,639 You, I don't think that you can actually respond emotionally. You can only react emotionally. 396 00:38:09,639 - > 00:38:11,440 [COBY]: Yes, yes. 397 00:38:11,440 - > 00:38:18,880 And we've, so this is a distinction we've dug into previously between reacting 398 00:38:18,880 - > 00:38:28,239 and responding. And you can only respond to something if you have a plan and if you 399 00:38:28,239 - > 00:38:38,320 are. If the output of your, of the situation is emotion, that should never be your plan. 400 00:38:38,320 - > 00:38:46,079 Right. Yes. It's almost like you're just, yeah. Your first, your, your, your, your, 401 00:38:46,079 - > 00:38:51,519 I mean there's no other way to say it but your re, your reaction. You typically react emotionally, 402 00:38:51,519 - > 00:38:57,519 but you typically respond logically. And that's really kind of a really important distinction 403 00:38:57,519 - > 00:39:06,000 that if you find yourself reacting emotionally, you're very likely shattering trust and your own 404 00:39:06,000 - > 00:39:12,480 credibility and, and your technological safety. Actually one of the things I think is an important 405 00:39:12,480 - > 00:39:16,000 thing for us to kind of say too is that we talked about this, we open our policy that you know, 406 00:39:16,000 - > 00:39:22,159 you need to build real psychological safety, but you as a leader also need to feel like you can 407 00:39:22,159 - > 00:39:30,079 have psychological safety to show vulnerability with your team. I know that when I've stepped 408 00:39:30,079 - > 00:39:34,559 into leadership roles and I've, you know, like I've had complex things happen in my, 409 00:39:34,559 - > 00:39:39,519 in my personal life and when I've had days that have been very difficult for me, 410 00:39:39,519 - > 00:39:46,159 I have built a rapport with the team that I work with to kind of let them know that I'm not at my 411 00:39:46,159 - > 00:39:52,000 best today. You're not going to get the best stuff from me. I'm likely going to defer any really 412 00:39:52,000 - > 00:39:57,280 big decisions for another day when I can come in with, with a much clearer head. But I'm here. But, 413 00:39:57,280 - > 00:40:02,400 but I'm here and I'm able to listen. You're just probably not going to get the sharpest version of 414 00:40:02,400 - > 00:40:09,199 me today. And that's something that comes with building trust, having time and everything and 415 00:40:09,199 - > 00:40:13,119 building the rapport and allowing yourself the same vulnerability that you're providing 416 00:40:13,119 - > 00:40:21,199 to other people. That is one way that you can see how your emotions are part of the input, 417 00:40:21,199 - > 00:40:25,920 but that that you have to work very hard to make sure that they're not, as you say, not the output. 418 00:40:25,920 - > 00:40:35,519 Yeah. And this is, this can be a type A tightrope for many people to walk. I've, 419 00:40:35,519 - > 00:40:41,360 I've been accused of the opposite of not responding or respecting emotions enough. 420 00:40:43,199 - > 00:40:51,039 I will admit this is an area of leadership that I still work on because I, it's not that I don't 421 00:40:51,039 - > 00:40:57,440 care about emotions and it's not even that I don't necessarily understand emotions. they just don't 422 00:40:57,440 - > 00:41:04,800 factor into your emotions. Don't factor into my decision making which really irritates people. and 423 00:41:04,800 - > 00:41:08,920 I don't always do the best job of articulating that, especially if somebody is in emotional. 424 00:41:08,920 - > 00:41:14,159 [C: Yeah, yeah. I mean the tact that takes for you to de. Escalate an 425 00:41:14,159 - > 00:41:19,360 emotional situation and basically let people feel seen and heard but make it 426 00:41:19,360 - > 00:41:25,000 very clear that their emotional stance is again, it's context. 427 00:41:25,000 - > 00:41:25,760 [JAMES]: Yeah. 428 00:41:25,760 - > 00:41:32,119 It's not a decision that your emotion and their emotion are data points. They are context. 429 00:41:32,119 - > 00:41:35,920 [JA: But I don't make decisions based on who shouts the loudest at me. 430 00:41:35,920 - > 00:41:44,320 Yeah, yeah. But it's kind of like, but the reality is it's that double edged 431 00:41:39,039 - > 00:41:47,679 sword where the least, the most ineffective thing you can do to someone that's reacting 432 00:41:44,320 - > 00:41:47,679 emotionally is to tell them to calm down. 433 00:41:47,679 - > 00:41:55,599 Okay. I, I've learned at least that much to not use that phrase. I, 434 00:41:55,599 - > 00:41:58,849 I am at least that self aware. 435 00:41:58,849 - > 00:42:05,639 But, but again it's that you know, it's, it is, it's okay, it's difficult to try and de 436 00:42:05,639 - > 00:42:12,719 escalate an emotional situation. And but, but it's important to know your role as a leader that it 437 00:42:12,719 - > 00:42:18,880 is your job to de escalate an emotional situation. You cannot be making emotional decisions. Emotions 438 00:42:18,880 - > 00:42:25,119 are not actions. They are. Context is a really important thing for you to always remember. And 439 00:42:25,119 - > 00:42:31,519 because, because again like it's important for you, for you to be able to again act tactically 440 00:42:31,519 - > 00:42:38,320 but allow place for your own emotions and for the emotions of others. Like knowing that a 441 00:42:38,320 - > 00:42:44,559 decision you're going to make is going to spark an emotional reaction in people is good data is good 442 00:42:44,559 - > 00:42:48,880 things for you to know for that because you need to account for that. And that's the difference 443 00:42:48,880 - > 00:42:55,199 is that when someone brings you an emotional situation it's about, it's. But handling the 444 00:42:55,199 - > 00:43:00,719 moment is a bit difficult and, but knowing that you're not dismissing any emotional responses to 445 00:43:00,719 - > 00:43:05,599 anything. It's, it's that you know, okay, whatever we do is going to cause an emotional reaction in 446 00:43:05,599 - > 00:43:10,639 people. So we need to account for that as part of our strategy to make sure that we're supporting 447 00:43:10,639 - > 00:43:14,039 those who are going to have the, have the emotional reaction. It's just the reality of it. 448 00:43:14,039 - > 00:43:19,920 And allowing people space for that emotional reaction is very important. Yeah, 449 00:43:19,920 - > 00:43:27,119 allowing them the space for the reaction and then not necessarily if it goes too 450 00:43:27,119 - > 00:43:33,280 far. Obviously there's the all. There's always professional boundaries and you know, 451 00:43:33,280 - > 00:43:38,880 policies and respectful workplaces, pieces that need to be maintained. But just because somebody 452 00:43:38,880 - > 00:43:44,320 has an emotional response or reaction to what you're saying doesn't make them the bad guy 453 00:43:44,320 - > 00:43:50,719 and they shouldn't necessarily be penalized for it. Giving them the ability to have an honest 454 00:43:50,719 - > 00:43:55,599 emotional response, if that's what's going to happen is fine. Well I mean what I've seen 455 00:43:55,599 - > 00:44:02,480 many times is that after the fact that person will come back and say, and maybe not apologize 456 00:44:02,480 - > 00:44:13,280 but provide more context and reframe their piece in a more logical or often just kind of 457 00:44:13,280 - > 00:44:16,320 [COBY]: acknowledge the energy that they brought to it. Right. 458 00:44:16,320 - > 00:44:16,880 [JAMES]: Yeah. 459 00:44:16,880 - > 00:44:24,400 Because again as humans we need to give other humans the grace to ah, to be a human. but 460 00:44:24,400 - > 00:44:32,639 that being said, that grace is a, is a small Runway for them to kind of allow for that. But 461 00:44:32,639 - > 00:44:39,920 there's boundaries around that. And again you as a leader, you can't be an Emotional robot. The 462 00:44:39,920 - > 00:44:46,480 idea of the stoic emotionless leader is something that is not going to be any good to, to anybody. 463 00:44:46,480 - > 00:44:56,559 but a leader who leads emotionally is a dangerous person. And that's how stuff breaks and that's how 464 00:44:56,559 - > 00:45:03,840 stuff goes wrong. And that's how you create very inconsistent, often toxic workplaces when a leader 465 00:45:03,840 - > 00:45:09,760 leads emotionally. So it's about finding that balance. And part of it is allowing people to have 466 00:45:09,760 - > 00:45:17,119 the grace to be human with boundaries around it. You recognizing that your own emotions and their 467 00:45:17,119 - > 00:45:25,760 emotion is context but not necessarily actions or outcomes. And that you need to be able to better 468 00:45:25,760 - > 00:45:33,679 respond to situations in a way that makes people feel heard, but also. So it creates like safety 469 00:45:33,679 - > 00:45:38,079 in them, but again, giving yourself the same psychological safety to be vulnerable, to provide 470 00:45:38,079 - > 00:45:43,519 context and to allow for, you know, the reality of the situation that you're feeling. Because again, 471 00:45:43,519 - > 00:45:49,519 like a lot of these things kind of turn into things around like emotional intelligence about 472 00:45:49,519 - > 00:45:52,400 knowing about your own emotions, emotions of others. And there's even things around 473 00:45:52,400 - > 00:45:57,360 like the psychology of like emotionality which is like a psychological trait that, 474 00:45:57,360 - > 00:46:03,599 that is about how intensely a person experiences and processes feelings and stresses and stuff 475 00:46:03,599 - > 00:46:08,719 like that too. So like there's even actually, you know what, there's a lot to that as well. 476 00:46:08,719 - > 00:46:14,880 Yeah, I mean emotional intelligence alone is a substantial topic. Right. And we've, 477 00:46:14,880 - > 00:46:22,159 we've talked around it a little bit. you need to have the self awareness to be able 478 00:46:22,159 - > 00:46:27,760 to recognize where emotions are coming from or what emotions are driving. Because there's a. 479 00:46:27,760 - > 00:46:36,880 Although frustration and anger may present very similarly or fear, especially fear and anger 480 00:46:36,880 - > 00:46:42,239 may present very similarly the, the root cause of them is very different and the, 481 00:46:42,239 - > 00:46:46,320 the way in which it needs to be accounted for is very different. 482 00:46:46,320 - > 00:46:50,880 Yeah. You know what, I think that we could actually go on a really long tangent 483 00:46:50,880 - > 00:46:57,760 talking about, talking about, about, about this, both like kind of digging into again the need to 484 00:46:57,760 - > 00:47:03,519 kind of like really kind of help understand the complexities of of emotions versus logic and 485 00:47:03,519 - > 00:47:08,000 emotion, emotional intelligence and understanding those around you and also your own emotionality 486 00:47:08,000 - > 00:47:12,239 and things like again, we can touch base on a few of the things we talked about before like in some 487 00:47:12,239 - > 00:47:19,519 of the psychology episodes around like emotional labor, emotional load and even like the kind 488 00:47:19,519 - > 00:47:24,719 of effect intensity. So you know what, Maybe we should, why don't we plan to do another episode, 489 00:47:24,719 - > 00:47:30,719 a psychology episode about, about emotions in, in, in, in our work and, and in leadership and 490 00:47:30,719 - > 00:47:35,280 how we interact with others. and save that, save that for them because that's probably gonna, 491 00:47:35,280 - > 00:47:39,920 that could be. There's a lot we can dig into that. So. Yeah, I'm just thinking that we're 492 00:47:39,920 - > 00:47:43,719 pretty much at our time now, so I don't want to open up a whole can of worms and. 493 00:47:43,719 - > 00:47:48,400 Yeah, well, I mean, yes, there's, there certainly is more that we can say on the matter. 494 00:47:48,400 - > 00:47:54,960 There are a lot of concepts that we've only briefly touched on. But that doesn't negate the, 495 00:47:54,960 - > 00:48:00,960 the conversation that we've had so far either. And I just want to reiterate a couple points that I 496 00:48:00,960 - > 00:48:10,880 think are really important when it comes to where emotions fit within leadership. If there's one 497 00:48:10,880 - > 00:48:17,119 thing that I would really encourage you to keep, front of mind is that emotions can be an input. 498 00:48:17,119 - > 00:48:23,280 They are context for your decision making. They should not be the output. Your decision 499 00:48:23,280 - > 00:48:27,519 should not be based on emotions and should not be an emotional decision. 500 00:48:28,320 - > 00:48:33,199 it comes down to reliable respect. Right. If we're talking about our integrity leadership, 501 00:48:33,199 - > 00:48:37,519 framework, which is another piece that we could tie into a larger conversation. But 502 00:48:37,519 - > 00:48:43,199 people need to be able to sometimes express their frustrations in the workplace in a 503 00:48:43,199 - > 00:48:51,519 way that is safe and still respectful and professional. Yeah. But when you respond, 504 00:48:51,519 - > 00:48:59,599 if you react emotionally to emotion coming at you, it's just pouring fuel on the fire. 505 00:48:59,599 - > 00:49:03,280 [COB: Yeah. And that's just it. Like, I mean, it's not realistic 506 00:49:03,280 - > 00:49:07,360 to say that there can't be any emotion in work because again, you have to let humans, 507 00:49:07,360 - > 00:49:14,079 you know, be human. But your workplace can't run by emotions. It has to do. 508 00:49:14,079 - > 00:49:17,079 [JAMES]: It's just, it's, it's pure chaos incarnate. 509 00:49:17,079 - > 00:49:23,840 Yeah. Because I mean, I think again, to kind of somewhat summarize the whole conversation, 510 00:49:23,840 - > 00:49:29,599 the, the common like thread through all three leadership tips really is psychological safety. 511 00:49:29,599 - > 00:49:36,320 Because if you're not respecting emotions properly and allowing them the grace, but also not, 512 00:49:36,320 - > 00:49:40,400 but also not make sure, ensuring. But if you're, if you're re responding emotionally, if you're, 513 00:49:40,400 - > 00:49:46,239 if you're being run by your emotions, you are destroying psychological safety. Yeah. In, 514 00:49:46,239 - > 00:49:51,920 you know, in your leadership. Because, because again, no one can feel safe when 515 00:49:51,920 - > 00:49:56,960 they feel that any, that their leaders are going to attack them when they have, when, 516 00:49:56,960 - > 00:50:02,559 when they get emotional about anything. Right. It's, it just shatters the trust and then, 517 00:50:02,559 - > 00:50:07,679 but then saying as a leader, you can come to my open door policy and then I'm gonna lose my mind 518 00:50:07,679 - > 00:50:13,199 on you when you bring me bad news is part of that counterfeiting psychological safety stuff that, 519 00:50:13,199 - > 00:50:17,679 that has to exist too. You have to provide in Open door policies, that safe place for people 520 00:50:17,679 - > 00:50:24,159 to speak, the grace but also the consistency that they can actually allow you to be accessible and 521 00:50:24,159 - > 00:50:29,199 feel heard, but also know that they're going to be treated with respect when they walk in the 522 00:50:29,199 - > 00:50:34,400 door. And sometimes that's like a lot of safety has to exist to identify things like conflict 523 00:50:34,400 - > 00:50:39,920 of interest, favoritism, you know, those pieces like that too. Like how organizations can help 524 00:50:39,920 - > 00:50:46,400 negate the dangers that come with nepotism and favoritism and conflict of interest is by allowing 525 00:50:46,400 - > 00:50:51,599 psychological safety to exist and let people kind of say this doesn't seem right. We need to make 526 00:50:51,599 - > 00:50:58,159 sure that people understand the why behind this and that and that it is all above board and be 527 00:50:58,159 - > 00:51:03,840 able to bring those pieces forward. But I mean if you're hiring your wife to handle the books 528 00:51:03,840 - > 00:51:09,440 and she's got no bookkeeping experience and you know, then that is bad and people need to be able 529 00:51:09,440 - > 00:51:13,679 to call that out because that's not right. And especially when you're talking about a non profit, 530 00:51:13,679 - > 00:51:18,800 that could be the death of the organization. Right. So again, I think psychological safety 531 00:51:18,800 - > 00:51:22,880 is probably the thread that would connect all three of these tips. And I think that it's 532 00:51:22,880 - > 00:51:27,760 important for us to just as leaders to make sure that we understand how robust creating a 533 00:51:27,760 - > 00:51:32,079 psychological safe workplace is and the spin off from that are reflective in this conversation. 534 00:51:32,079 - > 00:51:34,239 Yeah, I think that's a good summary. 535 00:51:34,239 - > 00:51:40,159 Okay, so that about does it for us. For a full archive of the podcast and access 536 00:51:40,159 - > 00:51:47,119 the video version hosted on our YouTube channel, visit Roman3.ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us. 537 00:51:47,119 - > 00:51:52,960 For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit us at Roman.3ca. 538 00:51:52,960 - > 00:51:57,280 Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention, high productivity, 539 00:51:57,280 - > 00:52:00,639 increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance, 540 00:52:00,639 - > 00:52:05,920 dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast…