Ep.30 Aaron Gracey | Building Resilience is A Life-long Journey, Not a Final Destination

Speaker A: Foreign. You're listening to the Be youe Start now podcast with San Artina. This is your host, Sarah Ashley Neal. Our guest is a doctor of philosophy and specializes in organizational resilience. With a background spanning 20 years in the military, he understands about leadership, building capability and crisis management. He now remains on the reserves to train others in times of national security. Experience working as head of emergency management for a sizable organisation. He also runs his own consultancy, Squared Apples, where he develops professional training programs to help companies build a resilient culture. He's a visiting university lecturer, teaching students on incident and risk management and managing disruptive change. Known as a thought leader on resilience. Let me introduce you to Aaron Gracie. So welcome to the Be youe Start now podcast. Aaron Gracie.

Speaker B: Hello. Thank you very much.

Speaker A: Okay, now, I always ask how to spell your name. Make sure we get it right for the listeners. So, uh, it's Aaron. AA, R, O, N. Yep, it's Aaron.

Speaker B: Double A. R, O, N, as my beautiful stepper calls me. Double A. Wrong.

Speaker A: Double A. What? Better not get into double A's on this podcast. Anyway, okay, uh, okay, so the reason that this gentleman is on the show today is because we're going to. Well, we're going to see where it goes, but we're definitely going to be talking about resilience, some kind of resilience and understand what the word actually means. Now, I wasn't going to start with that, um, but actually, in a nutshell, tell me what, tell us what resilience is and then we're going to go away from it for a bit and then come back to it. What is resilience? Why are you here?

Speaker B: What is resilience and why is it important? Well, resilience will mean many things to many different people. And that's the challenge itself. We hear resilience being bounced around as a term that people throw around willy nilly when they're speaking about the ability to adapt to an incident or, uh, to identify, prepare, respond, recover, review, learn. But actually it's more than that. It's building the capability of an individual, of a team, of an organization, of a nation to become more aware of their surroundings, understand the threats that they face and how they compare, um, towards them. And yes, some you may prepare for, some may get through your net, and then it's how you respond, recover and learn. You're, uh, really smart. Organizations or people will learn from the mistakes of others, those that aren't as clever or aren't as prepared or aren't as aware of the scenario of the situation will end up learning the hard way. And some unfortunately will fail. So that's where resilience is. And again it comes at personal, team, operational, organizational, national resilience level. So there's various levels. And uh, you can also look at societal resilience as well.

Speaker A: Okay, well, straight away we're going to have a million questions for you and what we haven't told the audiences yet. And I know you're very humble, we're not going to harp on about it too much, but you are a doctor in resilience. You're not a medical doctor, but you are a doctor of resilience. But when I, when I thought about that the other week we were talking about it, I thought, goodness me, you know, we can sum up resilience in a paragraph. And you've studied this for years and uh, you've written papers on it, etc. So can we just go backwards and just learn a little bit more about yourself?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. How far do you want to go?

Speaker A: Well, we haven't got time to go 21 years. So you're. Okay, let's start. You, you're in the arm, weren't you? So where, where do we go from there? Because you've got so many credentials I wouldn't even be able to pronounce.

Speaker B: So yeah, 20 years with the military, um, and again both as a soldier and as an officer, operational turs in Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Iraq, um, and, and then looking at building, you know, capability within the military. So from actually being at the front end, then going into the um, the training schools, ah, looking at phase one so junior soldiers. So to bring it up to date, if national service was to happen, you know, they'd be coming, coming to me for their initial training and awareness and skills. But then also I went into the um, the training schools, so building capability for young officers. And then in the last couple of years I was spent training middle to senior officers about their command decision making, you know, scenario planning and um, tactical um, thinking. So going from a soldier on the ground up to someone who may be managing the campaign in Iraq. So that's kind of where we were, we were changing our scenarios as I went through the organization. You know, I left in 2012, um, after 20 years service, but then went back in again 2013 as a reservist into the um, the learning element of the organization, the educational, training services. And currently I'm still as an active reservist in there working with them, building military capability going forward.

Speaker A: Excellent, excellent. What's that? 12, 13 years ago. Because we met over 10 years ago. It was me. And I think when we met you'd come out the army and uh, yeah, you mentioned about the reserves then. Do you know, it's, we're uh, never going to get through everything today at all. But it is interesting to learn how your life in the army has impacted on the work that you do these days. Because you work in corporate, we're not going to necessarily talk about your company, etc, you go, you can take it where you want to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but do you find that, I mean all those years ago, skills have evolved clearly. But do you still carry those skills forward into your work today or have you actually developed your own, uh, learning path?

Speaker B: I think it's a bit of both. Um, and obviously, you know, when you look at my company there, the emblem has, has two apples. It's got the square camouflage apple and then it's got the um, the open red apple. And the whole point of being that is knowledge, skills and capabilities that you learn in the armed forces do actually stay with you with life and can be transferred into civilian life. It's understanding how to do that change, which is actually where resilience comes. You know, being comfortable and adaptable to change. Um, and that's probably the biggest element of resilience, is accepting that change is the norm. Change is the business as usual, both in your, in your day to day life, but also within industry. And once you become comfortable with that, then actually you are more prepared to deal with certain situations. Um, and also able to adapt and understand and potentially thrive in events where others may not. Ah, it really is getting out of that mindset of it will happen to me to change your mindset to. It probably might happen to me. How do I manage if it does? So that's really, you know, the, the concept and that's the sort of stuff you learn from the military. Um, you know, the, the, the wider thinking, the, you know, what I would highlight there is, is understanding your threat landscape or the, you know, the operational landscape you're working in. What may be happening, why is it happening, how do I get involved in it, or what is my place in this space? Um, and then the big one is how can this situation change? What can I do about it? And those really, when you have that kind of thinking, when you walk into business, those are very transferable into scenario, new scenario planning, horizon scanning, risk management and then moving it into operational planning. Wow.

Speaker A: Because again, coming back to when we just talked about what resilience means, uh, and we haven't even touched the surface. There you are. Right. The word does get bantered around. And I talk about resilience. Well, being definitely come back to that. You know, the, the whole cliche is just about bouncing back. It. I, I'm not quite sure it completely means that in the sense that bouncing back sounds as if you have fallen to, to get back up. But also building resilience skills means that you're just improving on what you have as well, surely.

Speaker B: Yes. So, um, if someone tells me resilience bouncing back, in my mind, they, they're telling me they don't understand resilience.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and, and you know, that might sound, know, quite blase, but, or, you know, pedantic, but actually, you know, the situation you're not in now has changed. So therefore you will never go back to where you were. It's like Heraclitus and the river, you know, and he tells a story, you know, ancient Greek individuals, he tells a story about the individual and the river. Now the individual comes across the river and um, knows nothing about that river. And therefore their first bit of knowledge, you know, obtaining knowledge, is stepping into the river. So once an individual steps in the river, they understand the speed the water's flowing at, how deep it is, how cold it is. Uh, you know, and then he also, he also feels that he's, he's become wet and his legs wet. So he steps back out again. When he steps back in, although he's doing the same action, the water has moved, you know, he has just, he has disturbed the earth, uh, or the riverbed. He has already has knowledge about speed of the water, the, the, the temperature of the water, um, and the, the, the flow and also what the, the riverbed feels like. So even though he's doing exactly the same thing, he's never coming back to the same position. Everything around him has changed and that is resilience. And you know, you don't bounce back. You can never bounce back. Whatever you do has changed the environment you're in. And therefore you are in a different space, different time. Different is how you adapt to that environment. That depends how strong you, how strong your resilience levels are. Um, and the other thing is, you know, when somebody says I am a resilient person or I am a resilient organization, as soon as I hear that, t. That concerns me because you're saying resilience is definable. It's a define, it's a definite line in the ground. I am resilient. You know, you can Have a high level of resilience, but you are never fully resilient because there's always been an event which can knock you sideways. It can turn you upside down in an instant no matter how well prepared you are. So for me, you know, yes, you may be extremely. Have a high level of resilience and have extreme levels of resilience, but do not assume you are resilient because something will put you on your backside.

Speaker A: I absolutely love that. I love the way you've explained that. That was absolutely brilliant. I actually haven't heard it described that way, but it absolutely sense to me and I hope it does to the listeners. So one thing I was going to mention on that then that gentleman, that or that person's gone into the water, doesn't matter. Whoever it is, they've gone into the water. Um, that situation is not going to be again the same again when they take a next step forward. However, when they go back into the river or they take another step forward, they're going to be familiar with, with what it feels like to take that step forward, aren't they? Is that why they cope better? Is that why, I mean, okay, we're not getting to all the biology of it. Um, but they know that they've done that step previously and they're going to take another step. Does that mean they're going to cope with it better or they're just familiar,

Speaker B: they're familiar with it. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't make the assumption that they will cope better with it. And the reason I say that is there are many organizations that have done, done the same mistake twice and not actually learn from them. So again, individuals may, um, having done it once and they know the speed of water and, and how cold it is and how deep it is, may choose to do it exactly the same way they did it twice. You know, and m, we've heard the definition of madness to do the same thing time, time and time again and expecting something different. Um, so one would argue that's exactly the same. So you're an element of the resilience journey as you mature in your resilience levels is to understand the information you're capturing and taking that information, that knowledge, analyzing and analyzing it to turn it into intelligence. Mhm. Enable you to make a decision about whether or not should you do it again or should you do something different. That's where you start identifying lessons, building your awareness and building your business or individual capability. You're learning from experience.

Speaker A: Right. So I've just mind mapped now to the word stealth. Stealth, they use that a lot in the army, don't they? Is that so that is about strength. Because I'm mind mapping here relating it to resilience. What does that actually mean, that word in context?

Speaker B: So stealth, uh, it's not really about strength. Stealth itself.

Speaker A: Okay, look.

Speaker B: Yeah, what you're looking at is the ability to undertake things like either being seen or being known to have been there. So stealth itself, you may be here building resilience or building capability through stealth. So building your own without your competitors knowing, for example. So an industry, you know, if you talk about, you know, stealth of an industry, you're looking around and you realize actually there's, there are several competitors here who are challenging my position in the market. Um, if I want to be, if I want to be an organization that has a high level of resilience, I will build my own capability in a way that I'm not broadcasting it to others. So shoot a disruptive event, happen to the market, either to myself or to others. Actually what that then going to happen is I'm going to be able to adapt and thrive, learn quicker than others and therefore I will obtain a larger part of the market than they want. A good organization will focus on building what I call the base level of resilience. Um, and the reason being is, you know, if you think you're acting at business as usual and you will hit the disruptive event and they all come, somebody will come up with a really good idea. Um, you know, I normally call them corgis, the corporate officer's really good idea. And ideally you want to shoot as many of them as possible because most of them are, you know, they come without understanding what it's like to implement at the ground level. Uh, so that's where you know, you start doing exchange management. But that, that element is going to disrupt the organization. Your organization's performance will drop to where your base level of resilience is. Those that invest in it will have, huh, what I call a lower resilience gap drop. You know, the, the better paired you are, the lower, the, the less impact of your performance will be, the less gap between your resilience level and your bau. There will be a stage in time where you put in your immediate responses, your instant responses. You then you put in your recovery, your recovery activities and then you start to come back into building business as usual and uh, then back up to a certain level of operations and your resilience level will increase a little bit because you'll learn lessons the hard way. Your good organizations will do operational and organizational learning events. So they're actually increasing their level of resilience. So they are closing that resilience gap even further. More importantly, they're increasing their operational level because they're learning what went wrong. Why did it go wrong? What did my risk management process, Ms. M. That allowed this issue to get through into, to hurt the organization in the first place. By doing that, it has more information, more knowledge, more intelligence. It increases its capability. That's what you look at from a mature organization. That's where you have your lessons identified, lessons learned. Um, and uh, for me, one of the, um, things that really concerns me is when I hear industries or business or individuals talk about learning lessons. And they also go, I have a learn. I've got a learned lesson event. I've done a workshop, a lessons learned workshop. And we've captured this information and actually it's not a, a learned lesson. Learning a lesson comes in four stages. I identify it, so I take that knowledge, I apply it to the organization. Does it make a change? Yes. Okay. I embed it. Once it's embedded, I go back and say, have I made a significant change to the organization? Yes, I have. Excellent. I have now learned that lesson. But it's four stages of doing doesn't just. I've had a workshop, captured a lesson, job done, lesson learned. It's not like that.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And that's um, I mean, through years and years of experience working for companies, even as contracting, you know, we talk about lessons learned. Um, and that's almost saying exactly what you said. You, you've, you've had next an experience, um, you've reflected on it and you've noted down maybe what you could do better. But unless that's done in practice and you've taken that forward to make those improvements, because that's what building resilience is all about, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yes, it's a building improvements for the organization, but also making sure, should something go wrong, you have the ability to adapt and thrive in a disruptive event. And you'll hear people talking about vuca. Volatile, uncertain, um, complex, ambiguous world.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: The new one is just tuna from what I've heard. Turbulent, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. You've also got VUCA with an H. You know, so you've got volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous, hyper connected. Um. Change is normal. Change is the daily grind. Every day I walk outside, the environment I'm moving into has changed. And yet businesses seek to try and stay still in a moving environment. Individuals who Seek to stay still in a moving environment, suddenly find themselves discombobulated because the world around them has changed and they have not kept up. Um, so that's where that resilience level comes from, is becoming comfortable to change and open to adapting.

Speaker A: Lovely. Gosh, you are an expert. We know that I am not worthy. I'm not worthy. Aaron. No, but seriously, I love talking to you. We need to have more conversations around this. Okay, so a step further. Ah. When a company assumes, uh, I don't like that word either. I'm going to use it. They may assume that they've reached a comfortable stage. Do you feel that they, an organization has to then step out of its comfort zone in order to thrive more, in order to progress more? Do you see organizations in your experience saying static because they're comfortable and there's so much more they could do to build a resilient workforce, to, to build resilience within the work?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, yes. I mean those companies. So it gets, it's understanding your maturity level as a business. So if you, if you look, uh, very, very simple. As part of my, my research, I, I built a mature, a resilience maturity model and I looked at, you know, five areas, actually six, from non existent to industry or sector leader. You know, uh, and you don't have to, you don't have to be an industry sector or an industry leader. You can decide that in some areas, for example business continuity or financial planning, you want to be middle of the road, you want to be a three. Because to get to a four, you know, to be heavily established in your sector, it's going to take a lot of money, a lot of resources. You haven't got that capability. So actually I'm quite happy to be a three because I'm delivering what I need to do. Um, it's prioritizing. Uh, what worries me is organizations who stay, who seek to stay still without a vision or a strategy or an end state. So for me, three words I always use, always have used, part of my planning is ends, ways and means.

Speaker A: Can you say that again please?

Speaker B: Three ends, ways and means. And what I mean by that, what's my end state? M. You know, how am I going to get there? M. In a way. And the means, what resource I, um, want to do am I going to use to get that journey. So if I put that in a business language, I'm looking for my business vision, the resources I'm going to require, and my strategy to get there. Now if I work with a business or chat to Business leaders and they go and uh, the first thing I ask is what's your strategy to get by? Go, you know, where's your end state, what's your objective, what's your, your business objectives and what resources have you got? And I'm either faced with a series of blank faces or questions or a blank piece of paper that, that worries me greatly because it shows there is no long term planning for the business. It shows that actually what they're doing is living today for the living day to day rather than there's the end state I want to get to in three to five years, I know where and that's where I want to be. I can then look backwards and go how do I get there? And year one might be actually what I need to do is I need to find three suppliers or I need to find three customers or I need to build my workforce by 5%. Year two it might be okay, I need to increase my workforce by 10%, I need to grab 5% of market, I need to produce a new, a new tool or something else like that, or open a new market. So I'm building it. And but by having my end state, you know where I want to be, I'm then able to now start building a high level business plan. I can then start putting things in place, popping in my milestones, what do I want to achieve and where, what resources I want to need to do that. So, and even if you want to stay still, and I'd argue staying still is probably the worst thing you could do because your competitors around you will move forward, leaving you behind and then you become a relic, um, which then means that you will either die out as an organization, you'll lose your market share or you'll be absorbed by someone else. Um, and that's the risk of not grasping um, opportunities or not just maintaining a regular drumbeat of advancement. A static organization is an organization that also doesn't invest in its workforce. It doesn't empower its workforce to think, educate, empower, move forward. Um, because any workforce will look around and what's going on, okay, how can we do things better? And they will innovate and there may be self innovation. So I say I've got a problem, I'll fix it and then I'll share with my friends and then collectively we will make this better or be organizational innovation together collectively we will do business research, seek to make things that uh, don't exist or adapt what we've got to become better. But a static organization is already in trouble.

Speaker A: Gonna pick some of that back up again. Thank you for that. Um, Aaron, we talk about blank canvases. Sometimes there's something leaving, well, being out of it for a moment, um, because I have a little bit of a quirky approach to that, but it certainly does talk about strategies and um, what we're talking about now. But as a business, just going just to, to finish off on that. If a company is at a stage where they're not, when something isn't broken, you don't have to fix it. You know that cliche. However, starting at the very beginning on something, uh, especially when maybe an organization, an area of it may not be working out, it's restructuring, it was in a little bit of a mess. At what point do they, would you actually go into an organization and say we need to start over here from ground up? Or is it not that easy?

Speaker B: It's not that easy to establish organizations. And the reason being is that if I walk, if I walk into an organization, have a look around, go, oh my Lord, what is going on here? Um, automatically I'm going to look at, okay, what processes in place, what the frameworks you've got, what's the strategy? Is there a strategy? What's the policy framework? What's the culture? Now if I am going to start an organization from scratch, the first thing I'm going to have to really tackle is the culture. Mhm. Because no matter what I do, if you do not, if the culture needs to change and you don't change the culture, no matter what else you do, the culture will always seek to absorb it, spit it back out and go, no, that's not what we do here. This is the way we've always done it. This is us. And within culture. You look at the research that Hofstadt did in this space, there are certain things that sit in that culture now. There's the values of the organization, there's the behaviors of the workforce that are created by the values that, that those inner deep values that are bred into the organization. There's always the various rituals that they, they follow through. You know, if you think when we, we were working together, whiteboards and vis boards and they were. It was a cultural thing. It was a, it will be done Monday morning at uh, 0900 hours. You will brief us using your whiteboard or using your visibility board. And when you look at that, you know, the vis boards on what the whole purpose of that was. The purpose of that was to identify where you're working well, where you weren't working well, and Sit as a collective group, normally a leadership group, and say, okay, how can we help each other to do better? Where are you weak and what resources can we bring to bear to actually help you? What we actually saw was the vis board becoming a stick to beat people with for poor performance. The culture of the organization that was happening in had a predisposition to look for someone to blame. And therefore the vis board, rather than being a tool to discussion and move forward and be proactive, became a tool to beat the failure with. Because that's what the culture was, you know, aligned to, you know, blame culture. So, and this is what I mean by when you walk in an organization, you know, it's very difficult to go clean slate, start from scratch, because there's always going to be a cultural element sat behind there. There's also been history and there's also going to be traditions. So anyone who comes in and says, we're going to do all from scratch is already on a loser because they are already hitting a brick wall. Um, you know, and, and you see this, you see this in the military when you, when, when regiments come together and you take two regiments and margin into one, you've got two historical organizations with hundreds, um, of years of history being blended and they don't mix. It takes a while. It's very turbulent. You know, Tuckman looked at this when he did his, his team model. You know, the, you know, the coming together, the foreman, the form and storming Norman performing and then, uh, a journey again. That's all about that coming together. Actually. Where's a bit of turbulence, a bit of understanding of building who's, who's got the biggest ego, who actually understands, who's got the knowledge, but actually building that, not building that. When you add culture into that as well, it even increases the mix even more, especially at organizational level. So actually, as a consultant walking in, you've got to be aware of the culture and operate within that. And it might be, you know, there is, there is, uh, a part of the organization that can reset the culture. It's the exec. You know, the executive leads are in the privileged position that they can step outside of an organization and reset the culture, but they've got to be willing to do so. That's why they are at that level. They are, they are not captured by the organization. They are setting the direction. They are providing the leadership for that organization. They are the ones that can say, the current culture is not right, we need to change it. And we will support and we will empower and we Will, you know, reinforce that culture change and we will fund it. But rarely do you get that. And the reason for that is at most exec level have been brought up through the organization, therefore are captured by the culture.

Speaker A: Yes, just thinking that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So therefore if you, if you are ah, if you have an exec that has lived through that organization for 25 or 30 years, they are captives of the culture and they're going to struggle to change it. Uh, so that's why sometimes you get individuals parachute in who reset culture, stay for a couple of years and then move on because they've done what they've been set to do, reset the culture. Um, or people come in and they very quickly feel because the culture has eaten them alive.

Speaker A: And a lot of people, and I've heard it time and time again, they don't like outsiders sometimes. And so let's just talk about um, even the um, I call them a shop floor. So this isn't about saying the right terminology, but in a company, you know, if there is an element of a hierarchy, um, or certainly in terms of job titles etc, you've, you've always got the people call it the shop floor as it were, on the ground, ground routes, even though they feed into the top. And that's, that's not what we're talking about here. They don't like outsiders necessary coming in. But clearly people at the top realize that that's what's got to happen. But in terms of changing a culture, because you talk about organizational resilience, culture, how, what does I mean firstly, typically, what's the definition of culture in an organization? Because I've heard that um,

Speaker B: your culture is your, your lifeblood of that organization. That is what, what has, you know, it has, it's a system of systems that connect everyone and it is what people have become. So it's almost like a society within a society. So and you've got to really understand that uh, and they'll be within, within the organizational culture which has been built up from its history and its heroes and its rituals and that the values of that there'll be subcultures. So for, ah, for me walking into a business, first question I'm going to ask is, you know, what, what are the visual manifestations of that culture?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Why am I walking into that? And actually am I walking into somewhere like Google, which is open fun, it's engaging, you know, there's quirky things all over the place. So actually I see the culture of this is empowerment on the workflow, innovation, Right. Or uh, walking into an organization which is cold, sterile, rigid. You know there is. The shop floor is clearly marked with the shop floor. The CEO has the mahogany desk in the office and in between them is the middle management who you know cannot be approached with. They've got to go through several team organizers or PAs before you can talk to someone. It's very hierarchical, very rigid, very static. The culture is very, very different compared to that. So actually the workforce is very dislocated from the leadership where something like Google is quite flat. So CEO may go and sit down around the coffee table with a bunch from the workforce going what do you think today? What's, what's your thoughts? How's your journey here? So it's a very different approach. Um,

Speaker A: do you think? Sorry, yeah.

Speaker B: The military went through that change as well for me. Very hierarchical. Taxi. Realizing that we empower our junior soldiers to make decisions because actually the situation, technology, everything else has advanced. So therefore the decision making and the ability to make a decision and go with it has got to go with it as well.

Speaker A: M. Say in the police force, the army, in those kind of um. Industries. Industries, maybe not the right word. There has to be an element of hierarchy, doesn't there? Because of the process, uh, of the orders that um. Is that right? Where is the similarities between say the forces and um, a corporate company?

Speaker B: There's quite a bit. And the reason is because you know we have project managers, program managers, we have resourcing managers, procurement. Uh, here we have senior managers who be equivalent to managing directors of business. And actually there's been a drive now with the forces to do more business speed. Um, so I regularly support the forces in various courses I run change management, risk management. Because there were that there's a way of thinking in the forces which is aimed to do a certain thing but actually that's over there. When they're in operations and doing stuff which we imagine them always doing, there's a large time of the forces, they're set back in the UK or on this and they're just a living normal organization with a hierarchical structure, doing change management and a lot of other day to day stuff. So they've got to understand how to operate in peacetime as well as in wartime and operations. Um, so we've got to think more like a business. So it is, you know, it's almost like a split personality. Um, likewise in industry, you know, yes there's got to be hierarchy but sometimes it could be too rigid and therefore you get by getting that dislocation from workforce to senior leadership. Um, workforce become disenchanted, disenfranchised because they're not listening. Leadership is. Why won't they change? They need to change. We need to go forward. You know, it's all their fault. They're not changing, they're not adapting. We're going to get bus. Okay, well we need to save money. Well, let's cut the workforce. We can't. You know, so suddenly, you know, it's, it's, it's impact. Um, people chase technology. And a real interesting one when you look at organizations who are seeking to be, you know, advancing in technology at ah, a rapid pace. Technology is an enabling capability. M, someone's still going to make a decision. So no matter how good your technology is, there's still got to be a human in the loop. Um, and uh, when everything goes wrong, it's the human individual who is able to adapt. Researchers show me despite the most advanced AI, the human brain is still far advanced and far more capable than where we are at the moment with AI. Um, and therefore under um, real pressure, organizational working workforces who believe the leadership are working with them will go out of their way to do above and beyond. Those workforces that disenfranchised will work the bare minimum and then seek to leave. Uh, and that's really where the balance is. Um, and for me that's the real difference between transactional leadership and transformational leadership. Understanding your people.

Speaker A: Yeah. So in terms of helping to change a culture, I mean clearly we haven't got, you know, time to go through every step of the way. Um, where do you get the buy in from? Um, because everyone's needs to be bought into a change in culture. But you're not all sitting down and saying, hey everybody, we're going to change the culture today. Because it's not an overnight process, is it?

Speaker B: You know, if you're looking to change a corporate culture, you look between five to ten years.

Speaker A: Wow, really?

Speaker B: Uh, and the problem is most businesses want to do in one or two. And so therefore straight away there's a disconnect. Um, so first thing to do is you need to understand what the challenges are. Um, and so you look around and it's understanding the business but understanding your people. So there are many times I've sat with organizations and I've, you have been involved in briefings as part of an organization or I've been brought in as consultant and I'll sit there and um, first thing I'll do is, okay, what's the problem? What is it you're asking me to do, why am I here? I am not here to fix your problems, and I'm sure as heck not here to own your problems. Not my job. These are your problems. You need to hang on to it. You need to fix it, um, because they are yours to own.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, so I will then say, put me in a box and tell me what you need me to do. And I'll go away and I'll do that and I'll work your teams. So I will go and I'll first of all talk to the workforce. And what I, uh, find on a regular basis is the information that I'm seeking to obtain has already been told several times up the chin, but for some reason hasn't landed. And you and I have been on the receiving end of that as well as I've sat and I brief senior leaders, but they haven't heard the message.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So they bring in a consultant, and a consultant will come across and they will ask exactly same questions. They will gather the information, they'll put it in business speak or a shiny presentation, or they will use fandango words, or they'll pull on connections, or they'll get this very eloquent individual to do the delivery to senior stream, and suddenly the message lands and it's, wow, haven't they saved the organization? Well, no, they haven't. What they've done is they've actually, they've asked your people, they've listened to what's been said, they've translated into your speak, and now you're understanding it.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You're the leadership group. It is your job to understand what your workforce is telling you. It's not your workforce's job to translate their language to the leadership. They don't get paid enough. That's not their expectations. M. They are the subject matter experts in their work. You, as the leadership group, are there as managers, as leaders. So if I translate that into the military, I, as a senior officer in the military, would not be expected to understand how every single piece of equipment worked, or the planning processes, or the distances of missile systems, or, uh, bringing it all together, coordinating aircraft, artillery, rockets and guns and all that sort of stuff. That's not my role. My role is to grab 12 individuals, all subject matter experts in their field, sit down and come up with a plan utilizing their knowledge and their capability.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: Then regularly I sit there and say, right, here's the situation. Work it out. You know, break in three teams, go and create possible plans, and they'll come back and, you know, they may give me three or four different plans. I don't own those plans. They do now. When I then make that decision. Okay, what we're going to do then is we're going to follow Team 2's plan. I am now taking ownership of that plan. I am now taking that leadership role. Says, right, we've got this plan and what we're not going to do is we want to develop it. And what I would like to thrash out is, can we flesh this, but can we add this bit? Can we remove this bit? This is now our plan and I am not taking accountability for it. Business doesn't really do that. And that's probably. You're really good businesses, do they empower individuals. Go away, work up ideas, look at it, you know, tell me what I need, I bring it back. Okay, boss, here's. Here's options. That one doesn't work. That one. That one might work. Okay, what about we take bits of that one, bits of that one, bits that one, mash it together. Great, we've now got a plan. Now my plan. And then I give direction. And that's sometimes where you see failing organizations lack that capability. Oh, goes back to. I haven't got that end state to go to.

Speaker A: And it is that element of collaboration without. I mean, they talk about overstepping the mark and we can't have everybody chipping in in a way that you cause an anarchy. But at the end of the day, there's got to be, you know, the adults. There's got to be an element of leadership and respect so that we're pulling out the strengths. That's. I mean, again, team building teams is another topic altogether. One question for you. It just came to mind. So you've got the company, you've got the organization, and, uh, they're developing a culture. However, bear in mind that, you know, there's a lot of attrition going on, restructures, people leaving a company. Some people depending on the industry, you know, will be there for 20, 30 years, another one, their turnover every couple of years. So. So I'm just, I'm just playing around with this and thinking, I've come into a company as a new employee and I'm joining a new culture. But if the culture is constantly changing and probably too many questions here, um, whose responsibility is it to build a culture in a company? And where do the employees in the workforce come into this? Answer, um, whatever you want out of that. I've got it going around my head, right?

Speaker B: So I'm Walking into an organization. I am Johnny Newboy, age 30, coming into a company which I m. Am already working the company with a established set of personal values. M. So the first thing I want to do, again it is where as an individual you've got to decide, is this company right for me? Do my values align with what this company is seeking to do? Because if it doesn't, you walk away straight away. Because if you stay there and your values are in conflict with the organizational values, you, you'll very quickly become demotivated, disenfranchised, and you'll probably end up leaving on a disciplinary or you'll just leave, uh, because you, you don't like what's happening around you. So that's the first bit. That's, that's where your individual moral courage has got to be.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, I am here, but actually this company does not match my inner values and therefore it's not a right fit for me. And I think looking at it and you, I. I've done at the beginning, several interviews and I've walked away from three interviews halfway through because actually I think this doesn't match what I'm looking for. Um, and I am grown up enough to know that I will not work with your organization because what you're telling me and what I'm seeing here does not align my inner values. Um, yeah. And still that is your own professional level of resilience, self respect, self worth, you know, whatever you wish to call it, you know, self awareness, going, no, not for me. But you know, I've come in the company and actually the culture and also the uh, the uh, the values align with me. So therefore I'm looking around the culture, it's looking at uh, who in the workplace can I initially engage with who talks, talks similar to myself, who looks into myself, who's got similar mindsets, Work ethics. I forgot. So actually you're starting to fit in. Your manager should be looking at bringing you in, you know, helping that transition from newbie into um, six month employee, into where you want to go, but also sitting there working with you on what. Where do you see yourself in this organization in 1, 3, 5, 10 years time?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What do you want to achieve? Um, and from that, as you know, from the individual arriving and having a management group around it. Yeah. People talk about onboarding processes and onboarding this introductory that it's really about people and that comes down to culture. You have to question who sets the culture. Culture set from the top. If I look at the top and I see A leader who is actually engaging, empowering and moving on. A Richard Branson for example, very outgoing, very engaging. Um, you know, he's a leader you wouldn't call a manager, you know and the reason. Yeah, see, absolutely not. Because you know a manager will do things right. You know, a leader will do the right thing. Very different.

Speaker A: Nice one.

Speaker B: Um, because the whole point of being that leader is being able to look around, grasp what I need to make a decision. I need to make it now. I'm giving that leadership direction. The manager sitting there going, okay, leaders made the decision, we're going that way. I need to manage all my resources to enable me to deliver his vision, what he wants. Um, and sometimes what you end up getting is a manager being put into a leadership role and struggles. Likewise a leader put into a management role and really struggles because they feel constrained. Yes, they are disempowered. That leadership element that make decisions go for your innovation is cramped by. No, you operate within this box and I need you to do X, Y and Z. Um, so some of your best disruptive thinkers, you would not ask them to manage a cardboard box because you wouldn't trust them. But by being disruptive and challenging the organization, actually they will empower an organization to change.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and so that's really we need. It's finding the right person for the right role in that organization. Know your bel and everything else. I got all those assessments. You know, who is the plant, who's the driver, who's the innovator, who's the, who's the doer, who's the thinker, who's the um, the individual who stands at the back with the, with the um, the spreadsheet and flip chart, making sure everybody is the right place, the right time, doing the right thing. Everyone's got a role. And for the plant who's sparking ideas, the person with a, with the flip chart or the spreadsheet is the most boring individual in the world. But for the guy or girl with the flip chart, the plant is throwing out ideas. It's throwing things to see where it sticks against the wall is the most infuriating individual because they're not actually producing anything, they're just throwing out it. But I need them all. And that's really where your leader comes into play. And the whole point we're talking to model is finding out who sits where, when. And the leader is the one who brings it all together and then appoints the various managers to deliver the ET capability to achieve the leaders mission.

Speaker A: No, lovely, thank you for that explained really well. Because one of the reasons I was asking that question is because again, with so many organizations restructuring at the moment and so much, uh, change going on in many companies, especially size, larger companies, um, you've mentioned that it can take 5, 10 years to change a culture. So therefore it's always a work in progress, isn't it? Um, in essence, does it get to a stage? So say the companies, uh, you know, they've got all their values, missions. Because you go in and when you're onboarded and you get your leaflet and say, these are our mission statements, these are our values and these are objectives. A company has to have them up to a point. But like you said, at some point they do get challenged and the world evolves, the economy and the climate and everything else changes. So those people coming in, the duty of care, I guess is that they filter down these messages and these values so that, um, assuming people are there, I'm using that word again. Assuming if those people are there because they want to be there, which a lot of them don't, that's another subject. Um, just from m. A practical point of view, then the duty of care is to help each other understand those, those values and those, um. So that the culture does take shape and goes in the right direction.

Speaker B: It does. Again, if you're looking at the change process. So there's. Everybody knows the Kubler Ross change curve where you go on, it's a nice smooth transitional curve and you go in and you're happily working away and someone throws up this new idea, first of all, you rebel against it with anger and yet you try and bargain your way out of it. And then there's depression and there's acceptance and then you crawl out the other side and you're operating on a better level. And it's a smooth transition. Or you have Satir's version of it, which actually is complete chaos all the way through. And there's peaks and troughs all the way through that journey.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Which is actually more like reality. Mhm. Um, and the challenge, the challenge there is, is actually is helping people through that journey. Because if you look at an organization going through change, um, I will go through the change process at a certain rate of knots. Mhm. You'll then do it at a different rate of knots. And an organization of 50 or 60 people, there's 50 or 60 different change curves all happening at once. And we're all in a different space and a new organization is going through that curve at the same time. Managers who seek to drive everyone through that change curve at the same speed are destined to fail because people just can't. I've got to absorb what this change means to me. I've got to decide, do I still want to stay here?

Speaker A: Do I still.

Speaker B: Does this work for me? Do I see the end goal? Um, and therefore it's, it's change is an individual thing.

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Um, and depending on my level of personal resilience, depends how I manage that change. And this is where I come back to, you know, change and resilience, they work hand in hand. Uh, if I have a high level of resilience, change, I will cope with the most change. If I'm quite low in my resilience or I have, uh, constantly be going through cycles of change, which is drawing my resilience to a lower level. I want, uh, sometime along that journey, I will break. And I go, enough is enough. And you see that in a lot of organizations which are constantly going through change, people get change fatigue, then leads to change resistance, which then leads to organizations in the leadership fighting the workforce.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, which invariably, potentially looks at breaking that organization. So it's understanding that. And really the most important thing about changes, you set the change, you put it in motion, you stop the change, you let it settle and then review it. Did it work? Did it deliver? What you see constant in organizations is change upon change upon change. So no change has settled, which then results in break in the workforce.

Speaker A: Makes complete sense. Aaron, I'm really enjoying this podcast because, uh, even though part of my work is around employee wellbeing, uh, well, a lot of my work is around employee wellbeing and resilience. You know, there are just so many different levels to it and so much information. And I think people can get overwhelmed with it, which is maybe why they put resilience into, you know, into a little square shape and say, that's what. Talk about squares. Actually, I've branched off again. Now. Go on, tell us about your. Your business. The square apples.

Speaker B: Okay, so squared apples, you know, what is the purpose of it? So the, the concept of. The concept of the logo, first of all, because everyone I would ask me, a, why is it called squared apples? And B, what is the logo? And so the concept is, you know, everyone assumes apple as the fruit of knowledge. And that's what you see in here, the apple fruit of knowledge. Um, and we're used to seeing the apple as a circular thing. So I said, okay, well, I'll give you something that you're very comfortable with. In a very different shape. So there you go. That's what you, that is an apple putting that square. Um, the logo also has camouflage apple and the red apple in the background. Because the whole point of that is bringing knowledge from my previous life, my previous service, but actually showing that the armed forces and people in the armed forces can bring a lot to industry. Um, and then the open up itself. Command leadership, um, command control leadership. Um, and the whole aspect about that is the three levels of an organization so you can have control of more, you can have command, but then the expectation of leadership. And by that you know that the whole cm, command leadership and management, bringing that together are your three layers of an organization. Management leadership sets above the directions. But actually when you put leadership and management m together you get command, you know, and the fact that you have that, you have that because people respect you. Um, and this is really the point is just because you sit in a management role or a leadership role does not mean people have to respect you. They may have to follow you, but they do not need you because hierarchy you must do or you can leave. Um, but they may, they, they don't have to choose to follow you.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, and the key thing is you can only be a leader if you have followers or else you're just a nut job in the park by himself.

Speaker A: Yes. You're not leading anybody, are you?

Speaker B: That's the whole point. So people, I'm a leader says, well, okay, really, if you're a leader, what are you leading? What do you lead? Show me the team that you lead. Show me your followers. You know, and that's the whole point is, you know, the followership, the followship is as important as leadership. And if you have no followers then you are not a leader because you can stand there, go follow me and okay, well, nope, no one's following you. So away you go, off you go by yourself. See you next week. Come back when you've, when you've realized you're lost. Um, and that's where you start getting, you know, leadership teams being overthrown or you end up getting a vote of no confidence or you get an organization that you know, does it's internal survey and one goes, actually leadership group out of 20. I'm giving you two. They have lost the workforce. They are not leading. They're sat in a position of power, but they're not leaving the organization. That's eventually where they, they normally get the um, yeah. Thank you very much. There's your packet, there's your pay packet. Close the front Door on your way out, clear a desk, leave or you get a um, you know, if it's government body, a complete restructuring top level because they have lost the ability to lead but not realized it.

Speaker A: That's amazing. That isn't it? And that's uh, I mean we get. There's quite a few different egos, aren't there, out there in different organizations? Um, you know, we all have an ego. Again, that's gosh, how many podcasts we're going to do between us, I'll tell you. But um, yeah, I mean we've, we have covered a lot. I can't believe where the time's gone. Nearly coming up for an hour. Aaron. Um, we're definitely gonna have to do like a mini series on this because really we're not even touching employee wellbeing in itself. Is there anything you'd like to add to this around organization? Building resilience in, in within an organization? Because we'd started off with resilience in itself and like you said, it's, it's an open ended and it's, it isn't. Um, you know, you can, might be able to explain it in a nutshell but, but it is something that filters through the organization in everybody's job and everybody's life. Resilience, isn't it? I mean stress management, I like to connect with that. We'll talk about that one another time as well. Um, but yeah, is there anything you can add to that or you'd like to talk about?

Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, building a company's resilience profile is everybody's job. Um, yes, you'll have, you know, subject matter experts in certain areas. So for example with, you know, within a large business you'll have individuals who are your risk managers. You have business individuals who are your exercise planners or your emergency planners or your instant response individuals. You'll have your business continuity teams, um, and then you'll have those that do governance and assurance. You know, you're learning lessons, your trainers and they will all exist in the business and they are all SMEs within that, within their area.

Speaker A: Yes, they are.

Speaker B: But actually resilience is an all person sport. Um, everyone's involved in it. Everyone is, everyone is empowered to look around and say actually that's not working and go why is that not working? Well, it's not working because of X. Can I do anything about it? No, I can't. But I know a person who might be able to let me go and tell them so it's that and that's what I mean when I talk about building a culture of resilience, building that ability to be comfortable with change. Um, be comfortable looking around saying that's not quite right. I might not know the answer, but I know someone who does. But also looking at something going, there's an issue here. I'm not just going, hands up in the air, there's an issue, it's broken. That culture of resilience is. There's an issue, it's broken. Oh, and by the way, here are potentially four options. Do we fix it? Or here is somebody else who you need to talk to who may be able to fix it. It's that extra step. The. So what, what does this mean to me? How do I make it better? Organizations, um, that are. Start embedding that into their in, into their workforce, into their culture, in that culture, that culture of empowerment culture, support, you know, a learning culture for. If you're looking at high, high reliability organizations, you know that, that focus on expertise M. They are the companies that start building their resilience and start to thrive when the world is in a disruptive state. Um, the key thing for me is trusting your experts. Trust your experts. They're there for a reason. Don't bring in a jack of all trades consultant because they're in a shiny suit and can make a very good PowerPoint presentation. Trust the guy or girl who sat there covered in oil or mud with the wrench or, or the drill. He's been doing it for 20 odd years. Because they understand the environment they operate in. They're the ones you go sit down and says, tell you what, how do I make this better for you? You know, how do I increase your environment to make it more enjoyable to working? And you might not be able to do that. The fact you've asked that question means they sit there and go, someone is asking me what I think. And that in itself is a powerful move to change in your culture.

Speaker A: Yeah, ah, just going to use that word, powerful because you know, whether, whether it's uh, in a manufacturing industry or even supermarkets. I mean I just. Something simple touching on that in the supermarket the other day. It's, it's the answers that people give you when they don't know the answer. So for example, you ask XYZ and they go no, it's not my job. Or I don't know, you go, well, and you're waiting for the next bit and the lack of, I mean, uh, again, we're not going to staff engagement this very, very moment. But all Interweaves all these things, doesn't it? The culture, the resilience, the staff engagement, the this, the well being. We're going to talk about that next time. Um, but it's educating and, and, and helping the, the workforce to just to talk to other people and have to explore if they don't know who else does. And I just feel quite strongly that the word jobs worth has been going around for hundreds of years. But there is an element of it's just not my job. Well how on earth you going to either build a culture or have your employees repeat that message? Um, whether it's in the teams or whether they're over lunch and they're just talking to a colleague, you know, we, that's how the culture gets embedded, doesn't it? Through repetition.

Speaker B: And that is not my job. Is because you've taught the organization to operate in silence. Do not walk outside your box. That is you. That's it. I, you know, not my job. No individual just wants something. I go, it's not my job. They have been told that they are not allowed to step left or right and therefore they'll sit in that box and go okay, so I, you ask me a question. That's not my job. That's Jenny's job over there. Not, not. I don't know. But actually if you go and ask Jenny who's over there, she might m exactly the same approach but a very different response still. You still haven't got the answer from me. But one is just a don't know so I can't help you. The other one is I don't know. But actually I know a person who does. So I've just changed that bit. I'm empowered to actually help you by saying look over there. It's good customer service. It's that outward facing of the organization. It's your reputational building. It's all that. And I always remember uh, years ago watching uh, Richard Branson standing on top of major train crash or an air crash or what it was. The first thing he said was as the CEO of this organization, my heart goes out to the relatives of those that have been injured in this event. We as an organization will be looking to reach out and support them, their families and those that are also affected by this event. Mhm. The first three or four minutes was all about how that organization would help someone else or help the individuals. Only then do they then start. You know what we're now looking at doing X, Y and Z. We'll be doing investigation or we look into this very different to what you hear from very technically minded businesses. Which goes. What we are going to do is we are going to undertake an investigation to identify what has happened, how it's happened and why it's happened. We will then be doing okay. Where's the person approach? Where's the humanity? And that's really again understanding that culture component. Am I engaging and focusing on the humanity of the organization or my technical and cold and being that very, you know, brick face cold business that people struggle to engage with.

Speaker A: And that is where people close off, don't they? And just say this is corporate, corporate, corporate or, or the speak. I mean won't talk about politics. I'm no good at that anyway. But. Hm. I'm just as an example is just. Yeah, people, people want that humanity and compassion. Um, because we're not all robots, not AI yet. Goodness me.

Speaker B: Um, I'll tell you what you could do. You're sitting down here and pick through the bones of this and then come up with, come up with several topics and we, we can, we can sit down, have a cup of coffee and we can pick each topic, you know, and throw it around, see what sticks on the wall.

Speaker A: Absolutely. This is what I'm thinking. So uh, you've heard that from the uh, from the gentleman himself, everybody. So let's round off, let's wrap it up for you now because of your time as well. Thank you very much for. But you have in your business. We, you know, we want to let people know where they can find you. So do you work specifically with organizations as opposed to individuals, just so we're clear on that direction or uh, work organizations?

Speaker B: I can work with individuals. You know, for me, I sit. I've gone from helping people write msc, um, theses, you know, sitting to acting as someone to bunch ideas off to reviewing them, helping with the university papers. When they look at things like that, right after sitting down, you know, training 15 to 20 people and things like organizational change, risk management. Um, so yeah, I can, I work individuals, I work with businesses, I work with government organizations and this sort of stuff. It uh, really is just helping people understand the concept of resilience. But then take an inward look and ask what are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? How do we make it better?

Speaker A: Wonderful. So they can find you at. We're going to put everything in the show notes and find you at Squared Apples.

Speaker B: You can date. Yeah, you know I'm on, on the Internet Squared Apples. You'll find that crazy logo. You know, come and say Hi. You know, the whole website's up there as well.

Speaker A: Uh, wonderful. You know, honestly, what can I say? Thank you ever so much, Aaron. Um, I could have you for another two hours chatting about this. Yeah. You could actually see me, everybody. Um, yeah. So I'm gonna let you go, but thank you ever so much coming on today and, uh, no problem whatsoever. Yeah.

Speaker B: And if you want to, you know, stick a regular one in with a cup of coffee and we'll. We'll try and pick the world tonight.

Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. Let's. Let's do that. Okay. And then we'll get on to employee well being.

Speaker B: Wow. And resilience.

Speaker A: Right. Thank you very much. Take care. Thank you. Thanks.

Speaker B: No problem whatsoever. Bye. Bye.

Speaker A: Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Remember, our show is about helping you to create healthier habits in the life you live now. Until new lifestyle practices change how you live your life. Well, that's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening and taking time out to join us. If you enjoyed the show, it would be really great if you could leave a review on whatever platform you've been listening to this on. And I look forward to welcoming you back to the show next week. This has been your host, Sarah, Ashley, Neal,

Speaker B: Sam.