Power in the Boardroom: Aligning Your Nonprofit Board for Increased Trust and Impact

Speaker A: Normally when that question is asked in most environments, I find people will say, we're all adults, we'll be fine. So usually like to skip over even talking about what you want to do when you're in conflict. So the conflict hasn't even come up.

Speaker B: We're just, we're just already avoiding it.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're already actively. Oh no, we'll be fine. There won't be any.

Speaker B: This is Leaderful, where we give you the models and the frameworks, the strategies and the skills that you need to drive true transformation for yourself, your team, your organization and the world. Welcome to the show. Okay, welcome back to another episode of the Leaderful podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Coulard and today we invite Nick Etheridge, Calder and Laura Istead. Nick has been on the podcast before and Laura is a new guest. And today we dig into board alignment, specifically looking at the social impact space and the function of boards and their relationships with each other and also with the executive leadership team, often an executive director. But uh, before we we dig into today's conversation, I wanted to let you know about a couple of things that you might find interesting. Uh, the first is a board alignment workshop that we're going to be running in May and June. It's a two session workshop. Two two hour evening sessions, virtual, so you can be from wherever in probably North America. And we're going to be digging into how to make your board experience more effective, more impactful and more enjoyable. As a board member. As a board chair. Uh, but if you are sitting on a board and you're wondering how can I optimize this experience, how can I maximize my contribution to the organ that I'm here to support, then this workshop is definitely for you. I uh, also want to invite you to check out the co, which is our membership community for impact conscious leaders. And so if you're a leader in the nonprofit or social impact space, you can join like valued like minded peers and facilitators like Nick and myself and Laura as we dig into the challenges and opportunities within leadership in a really hands on peer oriented leadership development community. So invite you to check those out. Links to those are uh, in the show notes. Wherever you're getting this podcast from and without further ado, let's dig into this conversation. Conversation with Nick and Laura. All right, welcome to both Laura and Nick on the Leaderfro podcast. Really excited to have this conversation today about boards and aligning boards with their executive teams, especially in the social impact space. Uh, both of you have a great deal of experience in that work, both on the board side and the executive side. And so we're just going to jump right into it. And maybe Laura, you're going to be on the hot seat first in talking a little bit about what you notice, like what's happening. What are you seeing right now with boards and executive teams in the nonprofit space, maybe starting at a high altitude attitude and are some of the challenges and opportunities that you see and then. Well, I'm sure we'll dig into the nuances of that as we go.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I think there's, you know, it's, it's. The board has such a, such a, um, important part in all organizations. And I think it's never been more critical for organizations to be aligned with one each with one another and to be efficient because the resources aren't just there. Whether it's monetary resources or time resources or just, you know, your own kind of personal, your energy and the things that you bring, uh, to your work. There's, there's a lot going on for everybody right now. And so I think it's really important for boards to. And executive teams to consider kind of where they're at, how they're relating, how they can work better together. And I know from my own personal experience that relationship between the board and executive director, executive leadership team is so critical and it's often really challenging. It's probably one of the most challenging parts of working in nonprofit in lots of ways. And, and it's definitely, um, something that I come across a lot with the people that I connect with through social sector club will tell me how can I work with my board better, how can I support my board, um, in their, um, having, you know, a more fulfilled time, having a more purposeful time, you know, working with them on engagement. And how do we, how do we connect people to mission? How do we set up systems that help people be really engaged, um, aligned board members? And I would say it's long been a challenging spot in the nonprofit sector, um, in order for things to go through, there's a lot going on there. And so I think it's really important that right now we dial into this work, um, in a way that looks different, uh, than it has before because um, we can't afford to fail in a lot of these missions. And that's often the breakdown that, that we see as really challenging.

Speaker B: Thanks for kicking us off and maybe Nick over to you around some of the common patterns that you either hear or that you notice in your work with boards. Um, and some of the things that, you know. Yeah, maybe let's start at that kind of pattern or dynamic level. Like what are you seeing that's problematic because, you know, just to frame this conversation, it's usually not through lack of effort or commitment to the impact that we want to create, but um, there's often some level of misalignment between boards and executives or different altitudes that they're talking at, or like various things that happen that cause tension and misalignment in a system. But from where you sit and from the conversations you've been having, what do you see are some of those more common patterns to watch out for?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think a board is like any team. There are dynamics that will be at play. Different team members with different perspectives, skill sets, different expectations of what it's like to work, uh, together in a team, what their expectations are of, um, the relationship with the organization, their influence in the organization, their uh, relationship with the executive director. So I think you have a lot of those dynamics and it's different than some other teams because they're not really working together on a day by day basis. So there's a strong sense of working together. But there is some disconnection too, just naturally because of the rhythms of how frequently we might meet as a board and, and how much time we really spend on connecting with each other and um, you know, setting expectations or um, dialing in our expectations or just even discussing what they are and aligning on things that uh, might not be covered in our governance, uh, documents or governance processes. So I feel like there's a huge opportunity to increase our effectiveness and our alignment in boards if we tap into some of those areas that are often just ignored, sometimes because of the rhythms and sometimes just because of our expectations of what it looks like to be on a board. And yeah, I think we'll probably get into this a little bit later today, but there's unnamed power dynamics that are at play. There are people who are really, really, as you said Jeff, like well intentioned, committed, interested, but might have a different idea about what that looks like. Yeah, I think those, those are the things that come to mind. Oh, and I guess because we talk a lot about meetings, um, we've been talking lots about meetings, uh, lately and what makes good meetings. So I think that's another maybe pattern that can show up. And our meetings, our board meetings can sometimes feel maybe disengaging or um, there might be unequal participation. We don't hear from some voices, we hear more from other voices. Decisions get pushed forward that are mostly influenced by some people and not, uh, others. I think that's also happening at boards as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for that. I think that that point around treating the board as if it's a team because oftentimes it's, you know, this group of people that comes together to provide governance and oversight, often that's a classic role. Maybe we'll talk a little bit between government governing boards and working boards, but from a governance board perspective, they don't really often get the same kind of intentional teaming that other teams might. When we stand up an executive team or an HR function or we start to build out a team for a program, we'll spend the time to connect and talk about ways of working together and who has decision authority and the power dynamics that are at play, and we'll work together as a team. But oftentimes boards just, you know, your first board meeting, it's like, hey, here you go, like, start making big, big decisions, big decisions with lots of consequences for people served, but also the people in the organization without necessarily that, that front end work around designing that team and really understanding kind of the roles and the rhythms of that. So yeah, I think that that point is a take home for me is treated as important as any other team in the organization and put some intentional kind of effort towards it. So that gets us started. But Laura, jump in.

Speaker C: Yeah, and ideally, I mean, boards are supposed to be really diverse. That's, you know, that's the dream team is something where, you know, people, um, the people that are being served look like the people that are on the board. And you're having lots of people come from a wide variety of backgrounds, which means naturally they don't necessarily speak the same sort of group working organizational language. They might not even have a common understanding of what the organization does. And there's certainly a lot to, you know, to improve, I think about the board experience and how board members show up. But I think there's also from the organization side, how do you, how do you onboard board members, um, to be able to have this common language and how do you, you know, how do you set up, how do you set up systems or trainings like, like the one that we're, we're putting together here for, for boards to be able to have that common language? Because you don't, you do want to have a wide diversity of thought and how, and wide diversity of experience around that table. Um, but how do you make sure that they also can come to an agreement and come to a way of providing Leadership and support to the executive team, uh, of organization.

Speaker B: That's a nice segue maybe into uh, practically speaking, where do boards get stuck? Like where do you see them? You've experienced boards, I'm sure, getting stuck. But more tactically like what are some of the places that you notice more common pain points or stuckness for, for boards or within that board executive dynamic?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I would say, you know, just recognition of like who's around the table and who's similar to what Nick said. Like the voices that are going to be heard, there's naturally going to be strong, you know, louder voices than others. But how do you sort of support the more, the low, you know, the more timid voices maybe around the table, um, is certainly a piece of it. So some of, some of. Sometimes boards can get hijacked by those people that happen to be the loudest or have the most strong opinion about something. I think it's really important for boards, especially from an executive director position. Um, and that was certainly, you know, my experience for many years was having the board be one voice. They are, they're a unified direction for the executive director. And, and that's, there's, that's supposed to be how, how you know, it's the easiest way to get um, to, to understand what you're supposed to do as an executive director is to have one voice that's telling you this. Uh, you know, kind of what, uh, what. Where you're supposed to be walking forward. And, and I think it's important to, to agree there. So there's, there's some around that there's, there's definitely kind of a over functioning and under functioning piece. Um, there's certain board members, you know, that'll for lots of reasons. And I think everybody who joins a board really wants to serve the community. I true, I truly believe that and I think sometimes um, there's, there's misalignment maybe with you know, sort of your understanding of what you've gotten yourself into related to board experience because maybe the current board or the, or the executive team hasn't really laid out for you what the expectations are. So there's, there's some of that, that kind of leads to either over functioning because you're trying to help, help the operational parts too much or under functioning because you sort of, you don't really know where your place is. And I think that that can kind of create um, some dynamics that are tricky to make sure that that diversity of thought gets brought up to make sure that everybody's on the team of the organization. I think there's, you know, sort of the trick of, you know, sort of that lack of shared expectation, uh, is a piece of that too. Um, I don't think. I know in the history. My history with my organization that I ran for a long time at Two Wheel View, um, we, you know, we didn't always have a great board experience where we, um, outlined expectations of everybody and who's playing, who's playing what and who's playing what in the symphony of the. Of the organization. And so that we. We need to make sure we only have a certain amount of tuba players and a certain amount of people who are playing, you know, flute and drums and things, because otherwise it's just. It doesn't. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't. It uh, doesn't sound as nice. And so we want to make sure there's. That. I think certainly, you know, like the chairing of the meeting and how meetings roll out is. Can be a pinch point. I think. Um, you know, we really worked hard on trying to make our meetings productive, but also something that people wanted to attend. Um, because there was certainly in my history, I have one good example of a board member that would sit down at the meeting and say, how quickly can we get out of here? And nothing says commitment to the. Like how quickly can we end the meeting? And so I think that that speaks to having, you know, like figuring out how to make those meetings as impactful and as purposeful. And also you can have fun at a board meeting. It is possible. Um, so those kinds of things. I think it's, you know, just having. Having good board leadership, uh, is. Is key as well. And having everybody understand what their role in the organization is, whether it's governance or operational, that clarity is super key. And that's often a real struggle point, uh, between lots of that I talk to in the social sector club and otherwise, um, that they. My. My board doesn't understand what I do. They don't understand my expertise and that I've actually been doing this for many, many years. Um, and that's often where there's. There's a lot of struggle too, is that there's sometimes the perception that people who work in nonprofit, um, have sort of been thrust there because they couldn't. They couldn't succeed in other sectors. And certainly that is not the case. The, uh, the nonprofit sector is highly educated, highly experienced experience and does a lot of extraordinary things every single day that, uh, a lot of other sectors don't have to navigate. So there's, that's, you know, that's kind of the nutshell. There's, there's a lot of things going on for, uh, for executive directors in the nonprofit sector in relation to boards, for sure.

Speaker B: Before we jump back in, a quick pause to share something we're building that might matter to you. At the Ally co, we work with leadership teams who are navigating complexity, growth and change, and want to lead in ways that are more human, more effective and more sustainable. Our foundational workshops focus on the real work of leadership, how we communicate, how we handle tension, how we build trust, and how we create cultures where people can do their best work, especially under pressure. And if you're a leader who wants to keep learning, practicing and growing alongside other thoughtful leaders, I also invite you to check out the co, a membership community for impact conscious leaders who want to deepen their craft, not just consume more content. You can learn more about both of these things@www.thealleyco.world. all right, let's get back to this conversation.

Speaker A: I was thinking about the piece where we get perspectives from lots of different people and sometimes I think, um, boards might not be stacked in that way, uh, and built in a way that really represents lots of different perspectives. So that's definitely a common thing that I've seen. And then even if it is, if we draw people in that might have a really useful perspective for the governance of the organization, we're not necessarily doing a great job of bridging that and helping people to understand what it would look like to participate at the meetings and to contribute and to speak to that. So sometimes I think people like sit back or withdraw or aren't really sure how to be involved, so they might look less engaged or be less engaged. Uh, and then Laura, when you were talking about the over functioning, where you were talking about maybe some executives not seeing that their expertise is valued, um, it reminded me of a conversation I had with uh, a senior leader at an organization about boards and the what is it not for profit splaining I think is the terminology that we came up with. Or I think there's another, um, another term out there. There's some articles on, on the Internet that I came across about this phenomenon of being kind of explained the way things work in for profit and on usually trying to translate that to the nonprofit environment when sometimes things don't just translate or don't work in the same way. A person might not be, maybe folks that are on boards right now might not be that person. Or oriented that way. Um, maybe we do it unknowingly because that's the world we come from. I think that can happen really unconsciously or unknowingly. Or maybe you see it happening with other board members. And I think that this is where the team piece comes in. There's an opportunity for us to also as board members kind of name things as they're happening. Regardless of our role on the board, whether we're the chair or not, this shouldn't matter. We should be able to, to name some of the dynamics that we see. I think that's very helpful to executive directors and CEOs in their work with the board for it to not always default to kind of a chair role to navigate these um, tenuous uh, conversations or um, border crossings that might come up um, in the, or boundary crossings that might come up in the um, in the process. So yeah, that's what comes up for me.

Speaker B: Great points both. And actually I was just chatting with someone the other day, an executive director, and they're complaining at some level. Not really complaining, but just sharing about their, this board, this new board member who had come along into the organization and didn't necessarily know what their altitude was and was definitely probably an example of that over functioning. But they're over functioning and diving into the weeds and getting a little bit aggressive with their questioning about kind of day to day operational stuff was really impacting this executive director. And they're starting to question their own, own effectiveness and their own like um, their willingness. And they found themselves withdrawing from that board member's questions and kind of avoiding. And so we get into this dynamic where the more she was doing that, the more it was drawing this board member into. Well now this executive director is being evasive and is hiding something and isn't telling me. And so they get more aggressive with their questioning. And we're having this conversation about seeing that dynamic playing itself out. And then the reality is like, well, where's the board chair or other board members to your point, Nick, in this dynamic? Because that shouldn't be on the person in the down power position, which sometimes we don't see executive directors in necessarily a down power position, but they certainly are when they report into a board. Where's the support, where's the board kind of norms and kind of some of the relational things. This kind of leads us maybe into our next area of conversation which is around building trust and relationship connection and addressing some of these either artificial harmony or tension, like unproductive, um, tension that might evolve on Teams. I think that there's a, there's a unique thing that happens with boards around that just given the nature of them, they're, you know, volunteers, like you said, often from corporate or other spaces, all of a sudden in charge of someone who is probably closer, like, is closest to the work and probably an expert in that work itself and has been doing it for a career. So it's a long segue into a conversation about how do you build trust. Um, and Laura, maybe we'll kick it back over to you. Having been on the executive director side of that, having various levels of function with your board at Two Wheel View over the years would, to get your take on how do you build connection and trust, um, in that environment.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's um, it takes time. I mean that's the biggest thing is that you can't just all of a sudden, you know, be in a trustful relationship with other people, uh, in that way. And especially when you've been, you've been doing it a long time. So I worked at Two Wheel View for 15 years and I was executive director for eight and a half. And so, you know, these are the kinds of things like I lived and breathed that every single day for all of those years. And I think for me, one of the key pieces and the board members where I felt the most aligned with and certainly the board that I left at 2 will view, you know, an incredible board. We've had also other incredible board members that are no longer on the board over the years, but we also. I went through it as well, um, very similar to the, to the example that you, that you shared. Uh, I had one of those experiences myself and, and I think it is really about being curious and the more that boards can, you know, board members or potential board members. And I think it starts even before you're brought on the board. I think it is really about being curious about the mission of the organization. Coming in to learn and coming in as, as a learner to um, understand the motivations of the people that work there, understand the motivations. And what is your connection, um, to, to the board? And, and why do you, why are you choosing board service, I think is also another, another thing to be curious about. Um, because certainly in some industries being on a board helps you level, uh, up in your career, whether that's, make partner, different things like that. And so there's, there's sort of power dynamics in there. And so I think there's sometimes an eagerness by certain professions to be like, be connected to boards because of what? Um, the professional outcome that can happen. But I think you should also look at it through a lens of what kind of personal outcome do you want to get from having contributed to a board? Because I think at the end of your board, I used to tell my board members, after we went through a transformation of the way that the board operated, I said, I really want you when you're done your term here. Um, and by the way, term limits are super important on boards. Organizations don't have term limits. Must get term limits. Like that. That kind of stuff is not. Is not cool. Um, and I could do an entire podcast about term limits on boards. But I think, um, having, you know, like having organizations sort of. Yeah. Understand where you're. Where you're coming from and, and understanding why. Why you're around the table and, um, connecting with the people and making sure that it aligns with who you are as a person and the missions you want to support. That certainly helps. Um, and that, you know, you're giving of your time and it should be someplace that you fit too. And I used to tell my board, Board members that, you know, when their term is done, I want them to be glad that they did it and that they were. That they're kind of a little sad that it's over. Um, because I think it's important that, you know, they get as much out of the experience as they're hopefully contributing to the organization and that it does become this. This relationship and this support and this connection that extends beyond the relationship, um, that, you know, the. The board and Ed or the board relationship. And I'm really fortunate to have a number of board members that I'm still very much connected to. And a number of them, of our past board members came to my. My party, my. My goodbye party at 2 will view and. And just, um, really proud to have them as members of my community. And. But that takes time, that takes. That takes trust, that takes honesty. That takes having honest conversations about how things really are. And I think sometimes as executive directors in particular, we're really afraid of kind of showing what's under. Like, what is the scum under the rocks. Because we're afraid of being judged. We're afraid of being thought of as a bad leader. We're being. When these are completely normal things that happen in organizations that we don't have a lot of control over necessarily, or we just have a laundry list of things we're trying to do but being, you know, trying to build a relationship where you can be honest about the stuff that's really hard and this. But also making sure that you're honest like in sharing the stuff. That's really awesome too because the board members deserve that feedback. Feedback loop. And I think as non profit folks we don't often think that you know, we, we have such a responsibility in our sector. Whether you know you're in, you're a board member, whether you're a passport member, whether you're a non profit, like work in non profit or, or you're in you know, the leadership coaching, uh, space to support, to help organizations get good board members. And that means you know we, we're hoping, hopefully creating an experience and I hope that we did that at two wheel view that actually set people up for future board experiences. And so they were like, oh board, board service is something I actually like to do. I've learned a lot, I can contribute meaningfully. I've learned some things about a different sector I was unfamiliar with and now I can take that to another organization and support their work rather than oh my gosh, this was like the most challenging experience I've ever had. It was like a university project. Every time we got together, nobody, you know, it was not a good time and it was fraught with, you know, stress and arguing and, and I, I, I'm just, I'm actually never want to be a board member again. And I think we, we have a real responsibility to address some of these challenges and, and to set up some of these systems so that like, so that board, good board members and people who want to contribute in this way can go on to other organizations and spread, spread the goodness everywhere.

Speaker B: Nick we're just going to keep going in this kind of circular pattern and so you follow Laura with uh, thoughts, additions.

Speaker A: One way that we can build trust and uh, deepen our relationships as board members is to actually check in one by one is to hear from every person or to do rounds when we're making decisions so that we can hear from every voice. I agree with Laura that it takes time to build relationship and there's definitely a hidden challenge with boards because we typically belong to probably multiple different organizational cultures and we come together for a very short period of time, monthly or once every two months depending on your structure, maybe more frequently, but it's not as frequent as your workplace culture. So we have people that are kind of steeped in other ways of, of being together and then it is a challenge to develop. Okay, what is our board culture look like if we step into this new space together? But I think there are Habits or patterns that we can use when we come together and when we connect. That helped to reinforce that we are in a different space and to tune into what it means to be in this board space together and what our culture or all our atmosphere is like. So I do think it can take time and at other times, trust and coming together and attuning to each other can happen really quickly. I do think vulnerability helps with that. Uh, like Laura was saying about being able to share, being open enough to share what's not going well. And I don't think that just has to come from the executive director or CEO. Like it can come from other members of the, of the team, other members of the board. It can create this kind of environment where it's okay to kind of, of share things that, that didn't land or didn't go well. I think that helps to build psychological safety. A really important thing that helps to build, build psychological safety is to create an environment where it is safe to fail and where learning from failure is a lot more important than, um, labeling things as success and failure. I think conflict is another thing, a theme that we see in a lot of teams where we might avoid disagreeing, uh, or situations that feel tense or conflict ridden. Even more so if we're not, we don't have to see that person tomorrow. We just have to wait a month or two. Um, then maybe it would be even easier to, to take the, the easy route out and to say, okay, let's uh, let's just ignore this. So I think leaning into moments of discomfort and tension and being able to name things and say when you disagree, and I think a process that just helps with that is speaking in realm because then we can actually put, rather than waiting for someone to jump in and disagree, we actually can hear from everyone in turn. I think that's a good thing to do for board meetings. Not every conversation requires rounds, but we can use that as a tool to help kind of elicit, um, other ways of looking at things and to get into difficult conversations or if we know something might be a little bit more spicy, we could use that as a way to elicit, um, disagreement and objections about decisions and I think possibly make our decisions a lot stronger, um, and not need to repeat or come back to that same thing again. So those are some things that come up for me. And one of the tools that comes to mind that I use with like almost every team that I work with is a design team alliance. So it is a way of bringing all of those things to the Surface and actually deciding how you want to work, work together. I mean Jeff, you, you mentioned this before, like the ways of working. I think a design team alliance is a way to capture our shared expectations about how we want to be together, how we want to work together, what are our ways of working. It might be different from other environments that we're in. Might include things like our governance, it might include governance pieces. But it, it might be a little bit more dynamic and, and name like the type of feeling we want to have when we're meeting together or how we want to um, engage in difficult conversations. And normally when that question is asked in most environments, I find people will say we're all adults, we'll be fine. So usually like to skip over even talking about what you want to do when you're in conflict. So the conflict hasn't even come up.

Speaker B: We're just, we're just already avoiding it.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're already actively. Oh no, we'll be fine. There won't be any. So I think to actually have that in advance really strengthens teams and can strengthen boards. If we're talking about how do we want to handle things, do we want to take breaks if something gets tense and take a walk around the neighborhood and then come back to this conversation? You know, there's lots of ways that we can handle difficult conversations. And so to actually align on that as a team and to have that be a fluid living agreement, not just a, uh, not, not that it makes it in a terms of reference and then we should never revisit it or change it again. These are living agreements that we can actively adapt and adjust based on how well they're serving us or sometimes it's not, it doesn't work. So we try something a little bit different.

Speaker C: That's really, I really love, I really love that. We um, at Two Wheel View, we did something similar where, with the youth, youth programming in particular, where we would have them do like a full value contract is what we called it. And basically it was them um, kind of deciding sort of the rules of engagement related to how they were going to operate in that club, sort of what the expectations were. And that was something that at least in the, in the, on site at 2 Bill View for our, the Gap Employability Program. That's, you know, every cohort makes that up and it's actually posted on a whiteboard that everybody signs that appears in, in the space. And I think having that kind of like it's intention setting, it's rule setting, it's expectation setting. Is really, really key to kind of, you know, understanding where, where the group wants to go and how do we, how do they want to govern these types of things. And I think it's also too about those individual check ins, um, or group checking in at the beginning of any uh, of any meeting or gathering that you're having and certainly working at 2 Bill View. We did a lot of opening circles and so we usually would start, you know, to kind of get a bit of a temperature check. Like do we know if you know, one of our board members is, is, is really struggling with something and, and um, that's going to bubble up later or do we start with kind of getting an assessment on where people are at and then we can support them through, give them the support they need through that meeting. Um, because we know up front that they're a 3 out of 10 versus you know, an 8 out of 10 or you know, like so, and so is just so happy to be here and contributing. They're a 10 out of 10 every time. And that's amazing. And so we usually have people do a weather check. One being you know, you don't want to be here and this is the worst part of your day and 10 being this is, you know, you're really glad to be here and you've had a really amazing day and you're excited to be a part of this. And so that really helped us kind of gauge where the group is at. And then we'd usually ask an opening circle question as well to kind of just like build that trust and build those little micro, you know, weaving the micro bits of relationship with, with the folks, ah, around the table because they do come from lots of different backgrounds. They don't necessarily, you know, they typically don't have similar jobs, have similar life experiences. But you know, you ask them, um, you know, we'd ask questions anywhere, you know, like, and it depends early, you know, early on in a groups you ask really kind of you lob them something easy in terms of like what's their favorite season or what is their favorite cheese. Um, and then you, you do things that are more, you know, a little more, um, you know, what is their, what kind of um, you know, where, where do they go with, or where do they go with their family on holiday? And so you're asking more of these things which allows members in the circle, whether it's a board or otherwise, uh, to be able to kind of get information from each other and have an understanding of what people's lives look like, what People's family life looks like, what people's life looks and maybe their motivations for also sitting around the table. So we would talk a little bit about, you know, like, what is your favorite part of what we do? What's your favorite program? Um, what's been your, your coolest experience being on the board so far? And so using those moments that are pretty, you know, like most people can participate in that and have something to say about those questions and it allows that moment of trust building and relationship building and it allows you to go to a different level in your meeting than you would otherwise.

Speaker B: Thanks. Both great, great, uh, insights. And before we shift gears a little bit into digging into some of the power dynamics that show up on boards, this question maybe for you, Laura. What's the cost, what's the organizational cost for a, uh, disconnected or misaligned board? Like, what's the impact on organization leadership, team, clients served? Kind of just to paint the picture, because we've talked about how important this is, but I actually can't think of a more important team to be really truly aligned than the ones making large decisions about budgets and personnel and like all the big things. Yeah. So maybe from your perspective, what are some of those downstream costs that, uh, organizations suffer when that board isn't functioning the way that it could?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't that the group that's there the least actually has the biggest impact on all the things that happen in an organization to be true. Like honestly, um, the ripple effect of a misaligned board and uh, board members that are disengaged, um, or struggling to, you know, to be a part of things, um, in a variety of different ways. It has a humongous impact on non profits. You know, from my perspective as an executive director, there was times where I was really, uh, felt like I didn't know what I was doing. I felt like I was definitely in the down power position. You are in the down power position from a board. They are the people that employ you and they've often never done your job. And so you, you sort of feel like you're getting a lot of advice. It isn't necessarily supportive. Uh, you're feeling, you feel a lot actually as an executive director, honestly, that you don't really know what you're doing because often you're building the plane as you fly it. You're trying to figure out all these moving parts. There's, there's a real expectation in our sector and the way that it operates that the executive director is good at Lot like really good at a lot of things. Things. And in most other sectors you have your finance people, you have your HR people, you have your, you know, like your supply people, you have product people, you have marketing. Whereas often that is housed all within one person. And so like I have fixed, I've learned how to fix computers, I've learned how to build websites, I have learned how to do, you know, marketing, I've learned how to be an HR person. I've learned all of these things. And so you, you do feel a lot like you are already, you're already caught on your back foot because you don't, you're actually not trained to do all these things and nor should a human hold all of these things and, and, and, and it's hard to do them all well and at high capacity. And so to have, you know, to have, to have boards comment and give uh, you feedback on that stuff, you know, is important. I think there, there needs to be executive director feedback in order for executive directors to improve and to, to continue to grow and support the mission. But I also think it's sometimes really tricky when you're, you feel like you're doing the best you can and it doesn't seem, it never sort of seems good enough because you actually do have seven different hats that you wear on any given day. I think it's, you know, the ripple effect in terms of um, things like fundraising. Boards are super or can be super critical to fundraising and executive directors and, and organizations need board help and that looks like a lot of different things. That's not necessarily opening your own pocket. That's not necessarily like introducing us to all your friends so we can beg them for money. Um, but certainly there's, you know, there's, there's fundraising, um, can be heavily impacted by, by boards and misaligned boards kind of can wreak havoc in that area. I think, you know, just any of the, you know, staff related HR things. The ripple effect of a misaligned board has a significant impact on an organization and, and not just from like the tactical practical stuff, but also the, the social emotional pieces of the leadership. I talked to a lot of executive directors that feel like they feel like their board doesn't trust them. They feel very unconfident, they feel like they need, um, they need more support, um, and they just, they don't really know how the person, the people that they should trust and lean on most aren't necessarily there for them, um, in the ways that they maybe should be. And I, and I, I think that's not necessarily because they're um, they're meaning to do it. It just because of the way that the system is set up, that because of the way we recruit for boards and often there's not a lot of non profit people that necessarily sit on other boards because they're, they're honestly kind of burnt out from their own board experience on that side of the table. So I think it is about, you know, that there, there is a tremendous cost to boards not being aligned and that, that, that alignment can um, I fully believe can, can change things for, for the leadership of the organization and ultimately for the mission of whoever. You know, the better, the better that the, the team is doing, whether you know, the board and the relationship with the executive director and then the team, um, the better that they're doing, the mission will be even greater because people, those people will deliver on mission every day. Um, but they need the support and they need to have alignment in order to do that.

Speaker B: Thanks. I can imagine that when you think of like the hardest board that you had, maybe the most misaligned or disconnected, and the impact on you as a person, you know, but also in your role and your effectiveness as an executive director in that season compared to your effectiveness as an executive director with an aligned board, I can imagine that there's a, those are two very different experiences, um, for you and for the organization.

Speaker C: Yeah, that was a very like, that feels like an entirely different life to some degree. The journey that I've been on related to boards and certainly um, my not so great board experience. We, I think boards have different types of evolutions depending on how old organizations are. And I think there's kind of almost three phases of boards. My, sort of, in my observation, there's kind of the friends and family board. You know, you started something and you can coerce your friends and family to sit on board because you need people to, to put on the, the CRA forms to become a non registered nonprofit or a registered charity. And then there's kind of the next, the next phase where you're, you've sort of been told through the grapevine that you should have, you know, a lawyer, uh, somebody with finance background, uh, different types of, you know, different types of skills should be on your board. And so you kind of look for kind of just anybody who fits the bill, whether or not they align with your mission, whether or not you actually like hanging out with them, things like that. And uh, and then that's, I think that the messy middle, like for me that was definitely the messy middle is where we didn't, we didn't look into and we didn't kind of take the time to sort of to connect with the people on a social, emotional level to understand if they were actually the, the people that we needed around the table for the type of leader that I am. And that wasn't that we didn't really recruit for that. It was more like, oh, they, they're smart at something and, and cool.

Speaker B: Um, they put their hand up and said they would.

Speaker C: Yeah, we're like, we're just grateful somebody's like, willing to sit around this table with us. That's amazing. And I think that that's often also nonprofit. People put themselves in a, in the down power position when they shouldn't. And there's more work to be done there within the sector to sit more fully in the power and the expert expertise and confidence that we do and should have. But yeah, that, for me, that was the, you know, that was the messy middle where we were trying to figure out, you know, how do we. How do we operate in the space that is aggressive and there's a lot of gaslighting. There's a lot of like, really challenging times, uh, during that, during that period. And you know, really pleased that, you know, the board that I left two Wheel View, like an incredible, incredible board. Like folks that I genuinely enjoy hanging out with and genuinely enjoyed working on things with and could. Could go to and say, this is not working or I am struggling with this. And so, um, but that, you know, that takes a certain level of making sure that you're, you know, you're seeking alignment from people. Even before, you know, right at the beginning in the recruitment phase. And, and how does that look? We changed the entire way we recruited at two Wheelview. Uh, when we decided we needed to make a cultural shift, everything else in the organization had a pretty great culture. The youth were getting. That part was always rocking. And then we worked really hard on the staff culture part and that part was really great. And then there was just this outlier situation that we worked really hard to bring to find the people that would bring that positive culture would bring that things that we, we would, we would want to put them in front of young people and have them connect and program and that, that, you know, you could see what we were building from the program level with the youth. We could see that trickling all the way up, uh, to the board. And so that was super critical to start recruiting differently and really making sure that, you know, uh, they met with a Couple of board members, they met with me. And so there was always kind of this opportunity for people to go. I'm not sure if that person's the right fit for what we want to. What we. The. The, you know, as. As the people say today, the vibe that we're going for, uh, with. With our board. But I think it's. It's super, super important to have. To have that, you know, to have those things figured out, because it's. For me, it took a very personal toll. It took a lot of, um, a lot from my mental health, for sure. A lot of. A lot for me physically. Um, but, you know, in some ways I don't think, you know. Well, I don't think anybody should have to go through that experience. I do think what's really cool about my journey in that is that I was able to, you know, use my own power and enact change and create support and create a situation that was far better than I found it. And it has been a real learning experience. And it also has given me sort of a bit of a platform to an ability to relate to other leaders that are going through things similar, uh, to I did because. Because it's certainly. I don't, you know, I don't. I wouldn't want to go through it again, mind you, but certainly it has been a powerful learning tool and teaching a, like, learning opportunity for myself, for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. And I think that vibe check is really important. The amount of energy and effort and intention we put into hiring leaders within organizations, and then we go and hire their bosses, as, you know, these board members with very little of the same kind of rigor or intention. I think that that values alignment. Yeah. Super important part of this conversation. So knowing.

Speaker C: Knowing your culture is so key and making sure that. That there's no exceptions to that. Like, if you've decided that the culture of your organization looks like this, and it's not just, you know, here's what our five values are, and that's what's on the website. It's like, really dig into, like, how does it actually feel to be in this space? How. And also in this journey. I really fell in love with, like, organizational culture. And how do you. How do you. How does it feel to be in this space? What do you want to feel when you come? What do you want to feel when you go? What do you want, you know, what do you want the, like, the environment to be telling people about what you're doing and how you're showing up and, and how do you use the environment to also help, you know, people understand the. The culture that you're trying to convey that might not be easily sort of put into words or that vibe? So one of the things we did at Tubal View is we actually, um, in the main area, we created an appreciation station. So we have, you know, we. One of my amazing staff, like, made letters and said appreciation station. And then we had an opportunity for people to actually engage with that board, appreciate others in the organization. And, um, and then people could see that. People could physically see that in our space. And so it's like, this is part of what we do, is we appreciate around here. And we actually, every meeting, whether it was a youth, youth, uh, beat like a youth program, our, uh, our staff programming or our board, uh, once we got things kind of shifted around, we would always end with an appreciation circle. And so the idea that you're leaving, it's good for our brains to end with appreciation. But I think it's also. It was super key to our culture to have that permeate through all the levels and have the board members recognize each other and recognize, you know, me and me for having an opportunity to also publicly recognize them, um, because there's not enough of those opportunities to also acknowledge the service that people are doing. And I think that that's important part, uh, of the sort of feedback loop of. Of the communication and boards.

Speaker A: I know we might need to move on. But anyway, I really think this, the values being embodied is a really important part of what's being named here. It's not just being able to recite values or it's not keywords and knowing what they mean, but actually feeling them and, um, having an embodied experience of organizational values. And I love the point of having that as a parallel process that carries through your whole organization and absolutely applies to your board and your recruitment processes. So I love what's being named there. And the second piece that I wanted to jump on was as I heard Laura describing the experience and the not so good experience, it made me think about the responsibility of a board member to develop their adaptability. Because now there is a. And inevitably there are changeovers. So now there's a season where that organization might go through a bit of a shift, and what would serve the next executive director might be a little bit different. And I think as a board member, we need to be standing in a position of being very adaptable to meet the needs of, okay, what is the oncoming executive director need from me? How might I need to shift and you know, still aligning with the values that we've talked about as an organization that are embedded. But there might be differences in, in personality and preferences that we need to adapt to as board members. So I think of that as like a high level responsibility. We can't just go in and do what we want to do as board members. We actually need to, to actively be

Speaker B: developing our adaptability, responsive to the needs of the organization and to the executive. Um, I'm going to officially suggest that we need a round two. So this will be part one of nonprofit board alignment conversation, because we've got things we have on the list to talk about that we are just not going to get to in today's time. But I would maybe do a lightning round of a few questions and get each of your quick take on them kind of that initial just off the top of uh, your head or off the cuff conversations. Uh, so, you know, we've been looking at this from, you know, a few different perspectives and angles. And some of the work that we do is around foundations and alignment. And a lot of the work is coming alongside boards and executive directors and doing some of that co creation of expectations and navigating assumptions and on that territory. But why hasn't traditional governance board training solved for this issue? This is not a new issue. This is one that we've been sitting with for a long time. But Nick, what's not working that we keep doing, um, or something that we just have decided not to do for whatever reason as organizations or as the coaches and consultants coming to support.

Speaker A: I don't know if I'm exactly answering your question, Jeff, so feel free to. That's okay, um, send it back. But uh, what's coming up for me, as you asked this question, maybe I translated in my head, but I was thinking about where, uh, going through the motions of a system that was designed in a different context. And so I think the challenges that we have to meet today are very, very different than most of the governance structures that I've been exposed to were designed to meet. Or. Yeah, I just think there's uh, a, there's a big gap between where we are right now and the structures that have been designed. And I think, I think the conversations that we're not having is about that. Is this structure meeting our need? Are there things that we're missing out on? Is there a different way or a better way for us to organize together, for us to share responsibility, for us to share leadership? What would it look like to share power? I mean, I don't think a lot of our structures are asking those questions. And so, yeah, most of the time we're going through the motions of following a design that, uh, might not be serving us very well right now.

Speaker B: That's definitely a round two podcast that's its own episode is the structure and function of our organizations and how we've built them, especially in the nonprofit.

Speaker C: Well, and it's not, it's not incentivized to those in up power positions to necessarily make a change. Right. Like, I think these are, you know, this is again, yeah, like you say, Jeff, an entirely different podcast, but, um, or another podcast. But I think it's, uh, you know, it's, it's. We've, we've kind of just, you know, in nonprofit world, I would say to some degree, we're always kind of like, well, this is just how it goes. And so this is just sort of what you get because everybody goes through it. And I think we're, we're starting to get into a time where that's just, just, we just can't, we can't afford to fail and we can't afford to like, have these, have any parts of the system be, you know, unconnected, like out of alignment or disconnected or to be traumatic or, you know, stressful in this way. Because we just, we have to really focus on serving the mission and serving the people that, you know, are in the environment that we're, we're protecting. And so we, we. It's, you know, now is, now is the time.

Speaker B: One more quick question to get your quick take on, and then we'll wrap this up. But what's a signal or what's a sign, um, that a board thinks it's functioning well, but it's actually not.

Speaker C: There's probably plenty of boards that, uh, believe their, believe they're aligning, um, more greatly than they, they are. I experience them all the time. I feel like I have connected with lots of people who struggle with that. And I think it's really, you know, it's, it's people not being curious and asking questions. I think it looks like disengagement around a table. It looks like people skipping board meetings for no real. Kind of like, you know, there's excuses or different things or people are not showing up in the way. And it is hard to sustain, you know, energy for sure, for lots of this. And again, back to term limits, like, don't stay too long. Um, but I think, you know, it does, it does look like an energy shift. I do think it looks like you, you can't, um, you know, decisions aren't, aren't moving forward and that, you know, people don't feel like they're having an impact. And I think that that, and certainly from the executive director side it looks like miscommunication, it looks like back channeling, it looks like lack of trust to some degree. It looks like things that are, you know, well meaning emails that are sent but kind of if you read between the lines are telling you you're not good at your job. Uh, it's, it's those kinds of things that show up and, and I think that's, that sort of indicates to me that the boards are, that boards are not necessarily where they need to be in terms of alignment.

Speaker B: Nick, uh, over to you to give us a quick rundown of the board alignment workshop that we've been working on. And you don't have to give the details and the specifics but kind of who's it for and what's the overall vision for that, for that workshop, for that experience? Because obviously it's a challenge we've noticed in our practice at various levels. M. We're hoping to tackle it in a meaningful way. Speak a little bit about the workshop and I won't hold you to anything that you say here because we might make a different decision and redesign.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think our, our goal with this workshop is to actively support board members regardless of what your role is in the board. To develop uh, approaches, skills, tools, um, and to practice those in an environment with other interested board members that will help you to uh, remain connected and deeply aligned with your fellow board members. And it's not about. Some of the traditional workshops might be about checking off the list or getting the governance pieces right. This is about how can we work together really well when we're on a board. How can we attune to each other in a relational way, how can we connect in, to each other so that the decisions that we make are really strong? And the trickle down effect is we see lots of good things within an organization. An executive director or CEO that's supported and that works its way throughout the whole organization. And it's going to be, this is a two session workshop so we'll do two, two, two hours um, together. Uh, both times are going to be virtual and we're offering one um, in the spring and one in the, the fall.

Speaker B: I would echo the. It's about being able to notice some of the patterns that we've talked about today and some of those underlying issues and power dynamic challenges. Regardless of where you're at in your board journey. And so this is perfect for the brand new board member that wants to set out on the right foot. It's perfect for the board chair that's noticing maybe some disengagement around the table or some friction with the executive director. Um, really for anyone who wants to show up in a really meaningful way and really step into the power that they do have as a board member. I think we've talked about the, you know, executive directors being in a down power role in that dynamic, which means that when you are a board member, you do have more power in the system and so being able to hold that. But there's also some vulnerabilities and responsibilities that come with that too, that we want to be able to talk about in a really meaningful way because, you know, those expectations that we might be feeling walking into that room as a board member, needing to have the answers, needing to have the hard questions, needing to do all these things. There's reasons, um, behind all of that. And so we'll, so we'll dig into that, um, in a safe kind of peer supported environment. So, yeah, really looking forward to uh, that workshop. Ah, series. Nick, Laura, thank you so much for joining today on the leaderful podcast to talk about this really important dynamic, um, in the nonprofit space, which is that board health and relationship to the executive team and the organization and how board members can really step into their power, um, in a really meaningful way. So a pleasure as always to connect with you.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks Jeff, for hosting. And, and yeah, one thing I think I would love people to leave with is the piece about curiosity that Laura mentioned. That's kind of sitting on the edge of my mind that as a board member practicing with curious, practicing curiosity might be, uh, something to apply at the next board meeting. And sometimes I make the distinction between curiosity and like being interested in the gossip. Like not, not looking for all the details, but being deeply curious about what's happening for the person in front of you for the organization, and less curious about the details, not, not about the gossip, but about the meaningful, deep stuff, the mission, the values, how that's showing up. So that's, that's the invitation I think I'm leaving with.

Speaker B: I love that invitation because it's, it's actually quite challenging to misuse your power when you're being curious. If you're being genuinely curious, it's really tough to accidentally misuse your power. And it's much safe for staff or executive or fellow board members to lean into that then that kind of.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Probing curiosity or gossip curiosity or whatever that other forms that shows up. So thanks for that Laura. Any, any last bits of wisdom for anyone listening?

Speaker C: Yeah, I just, I just want to thank you both so much. This is something I've thought about for a long time that would have been useful for me, you know, nine plus years ago as I was stepping in as a new executive director. And I do think, you know, I did think we can shift. I think that this is what's really cool about this time is that we can connect with people kind of everywhere and that you know, I invite people beyond the Calgary area that are a part of this to, to jump in on these sessions and give your perspective on how it might be different and, and really. Um, you know, and I think it's, it's. Yeah, I'm excited to be able to provide this kind of and have my lived experience also be a part of this and have the opportunity to share that, that uh, to hopefully make it better for everybody else. Because I think that's ultimately what you know, us in the non profit sector and social impact space are here to do is to make the world better for someone else. And, and I think that that's, this is a, is a really neat way of my being able to use my journey for that. And so thank you to you both for the opportunity to, to collaborate on these, these things and, and other stuff we have going on and, and uh. Yeah, thanks to everybody for, for listening to us and being a part of it.

Speaker B: Leaderful is brought to you by the Ally Co, a team of human centered systems conscious consultants, coaches and facilitators dedicated to helping you and your team tackle the core problems of burnout and stuckness and misalignment and misuses of power and all of the things that get in the way of creating truly human centered workplaces where everyone thrives and does their best work. Head over to www.theallico world to learn more.