How Top Leaders Evolve: Career, Marketing & Personal Growth with Michelle Brogan

Speaker A: It's actually allowing yourself time to think about what needs to happen. What's the direction we want to go in? You know, how are we going to get there and how are we going to make it happen? Because if you're too deep into the trenches of doing stuff, then you could be going in the completely wrong direction and not even realize it. So, you know, it's really stepping back and making sure that you're always looking at the bigger picture of what's going on. You know, what is it we want to achieve and make sure everyone's focused on the most important pieces.

Speaker B: You're listening to Creative Leadership with Heart, a, uh, podcast that inspires people to take action and be the leader they

Speaker C: were born to be.

Speaker B: I'm Coach Rico, and I'm known for coaching and training executives, leaders, leaders, founders, and high performers at Fortune 100 businesses, startups, and more. I'm here to answer your questions about leadership and personal development, while also asking you questions that can unlock your untapped potential.

Speaker C: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Creative Leadership with Heart. Today we have the fabulous Michelle Brogan. She is a marketing executive. She's currently the head of Go to Market at Allianz, uh, formerly regional head of marketing at Symantec, and a mother, mentor, and coach. Michelle, thank you for joining us. How are you today?

Speaker A: I'm, um, good. Thank you so much, Rico, for inviting me onto your podcast. I'm delighted to be here.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I appreciate you making, uh, making your time available, because I know you're in. Our time zones are, like, almost opposite. So it's in evening for you, morning for me. Um, so we'll jump right in. So tell us a little bit about yourself. You're the head of Go to Market. How did you get to where you are? What was your journey like?

Speaker A: So, um, I think for me, I was quite lucky, um, in that in the early 90s, when digital marketing was starting to evolve and it was a relatively new concept, I fell into it by. By, by chance. I wanted a proper marketing job where, you know, it was TV advertising, radio advertising, and I ended up in the digital space. And, um, I was actually quite fortunate because as we know now, you know, that's the. The trend that evolved, and it's. It's pretty much all digital marketing now. So, um, I got in quite early on, um, and then, you know, progressed as, you know, the digital marketing industry progressed over time.

Speaker C: Yeah. So going a step back because you wanted to be a marketer, um, what was the dream when you're growing up, when little Michelle growing up, what was the dream? What did you want to do and how did you end up deciding to go on this path?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think there was like a TV show and uh, there was, it was about these creative advertising guys who used to come up with, with advertising. It was kind of the core, I think it was called 30 something or, or something along those lines. But um, it looked like it was like a really exciting, interesting job. Um, and that's what kind of the creative element really drew me in. You know, early on in wanting to put together, I guess, key messages and an advertising campaigns that would resonate with customers and really sell the proposition that you're, you're trying to get people to buy. It was, it was really that, that kind of drew me in early on.

Speaker C: Yeah, that uh, it's interesting. 30 something. We're probably dating ourselves because I know that show really well. I don't know if other people. I think the, the, this generation's version of that maybe is Mad Men or, or something that like that. Right. Watching Jon hamm run this like 60s, 70s or 60s, 50s agency. Ad agency. Um, so what, what's your. So when it came to marketing, what was your mission? Like, what did you want to get into it? You talked a lot about like creative and storytelling. But for you, what was your. The why behind marketing?

Speaker A: I think, um, for me, one of the things I've always enjoyed in the marketing space is that it's always been evolving and changing and there's been new technologies and new dimensions to marketing that have happened over the last two decades. And I think that's what really kept me engaged. Because as social media channels come on analytics come out, the depth of information you can now find out about your customers is so vast. You know, when I studied marketing at college, it was like, you know, an ABC profile, blue collar worker. You know, what you knew about a customer was pretty much nothing. You were basically just breaking the world into five different buckets. Whereas now you have really detailed insights into different customer Personas and real knowledge about who the customers are. And you can become so targeted you don't have to spend millions on advertising running massive campaigns. You can actually run a campaign on a very small amount of money because you can be very, very targeted if you know exactly what your customer profile looks like for the customer who's going to buy your product. And I think for me, just the way the digital ecosystem works and the way customers move around it and sometime parts of it is just common sense. If an online Shopping journey doesn't work. It doesn't work and you're not going to make money. And you need to look at the customer insights and what customers are telling as to where the blockages are in that customer path that's preventing them from buying. Because I know myself from my own personal experience. Sometimes you're online and you actually want to buy something, but the company has made it so difficult to fill out the form, or there's a question that you can't answer and you can't actually buy the product. So, you know, it's become, I guess, so much more personalized and intuitive that you're always learning and there's always new things coming. And I, I can't wait to see what direction it's going to go in next. Because, you know, there's. AI is changing everything again. And, um, you know, it's going to make things so much more sophisticated. So it's definitely an industry that's constantly changing, constantly evolving and definitely becoming so much more sophisticated, um, on different levels.

Speaker C: Yeah. So that's amazing. Right? Like, so technology has changed, access to data has changed, user behavior has changed. Uh, and you've had big jobs and you evolved with this. The one thing I want to ask is, how has the storytelling piece evolved for you? Right, so you had big job at Symantec, you have a big job now. And the stories that we tell have to evolve along with the data technology and all that stuff. So for you, how has that change and evolved over time in the way you tell stories and the way you connect users with products?

Speaker A: I think, um, you know, what I kind of learned over the years and something that really clicks with me now more than ever is really, you know, what are the benefits the products are selling. And, you know, earlier in my career used to hear the sales team say over and over again, you know, what are the benefits? You're not selling the benefits because, you know, sometimes, you know, our product pages, there's, you know, there could be 40 things there and, you know, from a customer, like, what are the benefits that are going to actually resonate? Uh, and for me now that's something that really clicks within my current role is really understanding what, what are the key benefits? And, um, you know, it's only two or three that are really going to resonate with that customer as to why they want to buy the product. You know, within a product, there's so many things, you know, when you sell a car, you know, you don't say, it's going to have wheels, it's going to have a gear stick. You know, there's things that you just take for granted that the product is going to have. But what's special about this car that's better than other cars that you're not going to get is going to be that one or two things that's going to get the customer over the line. Um, so for me with regards to storytelling, um, it's really about resonating and getting the key benefits across. But it's also that wider story, you know, because like we sell health insurance within the line of business I work in. Um, but there, there's like a whole health story that goes around health insurance. And you know, we know from a search engine optimization, um, perspective that before somebody buys a product they're doing their research online. You know, they're, they're looking up non branded keywords and there's that whole urgent earlier stage in the customer journey where you can catch somebody much earlier in the process. And if you have really good, strong, compelling content that is providing them with good, strong information that they need, they'll feel the value in it. And that's your opportunity to get your brand up out front ahead of the competition, um, and start to build that relationship with the customer. So when they get further down the funnel and they get to the point where actually I need health insurance and they start typing in the brand keywords into Google and they see your brand appear, they already know your brand because you know, they found out their visa information for their relocation or they found out information about maybe a health condition they had, um, which are all related topics. So you're, you're providing a service but you're getting that brand exposure. Um, and you know, I know you know already but you know, the whole digital marketing piece is a digital ecosystem and um, and customers are moving around. You know, they, they might be looking at content on your website, but it's not within the product space, it's within an education space. People, they're on social media, they might have filled out a lead form, could be sending them an email. And it takes multiple interactions to get that customer across the line. Um, and you don't know which one interaction is going to be, but the combination of being in all of those faces promoting your brand and showing up with the correct messaging or bringing value to the customer is going to get that sale across the line. And it's kind of like a team. You know, it's a combined effort across all the channels that's going to really get you strong ROIs on all of your campaigns and um, that's the best I love, I love the orchestration of pulling it all together and then I love the reward of seeing it work and seeing it happen. You know, seeing lots more traffic coming into the website, seeing revenue growing, you know, getting good net promoter scores from customers because you know, they're, they're happy with their service, they're happy with how the whole customer onboarding process has worked, etc. Um, and how the whole thing comes together is really satisfying.

Speaker C: I love that you talk walked through the whole thing because if you are a non marketing savvy executive, you need to listen to what Michelle just talked about for the last couple minutes because there's so many uh, startups and so many executives out there who think, oh, um, you know, marketing people just want to buy. But the truth is there's only a small percentage, maybe 5% of people who come to whatever it is with the intent to buy. And to your point, I don't remember what the stats are, I know somebody ran this, but it's like 5 to 12 touch points before somebody actually trust you enough to maybe make a purchase. Yeah. And some folks, whether it's personal branding,

Speaker A: I think one of the things for me, because, yeah, I was just going to say one of the things for me is because I've been in the industry so long and I've evolved with it, you know, it's like getting a new learning module each year, each couple of years and I just like, you know, if I was coming into the industry now, the way it's evolved and the complexity of it and there's so much to it, you know, for somebody starting out now, it probably is a bit overwhelming trying to understand how the whole whole thing stacks together or how it works. And like you were saying, like you, you might just be focusing on one thing, one element and thinking that one element is enough, but and missing out the fact that, you know, it's like a jigsaw, you know, all the pieces need to be there in order to put it together. But you know, coming in now, you know, because it's so sophisticated and there's so much to it, you know, it probably is much more difficult for people coming new into the space to really understand it, you know, whereas I think because we've been around for much longer, you know, and we've kind of seen the jigsaw be built, we probably can see how the pieces stack together.

Speaker C: Mhm. And the level love that you talked about, what are the, you know, one to two, three Max, things that make it different. And what a lot of people maybe don't understand is that's branding, right? Like there's so much now, there's so much competition. No matter what industry you're in, there's a lot of competition. And to your point, Instead of the 40 reasons why you're better, like what are the two to three things that you solve for the user? Like what are their biggest pain points and that they're gonna actually say you're different, you do it faster, stronger, better, whatever it is. And if, if it's your personal brand, your company is a brand, whatever it is, it's important to create that distinguishing feature and to distinguish yourself from all the noise and the competition. So I love that you said that. So people, whether you're thinking of building your personal brand or your business, like that is an important thing to lay out first, is what makes you different. I liken it to like, what is your market dominating position? So I love that you said that. Um, I want to transition a little bit though too because not only did has the industry evolved, but, but I'm sure your skills and your career and your abilities as a leader has had to evolve, so I'd love to talk about that. So watching the marketing industry change, the digital marketing industry change, how has your leadership, how has your career had to evolve and change along with it?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, for me, when I was much, um, earlier in my career and I had much more junior roles, I think for me that the volume of work I did was, was massive. You know what I mean? I worked really long hours. You know, I had a real drive to learn and get things to work. Um, because a lot of the time, you know, you might try three or four different angles on something and only one of them is going to work. So if you test it one by one, it's going to take a long time to get a success. So, you know, I would like do all four at the same time to make sure that I got a result at the end of the process. And I think, you know, for a long time, you know, for me success was delivering stuff and producing results and, you know, demonstrating that I could deliver results. Um, and that worked for a good period of time and I got a few promotions off the back of always delivering and showing successes. But then I got to a point in my career where, you know, it flipped, um, and I had to change. I read a book, um, which was called what get you, what get you here won't get you there. And I was reading the book and I realized I was Bob. And I was like, oh my God, I'm Bob. Um, and up until that point being Bob was, was the person that you needed to be, and I needed to change from being Bob. Bob was the person who did everything and was involved in everything. And I needed to transition myself away from being Bob, but being the leader and enabling the team to be able to, to do it, you know, and if there's a crisis, the team being able to deal with the crisis and, you know, me not having to come in out of my holiday in order to sell something because nobody knew what to do. And I think that for a lot of people it's uh, a difficult, it is a difficult transition to go from being the person who's pulling it all together to being the person who's leading it and enabling the team and giving that direction and, and building confidence in the team as well to be able to do it. Um, so that for me was, was, um, a big transition and also really, you know, the change in how, you know, you need to change as, as a leader and being able to align your stakeholders, ensuring that, you know, when you have a project or an initiative that you need to get delivered that, that the other functional departments, the other leaders in the business are bought into that idea as well and supporting it so that you don't have obstacles along, um, the way, etc. And it's really that, I guess that space of, uh, bringing people together to unite them around a problem that needs to be solved and then getting the problem solved and the solution implemented, etc. So those were the two big transition points for me. Um, and it's like riding a bike. Once you transition, you wonder, why was I not doing this before? You know, it makes so much more sense. But, um, I think at different stages in your career, you need to do different things to be successful. And then when you start to hit a brick wall of not been able to move forward, then you need to, to relook and see what skills do I need to change. You know, how, how do I need to relook at this in order to be successful in the, in the next, um, next stage of my career.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. Um, and that is the thing you outlined is probably one of the most difficult things that a theme that I've had, whether it's people on the podcast or people that I'm coaching, is how to transition from individual contributor into manager leader. Um, and some of the things are, are even how do you transition from manager to director. Director to vp, like all those things. Right. And Steve Johnson, who is a, was, ah, a mentor, is a mentor of mine. Um, he's the VP of design at Netflix. The thing he told me was, and I use this on a lot of people is you can't do your old job and your new job at the same time. And so when you get that framing where you're like, yeah, if you, if you're an individual contributor and you still keep trying to do your individual contributor job, but you also have to develop the strategies and lead the team and develop people and all those things, you can't do those things at the same time. Yeah, right. It's just near impossible. Um, so that's the biggest thing that, that I had to learn, helped me transition from individual contributor and it's having that.

Speaker A: Sorry, I cut across you. Yeah, it's, it's actually allowing yourself time to think about what needs to happen, what's the direction we want to go in, you know, how are we going to get there and how are we going to make it happen? Because if you're, you're too deep into the trenches of doing stuff, then you could be going in the completely wrong direction and not even realize it. So you know, it's really stepping back and making sure that you're always looking at the bigger picture of what's going on. You know, what is it we want to achieve and make sure everyone's focused on the most important pieces because nobody wants to be working on stuff that has no value or, you know, is complete waste of time. Everyone wants to know that they're putting their heart and soul into things that are actually going to deliver results and they're going to make a difference.

Speaker C: That's a great point and I'd love to ask how you've done that. So you've worked in different cultures with different working styles. So it's a two parter. So one you mentioned, you know, getting buy in from stakeholders. So I'd love to hear like how you go about that and how maybe your strategies had to evolve over time. And getting stakeholder buy in and then also building that passion and that connection for your team to feel like they're doing meaningful work.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think from my perspective, like when I worked in my previous company, it was um, it was a mercenary organization. And when you say the word mercenary, I think people think it's like military army, that you're like assassinating people. But it's really just a high performance type environment where you're Very focused on getting the work done and delivering results. And it's very much an environment of, you know, Bob, you need to do this. Mary, you need to this. And everyone's running at 100 miles an hour to deliver it. Um, whereas in my current organization, it's a highly communal organization, which means it's very much focused on relationships and having a strong network in the organization and very much aligned around what's the problem we want to solve, and everyone aligning that they want to solve that problem before you go and fix it. So when I. When I joined the organization, you know, I came running in at 100 miles an hour. And, you know, nobody tells you when you walk into a company, things are done differently here. It's just, you know, you start trying to work and you start to feel like you can't get stuff done, and you don't know why you can't get it done. And other people in the organization can just see that you're an outlier from the outside because you're not working in the same methodology that everyone else is. And I think for me, once I understood that I was in a different culture, I had to totally, um, unpick myself and start to change and alter my behaviors. I had to focus on starting to build my network within the organization, um, and really put a lot of time into building those relationships. So that when the time came that I needed to drive project forward, I knew my stakeholders well, they knew I had credibility, that I knew. They knew I knew what I was doing. So that when a project would come up and I would say, I need resources from your area. I need resources. This is my problem. This is why I need to fix it. You know, they would then automatically jump in and say, yeah, get it. Let's move forward. Whereas when I initially came in, I was, like, bouncing off people and I was like. It felt like. It felt like nobody here wants me to do any work. But, you know, once you understand the culture and the environment, you adapt your style. Suddenly it's as easy working in that culture as it was the culture I left behind. And I think that's something that, um, I see sometimes, you know, in organizations, people come in and they're very strong people, and they leave within a year and they're gone. And, you know, it's because they can't adapt to that change in culture. Um, and maybe their preference is to work in the other type of culture. But, you know, it is about changing your style. Ah. And working out how do you work successfully in that new Environment.

Speaker C: That's fantastic. Um, what would you say was the biggest challenge in making that transition? You said you talked a little bit about it, right? Because you went from a mercenary to some m. More of a communal type environment. But what was the biggest challenge for you in trying to navigate that change?

Speaker A: I think for me it was like my, my, my default style is mercenary. Um, and I guess I probably worked in a lot of mercenary organizations because, you know, just the speed of getting things done, etc. I think they, the biggest change for me was really having to sit down and, and look at myself, um, and accept the fact that it's me that needs to change. I'm not going to be able to change an entire company into a mercenary style. It's just not going to happen. And really just kind of sitting down and um, you know, it's when you have to start changing your behaviors. It's like, you know, the first couple of times, you know, you're trying out, ah, new things and you're, you're trying to adapt your style. It feels awkward and you feel like, you know, God, you know, you feel like a fraud, etc. But then, you know, it's like a muscle. Once you start building it up, then it becomes second nature and the more you practice it. But really the, When I started to, to build out my network and I realized, you know, I have to, I have to get to know all of these people in the organization that, you know, are key to me being able to deliver stuff and build a relationship with them. You know, I was like, what am I gonna say? You know, how, where do you start? You know, because it was really, it was a new space. Like I, I am a friendly person and I, I get on, um, with people at work. But you know, the piece of having to build out your network and build those relationships and you know, from a. Very much of the starting point was like, well, what am I going to say? Like if I put in a meeting, like, what am I going to talk about? And then I like have my little list writing down, like, what are the topics I'm going to discuss with this person so that I don't show up and have nothing to say. And um, what I found was like, over time, once I started building relationships, I didn't have to make notes anymore because once I got a feel for what they were working on or what challenges they had, I would then quite quickly be able to go, okay, well we're doing this and you start to naturally start to evolve and suddenly you're Going to a meeting and they're talking about their stuff and you're helping them with their challenges and vice versa, that it becomes more natural. But it's definitely that starting point. And it's like anything. I remember being in a social media meeting years ago and someone saying, you know, I want to get into social media. How do I start? And the social media manager was like, you send a tweet. And the person was like, but I don't know what to say, what will they say? And they're like, you can say anything you want.

Speaker C: It.

Speaker A: It's like, o. You know, it. It's like that, you know, it's like really trying to. To start with the. The content or get the narrative going.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's in. It's crazy how fear and just our. We get in our own way just like that. Right. I work with a lot of people who, like it or not, the world is becoming a creator economy. Right? So everybody has. I don't want to say everybody, but a lot of people are now understanding the value of a personal brand and, you know, creating content to share. And the most common thing I run into is like, well, I don't. Who am I? Or like, you know, what do I talk about? And for me it's like, well, what do you love? What do you love to talk about anyway? Like, what do you talk about with your friends? What do you talk about at work? What do you talk about? Um, if somebody were just to sit down and listen to you talk, what would you tell them? Right? And we put all these, I call them false blockers, because no one's telling you not to say that except for yourself, right? Just like that person is just, you know, how do you get started on social media? You post. Well, what I post about. Well, what do you love post about that. So I love that you said that. Um, so I want to kind of shift now also into advice mode. Right. So a lot of this is people are listening or listening to hear about your story, hear about your struggles, but also what advice you would have. So you now going through all the things that you've been through, what advice would you give your younger self?

Speaker A: I think, um, the advice I would definitely give my younger self, and it's something that has only clicked with me in the last few years, is it's okay to ask for help. You don't have to do it all yourself. And I think, like, quite early in my career, like, I had this pressure on myself that I had to be the one to figure it out. I had to be the one that had all the answers. So, you know, I would spend a lot of time figuring things out myself and then coming have the answer, you know, I know how to do it, etc. Uh, and what I realized in the last few years is like, do you know what, like, you know, it's much quicker. You know, other people have really ideas too. People are actually really happy, you know, if you say, oh, hi, Rico, could I get your advice on something? You know, you're delighted that you're being asked for advice and you're, you know, your opinions valued and you would be thought of in that way. And, um, I realized that, you know, I probably would have had a much easier road to get to where I am if I had asked for help and advice more in, earlier in my career rather than thinking that I had to be the one to figure it out, if you know what I mean. Um, definitely, you know, ask for help, get advice, you know, and it doesn't take away from anything you deliver. Um, and I guess be kind, you know, be, be kind to people around you. You never know what's happening in someone else's life. Um, and you know, we, I know we don't go into the office as much as we used to, but you know, we, we all come to work, but we all have a life outside of work. And, and you never know what's happened in someone else's life. And you know, sometimes you go onto a video call or you go into a meeting and someone's a bit grumpy, um, you know, you don't know their cat might have died that morning and they haven't said, and they're having a really, a really bad day. So, you know, I think it's definitely, especially in today's day, I can't say the words. But you know, with so much focus on mental health and health and well being, you know, I think the kinder we can be to people and bringing that understanding into work as well will definitely go a long way.

Speaker C: And it doesn't take extra effort to be kind. Yes, right. It, you may not be in your nature, which for some people maybe because some people are blunt. Right. And it's not that they're mean or, or have bad intentions, it's just they say what's on their mind, but it doesn't take much time to take a second and say it back in your head and to, to be kind. And I totally agree. Like, that's a small thing that we can all do for each other.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Going back to asking for help. And for me, that was one of the biggest unlocks. And it actually, I believe it actually helped me propel my career forward because it's getting into our next. The next question I want to ask you is the folks that I would ask for help a lot of the time were mentors or people who had been there and done that. And for a lot of people, you may think that, oh, if I ask this VP or CEO or something for help, that they may think I'm not capable. And it's quite the opposite. When you ask for help, you're actually tapping into their years of knowledge. And it's, it's a great shortcut and a great unlock for people who are willing to do it. And I was absolutely willing to do it. So the question I have for you is what role did mentorship or coaching play for you? And if you want to, this could be your, like, awards moment. Are there any mentors you'd like to mention, um, that really impacted your life?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. I think I, um, I have a sponsor within alliance, um, Tony Bradshaw. And you know, he, you know, is very senior within the, the organization. And I, because I, I built a relationship with him. And like you, like you said, you know, you have someone that you can ask questions to and, and sometimes you might think, oh, are they, are they going to think you know, less of me? Because I don't know the answer. But the reality of it is, is that you actually start to build confidence in yourself because the, the doubts or the questions that you. You have, or the unanswered questions when you actually speak to someone who is like, you know, in that much more senior position to you and has been so much more successful and, and then you start talking to them and you start realizing, oh, there's traits you have and I have them too. Or, you know, you, you get little nuggets of advice to things that maybe you would never get exposure to that type of information and see something from that perspective. Um, that, for me, it really helped build my, my own confidence in myself. Um, currently, um, we have a mentorship program, um, within alliance as well. So I, I'm a mentor to someone within the company. But it is so lovely and rewarding when you're the one giving the advice back and the person is really responding and, you know, is getting that, I guess, like you said, that Fox track insight into stuff that, you know, they wouldn't normally get, you know, so I think, I think it works both ways. And I think I, um, It doesn't really matter what level in an organization you are, you know, having a mentor sponsor there all the time. Like I told my, my mentoree, you know, well, I have a mentor too. And she was like, what? You know, she couldn't believe that I would have a mentor. And I'm like, of course, of course it never ends. You know, there's, there's always, um, there's always that need for, you know, opening your mind, getting more advice, um, and more direction and, and sometimes it's just about getting clarity on, on different scenarios as to, you know, the direction you should be going in, et cetera.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's, I have a mentor, I have a coach, I, uh, have many mentors actually. And it's that, that thing where sometimes you can't get out of your own head and sometimes hearing it back or having someone ask you a simple yet provocative question can get you out of your own head. And it can also unlock, you know, another way of looking at things. So 100%. Um, and I've also learned from people that I, from mentees, that you said it too. It goes both ways. Like, I learn a lot from mentees, uh, maybe more so than that they learn from me. Right. Because you talked about someone who wants to get into social media or something like that. I'm sure there's a lot of executives out there that don't know where to start and there's a 30 something or 20 something that'll say, well, just start today. Right. And whatever you want. Right. And see, so that is a mentorship that can go both ways. Right. So it's not always a one way street when it comes to these things.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, definitely, definitely. Um, and things are changing that one of my, one of my fears is that, you know, the world will change from under me because, you know, technology changes at such a fast pace. Pace that, you know, you do need to stay close to, you know, the millennials and the young Gen X's etc, because, you know, it, it's, it's natural for them. You know what I mean? They're born into technology. They're, they're on it all the time. Um, we don't have all day to spend on it. Um, so there, there's definitely things that we will learn from them. Definitely around patterns of technology adoption and customer behavior and stuff as that all starts to start to change and evolve and um, also emerging technologies that are probably there that haven't come up onto the main radar yet as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, there's something you mentioned earlier and we're not. We won't get into it now because, um, we can talk for another 40 minutes, but I want. I'm going to do a series on, like, AI's impact on different industries. So I'd love to have you back, if you're okay with that. Oh, yeah, like talking about emerging technologies. Okay, cool. And so, Michelle, uh, if people want to get in touch with you or want to ask you a question, what's the best way for people to find you?

Speaker A: Um, I'm on. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm quite easy to find. Um, I dip in and out of social media. Um, but, um, if they wants to reach out to me, just connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, I pretty much connect with everyone on LinkedIn. I amalgamate a mass following on LinkedIn. So you can just connect with me and drop me a message and I'm happy to respond.

Speaker C: Okay, perfect. And I'll link your profile in the show notes, so if someone you know, you can search for Michelle or you can just click on the link in the show notes. Okay, well, thank you, Michelle. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. Um, this has been another great episode of Creative Leadership with Heart. We will see you next time. Thank you again.

Speaker A: Thank you.

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