703: 110.00 Viral Doshi on Careers, College choices, AI and on adopting the Rolex Approach to his journey

Speaker A: Solve large, intractable problems. It's a new venture altogether. Your brain is a wild horse there.

Speaker B: Because remember, writing is not a team sport.

Speaker A: You are not selling horse carriages when there are cars.

Speaker B: I want to be known only as the trusted advisor. More like a tourist Play to Potential Podcast.

Speaker A: Back in 2016, after a few years at McKinsey and Igon Zender, when I set up my coaching practice, I decided to focus on a niche, and I picked Transitions as an area to focus. As a search consultant at Agon Zender, uh, I felt every candidate conversation was a career transition conversation, and every client conversation was a leadership transition conversation. And I felt over the years I had a window seat to Transitions. And I also felt transitions were those passages of play where problems are complex, people are lonely, and stakes are high. And just like businesses are solving where to play, how to win, leaders are solving where to go and how to grow as they go about their journeys. And I felt I could help in the where to go problem as people walk the path. Recently, when I completed 10 years of my practice, I caught up with some of my friends and mentors and tried to understand how I should think about my journey as I look ahead. And a couple of them from very different sources told me that my benchmark and role model should be Viral Doshi. I was surprised to hear this from them, uh, because Viral Doshi operates in a very different segment. He works with people in their 10th, 11th, 12th standard and helps them with directional choices around education and helps children get into top colleges around the world. And he's been practicing for the last, uh, 20 years, 22 years to be precise. And he's counseled thousands of children. To put it in perspective, one of the first few people he counseled was Fareed Zakaria, who's now a reputed journalist in CNN in the US over the last couple of decades, there's been a boom in the educational counseling market, and there have been many players who've come in and established organizations of scale. But amidst all this, what's fascinating is Viral has chosen to be a Rolex and not a Swatch and go after scale. He's chosen to be a surgeon and not build a hospital in the way he's gone about servicing the need. And that, to me, was very inspiring because in a way, it was in line with how I think about my journey. I'm really excited to bring this next conversation of the play to Potential Podcast to you. With Viral Doshi. In this conversation, we explore how he transitioned from a world of making super alloys to Counseling children about their careers and colleges. Very different spaces. We talk about how to play the long game and how to think about excellence and relevance. We talk about the link between education and careers and how we he thinks about it, given that he's counseled more than 25,000 students over the years. Without further ado, let's listen and learn from Viral Doshi. Viral, thank you so much for taking the time and for, uh, coming on the plate, a potential podcast. Real honor to be spending time with you.

Speaker B: My pleasure.

Speaker A: I've heard so much about you, and, uh, you know, the legend of Viral Doshi is sort of, uh, well known across the country, but it's wonderful to sort of understand, uh, your journey. I think you've helped, uh, many people on that journey, but, uh, this one's a little more about your views on your journey and maybe your reflections on where careers are headed. Um, actually, uh, maybe a good place to start. Viral could be going back in time. If you could talk a little bit about your formative years. Um, what shaped you. If you looked at your first 15, 20 years and look at who you are now, how much of who you are now got shaped in what ways in those years?

Speaker B: I think let's go back into history. Um, did my schooling at Kathila. I was showing you that coffee table book, which I had published in 2010. Finished, uh, my ISC way back in 1975. That time, we didn't have any international curriculums at all. Indian curriculum either do isc, CBSE or ssc.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: That was the last batch of isc. Uh, previous to that, we had the Senior Cambridge in India. We became the ISC, and we finished in 1975. At that time, my father felt, look, here, you've done the isc. Why don't you get some exposure to England? So I did my A levels in England. At that time, when your father was an engineer, you had no other choice but to become an engineer, because there was no other choice available to you. So I did physics, chemistry, maths, A levels. And at that point of time, inflection, um, was, what should I do? Should I stay back in England? Go to America? My father had studied in America. I said, yes, you want to study in England, because when you go to England to study, your teachers more or less brainwash you to stay back in England to do your university. So, you know, you come to America, you'll see that it's a great choice to be. Went off to America, went to Cornell. Uh, uh, did my undergraduate degree in engineering, um, and sometimes I ask myself why did I do engineering? Could I have done psychology? Could have done education. But I guess that time you had no opportunities in these areas and your father would have told you, what do you do after that? So it came down to engineering. Had a lovely time at Cornell. Uh, after Cornell, obviously you had the bug of getting into finance because in those days in America the two things which were popular after graduation was consulting or go into finance. Yes. So I had a little bit of a, uh, experience in finance working with Manufacturers Hanover Trust bank which doesn't exist anymore. Chase has bought it out, worked there for two years, but always wanted to come back to India. So came back to India in the mid-80s and at that time if you really, if you go back into history for any engineer, one thing he would love to do is to set up his own small scale unit. Yeah. So my father being engineer, me being engineer. So if I set up a super alloys plant, the mid-80s, uh, sometime mid-80s, late-80s, making super alloys. These are cobalt and nickel alloys.

Speaker A: And the customers for this would be.

Speaker B: Customers would be people uh, you know, who want corrosion resistant electrodes. You want uh, uh, uh, like big companies, steel making companies who require uh, corrosion resistance for uh, all the basically nickel and cobalt alloys are corrosion resistant. So basically anybody who's making pumps, who's making ah, products which are, which have high corrosion, they would use cobalt and nickel alloys. Started the company way in late 80s, uh, had a great run for seven, eight years. Then with the competition from China, uh, imports coming in a big way, we started making losses. And um, one fine day around late, around late mid-90s, late-90s, we decided to close down the plant because they're making huge losses. Uh, and we decided so that then if I go back, go back in the 80s. When I did come back in the mid-80s, I used to help a lot of my friends, French children with um, you know, they wanted to talk about careers. It was just a passion which I had. And especially that time when you were applying abroad, you didn't have opportunity to go to the Internet and find out. It was going to usis, going through the books and finding out which college to apply to, how to apply. Very antiquated.

Speaker A: Much more friction, huh?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's the time I was helping a lot of people just deciding on career paths and going abroad as a matter of fact. Very proud to say that one of the first students I sent was Fareed Zakaria, who is now a TV anchor at uh, cnn. And uh, so I should do this As a hobby. And when we shut up the plant, I started thinking, now, uh, what do I really want to do? And I felt, um, my passion lay with helping children. And I saw in India it was just sending children abroad so nobody to mentor them. So what I wanted to do was something very different. Of course, going abroad wasn't part of the whole story is to mentor young minds about career. Career path. People are so confused what career paths to follow. I saw my confusion, as if I couldn't do something, let me help other children. So around, uh, early two, because we shut down our plant in 1998, it took me four or five years to wind up everything because you know how it is in India. And around 2004 I took a change and pivoted into something which I was passionate about was helping children. So it all started around 2004. It's been now more than 22 years. Wow. Um, guiding children, helping children. So we started initially doing career guidance. What we do with children is we do. Yeah. We make them undertake a psychometric test where we analyze a child's strengths and weaknesses, interest and aptitude. Typically we start this in grade 9, 10. And based on the psychometric test, we're able to plan out career maps, what they can do after grade 12. Then we map out a career map for a child for four years in high school and then help them with the college applications. But one thing led to another. Then when they entered college, they wanted me help with the postgraduate studies. So I virtually became a life mentor to these children. Uh, that they started with me at 18 and they would be with me till 24. And after that also they would keep in touch with me, of course. As a matter of fact, I'm so proud that I'm helping their children now to go to colleges and look at career paths. And uh, over the years we grew, uh, I think we were able to, um, um, uh, piggyback on the growth in Indian education. And uh, from doing psychometric testing, doing college applications, we ventured into helping schools and colleges with, uh, setting up career counseling units, giving talks all over the country to people, uh, on careers and uh, career planning. And eventually one thing led to another and now we have offices in Singapore. We have offices in Dubai, London and New York. So I spend one week every month in these countries. Gives me a good perspective what's happening in the world market around me. Wow. It's been a very exciting journey and I think I've been very lucky that not very many people have a chance to convert into a second career and my passion became a profession. This the chance I guess you get once in a lifetime. I'm lucky to have had that. And I've been able to rise the wave in India because the rising affluency education has become a big thing in India, as you know. Yeah. So I've been very fortunate. I've been very happy. I think m. It really gives me happiness to see what I'm, what I have done and what I've been able to do. I think that's a joy which you get in this business.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And, and I'm sure deeply fulfilling in a way, such a pivotal role in setting people up for success.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: That the gratitude they would have, I'm sure is so.

Speaker B: It's amazing when people ask me what gives you satisfaction? I say when I meet somebody in a, uh, movie theater and you say, oh, thank you so much. I've become this because thanks to your guidance just makes you feel so happy. Or you have a younger sibling who's come to me because the elder sibling was so happy makes you very happy. So I think that satisfaction of taking the small buds and making them grow into what they are today, the tremendous sense of satisfaction.

Speaker A: If I could, um, viral take you back to that moment. In this podcast, we are curious about three themes. One is leadership, the other is transitions and third is careers and journeys. Uh, going back to the transition when you shut down the unit. And uh, 2004, you said you started this, let's say 2003, 2002, as you were thinking of pathways, what were some of the pathways you briefly considered but did not pursue before you? Because with hindsight it looks like an obvious choice, but at that time it's a non trivial shift of direction.

Speaker B: You, you know, honestly, manufacturing in those years was quite challenging. You m always wonder whether government was supporting you or they were against you. Because I counted one point of time when we were doing manufacturing, we had close to 16 inspectors used to come to the 16 inspectors from income tax inspector, excise inspector, water inspector, power inspector. And it's just becoming too much. That's why at the end of the day I said I don't want to be in manufacturing at all. If I would do something, I would do something in the service industry. So I don't think I've even considered doing it something else. But if I had to relive my, my life today, um, if I had to go back, I would love to be a headmaster of a boarding school in India. I would say working with children, nurturing them, that would be my passion, which I would love to fulfill. If I could relive my life and do something and do an education, I would have done that if I hadn't gone into manufacturing. But that point of time when that did happen, in 2019, when we closed down, you were so bogged down with all clearances for your company to be sort of closed down, that one never thought of anything else but something which you were already doing as a hobby. And then everybody told me, why did you take it as a profession? So one never thought about doing something else altogether. This was working so well. I was doing it as a hobby, so why not doing it as a profession?

Speaker A: M and maybe you're staying with that alternate pathway and you've laid out a very specific pathway. Headmaster of a boarding school. What is it about that that appeal

Speaker B: to you or appeal to. One of my favorite movies is goodbye Mr. Chips. Mhm. So one of it's a classic about a British headmaster, British boarding school, and how we nurtured children year after year for over like 60 years. And that was always my role model that one day I would like to nurture children. I got it indirectly. I didn't get it by being in a school. I got it by nurturing children in my profession. And today I've seen my second generation children coming from those children I helped, they have got married, they have children now, they're coming back to me. That's a tremendous sense of satisfaction I've helped generation after generation. And what happens in my business if one family comes, all allied families come. Of course, if somebody comes from icici, all the other colleagues come from icici. So that gives you a tremendous sense of satisfaction and a joy. So, um, so when a lot of my friends were in the finance world, they were kings in the finance world. I said, that's not something which I'm passionate about. Let me stick to what my passion is. My passion is children. My passion is mentoring them. And there was nobody doing it. Think of it. When you were in school or college, who was mentoring you? You either had some professor or you had some uncle aunt who will come and tell you, do this, do that, or your father will tell you. So I think let's. I wanted to professionalize it. So I think the whole business of counseling this country was more of a mom and pop shop.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I feel I have played a little bit of a role in institutionalize it like a legal profession, institutionalizing counseling also where people can look forward to coming into the counseling business. A lot of children, friends now Children who have come back or just people from outside come and tell me, can I get into counseling? I say, you're most welcome. There's enough space for everybody. And I'll be happy to mentor you also, because I think I can only touch 100, 200,000, 3,000. Whole of India is here for you to counsel. So, yeah. So I think going back, I, uh, think this whole thing of an alternate career, if I'd been a headmaster was Goodbye, Mr. Chips. I would say so if you ever have a chance, look at the 1934 movie. Very inspiring. If you want to be working with children, I would say I'd love to.

Speaker A: I mean, uh, talking about teachers and students, there's a movie called Dead Poet

Speaker B: Society, which is one of my favorite. Absolutely brilliant.

Speaker A: The other movie which impacted me in terms of the journey I'm on is the same actor, Robin Williams, in a movie called Goodwill Hunting.

Speaker B: Oh, sir, if you look at. There's a poster outside of Goodwill Hunting.

Speaker A: Oh, is it?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Wow. I've got the DVD lying out here. So whenever somebody comes to me, uh, I said, want to study math, son? Watch three movies. Watch Good Will Hunting, Watch Beautiful, uh, mind. And watch, uh, the man who Knew Infinity. Misha Rosh. I'll watch. And they come back to me after Ms. Roshi. I watched all the three movies. I would love to do mathematics in common.

Speaker A: You're right. So Good Will Hunting, the, uh, Robin Williams character stayed with me because in a way. And his, uh, sort of counterpart as a math professor was obsessed about his career.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: While he sort of found his calling and gone on a different path.

Speaker B: So true. Villain movie. So anyway, when you go out, you watch the post. I've got a poster hunting post.

Speaker A: Okay. I was an IMA second year. I think it came out in 99 or 2099, I think. And it stayed with me in a way at that time. I didn't realize. But, uh, many years later, I go back to that.

Speaker B: Being one of the Deadpool Society is very similar to go out. Goodbye, Mr. Chips.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: We have a great mentor who can.

Speaker A: He's a teacher. I think he's an English teacher.

Speaker B: English teacher in a boarding school in, uh, prep school in Massachusetts.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: Correct. Right.

Speaker A: I think, uh, just maybe, uh, picking up on, um, what you said, your branches. Could you talk a little bit about, uh, how many people there are? What's the scale of your operation right now?

Speaker B: You know, um, I've perhaps followed the Rolex model of business and not the Swatch model.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, Um, a Lot of people follow the swatch model. They want numbers, they want online. I've decided to be very exclusive. Not exclusive in choosing my clients, but exclusively in working with limited number of clients, but giving them in depth counseling, uh, services. So uh, typically if I look back, if I start in 2004 to right now, I must have touched about 30,000 students. Wow, okay. Uh, typically one would meet five, six students in a day. It's quite exhaustive. You're working for two, one and a half to two hours per meeting. So it becomes quite exhaustive working for 10 hours a day. Now with zoom, it's become worse I would say. But anyway it's very satisfying. Um, uh, so if I look back, uh, your question was.

Speaker A: I was just saying what's the nature of scale? How many people do you have?

Speaker B: I think, uh, I've kept it small. Uh, we have a very small team. I have four people which are secretarial staff. Otherwise I'm a one man show. Uh, I do everything by myself. I'm uh, also like a um, dinosaur because um, uh, people laugh at me. Uh, in my office in the morning, all the emails get printed out. My secretary come and sit out there, I'll give her shorthand, she'll write it out, send the emails out. So I'm so old fashioned that respect. I've stayed away from having a website, I've stayed away from Facebook, stay away from M. Instagram, any of the modern tools. Because I just believe to be in my own world, happy to be with children, devote as much time as they want with me. So uh, we have stayed small. And then like when I go to different countries, I travel to one country every month for one week. Then I set up appointments in advance.

Speaker A: Uh, oh, it's still. When you said there are these geographies, the client facing stuff is you.

Speaker B: I mean completely.

Speaker A: The other countries are just providing. Are you servicing clients in those locations?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I go to Singapore, I stay there for 10 days and I meet all my clients out there. Next month I go to Dubai, I'll meet all my clients. I have a partner in Dubai who has office. But otherwise in Singapore, in London, uh, and in New York, I meet the clients one to one. Um, um, at either a, uh, um, uh, hotel or suite I take up and 10 days I work there. So you don't have offices per se, except in Dubai. But I think when you interact with parents all across the world, you get a pulse of the world market with you. And that has helped me tremendously my journey in India because You know what's happening around the world and bring that inputs into your counseling service. And let me tell you, a parent, as a parent, whether you're a parent in Dubai or in Singapore or in London. And not only Indian parents. Majority of my clients tend to be the Indian diaspora who have a comfort level working with Indian counselor. Sure. But um, even I've got a lot of clients who are Lebanese, plenty of Lebanese. I was going to open office in Beirut as a matter of fact. A lot of Middle Eastern clients, lot of Chinese clients. But every parent I've seen is similar for their child. They'll do anything to help their child get into and have a good career path and go to a good college. So I don't see any difference between parents. But um, um, yes, if I had to, if somebody would ask me which parents are the most aggressive, I would say to good extent the Chinese mothers, perhaps in the Jewish mothers followed by the Indian mothers. Indian mothers don't rank in terms of as aggressive as uh, these Jewish and Chinese, but they are really on the case of their child. So. But it's fun. I think you get a very different perspective all over the world, meeting different ways. Quite fascinating.

Speaker A: Going back to what you said, uh, viral about Rolex versus Swatch M. Um, how have you thought about that? Um, you know, what gave you the conviction to go the Rolex path and to sort of go the artisanal path in a way? If I say, I mean the other metaphor that I sometimes use is surgeon. Being a surgeon versus being building a hospital. You've chosen to be a high class surgeon, sort of a, sort uh, of highly specialized surgeon. How have you thought about that? Was it obvious to you all the time or have you thought about it differently?

Speaker B: First and foremost, I think I was very clear after the manufacturing experience, I wanted to control my own destiny. I m wanted to go and ski when I wanted to ski. I want to go and have a holiday. When I'm on a holiday, if I have a large organization that becomes much more challenging to control my own destiny. And I felt doing the artisan route by Rolex route path, I think you can really give the best service to your clients. And you know, a lot of people ask me, why do you enjoy children? Why do they enjoy working with you? And one thing I always will tell anybody, that unless you treat your client like your own child, you can never give them the best service. And I feel if I have to do that best service, you have the Rolex model with them as much time as they want. And you see over the years, parents, when they go to a law firm or anywhere else, they pay the highest fees possible. Now, in education also, I've seen parents are willing to pay the fees if you're giving them good service. And I said, instead of expanding and having so many people, so much staff, then your service goes down. You know, you're just making money on having volumes. That was not my objective at all. And, um, yes, I would agree with you. It's a surgeon's model as opposed to setting up a hospital. I think it's very enjoyable. A lot of people ask me, why don't you scale, uh, up your operation, go online? I said, what's the necessity? I'm 67 today. I don't think I would like to do that at this age. I'd rather relish my grandchildren and, uh, enjoy that 10 hours of concentrated effort every day rather than going, scaling up and having other headaches which are associated with that. Because I've seen people who have scaled up the quality of service gets lost. And that's what I didn't want to do. I want to maintain. And I think for me, most important, most important ethics. Um, you see, uh, over the years, a lot of companies have asked me to get into partnerships. They've asked me to. Some people have asked me bought out also at a private equity fund. I said no private equity fund wanted to buy me out and work within 10 years with them. But most interestingly, in this whole education business, it's all become a commission business.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: If I tie with the university in England, they'll give me 10% commission. I tie with the boarding school, they'll be 10% commission. I die with some saturated looter. That's what I have avoided. I've just said above board. I said, look here, if you're good, I'll recommend you. And that's why I've not tied up with anybody. I've not gone into partnerships. Also, I've not gone into any commission business because end of the day, if you want to give authentic advice, you have to stay independent. And independence comes through being above board in ethics at the end of the day. And that people get to know that you are ethical in what you're doing. You're not giving advice because you're getting a 10% commission from that person. You're giving advice, which is true advice for that child.

Speaker A: Beautiful. The other question, uh, that comes to mind viral is staying relevant. Right? Uh, 22 years, you've seen many shifts in a way that was around the dot com boom was happening then. There have been many other booms. Now we are seeing the A.I. uh, um, sort of playbook evolving. How have you thought of staying relevant and staying competitive? As if I may say, has the spaces moved from a mom and pop to an industrialized space? M How have you sort of kept your edge? What's been your approach?

Speaker B: I think I'll divide into two parts. One, relevance is uh, how to stay relevant in this business. Um, attending conferences, um, meeting with admission directors when they come out here. Um, um, visiting colleges, visiting schools all across the world, all across the country. Um, um, that keeps you abreast on what's happening that side. The other side I would say uh, is um, of course meeting a wide range of people all over the country. All over the world. Uh, I think a being relevant because of having offices now in Dubai, London, Singapore, New York. You relevant at the world market around you. Number two, writing articles. You do a lot of research for that at the end of the day, uh, giving seminars. Virtually, uh, twice a month I give seminars all across the country to schools, to colleges, to IPO Yu and all this. So you have to research for that. Um, uh, and also I would say even being one step ahead of what's happening in the market. I remember when I was uh, when we do college application we write essays and when students used to come to me they were quite lost. Flumox. How do you write a good essay? And what would they do? They would pick up a book from Amazon called 50 Successful Harvard Essays. 50 Successful Yale Essays. And they try and emulate that. Now the American child, the way he writes and the way he thinks, very different from our child. So about five years ago we made anthology of uh, uh, the best essays of students who gone to Ivy League schools. And we nicknamed it 101 essays called Indian Roots IV. Admits 101 essays got Indian students in Ivy League and Stanford and we classified them into eight chapters and different, different uh, types of essays and that became a bestseller because there was no resource base in India for essays and people when they started reading these essays. Oh my God, I can't believe we can write essays like that. So yes, being relevant is understanding what the market requires. So if I ever knew both these parts, yes, both these parts have helped me to stay relevant. And uh, today a lot of people tell me you don't use AI in your business. As I said, I am relevant, but I'm also a dinosaur because I believe in working the old fashioned way and I'm happy with it. You know, um, well, you haven't seen one day when you'll come. I have a habit of writing notes. So when a student comes and meets me, I write everything in handwriting and I give them a 10 page, 12 page note which they carry with them and I keep it there for the next four years or eight years to come and then have a. Well, I've been known that when I write something in red at the top, it's a very uh, auspicious thing and that I. Oh, you're going to get admission this school. So typically people, oh, please write to the red pen and tell us where we will get in. You know. So, um, yeah, so I think I have not embraced technology as perhaps one should have. But I don't see the necessity of doing that in my business where it's a Rolex model. Yes, if I was looking at volumes. Technology is very important for me. Child is important. And typically today, anybody who comes back to me after 15 years, I can remember which college he went to, what he had done for his college application, so much so on a lighter note, whenever my students get married and they invite me, what I carry with me is a framed copy of the common app essay to US colleges. And they're so shocked. Oh, Mr. Dosh, you kept it with you? They say, I've kept all my students, uh, details with me. So that's when people, how do you remember these things? I said, because you deal with limited people, you remember each child specially and that's what makes them so, you know, uh, wonder, oh my God, how can you do this? So yes, I have not perhaps embraced technology. That's one lacuna perhaps everybody tells me, but I don't see necessary. But yes, today a lot of people, when they come to you for project ideas, they go to ChatGPT and it's very evident they're going to ChatGPT. But I think just being the way you are, it's worked well for me. It'll work well for me in the future.

Speaker A: Also, I think uh, the whole discussion now is moving to the direction of staying human in the age of AI. And I think what you just said about carrying that essay that the person wrote 15 years back, framing it, I

Speaker B: think these are human touches.

Speaker A: Uh, and the handwritten note, I think

Speaker B: that's where, yeah, something which stand you out, I would imagine asking me what makes me relevant. People remember me for that. You know, they carry the folder when they come back to Mr. Oshi. These are your notes, you told me exactly. I'll go and become A chartered accountant. I've become a chartered accountant. You told me I get a rank. I got a rank also. Wow. That's what makes you happy, isn't it? When somebody comes and tells you that because of you, I am what I am today, it's very gratifying. And for me, even, you know, when somebody comes from a family, the child is happy and he recommends the second child to come. I know I've done a good job, you know, that for me is, uh, happiness. That for me is excellence in the work that I do. Not getting any awards, anything of that sort, but that's what I would do.

Speaker A: That's beautiful. Actually, even before, just a couple of hours before this conversation, I was chatting with my colleague Aakash and showing him a handwritten note I'd written to somebody.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Uh, and it was somebody's friend's, uh, 25th anniversary. And I wrote a handwritten note just congratulating the couple. They said just the fact that you took the time to take a write a handwritten note means so much, uh, in a world where people are just using AI to generate stuff. So, uh, it's so thoughtful. If I could move the conversation a little bit to, um, your observations of journeys, in a way, you've also had, um, a beautiful window seat to how different journeys have played out. And you also have a longitudinal view because you engage with somebody at a point and in a way you don't touch. I'm curious about what you've observed about some of those things. I think just maybe going back to just the process of decision making. If I may, what, uh, have you observed about how people made these decisions? And if you just plotted the decision making style over the years, what have you observed? Uh, what has stayed the same? What has changed? What's, uh, causing angst to people now versus what caused angst earlier?

Speaker B: I think I would answer the question a little differently. I think you should look at India's evolution. Um, 30, 40 years ago. If you wanted to plan a career, you didn't have too much of choices. And if you had a choice, also, parents would compartmentalize you son. You do either engineering, law, ca or medicine. If you did something else, you couldn't do it. A, there was opportunities were limited, and B, what was a parent looking at in 1340 as a security for a child?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Over the years, what has happened, I've seen. I remember there's been a, uh, it's been a shift, you know, so every five, 10 years, I see a shift happening about 2530 years ago, I think the goal for everybody was to do engineering. Then about 15, 20 years ago it became finance. Then I've seen about 10 years ago it became law. Uh, then there's about five, eight, 10 years ago it would be in computer science and now shifted to AI. I think one thing is very interesting, that 30, 40 years ago the parents who would come to meet me, very few had been educated abroad. For them still was to work animation degrees. But now the parents who come to me have studied abroad themselves. Um, so because they've studied abroad, they're allowing the children to follow their passion. So my first thing that any child who comes to meet me, I would tell them, where do you want to be in the future? And we'll work backwards. I said after the 12th, whatever you do, do what you enjoy. Eventually if you do what you enjoy, you will excel. And if you excel, you can go to any top postgraduate degrees afterwards. And I'll give them wonderful examples of people who've done what they were passionate about and follow their passion. Now that was never allowed. And today also I notice, um, my children from urban cities, Bangalore, Delhi, Bombay, parents who have studied abroad, they are now changing the mindset of allowing the children to follow their passion. Two reasons. One, they've got more security, financial security, of course, as required. And number two, they've realized by doing humanities you can still make a career. But today still, my students from 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th year cities who come to meet me, they will still not go outside that compartmentalized box of ca, engineering, law or medicine. Because for them, going one step of the ladder. So maybe 30 years from now they will also allow the child to do what they enjoy because their children have gone abroad.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: So it's a cyclical thing, I think, um, I think we have come a long way in our country. But as far as decision making on what career paths to follow, I don't think too much has changed in that pattern. The parents still play a very influential role. Whether it was 30 years ago or today. Parents and sadly parents start to fulfill their own ambitions for their children, isn't it? I couldn't get to iit, so my child has to go to iit. I couldn't do anything, My child has to engineering. I tell them, you, uh, know Mr. Mrs. So and so, your child can't do engineer, doesn't have an aptitude. No, no, he will do engineering. We have been told engineering is the best option or computer science the best option today. So, uh, this is when you deal with parents because you to educate them in the best way I've seen of telling a parent or a student what career path to follow is to give them role models. I um, always think that works like a charm when I tell them not only role models, I give them role models from their own school who went and did something, what they enjoyed what they did. Oh, he did this. I didn't realize that even I can do that. So I think that's become the change. People are urban cities. They've gone one notch above where they're able to allow their children to do what they want. Still, I would say another 20, 30 years behind are the third fourth tier cities. But that's a changing India. I don't know. I've seen the last 10 years number of students for example going overseas has gone up by 300%. Rising affluency. Foreign exchange is freely available. Internet has become level playing field and more international schools. Are you aware India has the third highest number of IB schools in the world? Number one is US, number two is Canada. Number three is India. Number four is China. 270 IB schools. Wow, look at that sir. We have close to 800 A level schools. Never existed 20 years ago. This is new India today for you. And all these children who go to the international schools want to go overseas today. So I think things have changed. Um, um, so become much more competitive. Um, so that's why the second third tier cities which I was telling you earlier about, I think it'll take them time to allow their children to follow their passion. Decision making still controlled by the parents. Much more so in the second third tier cities. Little less in the first second tier cities. First tier cities, I would say like Bombay, Delhi, Bangalore, they're still now allowing children to follow their passion. It's in fun to see them. And I think sometimes I always wonder, I think it's more important to counsel the parent than the child, isn't it? Parents require more counseling, not the child, isn't it?

Speaker A: They are harder to change children.

Speaker B: I think uh, children are malleable.

Speaker A: Correct. I think I uh, can totally understand, uh, just uh, going back to again that if I may say that decision point. You know, one of the people I spoke to who's uh, a neighbor now is a gentleman called Atul Kasbekar, a photographer. But he started uh, studying uh, chemical engineering at udct.

Speaker B: True.

Speaker A: Um, and then he went and at some point he quit that, went and studied photography and built a career. But one of the things uh, he said stayed with me, he said I chose Chemical engineering. Because I loved chemistry, correct?

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And within a week I realized chemistry has got to do with chemical.

Speaker B: Correct? Absolutely.

Speaker A: And the question I had for you was, what are, uh, what are these kinds of, if I may call it, silly mistakes you see people make?

Speaker B: Oh, plenty of.

Speaker A: So what are the few sort of, if I may, themes that emerge for you?

Speaker B: I tell you small things. For example, economics initially, economics in isc, cbs, hse, it's all memorizing, rote learning. Then suddenly you land up in college, you realize, oh my God, economics is a mathematics degree. It's a math and stats degree with the garb of economics around it made a big mistake. Right. Uh, and then they shift into business afterwards. Or, uh, for example, uh, computer science. When people think of computer science, they feel, oh, Mr. Roshi, I must do computer science in 11th and 12th to go to computer science. And now tell them you don't understand, young man, when you apply to a computer science college, they don't want to see computer science in 11th and 10th. They want to see maths and physics. They never thought, why do they require maths and physics for computer science? I said look here, uh, they want to see analytical mind, a logical mind, which maths and physics can prove to you, which computer science can't do for you at the end of the day. Um, so these are some very two most important things which come up. And sadly, unfortunately for the last eight, 10 years, the BE all and the end all is to do computer science. And what has happened lately, last two years, 90% of my students in America are not getting internships or getting jobs with computer science. So I always tell people, learn computer science, use computer science, embrace computer science, but think 10 times of doing computer science because one AI special is replacing eight coders today. And people have not understood that yet. Still, it's a computer science still the norm. Especially in certain parts of India, like in Andhra Pradesh, every child has to be a computer scientist. It's very amusing. There are certain schools in Hyderabad, fantastic schools, but more than 70% are U.S. citizens. And for everybody that desires to go to do computer science out there. So, um, uh, I think changing mindset would be to tell the children, look at computer science is not the be all and the end all. I think you, uh, have to understand that these things are changing and evolving. Computer science was the name of the game 10 years ago, but it's no more. There in AI will play a significant role in whatever we do. I think the biggest fear for everybody is will AI replace jobs? I think Nobody can answer that. Of course, yes, it is replacing entry level jobs in consulting, in finance, uh, in the legal field. But it will evolve. I think we'll have to embrace AI. So if you look at the Nvidia chairman's podcast, he says very clearly, a person who wants to be successful in the future, if he can do something in STEM with AI on top of it, he'll perhaps be the most successful person. If you don't want to do stem, you may do humanities and put AI on top of it. You'll also be successful. So I think you need to embrace AI and that'll lead to prompt engineering. Lot of careers will evolve, true. And AI will play a very critical role in how we think. But if somebody would ask me where AI replace things, I said, you can't replace a doctor with AI. Uh, can't replace a civil engineer with AI. But this AI tool will help become a better civil engineer, a better doctor. And that is a fear. I think parents are very anxious right now. Um, tell us about the future. I said, nobody can deliver the future. But I can tell you one thing. Let your child learn A.I. uh, in college and let them embrace it. But then another mistake people make. I only want to do AI for four years. Actually could not do AI for four years.

Speaker A: It sits on top of something.

Speaker B: On top of something. That's the trick to. That's what people don't understand today. Once they go to college, they talk to other people, they talk to professors, and they realize AI should be on top of something, not AI by itself. Um, India, we've had this herd mentality. You know, if somebody was manufacturing these LPG cylinders, everybody will start manufacturing LP cylinder. That guy is doing well. If somebody is doing AI now, everybody. Oh, my challenge to do AI and data science. M. And I said, look here, do AI do data. Do it on top of something. Not by itself. By itself. And I think then they realized it after four days. The challenge, not getting a job. He doesn't have a skill set with him.

Speaker A: The other theme I'm curious about Viral is, um, my conversation with Pramat Sinha, who's also on this podcast many years back. Uh, he, um, you know, one of the questions I asked him was, uh, you have a perspective on young, young adults because you're actively involved in education and you work with leaders.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Uh, how do we prepare the leaders of tomorrow? And how should people think about educational choices? And his point was, the link between the first degree and careers is getting more and more tenuous. You know, earlier if you studied uh, sort of medicine, you became a doctor, you studied psychology, you became a therapist. Now in a way people are starting somewhere but finishing somewhere else. What's your take on let's say the role of the first degree and careers?

Speaker B: I always say the first degree should be something that you enjoy and your skills should come with a second degree. I m tell you interesting options. I had people doing uh, uh, BSc in biochemistry, doing a law degree, getting into patent law. People uh, biochemistry, doing something like uh, uh, public health and going work with Bill Gates Foundation. Um, you have people doing physics and doing a PhD in physics, going into doing hedge funds or uh, doing uh, private equity. Um, so you have so many pros and combinations. So the times have changed. Earlier uh, you are absolutely right what he said and what you were saying is absolutely true that earlier the first degree control your career. Not anymore. The second degree will control your career. The secondary will be a skill based. That is why today you look at more and more people are opting for humanities also with a B in psychology or a B English. I'm not going to get a job. But if I do what I enjoyed and I top it up with a law degree or MBA or a master's, that'll get me a job. I'll give you my own example of my own family. Uh, my son went to study biochemistry in America. He graduated history and German. My wife had a heart attack. You know our Indian mothers, Gujarati mother, physics, chemistry, math. How did hell I'm going to do history? I said leave him alone. He did his MBA in finance and masters in public policy. That's what controlled his life. So you're absolutely right. First degree and second degree are now completely irrelevant. But the secondary should be your skill based profession. First degree should be something that you're passionate about.

Speaker A: It's a beautiful distinction. Actually I hadn't thought of it in uh, uh, that sort of clear terms. Um, and second one is what you're saying is in a way what will give you a job or what's what sort of will help you tomorrow.

Speaker B: If you do a BSc in physics, you not get a job easily except perhaps in the finance one top of physics. You aware two of our chief justices had done physics as undergraduate degree. So when you give role mode like that to children, they get so excited. Oh my God. He did law and he became a Chief Justice. I said yes. I said why would you do physics before law? Physics trains your mind to think anatomically. When top law degree gives you analytical logical skills which are so exciting for a legal profession.

Speaker A: And that's the other thing I was talking to with my nephew recently and the discussion was should I do a BBA or should I do something in economics? And at least my sense I might be wrong was that the undergraduate degree should be in something specific, foundational, like physics or biochemistry. And at least my view is that it gives you a lens with which you see the world. If the first view itself is sort of a wide lens. Uh, I wonder.

Speaker B: Yes and no. Both I would say. I would say it would depend on the child's aptitude, isn't it? You may tell him, do economics. We can't do maths. How will he do economics? Mhm. So I would say depends on the child's aptitude. Of course, if his aptitude do something, something which is in STEM or something. Obviously that's a good option because it trains your mind to think analytic logic. When people ask me, how did engineering help you? I said help me indirectly. It's made my mind think naturally, logically. When I do all my counseling work, I can analyze and think logically because of engineering degree. So um, um, at uh, the end of the day, I would say, uh, if you do a broad based degree, it's a much better option because you can discover what you will do at the age of 16, 17, who knows what they want to do? And that is the beautiful part about the American education. Talk to any American kid. The amount of counseling I've done with American kids, 9 out of 10 don't know what they want to do. But India, 7 out of 10 know what they want to do because they have to survive and they have to know what they want to do. American, you don't need to survive. You can do. Follow your passion, go to college and discover that you want to do engineering, you want to do English, you want to do music. You'll discover in college that privilege we still don't have in our country.

Speaker A: Very true.

Speaker B: It takes another 30, 40 years when India becomes more affluent, uh, with affluency, gives more security. Security gives you, allows you to explore what you want to do. You cannot do all these things in a country which is developing. Remember that. So you could have not have done what America did 50 years ago. We couldn't have done that. We can do it now because we have more affluence. That's why humanities, liberal arts is now coming in forth. You look at Ashoka, you look at flame. Uh, you look at Ahmedabad University, you look at Nayanta, which is coming in Pune, you look at Korea. Those colleges could not have existed in India 25 years ago, but today they're existing because people have understood the value of a, uh, humanities or a liberal arts education.

Speaker A: It's so true. Even if I go back to my time in IIM M. Ahmedabad, my favorite course actually was organizational behavior. Um, but I kept telling myself I should be doing, I come from an engineering background, I should do derivatives. So I did options and future and derivatives and all that. And then 20 years later I find myself in the OB related field. Um, but you're right. Um, you know, one of my friends was telling me education in India is often seen as a financial asset, not as an exploration. Again, if when you come from the

Speaker B: middle class, you can't explore, it's all fine to say all that. Explore, you cannot explore unless you're from the upper classes where you have got stability of finance. You can go and explore what you'll do for a middle class. Upper middle class still is getting that, you know, earning the bread and butter with the degree that they have. And that will take another 30, 40 years before that changes.

Speaker A: I want to move to a different topic. Um, like you said, many of us don't know what we are truly passionate about. And even if we know, it's only when you get into a college that you really experience what a, uh, degree is or what a certain discipline is. Um, what have you seen about false starts? I'm sure many people start in some direction, quickly realize that's not the direction. What's your guidance for people that find themselves maybe, you know, drilling, uh, the hole in the wrong place, who have to drill the hole somewhere else? What have you observed or people that have done it well and pivoted along the way?

Speaker B: I think if you divide into two parts, if you look at the India option, obviously it's more difficult out here. Um, uh, uh, if you want to change also, you can't change very easily. M. So I've seen typically people in engineering institutes pivoting more into finance after the first year or second year for two reasons. One, they find obviously the return on income. I mean, M, you can make good money in finance and you've seen seniors doing it. So you pivot into finance, you realize, oh, my God, it's much easier than doing engineering for four years. So they build the engineering degree and they pivot into finance. Uh, but now with new age colleges like Ashoka Korea, you can, you do a foundation program for the first two years, a core curriculum, and then declare majors. You can discover what you want to do so I think, uh, pivoting into careers, most people, I would say pivot. I think if they have to change, it's more often in America. In India, the new liberal arts college is allowing you to apply for economics and you pivot into history. But most of the students I've seen pivoting not so much in college as post college. After the first two years of working somewhere, oh my God, this is not my calling. I want to do something else. So I think pivoting takes place more in the first four, five years I would say. Then they find out what they want to do and then stabilize after that. But even I've seen people pivoting after 10 years. Also after 15 years, also people not found their calling. Uh, and that's where I think the requirement of uh, uh, good counselors, coaches like you who can guide the path they should follow. I think it's a call of the hour today. Today you're doing executive coaching with senior executives. Today I'm doing coaching with my high school and my college students. I think they require, and I can touch maybe thousand, two thousand, three thousand people every year. There's a whole population lying there who don't know what they want to do. Millions and people. Yeah. So I think pivoting is more, uh, I see happening more in the job market than I'm seeing in the at college level. So even if uh, Atulkas want to do photography to finish his perhaps engineering and then he went to photography after that. So I think that's what happens, that you wait for your undergrad degree to finish and then pivot into what you want to do afterwards, not during your undergraduate degree. Very difficult to do it out here possibly with usa Ah, but US is exception. Everybody can't go to usa but for England, Singapore, India, you still have to pivot after you finish. So you have to wait for that four years to finish. But whatever degree you do, I, ah, always tell students it always be of value to you, the way it makes you think, the way it makes you write, speak. Education is very important and will help you in life, in whatever you do. So don't worry about the future. And I'm a big fan of telling whatever you do in life be the best in what you do. Money will follow you. Don't chase money. Money will chase you if you are good in what you do. M Everybody comes to me to make money first. So I have a very pickular habit when I do a career. Uh, I'll draw a graph of income versus number of Years, that's okay. Economics mba, State, part economics, Law one not higher. Economics Masters one not sure. And that excites the students. A lot of people think of converting careers when they come and meet with based on the graph sometimes, especially boys, the money factor becomes very important. It's very amusing. So uh, I think if proper guidance is given that pivoting is much less but guidance is lacking. That is where pivoting takes place and

Speaker A: maybe staying with that viral, let's say the instance where five years down the line, 10 years down the line, the person realizes they are climbing the wrong ladder and they want to do something else. Very often people know what they don't want to do, but struggle with figuring out what they should be doing instead of what's your guidance for people who are stuck? Uh, at that point

Speaker B: I think, um, by and large situations like this have come more of students of mine who go in the finance world. Everybody goes into finance. The glamour, oh, I'll have a Mercedes car, I have a five door, a five bedroom house. I'd be traveling first class everywhere. And they realize it's not what it is, you know, and they get so frustrated because it's a cutthroat competition. They say, oh my God, I didn't realize it's going to be so cutthroat. I would make a pivotal change or something which is more relaxing. It could be marketing, whatever. So I think majority of the changes I've seen have been people from the finance industry.

Speaker A: Which is the steepest curve, Steepest curve.

Speaker B: And people don't understand you're playing with sharks out there. Um, you know, the engineers from IIT the CAs are so sharp that if you're not sharp enough in India, you can be just thrown away. You get very frustrated. So that's why it's very important to do a balance of making money and do what you enjoy. That's why giving proper guidance, that is where I felt there was a lacuna in India. Nobody was doing that work at a high school level. And that's where I tried to fit in. My profile is to going abroad is one part. It's uh, a, it's an end journey. But that four year path in high school, four year path in college. Nobody's counseling students today. Who's counseling today? Person like you can do five, 10 people, you require 10,000 more counselors in India. But if you cannot become a counselor easily, you have to either experience yourself, you have to experience with your own children, then you become a good counselor at the end of the Day M so unless you have that experience, how do you tell a child, you can't do this, you can't do that, they won't even listen to you. So it is a bit of a challenge. But I think, uh, proper guidance given in school. That's why I tell people, when you're in school or colleges, before you jump into a career path, do some internships during college life in summer and Diwali break, do some job sharding in high school. That will give a good direction where you want to be in life. But even after doing that, you make mistakes.

Speaker A: Of course.

Speaker B: But I tell you, nine out of ten mistakes are finance. I don't see in any other profession people not being happy.

Speaker A: Very interesting.

Speaker B: Finances where the 90% of people are not happy. Because if I make hundred thousand dollars, you make 120. How did he make 120? So I'm very upset I didn't get that $120,000.

Speaker A: There's always somebody above you, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Nobody's happy in finance. That's why all these problems have occurred because everybody wants to have greed, isn't it? The greed, greed, greed. But a child doing this videograph. He's so happy with his work. He's uh, satisfied with his work.

Speaker A: So true.

Speaker B: He's doing what he enjoys. That's not in finance. Finance did it because you were told to do finance. Um, and so sad. When a child comes to me with a parent, he say, you join a hedge fund and a child, I want to join a private equity fund. I'm join. Don't even know what it means. I've been told my parents I must join. That that's what they achieve. The goal for any parent in India should be, ah, joining a hedge fund or a private equal. Why? Money is big. That's what they're chasing. They're not chasing careers, they're chasing money. Um, that has to be stopped. That has to be. Parents have to be counseled. M and unless they see a hedge fund, they not realize the challenges in hedge funds. They don't realize it.

Speaker A: True. And going back to something that you said very early on, viral. In terms of how you profile a child. You spoke about psychometrics. You spoke about, um, some of the personality elements apart from the interest the child has. Are there links you see between, let's say certain types of personality and certain careers? You know, very often we look at subjects and skills, but we forget about the underlying wiring that a person has towards a certain discipline. Are there, uh, let's say markers, you Would say for let's say um.

Speaker B: Obviously if somebody is extremely articulate fond of world affairs you would encourage look at law as a career option. Uh if you have somebody very strong leadership uh and a very interesting person did a degree in business and I made him do sports management and then he's now working at FIFA today he just enjoys football so much that he's enjoying following his passion today. So I think after having the experience which I've had you can um virtually tell which careers the child will enjoy doing it in. And that's what I try to do in my own small way convince a parent and that you look here I think if you do a business degree followed by digital marketing I think you'll enjoy thoroughly your personality and your aptitude suits that. That's where the aptitude test becomes very vital because sometimes you want to do a career you don't have the aptitude um or you have the aptitude you're not thought of that career. That's where I become the bridge match both together in help the career path. But yes other traits would help you. Uh you get those very aggressive types. You won't go into a hedge fund typically make out there people who are very soft the academic type you know so you can make out a profile with their demeanor also and also I think the family plays a very key role in influencing I would say nine out of 10 children who come from parents who in the finance world will think of finance only um law will think of law to a great extent because the family influences you. But very interesting if I look at um um um. Sorry. No cancel that path. I was just going wrong but yeah. Um. Uh. Ah. Demeanor attributes do play a key role in guiding a person and that's why I think today I'm doing it for high school kids and college level students. There's a You know if I ask you tell me some professionals who are helping mid career switches. There's nobody in India uh if I I work for five years and finally I want to switch into no who do I go for advice I go to some senior in my company or some uncle and aunt who's been the profession if there is a coach for middle level changes there tremendous demand nobody's even thought of that and there's and that people are so confused and if and they're willing to pay good fees for that. So today you're doing for example you're doing with seniority we're coaching them. But if you go down to middle level 10 year experience who if I have a 10 year experience working with a particular bank. I want to make a career switch. Who do I go to talk to? Um, nobody. I talk to some seniors or some people industry who give me some guidance but they don't understand me, they don't understand my background. True, you require a professional do that. So I think there's a tremendous opportunity in that also a lot of people have come back to me for mid career counsel. I don't do that. I don't have the time, I don't, I can't handle it. I need to go in much more depth. But I remember life coaches for example a very new thing in India. So I've had people who have switched to life coaching also they're not do, they don't do middle management do senior executives. But uh, I think that's the call of the hour today.

Speaker A: And I think to your point just like you need to understand the child you also need to understand the world of opportunity and you need to marry the two.

Speaker B: How do you understand world of opportunity without having worked?

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: I mean I can do theoretical counseling but if I don't understand. See I've been industry myself. I uh have family members. I've got my son, I've got my brother, all industry. You get feedback on me. You're constantly going and getting that feedback and in putting in your own mind

Speaker A: stage 11 bringing it back to parents viral. You spoke about parents being coached, needing coaching more than the kids sometimes in some of these things. Uh, in what ways have you seen parents come in the way of the child making a good choice? One is of course you spoke about parents living their dreams through the kids. But what are some of the other common um kinds of if I may

Speaker B: say for example boys, parents won't allow them to do anything in humanities. The boy has to do engineering or has to do computer science. Maximum economics. Why the parents think what will the child do but still at that old fashioned thing still remains in India of m. You know uh, security. So I think parents are coming of age will take a much longer time I would say for girls, um, um um they won't allow them to certain careers because they feel that because we're not able to manage afterwards you know. But um, but I think what I've seen children who come from large industrial houses when they look at career paths or colleges they're not as bothered about the brand as much as the education they get because they know they have a safety net in their own family business. But children who come from non industrial houses Whose parents have made it big but you know they don't have that much of security. They are looking at a brand. Um, so that's when the parents feed it further. Look at, you have to go to a brand, you have to be successful. So that's a mistake parents make. And when you go to a brand, if you're not good enough, you'll not survive the brand. You don't survive the brand. You go one step lower for your postgraduate degree. For me it's climbing up. You go high school, go to a good college and go to a good postgraduate degree. So over the years I've been telling parents and children eventually in life it's your postgraduate degree which counts, not your undergraduate degree degree.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Do what you enjoy at undergrad degree. It's your postgraduate degree which will control your life. So go one step up, up, up. Your ultimate brand should come at a postgraduate degree.

Speaker A: Fascinating. Fascinating. Actually till, till you made it this explicit, I hadn't thought of it as a two step thing very often. There's a tendency to see it as a one step uh, climb. Um, I think the other piece I'm curious about viral is you meet um, many people who are successful, other parents are successful. They ah, send their children to you for counseling. Um, I'm also curious about how you know how to keep uh, in a way it's a personal question, right? How do you keep your children grounded? See I come from the middle class. Um, I'm fortunate to having gotten where I've gotten Now one of the questions in my mind is how do I ensure kids have feet on the ground and uh, you know uh, uh despite the comforts are uh, in touch with the reality. What have you observed about of the various thousands of people you've interacted with when you look at the children who are sort of grounded if I may use the term. What is it about the parenting that you've noticed which has ensured that

Speaker B: I think um, I would say by and large children in India tend to be quite grounded compared to. But yes, with the rising affluency there has been a certain increase in parents who are highly ah, big achievers, highly uh, affluent. Now they have a chip on the shoulder. They shouldn't that you know, the parents are man directors or private equity fund. So you can see the chip on their shoulder. Um so I think by and large children are grounded in this country. I think we still have our middle class values in major. The people. I would say a certain percentage perhaps not but there's a small percentage I Would say, um, no, I think groundless. I don't think I've had an issue with people being grounded. But one thing I would tell anybody when they come to meet me is when you were, whenever you make a career, one thing I would tell people, you should learn humility. And that is the biggest reason I've seen people following my students who have fallen across favor is because they become arrogant. Brilliance makes American, wealth makes American and maybe sports only makes them arrogant. And that's when I always say when somebody, parents, children come to meet me, some of them are extremely aggressive because they have rock stars in the school and they realize after going to college they're like nobody. At the end of the day, when they live in, when they go out in life to get jobs, they're like everybody else and they find it very difficult to accept that they were rock stars in high school. They're nobody right now. So I think they prepare them for a soft landing and make them come to ground. So when, you know, a lot of these high flying hedge fund, I'm sorry hedge fund managers come to meet me, they always think, you know, that God's gift to mankind and oh, I know the Harvard uh, chairman very well. I know the MIT president very well. Fair enough. So you have to bring them ground to ground level. Look here, what you may think, you know, but it's not the way things work. You know, you have a certain way of approaching the parents, counseling them also. Um, uh, and I think for the children, I think it's important to bring them down to ground level. So yes, I get 10, 20% who are highly aggressive. I think you have to educate them by telling them, look here, don't go this path, be grounded a little bit more. So I think talking to them does make sense and I think uh, giving role models to them becomes the easiest way. I think today if I have to see why, where I've been successful is giving role models to children for anything they want to do.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Once you give a role model, this fellow has done this from your school or he was very aggressive, he fell, then, oh, okay, I won't do that. So you have to give role models to them. Children learn with role models. I feel that's the best way to like when you, when somebody tells you give an example, I will give example about role model.

Speaker A: I would say that's a fascinating, it makes it real and it makes it relatable. Real life, fascinating. Um, just a few questions to wrap up. Uh, as we approach the end of the conversation. I think we briefly touched upon AI but uh, given your vantage point from a mindset perspective, what are the few, two, three things that you think the young adults of today need to have to be relevant and to thrive in the world of AI?

Speaker B: Simple embrace AI. Um, um, I think world is going to become much more competitive. Jobs, um, obviously going to be challenging at an entry level position. So obviously you have to work hard, be disciplined, um, um, and I guess excellent what you do. Because if you're excellent what you do, jobs do open up for people. Um, but I think AI is too early for us to say how AI is going to impact people. I would not like to opine on that. I don't think anybody knows how AI is going to impact. But I would tell anybody that. Don't fear AI. Embrace AI because jobs will be replaced to some extent, but jobs will remain. Now, um, this, what he's doing. AI cannot replace it. You can't tell, okay, come and do my whole thing. Of course you can do it, but it won't be as effective as a human, a doctor, engineer, a civil engineer. So AI will be a great tool. We should not fear AI, we should embrace AI And AI will be very helpful to us to have a better quality of life. But yes, you have this fear monger. AI is going to replace all the jobs. I think that's unfair to say that. I don't think that's going to happen. Even if you remember when the uh, car replaced the Bullock cards or uh, when Internet came through or when uh, emails uh, came. Everybody. It's going to revolution the world. It's going to change completely. AI. Yes, it'll be galloping much faster. But I think this is going to be a great tool for us to have a better quality of life.

Speaker A: Lovely. Um, maybe a quick uh, sort uh, of uh. What do you call that? Sorry, rapid fire.

Speaker B: Sorry.

Speaker A: Just maybe a few uh, questions to wrap up. What gives you joy outside of work?

Speaker B: Watching Hindi movies at 10pm at INOX every Friday.

Speaker A: Oh wow.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And your favorite, let's say three favorite movies. Hindi movies.

Speaker B: Oh wow. Hindi movies.

Speaker A: We spoke about English movies.

Speaker B: Uh, uh, wow. It's hard to just off the cuff. Uh, uh, definitely one would be Sholay. Uh, um, uh, old movie, Sai Bibi Ghulam, one of my favorites. And uh, um, uh, the Shahrukh Khan movies. Uh,

Speaker A: got it. Fascinating. Um, as you think about your journey, any particular move, decision, uh, that you regret?

Speaker B: I guess if I had not gone to manufacturing, I may not have come into this field. It happened by default Isn't it? So I don't think I would recur anything I've done in life. Uh, um, I think it's been a very happy journey for me. I'm very content. And uh, for me I've not chased money, have chased happiness. And happiness is when you follow your passion.

Speaker A: It's beautiful. I think, um, the piece that I was looking for, which I slipped my mind, maybe I should mention it. There's a beautiful documentary called Zero dreams of Sushi. I don't know if you've seen it. Uh, it's about a Japanese chef called Jiro.

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker A: Who runs a restaurant, uh, Sushi making restaurant. Uh, somewhere in Japan. Uh, and at some level you could argue sushi is like vada pao.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But he sort of made that as a really artisanal product and it's the only Michelin star restaurant without some toilets or whatever. Some. Uh. And even Barack Obama, when he visited Japan, he made a pit stop at that and he's chosen not to expand and stayed artisanal. And you know, it's a, it's a very mindset.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: And there's a whole documentary on his. How he thinks about excellence, the pressure to which he cooks the rice, the size of the sushi, how he seats the guests.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: And the level of. Nth level of.

Speaker B: Uh, absolutely. You know, as a matter of fact, we were talking about parents and I must share with you. And this is something I think is very important. If any parent has to decide colleges to go to. I think one book which I think has been a brilliant book, Camera. It's called, um, uh, where you go is not who you'll be. It's by Frank Bruni and he's given case for one Ivy League success. There have been 10 people who went to Michigan State, Ohio State who've done far better than Ivy League admitted. So I think it's a very important book and people understand that which college you go to is not what school, what you're going to be, it's how happy. Go to a college which is a good fit for you, Anna. Uh, where you'll be happy, whether it be India, whether it be UK or usa. Go send your child to a college where you'll be happy. Not necessarily because it's a brand. At the beautiful.

Speaker A: Um, I think, um. You already spoke about humility, but wider question. Three traits that you believe are markers of long term success, happiness and fulfillment.

Speaker B: Discipline. I would definitely say hard work. Mhm. And enjoying every day waking up in the morning as I'm looking forward to going to work today. M. Every day I get up in the morning, who am I going to meet today? White child. I'm looking forward to coming to the office. That is the case. You'll always be happy.

Speaker A: Beautiful. Beautiful. And this is the question I ask all the people who are on the podcast. Uh, what does the term play to potential mean to you? Uh, the podcast is titled Play to Potential. What does the phrase mean to you?

Speaker B: Play to potential. What would it mean to me? Wow, that's a. Interesting question. Play to potential would be for me. I'm just thinking aloud. What would it be for me? Play to potential would be. I don't know. What, uh, would play to potential be? Being, uh, happy in what you do, being satisfied, being contented. Play to potential would be contented and be happy with what you do. Uh, I would say following your passion. Play to potentially following your passion and being happy and being contented. The contentment is lacking, isn't it? Um, every time we earn, we always, oh, we want to. We're never happy with what you do. If you're content with what you do, you'll always be very happy.

Speaker A: And it's. It's very beautiful, I must say. Uh, you know, very often people see contentment and ambition as two different things. But, I mean, you are a beautiful case in point. Point to somebody who's content yet has grown so much over the years and achieved so much. So in a way, they're not. Contentment does not mean one is not correct.

Speaker B: Ambitious.

Speaker A: Ambitious, and one doesn't want to grow.

Speaker B: You could be content that you are content with what you make and what you do. That's contentment. You can be at, uh, the same time ambitious also to basically, ambition is always to be that. You've helped so many people that when I die, I would love to say that I was able to empower 100,000 people in India to follow their career paths and follow their passion.

Speaker A: Beautiful. I hope you found this podcast useful. Privilege to spend my time with. Three things stayed with me in this conversation. Thank you. One, it's never late to pivot towards your passion. Who would have thought somebody who started their career in super alloys would end up counseling thousands of children and really make a career out of this. Second, I love the fact that there is room for artisans in this world. It was music to my ears to hear viral speak about the Rolex model versus the Swatch model. Very often I find in discussions, scale is assumed as a default mode of growth, but it's Reassuring that there are people who are focused on excellence rather than scale in the way they think about their journey. And one of the books that has stayed with me in this context is a book called Small Giants by Bo Burlingam, um, where he talks about companies that choose to become great rather than large. The last thing that stayed with me was his notion of role models. This conversation with Viral would not have happened if a couple of people I spoke to had suggested his name as a role model. So starting from there to hearing him to Even in my book Play to Potential that I wrote in November 2024, I talk about the importance of role models in the context of discovering our values. Very often it's hard for us to put a finger on what really our values are, what our principles are. But if we reflect on who our role models are, sometimes it can show us the mirror on what we truly care about. In the book I talk about three people that deeply inspire me. One is David Attenborough, who recently celebrated his hundredth birthday on the fact that he's lived a long time life of passion, contribution and meaning. Second is Alexander Babu, somebody who's around my age, but he started with a career in engineering but pivoted to stand up. But what's interesting is that he's operating at the intersection of two disciplines and he's found a skill stack, music and humor. He's somebody who's trained in classical music, Carnatic classical music, and has a good sense of humor. So his acts have a combination of music and humor, which that sort of intersection is a superpower. And the third is actually the character played by Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting. And it's interesting that uh, it came up in the conversation with Viral Doshi as well as a movie that he suggests that people watch, especially when they are looking at a career in mathematics. Net net. Lots for me to reflect on as I think about my journey, but hopefully some of what he said provoked you as well to think about your journey differently. One final message before we wrap up. This podcast is one of the many things we do to help you play to your potential. If you went to playtopotential.com, you will find other resources like the book I spoke about, a journal, crafting a full Life, and many other resources that you might find helpful in you playing to your potential. Thank you so much for your attention and listening. Bye now.