Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. John Tarnoff - Executive & Career Transition Coach

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding aq. I am delighted to be back in my studio after recording a mini series, my first mini series live at an event at Transform. And so I'm back here with John, uh, Tarnoff. He is an executive and career transition coach. And John's mid career journey began after being laid off in his 50s. Uh, it prompted a career pivot that led him to DreamWorks Animation, Carnegie Mellon University, and eventually to coaching. He earned a master's degree in psychology, not because he wanted to be a psychologist, but to deepen his understanding of the challenges that professionals face, especially in mid career transitions. So as that executive and mid career transition coach, he helps professionals land better, more meaningful jobs and overcome ageism in the workplace. He's the founder of Mid Career Lab and a LinkedIn learning instructor. With over a quarter of a million learners, he empowers professionals to rediscover their purpose, rebuild confidence, and navigate career change with clarity. So, John, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Great to be here, Ross. Thank you for having me on. And from your description, it's like, who is this guy? How did this all take place?

Speaker B: It is, it is strange, isn't it? We often, um, I've said it many times, you know, we can connect the dots backwards. Uh, when we look at it, when we're looking forwards, we often don't know, you know, we don't know what's coming.

Speaker C: Never know, never know. And I think that's, that's kind of one of the great virtues of age, is that, you know, you can kind of wake up and kind of marvel at the fact that you're still here and that there is a bit of a track record that, uh, that supports the idea that you will be here tomorrow.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I think directly to the idea of adaptability. Right. Age is, I think, one of the great adaptability engines.

Speaker B: Um, it is, you know, to, to exist, to be alive, is to adapt. And I think, uh, just on that, it's a really interesting point, isn't it, around the link between experience, an age and then a wrapping to an identity to that experience. Yes, I am. And yes, you've been through some reinventions. Um, and perhaps just take us on a little bit of a journey of, of how you dealt with some of those identity transitions as well.

Speaker C: John. I, I love that we're starting off with identity because I think it is one of the most crucial Questions? Uh, certainly in my practice and from what I gather in, in the work that you do, it is really pivotal, uh, in understanding this question of how to adapt and how to kind of broaden one's sense of capacity to uh, to, to, to work, to make an impact. So one of the biggest challenges that my clients face over time, but is still largely focused in the same area, it is very hard for these people to shift and to imagine that they could do something different or do something different with the skill set and the experience that they have, uh, acquired. So the mindset around identity is one of the first things that we work on very often in an engagement, uh, with a, with a client. Uh, and I think it's particularly important to focus on this today because with the rapid pace of change and disruption in our global economy and within the career marketplace, people are being just whipsawed in the, in the hiring market and are, um, I think reluctant to focus on their identity as a factor.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's an interesting one. And um, I'd like to understand your ideas and thoughts, John, around the link between the concept of value and identity. Um, and you know, speaking from a personal perspective, you know, my wife is going through a transition at the moment from one way she's provided value in the world, in work. Right. She's been a, uh, financial advisor, she's been regulated for 44 years. Wow. And you know, what the, what is next? And that's been her value. It's been her identity. That's who I am.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And to even imagine or give yourself permission that I have value beyond that, what it might be, what my identity might be from there. And I'm, um, noticing some links between self value and perception of value in the marketplace linking to a past identity. And so I'm curious how you work with that and around the mindset.

Speaker C: Ah, yeah, lots to unpack there. The point that I wanted to make before that I didn't get to, uh, comes up here, which is that ironically, the people with the most success, the most outward success in their careers are often the hardest to change. They cling very, very assiduously to this identity that they have built up. Status, money, position, um, the identification of their success with their accomplishments. Uh, you know, you were kind of ticking off my background and what I've done. And I don't think of myself as particularly, um, Well, I guess I'm accomplished in various ways, but I don't have that kind of corporate titan resume. Uh, you know, founded three ipo, uh, worthy startups. Uh, you know, President's Council on Economic Whatever. Um, people with these backgrounds are very, tend to be very entrenched in, in those backgrounds. And for them anything outside of that arc is a, a loss, a defeat, a uh, humiliation. And it is a really, uh, challenging issue to deal with. Where it all comes down to for me in this, in this, uh, in this kind of conundrum that you're talking about is our willingness to go deeper on that value. You know, you were talking about the fact that your wife has been chartered for 44 years. So you know, in the old days there were three very well established stages, uh, to a career. The first one was education. If you got a good education with whatever your certificate or your credential might have been, that entitled you to work for on average 40 years. And you could essentially dine out on that credential, that college degree, even that high school diploma, whatever, the technical certification, the postdoc, the legal degree, whatever. And that's who you were. And that entitled you to do that career. And you may have picked up little doodads along the way, but that was really basically what you were doing. And then after working for 40 years, you were entitled to retire. You had paid your dues. And now for what was then a very comparatively short period of time in the industrial era, as short as maybe five years, maybe 10 years, you get from 65 to 75, maybe you'd get to 80. You had, and uh, you had earned that right to retire. Well, today that's completely gone, right? That whole model is off. We're living longer, there's more instability. No one's working on the same job for the same amount of time. And most importantly, education is lifelong. We can no longer afford to dine out on that certification that we earned 20, 30, 40 years ago. We have to continually be evolving, changing, adding to those sets of skills and experiences and knowledge and, you know, value in, uh, order to continue. So what's the second stage of career? If, if, uh, or what's the first, second and third stage of career? If, if all that is gone, that model is gone. So I would argue the first stage of career is self knowledge. If you come into the workplace in your 20s, and so, uh, maybe it's a tall order, but I think Gen Z is kind of doing a reasonably good job of this. If you come into the marketplace knowing, okay, here's who I am, here's what I want to do, here's the impact I want to make, here are my values, here's what I will do. Here's what I won't do. Here are my deal breakers and my aspirations. That's a great way to start because it sets you off on a path where you can go into stage two, which is generativity. This is a term that Erik Erickson used in his seven life stages to describe actually the later stage of life before retirement. This idea that once you've figured it all out, then your obligation really as a, uh, individual, as a professional, is to generate value. And this was really supposed to be in your 50s before you retired. The alternative in Ericsson's world to generativity was stagnation. If you are not generating, then you're stagnating. I would argue that this, this extends to our entire career. Spanish Right. And that it is no longer acceptable or viable or valuable to just show up, to just perform the skills, to just deliver the same results over and over and over again because things are changing too rapidly. And then the third stage now is no longer retirement. You don't kind of go away. You don't really want to go away, you can't really afford to go away, but you have an opportunity to give back. So that is the third stage. The third stage is paying it forward, shifting your sense of value not for yourself going forward, but to the rest of the community, looking backward, saying, how can I support the next generation? How can I support what's going on? And the impact I'm making is not going to be from me directly on the world. It's going to be supporting those who are coming up next, those who are, who are building the future after I'm gone. And that's my legacy. And legacy becomes such an important aspect of who you are as you get older. So, you know, back to value. That, I think, is how we have to frame the value conversation today.

Speaker B: And do you think there is, uh, an opportunity perhaps to maybe, if that's considered, okay, these three phases of working life, to have many versions of that on an accelerated pace. So we could go through, okay, I'm, I, I've learned something. I'm now serving and generating value. I'm now sharing and passing that to society in my circle that then I could almost begin again. And I don't have to wait until those age numbers, but I could do that in a more celebratory sense as I go through a portfolio of careers, let's say. So where we might have said, oh, my identity is I am a founder, I am an ifa, I am m. A coach. That actually, that's just the chapter and I can go through those three parts of that and have an entirely new chapter that is me in a different environment, in a different place, in a different area where I'm learning again, I'm generating value again, and then I'm sharing and then I do it again. Is that something that um, you have thought about or have seen in the world?

Speaker C: Absolutely. We can have portfolio based careers today. If we're no longer working in a 40 year career span, we're probably working in a 60 year career span. When all is all said and done and that 60 year career span is no longer going to be this steady climb. It's not this, this, this, this straight line. It's going to have different periods of work, education, meaning based sabbatical, family, caregiving, thoughtfulness, engagement, and there will be infinite variety potentially. Partially because we're living longer, partially because the economy requires us to work in shorter spurts to solve specific problems, and partially because in that spirit of portfolio, we want to build that diversity of experience and applicability of that experience in our unique individual way.

Speaker B: Something else that's been kind of playing with my mind as I've gone through my own journey and observing the people around us.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: That's what we do and reflect and think. Okay, if I'm going through those sessions to as you said, entitle in turn the right, you know, earn the right to xyz a future state, uh, a retirement to those sorts of things to a. I'd rather have peppered moments of what retired feels like throughout my life, not at the end of my life when I'm dribbling and unable to really enjoy it. So this sort of rise of a, a better um, balance of time usage, four day work weeks, for example, and that endless drive to create the freedom that then you're not in a place to really perhaps enjoy that freedom or understand it as could I have little moments of freedom every weekend, uh, in my 40s, in my 50s, in my 60s. Uh, and that's something that again I'm adapting my own thinking to what is the design I'm aiming for in life? What am I adapting myself, the system, the people around me, uh, within that. And I'm, you know, you, you often surround yourself with people who are very similar. You know, they think the same, believe the same. And so you have pockets of little um, versions of values around. For example, how often we work four days. I remember when I first had my startup, I was working more than seven days in seven days. And that was kind of the Way I knew no different. And I challenge myself a little bit at the moment between. I am so committed, I'm so passionate. I absolutely want this to work. I'm committed to making it work. And me working four days, which doesn't generally work as four days. I try to, but there's still others. And not feeling a sense of guilt around that. Um, and I just wondered your thoughts on that before I then go into perhaps these, these areas of what, mid career and what is mid career now and those transition periods, John?

Speaker C: Um, well, first of all, burnout serves no one. And to adhere to the traditional factory model of work is just defeating prosperity and productivity. And I think it's something that we're beginning to understand a little bit better. Uh, ironically, because of the pandemic and the fact that we were all forced to go home and work from home, and now we are in this really crazy controversy or as you might say, controversy around return to the office, return to work. What, what does that mean? Do we mandate a blanket return to the workplace for everyone for maybe it's four days in the uk, it's certainly five days here in the US or do we actually think about each person's role, each team's role? What are they trying to accomplish? What is the best combination of environments that will serve the goals of the individuals, the managers, the teams and the company in the long range, long term, that's the question. And there's no one size fits all to this, uh, issue.

Speaker B: Universal design, right?

Speaker C: And the idea that there is this kind of faceless, uh, uh, kind of, uh, you know, factory oriented, um, uh, almost. I don't mean to be political about it, but communist, you know, idea of everyone in their, in their uniform, you know, showing up to do whatever it is that they do out of some kind of Orwellian, uh, nightmare is ridiculous. You know, we're, we're the, the cat is out of the bag. And um, to pretend otherwise I think is foolish. And I think the companies that are, that are, that are working well are the ones that are much more open to feedback and constructive design work, workplace design, from the people with whom they work, the people that really build their companies for them.

Speaker B: I, I think some of that comes down to choice, right? And the, the intent at which it comes from. If the intent is from. And driven by fear and control and not, uh, tr. You know, lack of trust versus the intent is around connection. And uh, you know, I know several firms who, you know, design it, that they all eat together at lunch, right? And they sit down together and they have lunch all together, you know, and that's their design, that's part of their culture because people were in their isolated cubicles, um, you know, not taking breaks. Now for some that works, others, God, that's so uncomfortable. I, I just want my own quiet space. And so this, this element of, when you talked about Gen Z's, of know thyself, where are my boundaries, what are my non negotiables and what are my values? And um, part of that is the company as well to attract the ones that they want. You know, is it about connection and, and trust? So there can be different reasons around a mandate or a, you know, a desire. But then how it's felt, how it's experienced is individual, is individual for those things.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, you bring up interesting, an interesting ah, point. Um, fear versus trust. Right. And I would say that there is a third apex to that triangle, which is comfort. And one of the questions that I see a lot, uh, in the work that I do with people is, and I see this a lot in the posting that I see on LinkedIn is that there is this, this, this disparity between people who are motivated by fear, uh, whether it is the fear of the employer who is ghosting them on a job application, uh, versus trust, which is in relatively short supply, as you're discussing, which is this sense of uh, support, community, um, possibility and I think in between or somewhere in the triangle. This idea of comfort is important because very often that fear is internally driven and we're afraid to become less comfortable in our lives and take the action that we need to take to turn that fear into trust. In order to do that, in order to turn fear into trust, we have to look inside. We cannot blame the system, um, irresponsible recruiters, bad, um, bosses for our misfortune, we have to act. It may require courage, it will certainly require discomfort. And resilience, I think goes hand to hand, hand in hand with adaptability. If we're going to adapt, we have to cultivate resilience within ourselves to be willing to be uncomfortable, to take the action we need to take to change what's going on in our lives.

Speaker B: Uh, absolutely. And resilience is one of our core sub dimensions that we assess as part of our model. And it makes me think about is it lack of trust, fear? When you talk about that being an internal sense, am I looking for the result, the end outcome, to then change my state or can I change my state, irrelevant of the outcome? Right. So do I need to um, be In a position of trust, to feel trust, do I need to be in a situation of fear to feel fear? And I think the reality is no. And, um, we can create the own narrative, create the own story. So which one is better to live happy and delusional, or, um, you know, at the other extremes where we're so in it. Yes, I should be fearful. Is that helpful? Is it constructive? And I think there's the challenge, isn't there? Between again, identity, labeling it as me versus I am experiencing this and uh, disconnecting me from that. To reflect, to then reimagine, to then recreate.

Speaker C: It's a great question. Couple of things come up for me on this outer experience is a reflection of inner reality. If you are happy on the inside and feel trusting of yourself and your ability to get through whatever it is that you're getting through, you will experience on the outside, people willing to help you, opportunities coming to you, uh, a sense of balance in your day. If your internal reality is chaotic, fearful, you will project that out into the world and everyone you encounter will be a scammer, uh, a toxic experience, whatever that might be. And I think it's really important that we all recognize how that dynamic works and begin with that self reflection, self inquiry to reestablish that trusting, growth, mindset, resilient, adaptable interior so that we can then manifest it on the exterior. And I want to just do a little shout out to my friend Arianna Huffington and her Thrive Global organization, with whom I've worked with, uh, on and off now for the past five or however many years she's been in business. They come up with a, uh, great paradigm around this. In our culture, we tend to think in this idea of do, have and be. If I do the right thing, I'm going to get to have what I want, and that's going to allow me to be the person that I want to be. If I work hard, I'm going to get that promotion and that salary and then I'll be able to be happy and satisfied. Well, it doesn't really work that way, as so many people have discovered. And as people that I work with, uh, uh, Express being 45 to 55, having climbed the ladder, and they're still kind of not sure what they want to do or they're still not feeling happy. In fact, it works the other way around. In fact, you want to start by being who you want to be, which is then going to let you have what you really want to have. And then you'll just be Able to do what you need to do. But it has to start from the inside, right? And if it doesn't start from the inside, you're never going to get it. You're always going to be chasing it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. A beautiful way of, ah, articulating it. And I've, um, just done a fairly extensive deep dive in a couple of quantum mechanics books and quantum physics around a lot of this subject, right? As the science is our modern language to describe many of these things about our frequency, frequency of our cells, about, uh, coherence about our brains and how that then manifests into our lived experience. And uh, Joe Dispenza, um, gave a very interesting analogy that helped me understand this in terms of if you remember the uh, TV when you had an aerial and you'd tune in to find the various TV stations. Now those stations, BBC1, BBC2, whatever they may have been, were out there, but it's fuzzy on the telly. So it exists, but it's not shown on the telly until I tune the dial in, which then I connect with it and I can see the picture, right? So to ourselves, to tune into the frequency that exists. The version of me that has what I want to have, that is being what I'm being. All of those things, they're all out there. The, the abundance, the job, the role, the gig, the promotion and all.

Speaker C: I have to do the tuning.

Speaker B: You, I have to do the tuning. So the, the part of our, um, you know, brain, our control, our body, all of these things, uh, in terms of doing that is part of the practice. Uh, one of his modalities is, you know, meditation. To be able to do that, to allow yourself to experience before the event, you know, the mental rehearsal, all of these things. And we can, we can understand it in a sense of if we've had a traumatic experience, maybe a boss has shouted at us, or we had a traumatic physical experience, you know, a car crash or an accident. When we remember that and think about it, our body doesn't know the difference. We'll get sweaty again, heart will increase, we'll get the stress hormones, all of those things. So to feel joy, to feel gratitude, do I need to be in the situation of it or just think about it? Um, and so the power of our thought and frequency to then live a life through, uh, that lens is an incredible power, right, to have. And I want to link this to your area of transition from what was to what could be. And we've been talking about identity, been talking about value. Another part that you, uh, you know, talk around is our resumes, you know, and often our resume has been, this is my tool, here's my creds. Now open the door for me because I've got my resume now, I should get the next opportunity. And you talk about that. That isn't going to work anymore. So can you tell us a bit more about that, John?

Speaker C: Sure. So the resume is a vestigial device from an earlier era. The resume is a retrospective document. It is a historical document. It does not necessarily tell you, the recruiter, the employer, what you can do in the future. So that's the number one thing I think we have to recognize. The other thing that's important in this equation to understand is that for us to create the future, particularly if we are really focusing on making a, um, significant pivot in our career, whether that is a pivot to a more senior position, whether it is a position to a different company, a different kind of work, is that in order to create the future, we have to reconcile the past. So while your resume may be drafted to reflect the best about you, it does not really reflect the entirety of who you are, what your experience is. And people are justifiably nervous about being grilled in the job interview about the inevitable so called flaws in their resume, the gaps, the short tenure positions, the responsibilities or the achievements in any given, in any given position. And there are all these kind of trick questions that interviewers ask us. Tell me a time when you had difficulty or where you feel you failed or whatever. We have to learn how to talk about our past. And we have to understand that everyone has baggage. But in order to create the future, we have to reconcile our past. Every time we walk into a job interview, a meeting with a client, anything that we're doing going forward, we have to recognize that we have baggage in our lives. Everyone has baggage. In order to create the future, we have to reconcile that baggage, have to reconcile that past. Because otherwise it's going to come into every meeting we have, every job interview, every client meeting, and there will be something about us that makes the other person pause about the deal, the job, whatever. And they'll say, you know, the resume looks good, the experience looks good, we had a good conversation, but there's something about this person. I can't quite put my finger on it. Let's pass. And that's because you're holding something back, whether it is covered in the conversation or not. There's something that is bugging you about you that you're not talking about. And they Know it, they can read it. So you have to be willing to walk into that meeting and whatever comes up about the situation at hand, the job opportunity, your past, your. You have to be completely transparent, enthusiastic, clear, resolved. Life is a set of lessons. Let's take it in that context. We're all human beings. A good employer, good recruiter for a position that you want to do with a company that has integrity, hopefully they still exist, is going to understand that you're not just a set of skills on a piece of paper, that you're a human being and they're going to want you to work within a group of other human beings. So play it at that level. You're there to find the fit. If you're the right fit, great. If you're not, fine. You're going to go on and find a place where you are the right fit. In the interim, because you've been so forthright, transparent and upbeat. Growth mindset. In your job interview, you will have made a friend, and that friend may find a referral for you for the job that you eventually get. So take that growth mindset into every meeting that you have. Make friends. Stop thinking that every meeting is the make or break opportunity to land your next job or whatever it is that you're trying to do, make your next deal. It's part of a process. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and I think it's, you know, to be in a state of peace with self allows us to flow. Right, Allows us to flow and find whatever that new, uh, adventure for us may be, whether it is a job, whether it's a, a new gig, whether it's the project you're working on, the collaboration, the client win, whatever those, those elements are in our life. And I think it's, you know, in a setting like this, this is a conversation and the listeners listening to it can rationalize around the logic of what you've just expressed and discussed in the moment, in the moment of pressure. So we're working with several clients that have been going through massive cuts of their organization as a result of various things that have happened. Uh, in a, you know, last, let's say, few months, thousands and tens of thousands of people have gone from a position that has been their life's work, their career. Um, a lot of these are in,

Speaker C: uh,

Speaker B: specifically United nations agencies, you know, international agencies that are suddenly faced with massive cuts and going, right, we got a, you know, 3,000 gone here, 5,000 gone here, thousands of people. And they're in a state of panic, in a state of crisis, in a State of oh, it is make or break. I have built up baggage of life, lifestyle expectation, family expectation, bills, all of those things. And I, I need, I must, I, uh, have to. And so they go, they're in that state, they're in that state. Rabbit in headlights and in that panic. How do you work with people to deal with that state? When the stakes are high, manifested often by themselves, but also by the decisions of the past, you know, what they've put around them to get into a, uh, how do you aim for a niche value proposition that is beautiful future versus no, I just got to get anything. Just got anything, get anything. John? Um, yeah. In that situation, how do you deal with people who are in there? Because I know many of the listeners will know people who are in that situation. How can we help them?

Speaker C: Really good question. When you are back up against the wall, you have to employ a number of tactics and strategies. The first one is yes, you need a job, you need to scour the marketplace, you need to be very active on applications, you need to go through the front door. That is not a high yielding strategy in any set of circumstances. But you got to do it because there may be something there, it may be short term and that's okay. The next set of strategies involves self reflection about, well, after all of this time, not thinking about really what I do, what do I do? Right. I often work with people who are particularly in mid career generalists. They feel like, oh, I've done all these different things, I've had all these different experiences, uh, I can do pretty much anything you want. What do you want me to do? That's a bad approach.

Speaker B: Thinking that's going to help them um, be more employable. Right. Because I can do everything.

Speaker C: Yeah. Employers want specialists, not generalists. So part of your self reflection process while you're out there looking for a job and applying jobs, etc is to think about what is your specialty. If you look back over the years, what is the one single deliverable or set of deliverables that you love to do, do well, has made an impact, earned you promotions, start there, figure out how to articulate that value, start to angle your resume and LinkedIn profile in that direction. If it's too hard for you to kind of give up all of the other stuff that you can do, put that a little bit on the back burner and emphasize the stuff that you do well. And the third element here is to really begin to rely on your network to build more of a network, to find referrals, to set up informational meetings with new connections to learn more about what they do, how they got to do it. The old adage is, if you ask for a job, people will give you advice, but if you ask for advice, people may just give you a job. So those are some of the ideas that I think are helpful in taking back control over this situation and for people to feel like, okay, I'm not just at the bottom of the barrel here, um, gasping for air while everyone around me is similarly in a panic.

Speaker B: In a panic.

Speaker C: This is a set of things that I can do, schedule my day so that I am, yes, applying for those jobs, but B, doing the self reflection process. And I would encourage people to journal about this, uh, every day, uh, including the panic. Start with the panic of, I'm waking up in the morning, I don't know what I'm going to do. Um, I don't know where the next paycheck is coming from, the bank account is running out. Start there, get that out of the way, you'll feel better. And then start thinking proactively about, well, what can you do, right? What do you want to do? Who are the people that you can turn to? What are the conversations that you can have around this next phase of your life?

Speaker B: And I think the, you know, going from crisis and panic, that hopelessness, to having hope and having confidence is a process. Right? We measure hope as well. Snider's work of, okay, you need a goal. What is that goal? Is it to be able to pay the bill this month, you know, the rent, the pieces? Okay, so I need agency and pathways. So what are my skills and motivation? What is the strategies in order to achieve that? And that goes from a state of hopelessness when I am in panic. I don't know what are my skills? You know, what strategies have I got? Even? What goal is it that I'm trying to get here? You can shift to trying to build that. Have you got any tips when they're in that situation? Sometimes even just reflecting reflects in a spiral of negativity. Uh, you know, I'm, I've applied for all these. I didn't get this. I haven't, you know, hit my, uh, figures this quarter. These clients haven't worked in a state of fear of, oh, everything's going to AI. I used to do all of that. AI is taking my job when they're in a situation that isn't abundant, that is feeling under that pressure. Is there help maybe people like you, coaches, team members around that might be able to see you differently than you See yourself when you're in that potential spiral to help you out.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Winston Churchill said it best. When you're going through hell, keep going. So you have to get up every day when you are at the bottom of this barrel and keep going. And that includes all of the obvious work to apply to a job, but it does also include being active and inquiring and examining opportunities, getting the perspective that you need. Build a cadre of trusted colleagues. Make this your personal board of directors, people you've worked with, people you've worked for, family, friends, schoolmates, whomever. A handful of people whom you can call at 3 in the morning when you're in a panic and they will pick up the phone and talk you off the ceiling. More importantly, they will have some range of experience and an understanding of who you are and a willingness to share their views, give you the perspective. And by the way, you want to be doing the same thing for them. It's a two way street. This is called building a community, right? Your network, all of the people that you've met and worked with over the years, uh, your network could care less. Your network, I like to say your network will stand by and watch you fail, while your community of shared interest and support will step in and help you succeed. So use that community. Build that community. If you're part of a mass layoff and everyone on your floor or division or team or whatever have gotten canned, well, there's the beginning of your community, right? You have a handful of people there who were your best mates. Band together, you know, misery loves company. Sure, absolutely. Get together, talk regularly, meet regularly, share experiences. And don't compete against one another. Compete with one another to find the best opportunities. Because when one of you wins, they will bring the other, uh, the others up with them.

Speaker B: Absolutely right. Yeah.

Speaker C: Success breeds success. So use this process and the best possible way. And your goal every day is to get into more conversations. The more conversations you have with more people in your industry on a wider range of topics around what you could be doing, what they're doing, what's out there. You'll start to get ideas that you never thought about doing. And people will say, you know, you'd be great for this. And you go, what is that? And they explain, you think, oh, that sounds interesting. Yeah, I never thought about that before. Well, how do I get in there? Well, I know someone. Let me, let me, let me, let me connect you. I don't know if they've got a job per se, but they can explain more about this and maybe they will refer you to someone else. So this is the, this is the most active process that you want to be engaged in when you are facing this. This kind of scary conundrum of how do I recover from a layoff.

Speaker B: Yeah, from a layoff. Or it could even be how do I recover from a setback, whatever that sentence might be. You know, you, you talked about being fired a lot in one version of your life.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Fired could be not getting the project that you wanted to work, uh, on, you know, not getting the yes from the bosses to adopt your new way of doing something, the process, the new system. You, you want AI to come in to do this or you don't want this to happen, whatever that setback is. The same applies, right, in terms of to build a community and have those conversations. And conversations can be in a variety of ways, right John? They can be if you're somebody who likes speaking, speak. If you like having conversation via email, social, whatever those things are, be present and be around. I think is really helpful as we come to the sort of final stages. I want to just do justice to another audience. So we've been focusing a lot on the self in the situation. What about the other side that are uh, people in HR that are running organizations, running companies, looking for the person that's been in a, uh, pigeonhole for years that we never knew could do something we need tomorrow rather than okay, well we'll get rid of the people in our uh, uh, let's say uh, call centers because we now need these people versus who are the people in the call centers that I've had as call center people that could now do something that is different? How do I find them? How do I reimagine my thought? If I am doing restructures, if I'm doing organ org design, if I'm not making the mistakes of passing over through ageism and all of these things. If I'm an enlightened human being on the other side that's looking for talent from your perspective, what should my mindset look like? What are the things I'm missing and the mistakes I'm making of not being open to that mid career shift and transition because I'm just blinkered to that. So what do I need to now know?

Speaker C: If you're an enlightened human being and an enlightened manager or you're not just

Speaker B: curious, even just curious?

Speaker C: Well yeah, curiosity is a great place to start. But if you were an enlightened, coming from an enlightened mindset, a curious mindset a growth mindset. As a manager, as a leader, you're not going to make those mistakes. Those mistakes that you're talking about come from living in fear, living in lack of, living in insecurity. And again, outer, outer, uh, outer experience is a reflection of inner reality. If, if your inner reality is fearful and limited, well then everyone around you is going to be fearful and limited. You're going to be looking for people who are motivated by, um, you know, uh, whatever, greed, um, and it often trickles short term thinking, right?

Speaker B: I'm under pressure, so I put the next person under pressure, right? I'm being micromanaged. I might manage the next person.

Speaker C: So I think for, for leaders, the same rules apply. If you're leading through period of great turbulence and volatility and you're unable to apply your inner values to steady that turbulence inside you, well, you're gonna have a hard time on the outside because you're going to be reactive, you're going to be doubtful, you're going to be following whatever the latest advice is that promises to be the solution. And if your company is in trouble, look inside. Don't look to the outside for the solution. Look to the outside for advice, opinions, reflections. Get as many as you possibly can in an organized manner. But rely on your gut, on your values, on your experience, on your sense of what's right, on your sense of where you want to go, your sense of what the reality is and what you might have to change in order to get there. So be courageous about that. Don't act alone. Don't act um, autocratically or, or, or uh, or uh, flippantly reactively and dare to change it up a little bit, right? Dare to open up to different ways of thinking, cultivate your curiosity. I would say that the same three step process that I work on with my individual clients applies on a corporate level. Understand what your superpower is as an organization. What is it that you really do and stand for. Focus on that when you're in periods of volatility and challenge. And then build a community within that organization, an interactive, engaged community where communication goes up and down, where no idea is a bad idea. And then build your brand through expertise and trust by encouraging all voices within the company that have something positive to say to express themselves and use that to further develop goodwill, sales, success.

Speaker B: It's coming back to state management again, isn't it? You know of, even in turbulence, to allow yourself, uh, to be in a state of, you know, compassion, of control, of calm, to show the best version to help in the best way. Uh, and you know, I think also self compassion when it does get the better of you at certain times. Right.

Speaker C: Especially when it gets the better of you. Right.

Speaker B: When it gets the better of you.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. As we come to a close, there's a question, John, I ask, and I've been asking every guest, uh, that was inspired by our first guest and we've mentioned the word Curiosity. It was Dr. Uh, Diane Hamilton who wrote about the curiosity code. And the question is linked around adaptability, it's around learning lots that we've been talking about today. And it's. When was the last time you did something for the first time? And what was it?

Speaker C: Oh, great question. Let's see. Well, it's kind of a small thing and it's not really the first time, but it's the first time in a long, long time that. And just recently I went back to the gym and I got myself a trainer. So beginning of the pandemic, I had a, ah, I had an uh, accident. I fell, had some breaks. Then, uh, I had some other health issues in the, in the, in the subsequent years. And now kind of five years later, I'm finally coming out of it. I used to be very good about fitness and keeping myself in shape and all that. And I did this by myself. I was kind of like, oh, I don't go to the gym. Uh, I don't like the environment, you know, all the people and the machines and all that. And I woke up about really six weeks ago and I thought, you know, I, I gotta, I gotta change that around. I, I'm, I'm not serving myself by working out at home with my dumbbells and my mat and my little bench and all that. It's, it's not, it's just not happening. I need to kind of push myself a little bit. So I went to the local gym and I signed up and they said, oh, uh, you know, you get a free session with a trainer. I thought, uh, okay, I'm just going to do it. Well, turns out this guy is great. We got along immediately and by the end of the first session I thought, oh, I'm signing up for a package and I'm going to keep going. So my daughter calls me up and she says, so, what's new? And I said, well, you're never going to believe this, but I, I went to, um, I'm, I'm going back to the gym. She said, dad, I, I've never seen you go to a gym. She's 32. And I said, well, it's time. So here I am, beautiful, beautiful.

Speaker B: And you know, I'm always fascinated by people's time to think and then what shows up to them in that question, you know, of uh, the real. Oh, it's got to be something big. It's, you know, it's got to be a genuine first too. As I reflect, you know, even if I do something often, am I doing it with the naive minds, the curious minds, the uh, ah, uh, what if it was the first time I was going back to the gym? Well, I'd have a trainer, he'd help me look at what am I doing, how am I doing it? And I think for many of us as we face tomorrow being very different than today and that reality is not a, uh, yesterday's repeated, it's going to shift. There's going to be new tools, there's going to be new things. And to uh, do those low reps by having new eyes, new eyes in our experiences will be a great tool to help us feel, you know, a sense of calm, a sense of comfort in discomfort, uh, in those things. Uh, if people want to get in touch with you, uh, John, to perhaps, uh, uh, they've resonated with something you've been talking about. Maybe they know somebody or themselves are going through that transition and think, you know what? John spoke a lot of sense. This is, uh, you know, I, I really need some help. I'm in a plateau or this has happened for me. How did they get in touch with you, John?

Speaker C: The best place is LinkedIn. I think I'm the only John Tarnoff on LinkedIn. So um, take the spelling on the name, the little window there and, and just search for me on LinkedIn and I will come up and then look at what I've got laid out on my profile there. If that continues to resonate, my story makes sense. Reach out, send me a DM and let's talk.

Speaker B: Beautiful. It's been a real gift and pleasure to get to know you over a couple of calls. We share a lot in common about life, whether that is our lifestyle, gardening, animals, food, view of how we navigate this wonderful blessed world that we're in. I'm truly grateful for your time and sharing it with us and everybody in the audience. John, have a fabulous rest of your day. I know it's just starting for you in LA and a wonderful weekend and I look forward to potentially hanging out in person next term. I'm at in LA and collaborating as we move forward.

Speaker C: John, that'd be great. Ross. Uh, likewise. Uh, everything back at you and we'll, uh, talk soon.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit AQAI IO to gain your personalized rapport across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. AQAI transforming the way people, teams and organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory, and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.