Ep.31 Aaron Gracey | The Leadership Conversation Every Business Needs

Speaker A: Foreign. You're listening to the Be youe Start now podcast with San Artina. This is your host, Sarah Ashley Neal. Our guest is a doctor of philosophy and specializes in organizational resilience. With a background spanning 20 years in the military, he understands about leadership, building capability and crisis management. He now remains on the reserves to train others in times of national security. Experience working as head of, um, emergency management for a sizable organization. He also runs his own consultancy, Squared Apples, where he develops professional training programs to help companies build a resilience culture. He's a visiting university lecturer teaching students on incident and risk management and managing disruptive change. Known as a thought leader on resilience. Let me introduce you, Aaron Gracie. Welcome back to the show. The Be youe Start now podcast has returned. How are you?

Speaker B: I'm very well, sir, very well. Thank you for inviting me back. I obviously did something right the first time around. They get a return seat on, on the desk.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, we've had some chats since then, haven't we? And it's such a, uh, vast topic. Um, I know we've got time to come on every week, but I'm certainly from now and again, you know, depending on feedback and what's new in your world, there's so much we can sort of talk about. And the way I'm doing things are slightly different this time. Yes, we're doing some longer sessions. However, we're also zooming to some specific areas of wellness, specific areas of leadership and resilience. And um, today it's really more about the importance of leadership in business. And I know that's a subject close to your heart and I was just wondering why that would be. Maybe you can just fill us in again on a little bit your background and how, how that came to be a big focus for you.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure, absolutely, Sarah. So, background, um, ex military. So you know, 20, 20 odd years in the, the armed forces, where obviously leadership is a really a real powerful tool, you know, and being able to build that capability. Um, and for the armed forces, leadership equals empowerment equals action. Um, having then subsequently moved into, into business, there's a very distinct difference. Um, where there's a focus on management but not really leadership. I think a lot of industry mistakes management for leadership and assumes that just because you're quite high on the chin, you are a leader. And actually sometimes it's the opposite. You may find that the leaders are the ones that are sitting woven throughout the organization at all levels and are seeking to drive change and improvement. And it's managers who are stuck in their ways that are preventing that improvement to move forward. So this is why it's important to me. Wow, that's interesting because it links into the resilience of an organization. If I'm losing my low middle level leadership capability because I'm not doing it properly or they're not empowered to lead, then they're going to leave. And that's impacting the talent I've got in the business. And my business becomes staid, becomes stuck, it becomes old fashioned and I lose my market competent, my market competitiveness.

Speaker A: Wow. So you just answered all my questions. So we'll leave it there now, uh, shall we? I remember saying that to someone on my very first podcast, um, because we did about 31 and you were number 13, you've come back as 31. So it is a bit of a segue back into this. So, um, we're going to touch on a lot of what you've just said and I will do my best to ask you some, some questions that uh, you feel uh, you'll be able to tap into all that knowledge and, and share with our audience today. One thing I want to do as a tiny disclaimer and you um, say otherwise, but I appreciate, and you say this on much of your material like LinkedIn, et cetera, that obviously what we talk about because you work for a company and you've also got your own business. So I want to be respectful of that. Um, yes, we can edit things, but we would want to spend half, half the day doing that. So I appreciate that, you know, these thoughts are your own and that's really what you, you say, would that be fair?

Speaker B: That'd be fair, yes. Whatever I say is based on my, you know, my many years of experience, um, both for the administrative defense, um, in industry, as you highlighted, you're running squared apples, um, which is supporting small organizations and building capability in that space as well. And also the stuff I now see when I'm teaching at university, um, and again I run a master's program. So with that in mind, I see students coming through from industry and they come with certain expectations or blockers and it's trying to strip them away and say, and showing that just because their organization does it one way, it doesn't mean it's the only way. And sometimes going back to challenge that, uh, may be more beneficial for their own business.

Speaker A: M. I might come on to that next year. Okay, so I know you have introduced and said why, you know, pretty much why it's so important because it seems there's a huge passion there. Um, and I think listening to quite a few people out there, they talk about that difference, which we'll talk about, um, between management and leadership. How would you then define leadership in a nutshell? And then we can talk around that.

Speaker B: I think leadership is easy, defined by. You empower people to do things they don't want to do. And the reason for that is if you are the individual in the room that, uh, is seen as the leader, people are going to trust you. They're going to trust you because they've given that emphasis from themselves to you and say, actually, we see what you're doing, we understand why you're doing it, we understand you have our interest at, uh, the heart of what you're doing, and therefore we trust you. And that will create a bond between the leader and the follower. Now, it's really interesting because people all want to be leaders. Very little research or knowledge is given towards what it means to be a follower. But if I haven't got followers, can't be a leader because no one's going to be doing the stuff for me. And that's a real important bit, is when you see a leader, you should be looking for who is following him or her and why are they following them. And that means you'll understand just how powerful that leader is or whether in fact he or she is a manager in disguise.

Speaker A: Now, that's interesting because we all start somewhere, don't we? Um, so at what point I knew we wouldn't stick to any questions. At what point do we say we're a leader? So if somebody has, oh, how many followers are you talking about here? You're starting out, you have got expertise in that field, in that industry, or they've come into a company and they've worked in another company and been a leader. But in that company, the new company, they may not have that respect yet or that trust, but they've still come in to do a job. Um, just interested to know, would you have one follower or is it the case?

Speaker B: Really, it really should be asking that question. What allows me to determine I'm a follower. Sorry, I'm a leader. And I cannot determine if I'm a leader because it's not me that's giving me that gift. If I have followers who trust me, then I'm a leader because I'm leading. I am leading something or I'm leading someone and people are trusting me to lead that organization. I can stand in a country park or in the center of an auditorium and say, I am a leader. I am a leader. You will follow me. They choose not to follow me. I'm leading myself and that's it. So actually, I cannot say I am a leader unless I've got people who are willing to follow me and let me lead. And that's why that relationship between leader and follower is so important, because not only does it allow the leader, uh, to get stuff done, it also identifies within the group who is the individual who is leading that group. And I think a real good example of this is when we watched President Trump walk onto the stage and brief the US military. All those heads of sheds, uh, the 800 plus he walked on there, and in that room you had 800 plus leaders, senior leaders of the U.S. armed forces. And in front of them they had an individual who they did not respect. And he was saying, I am a leader. And everyone in that room was going, no, you're not. And so, and that's, uh, you know, if you think cult of self, I'm a leader, then automatically you're probably not because you're having to authenticate yourself to yourself.

Speaker A: Right. Okay. This, we could do the whole, the whole podcast on this. Goodness me. No, it got me thinking here because yes, there are, I mean, there are a lot of people out there who. Absolutely. Right. Who believe that they are a leader and they're leading. And I guess, uh, coming back to, you know, what, what defines that? So, so let's say now the followers say they've got a bunch of followers.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For them, what would, what would make a good leader for them?

Speaker B: So for those, for followers, they're going to look at someone who has got their interest at heart, um, is showing that dynamism to actually move an organization forward is empowering them to make decisions, is supportive of what they're doing, and also is mentoring and improving their position. So that's really what you're looking for. A leader. A leader is not about themselves. It's about others.

Speaker A: Right? Yes.

Speaker B: How do I lead this organization for the benefit of others? So you're real good leaders. Ah, those leaders who are seen as the best in the business are the ones that you very rarely see, but they are the ones that are driving an organization for. So if you walk into an organization and it's, it's roaring along, it's smooth, it's, it feels like everyone is one with the business. Um, and yet you don't see somebody barking orders or telling people what to do. They just get on with it. That is a sign of a very well led organization because everybody feels empowered to undertake their work and don't feel that they're going to be challenged because actually they all understand the journey they're on. And the job of the leader is to remain out of the way for as long as possible, allowing to get on with that and preparing the organization for risks and challenges that may be coming in the forefront. And when he or she does see those challenges, being able to advise the organization, advise the workforce, and m the managerial group, this is what is coming, this is what we're going to do about it, and this is how we're going to do it. And we're going to do it collectively as a group to maximize our chance of success. And if you look at a manager, a manager will be going, this is what I'm going to do, this is how we're going to do it, and this is what you are going to do. Very different approach.

Speaker A: So we have to have both leaders and managers. And we know that not all managers are good leaders, but, um, and nor do they want to be necessarily. And that's what I guess then defines the manager. A manager who maybe runs a team. They are in effect leading that team, would you say, still? But their role is predominantly manager. Can leader be a manager as well?

Speaker B: A leader can be a manager, absolutely. Um, because you're managing the team, you're managing stuff. Uh, the leadership bit is how are you changing or empowering or improving that stuff? So there's a slight nuance there. So if you think, let's look at change, you have a change manager or you have a change leader, the change manager will be the individual who is doing all the various things that need to be done to allow the change to happen. They'll be doing the project or program plan, the risk assessment, you know, the staff allocations and roles, um, and that sort of stuff. Your change leader, however, is looking at what is coming and how do I prepare the business to address that and what changes do I need to make in order to be there. So they're already thinking at a higher level and they're looking at beyond the here and now to what is coming and how do I get us in the position where we can be better, improve our competitiveness, seize more of the market, and I will leave the management of the current change in the hands of my manager.

Speaker A: So people do go into a company with a title of being a leader, if that's what you're looking for, but it would be a leader within a specific role, is that correct?

Speaker B: It's Interesting because, and this is where my I have concerns is an organization will go. I want to recruit a leader and ask, okay, so go and recruit a leader. That leader doesn't know your organization. That leader knows the organization they've come from. So unless they are being brought in. So yet there are some leadership qualities that are transferable. Empathy, empowerment, um, communication, collaboration that good leaders will have and can bring from one to another. But parachuting in a leader on day one and saying you're not in charge of the organization, you're not leading it, good luck is very dangerous because they don't understand the organizational culture they're coming into. They may not understand the framework. And you could end up having a leader that's bringing a different culture into the business and you end up finding a business that either doesn't work, it grates, or for the first six to 12 months, the leaders, the leaders culture challenging the corporate culture or the, the organization's culture and it grinds their hope.

Speaker A: And I remember if I just interject, we talked about that in your first podcast. Not um, saying I can remember every detail, but I would like to encourage people to listen to your full podcast that we did. It was episode number 30 if you're interested. And what we're bringing in is uh, just going diving a little bit deeper into leadership. Can leadership look different depending on the size of a business? Because you're currently without, you know, talking about that company. You've worked in huge organizations, however small, small to medium sized businesses can still have a thousand to ten thousand people. They um, don't all have to have ah, half a million

Speaker B: plus a global conglomerate. Uh, how you discharge. Leadership can be different in various organizations. Um, but your quality should still be the same. You know, you should like I said, the empathy to work with compassion, collaboration, communication. Uh, you know, if you're in a bigger organization, you're also going to want to be looking at ah, strategy. But even in a small organization you're going to be developing the strategy for your business to grow, be it 10 people, 20 people, 101,000. So you're still going to be that strategic thinking, you're still going to come in with that set of critical analysis, critical understanding. Um, now as a, as a leader of a large organization, the difference is you'll have teams doing a lot of that stuff for you.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Okay, so there's about. So then you think, okay, so I've got my team doing my risk analysis, my team doing emergency planning, my team doing security, and my team doing procurement so you're now, you're going to have to think I'm now more in a collaborative leadership way because I'm sitting with heads of each of those areas going, right, what are we doing? You're still going to go, here's the strategy for the business, this is direction we're going. Here's my rationale, here's the end state. This is where I want the business to be. What you're then asking of those managers sitting beneath you over each of those teams is how are you going to help me to get there? So you're still being collaborative? Yes, but just at a higher level.

Speaker A: So is there a danger of um, I mean, multitasking as it were, in a smaller company? Especially because maybe budgets, etc.

Speaker B: Yes, there is a risk that as a leader of a small organization you are going to be wearing multiple hats. Um, you think if you're a two or three person organization doing a lot of training, you're probably going to be sitting either with your client or being the accountant, working out where your money's coming in, where your money's going on. What resources do I buy? Do I develop this course or do I develop that course? You may be doing the marketing piece and that's where you start. I knew some small business owners never really get beyond that.

Speaker A: And that's when again, we've sort of gone full circle when companies do bring in external consultants. But again, is it more about the company making sure that that person's introduced correctly across the workforce rather than sort of bigging up titles and names that can confuse.

Speaker B: It can, yes. And I think it's, you know, dropping in a. This is, this is X. He's coming to save the company. He is the ultimate leader dunk. You know, that's great, but he's come from that discipline, not our discipline. Um, and the question is, why didn't we promote one of our own? You know, why, why are we not investing our own talent? And so that can start to confuse the situation a bit. No, actually, sometimes actually show a bit of, um, conflict. Because what you're really saying here is that we've had to bring a new leader in from somewhere else because we don't trust the organization to create one which can then you create with the workforce. Well, actually, no, we don't like that. We want to see someone from our own group come up. And if the organization isn't developing the leaders it needs, the question is, is that organization got a fit for purpose framework?

Speaker A: Right. And it's not necessarily about Bringing somebody in because it's non biased. So I might have mentioned this before, forgive me if I have. It was years ago. I feel I've talked to you. Um, but when people do, for example something very different, they're doing surve and they're outsourcing, then we're commissioning things, um, externally that's slightly different because it's a piece of work normally, isn't it? But if someone comes in so that they don't have a biased approach, would, would that not work then as well?

Speaker B: No, no, that would work. So if you, you done a review and you've identified that actually within our organization our concern is our senior leadership group have been captured by the culture and therefore with that I need somebody come in new from the, from outside the organization to help us develop a new culture. Now a leader at whatever level, uh, in an organization, uh, can help change a culture. The senior leaders, the executive, if they're on, you know, the executive leadership, if they are the CEO or in a small company, the actual business owner who's also acting as the leader is in a very special position because they are the only ones who can actually break an organizational culture and reset it. So sometimes if you've got a feeling organization and they bring somebody else in, what they're actually bringing that individual in to do and put it right at the very top is we don't think this culture is working. Can you reset it?

Speaker A: Reset?

Speaker B: Yeah, because they are the only individual in the organization that steps outside of the culture and says, right, I'm looking at the culture of this business and it is not right. It is my job as the senior leader for this business to reset where we're going. And they can do that by saying here is our vision and end state, this is where we're going to go to. So that's the end we're going to. This is what we need to do and this is how we're going to do it. So the ends, ways and means, by doing that they can crack the culture, reset it and take the business potentially in a different direction, hopefully taking it uh, out of the doldrums or the issue they are experiencing.

Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. I'm thinking of strategy here. So would we say that really leadership is about having and working with strategies if we were to sum some that area?

Speaker B: Yes, I would do. And I see your leadership should be focused on that strategic thinking and it could be business strategic thinking, resources, it could be workforce strategic planning. You know where we're going to get this stuff from but absolutely, your, the leadership is, should be focused on, you know, setting the, the end state of where you want to get to and then putting together the strategy of where you're going to get from now to there. That is what a really good leader should be doing. And then how are they going to empower, how they're going to empower the organization to deliver that strategy?

Speaker A: Well, that makes an awful lot of sense. And I don't know where time goes. This is, uh, our bite size moving forward. So when a company doesn't have good leadership, who notices it? You're talking a big company. We're not just talking a few people around a table saying, you know, so and so is not pulling the weight. And operationally we're going to, uh, fall behind. People work in silos and they work on projects. They might not see how those projects are affecting other parts of the business because, you know, they've got their own deadlines and work to do these days. But clearly there's got to be some kind of cross management going on behind the scenes. So who actually looks out for these failures or failings?

Speaker B: So leadership in theory, that's what your executive board is for. Um, or your program boards or whatever, you know, they're the ones that look at, if you are leading something, why isn't it working? Um, a good, you know, let's look at a CEO. So a good executive board should be holding that individual to account, looking through what they're doing, discussing with that individual, where we're going at, and confirming that they are comfortable with direction and travel of the business and then they are supporting it. Now, if that's not happening, then your workforce are probably going to start picking up on it very quickly because they're going to be feeling the brunt of it because the issue is not going to sit up there. The issue is going to be at the front end where they are engaging with customers or engaging supply chains are crumbling, or resources aren't there, or the finance isn't there. And you then may start seeing people decide, you know what, I've been here long enough. I don't think this is going in the right direction. I don't think it's for me anymore. And they'll get up and walk. And the first sign that there's something really wrong with the business is when your talented people get up and walk because they are realizing that this business is failing and is not going to utilize my talent. So I'm going somewhere else. And once they go, you know, they have a ripple Effect because they're going to probably be your dynamic group in the business. Yes, they're the driving, they're your engine, you know, they ideally they're the ones you want to talent manage through the business into senior levels because of their engagement. The drive, the power, the understanding. They walk out the front door, you're turning your engine off as soon as they go. The next group to go will be those who were feeling empowered by them or trusted them. Because if you've got, if you've had talent walk out the door and they've got it, they've just got a nice job somewhere else. The first thing they're going to think, who do I trust to work with me? And they're going to probably look back into the old business and go, there's a group there I trusted, I know they're not happy and I need a team and I'm happy to recruit. And then your talent starts, what is left starts being pulled away as well. Then as a business, what you're left with is those individuals who are comfortable in their role and that could be at ah, lower level, could be mid level management. They're comfortable in the role, they've got a couple more years left at retirement or it's an easy role, they're drawing a decent salary, they don't want to change. And then your organization starts to crumble or at worst loses its competitive advantage. And if you're a public body, then your services start to crumble a bit, your performance drops, questions get asked and then it starts to snowball.

Speaker A: And although we're not talking specifically about wellness and well being per se today, this is what then ends up happening on that level where performance of the team can drop because there's absentee and presentee and all those, all those fancy words that are real. Um, I get asked to rattle them off and I still think, I can't remember those five. There's about five or six. And they're there, aren't they, at the bottom, bottom level.

Speaker B: They are there. And I see you think if you're, if you're, if you're in a team and you know, you joined this team four years ago and you were promised, yeah, we're going forward and we're going to be a team of empowerment and you know, the beacon light of change in this business to make it better and then the individual you've been working for, who you trust walks out the door, you go, ah, right, okay, that's not great. Uh, and then in some organizations what we'll do you know when you, and you see it too many times is that they'll take a very good performing manager or a very good performing team lead and stick them into a leadership role or a management role. Um, and the issue is they've been a technical lead and, um, the mistakes I see businesses make all the time is they look at a team leader says, you are delivering as a team and you're doing very well. So I'm going to take you away from that team now and I'm actually going to put you in a managerial role to look after four or five teams. But we're not going to educate you or, uh, uh, teach you about management. We're just going to assume you can transfer from there to there. What then happens where you've taken one of the core components out of the team, so the team starts, performance starts to drop. You've put an individual who's not prepared for staff management into a managerial role. So they've got to change the relationship between the team they've been working with and now the way they're managing the wider space and they're struggling. And so you end up getting a dip in performance. And the question I go to, hang on, that team's not performing. It must be the new manager's fault. Well, hang on, how can that be? Because that new manager has just come from the team which was performing very well. He's obviously, he or she's obviously not very good in that role. And actually it's not their fault. The business didn't do the preparation. They didn't understand how to manage their talent and now they've crippled that team. So of course this new manager is going to be looking around going, I'm not comfortable here anymore. And they're probably going to walk out the door as well. Um, so that's really. You got to be careful. I say too many times, they don't look at leadership talent, they just look at, okay, who is delivering. We're focused on performance rather than talent. And those are two very different things.

Speaker A: Yeah, and, and I think that's often what ends happening, where people think, oh, just jump into a manager role. Because I've even been doing the job for years and that comes with a different set of skills. And then from manager to the leadership roles, like you said, it's not just about having some leadership skills. Uh, we've, we've discussed how a leader's role can, can be very different, but it's not to confuse people on the call to say that you not developing uh, leadership skills within, within your team, uh, especially when you've got a team following you and very happy with you managing them so they'll enjoy your leadership, uh, stuff. But there's leadership styles, aren't there? The different leadership styles.

Speaker B: There are indeed differently styles. I'm just going to pick on something. You said that. So we go from a team into a management into leadership roles. So you move from mindset to leadership roles and that is how business looks at it. And that's why businesses wrong. Because actually you'll probably find there are leaders below the management levels, but they're not being allowed to lead. And so the assumption is you must be a leader because you sit high up the tree and you bring a nice big wage home. You're a leader and you did the same mistake as most businesses do. We assume you go from workforce management, leadership the other way around. In the military, what they focus on is workforce leadership, management and then command. And the idea being is I need my leaders to be at the front of the coal face and be empowered to make a decision. When the situation is very complex, it is a short time frame to make a decision and I need to trust my people at the front end. Yes, I can, you know, I can empower and bring people up in a senior leadership level, but I need my leaders at front element as well.

Speaker A: So it's getting that balance between again, talking about the beginning, about where we want to, you know, build people up from within the company and see them develop. However, on the especially you talk about military. I mean, I don't know much about the military, but um, you know, whether it's sports or whatever it is, common sense says to me that on, on the ground floor, um, shop floor is going to say the ground. They're, they're one of the buddies. You know, when you get like 20 buddies around the, that one person who's just brilliant at leading the team through, through the struggles and distress, whether it's, you know, like I said it was on the battlefield or wherever it is, there are people that we would rather, you know, if someone said who, you know, who would you like to be your leader? It might end up being one of your best friends out there. You know, this is obviously not talking about huge business organization here, but the principle, I'm saying is that there are definitely people that we. It's about. You talked about trust, empathy, leadership, people who are going to be there through thick and thin. But yeah, so is that, is it that vicious circle of wanting to, to, to bring people up within the organization, but also saying, you know, if you're going to do that, you've got to equip them with the right skills.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And, and talents.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Um, I think this is where human resource management is a critical component for business. And unfortunately we see human resource management stepping further and further back from a business and saying, oh, the manager's got to do that, the manager's got to do it. We haven't got enough resources, manager's got to do that. You are hanging the manager of that team or that department out to dry because they need the support. If they're going to manage and lead. Someone's got to do all the administration support behind them. Bogging them down in administration, um, is then stopping them doing their primary role, which is to manage and lead. Organizations see it as a way to save more money, reduce the size of an HR department, hand more stuff back, put it online. And the other real concern is more and more businesses are looking at technology to solve leadership issues.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: And technology is an enabler. And uh, if technology will allow me to do my job better, it won't let me do my job. So it cannot do my job. So yes, give me new equipment, give me new systems, allow me to do my job as best as I can. I'm far better than I've been doing it previously. But do not assume that because you've not got new technology, you don't need me.

Speaker A: And sorry Trinity, are we talking here in a human, uh, responsible role?

Speaker B: Yes,

Speaker A: obviously. Or technology is great, going to be perfect for other things but when it's human, um, people facing.

Speaker B: But it's really interesting because technology is great for everything. But there's got to be a human in the decision making cycle somewhere or else what you get is computer will go through. Is it a zero, is it one? I will make a binary decision, yes or no. It ah, doesn't matter how good your AI, your AI, anything else is, it's still gonna go down those lines of there's gonna be a finite decision. It's either yes or no. And it may not take into consideration all the complexities that was happening around it, the knowledge and I see the humanity of leadership. Um, and that's where there's difference. Leaders will do the right thing, managers will do the thing right. Managers will focus on processes, leaders focus on people.

Speaker A: And because they are ah, intertwined but they are very separate and sometimes they have to remain separate up to a point in certain roles in certain organizations. Uh, you were touching on hr. We won't Go into too much depth about that today because again that could be a podcast on its own. I'm enjoying saying that word again. Coming back. What about time? So okay, so we've touched on how you know we've got the back office, you know, where people were more involved in bringing people up through with their skill sets and their learning needs and skill gaps. Then you've got now a lot of end to end m processes um, being put on to people in a business where um, that makes many roles very, very difficult to do. Especially when um, you are good at one thing but you know it's even like small businesses. I'm small business myself and you know actually eventually you want someone to the marketing, someone to do this and someone to do that and just get on and do and do your job really that you're being asked to do. Where does time come into it? Because it's not just about budget and resources. To create a good leader takes time. You're not creating them for them, they are doing the work. But I mean you've been on tons of courses and you know you've taken time over the years to develop that. So what can be done in five minutes in an organization especially when um, you know there's a lot of attrition, there's restructures, lots of changes. It's like you've got to have someone calm at the top to be able to uh, help people with that.

Speaker B: It's interesting because. Okay, so the question I say is would you let an NEA unqualified engineer go and uh, review a building structure that's been damaged by storms? You probably wouldn't. And you sure as heck wouldn't allow an unqualified um, Dr. Go and undertake a medical examination in the operating room. Uh, and yet businesses are very well willing to take to put leaders in roles who aren't qualified or haven't demonstrated the capability um, we need, we need a bum on a seat. We're going to take that individual there because they've been very good at managing and they've been very good at performance. Therefore they must be a leader. Stick them in there. Good luck, well done. Um, and I will go back and I'll come, you know, contrast industry to business, industry to military. You know the military will spend about five years educating people on leadership capability alone before they get to a position of senior decision making. And that might be uh, a one. But they don't and this is where business get tries and feels miserably. They don't silo leadership so let's take a young army officer for example. They will go through the Royal Military Academy of Sandhurst for the first year of their life in the military and they'll be taught all sorts of skills. Your staff, management, planning and wrapped in that will be leadership, the act of leadership. What the military shows very quickly is leadership isn't just a single thing. You have to just rule out and go, today I'm going to be the leader and I'm pulling out my leadership stick. It's how you just do stuff. It's woven across things. It's you leadership is individual to you. Um, and your leadership style might differ but business tries to say, what I'm going to do is I'm going to teach you a five day leadership course. So you're going to come on here and when you walk out the door, you've got leadership qualities, goodbye, you can now go and sit in a leadership role. Uh, like I said, the military, one year Sandhurst, they then do, they may do two three month courses as they progress in the career. There's then another nine month course when they start getting the middle management about leadership and capabilities and operational planning and then they'll get another 12, 12 month residential program. How, how can them do leadership at a strategic level, you know, and, and then there's little small courses woven away throughout it. We don't see that investment and leadership in industry.

Speaker A: Why do you think that is? Sorry?

Speaker B: If you're lucky, you might be an individual who's had three or four or five day courses. Uh, when you get to a senior decision making ah, position, um, so you're bringing in 100,000 pound plus you're managing a team of about 200 and um, you've had 20 days of leadership training.

Speaker A: And it's scary because obviously, you know, these are great. I mean if I want to go and do something, a couple of days is great and because that's more about awareness and sort of taking a few, you know, tips and using one way. But sorry, branching off myself here, people comparing military to some organizations, they may well say, well that's a completely different setup, a different culture. However, there, there must be similar traits.

Speaker B: Oh there is, there is. And it's, well it comes down to how people understand the military. So people imagine the Monty Python sketch of Sergeant Majors walking up and down the square shouting at people. Um, or the 1980s, the 1990, uh, programs on TV. This is the British military. Look how that is shouting at people, screaming, drilling drill up and down the square for hours on End it's not that. And actually, today's military is very dynamic. Um, there's leadership woven throughout it. It's got to be because the geopolitical threats that we face, ah, hit us at all levels. Um, and that's why they invest so heavily into leadership and they look at the character of the individual. So before you even get through the doors of, um, a military organization, especially as a young officer, you'll go through an assessment board, um, and they don't care how clever you are. They are looking for your personal qualities of is there a leadership spark within you? Are you comfortable under pressure? Do you make decisions based on evidence and analysis? Can you communicate? Can you collaborate? Can you work with others? And are you comfortable in a space where sometimes people look to you and go, help? Now, if you don't have those qualities, then you're probably not getting through the door because those are the qualities we want from a leader.

Speaker A: And they're qualities you want to see consistent, don't you? Because you might have a day of saying, I feel like being a leader today and the next day, do you know what? Pull the duvet over. They can manage themselves. You can't. You certainly do it.

Speaker B: And you and a business, you're looking for exactly the same. If you're sitting on a major, you know, a major, uh, you know, government framework and stuff like that, and people are looking at you and the organization's in trouble, well, suddenly you have to be collaborate. You're going to have to do the analysis, you're going to make the decisions based on the intelligence you're getting coming through, um, and people are going to be looking at you going, boss, what do we need to do help at, ah, that stage, the moral courage to make a decision probably based on, you know, half the information you need. But as this, a decision needed to be made is where the leader has got to step up and go, I own this. This is my decision based on what I've got, and this is the direction I am taking this business. Um, it's risky because on your shoulders sits that decision. And that's why leadership is such a fundamental paradox, because you want to be able to step back and let the organization move and do itself. You want everyone to feel empowered to just keep the engine going. But at the same time, when it's in trouble, you've got to be the one that steps up and makes the decision and owns it and tells people the direction we're traveling in.

Speaker A: And that's through good and bad. Thick and thin isn't it? Um, not just because, you know you're going to get a ton of credit because you did something good that day, but. And that's why when, you know, when there's accidents out there and you see on the news, someone has to step, step up and, and you know, and be that voice, Be that voice.

Speaker B: And you can normally spot the good leaders of organizations versus the bad ones. Um, because a good leader of the organization will step up in front of the cameras and go, this is the decision I have made. This is the direction I've sent the business. This is why I've done it. And it sits on my shoulders. A poor leader will go, well, someone else decided that someone else did this. What's happened in this? And suddenly you go, ah, uh, you are offloading your accountability because you do not feel comfortable wearing the mantle of leadership. Therefore, why are you there?

Speaker A: Do you know, Aaron, I'm so aware that time is going on and I know you've got to shoot off soon. And um, as you're talking there's already so many questions around each bit. Oh, goodness me. Okay, so I haven't really talked too much about your business today and I do want, you know, to you to touch on that. And um, again, I do encourage people to look at the, the last one, the last podcast as well, but keeping up to date. Now, where are you at with your, your business in terms of, uh, sorry, we don't know the ins and outs of it. Don't worry. But in terms of, um, you know, is it, what direction is it taking or is it still. Still the same wonderful squared apples we knew 18 months ago?

Speaker B: So, yeah, so squared apples, where is it going? So at the moment it's working with, um, some universities, it's working with the mod, and again it's looking at. And so we deliver some training with um, risk management, you know, so use some universities. We also look at delivering change management courses.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And also working with a university, delivering in one of the university programs on continuity and resilience. So it's building that. It is, it's, it's empowering resilience through leadership. But to do that, you first of all got to be able to lead. Um, so there's that side and there's understandable what is resilience. So, yes, that's what square it is at the moment. It's still bumping along. I mean, last year we, uh, we decided that we'd sponsor, uh, some local football teams again, investing in the resilience at grassroots. So we don't want to throw it, but actually go and work with some young, young, uh, football teams.

Speaker A: Wonderful.

Speaker B: Uh, put some money towards it. It wasn't much. It's sponsoring, buying them a whole new kit set and everything else like that. But it allows a level of resilience because you're investing at low levels and then build that capability.

Speaker A: And um, I know again, we can't talk all about resilience today and we touched on that quite a lot last time, but it's coming back to even what you've just said there, you know, and build, and building resilience from where you are, it's not so where, where that football team is, you've, you've given them some kit, you've, you've improved, you've helped them along there. But from that they will build their own resilience. But you're allowing a healthier platform from which to grow.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But I'm also then allowing their coaches to use the, you know, the thousand pound plus that we, we gave them for other things. So now they've got, someone has provided them this resource that they can use. You know, they all have, you know, they all have a, like a similar uniform. Want a better phrase? So they feed part of something.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And that money that I have that given towards from square allows someone else to take the money out of their, to go and you know, buy, buy a minibus or to get the minibus service or to put money into revamping their clubhouse or new football training equipment. So again, it's just thinking how, what can we do to help build resilience? We aren't building the resilience, we're empowering others to do that.

Speaker A: Yes. And this is exactly. Oh, I'm so passionate about this and we mentioned it last time, I'm going to say the word again about falling down and getting back up and the football team haven't necessarily fallen down there, they've just had someone come in, see where they're at and support them so that they can, you know, build faster and work faster across their, across their teams. Work now because we just can talk about work. But guys, listeners, you know what I mean? Blossom train of thought. What else would you like to, to say is any key takeaways we've talked about today? We've, because we have, we have honed in on leadership.

Speaker B: But yeah, I think for me, you know, leadership is key. It's got to be, it's got to be supported at all levels. Um, it's got to be identified. That sits at all levels. And just don't assume that because you're in a senior role, you automatically get leadership coming with it. It's a personal quality and just like any other part of your body, you've got to exercise it and keep it working. But it's a gift that others give you when they become, um, your followers. Don't waste it.

Speaker A: Wonderful. I'll be using at the end of my clips today. So, um, where do you think it's heading in the next five to 10 years? You know, leadership, is it something that is becoming very fashionable and everyone's become a leader, or do you think is, you know, the people who feel that it's not for them, they're going to find out pretty quickly, I guess, but, but we want everyone to give something a go, but not if it's going to impact an organization's, uh, profit levels. Maybe.

Speaker B: I think leadership will come become a little bit harder. I mean the core, the core capabilities of leadership will always be there. And at the end of the day, it's human focused. Leadership is human focused. Uh, but with all the AI and everything else coming up forward hours, there's got to be more information. So you could find yourself being overloaded with information and data and this. And uh, for me, I don't really care how much information or data you're capturing. It's not about that, it's about how you analyze it and turn, uh, it into intelligence to make a decision. So, and you hear all these big business going, oh yeah, we can do big data, we can capture more bits of data now than ever before. That's great. So what, who's analyzing it, who's turning it into intelligence, and who's then taking that intelligence to make a business decision. So I think going forward, leadership will still be there. It'll be, you know, you may find technology enables better decisions to be made. You may, on the flip side, find that technology actually impacts the quality of decisions because there's too much information. So some weaker leaders end up getting, um, decision paralysis right there.

Speaker A: That makes sense. And that's why, you know, that's why we are going to still need good human leaders to manage all this. Well, I know I have to wrap up there because otherwise you're going to just switch me off before I've uploaded it. Um, I've got all your information from the show notes myself, but if someone's just listened to an audio and doesn't want to look at anything else, where can they find you?

Speaker B: Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. I'll be on there or just, you know, go and look on me online for your squared apples. I'll be there.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Thank you so much for, for that bite sized 10 minute uh, podcast today and uh, I'll see you again in 18 months. But no, we'll see what we can do with that. So thanks very much. Have a wonderful evening and a great weekend. Thanks everyone for listening today. Thank you.

Speaker B: Bye bye.

Speaker A: And remember, our show is about helping you to create healthier habits in the life you live now until new lifestyle practices change how you live your life. Well, that's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening and taking time out to join us. If you enjoyed the show, it would be really great if you could leave a review on whatever platform you've been listening to us on. And I look forward to welcoming you back to the show show next week. This has been your host, Sarah Ashley Neal.