How to Take Control of Your Career: A We Are Futures Roundtable Discussion

Speaker A: It is about being curious about what else is out there and saying yes to things and getting involved in stuff. And sometimes it's about doing something outside of your full time work, if you can.

Speaker B: I made absolutely thousands of mistakes in that time, but it's very cheesy, but it does kind of make you who you are. And actually you learn way more from those mistakes and those risks that you try and take to, uh, either further your career or improve the environment of the workplace that you're working in.

Speaker C: Hello and welcome back to Careers Unwrapped. Now, today we've got a conversation with a bit of a difference. I'm joined by Vic Geary and James Rimmer. Now, these are two colleagues from M, the agency I lead from. We are futures. And aside from both being complete legends to work with, they've also both taken major career switches in their career journeys to be here. And that's really what we're going to explore in this conversation now. Curiosity, careers and changes. So, Vic and James, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thanks, Mark.

Speaker C: So let's just get a little bit of background first of all. Take yourselves right back to school or something. Then, when you were very, very first thinking about what you want to do when you grew up, what was on your mind? What was your dream job when you were a kid?

Speaker A: Mine was to be an actor, specifically a Broadway superstar. So, yes, unfortunately that has not quite panned out. Ah, yeah.

Speaker B: And I mean, I was, well, still am, um, absolutely obsessed with sport. So I either wanted to play football for Portsmouth M Football Club or cricket for England and sadly didn't manage to do either of those things. But I still have those ambitions. Who knows, maybe in the future.

Speaker C: Well, I'm with Juve completely. Acting was what I wanted to do when I was younger, really wanted to, but again, didn't quite pan out that sort of way. Now, just to give a bit of context, the conversation that we're going to have, can I ask you both to explain what your role is now at, uh, we are Futures, what your job title is, what your responsibilities are and sort of day by day, what you actually do. Vic?

Speaker A: Yeah, so my job title is a senior strategist, specializing in careers and early talent. So what that means is I work with a brilliant team, including James. When we have a big brand that wants to really engage with young people, either through schools or just directly to young people, I'm part of the team, um, in half of my role, I'm, um, part of the team that creates the strategy for how we're going to do that. So how are we going to make that happen? How are we going to engage with the right young people? And then part of my job also is as a content writer, so I sometimes actually write the content as well. So that might be writing a script for video or that might be creating a guide for a teacher or it might be creating some exciting resources to use in a school. So it's a kind of a bit of a mixture of strategy and then kind of creating stuff and writing things.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker C: And James?

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. So I'm also a senior strategist at uh, We Are Futures. But I sit both in the education team and the brand team, which means I get lots of exciting work and lots of exciting brands and people to work with. But I'm also the co creation lead at uh, We Are Futures. And it's an interesting word that draws up, uh, all sorts of different stuff. But really I see my main focus at the agency is to involve young people more in our work and also create the right environment which gives them a voice.

Speaker C: James, perhaps give us an example. Bring that to life with a piece of work you've been doing recently.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the pieces of work we've been doing recently with NatWest, who we've been working with now for years, they really want to be a bank for young people. And this is not a plug for NatWest at all. But what I and the team have been helping them do is reach more young people in their work. So test different ideas all the time, bring young people along to actually not just listen and um, be in the environment where we're hearing things, but actually give them an opportunity to shape parts of the program and the bank too. So for me it's not just a tokenistic like hear what they have to say is actually bring them along in the process as well. And this gives them much more of a reason to stay engaged with, with NatWest and the brand. And they get so much more from it. They build their skills and they come out of it feeling really listening heard.

Speaker C: Okay, now I know that both of you have done quite a number of different roles before you ended up at We Are Futures. You've both worked in education, you've both worked in business. Perhaps just give us a bit of a snapshot of the major stages through which your career has developed to date.

Speaker B: Vic?

Speaker A: Yes, mine's been a windy route and I think it is worth just saying that even as it stands right now, I still have what people refer to as a portfolio career. So I work For We Are Futures four days a week and then I have Fridays where I do lots of different stuff because I started off as a teacher and then trained as a careers advisor. And careers is where I really found my niche. That's the thing I'm most passionate about. And that's kind of, kind of one of the things that I bring to We Are Futures. That kind of expertise of working in careers, but that passion for kind of performing, um, that I had right at the beginning where I wanted to just be on a Broadway stage and belt out showstoppers in a spotlight that hasn't really left. So I still kind of do bits of that. So after a performing arts degree I trained as a drama teacher and then in careers. But then I kind of enjoyed helping people sort of find jobs. So I went into recruitment for a bit and kind of worked more in the business side of things, which was really interesting. But kind of business for me without a kind of moral purpose didn't really suit me. I kind of, I really care about people and young people in particular. So that kind of sent me back into education as a careers advisor. And then I kind of moved into leadership, kind of more strategic leadership of careers in schools and colleges. And then I went. I suppose this is something that's kind of people sometimes want to know is about when the big fails come, which is when I moved into senior leadership, which seemed a natural progression but uh, didn't like it. I enjoyed line managing and kind of helping people develop, but I was too far removed from the young people that I'm passionate about helping. So I kind of pivoted back. I don't want to say down because it was the right move for me. Kind of I pivoted back into a more face to face role with young people and then that kind of brought me here. But on the side I still do crazy stuff like leading silent discos around the streets of Manchester on a Saturday because I love performing and I'm lucky enough to found a way to get paid a very small amount but get paid to do that, which is nice. So that's my windy route.

Speaker C: It's certainly windy, but I think there's a common theme during a lot of that and that you've been constantly finding out more about what you like and what excites you, but also along the way trying some things and going. Actually I thought I would want to do that and like that. But I'm now missing some of the things I like more. And so James, from your perspective, where is your windiness Taken you.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks, Blake. I'm not as old as you guys, so I might not have had as many, uh, different experiences. Sorry. But I've certainly had plenty. I actually sat down last night and tried to work out how many different workplaces I've worked in and between the ages of 16 and 22. So when I was in sig form, my gap year, and then university, I worked in over, uh, 20 different workplaces in that time. And I think a lot of this was just. I needed money and wanted money. But I also was really curious and excited to just get out and do lots of things. I signed up to agencies and I was just keen to get out and go into random places. So m in sick form. I was a delivery driver for my local Chinese. I worked at river island over Christmas as head of shoes. I did loads of other kind of random stuff. I worked in farmer's fields, I worked in a cardboard box factory packing stuff. And I'm behind a bar and a yacht club. Honestly, all these random things. But it taught me so much about different careers, where people had come from, different people's stories. And I loved it. And I think from that, uh, I developed, like, a real love for people. And that combined with my love for sports. How about university? Try to make it as a cricketer. Couldn't do that. And then I thought, where can I go? So I thought, I really want to inspire the next generation. And became a PE teacher. So did that for seven years. And even within that role, I kind of. I was Head of Cricket in my first year and did loads of stuff. There was a PE teacher and then thought, what else can I do? So I tried to do loads of other stuff. Ended up being head of Marketing Communications at that school. School. And the journey just kind of developed from me just trying new ways to push myself and trying different things and trying to connect with different people. And then Covid was big for me. It gave me an opportunity to step back. I did a marketing qualification then I thought that actually teaching wasn't right for me at that time. So I stepped away from that, uh, and found a really exciting job and youth voice and participation for a very small consultancy. But we did loads of great work with young people. And from then, after a couple of years, I found this job at We Are Futures and the Rest Is History.

Speaker C: And for both of you there, with so much change that's gone on, how much of that change has been consciously decided and how much of it do you think has been more of a. Just a natural evolution of both Circumstances and opportunity.

Speaker A: That's an interesting question. I think in the early years for me, I think a lot of things were down to kind of situations, circumstances where I happened to be living, things that opportunities just kind of came up that I tried out, kind of just being curious and saying yes to things that seemed a bit interesting. I think particularly at that point where I didn't really have any ties. I could go anywhere, do anything. I used to commute from Manchester to London weekly and lived in a hotel. In the days when big corporates have budget for things like that, I could say yes to stuff and just be spontaneous. But actually as particularly once I became a mum, I had commitments I needed to be a bit more strategic. And actually then I was quite an experienced career development professional at that point, so I practiced what I preached. So from that point, all my career pivots and career moves have all been very deliberate and have all been because I wanted to achieve something or because something was missing or very often because I wasn't happy. Um, I kind of refuse to stay doing something that's not making me happy, that's not fulfilling, that doesn't feel right for me because life's too short for that. I realized that's quite a privileged position to come from.

Speaker C: And what about yourself, James?

Speaker B: It's an interesting one. I think certainly while I was at school, for me I took opportunities and took different roles and did stuff because the school required it. It wasn't actually to do with my own career development. It was genuinely like, there's no provision for cricket. There's loads of appetite and loads of young people that, that want to do it and are passionate. No one else is going to do it. Why don't I do it? And it kind of developed that way at school, but I think after that it was really thinking about what I wanted. And when I look back over my career, what kind of impact do I want to make? What are some of the opportunities and things that I want to, uh, have done? And I've talked about, you know, over that time and it might sound maybe a little bit selfish compared to where I was, but actually it was actually kind of asking those questions about myself and where I wanted to go that then led to those kind of further changes down the line.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, this balance between how deliberately planned your career is and how opportunistic. I mean, my own career has bounced around a fair bit and I was with my brother, the first of our family to ever have gone to university. So it was A conscious choice to do that, but not knowing what would come afterwards. I then, um, joined the army, which was really very random as far as my family, friends, as far as I thought, but yet it was conscious. When I saw that seemed like a good idea, it was conscious to leave it, but not knowing what I was going to do next. And through further stages, world challenged, leading expeditions in mountain jungles in South America and then doing a digital startup, setting up national schools partnership. We have futures. Each of those things were very conscious, but I didn't think about them when I was in the role before. It wasn't as if there was a path or a journey I was going on. And um, I'm just interested to bring it back, Vic, to what you said about how a lot of your choices became very, uh, deliberate and you practiced what you preach because you are of course a career professional. You advise people in organizations in this area. So if somebody listening is perhaps in their first or second job in their career, early 20s, and they're thinking, I don't know what I want, but it's not what I'm doing now, what is the advice you give to them on the steps that they should take to help them make the right decisions next?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, obviously it depends very much on the individual circumstances and whether people are able to go and do a full time qualification, you know, go back to university or do a full time technical training course. For most people that's not feasible, but very often it's about a phased transition and trying things out. So just like for James, he kind of ended up doing a marketing qualification because the school needed somebody to do some marketing. So he had a go, found that he quite liked it and then got a qualification in it. So very often it's possible, particularly if you're in a larger company, it's possible to try and get yourself involved in projects within a different team maybe, or just a project where you can kind of get exposure to people who are doing different jobs without actually taking the risk of leaving secure employment. If you're not able to do that, which obviously most people can't, it is about being curious about what else is out there and saying yes to things and getting involved in stuff. And sometimes it's about doing something outside of your full time work. If you can drop a day so that you could do a qualification or that you can volunteer somewhere or even do that at weekends just to kind of try out some different ideas before you kind of look to make a move. And also facilitating those moves much easier because you don't have to have paid work experience in the thing that you want to move to. You just need to be able to show that it's not something you've just woken up today and applied for this random new job. It's like if you can show that you've been taking steps to build your interest and that it's a deliberate move, you can put that in a job application. Doesn't have to be a paid job. So you can kind of facilitate a gradual transition with a bit of effort by being curious and looking for those opportunities and taking them up.

Speaker C: And, James, with the changes that you've made and being able now to look back on how you planned them, how you made those changes, not asking about whether you'd have done a different job, but is there anything you might have done differently in the approach you took to making changes in your career?

Speaker B: It's tough, isn't it? Because I think if I had a time machine and I was transported back to that period, there's definitely changes that

Speaker C: I would have made.

Speaker B: I made absolutely thousands of mistakes in that time, but it's very cheesy. But it does kind of make you who you are. And actually, you learn way more from those mistakes and those risks that you try and take to, uh, either further your career or improve the environment of the workplace that you're working in at the time. So I'm going to say, Mark, no, there's not many things that I would change. Why not? I think one thing that I'm really pleased that I did, that maybe I could have done a little bit more, is just every day keep asking questions and try and knock on those doors. So try and speak to people that you admire or look up to a little bit more. I think I probably could have been a little bit better at, uh, reaching out and making connections, going for coffees with people, all that type of stuff is scary. And I always tell young people, no doubt VIP does, to try and do this if you can, but it makes such a difference because you develop those relationships and it could lead to so many great opportunities.

Speaker C: You've both mentioned the word curious or, uh, curiosity in the conversation so far. I'm curious to know what, in your mind now, still want to learn or to know or to answer to help your future career. So what are you curious about now when it comes to where your career is going to go in the future?

Speaker A: I think the work that I'm doing now I'm really enjoying. But obviously working in a, uh, social impact agency, working in the kind of advertising sector, it's something that's new to me and I just kind of want to get better at that, more knowledgeable about that so that I can do an even better job. So that definitely, um, for me, something that's really important to me and is increasingly so is how passionate I am about young people and their futures and making sure that everyone, regardless of background, is able to have a fulfilling future. And so for me, eventually I do want to be in a position where I can influence kind of national policy. That's kind of, that's kind of a bit of an ultimate goal for me. And also on the bucket list, I want to do a TED Talk. So, you know, if anyone's listening from ted, that's definitely something that I'd like to do. It's a little bit of a bucket list ambition. Um, but for me, eventually being able to have big influence to really make education work for every child.

Speaker C: So just expanding on that and I'm going to ask a question which actually we should really sit down for several days to discuss and answer to. But there are many things that need to be addressed in terms of how young people are prepared for careers and career options. But if there's one relatively quick fix that you think a government or schools or education system in general should do, what's one thing you think should and could be put in place to help better prepare people?

Speaker A: I've, uh, got two. One of them is, is really starting early. So there's a primary pilot that's happened which is great, but I think that just needs to be rolled out so that it's just an expectation that talking about careers and futures and how to be a, uh, grown up kind of starts really, really early as soon as kids start school. The other one actually I think is something that is doable quite quickly. And I think careers education should be part of teacher training for every teacher because then it would not be seen as an add on and all teachers of all subjects would see the fact that teaching kids the reason why they're learning this bit of whatever it is in whatever subject, like why they're learning it, what relevance it has in the future to them, and how it kind of relates to the real world of work and skills and stuff. So yeah, I think if teachers really knew that right from the off of becoming a teacher, uh, I think it would help a lot.

Speaker C: And um, from the starting earlier piece, how do you get the balance right between undoubtedly the more awareness that they build, the younger they are, the better position they're going to be in as opposed to the flip side that is why not just let them be kids and just relax and play and not have to start thinking about careers while they're still in primary school.

Speaker A: I think that's really common misconception. I'm glad that you brought that up. Careers education in primary definitely isn't about making them pick a thing. It's not even about them specifically at all. It's about awareness. It's about the fact that there are uh, jobs that are not just the things that they see. So it's not about connecting that dot to hi, you're four. One day you'll need to get a job. Because I completely agree with you that no, that's not an appropriate conversation to be having with a four year old. It's about, hey, did you know that some people like go to space and that's their job. And it's not because very often you find that, especially when you talk to a child who's maybe 10, 11, very often they'll tell you that they want to be a doctor, nurse, teacher, uh, pilot, firefighter, or work in a shop or whatever their parents do.

Speaker B: Or an actor.

Speaker C: Or a cricketer.

Speaker A: Or an actor. Or a cricketer, uh, something they've seen on telly. When CSI was big, everyone wanted to be a forensic psychologist. But you can't be what you can't see. So for me, the purpose of careers education starting early is giving us as much time as possible to show them all the things, show them all the possibilities and then it's for much later on to go, hey, you know all those things we told you about, you could pick one of those.

Speaker C: And James, in relation to, well, your clear statement earlier, you view yourself to be much younger than Vic and I, but where's your curiosity now about your future career and what you still want to learn and understand or build knowledge about? What are you curious about now that might help your career in the future?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean if you could tell me what I'm going to be doing, that would be fantastic. The unknown is sometimes quite scary and I know it is for uh, loads of young people, but me talking now and saying, okay, well I know young people, I've worked with them, all that kind of thing. I recognize that second by second, day by day, I'm actually moving away from that age. So for me it's how to still connect with that age group the older I get. And I think the important part of that for me is being able to bring people in from a younger age. But actually sit with that demographic and trust a team of people to be able to connect with that age and train and mentor and support. So for me in my career, I want to be as empowering as possible and give as much agency as possible to other people. Which sounds kind of counterproductive, uh, for my own career, but I think in doing so I will learn loads of tools to kind of lead, I suppose, movements just how Vix talked about. I want to be incredibly ambitious, both for myself and for the agency too. And I think I would love to have looked back and have done something which affected tons of young people in a really positive way. And to be honest, Mark, I don't know what that is right now, but I know that through the lessons I've learned, like asking questions, turning up every day, giving my all, speaking to people, being curious, making mistakes that hopefully I'll get there. And, um, it's all right. If I had loads of fun along the way, then so be it.

Speaker C: Both of you, in talking about what you're curious about then, are also actually starting to talk about your ambitions as well. And I find it interesting to reflect on some of the things that your ambitions might need in order to achieve them. Because, for example, James, when you're talking about areas to do with empowering and others, and I'm hearing you talk about wanting to still develop further, uh, your skills as a leader, your skills as a manager, and how you can use and develop those to get others, and Vic, and what you're talking about changing government policy, then obviously the skills to do that are not just a lot of knowledge and based evidence building, but also a lot in there of, uh, politicking and influencing and networking and all of those. And so it makes me think of what you said earlier about a phase transition, Vic, that if you can start to articulate not necessarily the job you want to do, but the things you want to achieve or feel in your work, it helps you start to articulate. Therefore, I'm going to need to be better at this or I'm going to need to know this. And if you can start to articulate that, you can start to do something about it. And I think that's one of the things I found a lot of during all the interviews we've been doing through Careers Unwrapped, um, is how people's careers have been building blocks. And some of those building blocks are quite unconsciously put in place and others much more consciously focused upon. And those people who've tended to be more successful in achieving what they wanted to do however they define that success, the ones who've more consciously put those building blocks in place have had a better chance of getting there or getting there faster. And actually you mentioned also about going back in the time machine. So if you could do that and you go and meet 17 year old Vic and 17 year old James in a career perspective, Vic, what might you say to young self do more of this and do less of that?

Speaker A: I'm not sure. There's things that I would say to do more or less of. I would definitely say to worry a uh, lot less about having a plan and to not be afraid of failing or of things not being what you expected them to be because you will definitely fail at something and things will definitely not always be how you expect them to be. So I would probably try and prepare my younger self for the fact that that's what the world is like and that's okay. And taking a pause or changing your mind is all right and is normal because we're meant to grow and change. We're not supposed to stay the same. But it's kind of, that's why career development professionals work with people all the way through their careers. It's not. You don't just have one careers meeting when you're 14 and then that's it. It's a lot of the work that I did and do with that sort of age group is starting with reassuring them that today you do not need to pick your career forever. You only ever need to know what you're going to do next. You can go your whole career that way. It's fine to just know what's next and uh, that's it.

Speaker C: What do you think James? To your younger self, to the. Well James, you're not so keen on meeting for some reason.

Speaker B: I would say first of all, this is definitely a shout out for my mum because she's great but definitely be a bit kinder to her. She'll appreciate that. But I used to be a sit form tutor as one of my many school roles and I think it's really interesting what Vic said there about kind of the stress of needing to know exactly where you want to go to university or what apprenticeship or what, you know, like you need to have everything figured out of course by the time you're 16, 17, 18 and to be honest, I still haven't figured everything out right now. And the older I get, the more questions I ask about everything. No doubt both of you are the same. So I would say like Vic, just take a breath. It's okay. And if you had to follow what you're really good at or what you love, I would say every time I used to say this to my students, just follow what you love doing because you're more likely to stay in that, uh, due to, uh, passion and motivation and drive. So I would just encourage, I think I would literally pat me on the shoulder and go, you're doing all right, James. Keep going and keep following what you love and you're passionate about.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think I agree with so much that, especially the piece. And again, it's so much easier to say this when you're well into a career. Don't worry so much. But for some people, especially some young people who perhaps don't have around them, um, the communities or the parents to show how many different things they could do, that worry is very, very real. And I think that if you focus too much on the worry, rather than that, okay, let's just take some steps. It can really cripple some people and their approach to a career. Overall, my own thing I wish I'd probably say to my 70 year old, do more of is speak to more people. I think if I had either the motivation or the courage to speak to more people, you find that many of them will speak to you. If you ask them for a conversation, then so many people will just say yes. And then you can learn and you can make a connection. And it may not be them who gives you your first opportunity, but it may be the person who's introduced to you by the person they introduce you to. So somewhere out there is that really important person. And that just brings me onto another area around mentoring and people and from your own perspectives. First of all, are there particular people in working environments who have been really important to you in the way that they maybe dealt with you as a leader or their advice that they gave you, or long term mentoring or coaching?

Speaker A: Yeah, I've had some really, really good managers. I, uh, had one who's sadly no longer with us, who was. I was his executive assistant when I was working in recruitment and he just saw something in me as a graduate, uh, trainee and he just started creating projects for me to do, which gave me exposure to managing directors across cause he was coo. He kind of gave me exposure to senior people to allow me to be able to show my skills to other people in the business. When he'd really kind of big me up and give me opportunities to shine, he kind of really got me and kind of propelled me through the business. And it was a Very, very difficult day when I had to go and hand in my resignation letter to him. Because, James, in those days you had to write a physical letter and take it to the person in an envelope. So when I did hand in my resignation to him, it was really difficult because I'd realized that that type of business wasn't right for me. But I was so grateful to him and I learned so much from him. And I know that he wanted to push me through the business and help me to really succeed. And I felt like I was betraying him when I did that. But he was hugely supportive and he said, ah, uh, I wondered how long it would be before you decided that you had to go and hug some trees. Because I was going back into education, taking a pay cut, going back into working with young people because that was my passion. And, um. But he saw that and yeah, so he was a real advocate and he was the person who really taught me about the value of networking. And that's something that I've carried through my whole career and something that my colleagues benefit from frequently because I usually know somebody who can help with whatever query it might be. So that was a really pivotal one.

Speaker C: M. And, um, James.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting actually. I mean, when I first started teaching, I don't want to get anyone into trouble. I didn't have a mentor or that much support from above for the first kind of four or five years of doing that. And actually through my career, shout out to the some managers and people who were in that position that actually didn't give me the support I needed. Which is slightly controversial because actually from that I was able to learn tons of lessons about maybe how not to do it. But I have also had some brilliant bosses, some brilliant line managers, and some brilliant support. And it is invaluable when you know that I think there's just more space to lean into and go for it when you know that that person is going to back you no matter what because they've hired you and they believe in you to do the job that they've hired you to do. I think there's something really interesting in relation to the dynamic between young people and mentorship. Like you mentioned there, Mark, about speaking to more people. I think Vic, and well, I think we probably all speak from experience of a young person now came up to me and want to sit down and ask me questions about my own career or have a coffee with me, I would go, you know, absolutely want to set that up. But I think sometimes there's a nervousness to want to do that. And I just want to, you know, all the young people that are listening want to give it a go. I really encourage them, even just one person this week, go and give it a try. Guarantee that most of them say yes, but if they say no, what have you got to lose? You just, it's fine, you just go back to stuff. So yeah, any young people want to come find me, I'm very keen to have a chat with them and talk to them about what they want to do.

Speaker C: James I think it's been a huge interesting conversation. I could go on and on about this, but what I'm struck by is how the three of us have all ended up through very different career journeys, actually all working together at the same place. And there are some shared passions about making a positive impact, particularly on young people, and how businesses and education can of help do that. But the roots that brought us all here are very different. But there are some, also some consistencies in careers that are changing quite a lot. All of us have spoken about how important it is to meet people or to network and networking sounds sometimes a bit scary in corporate and it really means just talk to people. Most people will be very helpful and even the ones that aren't, um, will probably just say no and you won't lose anything from it. Also out of this about how extremely rare it is to have a career forever and so not to worry too much about the whole career. But okay, what's the first step I'm going to take that I think might interest me? I might learn from a work with good people because you are going to

Speaker B: grow, you are going to develop, you

Speaker C: are going to fail and make mistakes on that journey as well. We also discussed the difference between things being deliberate and by chance and the mix of all of that. And Vic Youtik spoke about a phased transition when you are changing or altering a, uh, career pathway rather than necessarily taking a massive change, and how you can gain experience while you're in your current job, how you can gain qualifications while you're in your current job and how you can put in place building blocks. And the more consciously you do that, the more likely you are to get to where you want to and to get there in the sort of time that you want to. But I think if anyone's listening this, who is whose early stage of their careers, there is a common message there that you can take control, you can make changes towards what you want to do and away from what you don't want to do. And if you do that consciously. You're going to achieve some great things. And good luck to you. So, James, Vic, thank you so much for unwrapping your careers with me today. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. I've absolutely loved it.

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