Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Jamie Durling - Business Transformation & Growth

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Welcome to the next episode of Decoding aq again live from Vegas, our, uh, series here. This is um, my fourth recording for the day and with me I have Jamie Durling, another New Yorker. He is the strategic operating officer and he's a HR executive. Welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thanks so much.

Speaker B: All right, so as a strategic operating officer, uh, and a HR executive, you've been really, uh, dealing with transformation, cultural change and led lots of large scale projects in luxury retail, uh, and trade shows, media and people's strategies that really deliver sustainable growth. So I'm going to be excited to dive into. What does that actually really mean? Uh, and let's start with you told me you were on a panel earlier today. Tell me a bit more about that panel, James.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, I was reached out to by the folks here at Transform and they thought that my participation in this panel on adaptability and change would be interesting given my history and my past. And it was fascinating to be a part of it. We really talked about from a personal space.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Uh, personal experiences that we had with going through change and adapting during periods of change ourselves and how scary that could be. Ah. Uh, and we told some really personal stories and it was quite impactful because the audience related to what it was that we were saying. Okay. So it was less academic and more real life. More real life in our reality, lived experience 100%.

Speaker B: So your story, was it of interest, was it a change that you chose or was it a change that chose you?

Speaker C: It was not a change that I chose. It was a change that chose me. Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: So tell me more, more about that.

Speaker C: So a number of years ago I was, uh, I've always thought of myself as a somewhat decent HR professional. Yep. Uh, and I was in my first complete head of HR role for a company and I was called into my boss's office, uh, the CEO and he said, Jamie, I'm going to make you responsible for two and a quarter lines on the P and L. So I've seen a P and L before, but being responsible for lines on the P and L, that's never happened. I never had that responsibility.

Speaker B: In a HR role.

Speaker C: In an HR role. Okay, interesting. And of course there were areas that, that I could influence, but really being responsible for managing the numbers and the data, not so much. Uh, and I was scared out of my mind. Uh, and I didn't know what that meant. I was not unclear as to what he wanted me to manage. Uh, I asked some clarifying questions. Uh, I actually asked the audience earlier today who has, in the audience, in the audience who has nodded during the meeting and in like acknowledgement that they understand something while they're actually at the same time googling, what does it mean, uh, what does it mean for HR to manage part of a P and L? Yeah, but, but I did, uh, and I understood what he meant. The personnel costs which we had for corporate and then for retail because I work in a retail, uh, organization as well as the, the non personnel operating costs, uh, for the organization and I, it was scary. I was scared out of my mind. I'm not a math person. I'd never managed, you know, I managed a budget. But yeah, now, you know, now I'm very, very different. Uh, and you know, now it's the ups and the downs. So the, you know, as, as we do more, as we grow, do I need to drive with more fte? How do I balance the personnel costs with the actual EBITDA that we're generating and, and, and the profitability of the business? And so I knew nothing about this and I engaged my Good Foods now of my closest friends, the CFO of the company and who by the way, all HR executives should make their CFO 100%.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: The two of you will rule the world, or at least the organization.

Speaker B: And if you're hearing the music in the background, they've just turned it up here. So I apologize if we can't edit all of that out, but we'll do our best.

Speaker C: And he, he gave me a masterclass.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: The same way that I give him a master class on, um, how to navigate certain employees on his team and manage the performance and manage sensitive situations and relationships. We're not used to that in hr. We're usually giving it, not receiving it. And so he did and I trusted him. There was psychological safety with him and he trained me. And then I applied my understanding of the commercial business. Yep. Uh, in managing what is productivity in the retail organization. Actually any sales driven organization. And wound up developing an expertise in this and going from something that scared the daylights out of me.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going, what is this actually written?

Speaker C: What does it mean? How do I do it?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, to now teaching other people how to do it. Now being on this podcast and answering your question on change and adaptability. But I was scared and I leaned into that. Ah.

Speaker B: I think it's true for many that when we face something that we're unfamiliar with Perhaps we don't have the capability yet. Is an instant response is fear and excitement.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: That duality, those things depending on your state. What is your current state? Are you fearful for your value, for your contribution, or is this an extension of your value and contribution? How you then respond to that will be situational. Right. So I guess by the sounds of it, you had quite a safe environment to ask questions, to be able to explore, able to figure that out, and able to learn who was supportive through that. Um, has there been situations that you've been in where that hasn't been the case? You had an expectation put on you, but then not the resources or support around to help you gain that capability?

Speaker C: For sure. Uh, there have many, many, uh, I mean, a number of, uh, situations across my career.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: And, you know, if I think of one that is more recent, let's say over the past couple of years, it was frankly, achieving a percentage of payroll without increasing the FTE of the corporate office, even though the number of employees in the organization and the number of points of sale in the organization were increasing substantially.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker C: And do more with less. Do more with less.

Speaker B: We've heard it.

Speaker C: And, you know, I'm concerned about burnout of my employees. Uh, I'm really concerned about the burnout. And so I draw, I push them to perform. I want them to be productive. Yeah. That's what I'm doing about the bottom line. But there is a limit. So this is where I say, oftentimes I'm living with a devil and an angel on my shoulder, because I want you to do more with less, but at the same time, I don't want you to burn out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, so that was frustrating. And to be very transparent with you is impossible. So what I did was I said, here is what. Regardless of whether or not I got the support or not and the resources that I needed, I put the business case together, I put a plan together, a proposal for, you know, the functions and the departments that needed the headcount increase and what the impact on the P and L would be and the cost, given my recent somewhat quasi expertise on this. Uh, and I partnered closely with my finance colleague, uh, and ultimately didn't get what I requested. But what I did, though, was I was very factual in the need and I connected all the dots so nobody could say I didn't try.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I didn't make the effort. Uh, and, you know, and that's what I did so that, you know, in that situation, for me, I was able to go to bed at Night knowing I did the best you could do.

Speaker B: So what happens next? How do you feel about that? So does that inspire you to be more creative, to find the alternative solution, to stick to this is what I need and try different ways to convince to evidence to get a different decision, or no, I've got to find new alternative solutions within those constraints or this isn't for me. What were some of the sort of thoughts that were going on? Maybe all of the above in seconds and minutes.

Speaker C: 100%.

Speaker B: What was going on?

Speaker C: It's a good question. So certainly not. This isn't for me. Uh, because it was for me. I, I documented the journey and even though I was told, uh, that we weren't going to be able to invest in that function or in that, in that courage, the corporate office, I, um, took it as a challenge.

Speaker B: So was the documentation to be able to reflect learning, give you the nuances of the challenge of where could I go, I've done this, or was it to cover myself? What was the motivation?

Speaker C: No, it was part of the convincing. It was part of the storytelling. Here's what we needed. This is what it is for the interoperability for the audience or for my CEO. Here's how I got there. So we need x number of FTE additional corporations, 100%. And here are the numbers and here's where we need to go. Uh, but I was being at that moment a little too, I was being too traditional in my thought process. Interesting. And what into your, to your question, it made me think, all right, well, we still need to achieve these goals and we need support. How can we do it?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So then I leaned onto, you know, well, what if we don't have committed expense, uh, in terms of personnel, but it's more transitional expense, uh, with temporary employees or outsourcing, some of the support that is needed. And ultimately we went with the outsourcing. And was it done the way that I would have preferred it at the

Speaker B: end of the day?

Speaker C: No, I would have preferred to have our own employees who understood the culture. But at the end of the day, we were able to accomplish a whole lot. Earlier today, when I had my panels, in my session, I said one of the best lessons that I learned was that from my first boss was, uh, that Jamie, you need to know you're a perfectionist, but you need to know when 80% is good enough. And so in a situation like this where I knew that we needed to really keep our EBITDA strong and we were not in a position yet to invest too much I knew it was the right thing to do and, uh, it was the right approach. And so I slept well at night.

Speaker B: Yeah, I guess comes with the maturity of cascading effects and consequence. Often when we operate in our little silo. No, no, this needs to be this way, this way we can't necessarily see the outer consequence in the three steps down the line to a decision here. Um, and it's about understanding those linkages and then coming to terms with them. I remember my, uh, my coach talks about creativity and resources. It was entrepreneurial world of, you know, if you can write a check for it, you've got a project. If you can't write a check for it, you've got a creative opportunity. And that really dawned on me as a thing where, you know, constantly that frustration of more with less, you know, never having enough resource to going, that is the mother for innovation. That is the creative opportunity to think different ways, to attack it from a new perspective, to take it as a challenge, not as a. Oh, well, they didn't listen to me. Don't they know I've, uh, got the right answers here to go? How might we do. What does that do? So I live with a.

Speaker C: What you're saying is deciding. And a wise man said this to me yesterday. Are you a, ah, creator or a victim?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And in that moment I decided I was not going to be a victim, I was going to be a creator, uh, and try to do the impossible, which really wasn't that impossible. I just needed to shift my frame of mind. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: So how true is that that you witness the experience for people you serve, uh, in the organizations, they're going through transformation, going through changes, but perhaps their perception of reality, of how things should be done, that they're wedded to because they've had an applause, they've had success, they've got a, um, level of experience or knowledge in that. And you're asking them to do it differently, think differently, find other solutions. Um, having lived the experience you just lived, has that changed the way you design programs or the way you facilitate transformation and change in business?

Speaker C: I would say it's not necessarily changed the way that I go about doing it. It's just. It is reinforced.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's reinforced. I believe with any change, it is important to bring people along for the ride and to fill them in as much as you can. It's about communication at the end of the day.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: I've learned this with employees, with leaders, people who I've reported to, people who have reported to Me, uh, and people who I've been responsible for, um, it is about communicating with them, uh, and being transparent. Authentically transparent, uh, is critical. And so people, ultimately employees, may ultimately not like what they're hearing. They will either consciously or unconsciously appreciate the candor and the transparency you may be. You may not only bring them along for the ride, you may gain an advocate.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Over time with the change. And you may not, but they're aware of it, so they're not. The rug is not being pulled out from underneath us.

Speaker B: I think it's an important point you made about that transparency about communication. But it's a challenging thing, Right, because as you mentioned, when you heard that change that was choosing you, we nod. We then try and Google to understand and, uh, the concept of, you know, selective attention. Our eyes only see and our ears only hear what our brain's looking for. So when you communicate authentic, transparently, they'll see it and hear it through their own lived experience of I'm fearful for my mortgage this week or for my job or what I might be next week or this happening with my family. And so that news, that information, authentic and transparent, comes to me. But my interpretation, my story, my manifestation might mean dig in. It might mean jump on.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: Of those things. Do you have any ways in which you. When you're dealing with change, which is a traumatic, uh, process. Right. Uh, of going through familiar to unfamiliar, where you, uh, nuance that communication to the person or to the audience or to the situation? Or is that a utopia that doesn't really exist? What's been your thought about that? Is that valuable or not valuable?

Speaker C: See, I think it's all about the perspective that people have on what change is. And I sincerely see change as opportunity. Not every.

Speaker B: You have that, you know, neural net change. Is opportunity, change going to be good in the end or it can be good. Can be good. Yeah.

Speaker C: It's not going.

Speaker B: So that's your mindset, your energy, your data points that you bring to the table.

Speaker C: What are the benefits? What are the risks? You know, and how do we. How do we change?

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: With emphasis on M. The benefits and being aware of what the risks are. Uh, and mitigating the risks. Exactly. That's how I approach it and that's how I engage the population and actually also speak with my superiors about it. Because that's. Everybody's feeling at the same point, feeling the same.

Speaker B: You come across communities in past organizations or current organizations that are wired in the reverse that they have the neural net that said, oh, each Time change happened. I went down the snake, not went up the ladder. Uh, on the Snakes and Ladders game of life. That. Okay. I've really got a trauma around change. You're this optimist. People use this word.

Speaker C: You're these, you know, I am an optimist. Yeah.

Speaker B: And hey, optimists.

Speaker C: High five.

Speaker B: We live longer. Double bonus. Not only do we live longer, we're happier along the way, but there are different situations, even for optimists, where, uh, it's hard to find a silver lining. It's hard to find those things, uh, in certain pictures. Right. Whatever that might be about loss of a loved one or of a relationship. That relationship could be a human or it could be a role. A loss of a role that I, you know, that was, you know, everything to me, um, can be a traumatic experience. And what we've found is that how do we support people through that process, that uncertainty of that duality of excitement. Is this going to be good? But also the others that are saying, I'm not sure about it. You know, I'm not in a place where I can handle that. I haven't got the capacity to deal with this new process, this new software, this new tool, this new expectation, this new responsibility. And where does. You know, HR obviously has to serve all of the above. Uh, and that is a challenge. That is a challenge.

Speaker C: We need to serve all of the above. But we cannot fix every scenario and every situation. We need to do the best that we can do. So in a situation like that, where, you know, you have an employee, you have a leader, a colleague, whatever it is, whomever it is, you know, feels that way or says, I'm not so, so, so sure. Uh, I'm not comfortable with this. I oftentimes will say, what is it that you need for me to feel more comfortable?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: What do you need for me in that situational? Because what one person would. Mary needs.

Speaker B: John may not need space, time. Uh, don't fix. Just listen. Whatever. All of this.

Speaker C: Whatever. Whatever it is, whatever you need. And I may not, uh, in engaging them that conversation and giving them that. My, uh, team or I, uh. You may not ultimately bring them all the way there, but we've at least in a. In an empathetic that provided a bridge, you know, Provided a bridge and giving them an opportunity to. To think about it.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: Take a beat.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then, you know, learn a little bit.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Come and help them across. But ultimately they've got to choose to cross it or not.

Speaker C: They're not. They're Going to cross it over the finish line themselves. So we're not doing it for them.

Speaker B: So as we come to the, uh, final pieces, is there a project that you're really excited about that's going to bring a new set of capabilities and reality for you in the same that you describe that change situation of, hey, what is it? Is there something that you foresee out there that is going to bring that same level of. This is interesting. This is exciting to see your horizon journey.

Speaker C: Another good question. Uh, I would say for sure. And it's a little bit more of what I've already become very passionate about and developed a. An expertise in or a specialty. I mentioned earlier that HR's BFF needs to be the CFO. Uh, okay. And I, I wholly believe that, uh, that needs to be the case. Um, there is an opportunity. It's sort of ironic. Not ironic, but it's the reality of why we're here. Transform is to transform what HR is doing and how we're operating and what, you know, with, with the business. And that is what we need to do. And I believe to my core that the HR function is a facilitator of the business.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Not necessarily a partner, but a facilitator of them. We help drive the business and taking a more, I would say being a driver and not a passenger to be more proactive. Not a victim, but a. But a facilitator.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: No. Um, that is the future of hr and that is the HR that a strong CEO will value, needs and needs. Especially now with the economy, the world economy that's going.

Speaker B: And so is it about those two entities understanding the two languages of each other? Because, you know, hr, it's about people. Everything's about people. Uh, finance, about P. L, about stakeholder value, those sorts of things. Um, HR understanding finance use case, business case and finance understanding people. Is that what that is of understanding those two languages? You said you were fortunate. You were able to get an education of, uh, what does this really mean? How do I present things? How do I position things differently? And did you in the same case help educate CFO on some of those things? Are they open to it? Are they not open to it? What does that really mean of becoming a best friend? Because it is probably, yes, going out for dinner and doing. Spending human time. But it was also about two languages being better understood by each other.

Speaker C: Yeah, there's two parts to that question. Uh, there is one for sure. There's a language component where each side needs to better understand the language and the words that are being used. Uh, and almost the algorithm.

Speaker B: Yeah, the decision making process that underpins that language.

Speaker C: Exactly. Uh, so for sure, there's an education component around the language and the infrastructure of that function within the organization, but there is also a component about ownership. And so we're not here to talk about the finance organization, we're here to talk about the HR organization. And I believe that once that education happens, we need to lean on people, whether it's finance, whether it's loved ones or partners, anyone. But, uh, to be able to solicit transparent people, feedback and guidance. So that is always going to be there. But we need to own the responsibility that we have. Uh, and if we really want to facilitate the business, it is not about leaning on everybody else. It's about owning it ourselves and then pulling in the resources around you when you need the support with the sounding board, but knowing that you really own it. And I do believe that is where the opportunity within hr, uh, really lies, uh, you know, with all of us at this, at this conference. And that's what I believe will make HR even more influential in how the business operates around us.

Speaker B: And m. So for you, if that's part of your soul's expression for Jamie, if I come to this part in my passage in my chapter, uh, is that for you doing that in your roles, uh, for Jamie, or is your sole expression to enable others in your position to be able to achieve that?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's enabling the organization. So it's not myself as well. You know, I had to learn this initially, but I'm, uh, a developer of people, and so I'd like to believe I built strong teams. I want my team to be able to do their jobs and not a micromanager.

Speaker B: So this is within your world to live this to.

Speaker C: I live it.

Speaker B: I fully express that. Uh, and who knows, maybe it could become, uh, a roadmap, a pathway for others to embrace that could become part of your own content, own book's own material of how to make your CFO your bff. I think that'd be a great title for a, you know, podcast for books of, you know, there's Chro's handbook on how to make your CFO your best budget at bff.

Speaker C: Yeah, and it's a. It's really about not just bringing people along for the ride, but allowing them to get behind a steering wheel using cars as analogies. Because I can't. I can't do everything, but I really, I. It brings joy to my life when I see other people grow and Excel. And so, uh, I hold other people accountable for doing their jobs, but I give them the skill set to be able to execute. And if they're willing, then that's the most fantastic thing.

Speaker B: I know you've got another session to go to. In all the episodes I've had, I asked one last question around curiosity.

Speaker C: Let's do it.

Speaker B: And it is. When was the last time you did something for the first time? And what was it?

Speaker C: I. I rode in a. A motorized bicycle for the first time up the Hudson river in New York.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So it was cheating a little bit because it was. It was battery power. Uh, it was electric. Uh, but I had never rode on the west side highway and the Hudson river west side Highway. Uh, and it was a. It was amazing because I don't know if I learned something new because I know how to ride a bike, but, uh, I definitely learned that I missed out on this amazing experience of, um, being on the water and seeing the scenery of New York from the outskirts. Uh, and it was kind of amazing. And so it was curiosity, and it didn't kill the cat. Uh, it actually inspired me to buy a bicycle.

Speaker B: Did it?

Speaker C: It's not a motorized bicycle. It's not an electric bicycle, but it definitely did.

Speaker B: It's interesting when I ask that question, people, uh, have this sort of challenge of, well, what was the last thing I did for the first time? And they might take it literally. And then they're overanalyzing, well, what would be a really good thing to say. And others can be the realization of doing something I've done before, but with new eyes. And it sounds like a bit of a combination of that. You've ridden a bike before. Yes. You went to a new. A new place, but you sounded like you described. You did it with new eyes. You see, uh, new things. And I think that's a beautiful way to live, is to go into relationships with new eyes. Um, yes, bring some of our experience, but also let their experience show up too, in a beautiful way. If people want to get in touch with you, if they're curious about maybe some more of digging in, of your journey, of how you've done that, um, how do they get in touch? What's the best way?

Speaker C: Send me a direct message on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: I'm M. On LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Uh, and I respond to all the messages.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Please reach out to me. Out. Reach. Reach out to me if you're interested.

Speaker B: Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for the time and look forward to keeping in touch for sure.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit Aqai IO to gain your personalized report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. Transforming the way people, teams and organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.