Cooper Saunders: Turning Law Firm Marketing Into Measurable Revenue

Speaker A: Hey, everybody, before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be that Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business, developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We've got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today@, uh, bethatlawyer.com community. And other than that, please enjoy the show.

Speaker B: You're listening to Be that Lawyer. Uh, life strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretson.

Speaker A: Hey, everybody. Steve Fretson, welcome to the Be that Lawyer podcast. I'm always happy that you're here twice a week, always to help you be that lawyer. Confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And I know I've been, I've been, you know, pushing you guys on this Be that Lawyer community. I'm going to make one final play or push for it today. Listen, there's 85 soon to be a hundred lawyers, rainmakers, business developers, they're all in a room waiting for you to ask questions, to collaborate, to network. Does anybody know a lawyer that does this? Does anybody know a lawyer that does that? And there's business being had and there's advice being given and there's all my content there. Check it out. And bethatlawyer.com community, it's kind of a no brainer. It's like, I think we have it going for like 700 bucks a year, which is crazy. That's crazy. So be a little crazy. Get on Be that Lawyer Community. And check that out. Uh, Cooper, you heard of that Be that Lawyer community before, is the first

Speaker C: time I've heard about it before. I've been following you in a while on LinkedIn, so.

Speaker A: Okay. All right. I'm, um, not sure.

Speaker C: I always think it's so good. Yeah, I always think it's so good to be around other people trying to. I always say success leaves clues, you know, so other people have figured out things you're having issues with. All you gotta do is be connected with them.

Speaker A: Uh, I love it. I love it. Really appreciate that. I'm so excited to have you here. We had like a phenomenal, like intro meeting and then I was like, you have to be on my show. And you're like, okay, no problem. But let's jump in with the quote of the show. And this is something I Guess you find yourself saying all the time as a marketing genius, and that is get in front of the people who are in need of what you actually do. I threw the word. Actually, we didn't talk about that, but I like the word actually. It makes sense to me.

Speaker C: It's like, yeah, no, I like the remakes. It sounds great to me.

Speaker A: Okay, but tell us a little bit about that quote.

Speaker C: Yeah. So over the last eight years or so. So I started my, uh, company, um, nine years ago and worked with my first attorney eight years ago. And over the past eight years, we've generated, I think, a little bit over half a billion dollars for law firms. And all of that revenue has come from appearing for people who are searching really for what the law firm needs. Right. So there's all these kind of forms of marketing. There's so many things you can do. But, you know, if someone has a raging headache and I'm selling Advil, I just have to get in front of them. Right. I don't need to run ads to them. Maybe they might have a headache in the future. First things first, let's get in front of people who are searching for what your law firm does. Once we kind of capture that market, then we can expand into branding and stuff like that. But however people are looking for your services, we need to get in front of them and make it very apparent that we are top of mind and we're experts in the field.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. That makes a lot of sense. And I think that one of the challenges lawyers have, and we'll get into this in a few minutes, is they're really not great at targeting. Right. They know they're good at what they do. They know their prowess in court, or they know their prowess in their space, but actually figuring out who their targets are and then how to actually attract them in. Right. That's why you and I are in. In businesses. Right. I think if they knew all that, we'd probably be in trouble.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: But that's our goal is to help them with that. So, um, everybody, Cooper Saunders, owner of Wise Guys Digital Marketing, joining us today. Give us a little background how you came to be. You mentioned nine years ago, but what led you into this space and working with lawyers?

Speaker C: Yeah. So surprisingly, which I had no idea, really is lawyers get, I guess, for lack of a better word, screwed over more than any other industry with bad digital marketing actors. And I think that with digital marketing, you can just pop open a laptop, send a bunch of cold emails, sign someone up, and you don't really need to have, you know, a law degree or really anything, you know. And so lawyers will then hire these people that have great sales pitches and then get screwed into, say, oh, you know, digital marketing doesn't work. Right. And so I had a client, his name is Mo Leonard, and he's really active on LinkedIn. He called us, um, up because he's from Kansas City, went to mkc, and we're in Kansas City, and, okay, I've seen a lot of great reviews on you guys. Can you work with us? I said, well, of course. Uh, we did a great job for him. And he's like, hey, do you mind if I post about you guys on LinkedIn? And I'm like, sure, you know, thinking he might have, you know, four followers we'll come to. He had like 20,000, you know, and so from there, kind of snowballed, uh, people realizing, okay, you know, our biggest thing is what's the revenue coming out from us? You know, we see a lot of digital marketing companies. Here's your clicks, here's your increased rankings. Well, what's the revenue look like? You know, if you're paying us a dollar, how much are we giving back to you? And more of a partnership feel. And clients really like the way that we operate in that regard. So ever since then, we really enjoy working with lawyers and helping them and. And, uh, yeah, that's kind of the story.

Speaker A: How'd you come up with the name wise guy? Is that, ah, a mafia New York thing?

Speaker C: You know, what is that? I just went on the source and typed in smart man. And then three years down the road, I was meeting with an attorney in Chicago, and he's like, you know, I didn't. I don't know how or why I didn't connect it, but he was like, you know, that name's funny. I was like, yeah, you know, just wanted something rememberable. And. And, uh, then he enlightened me to the mafia connection. I was like, well, whatever, I guess,

Speaker A: okay, just go with it at that point, right? And, you know, look, everybody, everybody knows wise guys. And, uh, and then, you know, obviously it's. It is memorable. So you figured out, you figured out something people are going to remember. You may be different than, you know, so and so, you know, marketing agency or something.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I always say, you know, people pay their bills on time. You know what I mean?

Speaker A: Right, right. I like that. I like that a lot. All right, so there's something you and I talked about offline before we, we started the show and our, uh, initial meeting. And I think it was quite a bit about the research that's necessary to be done in order to be successful and right in line with what we're talking about targeting. So when you say lawyers should do more market research, what does that look like in a practice for a solo, small firm, midsize firm that maybe doesn't have a marketing department?

Speaker C: Yeah. So you know, here's a scenario that we run into all the time is whether it's a, ah, solo or it's a medium sized law firm, they're either wanting to create their law firm or set up a second or third office. Cause we see that a lot with lawyers. And, and let's say I'm in Dallas, right. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to place my law firm in Dallas because it's a lot of people and a lot of searches. But with that there's a lot of competition. And so what we find is instead of jumping into a market that's probably oversaturated or uh, has so much competition, can we look at other markets such as Arlington that might not have. Rather than having your law firm in Dallas where you're competing with 90 law firms, Arlington might have only four estate planning law firms or four criminal defense. And I can outrank those guys very easily. But you know, Dallas might take way longer. And so I think with the market research you have to look at the competition. What is the competition? How stiff you uh, is it also like how much, I guess how affluent is the market that you're trying to target? Especially the. Depending on, you know, what your services are and what kind of law firm you have? Um, and so I think the market research goes into identifying a pond you can dominate rather than being a minnow in an ocean or fighting an 800 pound gorilla. And I feel like a lot of lawyers just skip that part and just kind of hope and pray it'll be all right. When making that simple, you know, investigating that simple market research is, saves you.

Speaker A: But how does a lawyer do that? So let's say there's someone listening right now that's in Chicago. Right. And Chicago is saturated with personal injury. How do they start to evaluate the, the, maybe the tertiary markets or the markets that they should be hitting maybe outside of the, you know, the actual city or the loop.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So really the, the first thing you can do is kind of put your dream city or, or dream. It really, it starts with your goals. Right. So if you have a criminal defense, criminal defense law firm or want to start a Criminal defense law firm say, you know, I want to make 80,000amonth is how much I'm going to charge per case or client. Um, and then you're going to go and look at the suburbs, right. You're going to say, okay, I guess Aurora could work or you know, any of these suburbs. And you're going to hop on the Google keyword planner. Now this is free and a Google Ads account. Um, you can sign up for this, no issues. And what you want to do is type in, you know, criminal defense attorney or you know, three or four keywords and type in the cities that you're considering and see, okay. They'll give you how many searches there are a month, the competition and um, what the cost per click is and you can get an idea and what you're really looking for. There's low competition and at least you know, 5,000 searches a month and that'll give you plenty of um, business, especially if you dominate that market.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it's incredible to me and maybe I fall into this trap too from time to time, but that there's so much information out there and that uh, we're just sort of. Many people are just flying blind because they don't have one simple website that they could go into. Or even if they have it, like somebody just heard that you just said that and they're not going to do a thing with it. Like they need exactly what you just said and they just, you just told them exactly what to do and they're still not going to go like put that website in. So if you're listening right now and you're interested in what we're talking about, actually take action on it because that's at the end of the day. Right? That's the key. So I mean a lot of lawyers think their target market is maybe, you know, the end user, the business owner, or maybe the people that specifically need their services and maybe that. And they're not wrong. But how can they get more specific in targeting? Maybe it's not just about a, uh, divorce. Maybe it's a high end divorce. Maybe it's a high divorce, high end divorce in this and they're a business owner or whatever. Like how do people start to really get down into the nitty gritty with targeting?

Speaker C: Yeah. And so with the keyword research, I mean that's a massive, you know, undertaking. That's uh, a lot of time that we spend is the kind of the keyword research, but also that keyword planner that I just spoke about, you know, Whether you can utilize AI and say, hey, generate the top 10 keywords that I should be looking at for a family law firm. Plugging those, taking those and putting into the Google keyword planner and seeing. Okay, are there searches for this? We see a lot of people. If I have a, uh, you know, a wealthy divorce, I typically typing in divorce lawyer. Right. But still it's important to mention that on your website and have social proof of that because. Okay, ChatGPT and all these AI models are looking and seeing. Are they mentioning this? Google is still kind of more of a broad kind uh, of feel. But if you're asking ChatGPT, Claude, you know they're going to be.

Speaker A: I like those tools. I like those tools and I try to utilize them when I can. The one of the things I plan out with, with every lawyer I work with is trying to figure out like what, who their buyer Persona is and what their referral partner Persona is. And I think with marketing and business development, if you don't have that locked down where, you know, like for me it's just, it's highly ambitious lawyers. Right. We know that maybe they're at a particular point in their career where they've built up enough credibility. So it's not a first year lawyer maybe. Unless there's to be that lawyer community, which I wasn't going to mention again, I just did. Uh, but if it's like for my services directly, you know, it's probably someone that's five to 15 years in, highly motivated to grow. Maybe they're in a transition point where they're moving laterally, going out on their own, something that's going to inspire them to want to go the next level as opposed to me just saying. Steve, who do you work with? Well, I work with lawyers. Right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I'm targeting in house counsel. Right. I'm targeting people in, you know, all over the place that, that are just maybe not. So unpack that a little further if you would.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that there's a, with the, I like what you said about the referral marketing plan because a lot of attorneys and law firm owners don't have that. And, and I hope lawyers, we don't necessarily implement it, but we help lawyers. It's called the Dream 100 Strategy for Referral partners. And, and you don't have to have a hundred referral. Even if it's, you know, for some law firms, if you get 10 of these people to refer to you, they'll be so busy. Yeah. You know, but people think with referrals okay. You call them, touch them once. You know, they'll just magically start sending you referrals. Right. And so the Dream 100 strategy, it's in a book that is called, I think, the Ultimate Sales Machine. And he talks about, you know, monthly sending them, you know, touching base with them, sending them value, maybe sending them clients checklists, stuff to help them grow their kind of book of business, and then they'll eventually start sending you business. But I feel like that strategy for generating referrals is valuable as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think it leads into. Into, you know, let's look at our marketing, and how do we do that if we don't, if we're not personalizing it to people that are our targets? Right. So, like, people say, you know, personalization, and it's a buzzword. And, you know, what does meaningful personalization look like in legal marketing in your. In your estimation?

Speaker C: Yeah. And so what's really interesting and kind of what we were speaking about whenever we first spoke was, again, over the last eight years, I've been working with lawyers and my team, the more that AI and tech and everything has really been advancing. We're seeing the law firms that have personalization, maybe videos of the attorneys on the About Us page. The About Us page is the second most visited page on the website other than the homepage. Right. And so we're seeing that the attorneys that have a video, you know, hey, this is what we do. This is my team and really telling them their story and all that good stuff. Cease such an improved conversion rate from their website because people want to connect, right? They. They're tired of, you know, the AI slop. They want to say, okay, what is this attorney into? Oh, uh, that's actually him right there talking. And they almost feel like they know you already. And that's kind of the key of, uh, you know, these big intimidating law firms. Nine times out of ten, your law firm shouldn't be that you should be inviting, welcoming. You're not trying to intimidate these people. You're trying to get them to call you and give you money. And so we're seeing that make a big comeback and then also genuine as well. You know, people are like, oh, well, it doesn't look professional, or it doesn't, you know, you don't need to hire a big $15,000 videographer to create it. Right. Even a camera, um, like this, talking through what you do does well as well. So.

Speaker A: Ah, uh, right. Hey, everybody. Your next big client might call it 8pm on a Saturday night. The question is, who's picking up? With Lex reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, Be that Lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.LexReception.compartners/bethat lawyer to claim your offer. That's www.LexReception.com partners. Be that lawyer. Hey everybody. Steve Fretson here and@lawyer.com they don't just market law firms, they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they're building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, group growth. That's lawyer.com. check them out today with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings IE prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings IO when they want rankings, traffic and cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation at Rankings IO today. So we understand our targets, we understand, you know, the research involved. And then I know like lawyers are just really not. I wouldn't say all, but many of them are struggling with how to take that personalization of what, like you mentioned like Advil and Headache and put it together in the form of content. And I feel like content right now. I mean, somebody's gonna argue and say there's so much content on LinkedIn that why bother, right? There's also, you could say it about podcasts, like there's so many podcasts, 500 million podcasts or whatever the number is, why bother? Well, because there's room if you do it right. Right. There's things that are going to separate the wheat from the shaft and you just have to be on that side of it. So how do you take that personalization market research and convert it into content? That's going to get sticky.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that it's kind of back to the thousand true fans. Right? I mean, you don't need, you know, people think, oh, I need a million followers for this to be worth it. Well, no, if you have a thousand people that love you, that will buy anything you do, that's kind of the key and that's where you want to be. And generic content doesn't work. What Google and what everyone's looking for is how is this going to apply to my situation? Uh, and you need this. Right? So what do you want to do is say, okay, if I'm a business attorney and I want to deal with partnership disputes. Right. I want to. What you want to do is create a. I had a client in this industry. This is what happened, this is what we did, and this is how we resolved it. And here's the social proof of that that's going to stick. Rather than what should you do if you're in a partnership dispute, you know, and you're kind of just talking vague. We want, and Google and your potential clients want real world facts. What did you do? What's the case study? That's how you're going to stand out. And then adding social proof right next to all your call to actions is also big as well. But we don't. I'm talking about, I'm saying we, but I'm talking about, you know, potential customers, Google chat. We want concrete evidence that you know what you're doing.

Speaker A: All right. I'm an estate planning attorney in, uh, Arlington, Virginia.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: And I, I get it. I need, you know, case study, social proof. But I need to create content that's going to target and achieve the result of getting found and getting inbound calls. So give me an example of how that would work in, from a SEO, uh, pay per click, um, AI search perspective, as well as how the content would convert.

Speaker C: Yeah. So we're seeing a lot of searches about, about crypto, bitcoin, all this stuff. Right. Should I have Bitcoin in my state plan? How do I do it? Right. So what you want to do, this is just, for example, I don't know if you're an estate planning attorney and you want to deal with this, but what you want to do is say, create a content. Should Bitcoin be in your. Or, uh, should cryptocurrency be in your estate plan? Here's why. Right. And then the content is talking about, you know, we had a client, this is what they did. He maybe passed away. No one knew his code to his Bitcoin wallet. This was a big issue. Don't let this happen to you. Here's how we can help. Call to action. Right. So it's all these scenarios of, rather than just creating content, you want to answer questions that people are searching. Right. You don't want to just create content to create content. You want to create content to help solve these issues that people are searching for. Answer that question and then show them, you know, you know what you're talking about.

Speaker A: Yeah. And the consequence of the Lawyers right now who are not creating content. Right. They're just sticking to their guns. I'm a lawyer and I'm meant to do lawyering. I'm not meant to do business development, marketing, content creation. Where are they going to find themselves with what's going on right now with search engine optimization and also with the AI search?

Speaker C: You know, I think that it's, you know, all the lawyers that I speak with, I really love their clients. Right. Like I love my clients. I love lawyers. I think that the biggest thing that you look for is I see as kind of like a moral obligation to get in front of people who need what I do so they don't get in front of someone that is writing content, but is terrible at what they do. Right. And so I think whenever you're looking at all of this stuff, referrals are great. I always, uh, people think I'm anti referrals or anti any other form of marketing. You know, you want it to be almost like a stool where you've got five legs. If one leg comes up short, one month, you're not in a bad spot. Right. I had a client call me the other day and say, well, potential client. He said, my biggest referral partner, his son is starting an estate planning law firm. And all of the referrals I'm getting have dried up now. Right. And so I think that you're. If you don't do it, it's. And you don't have to create a ton. Right. Quality over quantity, that's going to be the key. And if not, you'll just kind of be floating around and just kind of what people are right now.

Speaker A: I mean, again, if you're in the later, later stages of your career and you've built a name and a reputation for yourself and you've developed, uh, the business development or strategic partners that refer you to content creation may end up being less important. But I'm of the ilk that if you can do business development relationships, you know, find those referral partners, you have the business coming in and then how you're getting in front of new people and staying top of mind. And that marketing, it just doubles down on, um, the fact that you're building your brand with these relationships because now they're seeing you all the time, they're reading your stuff and it's continue to reinforce like you are the man in your or woman in your or person in your space.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's just all about staying top of mind. Right. And do I recommend an attorney sit around writing Content all day. Not necessarily. You know, you can hire people to do that. You know, if you charge, uh, $300 an hour, $200 an hour, don't spend your time doing it, you know, $40 an hour task. Right. You know, put the bullet points, have some type it up, send it to you, you approve it, and then take it from there. Right. But it's all about staying top of mind. Email marketing, social media, and then also letting Google and ChatGPT know, you are the man. And it's one of those things where now more than ever, you have to tell Google, ChatGPT, you know, all these, you are the man. And it's kind of, it's not natural, you know? Yeah, yeah, right. You know, but now it's important to say, I'm the man. And here's why.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Or woman. Or for. You know what I mean?

Speaker A: Yes, yes, we. Yeah. All right. So that gives a lot of, A lot of context there. The other thing that I think we might want to just, just touch on before we sort of wrap up with our last question is, you know, content creation is great. And I see people speaking and writing and doing things and maybe not really leverage, leveraging or, or harnessing that content to the degree that they should be. Talk to that for a moment.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that there's so much help. Right? There's, there's people that do everything. You know, I've got a client that every Saturday he hops on a thing, uh, like this, and he just talks through stuff. Right. He sends it to assistants, virtual assistants. He says, hey, create a blog topic about this. Kind of. Use my key points. Create 10 social media posts about different topics that I hit on and using one core piece of content and then, you know, delegating it and using different points of that is super important. Um, you know, it doesn't have to be this monumental task. Right. I think that with SEO and Google has all this stuff, I mean, you want to focus on being a lawyer. You'll find people that know what they're doing and delegate to them. Because again, they're like, I've got lawyers who are like, I don't know where I find the time of the day. It's like, you're really not supposed to.

Speaker A: No, no. I mean, yeah, I'm talking. I'm harping on this all the time. And so whether you're spending $20 a month on ChatGPT to help you craft and create content and make sure that you're, that you're putting in your two Cents, like, don't let it do it for you. Do it with. Do it together. Like. Like if you had a professional editor working with you versus having it just create content that you're not really a part of. And then people can tell. I'll tell you, people are becoming very astute at identifying crap and things that are just being put out there just so that you're putting something out there. So really put some effort into it. Little effort into it. And then I just know that, like, when I write an article, I want to publish it somewhere. I want to take it, repurpose it on LinkedIn. I want to then maybe create some videos around it like this. Um, I did a, um. It was called, um, climbing Karma Mountain. And I posted that in an article above the Law. That inspired me to then do a presentation, which I did last week, which we had, you know, 50 attorneys come to. And, you know, and then it becomes, you know, something that I utilize in, you know, in video form. You know, I can break up that. That webinar, you know, into multiple pieces. So repurpose. Repurpose. Repurpose being sort of an important part of marketing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, any final thoughts about what lawyers should be thinking about and doing to increase and improve marketing before we get to our last question?

Speaker C: Just social proof, case studies. Grab examples. Even if it's, you know, just be able to prove what you're saying. You know, I always say, I'm from the show me state. I'm from Missouri. You have to show me, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: That's what all your clients are saying. Show me. It doesn't have to be pretty. You got someone coming in, even if it's a, uh, it doesn't have to put on your website. But here's the case study and here's the testimonial. You know, just gather as much as you can, obviously, and get as many reviews as possible.

Speaker A: I love it. I love it. All right, well, here we go. Cooper, it's your chance. What's Cooper's big mistake?

Speaker C: I think the biggest thing, biggest mistake really early on is I forgot I'm in the people business. Right. I think, oh, I'm a digital marketing. I own a digital marketing company. Well, no, every industry, you're in the people business and understanding people and understanding their needs and being able to solve those. And the way you go about it is maybe through law firm or maybe through digital marketing company, but at the end of the day, we're all in the people business and understanding those individual needs and how you're Going to solve them via law firm is the key.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really, really well put. And, uh, it's just, I was watching, I watched the again, the movie, the founder. Seen that movie, McDonald's. Oh, my God. And, and he's sitting down with that, with the banker and he's like, you think you're in the burger business, you're not. You're in the, you're in the real estate business.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Blew your mind.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Holy mackerel. Um, really great stuff. All right, let's take a moment, thank our amazing sponsors. We've got lawyer.com. if you're not in that directory, you're not getting found. Uh, we've got Lex reception. Picking up your own phone, for shame. You know, allow professionals to do it and get you 24 7. Make sure those calls get in and through to you. And of course, pimcon coming up in October. First class experience for all PI firms that want to go and check that out. I was there last year. Nikki Glazier was their keynote. Oh, my God. She trashed lawyers for like 15 minutes straight. It was the most fun and the most uncomfortable. I've been in 15 minutes in a long time. Cooper, people want to get in touch with you. They really enjoyed hearing, uh, your approach to things. They, they're tired of getting taken for a ride with these, you know, these agencies that promise and don't deliver. What are the best digits for them to reach you?

Speaker C: Yeah, so typically, just texting me works best. Or calling me, my cell phone is 816-708-0814. Or just shoot me an email@cooperiseguysdm.com. yeah, awesome.

Speaker A: Uh, man, I really appreciate, appreciate you coming on the show, sharing your wisdom and you know, what I really try to accomplish in this show, and I think you helped me do that today, was to give, you know, some big, some kind of, some big 30,000 foot views. But then let's get into the weeds and, and you know, you talk about case studies, you talk about social proof, you talk about, you know, research and actual websites you can use. This is all the kind of things that lawyers should be taking notes and not when you're driving, obviously, but, uh, but, you know, really taking into account because ultimately that's, you know, that's what's going to help you to be that lawyer. Confident, organized, and a skilled. Thanks, Cooper. Appreciate you being here.

Speaker C: Thank you so much.

Speaker A: All right, thank you, everybody. Take care, be safe and well and we will talk again so very soon.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website, Fredsen.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out Today's Show Notes.