Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Alim A. Dhanji - Chief Human Resources Officer

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world. Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding aq. With me today from New York we have Alim Danji. He is well, from a mailroom boy who kept replacing himself with machines, who was the ex president of Adidas Canada and terms leading roles at Scotiabank and learning the art of diplomacy. With four years at kpmg, Alim now finds himself as a globally recognized HR leader with a fair bit of experience. We won't uh, go into age, but more than a couple of decades of experience. And now finds himself as the chro at Ah, TD Synx, which is an IT ecosystem powerhouse with over 24,000 team members and he's shaping high performance and inclusive cultures that fuel innovation and growth. He's also a Harvard Business School alum, he's board advisor on lots of different boards and firms and he aims to bring a strategic people first lens to global business leadership. So welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Ross.

Speaker A: So you've just come back from a leadership event in Budapest. Um, and what surprised you most about that experience?

Speaker B: Um, you know, it's always amazing when you get a couple hundred people who are passionate, um, and really motivated to make a difference and you bring them together around the topic of high performance and just let them riff. Um, the energy is palpable, especially you know, after a few years of hybrid ah, type of work and being cooped up in isolation. I really miss that kind of energy. And so um, three days of that just really filled my cup and made me really optimistic about the region and the talent that we have there.

Speaker A: And actually that links to something you've said before around some of the challenges that are on board's minds around leadership shortages about cultural change. And actually a unique advantage of companies, especially in the age of AI, is culture, is those relationships, is people connecting and coming together. I certainly miss it and um, thirst for it and want to be around other, other people. But it's hard to coordinate that. Right. There's a lot of logistics, especially to move large volumes of people to singular places. What's the real payoff when you're looking at that from a finance perspective that yes, it feels great for people. How do, how does that get justified when finance is tight?

Speaker B: So I think it's an investment and um, you know, it's that old tale where does a CFO look at learning and development as an investment or a cost? And it's those that Think about it as an investment where you truly get a return in the company because you're, you're um, investing in your people and therefore knowledge workers who are going to uh, collaborate better and learn from each other and continue to uh, improve their, their own performance and therefore the collective performance. So I don't, I don't think uh, it is a cost. I see it as an investment. Um, and, and I think that bringing people together, it creates stronger relationships which then helps accelerate velocity in an organization when you're trying to get something done. You know, we all want people to collaborate, but, but collaboration at its core requires trust. If someone lets you down, you're unlikely or lower probability that you're gonna trust them again and therefore collaboration starts to break down. So I think bringing people together is really powerful and an important way to uh, really start shaping performance and increasing velocity in an organization.

Speaker A: And you mentioned about the opportunity to just get them together and let them riff about about something. Lots of organizations have done this in the past. They're starting to do more of it. There was a, you know, one of our clients got uh, a team together and they hadn't been together for many years. And it's a, it's a big investment to do that. There's then this tendency to over plan, to over prepare and to fill that agenda with content. Content, content. In your experience and your corporate career path of doing these, what's the balance between just white space and facilitated sessions? Have you got some insights from your own experience of where those adaptations have really helped and what might be necessary now with a hybrid, uh, workforce or a remote workforce especially?

Speaker B: Yeah, so this might be the learning and development leader within me, but I kind of follow the 70, 2010 rule, which is 70% should be experiential. And uh, whether that's designing sessions that are interactive, um, panel based, um, maybe there are smaller workshops. We're actually tackling issues. There might be an intro to the session to get people inspired and sort of focused. But bringing people together, there's got to be purpose to that. Otherwise it could have just been a webinar or you know, an email. So it is really about getting people together and brainstorming, sharing their practices, telling their stories. So I think that's 70% of the session. Um, you know, 20% of it might be a little bit more, uh, readouts where we have keynote speakers that come in and share a point of view and inspire. Um, and 10% I would say might be a little bit more academic where uh, not to sort of point to finance, but it could be any function where we're really just taking state of nation and might be a little bit more PowerPoint heavy. Um, but I think finding that balance is really important. And within that 70%, I would also include all the um, dinners, um, and lunches and breakfast and what have you. Those events that let people just connect with each other a little bit more socially and talk about what's happening in life for them. Um, those are moments that have just unfortunately not been too common as we've moved to a hybrid work environment.

Speaker A: Can you share some of the key themes that you were thinking uh, about that you're focusing on? Because with a complex supply chain, with lots of challenges of a global uh, organization. How did you narrow down some of the themes for that specific or generally? What are some of the themes that you're focused on right now, specifically within leadership?

Speaker B: Yeah, we tend to take a very balanced view. Um, we're fortunate to be in an industry that is thriving. Um, we're experiencing great growth and so we're not on the side of uh, layoffs or restructuring. In that sense we're very optimistic. We're a very acquisitive company. Um, so we're often talking about how do we continue to grow in the markets that we're in. We're in 55 countries so there's great scale but there's still lots of fragmentation in the industry. So that creates an exciting opportunity for us. So we're always looking at how do we grow, how do we better um, uh, service our vendors, our partners, our customers, our overall IT ecosystem that is very important to us and we want to make sure that we are also servant leaders to the organization. And so how do we continue to become better and better leaders, uh, in a context of high performance? Um, and those are typically the three big platforms that we have in, in almost every leadership session that, that we have in within our regions and from

Speaker A: a perspective of equipping leaders for high performance and you've shared in the past, you know, some challenges around just leadership shortages in general. What are the um, challenges that some of the leaders are facing at the moment in terms of whether it's ah, gaps in education or knowledge or AI adoption, these sorts of things. What are the challenges that leadership is really facing for you?

Speaker B: So I've seen that the changes are somewhat different in different um, countries. Um, some of it is motivated more by retirement age. There's mandatory retirement, for example in Singapore or Japan. Um, it might be preferences. I do think that preferences have shifted over the last four years with the pandemic, where people have, um, come to terms with what they really want out of life, perhaps, um, becoming a senior leader in organization is not as attractive to them, um, as it might have been. I think the demand and supply curve is shifting and that's requiring us to think differently about talent pools. And um, it's also reshaping how those talent pools might be coming from different vocations, different industries, um, and it's also helping us think about how do we accelerate talent internally. So I think the underlying theme though is how do we think about things a little bit less unconventionally, uh, so that we can solve this problem. Otherwise it's going to be much more difficult, uh, to solve.

Speaker A: So what does that mean in practical terms? Is that, uh, internal mobility programs, is that high potential programs, you know, what does that actually look like in terms of initiatives and things that you're focusing on right now to ensure that the. Because leadership right now is very different to what leadership looked like even three, four years ago of, uh, what leadership is going to look like over the next year to two years is going to be very different. So how are you finding that? You mentioned unconventional. What are some of the practical, uh, exposures of that? If people are, you know, thinking I'm in this same situation, I'm running these things, is it what I'm doing? Where am I missing? What, Have I got some gaps? Or is that just reaffirming that I'm on the same lines?

Speaker B: So I think you have to unpick, um, each occupation or each, you know, industry. If I take HR for an example, um, I've seen, uh, somewhat of an exodus of chros in the last five years. I think partly it's because, uh, frankly it's been exhausting. We've had the pandemic, we've had an emotional response in many organizations around social justice. Uh, we've had, um, wars to contend with. We've had all kinds of volatility and then this thing called future of work and remote and hybrid, and we're still trying to navigate that. Some chros have just felt that it's no longer just being a chro, it's being chief crisis officer. And you're sort of become this meteorologist in the organization and trying to navigate, uh, when the next tornado is coming and how do you respond to it. So that's not what everybody wants. And so I think some people have checked out. I don't mean that in the sense that they've given up. It's Just that that is not what their calling was. And they want to move on. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. There's a requirement of rejuvenation after continual, you know, chronic pressure and stress and difference. That. That's natural, right?

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. But, but I do think that the role of chr, therefore, has shifted. And, um, I think that's going to continue to accelerate, especially with AI. Um, AI in many ways is, um, taking away the technical gatekeeping. Um, and. And therefore the knowledge and access to technical information is just democratized. So if you've got fundamental leadership capabilities and you know how to manage transformations and complex change, I think some of the technical nature of HR can be a little bit more accessible now. Um, I've seen more and more business people. So when I say business people, people have been in finance or traditional P and L roles that have stepped into hr, and I think that that is adding to our, our industry, our profession, and giving us new perspective. Um, and so that's what I mean by unconventional is that typically, you know, to become a chro, you would either be part of the senior, uh, HR business partner in a company, or you would be head of compensation. And then you go throughout that. I just think that that's changing. That's no longer just the only, uh, path towards chro.

Speaker A: Yeah. So there could be paths coming from finance, paths coming from IT and from tech. And I think the blending and merging of those LEGO brick tasks that make up these things called titles and roles is that there is a merging of these things. Uh, one of the things we're realizing and facing with all of the opportunity and promise and dazzling demos of tech and AI, it's never a tech problem or challenge, it's always a human one. An inability to adapt. We often talk about AQ before AI. You know, I'm coming to aq, AI, that we need to understand the adaptability of people, their mindsets, their unlearning, their psychological safety, all of these things that either inhibit or accelerate an adoption of any new thing. You know, AI today, whatever it may be, as we come into humanoid robotics, as we come into, you know, new waves, uh, of things, ah, accelerated pace. So this blending of, oh, it was always the finance, you know, CFO and CEO. Now it's the chro and CEO. Uh, well, is it now actually really looking at that blend between the IT and people as a key lever of growth and innovation and change? And is that an experience that you're either in this current role or previous roles? You've seen that blend between, not necessarily finance but now the opportunity of real good tech understanding and tech education and a friendship between the CTO and the chro.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean the CIO and I are joined at the hip and we share a very common purpose, um, around the sort of um, intimate relationship between code and culture. And it's important because I think code is going to continue to influence how work gets done. And that's just AI and different forms of AI, but you've got to approach it with a um, good human lens and uh, make sure that it is not something that's being done to people, but rather being done with them. Uh, so this constant evolution requires that close partnership between IT and hr. But I've also seen examples, many more lately, which is encouraging, of HR leaders that are stepping into CEO roles or broader strategy roles. Um, as you mentioned, I moved out of HR and went into the Adidas Canada present Adidas Canada role which um, was a great experience for me and I think that it injected innovation and creativity. But I look at others like Lena Nair who left Unilever to become CEO of Chanel, and the results over the last couple of years are phenomenal. And that was a very unconventional move. You have Tanuj, uh, who's the Chro of Standard Charter, who's now chief strategy Officer for the bank as well. And you would have never heard of these stories in the past as much. And so it's been great to see that evolution of uh, our profession.

Speaker A: What do you think's driving that? Is that personal ambition or market demand or is it something.

Speaker B: Great question. I think it has to be a confluence of both. Mhm. Um, I think that the market is looking for different um, type of leadership skills. It is not just about being an exceptional P and L, uh, or capital allocation manager. It is about fundamentally um, leading teams and creating purpose in an organization and thinking about how change and transformation really happens. Uh, so I do think that CHRs are uniquely positioned to step into that environment. However, you've then got to be a CHRO that really appreciates um, the depth of understanding you need in finance, in investor relations and all the other aspects of being a CEO.

Speaker A: So do you see that as a responsibility of L and D programs of now is to look at more uh, broad experiential rather than the depth of say, you know, a specialty and a specialism by a function, uh, to now have a wider appreciation. And it makes me think one of the UN agencies that we work with, um, had a significant restructure and that's not uncommon that they have these Restructures and it has taken people from roles into roles that are uh, not the normal path. You know, ahead of it becoming head of hr for example and you know a finance person being marketing, uh, chiefs and these sorts of things. And it's very disruptive. Um, the outcome might be good. Often the how matters right where they would was it change happened to them, uh, with them, for them, each of those things. But I'm starting to see more of that and you know that puts a unique pressure and challenge and opportunity on individuals and their, their own paths and belief in themselves. Are you seeing some of that as well beyond the examples you've given? But within your organization is there that unconventional maneuverability and mobility that's being promoted, celebrated, pushed for? Um, how is that really happening?

Speaker B: It's, it's surprisingly not as common as I'd like to for it to be. Uh, there are some companies that have cracked it. It's sort of part DNA. If I think about um, Proctor, uh, and Gamble, Nestle, uh, you know some of the very large consumer goods companies, they have these cross functional rotational programs and I've always been a fan of them. Uh, so some companies do it better than others because it's just been part of their DNA. For us, um, we are a very um, local based uh, organization and that's come together in regions and now global and so we haven't in the past have uh, that much of a demand to be cross regional or cross functional. Having said that, this year as we're leading our talent management processes and succession discussions, it is much more of a topic and we're starting to see those cross functional movements. And as I think about the successor to the chr overall I'm certainly looking beyond uh, HR as well. I'm looking into finance and other parts of the company. Ah, and that's very liberating I think because you can start to think about leadership capabilities and not just functional or technical expertise. Uh, that doesn't discount um, the technical expertise. I think that you need that. But we all have teams and we all bring strengths and weaknesses. And so if you've got a senior team around you that augments you, then I don't think that that technical expertise is as important, especially with AI.

Speaker A: And often what I've witnessed is it's more of a mindset of an inability to let go, to unlearn an identity, a career path. Uh, this is who I am and the value I provide and therefore I become m. Maybe I'm not so confident. Maybe you know how Might we identify those people who could thrive with those big transitions and adaptations? I, I listen to you share about, you know, the story of your kids, where you've lived in lots of different parts of the world, right? Uh, from Canada, Germany. And it's increased their adaptability, their resilience. They have to reintroduce themselves all the time, over and over again. And they've now got this built up network of connections that's so diverse that they're global citizens at a, uh, young age, that's built their adaptability skills. And what we're talking about now is how do we do that in the workplace? Maybe, you know, um, how do we make that more accessible, um, for organizations to be able to think about more diversity of role of area, um, of not thinking, ah, you need that functional expertise to maybe it's a geographical shift, maybe it's a department shift, maybe it's a team shift. And how do we find out who might thrive or who might struggle in those big adaptations is going to be a real challenge, um, because there's often a lot of cultural shift, uh, as well required in that. What's your thoughts on that, Alan?

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Um, you know, I think it comes down to in part risk tolerance of an organization. Um, so as large as Adidas is, um, I'm pretty sure I'm the first person that came out of HR at a senior level that was put into a P and L role of a fairly large P and L in Canada. Um, most CEOs would not do that. It's too risky. But I think that if you create the right last radius around the change and um, ensure that the person that's taking that role is also invested in upskilling. Um, in this instance, he sent me to the program at Harvard and it was tough, um, but there was personal sacrifice and it was also a privilege on my part to be there. But that's sort of the trade off between what the organization's investing in and what the individual's investing in. So I think that that has got to be a mutual relationship. Um, and the psychological safety has to be there as well. Uh, otherwise it's very difficult to adapt. Right. Because you're constantly going to be pushing against it rather than because of the fear, rather than actually embracing it. Yeah.

Speaker A: And, and in our model, I'm not sure how familiar you are, Alain, we have the acronym of ace, Ability, Character and Environment. So we might have certain abilities, certain skills, our, uh, resilience, our mental flexibility, we might have certain characteristics of, you know, why we might adapt. It might be a burning platform or a burning ambition. When you know who responds to which you communicate differently. Right. But then the environment. So I might have certain skills, might have certain characteristics, but what's my environment like from the company to the individual team to levels of work stress that, uh, impact that adaptation? And I think whilst we're talking about the extremes, oh, a big role change or role shift or a geographic change, even within the same role, we're seeing massive change month on month, year on year that used to be perhaps decades. So this, uh, realization of, ah, we just manage efficiencies and productivity to now imagination and experimentation. It's a different level of needing to be humble, needing to be vulnerable, needing to say, I don't have the answers. And for a lot of leaders that's very difficult to do in a role that is my role, a role that I have had an applause for many years or decades to then say, I don't have the answers. Are you seeing that and how are you dealing with it within the programs and initiatives that you're running?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm definitely seeing it. I mean, when you think about what's happened in the world just over the last five years, um, a lot of what we're going through and continue to go through, um, is unprecedented. And so I think you can pretend to be the hero, but I think teams will, uh, see through this and, um, you earn less credibility as a result. Um, I've always erred to the side of being vulnerable. I think that being honest and authentic of what you bring to the table, um, and also what you don't bring to the table is helpful because people gravitate towards helping you. And if they don't know what you're missing, then they're not going to get that surrounding you. So I think you got to be confident. Not everyone is, um, comfortable in doing that. But for me it was so visible and it was on sort of a neon light because here's this HR guy who's now going to be running Adidas Canada. It was pretty clear everyone could go to LinkedIn and see my resume, that I had not done this before. Um, so why pretend? And I, and I, you know, was very open about what I bring and what I don't bring. Um, and I didn't think that that was an inhibitor for me. And I reflect back throughout my career in moments where I was stretched and I didn't want to sort of be exposed and I tried to wing it. Um, the imposter Syndrome was just so much more pronounced. And you've always got that doubt at the back of your mind. Um, but in this time when I was vulnerable, the imposter wasn't really there, uh, because I was just being who I am. I'm authentic. I care. Here's what I want to learn. Here's what I can. I can impart on you. And it was, it was, it was a great dynamic.

Speaker A: And that's probably a great way for anyone in a role that they feel a level of imposter syndrome to, Is to open up to, you know, uh, reveal. And that will also reveal to you who the team are, um, because it requires the two parts, right? Great leadership and also team to be able to see those gaps, not judge, but help. That is, are we together or are we fighting against each other for, you know, I remember you talking a little bit about, you know, diplomacy and when you have lots of different partners, all feeling a sense of ownership at kpmg, how you communicate and how you influence is, uh, something that we're talking about now in a slightly different way, you know, in terms of how do we influence people to show up and support me where I don't have knowledge, um, you know, to fill gaps where nobody in the team has the knowledge, you know, and how do we figure that out as we go? What I'd love to do now is perhaps imagine we're having a conversation, um, at the end of the year, six months time, and you say to me, 2025 was the best year ever. It was a cracking year. This happened, this happened, this happened. Um, paint that vision of what actually happened that, uh, made you feel this was a great year. What were some of the initiatives that got done? What stopped happening? What did you kill? Just paint that vision for six months time. Not five years, 10 years, because who can imagine that right now? But end of the year, what would make you say, that was an awesome year? What happened? And what did you stop doing?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great. It's a great question. Now. I don't know if I have the perfect answer, um, because a pretty deep.

Speaker A: Does anybody?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, look, I. I think it is, um, we're. I'm in. I'm in a. I'm one year into the role, and I think that at this point, if I can have greater collective alignment towards where we're going, how we're transforming the company, um, and really prioritizing ruthlessly, because there's a lot coming at us, you know, whether it's tariffs, whether it is, um, Political, socio, political issues, everything around the world. There's so much coming. We've got it. We've got to create a bit of a filter and, and prioritize what we're focusing on. And um, I think that if we can do that and then invest in those top priorities, um, have clear metrics, uh, to make sure we're, we're winning along the way and celebrating along the way, I think that that's a big achievement. Um, you know, for us. We're a company that have strong ethos and servant leadership. And part of what I'm seeing in organizations, of course, you know, we're a publicly listed company. We've got shareholders, investors, etc. We've got to make sure that we're having a strong earnings per share every quarter and we're delivering the numbers. But at the end of the day, I think as leaders we have to um, where I hope we would honor the legacy of servant leadership and continue to build what I call a talent leasehold improvement. So what I got a year ago should be better a year after and even better the year after. Um, so I kind of look to the end of the year to say what is the improvement that we've made, um, for people's growth in the organization, but also how they're feeling, uh, mentally and have the energy, have adapted, um, have been resilient to all that's coming at them. I think that's going to be the tougher part of what we have to do.

Speaker A: And I like that view. It's something. I use the word custodian. I feel I'm a custodian of my position for this period of the company's journey and as you mentioned, how we expand that and often before it would be about predicting what's on, going about to happen and then, you know, honing the skills for what's required. I think now the reality is, is that it's about preparation, not prediction, because there's going to be such. It's, uh. Coming back to the original comment you meant, uh, you, you shared around. There's exhaustion, you know, in some of the roles, particularly chros, there's been an onslaught of crisis after crisis. And I think that's probably true for many people in their world, in their lens, in their role, is that there's this level of exhaustion of change, of new, of, you know, just a propensity for that. So what you described to that vision is that we are preparing people better for that so that they can deal with it better. What are the opportunities that you're working on that is going to help make that really happen.

Speaker B: So we're doing, uh, a lot around learning. Um, and I know that doesn't sound profound, but for us it is, um, um, rethinking how we learn as an organization, both at the macro level as well as the individual level. And I think that's important because there is going to be no doubt a reshaping of work in the organization. As HR people, we've typically focused on redesigning of role or redesigning of structure, operating model. But what's happening now is a fundamental redesign of work. Right. Whether there are still people that debate it. Um, but I think that AI will not take away all jobs. I can live with that statement, but I can't live with the statement that it will not disrupt any job. Uh, so I do think that it already has. Exactly.

Speaker A: That's m been and done. Yeah.

Speaker B: So whether it's 10% or whether it's 50% or 100% of someone's job, I do think it's going to change. And so as HR leaders, we need to think about what is that doing to work today, how are teams going to be formed in future? What does that do to career progression, entry level positions? You know, it's fundamentally reshaping and there's a role that technology plays in, in that. So that's why I, uh, think we need to double down on that work with the CIO and the broader leadership team to help them, help them navigate this change.

Speaker A: And so when you talk about, you know, investing in learning.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, what are some of the specifics of that? You know, is it learning specific skills? Oh, we need technology, AI skills. Is it learning? You know, um, different ones. Like you've mentioned resilience, you know, or mental flexibility or adaptability, those types of things. What is it that you're investing in? Is it, you know, there's a lot of talk about skills. Skills first, you know, uh, we got our taxonomy or, you know, language of skills. Are we mapping it? Are we redoing those things? What are the initiatives that you're investing in? Learning? Is it learning to learn? Learning agility, Is it unlearning? What aspects are you focused on? Perhaps, say for the next, um, half year, you know, uh, 18 months out, that is going to ensure the vision you just described that everyone says we got there, but we didn't kill ourselves doing it. I got there and my relationships have improved. We hit those numbers and I feel not drained. If we can create that world, what is it that you're doing ah, specifics in some of those things would be super because I'd love that world to exist.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's exciting work. Um, so fundamentally this is about creating and cultivating ah, a very strong growth mindset. Um, it's not something we would say externally to the organization but I would love for us to be famous for learning. And what that really means is that every coworker in our company has access to um, content and whether that is virtual or in person, facilitated or self directed learning and there are different platforms that we use to offer that or it is about seminars, um, that you attend. Microlearning, social learning. We're experimenting in all those different areas. At the end of the day it's not an event, it is throughout the day you're learning. And so funny you mentioned learning to learn because I do think that, well, that there is a topic that we're introducing around learning to learn because I think the way you learn is changing rapidly and AI is going to have a phenomenal um, impact in a positive sense to how that happens. And so it's also much more hyper personalized. AI does that uh, in a way that we would never do in the past. Uh, it's about content curation, um, it's about inspiring people throughout the day or throughout the week. So I really see it as a pervasive um, strategy. It is not. No longer register for a course and you mark that on your calendar. You're going to go. This happens throughout the day.

Speaker A: In my interaction in line with life.

Speaker B: Exactly. You know, in my interaction with you. Right now I'm learning from you around adaptability and, and uh, your thoughts around it. Um, so I, I think we've, we've got to, we've got to think about this more of a fluid.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: State.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's that balance between you know, earn, learn and serve, um, in life. Right. When am I earning, when am I learning, when am I serving and at what point? And there's often a blend right where we're having a conversation. There's bits I'm learning, bits you're learning. We're serving each other because we want to m, ensure that each other is better from the conversation and our listeners improve in their piece and they're able to serve more people and earn uh, more whatever that might be for them. Whether that's impact an NGO or it's, you know, a number for a shareholder business. So I think the, the challenges around learning and the responsibility of learning and you talked about, oh, it Hurts sometimes. You know, it's hard. You know, we'll fund it, we'll take you to Harvard. You do those things. It's hard. And other parts, it happens when we're having fun. When you get together and didn't realize that dinner was the most valuable learning experience of the leadership session than something facilitated by a, you know, professor from somewhere.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's that I'm going to give away a secret now, so future people that I interview will have an in. But, um, you know, when I interview, I look for evidence of curiosity and adaptability. Um, and I do that because I think that it teaches you about what the individual values at their core. And when we recruit people, it's not necessarily something we do at TD Synics at the moment, but when we recruit people going forward, I think we need to bring people into the organization that have this desire for a growth mindset. Because if we bring people in and then introduce them to our learning ethos and that's not something that they're interested in, the tissue rejection will be phenomenal. Um, but I went through a top grading interview many, many years ago and, and it was one of those three hour interviews where I had to talk about from when I was six years old. And it's interesting because I'd never thought about it but you know, I'm a refugee from Africa and my parents gave up almost everything and moved to Canada. Um, and just that experience of living through that type of adversity was difficult. And then just because that wasn't difficult enough, I came out when I was 16. Um, and so it's been this sort of constant, I keep picking the, the tougher path. But in retrospect I think that that has created a, ah, muscle in me around adaptability, uh, which serves me quite well. And I, I, that resonates with people that I talk to when I'm interviewing them around. How do they think about, you know, the, the, the formative years and how things have shaped their character.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think it's. You talk a lot and you use the word growth mindset, you know, Carol Dweck's work. And this, this view that adversity, how we react or respond is the difference and that is the story we tell, the story we tell ourselves and tell others that either break or build us. Ah, and a lot of that is not just a singular sport, it's a team sport. It becomes a culture. What do we celebrate? What do we not celebrate? And you know, a lot of people are talking about fail fast, you know, Learn fast, various things. How are we deploying these? And there's often a massive disconnect between the reward and benefits and what we say we value. So, you know, the reward and benefit is linked to the outcome, not the behavior. Oh, we want you to fail, we want to experiment. But I didn't see extra in my check or a promotion for that. I only saw it when I succeeded, got the result. And so there's a big challenge, right? There's a big challenge, cultural challenge, that it might be, um, that that should or shouldn't be linked to some benefits, but it absolutely should be linked because it's part of our well being, our mental health, our connection, our relationships, our trust building that you talked about. In innovation. Things will go wrong. We'll let people down not through desire, but it'll just happen because something was unexpected. How do we deal with that? And the language we use and the way we work makes the real difference, right? Curiosity, um, and adaptability. It's our world. It's what we focus on in terms of a, uh, question that I ask every guest, uh, as we come to the end of, uh, each conversation. And in fact, you're going to love it because it is a homage to one of our first guests, Dr. Diane Hamilton, who wrote the Curiosity code. It's all about curiosity. And the question is, when was the last time you did something for the first time?

Speaker B: And what was it the last time? I. So probably, probably ziplining, uh, in Switzerland. I am scared of heights. So despite all the travel that I do for work, um, I just pretend I'm not an airplane when I'm on an airplane. But I did ziplining because my kids convinced me and my son at the time was seven and he just went and did it, didn't think twice about it. And so I had no choice but to follow him because now he's on the other side. And so that was, that was very scary. Um, and yes, I did it, but I won't do it again. I feel, I feel like I've done it. I've. I can check that off. I, uh, just didn't enjoy it.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, and it's important, uh, we talked before we hit record about, you know, adaptation and experiences to help us shape what we say yes and no to, you know, uh, I did that. Oh, does that now become my Saturday routine to go and do that? You know, the cold plunge, the zip line, the whatever the experience or is. No, that's not for me. And I did it through an environment, a situation, a, uh, context that gifted your son to see courage, you know, where there was no confidence to see the ability to do it, but also then the confidence to be able to say, no, not again. I in these things. And that's the important part. It makes. When you said, oh, scared of heights very quickly, I, I used to really enjoy adrenaline type things. Bungee jump, skydiving, all sorts of stuff. No issues whatsoever. And I don't know what happened, but I think it was a, um, period in one of these almost like teacups that you lie back in and you spin around in. It was in a park with, um, the grandkids. And I think it altered my inner ear canals and my balance. And now I am so apprehensive of heights. I just did a tour around, uh, the Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon, you know, uh, Zion. All sorts of things are wonderful. And there was a piece where we were walking along the edge in Zion, and it was like, it was giving me the willies. It was really, I'm not enjoying this. You know, I'm enjoying the view, the experience. But this is high. I'm on the edge and I'm having a physical response and physical reaction to this. As I've evolved, uh, and adapted in different ways, partly maybe age, partly maybe something has changed in here. But it is interesting, isn't it? As we observe and reflect, what do we choose to do? Where are we applying our curiosity? When there's unfamiliarity, when there is a sense of fear, do we embrace and then do we select? Do we continue? That is the beauty of life. And as in teams and building a culture, that is what it is. To find out where are the boundaries, where do we move to and collectively, what is tolerated and not so. I'd love you to have the final word and share of anything else that you would have loved to, uh, share on the show. And if people want to get in touch with you because something that you've shared has resonated, perhaps they're in a role in a, you know, another big organization. I know there's lots of peer networks for chros and things, but maybe you've stimulated them. How might they get in touch with you? So what do you want to share that you haven't shared? And how do people get in touch with you? Ellen?

Speaker B: Yeah, all the hypnotherapists who want to cure me of my height, uh, challenges, um, LinkedIn is probably the best, uh, source. It might take me a bit to respond only because it gets crowded in the DMs, but, um, LinkedIn is probably the best source. Uh, the one thing that I would say to people as someone who has crossed over multiple industries and seemingly, uh, has chosen the tough path, um, is that that is the constant renewal and growth source. Uh, you know, if you stay too comfortable, um, I, I worry about stagnation and I worry about, um, maybe it's just a chronic case of fomo, uh, but I kind of like to go down the beaten path and continue to grow. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. So I'd encourage people to do that. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, it's lovely. And finding the environment at which it gifts you the life you choose, uh, and I think there are many paths and discover and knowing our own is part of life's work. Exactly.

Speaker B: Well said.

Speaker A: It's been an absolute joy and pleasure to learn from you today. Uh, understand some of the things that you've experienced that you see and the way that you see the world. So thank you so much, Helen.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me M. I appreciated the conversation.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit AQAI IO to gain your personalized report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. AQAI transforming the way people, teams and organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.