From Guinness to Netflix: Gavin Quirk’s Wild Career Pivot Story

Speaker A: But what I would say is, like, what has been consistent across all of my roles as a leader and as an ic, but it's that ability to be able to flex. You know, I'm always asked this questions. I'm sure you are as well. You know, what's your leadership style? And, uh, I hate being asked it because I don't think I have a style other than I'm very good at flexing to the situation. And what I mean by that is I can flex the situation of the role, but also when I've got a team around me, I need to be able to flex for that individual's needs. You know, sometimes an individual needs an arm around them. Say, come on. Sometimes an individual needs a firecracker. Sometimes an individual needs to be left alone. So I think that ability to flex, as I say, both as a leader and in the role, is what served me well and has allowed me to do different things.

Speaker B: And you're listening to Creative Leadership with Heart, a podcast that inspires people to take action and be the leader they were born to be. I'm Coach Rico, and I'm known for coaching and training executives, leaders, leaders, founders, and high performers at Fortune 100 businesses, startups, and more. I'm here to answer your questions about leadership and personal development, while also asking you questions that can unlock your untapped potential. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Creative Leadership with Heart. Today, a good friend of mine, Mr. Gavin Quirk, head of innovation operations at Netflix and formerly of Disney and Diageo. Gavin, how you doing today?

Speaker A: I'm good, Rico. Yeah, good to see you. It's been a while, but. Yeah, nice to see you.

Speaker B: It has been a while. And I know you've been traveling. We talked a couple weeks ago, and you had a ton of travel, so I'm glad you could make the time. And thanks again for. For chatting with me.

Speaker A: No problem.

Speaker B: So we're gonna jump right in. So tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey. Uh, in. It was a pivot journey. You had a lot of different, uh, things that you got into. But first, let's talk about how you ended up in creative operations and a leader in that space.

Speaker A: Yes. Sort of working backwards. I've been at Netflix for six and a half years in a creative operations role. So I lead an innovation group at the moment. We're sort of the bridge between, like, a concept and an idea and then a productized experience on the service. And, yes, my journey into Netflix. I've been doing various things I was in quality control, I was in artwork, localization and production. I was in issue discovery, vendor management. So I've done a bunch of stuff in the NICO ecosystem and. Sorry, in the Netflix ecosystem. You can move around. Prior to that I was 12 years at uh, Disney in the studio system 8 in LA. And then prior to that I was working in London. And then before that I started my journey in a, uh, traditional marketing role at Diageo where I was uh, leading brand management for Guinness and Jose Cuervo and did a sales role as well. So I've done a real broad brush. So it's not really if I could look back at, start my career knowing my journey, I could never, never have mapped this, uh, out. It's just a case of taking opportunities and getting there. And then as I say m, I'm in this role now, which is a fantastic sort of combination of what I enjoy. It's that blend of creative end of operation and process and putting it both together in a fantastic company and working on fantastic products. So yeah, it's been a journey, as you say, with a lot of pivots and a lot of sort of ups and downs, lefts and rights. And that's part of the journey, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. So, so let's get, before we get into some of those questions, I have a lot of questions about the pivots. But let's go back to the very beginning. So what was the. And the reason why I want to go back to the beginning because a lot of people who listen to this, maybe they feel like they're in the, taking the wrong path, maybe they regret the path they took or they're, you know, should they be on their current path? So, uh, career paths are rarely linear. So I want to go back to even before college, maybe what was the dream for young Gavin?

Speaker A: So young Gavin, there was a realistic dream and there was a type dream. So I always wanted to be a professional footballer. And for your listeners who might be across the globe, I mean football where I come from, where we use our feet, so soccer in the, in the US But I was pretty good football player as a youngster. So I want to be a pro player. But like the dreams of so many that never really, really sort of materialize. But professionally I was always really good at drawing. So I always wanted to be an architect. That was something I thought I wanted to be. I thought, you know, it's something I really enjoyed. And then, you know, I suppose, typical teenager, when I looked at the degree, which was seven years, I was like no, maybe, maybe that's not for me. So I ended up just going into sort of like business school and doing a ah, business degree from there and then from that. Kind of fell in love with marketing and that sort of creative side of it and also like as most students are doing. I was working in bars and nightclubs at the time and as a result I got to learn a lot about the alcohol industry and how it worked. Went over to Australia to set up a nightclub over there in the summer of 99 I believe it was so the real passion for that. So when I came out of university I wanted to try and find something that combined marketing and creative and the alcohol industry. So that's how I ended up going onto the graduate program at Diageo, who are the world's biggest drinks company. So. And I don't know if you've ever sort of familiar, but the Guinness advertising at the time was like world class. Still is recognized this day some of the best adverts ever. And that was really my passion. So I was really lucky because my first job at a college was blending those two things. My passion for marketing and creative and the alcohol industry. And they came together. So yeah, it was an ideal sort of start to my career.

Speaker B: That's amazing. I didn't know that about you, um, when I met. You came from Disney when we, when we met. And that sounds like a dream almost coming out of college. I, uh, don't know how your experience was but to be in the alcohol industry and then also doing like creative work like that sounded like the career I wanted out of college. But I didn't, you know, my, my journey wasn't like that.

Speaker A: Yeah. And to be fair I was actually like laser focused because when I came out of college, you know, they have them in the uk, I'm sure they have them. They have these graduate development programs for these big large multinationals. They'll bring people straight out of college and for like a two year they'll give them like sort of various roles. And I was determined. I wanted to work for Diageo and I was knocking back other roles and other programs because I was so laser focused on working for Diageo to the point where my parents were a little bit, look, you got to get out of the house, you got to get a job now. But I wanted this company and I focused on it and I was lucky enough to get it and it was the dream and you know, a fantastic company. And I learned so much. I think my naivety a little bit was one thinking Marketing was just advertising, which of course is not. But then two, thinking Diageo was just Guinness, and it wasn't at all these other brands across the world. So that was a real eye opener in terms of, you know, the world and everything out, uh, there is actually bigger than you think in your own sort of narrow vision. And once you get out there and you experience the world, all these things open up and it's. Yeah, it's a real eye opener.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's a good thread to pull because, you know, sometimes you don't realize how big a part of something you are or how part of something big you are until you step away from it. Right. So can you talk about a little bit like that? Like, what was it like working? Because those are some of the premium brands in the alcohol industry. It's almost like Coca Cola for liquor. So what was it like being in there as a fresh, direct grad in their program and kind of navigating that?

Speaker A: I think the biggest thing that stood out to me was the sort of the sense of like this custodian nature of the brands that, you know, you're looking after this brand for a period of time. But these brands have been around for, I mean, Guinness was brought out in 1759, I believe. These brands are around for hundreds of years. They mean a lot to people. And yes, it's alcohol and there's obviously the, the element of, you know, you have to respect it. There's like, drink aware, Be Safe, etc. But these brands are, can be big parts of people's lives. So for me, it was that notion of, you know, you're just part of this journey that this brand has been on. And what you do in this sort of two to three years you're on this brand can affect it for five, 10 years, and you can do a lot of damage as a brand manager, but you can also do a lot of good. So for me, it was really respecting the brand. But then also I spent a lot of time actually going out into markets and like, seeing how people consume the brand. Because, you know, Guinness in Ireland is very different to Guinness in Africa, which is different to America, and how the company would tailor the messaging and the insights to suit the consumer. It was a phenomenal infrastructure. They had Diageo, I mean, a wonderful company, but yeah, I would say just that notion of we are custodians of this brand for this period of time, knowing their consumers, knowing how they consume the product, and then tailoring the messaging accordingly. It was a fascinating few Years I spent there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So talking about a little bit of, um. Now you went into creative operations. Maybe you can talk about a little bit. Not specifics, but the things you did at Disney. And I'd like to hear, once we go through that, like, how you tie it all together, like, what is the common theme and what has been your mission along the path? Because you went from, um, yeah, from marketing and brand to creative operations and leading up innovation now.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It was a strange journey because. So basically when I left Diageo, Diageo had restructured and there was an option of either sort of doing a role I didn't want to do or leaving the ajo. I made the decision to leave the AJO at the time and then I went into a traditional marketing role at Disney. So, I mean, I literally went from marketing Guinness to marketing Hannah Montana DVDs like Within the space of a week. So it was quite a seismic change. But again, you know, a very big brand, a very sort of powerful brand brand that creates a lot of emotion. So for me, it was a, uh, natural transition to going from, like, these big brands at the agent, these big brands at Disney. And I spent a lot of time in traditional marketing for, for movies and DVDs releases, did that in London. Then when I came over to la, I was doing something similar. And then I said when I got to Netflix, it was a real pivot because it was more, much more operational than what I was doing. But in terms of my mission, I mean, I suppose my personal mission is always, I mean, it's probably not air shafting, but always to be sort of doing the best I can be doing and growing and challenging myself and doing something different. So Diageo to Disney, two very, very different companies with very different products, that was a bit of a, uh, change. Then moving to LA after four years at Disney was another seismic change with a much broader role. It was still in marketing, but then I was working with all the studios over in America. I was working with all the different markets. That was another thing. So every two years I've evolved and I've challenged myself to do something different. And ultimately, when I came to Netflix, that was another big change. I mean, at the time, Disney were in a point of transition. They were buying Fox, they were creating Disney plus Netflix were obviously gangbusters in the streaming industry. So for me, it was a big change. Culturally, it was a massive change. But for me, that personal mission of making sure I'm growing, making sure I'm evolving, making sure I'm Challenging myself in that next step. That's the way I kind of approached all these pivots, as you say, to sort of take the path I've taken in my career.

Speaker B: So you've. Thank you for sharing that. And you've worked with leaders, ICs, you've managed people across the globe. What are some of the challenges and what are the things that, the differences that you had to adjust to with working with. To your point, 300-year-old European brands to like 100-year-old entertainment brands to a 25 year old tech brand.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the cultures between these three companies are very, very, very different, as you would imagine, because to your point, it's very like old established brands. It's in this entertainment sector, then it's a tech business. So it's very, very different. And the pivots I've had to make as a leader within that space have been quite drastic. I think when I was probably a stereotypical leader, which was, I'm leading from the front. You know, if I'm not here, this can't be done. You know, I'm the one leading the charge, like all follow me sort of thing. Then when I got to Netflix, it was a, uh, kind of sort of pivot in a way because I was like, right, I'm surrounded with like, incredibly smart people that have come into this business. It's a new startup there. It's really, really exciting. And I realized that my role was not necessarily follow me, because I realized a lot of people around me knew more than me in this space. So it was more about standing back and saying, okay, what do you all need? Let's create this vision together. Let's build this team and then move it to the next direction. But what I would say is, like, what has been consistent across all of my roles as a leader and as an ic, but it's that ability to be able to flex. You know, I'm always asked this questions. I'm sure you are as well, Rico. You know, what's your leadership style? And, uh, I hate being asked it because I don't think I have a style other than I'm very good at flexing to the situation. Uh, and what I mean by that is I can flex the situation of the role, but also when I've got a team around me, I need to be able to flex for that individual's needs. You know, sometimes an individual needs an arm around them. Say, come on. Sometimes an individual needs a firecracker. Sometimes an individual needs to be left alone. So I think that ability to flex, as I say, both as a leader and in the role is what served me well and has allowed me to do different things in these three massive companies.

Speaker B: I 100% agree, and I don't necessarily believe in leadership styles either and like labeling because I think most people bring a blend. And to your point, it's whatever is needed at the time. So that being said, that's kind of a, uh, glimpse into the way you lead. What are the things that you've seen in successful executives that you either, um, aspire to be or have flourished under?

Speaker A: I would say people who show up as their natural self, you know, they're very, very authentic. They're very, very transparent. I remember when I was in Disney in London, an executive at the time stood up and he gave us advice. He said, look, I advise you all to listen and speak based on how your body's composed. You've got two ears and one mouth. Do that, so listen more. And then he said, respect everybody, regardless of level. And then he said, take every one of your vacation days. And when he said that, I was like, right, well, this is kind of. Obviously, I understand this guy's values. Another executive, when she was asked, uh, how do you see yourself? The first thing she says, I'm a wife, I'm a mother. And then I lead this Disney. Org. So it's like those leaders that show that human component. They're not robotic, they're not machines. They connect with you on a human level. They understand what your goals and your needs are, but they're also very focused on what the business needs are. I tend to react better to leaders when I know their authentic self. And I can have that human connection rather than that disconnect. Where I have had leaders was a real disconnect. And that's where I struggle a bit more. I'd rather have that human connection because at the end of the day, you know, we're all. We're all human beings doing these jobs, and there's no. There's no need not to sort of bring your human self to work, right?

Speaker B: And there's this level of connection that you want to have, because if you're disconnected, how hard are you going to work for that someone? You don't. You don't feel like you're in it together. And I've experienced the same thing. When you feel like you're in it together, you feel like you have a leader that you can trust and that'll support you when times get tough. And also do the hard Things that they need to do like, like you said, like light a fire under my ass if I needed it.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, and you back it, you back each other up, right? If you, if you know what your leaders want to achieve, you're more likely to go to bat for them if you have that connection and you know where they're coming from, from a human level. Whereas if you have that disconnection, it's very difficult to either get on board with their vision or even then to see what's concerning you. So it's a two way street. I mean we spend a lot of time in work and to not have a human connection at work would be, would be awful. So yeah, so I really kind of make sure that I show up that way as a leader and that's what I want to get from my leaders as well.

Speaker B: So I want to, uh. There was a second part of that question and want to get into. Because we talked about it a little bit when we chatted a few weeks ago, but the international and global part. So you talked about a little bit about leadership dynamics. How about transitioning from a team? I'm guessing Diageo was mostly Europe based? Um, yes, guessing. And then Disney and Netflix obviously are global, globally distributed. So what have you learned as a leader? Having to navigate not just us, because I think some people, they have this misconception and we both, both experienced it, especially in new leaders, they, they lean towards where whatever their locale is. So if you're in the U.S. you leave like you're in the U.S. if you're like in Australia, you lead like you would be in Australia or in even Asia, like Asia maybe. Asia and US are the most like polarizing, uh, cultures. Right. In terms of work cultures and just general pop culture. So what have you learned and what advice would you have for people leading global distributed teams or having to even partner with clients or others that are like distributed globally?

Speaker A: Yeah, for me it's just always about asking questions. It's understanding people where they're coming from. You know, I mean, obviously I'm a leader in the US and obviously there's a melting pot of creeds, racist sexualities in the US and it's understanding that I was talking about earlier on, everybody is having a human experience. So it's understanding people, what their human experience is. What does it mean for you working as part of this company, as I say, connecting them on a human level. Because you spent a lot of time at Netflix. We have a very defined culture and a very well publicized culture. Um, and that doesn't necessarily translate the same way in different regions. So if I show up as a leader in America, assuming that everyone's read this culture memo or deck and they've interpreted the same way as I have, that's never going to work. So I tend to ask questions, oh, what does this mean to you? How do you like to work? How do you like to show up? How do you like to communicate? So it's really just about getting to know the person and their individual, ah, preferences I suppose, because, you know, I've been fortunate enough that I have worked with teams all over the world and you know, you see the minute you walk in, uh, a door of an office how different it can be. People greet you, all of that. And you have to be able to, as I say, the combination of being able to flex your own personal style and then understanding the components of who you're working with and bringing those together, that's what makes really good leaders. That they can see the nuances, they can see the differences. But you only really get that from experience it and asking questions.

Speaker B: Right. So, uh, with that, with experiences, uh, we talked about a little bit earlier, nobody's career path is linear, right? And also I don't know anyone whose career path was like picking roses and, or daisies or whatever the saying is, what were some of the challenges and struggles that you faced along the way, along your journey?

Speaker A: So I would say even going back to, I looked at it earlier on when I was at Diageo. So I've been with Diageo for four years and at the end of my four years they restructured the business and I wasn't able to stay in marketing. The only role that was available to me was to go back to a, uh, basic field sales role which would have been going into the pubs and clubs of London and selling in our uh, uh, products which could have been fun for somebody, but it wasn't what I wanted to do. So I made the really hard decision of leaving my dream job, my dream category, everything about it. But because I knew the path that my career was about to go down was not what I wanted to do. So if I wanted to stay true to myself and do what I want to do, I had to go somewhere else. So that's why I ended up going, going to Disney. So that was the first thing. And I was four years into my career. I was young, I was like, my God, this, my dream is over. But I go to Disney and I was, oh, actually, there's actually a world outside of Diageo and Disney is this wonderful place, fantastic brand. So that would have been sort of the first challenge I had. Then throughout, just, you have all these, like, you will always have setbacks. You know, you don't get the promotion you wanted, or you don't get the job you wanted, or companies restructure and things change, leaders move. So it's happened to me many, many times. It's happening still. It's all. It's all ongoing. But I think what I've learned is if you're true to yourself and you know the path that you want to follow, these little bumps along the way, if you treat them purely as a learning and not. They've not beaten you, they've not knocked you out, it's a learning. You take every lesson from that and apply it to the next session or the next potential bump. That's all you can do. If you let it sort of destroy you. And then you just say, well, some, you know, turning over the table. I'm done with work. That's me all over. That never works. But you have to take the learnings. Yeah. And it'll always happen. And as I say, it continues to happen to this day, but I try to take the learnings from it.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great advice and a great perspective. And I. People always ask me, what's your biggest regret? Or, you know, people ask people that, like, what do you regret most? I try not to have those. And I'd like to say I don't have regrets. There's things I wish I would maybe do over, but I don't know if I would regret it. The thing I say is, I don't have regrets. I have lessons because every time that either I misstepped or something happened, it's only a regret, uh, if you didn't take anything away from it. And even in the most toxic cultures or the worst decisions, you're now setting your barometer for what not to do. And now you have an example of what not to do.

Speaker A: Exactly. And some of the lessons, I mean, I've made mistakes where I maybe stayed in a role for longer than I should. Maybe I was getting stagnant and I should have actually moved on. So if I look back and I say, could I be. Could I be further ahead in my career, possibly if I'd taken more chances or, uh, I'd sort of been a bit braver. But then when I take a step back and say, well, actually, I look at my career and I look where I am and I'm happy with it. And I've learned that to now know that I won't stay in a job too long. I can now see the signs that will tell me now's the time to move. So you take all those lessons to where you are today. But to your point, if you don't, if you don't learn from it, then of course that's, uh, you've missed the opportunity. If you learn from it and you know the action you can now take, you're in a much better position than you were before.

Speaker B: That's very well said. I think people should go back and listen to that because you're in this probably happened to you. Happened to me. Your values evolve over time, Right. So for you, right. Maybe people would have glossed over this. Um, but you're at Diageo for four years right out of college, and then you move to la. Like, that's not an insignificant thing, especially if you have mortgages.

Speaker A: Well, I had four years in London with Disney before I moved to la.

Speaker B: Oh, you did? Okay, good.

Speaker A: But there was a gap. But, but your point is still valid that I'd been in London, I grew up in the uk, you know, the furthest I'd moved away from home, well, I went to Australia for a few months. But this was like me making that trip to la. And you're right, your values change and the chances that you take. Like, and, but even then when I moved to la, it was not, uh, a, an insignificant move. I was still young and I didn't know anybody, not a soul in la. So yeah, sorry to cut you off, but you're right, your values do change and you do have to take these big steps.

Speaker B: Yeah. And people will ask me, you know, I left, it's three years now, um, when I left and they're like, how could you do that? I'm like, well, it just didn't line with my values anymore. I wanted to spend more time with my family and do those things. Not that it wasn't a place that could do that. I just, it was time. Um, and I think when I was younger in my career, I would be afraid and I would be like, oh, am I really going to walk away from this? But actually when you're younger, that's to your point, that's when you can take more risk because you don't have all the obligations that you have as like a 40 something with family, mortgage, insurance, like all these things. So when you're 20, if you're open to take risk, if you're, if you're risk tolerant, that's the time to do it. Um, because it's easier to put the pieces back together in your 20s than they are in your 40s.

Speaker A: And I'll be honest, you know that probably one of the biggest decisions I had to make was when I left Disney to come to Netflix. I've actually got, uh, I've got a little article in my LinkedIn that talks about this, but making the leap, because it was a huge decision for me, because I'd spent 12 years at Disney, I knew Disney inside out. I was very secure. I mean, there's no such thing as a job for life, but I probably would still be at Disney to this day. I love the brand, I love the people. I loved all of that. But for me at the time, as I say, I'd been at Disney for 12 years, I was like, do I want to stay here or do I want to push myself and try something else? And in the industry, as it was going streaming was blowing up. Disney had not yet launched Disney plus. They were in the process of buying Fox. It was a time of change. So for me, it was a very, very, very difficult decision for me to make. And I overthought it, ruminated on it for so long. But I was like, do you know what? Just going to make this leap and I'm going to try it and if it doesn't work out, so be it. But I know for me, this is the path I want to, I want to go on. But I don't want to downplay that these kind of decisions are never, never easy. They're fraught with so many different, uh, factors that you have to consider.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I'm sure Denny was putting the pressure also, because you can't make a decision. Exactly.

Speaker A: You can't say no to that, man.

Speaker B: Um, so. So with that being said, what, what were some of the things to consider? Right. Like, because I know people are probably listening in there, they might be at a crossroad in their career. So what are the. Some of the things that you consider without sharing too much, sharing what you feel comfortable with, but what are the things that you consider. You know, you said streaming was a big thing. Yeah, Netflix was. We were. I mean, the leader in streaming. Disney plus wasn't really a thing though. But in terms of family and career, what kinds of things were influencing that decision?

Speaker A: So for me, one, it was like the challenge, the challenge of what I was going to do next. I mean, I love my job at Disney, I love what I was doing. But, uh, I was like, well, I've been doing it for a while now. Where was I going to go? What would be the next challenge? And I couldn't really see where that was coming from in Disney. And Netflix obviously presented that brand new challenge of trying something new. So that was sort of the positive take. I suppose the counter to that was, um, I'm sure all your listeners know, like, Netflix has, rightly or wrongly, this reputation. It's, you know, very cutthroat. You know, you might not have a lot of job security if you go there. You might be fired within a couple of weeks. So for me, that was a big thing because obviously I had a huge reputation at Disney. I've been there for so long, going into a brand new space in a company that, you know, has a reputation for being very high performance and cutthroat. And was that the right thing to do? Is that played a lot, A lot in my mind. And then beyond that, it was really just the. Yeah, I mean there was, I mean, there's a bunch of factors. I mean, the culture at Netflix really appealed. Uh, you know, just everything about it was just, was different and a challenge. So when I just put it all together, I ultimately just asked myself the question, what's the worst that could happen? And while there's no guarantees in life, the team I worked in and for the individual work for, uh, at Disney was very much like, Gavin, if it doesn't work out, come back, we'll always have you back. That was a real comfort.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And then, yeah, it was literally, what's the worst that can happen? I go to Netflix, I hate it. I go back to Disney. Uh, at least I've tried. And when you take that stance of the absolute worst is never as bad as you actually think it's going to be. So if you take that chance and then you learn from it, if it doesn't work out, then it's a win, win.

Speaker B: 100% agree. And actually, it sounds simple, but even in coaching conversations, the two I asked that same question with a quick follow up is, what do you have to lose? And then the quick follow up is, what do you have to gain? So oftentimes, to your point, we worry about things that have never happened. So you can worry about like, oh, what if I don't like it? Disney doesn't take me back, like all these things, like, what are the odds of that happening? But then you flip side of that is, what do you have to gain? You're learning about a new, an expansive industry within entertainment. So, like Streaming was, was going to be new to you, a different culture, a tech, a tech backed entertainment company. Right. Because Disney had been around for, you know, 75 years or something already, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Only been. Or held had only been around for maybe 20. Right. So like just the, that dynamic itself is like, is there, is there an opportunity here? And to your point, people were like, just come back. That's always a great feeling too.

Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe like, I can maybe sort of be quite formulaic a little bit in my career, which I thought, you know, I'd worked in packaged goods essentially in the, in the alcohol industry. I'd now worked in entertainment. And now I was about to work, as you see, on a tech driven entertainment company. And those are like three massive sectors. So for me, I'm always thinking, well, what's going to sort of make me the most rounded person? And that gave me a huge amount of breadth in my experience. And you can apply them different ways and also culturally, very, very different. And I can honestly sit here and safely say, in the six and a half years that I've been at Netflix, I've grown so much in that time. I've learned so much about myself, so much about how I work with others. I've, uh, expanded myself as a leader. And I gained all that by taking that chance. Now that's not to say I wouldn't have grown and learned if I stayed at Disney, but this challenge is getting outside of my comfort zone. It's a forcing function. And that forcing function makes you grow exponentially.

Speaker B: It's one of those things where, don't tell. I'm not assuming this, but this is how I would think. I'm not assuming this is how you would think, but when you make some of these decisions, it's almost like I've been here for 12 years. I know what the next 12 years will look like. Do I want to sit? So it was almost like that with my decision with Netflix. Like, okay, I knew what these nine years look like. I have a pretty good idea of what the next nine would look like too.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And is that now with my values, where I am in life, all the context that I have, is that something that I want to continue doing? So when I put it into that perspective, um, and I love my time in Netflix and I, uh, 100 appreciate everything that I afforded me. I miss all the people like you and the folks that I, that I worked with. Um, but I knew what that the nine years was gonna be like. And now I, I knew what the next nine was Gonna be like, there's a lot of change. Like, change is the.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The saying we had at Netflix is the only, the only constant is change.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, would I be ready for another nine years of change? And that's good. And there's good and bad things. Change, meaning pushing the industry and evolving, which is one form of change. But also with that pushing the industry and evolving, the organizational structures need to evolve along with it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so those were some of the things. And then also continuing on the global scale.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: But, so when I asked myself that question, it helped me make the decision.

Speaker A: Exactly. Because all you have is the here and there. Right. And all you can do to base your decisions on, like, what's your experience being in the past, like, what have you seen? And then what can you possibly anticipate in the future? So if you can look back and see, look, I've been working in this place for 12 years. I know what it's like. I can guess what the next sort of fight, then that's in a good position to make that decision. So you make the decision at the moment with all the information you have. And as I say, I mean, it wasn't an easy decision at the time. There was times when I was in Netflix, I was like, my God, what have I done? Like, you know, this is kind of. I miss working on my Disney films. And this is like, this culture is intense, but you learn from it, you grow from it, and then you just keep on adding those layers of experience. Yeah.

Speaker B: I have, I have this quote that I tell people. If it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Yeah.

Speaker B: So that's the thing. If you, if you really want to, to your point, grow and change, there needs to be something that's going to make you uncomfortable and challenge you to, to stretch and to flex in the ways that maybe you haven't had to before.

Speaker A: 100 agree. Definitely.

Speaker B: Um, so now, so this is the experienced 15, uh, 20ish years. And we won't get, we won't give an exact number, so we don't have to give our age. So that football player, the Gavin who had dreams of playing football and then going to marketing and going into marketing, what advice would you have for that Gavin or anyone who's maybe in the earlier stages of their career thinking about if creative and, um, this kind of industries for them, and maybe even thinking about leadership roles, what, what advice would you have?

Speaker A: Take the chance. I mean, sometimes the chance is going to sound scary, but it's like when the minute you let that sort of self doubt come in, it's like, you know, that's where you're sort of, you're going to hold yourself back. So take the chances as, as they come up, be very aware that as you said very eloquently start. This is not a linear journey. There's no such thing as this perfect career journey. So be aware of the bumps along, along the road. But also just take the time to actually understand what you enjoy doing. Because sometimes what you think you want to do isn't actually what you enjoy doing. And from my personal experience of, you know, when I thought I wanted to work in marketing, I thought I'd be making adverts all day. I thought I'd be like cutting really cool, sexy adverts for alcohol. Got into it as like I realized advertising was a sliver of what marketing actually is. So have a focus on what you want to do. And I've been really lucky. I've worked in industries and sectors that excite me and I'm really passionate about. I mean I can't imagine I could be doing creative operations in uh, like for example, a car company. I'm not that interested in cars, right. But that's not something I probably want to do. So finding a sector that excites you makes coming into work so much easier every day if you're working on products that you want to be watching or consuming or using yourself. So, so, so yeah, that'd be it. I say like take the chances, understand it's not uh, a straight line and just understanding what you want to, what you want to do, where your passion

Speaker B: lies, that's a huge one. I think people underestimate. Right. So some people say I want to be a designer and they'll work to your point at maybe not a car because a car company might be good for a designer, but I don't know, some paper, uh, company. Sure, yeah, we're working for a paper company and a designer. Like will that get you excited? But if you are, maybe went into design ops for like a Netflix or something that you consume regularly, that's something to consider. And you know, and the nice thing about these companies is there's a lot of internal movement that can happen. I've had people in my nine years there, I've had people come to my team from other teams, go to other teams, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. True. Yeah, you get a broad range. And I think what I found as well that a lot of people that, uh, I mean I've been fortunate. I worked for three massive companies in my career. I've only worked for these three massive companies. But I see a lot of value in ah, working for smaller companies. Because you tend to do more, right, because you have to get your hands dirty whether you're in an agency or whether you're in a small startup, um, you tend to do everything. So some things, when you get later on your career you have that good grounding. So another bit of advice, I would be like, don't be worried if your first job isn't worth a Disney or a Netflix or the Agile, because you can actually learn a lot more, get your hands a lot dirtier in smaller companies and then once you get to those bigger companies, you actually have a bigger breadth of experience. So there's no, as I say, there's no, there's no perfect path. And if your goal is I want to be in Netflix in five, 10 years, you know, focus on that and you will get there and you just make it happen. But that's where it comes down to knowing what you actually want to do and knowing what excites you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can't plus like 1,000 to that. Um, but that's how my career started. I worked for Zappos, uh, and I was employee 40 so I didn't really know. I was in my 20s and I'm like, I don't know, I didn't even know what startup was essentially. Right. I didn't know the concept of startup. Um, but I was early on that it's like, do you want to, nobody here knows SEO. Do you want to learn? Sure, I'll figure it out. Like we need to figure out how to use videos. Does nobody else here knows how to do it. Do you want to figure it out? Sure. Right. And that's, and so I was starting to create ah, an industry of my own that didn't really exist at the time. And that's the benefit to your point of starting with something small. You know the odds of hitting on something like that, like me working at the Zappos, the odds of hitting a startup that's going to turn into a Fortune 500100 are relatively low. But to your point, you get to experience more things. So if you're a designer you get, you're probably your own researcher, you're doing your own ops, you're doing your own project management, like you're doing all of that stuff. Um, but that makes you more valuable too when you come to a Netflix because you already know how to analyze data you already know how to do a lot of the things that some folks at these bigger companies who are more specialists may not have in the bag. So that's great advice for anyone who, who says, oh, I want to work for a faang company out of college, sometimes that's not always the best path.

Speaker A: Exactly. And I think I'm going to butcher the quote, but I think there's a quote from Richard Branson where he says, you know, if someone gives you an opportunity and you don't know how to do it, say yes and figure it out later. Right? Because the more you take on, the more you say yes to, you just you learn into it, and then that opens up doors that you wouldn't even dream. Have dreamt they were possible. But as I say, saying yes and building your knowledge to your point and your experiences app, which, like, oh, sure, I don't know how to do that, but I'll figure it out. And that gave you a really, really solid grounding to where your career eventually took you.

Speaker B: Right on. Uh, this is what some people will take, take on as their awards moment. And you can share or you don't have to share, but who are some of the mentors or coaches or people along the way that kind of helped you through some of the challenges and helped you along your journey? And how did it help?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mentioned some of the people that was at Disney that some of their quotes, those really authentic leaders, they were kind of. They weren't sort of official mentors in a way, but I learned a lot from them in terms of how they, how they showed up. And then when I was leaving Disney to come to Netflix, I mentioned that this personnel in my SDP at the time who was great with me, you know, it's kind of saying, as I said, you know, he said, you can come back anytime. But he was also very direct because he says, gavin, I'd love you to stay. And I was very open. I said, look, this is, this is what Netflix are going to offer me in terms of the package, the role. And he's like, take it. You know, just absolutely take that that's right for you in your career. So I just had a huge amount of respect for that, uh, individual in the time because he could have stepped in my way, could have sort of said, no, we really want you to stay. Could have given me empty promises. But he didn't. He created an environment for me which was very honest. He said, we'd love to have you back if you ever want to come back. But this is good for you in your career. And it was really, really great for me. So, yeah, I've always tried to sort of like, identify individuals who I respect professionally, who show up very well personally and, um, are just open to having conversations with me and being very honest and transparent. I just, I trust is one of my key values. And if I can find something that gives me that, which I've been lucky enough to do, then I tend to sort of like, uh, sort of remain close with them as much as I can.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, uh, and it sounds like they also shaped or you took bits and pieces from their styles and added it to your own.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, it was refreshing because what. What I saw was a group of collection, a group of individuals and executives who had been incredibly successful but hadn't compromised their values in any way. You know, they were still regarded as good people, show up well, care about their teams, and they were leading these massive organizations. So you don't have to be this horrible tyrant to be successful. You can be a good human being. And that's what I try to be as well.

Speaker B: Right. I think where people fall down, it's not because I would hear people, you're too nice or you're too kind. And that's not where people fall down. I think where they fall down is where the expectations are not clear.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because you can still hold people accountable in a kind way. Right. You don't have to. Your point? You don't have to be a tyrant about it. But if you didn't set expectations right. Or properly up in the beginning, that's where most leaders fail. Because you can still be like, you know, we talked about this. These, this is the expectation. And you can still deliver that feedback in a kind way, but this is still the expectation.

Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, I think you set the expectations. You're very clear. You can still, as you say, hold people accountable. You can still be decisive. You can still make these difficult decisions that you have to make as a leader, but do it in a nice way. And that's what I respect, and that's why I try to sort of associate myself with these sorts of leaders. And I mean, throughout your career, you're going to get both types. You're going to get the tyrants that are just like telling you what to do in my way or the highway. And you're going to get the ones that are have that more human component. And again, go back to what we were talking about earlier. You've got to learn from both You've got to learn, you know, what you would like to do and also what you would not like to do as a leader, and that can help shape your. Your approach.

Speaker B: Right on. Uh, one last question. Um, because, you know, Netflix assigns a lot of books for reading, but what. What is one book that you would recommend for folks that are listening?

Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question, actually. I don't know if it's necessarily like a business book, but I recently read the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

Speaker B: That's a great one.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good. And it honestly, it kind of sort of changed my perspective on things a little bit. It's. It's a quite tough read. But I read it on holiday one year, and I was like, wow. I'd realized what I was doing so wrong. I was so fixated on the past and so anxious about the future that I was missing out on. On the now. So I try to do that as much as I can. It's a constant sort of challenge for me. But I try to appreciate the now, appreciate where I, um, am at the moment, learn from the past, but the past doesn't exist anymore. And know that the future isn't written yet and just try and be the best version I possibly can be today, and then that will hopefully, uh, work out for me in the future.

Speaker B: That is a fantastic recommendation. And to share for me, that's what helped me get over a lot of the fears that I had when I stopped getting a W2 paycheck and started having to build my own business. Um, and then, like, you know, just my upbringing, the scarcity mindset or. Or the relationship with money, um, the Power of Now really helped me because thinking about, you know, don't worry about the past. Don't worry about things that haven't happened yet. Are you okay right now? Will you be okay tomorrow?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if you can answer those questions confidently, then don't worry about it. Like, just keep.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: To your point, being the best self that you can be in the moment and be present. So if anyone has not read that, or I did the audiobook, it might be easier.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do the audiobook. Uh, I think the narrator has a nice accent, too. Makes it easy.

Speaker A: It does. Yeah. No, it's great. And it's also. I try to surround myself with people that have that sort of mindset as well. My fiance is great. She's very much like, you know, living in the now doesn't stress too much. And that's a real good balance between, for me. But yeah, that, that book was a real sort of game changer for me when I read it. So I highly recommend it.

Speaker B: Cool. And best way for folks to get in touch with you if they want to. I mean, we'll have your LinkedIn, I think, in.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out, feel free to connect. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I like to sort of meet with people and chat. So, yeah, and I'm very open to having conversations. So, yeah, I think you're going to link my. My LinkedIn. So feel free people to connect and message with me if you wish. Cool.

Speaker B: Well, I appreciate you taking the time, Gavin. Thanks again. Glad you made all your travels. Made it back home safely.

Speaker A: Nice one. Thanks so much, Rico. I really enjoyed this.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. All right, everyone, that's, uh, another episode of Creative Leadership with Heart. We will catch you in the next one. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this episode of Creative Leadership with Heart. If you enjoyed the show, please like and subscribe. If you're ready to make huge, lasting change in your life, then what are you waiting for? What will your life look like if you took action today? What would it look like if you didn't? If you're serious and you're ready, book your free strategy session today and let's make your future a, uh, reality.