Elliot Johnson: Addition by Subtraction in Law Firm Marketing

Speaker A: Hey, everybody, before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be that Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business, developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We've got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today@, uh, bethatlawyer.com community and other than that, please enjoy the show.

Speaker B: You're listening to Be that Lawyer. Uh, strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretson, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretson.

Speaker A: Hey, everybody, Steve Fretson. And welcome to the Be that Lawyer podcast. We're helping you build that book and own your future and do it all here twice a week, every week for, uh, over six years. I think we're like 620 episodes, Elliot, and just continuing to storm forward. You guys want to hear something funny? I was reminiscent about my father, the late, great Larry the lawyer who did episode, uh, number 200. And I tried to do it without crying too much, but I did listen to it the other day and just kind of picked up all the cool little things he did as a lawyer who never did business development or marketing, yet was doing it without knowing it and developing a very strong career in legal. And you guys want to ever check that out? Just to hear me, uh, you know, kind of yak it up with my old man. He passed away a few years ago. But, uh, kind of fun to listen to episode 200 if you want to check it out. Got Elliot Wade in the wings. How you doing, Elliot? Good to see you, man.

Speaker C: I'm doing well. Great to see you. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we're going to have a good time today and help out some lawyers, starting with our quote of the show. Excellence is addition by subtraction. What the heck does that mean?

Speaker C: Basically, it's just growth comes from cutting. So what isn't working? So the few things that you're actually doing with your limited resources, your limited time, your limited money, you focus on those so you can actually perform and get what you want. So everybody wants to add, everybody wants to do, uh, everything under the sun, but the discipline is actually in subtracting.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Tell you, the greatest decision I ever made and it took a coach to pull it out of me, was I was running four companies and running a major networking association in Chicago, all at the Same time. And I was not happy. And he was like, you know, what do you love doing? I love coaching lawyers. I love working with them on sales, free selling. He goes, well, then why are you doing all these other things? I go, because I'm, you know, I'm, um, a shiny penny guy or I'm just like, you know, new is exciting and all this. And he's like, get rid of it all. Just go back to doing what you love. And I'll tell you, the greatest decision I ever made was just cutting everything and everybody and just going back to doing what you're, you know, what you're interest and passion and skill is so really, really fun stuff. Well, Elliot, I'm excited to get down to business today. We have a lot to cover. Elliot Johnson, everybody's the CMO of Angel Rays and Associates. And give us a little background on how you came to be a CMO in the legal space.

Speaker C: Sure. So my background is primarily business. My undergrad was business. Uh, my father was a manager. He managed, uh, his whole life managing team. So I thought I was going to, you know, I followed in his footsteps quickly. After my undergraduate, I went and got my mba. I just, I was always, I'm always usually pretty future oriented. So I was already thinking like, hey, I was stuck at a kind of dead end, uh, management, supervisory, uh, job. And I was like, I'll just get my MBA now. And there I was actually able to really kind of get my first foray into more marketing and, and like real life marketing. So during our mba, we actually had a lot of, uh, you know, in the community, real life projects. And I got to do marketing for a movie called Jayhawkers about Wilt Chamberlain with a director who ended up writing, uh, Black Klansman, who, you know, and won an Oscar for it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker C: Yeah, I gotta, I, um, I was, uh, I helped sell their DVDs on Facebook when Facebook ads were just really like cranking and coming out. And it was just a gold rush. And it was a really exciting time. And um, I kind of immediately found that was my passion. And the 10 years plus since then has been, you know, I started at a small nonprofit where I wore all the hats, I bet, similar to a lot of operators. I was doing everything you could possibly imagine. You know, business development, client, uh, relations, events marketing, uh, you name it, I was doing it. And then I just slowly started specializing a little bit more. Then I had about eight, nine years at big enterprises like H and R Block, Bunzl and uh, Rexell. So I got A lot of larger team experience, specializations in digital marketing. Really got ah, some really great opportunities to keep developing myself as a leader and a manager and then I was looking for a director role. I somehow stumbled onto this law firm ad and the rest is kind of history. I've been here for two and a half years and it is just the perfect match. And I've loved every second of working at a law firm and especially this law firm of Angel Reyes and Associates.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's in, you know, it's interesting how people find their way into this space. As a non lawyer, you know me as well, and once we realize like we're dealing with the nicest, smartest people that are just missing this piece, this skill that we happen to have that they don't have and how, you know, we can make magic together when we put the right, we find the right people to work with. It's really incredible. And you and I were talking about a little bit before we jumped down about jiu jitsu and your black belt and I did ah, have a chance to look up the movie that I was telling you about. It's um, a guy named Mickey, uh, Kelly.

Speaker C: Mickey Kelly.

Speaker A: It's the. Sean Patrick Flannery is the actor I believe. And so uh, it's called Born a Champion and you might want to check that out. But Born a Champion, Yeah, it really was interesting. Like the guy just puts his arm on you and like you're done, like he's going to, he's got, he's gonna beat you. But um, you know, what's it. Tell me a little bit what it's like to get that black belt in jiu jitsu and how that sort of like helped your life and your world and how you deal with people.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it took a while for sure. Uh, it is a challenging sport. It is a sport that most people that started either quit the first day or quit after they get that first belt. It is very rare that people keep going with it because it is both hard mentally and physically. But I just found it just a wonderful challenge. It could be something I could excel at even in my 30s and now 40s. I'm a very competitive person. I am. I uh, and I also take work really seriously. So to have this kind of escape after work and to be able to go have some community and like chess, I guess, you know, it's just this mental challenge of good days, bad days. It's just there's always something to learn, which I love about a sport. You know, it's not a, it's not ping. I won't say ping pong, but you know, it's not a basic sport that you kind of master in a, ah, in a small amount of time. Jiu Jitsu is something people practice for their whole lives and still don't master the entire entirety of it. So uh, and I'll just say too, it, it's helped me and not only be able to manage mental health and being able to clear my mind and focus, but you know, just having that patience in business and relationships as well. It's just a, a very patient and deliberate sport where you need to learn. And the more you manage your energy, the more you manage your focus and strategy, the more you succeed versus just rushing and trying to do worrying about the future past, you're just in the present and that's something beautiful about it.

Speaker A: And it seems like Jiu Jitsu of. And you could say this about a number of them, but Jiu Jitsu in um, specifically I find you're sort of reacting right, like you're, you're getting information and then you're like someone's grip on you and then you're reacting to it and just keep reacting. But I think maybe it's that addition by subtraction or maybe go slow to go fast. But you know, how does it impact, you know, how you run a team and how you think about marketing?

Speaker C: Oh, uh, that's a great question.

Speaker A: That's my job.

Speaker C: Yeah, let me to second on that one. Yeah, you know, I like the go slow to go fast. Like what I do with my team is real. A lot of investment upfront. I think that's a lot of Jiu Jitsu as well as learning the fundamentals and basics and giving you the tools to then be able to be more creative and diverse later. And that's what. And I have a young team as well. So just the prep, the plan, the training, getting everyone aligned, getting everyone the scaffolding, um, is a term I really like, is to be successful.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And if I can, I can do that. Just like in Jiu Jitsu then people start, you know, their talents, their creativity really come out of that and they can be much more impactful to our business. I can delegate and trust and just know that they're going to be able to deliver to the expectations and levels that you know, we want. So just that prep the planning, the training and then that gets them the speed later. And it's just like in Jiu Jitsu, like you move, it's. Everything's Moving so fast that you, you just, you don't know what to do when you're early on in a jiu jitsu career. But later on, everything's slowing down and everything, and then all these creative options open up. And that's what I really want to do for my teammates.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of like, new is exciting and there's like, I'm chasing top line revenue or, uh, I'm chasing AI. Yet I think that maybe that slow down in thinking about where you really want to be and how you're going to get there might be a big part of a marketing design. Yeah, that was definitely not the same twice.

Speaker C: Okay. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I think, you know, I, Due to my business background, I think I'm, I'm a huge proponent of the Pareto principle, where you're just honing in on that 20% of your inputs and, uh, what you do that can get the 80% of your outcomes. And it's that discipline to be able to. I, you know, find what those are usually. That's usually easy to see. Like, okay, I need. These are the things that move the needle. This is where I should spend my time and then have the discipline to be able to look at the other 80% that, you know, you're juggling the other 15, 20 things and just be able to go, I'm going to either stop, pause, halt that entirely, but a lot of people find that really, really hard. Everybody wants to be chasing everything new and just being able to go, no, I have a roadmap, I have a strategy, and I'm going to stick to it, because if I stick to this, I'm going to become amazing at these four things. I'm going to get more outcomes. I need to be able to see the bigger picture. Uh, but if I keep. If like dogs chasing cars, if I just keep chasing. The thing I saw, I heard at the conference and there are five things I saw on Instagram today, you're. Every time you make that decision to chase after one of those things, you're saying no to something that was actually probably more impactful to your business.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then what are the things that you see get broken by folks that aren't following a plan, aren't looking at the four key components and sticking with them. Because you interview people on your Lawyer Rumble podcast and you have enough experience. I mean, you're hearing things of like, what's not working, what's breaking, what are you seeing happening kind of these days?

Speaker C: Well, the, Our, our podcast is pretty New I'm only about seven episodes in, uh, and we talk a lot. Uh, we haven't done a lot of marketing, actually content, even though I'm a marketer. So. But I'd say greater themes of what I'm hearing. I think a lot of people, you probably had this, uh, you know, AI everything but struggling with how to really deploy it and you know, into your official processes, use it the right way instead of just using it as some email tool. I think people struggle with that, especially the smaller teams. You know, you're already got enough on your plate and everyone's telling you to use AI, but is that the right choice? You know, I think again, it kind of comes back to this central theme here of prioritization and being able to just hone in on things that are, you need to hone in on and maximizing those versus continuing to get distracted. I think of this, uh, Jeff Bezos quote a lot where his COO at one point basically told him, like, your ideas are going to ruin this company. Because he kept throwing ideas in there, kept throwing ideas and their people kept getting distracted and they weren't getting things done. And that's something I am, um, reg, you know, I believe in a lot.

Speaker A: And then, yeah, I was going to say, so then, then what's the play like? You know, you're the cmo, you've got people, ah, throwing ideas at you all the time and let's go this direction, that direction, everything. And you've got to, you've got to steer this ship. And I do this with my CMO too. Like I have all these great ideas and we have a system for it. But like, what's, how do you manage that and run that so that you guys don't veer off course.

Speaker C: So what we deploy and luckily I have an amazing CEO and CEO that I report to that are behind it. But it's kind of a cascading strategy where beginning the year, we have a, you know, year strategy, real big picture. You know, here's our goal, here's how we're going to reach them, here's all the big tenets of that. Uh, we walk and get full alignment at the executive level and make sure everyone's on board, including my team. Everyone gets it, everyone sees it. And then, and then it proceeds into quarterly updates where we kind of look back at the performance and again, reiterate, here's the strategy if we are going to make any tweaks. If not, if everything's going to plan, like how we're, you Know, it's a cadence that we are sticking to the plan. Here's what we're going to do the next quarter. Here's what we're going to do the next quarter. And then it's a very deliberate way to ensure that everyone's on the same page. We don't forget what we're set out to do. So, uh, I'm in weekly meetings as well. And again, I use all these opportunities to remind, you know, my executives and who I report to, what we're doing, the strategy and some of the results. So we're always in lockstep versus, you know, maybe we have a strategy at one point and then we just start going any direction that pulls us for the rest of the year, which I think is easy. It's really easy to do, you know, to get distracted, to go, oh, this is happening, or this, this law firm's doing that, this operator's doing that. Instead. It's. It's very disciplined and I know we'll get more by sticking to it. So it's just keeping that communication open and ensuring that everyone's always aligned so when new ideas come, we can all go, that's an interesting idea. We're going to log it. We're going to put it in a backlog.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, you know, possibly it could become into next quarter. Maybe it's something that we look at next year, but, uh, it's given a little bit of thought and discussion, but unless it's in that quadrant of super urgent, super important, we got, we have to say no to something that we, you know, and we have to say yes to this. Which, yeah, I think it's more rare than it is that we actually do. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, luckily.

Speaker C: Yeah. Just putting in that work to ensure that everyone's aligned all the way through a given year.

Speaker A: Yeah. A lot of the ideas I come up with are relevant to the existing goals for the quarter. So it's not about a crazy idea of like, oh, we're going to do a, uh, Steve Fretson, you know, conference, and it's going to take us completely off track of what we're doing. It's usually like, all right, this is an improvement to our newsletter. This is an improvement. We have to be that lawyer community. Here's an idea for the community. Why don't we add a job board, right. Where people can post the jobs for their firms, people can add resumes. Like, that adds to what we're already doing and building and creating. So I think that's, you know, that's the important differentiator too is like, are the ideas relevant to add flavor and value to the existing goals for the quarter, for the year, or are they completely out of left field? And they're all, I think, important to have, but some are honestly, you know, easily executable within the moment. Hey everybody. Your next big client might call at 8pm on a Saturday night. The question is, who's picking up? With Lex reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way, around the clock. And right now, Be that Lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.LexReception.com partners BethatLawyer to claim your offer. That's www.LexReception.com/partner be that lawyer. Hey everybody. Steve Fretson here. And@lawyer.com they don't just market law firms, they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they're building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That's lawyer.com check them out today with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings IE prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings IO when they want rankings, traffic and cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation at Rankings IO today. Something I've been talking a lot about lately and I've been speaking on it and I want to kind of riff with you for a minute on is what separates a real personal brand from a firm brand or self promotion. Like I think lawyers are afraid to act self promoting. Yet it's important for lawyers to understand that they are their own brand. How do you kind of break through that and more?

Speaker C: How do I, uh, convince them or show them the value? Yeah, like what?

Speaker A: Yeah, like how? Like, I mean there are lawyers that, you know, you've got obviously a name partner, right, angel who you know is the brand, right? I mean, sort of represents the brand. Yet there may be attorneys in the firm that you know, need to be out and getting their own brand built because that brings business in and they say, you know, people don't buy firms, they buy lawyers in other cases. Uh, right, the, you know, Morgan and Morgan, I mean nobody's working with John Morgan, you know, yet he's out in front and center and people think, you know, oh, uh, that's the guy I want to work with.

Speaker C: Well, I would say one I think is really not done or not invested enough is just the education to be able to go show these attorneys like we have. I think we're approaching 50 attorneys now at the firm and just being able to show them that, the mindset that, hey, we got a strong brand and firm and we're, you know, a whole marketing department that's out there getting new cases that our clients still look for you, they search for you, they go to your webpage on our, our website, which is great. We try to build your brand there as well. But they want to have confidence in you, you know, they want to see that you're a real person, a real brand of something to offer. So having building out your LinkedIn, building out some of these brand assets, you know, you as your brand is really helpful to the client experience. It's helpful to our company as a whole. And then, you know, not to say that, you know, lawyers change jobs, but it's always too like a good investment in you as a, uh, individual and brand because, you know, there's going to be another opportunity down the road or maybe another firm or looking out for yourself and your own brand for the longer term. Don't just think here, hey, we got enough cases here. But what about being able to tell your story, who you are, what kind of lawyer are to, you know, prospective recruiters, uh, prospective, you know, companies that you may move to in your future. So you can't, you gotta start investing, you know, start today. You know, if you haven't done anything, you don't have a LinkedIn, and that's okay. Start today. And the investment that goes into building that brand is not, it's not a hundred hours a week, you know, like being able to educate these attorneys that, hey, you can just a couple few hours that, uh, dedicated hours a month that you can put into your brand and it can really move the needle and do a lot for you long term.

Speaker A: Yeah, and that's where I like to, I like to put and bring, you know, business development and branding into play. You know, even firms that have big budgets for advertising and bringing in leads. I think it's important to go out and develop proper relationships, be known in the legal community and outside of who can refer you, right? You've got a, a bunch of, of nurses and doctors and chiropractors and people that, you know, are thinking about you when they have an injured person that needs representation. And then, you know, not just being on LinkedIn to your point, uh, but how are you showing up on LinkedIn? Are you seeing it as, as a big minefield of wasted time, which it is for many, or, uh, are you trying to like, be productive in how you educate and inform and put yourself out there in a positive way, not just as a self shameless, self promoter? Right. So I think the combination of business development and branding and marketing, that's really what I think every lawyer needs to. And that the people listening to the show, by the way, Elliot, like that, they get it. Like they're, they're uh, they're listening to the show very specifically because this is what they want their future to be. Right. They want to be that lawyer and not have to rely on a firm to feed them the work. Now, is it great to be a team player? Of course. You know, but I think lawyers also need to, you know, look out for themselves too.

Speaker C: I agree, I agree. And I mean the data that we look at, I mean, we analyze search behavior for our current clients, prospective clients, they're looking you up. And don't you want to control that narrative? Don't you want to tell your story and be able to show who you are and why you're a great option for them? It's a lot easier, I think, than, uh, some attorneys think.

Speaker A: Yeah. And help me understand too. There's, there's firm marketing and lawyer marketing, and then there's the actual client experience. And I don't know that they always align. What do you do at your firm to make sure that what you guys are representing in the marketing that you put out there is actually experienced in the people that reach out and say, hey, I've got this terrible accident injury situation. And you want them to have an experience that will not only benefit them, but also make sure that referrals come in after.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I'm title, you know, my, I report to our CEO. So I am, I am very in the weeds of what operationally we're doing with client experience. You know what, on the back end of how we're investing in technology and people and processes, so, you know, clients are getting updates, clients are getting empathetic communication, clients are being able to connect with an attorney whenever they need and getting a call back within a couple of hours. So I am really in the weeds of seeing that huge focus of our brands that you, uh, know, I take it with marketing to be able to kind of translate that into our messaging. So hope, you know, those two things align. So when we say that client experience and getting updated and all the investment that will do into you, your story, Bill, being able to build up your case, get you the right treatment, make you whole makeup. These are real, you know, these are real things that we can deliver on the back end. Cause if we can make sure those things align, then like you said, we want to maximize that ability for, you know, client experience equals a uh, greater likelihood of referrals. And their friends, their families, their, you know, we want them to be able to confidently recommend us. So I think it's really, really important that those things play nice because if you, if we just, if we say one thing in marketing, we're not delivering the other thing, we won't get referrals and we will get uh, some terrible backlash in the reviews and one stars out there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, maybe that's kind of a good, good place to sort of not wrap up, but kind of get near the ending is to talk about what are the top three things that you're, that you're doing for your firm that you would recommend others do to ensure that you're staying relevant and positive online. Like you mentioned, you know, you want five star reviews, not one star reviews. So there's things that are maybe more relevant today than they were five years ago or two years ago because of AI. But what, how are you, like, what are you guys doing to make sure that your, that your marketing is tip

Speaker C: top one of our biggest areas, just building out our content and our expertise online. You know, we, when I started here about two and a half years ago, our website more or less had 200 some pages and 200 pages and a lot of them weren't educational. Um, we weren't investing in ways to tell search engines, engines to tell AI crawlers that we are actual experts in these practice areas and we actually know a lot about Texas law in these specific practice areas. So in the last two and a half years we've done a significant amount of uh, investment in AI workflows with human in the loop to really scale that up. So we've just hit 1200 uh, pages on our website. We build these things called content clusters, but essentially a, a collection of blogs or articles and tools to be able to help our audience see that we are say, experts in car insurance when it comes to accidents. So that has been a huge, huge investment for us. I think it's uh, it's becoming even more pivotal for brands to be able to do more than, you know, just a basic what to do after a car accident. You have to invest in ways to educate these AI systems That you are, you are, you know, an expert. You, you do have an authority here and that takes, that takes time and that takes a lot of resources. And luckily here I've gotten a, a team that's grown. But um, I think with the uh. Right. Strategic partnerships with agencies, whatever, I think that's a big differentiator for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. So content creation, not just for the firm, but I'm gonna put it out there that individual lawyers need to consider writing blogs, writing articles, starting to like, put themselves out there. Because in the old days it was, it was SEO and if you weren't getting business from someone doing a Google search, like let's say you're a corporate attorney at a mid market firm, what do you care about that? Uh, well now I'm looking to refer business and I, in Iowa and I don't know somebody and I start speaking into my microphone about the kind of lawyer I'm looking for in Iowa. It's going to put all that together and put out somebody who's actually created content around the subject area. So everybody needs to start thinking individually, uh, and as a firm about how you're utilizing content creation to build your brand and also get found. I think it's, it's evolving to where I don't think anybody can just ignore it anymore. Is that kind of your take?

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, and to build off that too, we want not only you know, do it for the search engines, but we're also thinking deeply of how do we leverage this content into automated flows and ways to get the, this type of content to our current clients and prospective clients to be able to again throughout their journey, reinforce that they have the, they have the right team on it and you know, just signing them and then not talking to them, um, for weeks, months on end, that is the opposite of what we're going for. We're, we're looking to give them updates, we're looking to send them texts and emails with links of helpful information about their case. And some of the things that we're working on help them understand some of the complexities, help them be patient with us because you know, it's, it's not like some of these uh, fraudulent ads out there where an AI lawyer is going to give you cash in two days. You know, it's, yeah, yeah, that's not how it works. But yeah, how do we tell that to our clients to get them in a really comfortable, patient place and confidence that they have a, an awesome team behind the scenes. But how are they ever going to know that if we're not continuing to tell that story.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Building that trust, setting expectations, making sure there are no surprises. I think that's the scariest thing for anybody that's dealing with a lawyer is surprises. And when you implement properly and on board properly.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And everybody knows what they need to do and how they need to collaborate to get this across the finish line, then everybody has a better experience and happier wrapping up. Elliot, what's your big mistake?

Speaker C: I would say my big mistake in my career, and even personally is just communication issues. Just. I've always been operating in this kind of idealistic, kind of egotistical. If I just work hard, I'll get the things that I want. I'll get that job. I want that girl. I'll get the girl. You know, And I. I should have learned from my. I think I told you one of my first jobs out of grad school was at a nonprofit. And early on someone told me, you can't. With, you know, going out there trying to get donations for the nonprofit, that you can't get what you want unless you ask for it. I can't just, you know, and I

Speaker A: can't wish it to happen.

Speaker C: I took that to heart for the job at the time, but I wish I would have, ah, that was a lesson that could have really helped me along my career. And I didn't really figure that out until probably my. My younger 30s, where I finally started being able to work on communicating with what it is I want, where I want to go, be able to go to a manager and be able to, uh, tell them exactly, hey, here's what I'm working for. Here's where I want to go. Can you help me? Can you help me get there? And what do I need to do to get there versus just expect people to read my mind.

Speaker A: Yeah, I feel so stupid.

Speaker C: It was a little.

Speaker A: All my. It's kind of human behavior, right, to not want to ask for things or maybe not feeling deserving of things when, you know, I talk to lawyers on a pretty regular basis about, you know, talking with their GC clients and their CEOs and the people that think they're wonderful about others, that they may be able to help in a similar fashion. And they're terrified of it because either they don't know how to ask, or they're just. They don't feel like they've deserved it when they do. And so we just, you know. And I think it's one of those things that once, like with your point, like, once you get over it. And once you've done it and you realize this is better benefiting everybody, it's like the floodgates opened up and then you have that, that, you know, remorse that you didn't start it earlier. Right. But I think that's a great lesson for everybody to just, you know, have a little bit of gumption or have, you know, have an approach that you can feel comfortable getting around to, ask for things to get ahead and, and everybody sort of wins in that situation. Yeah.

Speaker C: And I forget where I read this exactly, but I took it to heart. Was I, for instance, at least in business, I'm not going to go to my manager and go, I want this raise or I want this job title, whatever. It's, it's having a conversation of telling them where I want to be and can you help me get there?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: You know, it's, you're not forcing them into a corner. You're going, hey, like I'd love to make manager one day. What would I need to do to get there? What, what should I be doing this year? Help me visualize a path and maybe some milestones to where I can get there. And managers, leaders love to have that conversation versus you just blurt out, I, uh, want.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I want X dollars.

Speaker A: Yeah. Making demands. Right. That's a very different situation. So really great stuff. Hey, let's take a moment, thank our incredible sponsors and uh, you know uh, Chris, uh, Dreier and the guys at Rankings and pimcon. Massive party, great time, lots of education, Lex reception. Don't answer your phones. Let's get someone that's a pro to do it and make sure that the you're available 247 and of course lawyer.com, great directory. So Elliot, let's take a moment and promote your podcast and tell everybody the firm that you're with and again and give out any digits that you want to give out.

Speaker C: Thank you. So I'm the current host of Lawyer Rumble podcast. You can find us@lawyer rumble.com it is primarily a Texas based CLE event that we're doing every April. Um, but again we, we have a, ah, personal injury car, ah, and truck. Uh, experts from all over the country come and speak and attend. It's an awesome event and we, we're building a podcast brand around that as well to just really highlight, uh, you know, speakers and other thought leaders in the space of auto truck litigation. I work for a amazing Texas firm called Angel Reyes and associates. We're@reyeslaw.com that's what and then I'm on LinkedIn personally, Elliot Johnson, where you can always reach me and I like to talk, uh, everything marketing and legal marketing there as well. And I Steve, thanks again for having me on the podcast.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for coming on, sharing your wisdom and uh, and thank you everybody for hanging out with us for 30 and change and uh, hopefully picked up some good ideas on branding, marketing, um, you know, Less is More and all the different takeaways that you can get from our show today and beyond, um, helping you to be that lawyer, grow that book and own that future. And that's really what this show is all about. Thank you all. Thank you Elliot. Thank you everybody and we'll talk to you again real soon. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to Be that Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website, Fredsen.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.