Why Your Customers Are Lying to You (Without Even Knowing It) With Malinda Sanna

Speaker A: Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now let's get started with the show. Hey, everyone, I'm William Harris. I'm the founder and CEO of Element and the host of the Up Arrow podcast, where I feature the best minds in E commerce to help you scale from 10 million to 100 million and beyond as you Up Arrow your business and your personal life. One of the biggest mistakes founders make is believing that if they just ask customers what they want, they'll get the answers they need. But here's the problem. Customers don't usually buy for the reasons they think they do. They'll tell you they discovered you through an ad when the decision was actually made weeks earlier after a conversation with someone they trust. So if your customers can't always explain why they buy, how do you uncover what's actually driving their decisions? Today's guest has spent the last 15 years answering exactly that question. Melinda Sana is the founder and CEO of Looklook, a consumer insights platform that helped brands like Google, BMW, Nestle, Shiseido, lvmh, and many others understand what their customers are really thinking. Not through boring surveys or awkward focus groups, but by getting invited directly into people's lives. She's conducted more than 900 studies with over 30,000 participants, bootstrapped her company to seven figures without outside funding, and along the way, has uncovered some fascinating truths about human behavior that every E commerce founder should know. Melinda, welcome to the Uproar podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you, William. I'm really, really honored to be here.

Speaker A: Thanks for the invite. You came very highly recognized by Sabrina Campbell. So, Sabrina, thank you for putting us in touch. I'm excited to bring this out.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Um, I have one quick announcement and then we'll get right into the good stuff. This episode is brought to you by Element. Element is an award winning advertising agency optimizing e commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired, with the largest one selling for nearly 800 million and one that IPO'd. You can learn more on our website at, uh, element.com, which is spelled E L U M M Y N t dot com. Okay, Melinda, I believe you told me that you grew up learning every TV commercial. Not everyone, but all the jingles, yes. Do you remember one that particularly captivated you

Speaker B: so many? Um, yeah. I was sort of a Gen X latchkey kid and would come home after school. My mom worked and so I would watch a good solid two Hours of tv, I think. And, yeah, that was the era, like, you know, 70s of a lot of jingles. And the ones that I found myself, you know, singing to my sons when they were little, which is kind of weird. Jingles to the test, just realizing that. But, um. And, uh, two of them were for hot dogs commercials. So one of them was Oscar Mayer for sure. And the other one was, uh, let's see. Armor Hot dogs. So hot dogs. Armor M. Hot dogs. What kind of kids eat Armor Hot dogs? So that was one. And my kids still know these to this day.

Speaker A: That's fun.

Speaker B: Oh, I wish I were an Oscar Mayer wiener. That is what I truly like to be. They're fun little songs.

Speaker A: They are fun little songs. I love that you remember them. I love that you sang them for me, because I was gonna ask you to, so I'm glad that you did. Um, the two that came to my mind first, because I also feel the same way. I remember, I feel like every jingle from my childhood. The two that immediately came to my mind was, um, KitKat. For some reason, uh, gimme a break. Give me a break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat.

Speaker B: KitKat.

Speaker A: Right. So I remember that one.

Speaker B: Uh, the other one, we remember these.

Speaker A: That's why we do, like, decades later. The other one, uh, that immediately came to mind, uh, was double, uh, mint gum. Double your pleasure, double your fun. That's the statement of the great Mint and double mint gum.

Speaker B: And so it's like, bring back the jingle, people. Bring back the jingle.

Speaker A: I love the jingle. Yes. But I'm an auditory learner. Do you happen to know there's vis, visual, tactile and auditory. Do you happen to know. Are you an auditory learner?

Speaker B: I don't know. I don't even know. I think I might be equal opportunity because I'm a very visual person also.

Speaker A: Okay, interesting. Um, so you found this fascination with jingles, and then you get an opportunity to go into business. And I believe you were at Coca Cola. This is, like, your dream job.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: When did you tell me a little bit about Coca Cola, but then transition that into. When did you start realizing you're like, hmm, people maybe don't understand why they buy what they buy?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, um, yeah, I went and got my mba, and then, uh, despite. Despite being told that no one at, uh, Coca Cola gets a job if they don't graduate from an ib Which I did not. I went to Emory University for my mba. Uh, I was lucky enough to be hired. And that was when they sponsored the Olympics in 96 I was right out of school and um, it was a dream job. I mean um, the Coca Cola company, it's still an amazing business but um, back in the 90s when everyone drank soda, it was super exciting. And they had probably 50 advertising agencies on their roster. It was a really creative time for brands like that. Um, television advertising was still kind of a thing and creative other than just super bowl ads. So uh, that was my foray into consumer marketing and um, worked with some incredible people and um, attended a lot of focus groups. That was kind of the reigning methodology at the time and was um, sort of subject to the, you know, the reality of listening to what consumers said they wanted. Right. So we would literally at that time, and this is very outdated thinking, you know, we would gather a bunch of kids in a room and show them an ad campaign and say, you know, do you like it? Yes or no? It was very kind of black and white. And what I began to realize is that that's a really ham handed, awkward way of understanding what people really want. Um, and realizing that people can't really answer that because it's not a logical, um, it's not a logical discussion. People are moved by storytelling and that's a very emotional thing and they are not able to talk about it in a rational way in a room, with strangers, in a sterile, you know, facility in a strip mall.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: That, that sort of began um, my search and quest to have more genuine interaction with people to sort of understand what makes them tick, what moves them, what cuts through all the noise and clutter. Um, and yeah, developed multiple methodologies and I find myself um, today working with the platform that we built to have more intimate ah, conversations with people in a virtual setting.

Speaker A: Mhm. I like people getting to know you a little bit before we dig into too much of the meat. And so there's another part that I really appreciate about your journey that brought you to where you are that was interesting. Um, you studied music. I think you, if I remember correctly you were actually a professional musician overseas or something along those lines as well. Music has a lot of pattern recognition. Um, and then obviously within, let's just say human psychology there's pattern recognition as far as like why people are buying and being able to look at all of these different things that are coming in. Do you think that, do you think, have you previously interpreted that as being a part of like what has helped you to be good at this? Pattern recognition is like your background in music.

Speaker B: I think my background as a performer has helped me A lot. Um, just in terms of. How can I put this? I think I value things that are exciting and stimulating and creative and fun and the world of research, um, it can often be a little rigid and dry and boring. So I think as a performer, I've brought. I've tried to bring that energy to what we do because it should be very interesting and fun and creative. Um, specifically as a musician, I will say that the concept of resonance, um, it's a word that is used a lot in marketing these days, sort of loosely to say, is this a thought you relate to? Is this a thought that vibes with you? And I think that we are all kind of at the risk of sounding a little, um, Woohoo. Right. Um. Uh, I think we're all electrical beings, you know, and music and sound. Like you said, it's pattern recognition, but it's also a communications vehicle that can connect or fall flat, you know. But, um, the idea of ideas that resonate, storytelling, um, that resonates, messaging that connects is very much kind of a musical metaphor that applies here, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: It does. And you talked about not wanting to go woohoo. Let's just say I might table that for the end of this conversation if we get a chance, because there's some good stuff there. We'll talk about the singing of rocks and stars and whales. Uh, maybe at the end of this. Um, awesome. Talking about the idea of things being entertaining, uh, tangentially, who is one of your favorite entertainers and why? Because I'm going to share mine. Victor Borga. When you talk about music and entertainment, do you remember Victor Borga?

Speaker B: Vaguely. Tell me more.

Speaker A: Okay. He was just, I don't know, very funny. And like, the one thing that I remember. Well, there's several things that I remember. And like, people have to. Like, if you had. If you don't know who Victor Borga is, you have to go look it up. Um, but there are several funny things that he would do. Uh, and one of them was phonetic punctuation that he would do. And he did this one with Dean Martin. You know, on the show with Dean Martin, it's like. So he'd be like singing, singing the song or something. And then it's like he would be like, he had sounds for the punctuation. He's like, oh, we don't pronounce the punctuation. So it's like, you know, um, oh, sole mio. And he'd be like. He was just like. If there's like, oh, there was a period there or whatever. And he's like, if there's a question where he's like, it's like very funny, very entertaining. Just taking things that were boring and making them enjoyable. But who is your entertainment that you're like I just, this person is so creative and I love seeing their entertainment.

Speaker B: Well, I love comedy and uh, I have a lot of famous. I mean I have a lot of favorite comedians. It would be tough to choose just one. But I would say Larry David, who was like one of the writers behind Seinfeld and then did his own long running show Curb youb Enthusiasm. I just think his style of humor is hilarious. And the fact that you know, he can, he and both and Jerry Seinfeld both really can sort of see the humor and everyday banality and just the silliness of human beings. I love that, I love that sort of observational humor.

Speaker A: M that's so fun. I um, want to start now getting into the traditional research being broken. We hinted at this a little bit in Coca Cola and like how things had been done. Um, but I want to start digging into this a little bit more as far as like what you were starting to see that made you say, hmm, this can be done differently. So let's start with why do you think even now focus groups are fundamentally flawed? And that's why we have look. Look for instance. Mhm.

Speaker B: Well, a number of reasons. I mean, one is that I mean society is just different and people are too busy to be scheduled where they're going to have to drive somewhere, deal with traffic, um, and go out of their way to have an experience in a room with a cheesy one way mirror, um, and be studied like lab rats. It's just super outdated and cheesy. And I think most people that brands really care about are not going to be willing to do that unless they're getting a big pile of money. And even then they may not be willing to do it. Um, so there's just the logistic aspect. It's much easier to reach people virtually like on their phone or um, via a laptop or desktop. Uh, so the asynchronous way that we have of chatting with people that feels more like texting is, it's just more realistic in today's world. But also there's something about a group dynamic. And in a focus group you're sitting typically around a circular table, a rectangular table with a bunch of people you've never met before. You're just there because you all happen to buy, you know, Febreze fabric cleaner or Whatever it is, um, drive BMWs. So you don't know each other. And human beings tend to kind of posture and think about how they're being seen and how they're being heard. And you don't necessarily get, um, you don't get a real genuine response. So our approach is to facilitate one on one, um, dialogue with people. And so literally it's um, me asking questions and probing further on, uh, topics individually with a person or people on my team, um, having real one on one dialogue with people. It's asynchronous, so they'll answer questions, um, according to what the topics are for that particular study. But then we log on, look at their responses, ask them follow up questions, and then we give them 24 hours to answer them. So we give people kind of the space and time to be more thoughtful and mindful with what they have to say to us. And that is just so much more in depth. It allows us to be more granular in our exploration of these topics. And it fits with the way people kind of live and work.

Speaker A: Now the idea of maybe people being a little bit more guarded if they're in a group and wanting to, I don't know, match the group's consensus a little bit like that makes sense. And I hadn't thought about that before. Um, do you think that people then let's just say like text based. What are the drawbacks? There is. Are people less likely to be forthcoming about something or are they almost like too forthcoming or like, what are the drawbacks to like the text based approach?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the only criticism I've heard that I would say might have some validity, but I really don't believe it does, is that, oh, well, you're not reading people's body language then. Well, you know, to me that is an easy trade off because I would much rather have them answer me honestly than use body language as a proxy for what they're actually saying. Um, there's something about the anonymity of chatting with people in a text format that just feels safe to people and they just are much more revealing about themselves. It also like our platform because it's kind of like texting. You could upload pictures and video, like it's, it's really a periscope into their lives. So often we're not just conversing, we're saying, show me pictures of your pantry, show me pictures of, you know, the kind of soaps you have in your powder room, or, you know, show me your shoe collection or whatever it is we want to sort of understand, get in the passenger seat of your car and talk about, you know, how it feels to sit there, sit in the driver's seat and talk to us. Or we might have them upload a video of themselves talking to us or showing us how they apply a beauty product. Or, um, they might screen record what they're doing on their phone and how they're shopping for something and how they might toggle back and forth between shopping websites and social media and texting with their friends. We're actually seeing the world through their eyes and experiencing the world the way they are experiencing the world. So it's very much a periscope. And also, you know, a client told me this once. It's like a virtual confessional. Like, people just open up to us. And I think that's a little bit the way I've trained my team to relate to people. But it's also, I think, the, um, the. The medium, in other words, having this kind of asynchronous chat where you give people the space and time to respond as they want to.

Speaker A: It's so intimate. It's. It's. It's so multisensorial. I. I think about this, and I'm like, by the time you get to the focus group, you're answering now with, you know, your limbic system, and you're giving the answer that you're pretty sure is why you're doing it. Whereas when you actually sit down, like you said, in the driver's seat, in that moment, you're probably gonna be more likely to answer a little bit more with your amygdala. M. And I'm, you know, making that up, but it's like, you're likely gonna answer a little bit more of, like, the actual reason than what you've rational to be. Um, and just that idea of being able to get people into those, you can't get that out of focus. You can't get that very, very easily anywhere else where it's like, show me the soaps. And I don't know if you're this way too, but I'm adhd probably, um, tell if you can't tell.

Speaker B: I think we all are in today's world. Yes, I know. I am, too.

Speaker A: So I don't actually remember some of these things unless it's right in front of me. And so you're like, hey, show me the soaps. And you go to show. Oh, that's right. I do have this other thing. I forgot all about it. But now that you just asked me to do this. And I'm sitting here right in my home and I take a picture, I'm like, oh, that's right, I do that. And that reminds me, this is why I got that and this is why that didn't work or whatever.

Speaker B: M mhm. No, that's absolutely right. And the other interesting dynamic about the work that we do is that, um, I think traditional advertising is kind of dying a slow death right now. You know, people can kind of navigate their way around ads. Whether you're paying for, you know, the premium version of YouTube or the ad free version of Netflix. It's like, so how do brands even get their message across? They can do really sophisticated targeting now with AI, but where are you going to put that message? Um, and what we notice is that even though brands don't come to us, companies don't come to us with a budget and say, tell our story for us, they come to us for insights. But it pays a really nice dividend because by having people focus on a specific product or brand as part of our study, we notice that they go out and buy it afterwards. A lot of them do. And that could be whether it's for, you know, Dot's snack mix or, you know, Nike tennis shoes or Chanel Beauty, you know, they, they are focusing on a certain product or category experience in a way that they wouldn't otherwise. And it often can kind of awaken dormant interest or even dormant love for a brand that people haven't thought about for a while. So it's, it's a little bit of an immersive experience. And we're, we're playing with that as well. You know, with certain of our clients that are looking to kind of, um, engage with people in a way that doesn't feel like advertising.

Speaker A: You know, I think that's the key, um, when you talk about like advertising dying. When we do ads for brands and we run digital ads, right? So Meta, TikTok, Google, YouTube, whatever, and the traditional ways of how you target those was, you know, you're like, I want, you know, males 25 to 35 who like golf, these Democrats and these interests and whatever. And now the best way to target is by creating content that somebody who is that ideal audience is going to find engaging. Facebook will serve it to them because they know that they're, that's the things that they're interested in. And so the best way is to create that content. But in order to create the content that is really going to resonate with that person, you need these deeper insights. Because now you, you could if all you were doing was just getting away with saying, I want to target these people with this ad. The ad didn't have to be that good because you made sure you targeted those people. But if now you're not targeting those people on purpose, now the ad has to be better. You have to have better insights into it. And so, um, I had Will Leach on here. Um, so competitor, he was at Pepsi, uh, I don't know if you know, Will Leach or whatever, but. And one of the things uh, that he brought up that I really appreciated when he was doing focus groups back then as well, um, was uh, I think it was for another client of his afterwards. And it was like um, storage containers for closets. And similarly like actually went to this person's home. Right. And so it was like not a folks who was like physically in their home, uh, and they show him their closet and they break down crying because they're like, I'm sorry it's such a mess. And it's like, oh, we're not selling organization, we're selling like, um, you know, this feel good about like yourself. Like, like this removing shame or whatever it is that you have for this. It's like, it's a very different thing. And so to your point, I think outside of the focus group you might get a little bit into the emotion side of things, but when you get into, look, look, the likelihood of you getting a little bit more into that true raw, this is me, this is in my house. Um, you get those insights that you need to actually create the content that you need.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we are hanging on their every word. We are definitely making them feel heard. And I think that's a pretty rare experience for people these days because we are all adhd. So certainly if the competition is sitting around a focus group table, you're sitting there thinking, what am I going to say that's going to make me look smarter? How do I talk over that person to get my voice? Or uh, the whole group says the same thing. Because of group think dynamics. It's the one on one aspect that probably your friend from Pepsi foundation, by having the intimacy of entering someone's home and having that rapport, that can also unlock it. The point is it's one on one. The point is you're giving, you're practicing deep listening and really being present for what that person is saying and experiencing in that moment.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. So let's talk about a couple of these stories that you've shared with me. Uh, one was uh, Google. Um, you, um, were doing some stuff with Google. Um, and I think the thing that I found that was interesting with this is like Google has so much data, so much data, more than almost anybody that exists on the planet. But they still came to you. They're like, we don't understand why this is happening. Can you help us figure it out? So like what was going on and what did you figure out for them?

Speaker B: Yeah, we did a lot of work for Google for a while. Um, I think the, the one you're talking about is Android phone. Yes, they came, they came to us because they said we need to solve this issue. And this was a while ago. So um, it was actually when Obama, the latter days of Obama's second term. And they said we have a lot of people using the Android operating system on their phones, but on devices that have less than a gigabyte of ram. And so we, the woman who was doing recruiting for me at the time, Susan, we didn't know what, what, you know, what one gigabyte of RAM was. We went to some cell phone stores and we happened to go to one, um, I live near Huntington, New York. We went to Huntington Station, a cell phone store where they said, oh, one gigabyte of RAM is nothing. You know, those are really low cost phones and they're being given away right now. Go down the street to Walgreens because there's this, you know, on Tuesdays they give out um, free phones to people that need them. So we, it was a rainy day, we like drove over half a mile to the Walgreens and sure enough there was a woman collecting Medicaid applications. And um, she told us about Obama phones. And apparently that's what caused the huge uptick in 1 gigabyte RAM phones was the fact that these Obama phones were given out to millions of people suddenly. And um, they were using them early days of smartphone, you know, smartphones, they were using them um, as smartphones as, even if it was like in addition to the iPhone, they already had or whatever. And that's what was accounting for all that increased use of Android operating system. And that's how we found it out.

Speaker A: And this is just insane because I, uh, mean again, Google has so much data, the fact that they didn't know and that they needed to come to. I think this is the thing that I want to like say to the e. Commerc. Listen founders who are listening, you actually don't know your customers. Like I don't care how much, how many post purchase surveys, you're doing or whatever else you're doing right now, as much data as you think you have about your customers, you know nothing, you know a fraction, you know 1% about them. And the likelihood of there being significantly more that you can learn about your customers that will unlock things that you're going to be able to use to create ads or to develop new products or whatever is significant.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, the truth of that situation is that we learn that through the recruitment process. And recruitment is what we mean by identifying the right people to take part in a study. And like you said, often the client will sort of dictate that they'll say 25 to 30 year old males who, you know, buy this and live in this place. So we hadn't even started this study when we came across that finding. You know what I mean? We were just still in the process of like, where are we going to find, find these people that have 1 gigabyte of RAM on their phones? Because no one we know, only, um, has a 1 gigabyte RAM phone. So it was it. And because we do find our own participants, meaning we do our own recruitment. I mean that really no one else does that really, because it's really hard. We're the only ones crazy enough to do it. But we are perfectionists in that the type of research that we do, which is small sample research, the quality of the people needs to be amazing. And that's why we started doing it ourselves 15 years ago, was because, um, when you outsource that part of market research, um, you're really risking the quality of the data, you're risking the integrity of the learning. And so, um, we often learn a lot about the context from the moment we start recruiting. And we can, we know so much more before the study even starts, just from the process of like, well, where are we going to find these people? We screen them, we collect data, we get to know them, and we begin to understand the context of the marketing situation. A problem to be solved just by screening the people that could be in the study.

Speaker A: That's so interesting. You referred to this almost as you said, what was it? Uh, uh, like a virtual confessional. Um, there's a story about Hershey that you tell again. And when I think about Hershey and some of the work that you did for them, people are confessing. It almost seems like a lot of times the easiest time to get me to talk about what's going on is give me some chocolate too. All right, so I'm eating some food and I'm like, okay, I'm ready to talk, but tell me about Hershey and what those stuff that you guys are doing there.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, well, Hershey, we've done a lot of different things for Hershey. Um, and the brief can be as broad as we want to understand what luxury means in the world of chocolate. So that can be a very broad thing to explore, or they might want to understand what the eating occasion might be for a certain type of snack. So once we were asked to find people who play video games and snack at the same time, um, we wanted to understand what kind of snacks are they reaching for, where they're not going to get their hands messy while they're playing video games. So that's, that's one where video played, uh, a big role because we wanted to really see them in the moment. So we said, you know, set your phone up and just play games and eat what you normally would eat, you know, and they would talk to us about what they, you know, whether it was something clean that they could eat easily or, you know, they really kind of want something intense and sweet and salty. And it might be sticky, but it's worth it. But I just have to, like, have wipes to, like, wipe down my device or whatever. You know, it was really, really interesting to kind of understand that very specific situation. Um, but, yeah, chocolate being near and dear to my heart, we love those studies because, um, it gives us an excuse to indulge and find out new products as well.

Speaker A: So snack wise, what snack are you grabbing? Like, if you're going to grab a snack right now, maybe not playing video games, but you're going to go grab a snack. If you were going to grab a snack right now on the podcast, what are you grabbing?

Speaker B: Oh, well, my current obsession is that new Khloe Kardashian protein popcorn. Have you heard of that? Huh?

Speaker A: Uh, what's it called?

Speaker B: It's called clout. K. Of course.

Speaker A: I guarantee you my girls probably have.

Speaker B: Yeah. K H L O U D. I think. And it comes in white cheddar, and it comes in olive oil, um, or sweet and salty. And it's great. And it's right in the protein trend. So you feel like you're doing something good for yourself. Um, yeah, that's my current obsession. I'll get tired of it immediately, but

Speaker A: for now, I love it. Um, I, I would say that, like, I'm. I'm a classic Reese. Like, people who know me know that's like, Reese's are probably my, my go to. But I've. I've had a. A kick lately, uh, for Jolly Ranchers. And I don't know why, but there's just something about them. This is such an old. This is such an old man thing. But it's like, they're sweet, but, like, they're not too sweet. Like, you're not gonna get sick. I'm trying to, like. I'm trying to, like, you know, change my body a little bit here in my 40s, whatever, right. So it's like Reese's may be done away with, but it's like you just get this little hint of something, uh, but it's not gonna ruin your diet, it's not gonna ruin your life kind of thing.

Speaker B: Well, as someone who grew up on a lot of processed food, Jolly Ranchers are great because there are flavors like sour apple that have nothing to do with the taste of an apple, but it's still one of my favorite flavors. Or like, blue raspberry.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Doesn't taste, but love that flavor.

Speaker A: Uh-huh. That's fun.

Speaker B: I love Jolly Ranches.

Speaker A: What is the funniest thing that you've ever had someone send you during a study where you're like, I can't believe this just came across?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, chocolate opens up a lot of virtual confessional, uh, situations, especially when we talk. I don't know what it is about women in chocolate, but chocolate just has a place in our hearts, I think, and our role in our. In our biology. So to see where women stash their chocolate in their. In their home is so interesting. I mean, and having them paint the picture of how they're eating it. Uh, what, you know, are they. Are they drinking wine while they're having their chocolate? What. What other guilty pleasures are surrounding them? Again, there's. It's this voyeuristic virtual confessional moment, um, seeing where they hide their chocolate from their husband or hide it from their children.

Speaker A: I hadn't thought about hiding it. What are some of the places that you're, like, you would not believe, but these are some of the places people

Speaker B: hide that, you know, I mean, high shelves in the pantry, but also, like, all around the bed. Nightstand, under the bed, um, you know, in the. In the shoe closet. You know, like, anywhere where, um, it feels just a little naughty.

Speaker A: And that's funny.

Speaker B: So I. I guarantee you, in your home, William, there are some stashes.

Speaker A: Well, they're mine, but that's the problem. So my wife and my girls. I got three girls, and they're. They're definitely like, dad, we don't want to have this candy all over the house. I'm like, well, I still want candy, right? So my wife is like, you have to find somewhere else to put this, because it's like, it can't be out here for everybody else to eat. So I'm like, all right, I'll put it. So I had it in my bedroom under the bed the one time for a little bit. Right. And it's like, I'm not hiding it, but it's like, all right, I'll just keep it here. So that way. And, uh, the dogs got it, though. Dogs are not supposed to eat chocolate. So I was like, well, that's not a good spot for it.

Speaker B: Right, right, right. Oh, that's funny.

Speaker A: Now. It's just like you said, high pantry, high pantry door. Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, your girls sound like they've learned some healthy eating habits. Good for them.

Speaker A: They are very good, I would say. I believe my oldest, she's 16. I don't know if she's actually had sugar in probably years. Like, she is very good. Like, she makes her protein shakes, and it's like she is. She's driven the middle one right now, 13. Uh. Uh, you know, she plays very competitive volleyball, and so it's like, she's like. She's got her goals and everything. Right. And so it's like the youngest one she'll see. She'll steal Canada with me. But, uh, you know, the other two, they're pretty. Pretty dedicated.

Speaker B: That's amazing. Well, it's the youngest of three daughters, I think. The youngest, uh, we know how to enjoy life the most, I think.

Speaker A: You're the youngest of three girls, aren't you?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you feel like that dynamic birth order.

Speaker A: Yeah. Do you feel like that dynamic plays out, like. Okay, if I was gonna stereotype it, there's, like, the oldest rule follower. There's the middle who's like, I'll follow the rules, but I'll sneakily get away with them. And then there's youngest who's like, I'll break the rule right in front of you. I'm not too worried about it.

Speaker B: Exactly. Because I know my parents are too exhausted to deal with me. Yeah, exactly. That's so true. I think the middle child, they tend to be kind of the mediators and make everyone happy and. And the oldest, you know, they. Yeah, they. They want to. They want to follow the rules and tell everyone else what to do.

Speaker A: That's funny.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, there was some stuff that you talked about with, Ah, just like luxury psychology. There are some of the brands you work with, beauty brands. Um, and the thing, I think luxury buyers can afford just about anything. Right. Like there's, there's, it's not something. So it's like, so how do you decide which lipstick they're going to buy? Like, what's the insight that you were getting there with them?

Speaker B: I mean, it can really vary. Sometimes we'll be asked to kind of understand a category like, what is happening in skincare? Like, early on during the pandemic, women were just suddenly spending a lot of money on skincare in a way they hadn't before. And they had a lot of time on their hands to watch YouTube tutorials and teach themselves about ingredients. And Korean skincare kind of came about during that time. Yeah, so sometimes it can be just like, what is happening in this category? You know, um, other times we might be very, very centered on a certain brand, you know, so we've done some work for Ariana Grande's, um, makeup line, R.E.M. um, and we will ask women to focus specifically on that brand. We might even send them to Ulta or wherever it's sold to kind of, of see how they're experiencing the merchandising and what is standing out and what do you think of the makeup versus her very popular fragrance line, that kind of thing? Um, so it can be very broad or very specific. But again, we're looking to always get a little beneath the surface and beyond the obvious because, um, I mean, these days, companies and brands, they have, like you said, so much data, Google has so much data. Um, so we don't want to ever, you know, when we present our findings, have the client say, oh, well, that validates what we knew. Like, that's death to me. Like, I don't like to hear that because I want to have them, um, tell us we didn't realize that or that is bringing new learning to us because that's where the value lies, you know? Yeah, um, we're all swimming in data. So to me, it's not about reporting on findings as much as it is interpreting what we're hearing or finding and bringing some level of cultural, cultural observation to that. So an insight to me is a finding a data point set in the context of a societal trend. That is an insight.

Speaker A: Mhm, mhm. Um, what's one of the things you think most founders of businesses just get wrong about affluent customers?

Speaker B: About their customers.

Speaker A: Um, specifically affluent customers. It's like, hey, they don't realize this. Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, I think that there is conventional wisdom around luxury buyers um, that is just outdated. I think luxury has been democratized radically over the past 10 or 20 years. And so it used to be, especially with high fashion luxury brands, you know, the perception that, oh, this is, this is for ladies who lunch. It's like that just doesn't exist anymore. I mean, sure, these $5,000 jacket brands, I mean, they are for women who work, you know, and even, even luxury jewelry, um, women are buying for themselves now. You know, they're not necessarily. I mean, there will always be a market for, you know, um, the milestone occasion or romantic anniversary or Valentine's Day or wedding anniversaries that, you know, the guy is very much part of that equation. But there's a lot of jewelry buying that happens now as, um, women just wanting to buy it for themselves or as an investment with their own money. So, um, there tends to be a lot of lazy, outdated thinking about who the luxury buyer is, particularly when it comes to. When it comes to women.

Speaker A: That makes sense. You ran into a very prominent female one time. You ran into Martha Stewart. You told me.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: What happened with her?

Speaker B: I was very surprised. So this was early days again when my friend and colleague Susan, uh, we were partners in crime looking for these luxury buyers because we were building up our luxury database at the time. Fortunately, we live in New York, so it's easy for us to go to Bergdorf Goodman, which is where we ran into Martha. And, um, we would literally walk up to women in the luxury shoe department and say, hey, would you want to be part of a study for Jimmy Choo or something? And, um, we ran into Martha in the Jonathan Simk, ah, clothing department. And I was just so bowled over. First of all, she was like, she is so beautiful in person. Like, what is she in her 80s now? And she looks amazing. I think she was, like, on the COVID of Sports Illustrated in a bathing suit last year. Anyway, crazy. Yeah. This was, um, a few years ago, but she's tall, she's gorgeous, she was so friendly. And because we were fearlessly talking to strangers, we did talk to her, but I found myself a little flummoxed. I was a little starstruck meeting her, but she was so nice. And fortunately, my colleague Susan was not flummoxed and, you know, got her phone number and she texted us. Yeah, or her email.

Speaker A: How do you ask for Martha's first number?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, no, no. It was not her number. Sorry, sorry, that's an exaggeration. She gave us her email and she connected us to people around her that, um, helped us out with whatever we were recruiting for. I think it was ah, Chanel fashion or something. But um, yeah, Martha was amazing.

Speaker A: Martha is amazing. Um, I would say that, you know, as far as like getting starstruck, whatever, I don't feel too easily starstruck either. Um, but my wife, if, and I don't think she does either, but if she met Martha Stewart kind of like you, I think that like, that's probably her, the epitome of like, if I could meet Martha one day, Martha's the person she would want to meet.

Speaker B: She's a larger than life presence. But she was so kind, you know, in that, in that situation which was, you know, whatever you hear about Martha Stewart, she was very nice to us and we were strangers.

Speaker A: So I want to bring this into like the E commerce version of this then. And so a lot of this is not necessarily geared towards E commerce, but it is. If you were, let's say running a $50 million e commerce brand, um, or a $50 million e commerce brand comes to you and says we need to learn more about our customers, what do you think are probably the like top two, three things that they probably need to dig into to understand more?

Speaker B: I think that a lot of clients are really itching to better understand the journey that leads them to make a purchase. Um, because it can be so varied these days. And I think everyone's a little confused about what role social media plays. No matter what category you're in, it's playing a role. Um, so that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on is we are able to kind of connect with people and, and, and people can walk us through their path to purchase or even just path to consideration, um, for anything. And, and it often starts online, um, with discovery via social media or discovery in some other forum. But um, everyone's, everyone is a researcher today, you know, so everyone, um, there can be impulse purchases where you, you know, maybe you see something on social media and you click through to buy. I mean that happens, but even that may be a little journey, but it's a journey, um, much more often and particularly in the luxury world, people will do a little bit of research and digging around before they pull the trigger because there's a lot of money at stake. Um, it can be thousands of dollars. So it's very important to know what, where your customers are doing that research and what is motivating to them. Um, and that really it can be so many different things. These days. They could be reading Google reviews, they could be reading reviews on Your own website or a competitor's website. They could be checking in with their friends. Should I buy this? Uploading a picture to a text exchange. They could be um, using AI to help them make decisions. It can really, really vary. And so I think having a clear understanding of what that journey can look like for different types of customers because it is not going to be a uniform one size fits all thing in today's world.

Speaker A: I love the way you position that. And uh, we actually have a client of ours that is um, let's just say about around $50 million. Um, and let's say that their AOV is about $400. Right. So it's a decent size AOV. It's not, it's a considered purchase a little bit, but it's not like highly considered, um, shoes. And they, they're running ads, um, but they don't spend any of that money. Like all the ads are optimized towards conversion, conversion purchase optimization. And so within, you know, the advertising space it means you're optimizing for that actual purchase. Uh, when you do that meta, uh, and the algorithms they have like a seven day window more or less that they're saying this purchase needs to happen within the next seven days. What that does then is you're basically telling meta, I need people who are ready to buy now because Google's only going to really kind of get the credit for that if they're making those purchases within seven days. Um, you're missing reaching the people who are like I want to buy this in 60 days, 45 days, whatever that might be. Right. Like I'm not ready to buy these shoes now, but I'm definitely interested in these shoes and I want to engage with the brand and I want to be a part of this and excited about this. And so they asked, they're like, do you think we should run some non conversion optimized? It was like well 100% yes. Like I absolutely like that is a recommendation that I have for most of the brands that we work with, uh, that you should be doing that. Um, but it becomes hard. But to your point, uh, if you don't understand the journey, if you're not thinking about the journey, that it's like these people didn't just wake up and say oh, I saw an ad for these shoes, I'm gonna buy them today. There was something that likely happened and they had already talked about or they more likely knew somebody that wore these shoes and they're like wow, these are so comfortable. Maybe you've even tried Them on at a store or whatever this might be. There was something that happened that made them say that. And so to your point, understanding the journey more will give you ideas of like, okay, so when you're 60 days out, what kind of content do you want to see 60 days from wanting to purchase these shoes? Because it's different than the content you want to see when you're ready to buy it now?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, no offense, meta, but people are not robots. I mean, it's a little unreal, unrealistic and dehumanizing even to say, okay, this ad needs to work within seven days, or we want to reach the person who's going to purchase within seven days. Because, you know, people are messy. Um, attention is messy, and so you have to meet them where they are. Some people it may be an impulse purchase. Some people you may be able to convert them quickly, but it really depends on the product, the category, the person, where they're at. And that's why brand building advertising is so important, because it plays a role in, um, capturing the person's attention and getting on their radar, even if they may not be able to activate a purchase for another six months. Like you said. I mean, those, those two components need to be able to play together. Brand building and, you know, tactical, um, purchase triggering. Those are two different messages. It's two different stories to tell. Um, yeah, we're not, we're not programmed to buy immediately, all the time, especially

Speaker A: at that volume, at that level, uh, that aov, uh, a brand. And I had Preston Rutherford on there called Chubby's, uh, like shorts and stuff. And he talks about this, and I really like the 95.5rule, which is like 5% of your TAM is probably ready to buy right now, but the other 95% isn't. How are you engaging those people? And if you have no plan for how you're actually engaging those people, then yes, you're leaving a significant amount of opportunity for your competitors to target them and engage them.

Speaker B: Yeah, we do hear a lot of, um, in the fashion and beauty category about people perusing something, not purchasing, and then it's showing up in digital ads, um, that can be quite effective. You know, so that sort of listening component of being exposed to something and then seeing it appear in your life, even if, like, ooh, someone's been listening to me. I mean, they may think it's a little creepy, but it can be effective. I mean, we do hear that, that, um, showing up again or showing up unexpectedly in other formats is effective. I mean, I Think you just have to make sure your brand is showing up multiple times.

Speaker A: Um, for any, we, we say that it's creepy, right? But like it's, it's all contextual. And so this is the way that I like to think about this. If, if your partner, your, if your husband shows up with what you need without you having to ask for it, you're like, thank you. All I want is for you to be able to just know what I need without me having to say it. It's a very good thing. If your stalker shows up with what you want, it's a different thing, right? You're just like, wait a minute, why do you know what I want without me having ads? Like, they're very different. Um, and so it's very contextual. And so to your point, um, it comes down to how much we trust the platform or whatever they're doing. It's like, hey, if Meta shows you an ad for something you want, for the most part we feel okay with that. We've kind of gotten a little bit more okay with it. Uh, but if it's, uh, you know, Chinese company TikTok shows you, you're maybe a little bit less trusting. You're like, wait a minute, why do you know what I want now? I don't want you to know what I want yet. And so we do contextualize our trust, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you know, there are improvements that can still be made. I mean, sometimes, you know, after we hear this a lot, like someone will make a purchase and then those items show up in digital ads, it's like, well, wait a minute, I've already purchased that, you know, like, so it can, it can still be refined. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, okay, so understanding the journey is a good one. What's another one that you think a lot of E commerce brands, they're just not asking this question and they need to ask this question.

Speaker B: I think that in the world of E commerce where you don't have the face to face interaction necessarily with your customers, the idea of making your customers feel heard and recognized and um, maybe even meeting other customers like them, you know, this idea of, I guess community is a really big one today because, um, most people are lacking a sense of community in their lives. And so, um, if you're only employing, you know, mass email campaigns that are pushing out the same message to everyone, or, um, only asking for input via a really dry survey that's pushed out in the name of, you know, CRM, I think, um, you're missing an Opportunity to really connect with the human beings that are paying money for your product. So um, there are various ways of doing that today. Um, but I think that community building, sort of in the spirit of what, what Glossier did years ago, you know, like um, when they initially came onto the scene, I don't know about now as much but you know, it was very fresh what they did in starting with a magazine and an online presence and giving their customers a way to give them feedback and tell them what new products they wanted and what they liked about certain products. I mean creating any kind of forum where you can get um, real insights and observations and conversation back from your customers. Not just survey results or sales data, but um, but conversation with your customers I think is very valuable.

Speaker A: Conversation is always valuable. Right? That's how you learn, that's how you grow. That's how you discover what you didn't know. I think the question that I would like to see E commerce founders do more of, we're very good at post purchase surveys, which is, you know, how did you hear about us? Right? That's like, seems like the biggest one. So we can, it gives us a better understanding of attribution because we missed that. Right? It's like um, maybe they clicked on a Google Ad, but, but they say I heard about you on TikTok, I heard about you on this. Where it's like, well that wasn't getting credit for the purchase. So it allows us to understand where to invest money. But I would want them to say like, why did you buy this? Right? Like why? What else did you evaluate before you came to decide to make this decision? It's like those are the questions that I feel like we don't get often enough in E commerce that I would love to see more E commerce founders say like I want to work with, look, look. And I want to find out why are people buying this? Like what is the reason? And so they'll leave comments sometimes. And so you can kind of glean from that maybe we try to look at like what are people saying on Reddit? Like there's, there's ways that we're getting some ideas of this, but it's like to just come right in and ask them, why, what else did you evaluate? Why did you decide on this one out of all the other things?

Speaker B: Yeah. And even, you know, is it enough to say I heard about it on TikTok. I mean there's so many ways that you can come across a product on TikTok. You can learn about it in the comments. Section. You can watch a sponsored ad, you can watch an organic influencer, you can, you know there, there are multiple, you can see it in TikTok shop. I mean right off the bat there, there are four very different, you know, ways that someone can find uh, a product on TikTok. So I think, yeah, you have to be willing to get granular, be more precise, be more exacting in your questions and, and find, you know, we have a way of doing it but you know, challenge yourself to find ways where you can gather those more detailed responses so that you can uncover new opportunities.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's the key, right? Detailed responses. And I think that's the thing that I really like about like after I dug uh, into look, look a little bit more is it's like I love um, getting lots and lots of answers and the post purchase surveys are so good for that. Right. And it's like, but it's, it's very uh, shallow information. But the richness and the depth that you can get, I think that's what's unlocking things. And again, I'm going to reiterate this again for the brands that are listening. If you feel like you are stuck installed in your advertising growth, it's likely because uh, you'll hear people talk about this all the time. It's like, oh, you need more creative. And it's like you do, but you need more insightful creative. You need creative that at least has that idea. It's like, but why is this creative going to work differently? In order to find those insights, I think that you need to do some deeper customer research. And I think that one of the best ways to do this is to not necessarily do a focus group but to your point, like let's actually get into their homes, let's see how are they using it, why are they using it this way? Like what else did they evaluate? Those are the things that I think can help unlock that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean get into their lives. You get into their homes, get into their lives. I mean sometimes we'll even talk to people about the, the medium of advertising itself or what, what is breaking through to you? We understand you're seeing a lot of ads these days. Like what, what gets your attention and why and what do you expect to see about ads from a bank? Or what do you expect to see about ads for, you know, xyz, laundry detergent, cars, you name it. It's, it's important to sort of understand what the conventions of that category is advertising, what those are so that you can come up with a creative strategy that's more disruptive or that can break through the clutter and stand out, because, I mean, that's really what we're up against now is, like, people are so bombarded with messages all the time. How can you emerge as a human voice in the context of all this slop, you know? Mm.

Speaker A: No, that's really good. I want to chat a little bit about who is Melinda Santa. Huh. Because I think it's fun to get to know the human being. Um, what's your favorite quote or one of your favorite quotes?

Speaker B: Um, I have quotes all around my office. One of them is, um, from Calamity Jane. Um, if a girl wants to be a legend, she should just go ahead and be one. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, I mean, I know I've talked a lot about women today, but most of our. Most of our products are geared toward women, so we talk to a lot of women about a lot of things, and I think women tend to quell their own voice a lot. And, um, we're taught to be quiet and not to be the big personality in the room. And, um, I think that's ridiculous. I think that, um, a lot of women want to be known for something and should be. Should strive to stand out and strive to be legendary. Every person should.

Speaker A: Yeah. Why not? Like, I don't know what the downside would be to it, right? But it's like, if you've got something to share, like, get up there and share it. Like you said, if you be a

Speaker B: legend, everyone has something to say. Everyone is interesting. Everyone is interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah. I do feel that way. My wife teases, uh, me about this a little bit. I don't. I don't know how I say it. Like, I. I don't, uh. I don't categorize people very well. Like, it's almost like I don't see categories, um, to the point where it's. It's very odd and weird. Right? Um, and the example that I give is that it's like I was friends with literally everybody in high school, meaning, like, the janitors. And everybody's, like, knew their names to the point where it's like, um, the one guy, Vic. One, uh, of the janitors, one of the night janitors. Um, I used to run the candy shop at the school. And so it's like, I would work that at lunchtime and whatever, and he was like. He wrote me a note. He was like, hey, I had some extra floor wax. When I got done with the cafeteria, I went ahead and waxed your candy room for you too. It's just genuinely friends. To your point where it's like, uh, why did you do that? It's like, well, I found him interesting. It's like I talked to him. It's like I got to know him. It's like I would learn. It's like, whatever. It's like, to your point, everybody is interesting. Everybody has a story to tell. We just oftentimes don't take enough time to actually just listen to those stories. And I think if you did, you'd learn some very interesting things.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I'm just a curious person. I guess that's why I've ended up doing this. Um, but yeah, I think everyone is interesting. I, you know, to the chagrin of my children, I think I embarrass them sometimes. Like, I, I will talk to every Uber driver. I will talk to, you know, every waiter or waitress or bartender. I just think it's interesting, you know, to see what, how's your day going so far? You know, And I love talking to strangers.

Speaker A: We all want to be seen, and so I think that that matters. I think that's a really good thing that you do that. Um, so being a legend, I like that. Um, do you feel like, do you feel like you're being the legend that you want to be? Are you saying what you want to say and getting out there and doing it?

Speaker B: I am m starting to. And it's taken me my lifetime, I think, to really live into that to the extent that I want to. And I think some of that comes with age. I'm a pretty seasoned executive at this point. Um, and it's a good, it's a good feeling. I think that, um, we're in a position. I say we. So I'm kind of talking about my team and myself. I mean, we listen to people all day long. It's what we do. And we do have a pretty good grasp of where the country is at. Um, and because we do our own recruiting, we've also built this database of tens of thousands of people all over the country. And, um, we're actually going to partner with, uh, the two way interactive YouTube show, um, on multi generational conversations about the American dream. This is something new that we're doing a new partnership with. Um. Yeah, yeah. And I think, um, it's so funny that everyone kind of knows, like, what marketing cohort they belong to these days. Like, everyone's very clear on whether they're gen Z out, gen Alpha, gen X, baby boomer. Millennial. Everyone knows where they fit. There's, like, all kinds of memes about it. It's just so funny to me, like, that. I don't know, 10 or 20 years, that would have been super cheesy, but today, it's kind of taken for granted. But we. We walk around with these stereotypes of, like, oh, millennials, they're so precious and they love to be online and, um, whatever. Like, boomers are clueless. Like, no, we're all people. We all are living in our various contexts, and there's so much we can learn from each other rather than feeling, like, pigeonholed into this, like, cohort stereotype. So, yeah, I think. And quite frankly, Gen Z is great. Like, they have amazing relationships with their parents that I didn't necessarily have when I was in my 20s. You know? Um, I think today, young people are eager to hear from older people and gain the benefits of their wisdom. Um, and older people can learn a lot from people in their 20s. Uh, today's young people are very sophisticated in their knowledge base. There's a lot, I think, that we can learn from one another. And so that's a long answer to your question, which is having a voice, but I'm finding that voice. I think we're finding our role in the world.

Speaker A: I love this thing that you're. This project you're working on, um, because I think it's important. My wife and I talk about this, uh, from time to time, where it seems like a lot of what we've done now is. Even where you live is entirely segmented, where it's like, if you've got young kids, you all live in a neighborhood with other young kids and, like, families the same age as you. And then, like, then you move into, you know, whatever the next stage is. And then it's like, then you're all in the 55 community, and then you're all in the retirement home. And. And to a point, one of the problems with that is that, well, and let's even say, like, when you're young and you have kids, it's like all of your activities are consumed with other things. With the kids, too. Right? And so it used to be it's like, hey, you played sports, and it's like you showed up once a week, and that was the thing. Now it's like, no, it's traveling, sports. And so you got three, four nights a week that you're doing this. And so, you know, your entire bubble exists with people that are in the exact same stage of life as you To a point. And uh, we miss that opportunity to have these multi generational, um, conversations. Uh, except for maybe when we show up at Thanksgiving. And then it's like, oh, it's crazy Uncle Frank. And it's like I disagree with everything he has to say. And so it's like, so we're missing those opportunities to have these conversations with people that we disagree with in order to understand why do they think that way. Because they didn't just come up with this idea on their own. They've experienced things that have maybe created these things and there's things they can learn from you. And so I love this project. It sounds really cool.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited about it. And I think you're absolutely right. We uh, we are in a moment, I think in our country where we just are finding some false sense of security and siloing ourselves off. And it's to the detriment of mutual respect and just an understanding that, hey, we're all, nobody has it together. We're all experiencing whatever the collective anxiety or stress. But, um, but we can come together around these points of joy and points of passion and interest. Um, and I think there are signs of a lot of hope. I mean I'm a huge board game nerd. And um, so I've gotten into mahjong lately, which used to be kind of a retirement community game, but now it's like everybody's playing it.

Speaker A: It's the hot game right now. You're absolutely right.

Speaker B: Right. And so, you know, that's, that's really fun to see multi general, different age groups coming together around games like that or you know, pickleball or like backgammon's making a comeback. Like it's just kind of fun to see that because, uh, it's all these kind of old fashioned analog things coming

Speaker A: back, which I'm so happy with. Uh, I think that we need a lot more analog back in our lives as well. Um, that's one of the best, um, I don't know, directional changes I've seen in society is, is getting back to some analog stuff. There's a craving for it for everybody.

Speaker B: There is. I think magazines are kind of making a comeback. There's a desire for the print magazine again. I don't think the newspaper will ever come back.

Speaker A: But, um, yeah, yeah, I do like magazines. Um, I don't know if I have any subscriptions left. I think I still have family handyman used, um, to subscribe to Popular Science and Popular Mechanics, but I think those either expired or they just don't exist anymore. I don't remember, but it's like I don't get them anymore. But for the same reason of what you said. It's like, man, I'm on a screen all day long. Like, I legitimately kind of like to sometimes just like sit on the porch and read a magazine.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Maybe I'm just old, but like, oh, like no screen. Just flip through this casually and see what I see.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's, uh, and there's, there's the role of light too, you know, because, um, sitting on the porch is probably what you're, what's really giving you the benefit there. Magazines are great, but it's like getting outside, you know, sky before screens. Like I try to say, you know, like, you wake up in the morning. Rather than reaching for my phone, I try to step outside and just like, look at the sun. The sun is good. The sun gives us energy. The sun makes things grow. You know, like, we need the outdoors, we need the sun, we need natural light.

Speaker A: Well, okay, that brings us back to the hippie dippy stuff you were talking about earlier. Um, oh, good. Right, good. So you were talking about like, oh, make it sound. We don't sound too woo woo. But here's the thing. I think science is just catching up to the woo woo stuff. Um, because. Thank you more and more. And I would even say that like, religion has maybe had it right all along. Um, so without going into anybody's backgrounds or things like that, unless, you know, want to, whatever. But, um, there's a, there's a Bible verse that talks about the rocks cry out to God. And it's like, that sounds really funny. And it's like, do they really, though? And it's like I, I would say like, yes, they do. Let's even look at some of the things we know about, like different rocks. They have, they vibrate at different frequencies. And it's like I believe that that's singing a song to a point to God. We've actually discovered there's a really good, uh, speaker named Louis Giglio who takes, uh, the sound of stars, like pulsar stars or whatever, and takes them and blends them together with whales and then overlays how great is our God with this. And you're just like, you're floored. You're like, the stars are actually singing a song to their creator. The whales are going on with it. And then it matches up with this and you're just like, it's beautiful. And I get goosebumps. And so, so to A point. We are vibrations. The whole thing is all vibration. Sound is vibration, all of it.

Speaker B: I totally, uh, am with you on that. I think that we are all vibrational creatures. And the extent to which we can raise our own vibrations, the better connections we'll have. Because then we'll be on a frequency where we are attracting higher vibration people. Higher vibration things. Um, yeah, it's all very manifesty, but that's honestly what speaks to me. And I have nothing against religion. I think people need to find their soul and express their soul in whatever way works for them. Um, if it's religion, that's great. If it's Buddhism or some other philosophy, terrific. But I think on a very primal level, we are vibrational beings. And you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of, uh, There are a lot of movements today around, like, understanding the wavelengths, like the Schumann Resonance, for example. You know, that whole theory of the electromagnetic frequencies of the Earth and how it's at a certain megahertz and the human brain happens to match it. I mean, there are apps you can listen to to dial in to frequencies that are super healing. They just are. I, you know, um, because we are vibrational creatures.

Speaker A: Nikola Tesla talked a lot about this as well. Um, you know, the reason why Tesla's name that. But Nikola Tesla has been one of my favorite inventors for a long time. And I do think that science has continued to catch up more and more and more to, let's just say, like, what religions have said, right? Like, even if you look at like a lot of old things that talk about the vibrations and how things fit. Um, and even like what you would say is like, what maybe people would say is like, oh, that's like good vibrations or whatever. It's like. No, no, no. Like, the reality is, I think that more and more science is starting to catch up to this and realize it's like, oh, there's something here to this. There's a book. I don't think I have it with me here right now. I think I have it at the house, um, called Switch on youn brain by Dr. Carolyn Leaf. And she shows that there's a study that was done at Harvard, um, where even when people think negative thoughts, their DNA shrivels up. And when they think positive thoughts, their DNA loosens back up again and actually shows that. I think it was like, the number sounds insane, but I believe it's a 400 times improvement in, um, immunity against, uh, the specific study they had was immunity against HIV. 400 times improvement in this immunity by that DNA loosening up. Well, and why we know that when things are tighter, they vibrate at a different frequency than when things are loose. Right. Like, there's just something, I think, that we're going to discover more and more about the way things vibrate and the way things heal and the way things build and grow and connect together.

Speaker B: I agree with you. I think, you know, wellness is really tied into this. And just, you know, what. What matters more than feeling good? Nothing. I mean, every. You know, everything we do is sort of designed to make ourselves feel good and feel better. And there's. There's nothing wrong with that, you know, and looking for ways to feel better in your body and looking for ways to feel better in your brain and stoke neuroplasticity. It's an exciting time. They're really, I think, uncovering very interesting things about the brain now with neuroscience and AI, I think at the next decade, the next five years are going to be amazing in terms of what we learn about what it means to be a human being.

Speaker A: Completely agree. Well, Melinda, it has been very fun getting to know you, learning from you. If people want to work with you, what is the best way for them to follow you or get in touch?

Speaker B: Yeah, email me. Um, Melinda. And it's M M A L I N D Aoklook app. Looklook app. Or go to come to our website looklook app. You can follow my substack at the virtual confessional. Um, also you can look up my name, Melinda Sana. Um, then for our luxury people, you can follow us on Instagram uxuryverse or on TikTok. Sorry, uxuryverse100. Um, and Tiktoke100.

Speaker A: Very cool. Um, it's been really enjoyable to learn from you, talk with you today. Uh, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Speaker B: Likewise. Likewise. William, thank you so much. This went so fast. It was, um, super fun to chat.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah, you too.

Speaker B: All right, take care.

Speaker A: See ya. Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time. And be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.