Breaking Free from Corporate Life: A Journey into Sustainable Entrepreneurship with Laura Harnett of Seep

Speaker A: I just thought, right, well, given my background, given that I am now up and, uh, taking risks, you know, one of the worst things has happened to me already and, um, I want to do something very different with the next 20 years. Like, why not, if not me, then why not me?

Speaker B: On today's episode of Careers Unwrapped, really excited to have with me Laura Harnett, who's the founder of ceap, a brilliant company dedicated to transforming the cleaning products market with sustainable innovations. Recently featured on Dragon's Den. And we'll come on to that now. Laura's career spans so much. Major retailers, consultancy, investment and much more. And she's also a passionate advocate for female entrepreneurs and founders. So I don't know how we're going to fit all of this into one conversation today, but hopefully Laura's going to share her experiences, building deep her, uh, insights maybe on her viewpoint around entrepreneurship and investment and also what just keeps driving her on. So welcome to the show, Laura.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me on.

Speaker B: I think first of all, the name of your business, Steep. Where did that come from? What was the inspiration background to that?

Speaker A: So my husband's a doctor and he absolutely loves acronyms. He thinks all acronyms are great. I don't necessarily agree, but I was thinking about the business and we were on holiday and I, uh, was like, you know, what can I call it? And he said, you know, sustainable every day, essential products. And then what he hadn't actually realized was that it spelled see at the time, and then I was like, seep. And then it's four letters, which I really love. It actually represents kind of the circularity of our product. So all of our kind of sponges and cloths are designed to break down at the end of life and go back to the soil. And it works, you know, it seeps into your everyday routine. So actually it works on quite a few levels. But yeah, he inspired it basically.

Speaker B: I remember actually the first grown up business I was starting and a one off conversation with a friend, he's like, oh, we should call it National Schools Partnership. And I said, no, no, we have to do this process properly. And so we sort of mapped out the audiences and what we thought they would get out of it. And we came out with different directions, did the branded work and ultimately after a couple of weeks of extra work, it was called National Schools Partnership. We could have saved a lot of time and effort with that. And now I'm interested really about how your career led you to this point because you've had exposure to many businesses and different sectors. And how did this area. Sustainable cleaning products, clean products that are designed not to damage the environment. How did you get to that point, that market, that product?

Speaker A: I think it all makes sense when you look back, but obviously you don't design it that way from the start, which I think is interesting. So I went to. I grew up in South Wales and I went to this for uh, the last two years at sixth form I went to this. It's been described as Hogwarts for hippies. It's a school called Atlantic College. And it basically makes. It's the thesis is that people, if you give kids great sort of exposure to the Asian problems in the world and you learn with each other from people from all over the world, then you can go on and change the world. So that was kind of fed my kind of wanting to do something that was a bit more mission driven. I then went and did. I had a sort of pretty traditional career I guess. So I kind of put all that aside and started off as a buyer for Compass, uh, groups that I was learning all about commerce, you know, how to strike a deal, sort of source product, negotiate margins. Then went into consulting again. It was all kind of consumer and retail businesses. And then went kind of from consulting into operator side again. It just felt like a sort of fairly logical route. Never ever thought I would set up my own business. I was raised, you know, my parents worked for the local authority and one was a teacher. No one in my family were entrepreneurs. It was the sort of thing that I was told was the most risky thing I could possibly do. It was the thing that, you know, only if you were mad or had lots of money to burn. Uh, but actually I got to a point where I was basically diagnosed with breast cancer in my late 30s. It gave me this wonderful moment of pause. Obviously it's not wonderful, but it gave me the space. And I described sleep as my silver lining. I, I spotted the opportunity in the market because I wanted to reduce the amount of toxins in my kitchen, in my house. The only thing I couldn't seem to swap was a, uh, kind of washing up sponges, you know, those horrible green and yellow ones. And it was really hard to find some and then sort of waited for somebody else to come along and do it and no one did. And I just thought, right, well, given my background, given that I am now up for taking risks, you know, one of the worst things has happened to me already and um, I want to do something very different with the next 20 years. Like why not? If not me, then why not me? And, you know, in a very. So it all makes sense when you look back, but it felt really scary at the time.

Speaker B: And, um, you say this felt scary, but obviously at the time you were thinking about it, you were dealing with something that was just a lot more scary in terms of your breast cancer there. Do you think that if you hadn't had that forced time out, you would still have got the business going?

Speaker A: No. Honestly, no. And so I went through my treatment. I was working at Selfridges at the time. They're an iconic retailer. They were fantastic. I went back to Selfridges after my treatment. But that kind of moment of pause, you just lose the fear of so much. You know, before, I had this huge fear of ever losing my job, of ever running out of money or, you know, so it was always, keep your head down, work hard and you'll be fine, you'll make it through retirement. And then something like this happened, you know, sort of something like some health issue happens and that fear, which I think really holds you back from doing something a bit more risky, you know, sort of disappears. And so I think. I really don't think I would be doing what I'm. I'm doing now if it wasn't for it. And so it's. Instead of. Ironically, obviously, I wish I'd never had it, but in some ways it was a good thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm much, much lower level. I had been managing director of two businesses and then I was made redundant from the second one of them. And that's the point at which I started up my first business after that. And I do want to sometimes, if that redundancy hadn't happened, if I'd have had the bravery, with two children at the time and my wife soon pregnant with our third, I wonder if I'd have had the bravery to make the jump from a solid job paying a good salary to doing something on my own. So whilst, you know, I can't remember what you went through on a health level, I do have an understanding a little bit of that trigger, that break, that forced activity. Do you think having gone through and come out the other end of those health challenges as well, it's made you different in any form as a leader, as a manager, somebody who deals with other people, because obviously it was a big change in your life in terms of career and direction and setting up your own business. What about you as a career person as well?

Speaker A: I think that was more about the move from corporate. So from working in big Corporates and all of the kind of governance and how long decisions take and the kind of atmosphere that typically is in a big business, you know, which is, you know, incremental changes. So I think, you know, that's very much how I was trained, you know, in all of my roles. It was very much problem solving. But you've got to get consensus and sign off for these decisions and you're eking out the percentages, right? That's, you know, from every year. And don't stick your neck out too much because you might get noticed and make sure that. So I think that was how that what I was used to working with and I think I was pretty good at operating in that environment. But it does close your brain, you know, it does make you less brave and not necessarily see sort of really big opportunities alongside, because that's not how these big juggernauts work. And then I think I have changed, you know, so when you've got, you know, a budget of two pound fifty to, well, you know, I'm exaggerating very little sort of money team, you know, I've learned how to hustle very late in my career and I'm always trying to think about how can I extract something out of an opportunity. And it probably drives my team mad. Uh, you know, I'm always going like, but did you ask if we can get a bigger discount? And so I think it has changed how I operate and probably how I manage the team as well.

Speaker B: I think it's interesting listening to how you've described some of the skills you need now as ones you were helped with in your early career. So things like deal making and margin negotiation and then other things you've had to learn after corporate life, like that sense of hustling. What are the other skills that you think the corporate life gave you that actually have been an asset in going your own way with ceap?

Speaker A: I think there's so much that I've learned and so basic things like project management was a kind of art. You know, there was a huge team that we had in Selfridges that was kind of managing this huge program, hundreds of people with spreadsheets and trackers and identifying the kind of, you need critical points in the decisions. And, you know, actually it's exhausting working in that kind of environment. But actually there is, if I take a small element of that and put it into startup life, actually it is quite good to have some sort of structure. So, you know, we're looking at how we launch into Amazon Europe at the moment. It's actually quite complicated, you know, like certifications, do we need like tax translations? And actually if you're just going at it sort of fairly randomly trying to problem solve, it's quite hard to get forward momentum. Whereas I think so project management in its simplest form I think is a very useful skill set, particularly when you're trying to make something happen. I think communication, that has been massively important. So how do you sell an idea? You know, that's something that I've had to do at all the stages in my career, especially in consulting. You know, you're being brought in because they don't know the answer to something or it's tricky to land with the board. So you're often brought in to come up with all the evidence and get a decision over the line. And so I think that has come in helpful when I'm raising money, you know, so sort of raising investment, how do I pitch? And so in corporate life it's an idea or a project and now it's the sort of entire business and me effectively that I'm now pitching.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think like you, I set up my main businesses after having gained experience working in other environments, some of them very different, like the army and others in sort of medium sized business. But I, I'm often left quite in awe when on this program and see people who started their business from scratch, age 22, 23, without any of that experience to go back on. It's amazing.

Speaker A: It's amazing that they've done it. I mean, I'd say the last thing is this kind of gut feeling that having been through lots of scenarios where things have gone wrong, you know, a stock consignment hasn't turned up or the IT website stop working. I have an inner sense or I have a sort of, I guess healthy skepticism that something is probably not going to work. And I think that has also evolved. And um, I am always amazed. So in a way it probably also holds me back. Now I'm worried I can already see or foresee the things that could go wrong. And so sometimes I think that's probably something that makes me less brave than someone who probably hasn't seen it in their 20s.

Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe on the flip side gives you a slightly higher chance of getting the decision right as well. It's all a balance. It's all a tricky balance. You mentioned investment. How did CEAP start from an investment perspective? Where did the initial money come from to get the first few years momentum going?

Speaker A: So initially it was my money and so I Think that's why one of the huge advantages of being a slightly old, you know, well, not slightly. I am an older founder. Right. I set up in my late 30s, early 40s. And so I had money that I'd sort of very diligently put aside, you know, saved every year. And so that's what I used initially. And then, you know, some very kind family members also then chipped some money in which, again, I recognize not everyone has that, that they can turn to their parents or whatever, to a bit of money into their business. But that's what ultimately gave me the opportunity to kind of put my first order in, hire my first person to help. And that's why I feel like, you know, there's a lot of people out there that, you know, actually those are people that start with nothing, you know, don't even have. But they've started so small and then have built. I've just so much respect for them.

Speaker B: And you must have therefore had conversation. You mentioned your husband a moment ago, conversations with him that, okay, the money that we've saved, that I've saved, that may be set aside for the rainy day future, or there are plans for it and we're going to use it on sustainable cleaning products, on a batch of sponges. Yeah. How much was just. The backing was just there and how much was. Right. There's an internal business plan. Actually, this is going to be my hardest audience of all because this is money that we saved in the family.

Speaker A: So, I mean, my husband's unbelievably supportive and is the most positive person I think I've ever met. He's always just like, of course you're gonna go and do it. Of course you're gonna succeed. It was less of a conversation. I mean, it was a conversation with him. But, like, our, uh, finances aren't all completely intertwined. And so I had saved, you know, from a young age. And he's got his pot, I've got my pot, and my pot was what m. I initially put in. That was my money. And then he put in a little bit afterwards. But, yeah, it's been a family effort because while I was in my corporate roles, I was able to support the family. You know, I was bomb. Um, I was the main earner for a while. And that has had to flip because I'm now the lowest paid in my business. And so, thankfully, again, I'm very lucky to have a husband who is able then to support the family while I go and build my sponge empire.

Speaker B: And then what was your next Investment round or investment level after savings, family and friends. Have you had to go out again for next levels or was the very next level? I mean, we're speaking about a week after your, uh, Dragon's Den appearance was aired. Was there investment in between those two?

Speaker A: Yeah, there was investment about 18 months ago. I knew that I had to kind of rebrand, repackage because, uh, the breakthrough really was to get onto the shelves of Tesco. So we're now available in Tesco and Ocado. And I knew that what I had was fine to sell on a website, but it just wouldn't break through. And so I knew I needed some cash and we wanted to do some product development. So I went out to some angel investors. We got a couple of small funds that one particular that backs kind of female founders and impact businesses. And they made a huge difference because instead of it being kind of small numbers, small tickets, they gave sort of a bigger chunk. And I think it's probably the hardest thing that I do is raise investment because you're having to pitch, you have to, you know, a lot of due diligence. It takes up a lot of my time. And so that was our first kind of formal sort of institutional round.

Speaker B: We often see the investors side of this, especially the program you've just been on, that they're judging the businesses, they're worth their potential. From the owner and founder's perspective, how did you choose or decide that the, uh, investors were the right people and the right money for you? What were you looking for, aside from just obviously some money?

Speaker A: So there are two things really, ones that share my ethics and so can see the opportunity, want to make a difference in the world, you know, so we're a B corp. I don't know if, you know, you can cross B corps, but we are like, I fundamentally believe businesses should be a force for good. So as a B corp, we've had to kind of in our league, founding legal document say that we have to look after profit, but as well as profit people on planet as well. And so for me, having investors that fundamentally believe in that is really important. And then the second thing is having investors and not all of them, you know, we've got friends and family, not all of them have what I'm, um, about to say. But it's the ability to make a difference to our business. It's an intro that I wouldn't normally be able to get. It's a connection, it's advice. And even with the experience I've got having other people that I can ask about their opinion, saying, I'm about to make this decision. It's not for everything, but it's for sort of certain important milestones. I do sort of quarterly investor updates and I always include asks, what can you do to help me? And sometimes can you review Old Gloves on Tesco? But often it's other things. It's, does anyone know someone in, you know, I don't know, interiors that could help? So those are the two things. You just need as many people in your corner as possible.

Speaker B: I think that is so true. When I first took outside investment in, I got it wrong. I actually really enjoy, strangely almost masochistic. I really enjoy pitching for investment. I get a kick out of it. But the first investors I took in, I just thought offered the money. I was great, I need the money. So I took them. And they were the wrong people for me. They weren't bad people at all. They were just the wrong group of people for me. And in the end, I bought them all back out about two years after that, which I knew I had to do within about six months, but it took me two years to be able to afford by borrowing from the bank to buy those investors out. And I think it's something that I have learned so much from then the money's one thing, and in fact, if your idea and your plan is good enough, you will get more than one offer of money. And so you've really got to be thinking about the type of people that you want to be bringing into that. And you obviously were thinking about that anyway, in advance. And then more recently, you went on Dragons Den, which is obviously an investment route, but also it's a huge marketing route as well. I'd love to know the whole process, but we don't have time. But once you were selected to be on the program, what for you was the process like after that, between that selection and then actually walking into the Den?

Speaker A: So, like, the number one reason I did it was brand awareness. And so this message that we constantly have to tell, which is, the green and yellow sponges are made from plastic. They release microplastic. There's something better out there. That's our sort of reason for being. And I was like, this is the opportunity to tell 5 million people that for free. Other than my me being unbelievably nervous and uncomfortable and hating the whole process, that's the only cost to it. And so that's why I did it. And so the prep for it was all about, how do I tell that message in the most effective way possible to the people who are at home watching. And so I did a lot of preparation into the Den thinking about, like, what are the key messages, trying to anticipate all of the kind of tricky questions, which, uh, obviously there always are, ah, about, you know, sort of finances or, you know, what else it could ever. Anything else it could be. And you have to just rehearse your pitch a lot. So I think I was as prepared as I possibly could have been. And then that's recorded seven and a bit months ago. And then you have to sit on it knowing that you've got this thing that's going out. But know what, you can't re record anything. You don't see any of the edits, so you have absolutely no idea what's going to air until it airs. And so I'd say I probably was marginally successful, not that successful at guiding it to that end. You know, I wanted it all to be about the storytelling and the backstory and the products and that. And they edit the book, make good tv. Right. And that's what you have to just accept.

Speaker B: And did you do rehearsals? I mean, not with them, but with friends, with your husband. Did you have anybody role playing, the questions you might be asked?

Speaker A: Yeah, the sort of couple of days running up to it was a lot of rehearsing. So you have to learn a script off by heart because it has to be vetted by the BBC in terms of claims. But it was also, you know, with the team. So I got the team to be the Dragons and I obviously know where all the difficult questions were, what they're likely to be, and so very grateful that they prepared me.

Speaker B: And talking about the Dragons, you received some investment, if I'm right. One of the investors was Deborah Meaden, who actually has appeared on Careers Unwrap last year. But how did it then go through, who's invested and how much money they put in and what happens after the show in terms of due diligence before they actually sign on the dotted line.

Speaker A: Yeah. So we got investment from, um, the two Dragons that I was desperate to get, which was Deborah Mead and Trinny. So Trinny Woodall, who was the guest Dragon, has built a sort of 200 million dollar beauty business in not very long at all. So obviously really knows her stuff. And so once you do the deal, you know, it was at the end of the evening, I had to get back to London. It's all filmed in Manchester and then you kind of don't hear anything for a while and then the due diligence happens. Actually, a lot of that due diligence had already been done by the BBC, so all of the documents were there. And ultimately it's a decision by them and us about whether you really want to go through with it still. And so for me, it was actually, would I rather be building this business, you know, David versus Goliath, and have two amazing, formidable dragons that know what they're doing behind me, or am I going to continue to try and do it on our own with the team? So my decision was to, uh. Yeah, I wanted them on my side.

Speaker B: And, uh, what do you think they bring to your side, aside from the investment? What are those two women as individuals bringing?

Speaker A: I think they bring two very different things and some of it overlaps. So for Deborah, she's super experienced, she's seen it all. She's very pragmatic in her advice. So she's already done, um, that. And she's very, very good at. So far, you know, it's still quite early days, but she knows a lot of people. And so I'd like to get a set of samples, we call them love boxes, like these products out to this person. Do you know them? And she's like, absolutely, you know, send it to me and I'll forward them on. Or I want an intro into qvc. And she's been able to do that. So that's Deborah. And a lot of the feedback I've had from founders who have accepted her. Huh. You know, have brought her on as an investor. Investor would back that up. And then for Trini, it's her, you know, it's her audience. So her audience is just phenomenal. She's got an incredible team who we've already sort of tapped up for advice. And she set up a business in her early 50s, I think. She said she went to 200 investors to try and raise the money, the seed money for Trini London. And she said one of them invested, and that was the deal of the century for those guys. And actually, someone who's been through it, there aren't that many women, British women, who have set up a business as successful as hers in such a long time. And so having some of that shared to be shared is just amazing.

Speaker B: Now, there's some incredible boardroom or shareholder firepower behind you there. And you mentioned female investors and founders a couple of times. I know that there's an organization or group that you are connecting, involved with called Angel Academy, which really does focus on, um, female investors and female founders. Could you tell us a little bit about it and what you've done with it in the past done with them.

Speaker A: So Angel Academy are an angel syndicate. So for those that don't know, a syndicate is basically a small group of people that all co invest together, together. And Angel Academy are a group of predominantly women, but some men, but that invest in female founders. And so one of the numbers that I always think dazzles people is that I think it's something like less than 2% of investment in the UK into early stage businesses goes into female founded businesses. And so 2% and it's gone backwards in recent years. And so money is predominantly in the hands of men, especially at uh, sort of the top of the sort of l, they call them LPs who then invest in these funds. And so it means that it's just harder, like statistically harder for us to raise, you know, and some of that is down to the kinds of businesses we're building, but not all of it. And so I got to know the whole startup world and investment world by being an angel investor very small time when I was in Selfridges and that's how I started to learn about how do you raise money, how do you run things on a shoestring. And so I learned a huge amount from that. And then since then I've come across a lot of other organizations now who are all trying to do the same thing. So there's one called Female Founders Rise, run by Emmy Faust. And she has built this incredible community for female founders, connecting them with each other, connecting them with investors, giving them great advice. There's Sea Ventures. So there is this movement now in the UK and probably beyond to try and change that 2% number. And I think there's been various reviews done by government about the actual benefits for the UK economy of men getting investments.

Speaker B: I think it's such important and critical work, uh, that all of those groups are doing. I wasn't aware of the under 2% value. I knew it was small, but not that small. And I've mentioned on Careers Unwrap before that I'm one of three brothers, middle boy. All three of us run our own businesses. And we're all convinced that the sort of catalyst for that was that our mother ran her own businesses, a collection of beauty sounds in and around Somerset when we were growing up. So it normalized to us these conversations and these business habits because we heard it just from her all of the time. So anything that's being done now to drive support for investment in female founders is just really Important. But also, as you said, it adds such value to UK PLC as well.

Speaker A: It does. And I have to say that a last organization that I wanted to talk about was something called By Women Built. So B U Y By Women Built. And it set up to shine a light on female founded consumer businesses. So not everyone can invest in women, not everyone can mentor women, but people can buy products and champion them in other ways. And so, you know, I think the stat they shared is they went into a primary school and asked at primary and secondary school, I think it was, can you, these kids, like how many of you can name a female entrepreneur? And it was something like 80 odd percentage couldn't name a single female entrepreneur but they could name male entrepreneurs. And so like you're lucky your mum was your role model. But for so many kids out there, they don't have them. You can't be what you can't see. Right. So I think hopefully all of that will make a difference.

Speaker B: Now in this conversation we've covered a lot of the entrepreneurial journey and I think it's really, hopefully interesting for anyone listening who's got a seed in the back of their mind of at some point they want to take their own lead, do their own thing. But it's not all smooth sailing, it's certainly not all easy. I'm interested to know from the perspective of your work at ceap, what are the one or two things now with hindsight that you wish you'd done differently or what went wrong that you've now learned from in the journey so far?

Speaker A: I think there are a couple. So one is a very specific product issue. So we're all about kind of plastic free alternatives that don't really use microplastics. We wanted to sort like, sort of create a cloth in the very early days that was a bit like a microfiber, but all made of natural materials. Um, and you know, we set the specification, we went to the factory and then a sort of six months later we had a sort of new lady in our team who really knew what she was doing and she kind of felt the product and she was like, something tells me that there's something else in this. We sent it off to be tested and found out that there was. It wasn't very much, but it was like 2% polyester that was acting as a binder, which is obviously plastic, but acting as a binder for these fibers. And so devastating, you know, because we're like, we've misled, you know, we've told all these people that this is plastic free. And so we sort of did a big email out to tell people. But I think the lesson learned was do your research and ask, uh, again, especially in the sustainability world, basically you need to be convinced that you are buying or what you're getting, what you're thinking that you're getting, and don't take it as face value because often it's, it's not even the person you're buying it off, it's somewhere further up the supply chain that's, um, misunderstood. So that was a sort of big moment. And I think one of the other things was probably finding specialists early. That's what we should have done. So you're kind of tempted to build a team with because you've got no money. So you kind of recruit the sort of most junior person you, you possibly can and tell them to figure all this stuff out. And they do that. Absolutely. Try their best, but they're making it up as much as you are. And um, I think what I've learned is actually having sort of fractional specialists. You know, you're buying, you know, sort of paying with them for a few days of their time, but they might look more expensive, but actually overall they can get the job done far better and far more efficiently. So I think those are probably the two of the things that we've learned the hard way.

Speaker B: And to conclude, I'd be interested if we had, let's say, a room full of budding entrepreneurs sitting in front of both of us, people who maybe have an idea or don't yet have the idea, but have a determination. If you could bottle up all of your experience now and say, look, these are the two things that I would focus on getting better at or I would focus on getting right to somebody who's thinking, I want to go my own way, what advice might you pass on to them?

Speaker A: I think one of them would be immerse yourself and learn as much as you possibly can. And so there are a lot of things that, uh, you know, I knew some things, I'd had experience some things and there's a lot, but I didn't. So I hadn't had a sort of specific marketing role before I'd gone. I'd joined C, and so I got the books, I listened to the top 10 podcasts in marketing, you know, the sort of social media specialists, everything else, and just lived, immerse myself so that I could absorb as much as I possibly could. And I think that is something, um, identify what you don't know and learn and um, if you can't do it. So there are certain things like I don't know if it's finance, you know, it's pretty difficult to learn and do it yourself. Find a set of, you know, if it's really early doors, just some people that can advise you for free because they want to help out an entrepreneur. It's amazing how far that gets you and surround yourself by people who really want to help. Because that is one of the big differences when you're in a big corporate. Very few people really want to help you and your big corporate make more money for a shareholder. But actually someone who's got a great idea that's better for people on planet and who genuinely want to learn that actually. So I would say learn and get great advisors around you. I think those would be the two things. And just be prepared to take little risks and iterate. It's something again that you don't tend to learn to do in big corporates. You do big things that kind of move the needle a bit. Whereas I think learn, you know, just testing something simple.

Speaker B: I would agree so much with those. I think you're immersing yourself there at peace. People will expect you to be the expert in your topic or your subject when you walk into the room, whether you're trying to sell, whether you're trying to gain investment, you've absolutely got to know everything about your market, your customer, your competitors. And so that immersion is so important. I think the one I'd probably add to that would be about a, uh, sort of be prepared to be in the right sort of mental state because there will be mistakes, there will be fails, nothing will go exactly as you planned it from the beginning. And if you can accept that that is going to happen, you won't get freaked out when it does and you'll hopefully be in a better state to be able to deal with it. I think there's just been so much to take out of this from not just those points and lessons at the end there, but the things that you learned along the way, before you started out and you're in the deal making the margin negotiation that if you do work in other companies and other lines of work before you start your own business, you will have picked up skills that will help you along the way. So think about what they are. The healthy skepticism I liked as well within that. And I think there's always a balance between the optimism you need to keep pushing forward and the skepticism that makes you understand it's not all going to fly in the way that you want. I was also interested in everything we discussed about the type of investors you get in. The money is important, obviously, if you need it for the next stage, but the people are equally important. And you knew that and I learned it the hard way. And so that really does matter. And at the end as well, the organizations you've mentioned there about the by Women Built Angel Academy as well and others. So listeners do research those organizations, look into what's happening there about women funders, women founders, women investors, and how to best get involved with and network with people in that sort of area as well. So Laura, that's been amazing. So much covered in such a short space of time and and here's to the next few years of CEAP and really building on the success you've done so far. Thank you really very much for coming on Careers Unwrap.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. Mark this podcast is sponsored by We Are Futures. To find out more about We Are Futures and how we can introduce your brand, business or organization to the mass markets of tomorrow, visit www.wearefutures.com. make sure to subscribe Search for careers unwrapped in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else podcasts are found. Remember to click subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. On behalf of the team here at We Are Futures, thanks for listening.