Decolonizing Leadership and AI with Christian Ortiz

Speaker A: It was placed there that we weren't born with this. Right. That's not a natural occurrence. And so the implicit conditioning is simply that it's a level of awareness for my audience and audiences everywhere to understand that, yeah, that was placed there. And because it was placed there, we have the, uh, ability to remove it, to unearth it from ourselves.

Speaker B: This is leaderful, where we give you the models and the frameworks, the strategies and the skills that you need to drive true transformation yourself, your team, your organization, and the world. Welcome to the show. Welcome to another episode of the Leaderful podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Coulard, and today's guest is Christian Ortiz, an Afro indigenous decolonial social scientist, technologist, and the founder and CEO of Mod Atlas Media and Justice AI GPT. He's created the Decolonial Intelligence Algorithmic Framework and Justice AI GPT, the first decolonial AI framework that confronts AI bias at its root. Christian brings over two decades of experience in digital transformation, blending strategy, storytelling, and systems design to build technology that serves collective liberation. Our conversation today has a little bit of everything we dig into power dynamics and AI tools and how to use them, like I said, for collective liberation and for addressing issues of equity and inclusion in our organizations. I thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation, and I'm sure you will as well. So without further ado, here's Christian. Christian, welcome to the leaderfoot podcast. It is so great to have you on the show, and I'm really excited about today's conversation.

Speaker A: Same here, man. It's always great to see you, and I'm super glad to be here, truly.

Speaker B: Yeah. And we've got so much to talk about that I'm already going to plant the seed that we're going to have to do around two, because there's no way we're going to get through these meaty topics, um, together in the next 45 minutes to an hour. But let's try. Let's do our best to tackle power and equity and bias and AI. Any one of those is its own couple of topics for a podcast, but let's see what's there, because the work that you're doing in the world is really complementary to the work that we're doing in the world around helping teams and leaders navigate power dynamics. You're bringing the tools to the table for people to really get under the hood around some of that systemic bias and inequity issues that plague our systems in all kinds of ways. And so, selfishly, I'm excited for this conversation because I Always learn so much from you. But let's, uh, let's kick it off there. I'm going to turn it over to you. Um, just maybe give the listener a little. A brief overview, a little backstory. I'll have done an intro so people know you're Christian Ortiz. You're a decolonial social scientist. But what does that mean in practice? Uh, what are you most excited about these days?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, as a decolonial social scientist, it basically means I study the world before, during and after European colonization. And I study how colonization manifests today, not only through our media and through our news and music and entertainment, uh, but how it manifests in our body, especially how we're racialized, um, in this society. Um, and I study European colonization specifically, other than any other conquest, because we are still under colonial occupation worldwide. And so it only makes sense to study European colonization and not, say, Arab colonization or anything of the ancient conquests that we've gone in before. Uh, and so because we've adopted this system and inherited the system that we didn't ask for, uh, we struggle a lot and we, uh, sometimes don't know, uh, or have the ability to identify the issues that come up, um, within our personal lives, our relationships, our, um, professional lives in the workplace. And bias is an everyone problem. And because, um, our social biases today are the byproduct of European colonization, decolonization is the antithesis. It's what connects the dots, to help us see the bigger picture and to make better decisions. Ultimately,

Speaker B: that strikes me like it's a massive undertaking. Like, we're talking about overhauling some systems that, you know, systems of power that exist, that have existed for a long time, where there's likely a vested interest to maintain the system, um, from lots of people with power. Um, how do you approach that? Like, what's. What's been your approach? And I want to dig into justice. AI Obviously, at some point we're going to dig into, um, the tool itself and how and how it shows up and helps it unpack some of that. That systemic bias. But, um, yeah, maybe, like, let's talk a little bit about bias. Maybe let's start there, because I think, you know, I always forget to define power. I get that feedback all the time. I just start talking about power as if everybody knows what the heck I'm talking about. And I assume the same might be true for bias, because. But let's just define it. When you say bias, what are we exactly are we talking about?

Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's a Great question, because I always forget to define, uh, bias as well. So we get into these heavy conversations, and, uh, it usually happens like we're an hour in and then it starts clicking for people. And I should have just said this in the beginning, so thank you for that. Um, so bias, you probably have heard terms like implicit bias, um, which, you know, basically says that we carry these biases and we don't even know about them. And, um, which is kind of true. Right. We've adopted the system that, um, teaches us these biases, and it does it through what we ingest through media and the movies and the rhetorics that we hear in our circles and our bubbles, um, no matter where you are around the world. Right. And so how implicit bias usually works is, um, if you think about the concept of anti blackness, about how society views black or brown people, and you see a black or brown person, um, whether you know it or not, there might be a split second, uh, of a sense of danger. Your, uh, your amygdala reacts. It's always looking for danger. We've been taught to see them as dangerous. Right. Or questionable. And then. I'm not trying to make general statements. These are just. This is just the truth and a reality. I grew up with it. A whole bunch of people that I know grew up this way. That is what we call implicit bias. It's this bias where we don't really know where it comes from, but we all understand that we have it. And sometimes we're unaware that we are reacting through it. Um, what I've defined is it's actually implicit conditioning. And it is implicit because it is the system that we've adopted that implicitly conditions us to see each other, uh, and see those who look different, who live different, who love different, um, and other them. Right? Because we have to protect ourselves for whatever identity we've identified. And so bias is really insidious. It's really, uh, in the shadows. And it creeps up when you don't know it. And it manifests in a multitude of ways. And so there's not really a singular way to identify the different types of biases. And so through a decolonial lens, we just say all of these harmful social biases, um, that, uh, that we carry. Uh, we really have to be able to take a look and understand that it was placed there, that we weren't born with this. Right. That's not a natural occurrence. And so the implicit conditioning is simply that it's a level of awareness for my audience and audiences everywhere to understand that yeah, that was placed there. And because it was placed there, we have the, uh, ability to remove it, to unearth it from ourselves.

Speaker B: It strikes me like we're actually talking about the operating system that we use to navigate the world, the communities that we're a part of or society that we're a part of. It has these rules and kind of these operating systems operating in the background that contain a bunch of biases based on often systemic power. Who has power? And so when we think about language, language is the operating system that we use to make sense of the world. And so I assume that a lot of bias is actually, like, loaded up into our language. Um, a place to start, um, for a lot of us is to look at the words we use and the things we say and the things that, uh, you know, policies we write and all of the things I'm sure we can m. Maybe that's a place to start is how do you. How do you. How have you approached tackling bias at more of a systemic level as opposed to an individual level? Maybe there's a little, like, tirade here around, like, most of the work around bias has been at the individualistic level. That kind of like bias training in the DEI space happened for probably a decade or more. That was like the default, the go to approach was just to make people more aware of their individualistic biases and expect that that's going to change the system. And of course it hasn't, doesn't. And I think there's research that shows it's backfired in lots of ways in lots of spaces. But that aside, um, tackling the language piece or the operating system piece, let's talk about that. How do you do that?

Speaker A: Uh, I think you put that so brilliantly. Uh, and the truth is, uh, we do treat it as an individualistic issue and we don't understand it as a systemic issue and a systems issue. Um, and if we're able to wrap our heads around that it's the system that conditions us to be this way, then guess what, we can then make systemic changes. And even if you get to that point where you understand that it's a systems issue, we've never had a tool to help us actually figure out what the hell that looks like. Right? So it leaves you in a place of vulnerability. I can imagine that, um, leaders who are CEOs, C suite to even, um, board members, uh, you know, we get. We get trained really indoctrinated into this belief that, well, everybody has bias, so what do I care, right? We can Afford to mitigate a billion dollar lawsuit. So what do I care? So we never put tools in place to mitigate these issues. Um, when AI came out and I kept hearing this terminology, this term language model, as a decolonial social scientist, I understand that language is never neutral. Language is power. And depending on who wield it, we get to form a belief system and language becomes policy. And language under powerful hands demonizes other groups for positions of power. And so when we understand that, um, I figured pretty early that I said, well, what if we create a language model that gives us the language that we need for the first time ever in history to navigate these incredibly challenging, incredibly confronting conversations about bias. And, uh, holding a mirror to ourselves is always, is never fun. Right? Um, and so whatever gets activated, we now have a tool to help us navigate that. So my, uh, tool just to say I, just to answer your question, to go back a little bit, um, it definitely is a multifaceted tool where the individual can use it to identify and understand their own biases historically. But if you're thinking about an organization that adopts it now we're talking about, um, having the ability to make real structural change, uh, that really does the work, the ethical work in changing organizational, uh, structure from within.

Speaker B: And we're going to dig into that. And I want to take a little side track on this idea of systemic power, because I think that when we first started talking about this work and when I think about how bias and language and the connection there, and even this like, individualistic approach that we tend to take, these are all manifestations of systemic power and cultural beliefs and things like you said before, that we've inherited, often unquestioningly, like, we just don't question capitalism. Even though I've been part of lots of conversations where we like, trace the problem and eventually it points to capitalism and we're all like, huh, what huh do we do about that? Right? Or to the patriarchy or to, you know, white supremacy or some of these, like, big, fairly loaded conversations, um, that are quite polarizing in nature. I think that becomes part of the problem is like systemically there's a desire, the system likes to polarize things because then you get a right or a wrong them, them, an us and a them, and like this very kind of binary nature, which is in itself a version of the problem that we're trying to wrestle with. Right? Is this, this othering and this bias based in othering? Um, no real question there. Just Jeff rambling about the connection between systemic power and these like, systems of oppression that we inherit, um, that we don't really have the tools to question. So maybe that is a segue into Justice AI and using Justice AI as a way to find new language, find alternative language and understand bias and how it shows up. Because like you said right off the top, it's very, like, very insidious. Right. It'll make its way into our organizational policies. It's on our websites, it's in our language, our performance reviews, like, all the places where we.

Speaker A: It's everywhere.

Speaker B: Everywhere. So where have you seen success? Like, where have you seen maybe organizational clients using Justice AI as a tool for unpacking some of that language and kind of addressing some of those systemic biases, like maybe a few examples. Um, we can dig in from there.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, just for a little context, before I even dive into that, I want to remind people that the way that I kind of diffuse the room, when I'm in the boardroom and I'm talking to, uh, a powerhouse group, decision makers who are ready to write the check, ready to have this conversation, I immediately make them understand that I'm the byproduct of the 80s and 90s kid who grew up in, uh, Los Angeles, Hollywood, New Jersey, New York, in the south of the States, who. We wore our biases in our sleeves. Like, we were a very toxic society when I was growing up, right? So we mocked accents, we mocked, uh, the disabled. Like, just being honest. We were. We did a lot of terrible things that were just normalized through culture. Um, I grew up in a hyper patriarchal, hyper machismo driven, uh, patriarchal Latino household, um, driven by the patriarchy and religion and all of these things that were weaponized to condition us, to operate in a singular, linear way. Um, and so when. When it came time for me to understand that how we operated collectively as a society was not only problematic, but we get to. I got to see my contribution to the world in that it was. It's something that. I understand why people have a hesitation having this conversation. So I say all that to say that before we even talk about this, there is no innocent, uh, bystander in all of this.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: We are all complicit in this system. We didn't ask for it. This is just how it is. Um, so when we have these conversations of bias, uh, it's really about raising awareness to help individuals, especially leaders and organizations, understand what bias is costing them. Ultimately, bias is a very expensive thing, and we don't understand it until it's too late. Right. Um, a lot of organizations feel like, well, if we have an HR case or uh, if we misgender somebody, and now somebody's taking us to court, we, we have enough to pay them off and it's fine. Like we can just mitigate it, slide it under the rug. We can learn as we go as much as we possibly can. But usually that learning ends up being how can we penalize people to keep them quiet more to protect the company versus, uh, you know, giving them opportunity, just, just be themselves. Right? Because it takes massive internal change to, to make an employee feel at home if your organization has historically operated in a complete opposite way. And so this isn't an overnight thing. This is a, this is a journey. Uh, I always tell my leadership, my CEOs, like, it's, it's okay to fuck up. It's okay to make mistakes. It's. You're gonna make them. It's okay to say the wrong things. It's okay to do all the things as long as you're learning in the process how to make it better. Right? But in at the same time, not to excuse this behavior, I have to come in and understand that. We've never had tools to really understand this. We've never had guidance to really come into the work and me tell you about how you're messing up without it feeling like me finger pointing and activating your inner child. And all of a sudden you're getting pissed off because who the fuck am I to come into your organization to tell you how to run it, right? Like we've heard all of these conversations so they can, there's, there's an opportunity to really diffuse that from the get go just to say, hey, I see you because I need to see you. I hear you and I know where you're coming from. And so it's more than just understanding the biases. It's understanding, uh, how we're human and how to really build connections and bridges that way through conversation so that we can even get to the beginnings of what this work actually looks like. And so for me, it's really confronting for a lot of folks. But uh, part of the work is getting them across that bridge to help them say, hey, I'm not the bad guy here. Actually we're here to help you and I'm here to walk you through this. And now you have a tool like Justice AI that you can just talk to in the privacy of your own office and ask all the questions. And it literally has the guidance, the global knowledge to help you walk through and give you A fuller picture so that it's not just so one sided, um, in the ways that we've been conditioned to see the world, if that makes sense.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I appreciate that kind of that human perspective like that seeing people as humans because that's again, it's a big piece of our work is making sure that people can show up and be imperfect humans and 100 make the, you know, the commitments to change. I, I imagine that there's a certain level of readiness or willingness required, um, for people to want to pull the mirror up. You know, we often use that mirror analogy and it's not always comfortable to look in the mirror and see the ways in which we've replicated harm or bias or you know, misused power. In our, in our world we'd use language around, you know, unintentional misuses of power are still misuses of power that have a negative impact in the same way that kind of maintaining a bias is harmful. And there's a question here forming for me around this like knowing better and then doing better. Peace. I think it's Maya Angelou said, like, you know better and then you do better. Um, and Justice AI I think is one of those tools that's kind of as far as mirrors go, being able to m. Mirror back the things we say or the things we write to actually give us the like. Actually this is problematic in these ways, I know with Justice AI a few times and been like, hey, help me, you know, take this blog post and let me know, you know, deconstruct their bias or do a bias audit. And they'll be like, this is a male gaze, Westernized, individualistic view of leadership, Jeff. And I'm like, oh, you're, I thought

Speaker A: I was doing so well.

Speaker B: Um, but uh, I know, I know for feedback. Um, and like you said in the, in the comfort. Because you know, the only other way to get feedback for a lot of leaders, organizations is to go to already marginalized and oppressed communities and ask for their feedback. And that becomes problematic in lots of ways. Right. It's a shift in power because the responsibility when you have power is to understand that power and to show up better with it. And so, you know, I love Justice AI as a tool for that piece of it of like disburdening the people that we've already burdened with too much. Um, from a perspective. So, um, for sure, no real questions emerging here other than just like, yes, that.

Speaker A: No, no. But, uh, it, but it's so good to hear you say that because from A user, uh, perspective. Right. As a white male user perspective. Can you tell me just like, what was that like, the first time you. You ran something through it and it called you out on it? I say call you out because, you know, Jai doesn't. She's not never pointing the finger judging you. She's just like, hey, let's pause for a second. Here's what's up.

Speaker B: Here's the way.

Speaker A: Problematic, correct? Yeah. What does that do? Uh, what did that do for you? Um, and I. And I obviously, I know you're. I don't even. It's not that I see you as a leader. You're a leader in this space. When we talk about power and facilitation and consulting, what does that do for you? Or what did it do for you? And then how did you, uh. In. In the realm of when you know better, do better? How did that change things for you? Like, if you don't mind being a little vulnerable there and talking about that. That piece of it? Because I think that's. I think you speaking on that is a good example to let people know that, hey, it's okay to do that. Right? Back to. It's okay to fuck up. Like, it's.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Or it's okay to say and do whatever.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think it's, you know, for me, like, the journey with justice AI has been like, part of an ongoing learning journey about power and language and the implicit conditioning that I've received. I'm not immune. Like, all of us were byproducts of the system. Um, but we don't. Like, there's no. There's no language out there for it. There's no teaching in the mainstream. Right. It's like I encountered any of this, like, maybe in college, maybe some folks in university will take an elective on something related to this domain. But like K to 12 schooling now, it shifted a little bit because my son is often calling me out on stuff and he's like, dad, that's not. That's not okay. And I'm like, seriously, since when?

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: So there is hope for the next generation.

Speaker A: 100%, yes.

Speaker B: 100 required.

Speaker A: Um, that's good.

Speaker B: I think it's the. Yeah, it's been like a thinking partner. So like a thought partner for. Here's the thing I'm trying to say. And I don't want to be accidentally exclusive, Right. I want to be as inclusive as possible. I don't want to replicate harm. Can you point out, you know, alternative phrasing or alternative things or like, what am I missing from this? And that's where it's a bit of a. It's more of a co creative process, um, which is generally speaking how I use AI. It's not usually, uh, like spit something out for me that I can then replicate or just like put somewhere. It's usually like a thinking partner, an evolutionary thing. And so, you know, often it'll be something around a systemic bias that I probably wasn't thinking about that now suddenly is in front of me and then I can make a choice, right? Uh, do I adapt the piece for this or does I recognize that this is, is what it is? And so there's times when I take jazz feedback and I incorporate it, and there's other times I'm like, no, it's okay, like it's good enough as is. But now I'm aware of it and I'm sure it's shifted. Like the raw material that I'm now feeding into it is better. The.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, I think we, we sat down and ran this at one point, which is just like, I know it, but then having it reinforced is helpful. So there was a. You and I were doing a webinar and we thought, you know, what would be a prompt for JI, uh, Justice AI. And it was like, well, let's ask it to, you know, give us a list of, of leaders, like well regarded or like world class leaders or something. I forget what the exact prompt was, but we fed that to a couple of different language models and it gave us the usual subs, you know, suspects, the Bezos and Elon Musk and Warren Buffett and like a variety of white male like presidents. And then maybe a token like Obama might have made it on there. Like, who knows? It was like very much like Fortune 100 magazine covers of white rich men. And then we asked the same prompt of justice AI and it's like, first of all, your question is problematic. Like right away was like, there's no right or wrong. This is like. And it's like, oh shit. Like, this is a different conversation, like a fundamentally different conversation with Justice AI because it's coming at it from a totally different perspective, a decolonized language perspective. And so just the quality of the thinking, the breadth and diversity of the responses and answers, um, so it's like as a thought partner co, an educational tool, um, has been like, hugely helpful from that perspective. And I think that, you know, there's an openness and I can see where people have to be ready for that conversation. Like there's a certain level of readiness. There's a baseline readiness where it's like, I don't know what. I don't know. I'm going to learn some things about my perspective, my language, and the things that I think that may or may not be true or accurate or they're like. It's, you know, can't hide from the mirror. So, yeah, that's not a short answer to question, but that's been some of the.

Speaker A: No, no, no, no. But all of that has so much meat to it because it's so good to hear from that perspective. You know, when you were. When you were just talking about the prompts that we were using and even the problematic questions that we ask. That's the big thing about this tool too, is that we, uh, ask the wrong questions. Probably 40 to 50% of the time, we're asking them in wrong ways because our perspectives are so skewed. Um, I had a teacher just tell me the other day they were, um, no, excuse me, not a teacher. It was a doctor, uh, who used one of my medical AI bias tools that I developed with Jai. Um, they live in the south, and they asked a question. They were asking such racist questions, but they, they. They don't know that they're racist at all. They're just like, it's just a perspective. It's true to me. So I think he asked something like, why are all my black patients so poor? And Jai was just like, we gotta pause just right from there. Right? Like, first of all, your question is wrong. Um, and granted, depending on where you are, you know better than to ask a question like that. But, you know, when you talk, when you think about populations around the world, colonial, uh, occupation manifests all around the world. These biases manifest all around the world, uh, differently, sometimes similarly, but differently around the world. But they are all there due to the same cancerous foundation.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: So if you have a. Again, if you have that tool to use, uh, with the ability to connect those dots, then I think it's just like, it leaves you with this. Like, I can't believe I never thought of this, or I can't believe I never, um, you know, I was never told this or whatever. We go through a lot of internal things. And so part of the. The key goodie to Jai, to justice AI is, uh, is that it's programmed with this empathy to help end this emotional maturity, to help carry a conversation where already AI is there to appease. These language models are there to give you. To lift you up and make you Feel like you can do no wrong. Um, but she does it with empathy to tell you that, yeah, we've been doing it wrong all along. And, and there's a reason, and there's this, that, and the other. So just having this Tool man is, is fantastic. But I really wanted to take a second too, to give you kudos, because the more I hear you talk about power through the individualistic lens, they go hand in hand. Right? Because I feel like with Justice AI and the work that I do, it really reveals the core function of the human being from the system that we've inherited. But I love the way you paint power, the picture of power in organizations, because it's the next step. It's, what does that look like through the byproduct of how we're automated? And I use automated from a systemic term. But how do these systems that condition us automate us to operate in these problematic ways, especially through power and especially through responsibility? And so, um, you know, to be completely honest, it's like, I'm so glad that we're doing this, this, uh, workshop coming in. Not to plug it in shamelessly or whatever, but I'm super stoked because I feel like what you're bringing to the table is the missing piece that I can't speak to pretty well from an individualistic perspective, from an operational perspective. I just know that the system is the issue and it causes all of these problems. But I think, you know, to be able to provide a full picture for somebody who's in a position of power to really ask themselves questions like, what is my responsibility as a CEO? Right? What, what kind. How much humility do I need where I do have to be confident in my delivery when I'm speaking in a. In a meeting to. When I'm in close quarters with the board and I need to make decisions that are, um, are going to not only better the culture of the organization, but you're also there to make money. So if it's about your bottom dollar too, like, bias is costly, right? And so I feel like, you know, I'm not a tech bro, I'm not a capitalist, but I can't shit on the system because we can't pretend like we don't have kids and bills and all of these things. And we can't pretend that I didn't build an ethical system that's making literal life change. So for me, I sit in this duality of decoloniality, to me, isn't about deconstructing everything that we know that we've adopted. We have developed some pretty awesome stuff in society that has really amplified our culture and our ways of thinking. Uh, but what if we were able to decolonize those problematic sectors and build something new that we've never seen before? And that's kind of my purpose and this beautiful journey that I'm stuck on. Because the unknown for me is super exciting. Which I know for the majority of people it's just like, no, I need an answer now. I need to know what this looks like. Because whatever, just give me certainty. Just give me certainty. And so, uh, you know, in that, in that balance and duality, I live in this, this, this truth where I, I'm not here to convince anybody of anything they're not ready to hear. That's not my job. But I am, uh, planting enough seeds at the same time that hopefully will, will blossom in your soil at some point or matter. And so I, uh, it's, for me, it's not about convincing. It's more about how do, how do I show up as a leader to, to amplify the brilliance of other leaders because they already have a foundation of leadership and power and understanding of, of the world. They just need a little guidance into amplifying that, that greatness. And so this, as we co create with this AI tool, we're co creating with each other through this consulting and um, through this service as well. And so again, it's really just about building bridges. And I think that we don't have to deep dive so much when we have these conversations with organizations with people who, especially people who are in your circle with the ally co who come in. They are there because they want to do better. They are there because they want to understand better. I don't come into these spaces thinking they just don't care or they don't want to see the big picture or what have you. It's really interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, there's so much going on in these conversations. It's not ever just about bias or just about power. It's values and needs and vision for the world. And so I think that power conversation is one that I've been on this journey of exploring power ever since I was working in addiction and mental health, working with youth out in the woods. And as soon as we understood that we were navigating power dynamics as opposed to fixing addiction or whatever. The like, the tip of the spear kind of surface level thing was that we were helping kids navigate addiction issues and live a healthier life. But the reality is that we were actually helping them Navigate power dynamics, the power that they held and how to use that power and how to show up as their most powerful selves. And the power dynamics they were navigating with their parents and their parole officers and their, um, teachers and whoever else, uh, as part of the system. Um, and so I think the, you know, both of these are really important, but they're really kind of the same conversation rooted in this idea of, you know, we have power as individuals to affect change. That's all power is. So to define it half an hour into the conversation, power is just the ability to affect change, right? Uh, and it's that change can be experienced as positive or negative, right. For ourselves and for individuals. And so not to be too binary, but it's like, right, uses of power are uses, uh, of our power that affect positive change for ourselves. If we're using our personal powers, like Jeff's, doing things that are aligned with his needs and values and creating positive impact for me. But as a father, I can't ignore the fact that I, uh, have responsibility. I have power in the lives of my children. And so if I'm using my power and it's negatively impacting them, that's a misuse of power because I have the responsibility to use it better. And so this misuses and right. Uses of power are driven largely by our operating systems, which include things like bias and implicit conditioning and worldviews and mindsets and perspective around it. And I think that that's why I love these conversations is because too often conversations about power and bias, we locate them in the individual. It's like, Jeff, check your power, Jeff, check your bias, Jeff. And we just like. And that's part of the systemic pressure. That's one of the things we've inherited from capitalism is like very individualistic, westernized view versus more of a community, you know, collective impact. So this, that, that tension is there. And I think that you said, you mentioned something earlier about having to sit in the duality of things. And I think that that actually is a skill set for leaders and for humans. Trying to navigate this world is to, like, resist the urge to get binary, to say, right, wrong, yes, this or that, us and them, and being able to hold the duality of, oh, capitalism and ethics, capitalism and the environment, capitalism and community, right? Being able to hold those tensions and polarity, like dance the tension. We talk about that a lot in right. Use of power is this, like, power exists on continuums, right? There's really no rightness or wrongness. It's about being responsive and Adaptive. Because even within parenting, as an example, that's closest to my mind these days because I've got three kids, um, heading into the teenage years. But each of them is an individual. Each of them requires a responsiveness from their mom and I in a way that if I got fixed, if I said it's my way or the highway, right? Like we've all experienced those leaders or those parents or those school teachers, right? And more often than not, that draws us into misusing our power because it's actually becomes about us. Um, and so, I mean, there's a huge conversation here around power. But what I love about our conversations is this like getting it to the level of systems, which is really ultimately about what do we care about and how do we make sense of the world. And if we can have some help in making sense of the world in a way that's less problematic, less reinforcing of colonialism and all the byproducts of it, um, then I think we're on the right track.

Speaker A: I love talking to dads who get it because. And moms, of course, but dads who get it understand the correlation of power from parenting to being a leader in an organization, to leadership in a sports team as a coach. Like, this concept of parenting is something that I've carried with me. Me being a father of four of um, a blended family. I had to learn how to navigate. And it teaches you, right? I think that when, when we have the experience of being a parent, it teaches us that it, that that duality is that two things or three things can be true all at once. And that is a hard concept that I think a lot of leaders, um, have, ah, tried or it's a hard concept for them to wrap their head around or to operate from where they can. They can see an issue and they can say, well, this is true. And that's true too. And even that's true. But how do we navigate all of that as a single entity? Or how do we become. I love how you describe this fluidity where you have to be malleable, you have to be fluid to navigate these challenges because it forces us to think outside of the box, outside of the status quo. And I think that, um, this work that you and I are doing, I believe is truly, uh, all about paradigm shifts. Uh, there is such a power and freedom of the paradigm shift of our own minds when, uh, we confront these challenges. And it's horrifying and it's scary. And I know that for a lot of leaderships they, uh, put people in positions of power, in leadership, they are also conditioned to always have the answer to sound like they have all the solutions, no matter what. And they end up being the byproduct a lot of the issues that the organizations face straight from the top down. And so yeah, so this conversation always gets me super excited because I understand what the, what it looks like on the other side of the fence. Right. Grass is always greener on the other side is such a true statement for me because when we, when we learn better and do better, boy, it's a, it's a freedom that I've never felt before. And it gives me this confidence and ability to operate truly as myself more and the humility to say, oops, yeah, I shouldn't have said that, Oops, I fucked up there. Yeah. And then also just figure out with the best intentions to make the right corrective change. And so I think that that's to wrap everything of what we're doing here. This is kind of the lens that I see it in. And so I, I look at it as journey work like for sure. I think there's, it's a part one, it's a part two conversation, a part three, um, because it does require a lot of handholding and a lot of guidance and bridge building and empathy and humanity and all of these concepts that you just don't find on your day to day culture.

Speaker B: Uh, right, yeah, there's a,

Speaker A: you know,

Speaker B: a systemic pressure probably that we've inherited from capitalism. This hustle culture, this scarcity mindset, this, you know, it shows up in individualistic pursuit of happiness and all of these things, um, you know, success, you know, if we, if we can redefine success at ah, a societal level, I think how much of an impact would that make on all of us and our pursuit of what we believe? And like, you know, I'm with you on the, you know, oftentimes we get called in or there's interest in our trainings or you know, workshops and things and people always kind of want the tactical thing and it's like we're going to get to the tactical thing but we got to talk about our mindset and our beliefs about this thing because that's the thing that's going to get in the way. Right. We can go shopping for tools and new things and so maybe that's a, you know, a conversation to have is like the mindset of the leader in order to make the most effective use, like there has to be a shift there from leader as expert and decision sole decision maker. To leader as facilitator, leader as holder of space, leader as reflective, you know, provider of reflection, like whatever the thing is to, to shift our perspective on leadership. And I come at it often from a leadership perspective because that's the, the work that we're doing, but it kind of shows up in, in lots of ways. Um, yeah, the mindset we bring to the thing is actually more important foundationally than any of the tools and tactical things that we might, uh, we might offer 100%.

Speaker A: You know, I always, I have these conversations and I think that it's not, not to, not to misuse the term ptsd, but when you've experienced something like discrimination, uh, of any capacity through an organization or some injustice that you've gone through, um, to any capacity, uh, and it doesn't have to be even race. It takes me back to the challenges that I faced in the last nine to five that I had. Right. The world's largest credit card company, um, that I was working for down in the south, had Canadian clients, clients from all over the world. Um, the discrimination that I faced was so brutal, but at the time I didn't even realize what kind I was facing. When we talk about implicit biases being so insidious or, um, or bias being insidious, period, um, I didn't even recognize what I was being subject to until years later when I took a step back and I was able to digest and process it all. Not only was I dealing with racism, but I was also dealing with ableism. I have an invisible, um, disability of uh, with uh, dyslexia and adhd, which tremendously impact the way that I think and operate and get motivated and complete tasks and ingest information and read and all of these things where I was being literally insulted day to day by my bosses. Like, what are you stupid? Why don't you get, like, how often does that conversation have. Right where, um, so, so it's an interesting conversation. When I can walk into a, ah, organization. I understand that I also carry privileges of being a man, uh, in this world. I carry my own privileges. I'm also 6 foot tall. I'm scary looking. I understand I'm this big Mexican dude who doesn't seem safe to a lot of people when we're having these conversations. I'm a person of the global majority who carries um, all of these lived experiences. And so I can probably sometimes come off, maybe uncouth or seem hostile to folks who aren't used to my tonality. Uh, so there are a lot of things that I Carry. But I also see because I've also been the byproduct of these hidden biases and these hidden things that we go through. So, uh, I, it's, it's, I just say all that to say that, that there's so much to talk about, these organizations and companies. It's never to excuse the perpetrator, but it's, it's, there's a power in understanding what's happening that allows the person who's being subject to the abuse to understand. I, I am getting what's happening here. I now understand this. And then for the leader to say, oh, crap, okay, I understand where I went wrong on both sides of the aisle. Ultimately, I think my mission is to leave the person, whether the oppressed or the oppressor, with a choice. I, uh, want them to say, I now know I can now choose to do better or I can keep things at the status quo. Whatever you do is whatever you do, but it leaves you with this choice that you've never had before. Do I choose to operate differently with, with the responsibilities that I now carry and this, this now, this newness and this new knowing of what's at play? Um, do I have the choice to, I have the choice now to stay in this toxic work environment as the employee, or I could find another job, but now I can walk away. And I know now that I'm not crazy because I understand what's happening with power. I understand what's happening with bias. I understand that it's, it's not even my boss's fault that he's such a dick. That's just how he was conditioned and this is the society that he's inherited. And the human in me is just going to say, you know what? I'm sorry for you that that's how you rolled. I'm sorry that this is how you only know how to operate. But I get to walk away scot free unscathed from the damage that's being done. And I think for me, that is the key component of the takeaway from doing this work.

Speaker B: I love that focus and intentionality around the empowerment and choice aspect of this conversation. I think too often, and I'm sure I'm guilty of it too, is that you see the change and you start to, like, force the change. And as soon as you get drawn, um, into forcing the change and not giving people options and choice and freedom, you get resistance and pushback. And then you get angry about the wrong thing because now we're angry about the resistance as opposed to angry about the system we're trying to change in the first place. And so we'll start to blame the individuals. And I was on the receiving end of, you know, trying to change a system, like in the healthcare system, where myself and a colleague or two got labeled as the problems. Right? We became the problems, as opposed to the system's issues and the lack of shared mindset. And as soon as you do that, as soon as you start to locate the problem inside of an individual, it's like you've lost half the.

Speaker A: Half the battle.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Because you're the target.

Speaker B: Way to resist change is to make it about an individual and their approach and, and not give them any choice. Right. To. To change. Right. Or start to apply power as force. You know, we often talk about this duality of power and that there's power with heart and compassion, and there's power with strength and force, both of them. If that's the only way you show up, it can be problematic. I've seen problematic uses of power with compassion. Right. And not holding people or systems accountable for anything. It's like, that's not a road to success. In the same power, like, with a big stick is equally problematic, maybe more visible. But, you know, Cedar, Dr. Cedar Barstow, the original author of the Right Use of Power framework, always talks about being, like, power infused with heart. Like, using. Being able to infuse your use of power with some compassion and some heart and infuse, um, power with, like, strength into your heart. Right? And, like, finding that balance, be able to navigate that balance. Um, I think that's the kind of the tension that a lot of us are. Are walking, whether it's in parenting or in organizations. It's, can I do both? Can I be human and show up as a compassionate human? And can I get done? Can I. Can we move some stuff forward? Can we, like, have some accountability, Whatever. Whatever it is. So, um, yeah, anyway, I love that.

Speaker A: No, that, that. It's beautiful, man. I. I'm. I couldn't be more proud of the work that we're doing. And I feel like, uh, what really sets this apart? What sets us apart? I feel. And I don't want to speak for you, but what, what I feel that sets us apart part is, um, that we operate through purpose and passion and for this work. And it's not just, like, get, uh, rich quick scheme. We're not being grifters. Like, this is literally making some real change in the world to open up some perspective. So I just want to say, really, thank you for even Inviting me to this space to have conversations about all of this because, because these are the talks that we're not having, uh, enough of at all or at all.

Speaker B: And so I'm hoping doesn't usually create the space to talk about the system. It's the most opaque, obscure part of our conversations is actually digging into how the system wants us to operate and think and believe and feel. And like all of these things that we've downloaded in our, in our time, this implicit conditioning that you talk about, it shows up in all the spaces. It shows up in our parenting, shows up in our leading shows, uh, up in, in the work we do in community. Um, and likewise, I really appreciate all of these conversations and, and the work that we're doing together, you know, in spaces like this, where we're talking about this work, but also at the upcoming workshop. Again, not to shamelessly plug it, but if you're in the Calgary zone and you're listening to this before June 18th, you should check it out because we've got, uh, a great workshop afternoon of this type of discussion and some practical application of power and justice, AI, um, and equity into nonprofit organizations. So you, um, can check out the links to it, uh, in the show notes for sure. Um, but maybe before we sign off for today, knowing that there will definitely be a round two, um, what's one action the listener can take? So you're thinking about, you know, what's a concrete kind of next action step for someone who's listening to this is like, huh, I'm curious about justice, AI. I'm curious about implicit conditioning and this bias conversation. Um, yeah, what's a good next action step from your end?

Speaker A: For me, uh, thank you for that question. I think for me, honestly, it comes down to the questions that we have to learn to ask ourselves. Is a huge game changer. So what I always ask people to ask themselves and sit with is, what is bias costing you on your day to day? Is it costing you a relationship? Is it costing you a, uh, relationship with your kids? If you're a parent, is it, um, perhaps costing you a relationship, uh, with your parents? Or is it costing you, um, change in the workplace, uh, like bias is costly across the board and it impacts every segment of our life. And so if we have an issue with bias, the question is if it's costing you a lot, what can you do to learn more about it and to do better? Uh, and that is not my pitch to sell, just to say I, by any means, because you don't have to, obviously, um, but it is a tool that's there that if you could afford it, even if you can't afford it, and you can maybe work with a non profit who can raise money for you to have a subscription model. We do that too. Um, there are multiple ways that you can get a hold of this tool. And so uh, for me it's, it's language and it's the ability to ask the right questions is what I'm saying or doing. Does uh, it have power over somebody else? Does it have the ability to impact negatively whoever uh, I'm speaking to or groups of people? Um, and just start there, just start asking questions and asking questions, uh, about their questions. Right now we have AI, we have ChatGPT. You can even ask ChatGPT. Uh, where does my question miss the mark? What am I not asking here? Um, how problematic is my question? Because sometimes it just doesn't tell you. So it's all about self awareness and having the ability to just ask.

Speaker B: I love that focus on questions. We talk about asking powerful questions because questions are an act of power. Whether we're asking them of ourselves or other people, they, they can, they can cause change, they can affect how we view the world, um, and the answers that we seek. You know, um, and so we talk about, we talk about deep listening. And I think that that's right in line with that is to do a little bit more deep listening to yourself and your own experience, but also to the people in your life and how they might be impacted by power.

Speaker A: So, um, deep listening. I love that.

Speaker B: Christian, thank you so much for joining and it's always a pleasure and uh, really looking forward to our workshop coming up but also having you back on the podcast and we'll dig into something else or something related or something we didn't quite get to. So um, lots here to talk about, but gratitude. Thank you for joining.

Speaker A: Much thanks to you buddy. Thank you.

Speaker B: Leaderful is brought to you by the Ally co, a team of human centered systems, conscious consultants, coaches and facilitators dedicated to helping you and your team tackle the core problems of burnout and stuckness and misalignment and misuses of power and all of the things that get in the way of creating truly human centered workplaces where everyone thrives and does their best work. Head over to www.theallico.world to learn more.