Ellen Cohen: How High‑Performing Lawyers Can 10x Their Impact Without 10x the Hours

Speaker A: Hey, everybody. Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the be that Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business, developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We've got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today@, uh, bethatlawyer.com community and other than that, please enjoy the show.

Speaker B: You're listening to Be that Lawyer. Uh, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here's your host, Steve Fretson.

Speaker A: Hey, everybody, Steve Fretson. And welcome to Be that Lawyer. I am just so happy that you're here. If you're hearing this for the first time, I want to welcome you to the show.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: This is a show helping you to be that lawyer. Confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Twice a week, every week for the last six, almost seven years, we are here to help you figure out marketing, business development, time management. How can we help relieve stress? Anything and everything that's going to help you be your best self, live your best lawyer's life. I, um, I'm very fortunate that I continue to get incredible people referred to me and people that find me to be on the show. And then I have a process of selection where we meet and we talk and we figure out, you know, is this a good fit? And today is an absolute perfect fit. You're going to get so much out of Ellen. How are you, Ellen?

Speaker C: Good afternoon, uh, good morning, good evening. I'm great. Thank you.

Speaker A: Now, here's our funny story. So you noticed when we met that I had the autographed Michael Jordan jersey behind me. Then you totally forgot about it. And then you sent me your quote of the show and I'll say the quote and then let people figure out who it is. Here it is. I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games, 26 times. I've been trusted to take, uh, the game winning shot and missed. I failed over and over and over again in my life, and that's why I succeed. All right, I guess that's Scotty Pippen. No, it's my. All right, it's Michael Jordan. So, you know, I think that's such an incredible quote. What do you love about it and what does it kind of all mean to you?

Speaker C: You know, obviously it was my quote. But when you read it to me, it just gave me chills, you know, because Michael Jordan, obviously the goat, the greatest of all time, you know, he's obviously like the top player. And yet he missed so many shots. And it wasn't the thing that kept him down. It was the thing that helped him succeed. And it's about reframing and rethinking about when things happen to us that they're not bad, they're learning, they're scientific experiments. We run them again and again until we get excellent at it. And that's what makes us great. That is what leads us to success. And that's what I love about it.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's a book I wrote, uh, network called the Attorney's Networking Handbook. And I think I start the book by saying no one has ever made more mistakes networking than I have. You know, and I talk about the, you know, the 10,000 hour rule. I don't know if it was 10,000 hours, but I mean, I missed every family dinner and I was out every night. And my wife's like, where are you? I'm like, I'm building a business, honey. But I had no idea what I was doing initially and, uh, made a lot of mistakes and learned and improved. And eventually I was teaching people how to network. But it's really important that lawyers recognize that business development, growing a law practice, even being in house. Right. Is very, very challenging. And that there's going to be mistakes. And I think it's really about how we learn from them, um, that kind of defines us so. Well, everybody, like I said, you're in for a treat today. Um, I've got Ellen Cohn. She's with ebc, coaching and consulting. And give us a little bit of your background, how you came to be. I know you have a heavy in house, uh, experience.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. I actually started my career way, way back. I started it in, um, litigation. I did two years just going way back and beginning my, uh, career. But most of my career was in house. And I was able to follow my passion and my dream. And I ended up being lucky enough to end up in Hollywood working for the major studios. I worked my first job was at what is now Sony Pictures Television. I worked at Disney, I worked at Fox. I worked at a television group that was at Microsoft for a short time. And so most of my career has been doing that. I've also represented clients, but I've been an executive coach, a leadership coach, to be accurate. For it was sort of concurrently, but for almost 16 years at this point, so. And I have a master's in organizational development and leadership, and so it's my passion.

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. So tell me what your day to day is with EBC coaching. Like, what are you doing? What's your day job?

Speaker C: So I work with a lot of different clients, but I would say the preponderance of my clients are lawyers. Oddly enough, they choose me maybe because I'm a woman lawyer, but they choose me probably because I'm a lawyer. But I work with a lot of lawyers, whether they're in firm or in practice. And we talk about all the issues that come up for the leadership issues within a law firm or within a studio, uh, within a company. It's not the rainmaker issues. We deal with the things that actually provide the opportunity for them to be rainmakers. We deal with influence, we deal with impact, we deal with time management, prioritization, delegation, how to have better presence and confidence.

Speaker A: But that sounds exactly like what rainmakers are dealing with, right? They don't know how to delegate automate. They struggle with leadership, they struggle with delegation and, and uh, time management and, you know, and balancing everything, which is really, really challenging. And yes, getting there is also. Is also quite difficult. So what are you. What would you say are the biggest challenges and stressors that you're seeing in lawyers right now?

Speaker C: I think classic ones, obviously, is the pressure for billable hours. I mean, that has not changed how many hours? And just getting that out and then how do you also build a practice? How do you become that rainmaker when you're so busy doing the day to day and then, uh, doing a lot more with a lot less. You know, there are fewer people, there are fewer assistants. Obviously the insurgent of AI and using AI in lieu of a person. There are billable hour issues. I mean, just actually the functioning of putting your billable hours down and the stress of high performance, high expectations, I don't think any of it's changed. I just think that it's that constant pressure.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you think, uh, and I don't want to have an AI conversation because we're all kind of sick of it, but I mean, do you think. I mean, I'm seeing AI firsthand taking some weight off of me. When I. Even when we were just starting, we were talking about how text messes our up our brains, and I was like, well, now I just asked ChatGPT, how do I resolve this zoom issue or how do I resolve this Mac issue that I can't figure out how to get a Setting. Right. It could be automating my email, it could be automating my scheduling and all these, you know, tools like that. Are you seeing it create stress or you're seeing it relieve some stress or both?

Speaker C: Both. I think, uh, one of the things that I've been hearing from a lot of my clients is that their clients are using AI and their clients are, you know, trying to do the legal work and then asking their lawyers to validate or justify or defend their own work. And that becomes very stressful. And you have a client who thinks that they now know more than the lawyer because AI has given them a perspective. I mean, this is sort of outside the scope of my work. It's just the uh, hearing from the clients about, you know, it can actually expedite, but there are certain things, you know, with any new technology that creates stressors.

Speaker A: Yeah, right on. And so, you know, one thing that I wanted to hit you up with was really about, you know, delegation, time management. And lawyers, I find, often treat like every assignment, every, you know, billable hour, every project they work on with equal urgency and deserving of maximum effort. Which is great, except it's not practical when we're trying to get them to, you know, value high level work over the, maybe the stuff that's they're just over engineering because they're perfectionists. So what's your take on that? Is it how do they sort of see that and then recognize it?

Speaker C: Well, I think you just sort of highlighted some of the issues like perfectionism and the work. And so it's about how are they going to manage that workflow that comes in. They have to really think about and um, just, you know, mentioned it too. But how do you prioritize what is absolutely necessary, what is urgent, what needs to be done right now, what is in normal workflow? What is, you know, the thing that can be delegated? What is it that, you know that everything has to be dropped and you have to really like, you know, it's a five alarm fire. So it's really thinking about. The lawyer has to really take the time and pause and think about what's on their plate, what's coming in and not be distracted by the first thing in is the first thing they have to handle. Uh, and there's also sort of like that attention span thing that we all have these days, you know, when we get that inbox ping, right, you get distracted. It's the same thing. So when your work comes in, are you being distracted by first in line? And what is going to Be the best use of your time as that, you know, especially if you're charging, uh, you know, you're a high end lawyer, you're not a junior partner, you're a, you're a senior person, uh, you're not a junior associate, you're a senior partner. What is the best use of your time? What makes the most sense for you to be doing on your own or delegating out?

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think you know, looking year to your point, like start, you know, either the night before, start the day, look at what you have figure out like what's the big hairy beast of project that you need to get done today and is that something you start first or is that something you schedule time for? How do you figure out like what is a non negotiable for the day and what are things that maybe can be pushed and moved around and what's a good process for lawyers on that?

Speaker C: Well, I think the first thing is they really have to think about not being reactive. Uh, they can't be reactive about their work. They have to realize that they're servicing their clients but that's not necessarily the way that they can build the sustainable practice. They really have to think carefully and like I just said, just because somebody calls you, they're it's their problem feels urgent and important and necessary for them. But what is it for you, you know, and how would, what kind of gatekeepers do you have so you're not being interrupted? How do you protect your calendar, your time, your workflow, how are you thinking about your work? So you have to really look at what's coming in, what's a priority, what requires, what are the partners requiring because they're going to prioritize and they're going to be the ones that you have to pay attention to. But there are also going to be times when you have to say to them, hey, senior partner, I've got five things on my plate. You're asking me to deliver this right away, but that means I have to push this. Let's talk about this. Because that's going to impact and have a domino effect. So sometimes you actually have to ask the question and not be afraid of presenting the scenario and let them help you think through it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And at the part where you have to be aware of that, shout out

Speaker A: to our sponsor, Lex reception. Don't pick up your own phone. I think when lawyers answer their phone, I get it, they want to be seen as responsive. They love the clients, love that they pick up rub. I had a guy a uh, lawyer years ago. And I, every time I called him, he picked up. Now I'm not a high value client, I'm a small business and whatever, but he picked up the phone and I said, you pick up the phone every time I call. And I love that, I love that about you as a lawyer. I go, how do you do that for everybody? He goes, oh yeah, I try to do that forever. I go, do you get any work done? He goes, I don't get any work done all day. I do, I can't get anything done. I said, so there's gotta be a balance of how you set expectations, how you delegate your phone or your email so that you're not getting hijacked all day long. Right. You've gotta have a plan and be able to follow it. If your plan is, open your inbox and good luck, you know. Good luck.

Speaker C: Yeah. I run a, uh, women's mastermind for women attorneys. And one of the topics that we dealt with, uh, was, is workflow and interruptions. And we were talking about all the different ways that you can manage all of that. And some of it is some people do time blocking. You know, you figure out when on your calendar is it quiet time, you won't be interrupted. When is it open door policy and people can come in. When is it that you're taking and receiving and making phone calls and so allocating. And for some people this works really well. For some people, they, they can't work that way. So it's really, everything is about, you know, what works for you and what is it that's causing you to get backlogs. So, uh, that's part of the analysis, right. Where are you getting backlogs? So if it's interruptions, then you have to figure out how to minimize those and figure out what will help you not be interrupted. So interruptions do impact our ability to work effectively. And in fact, from a neuroscience perspective, every time you're interrupted, whether it's a ping on your phone or you get up and you make a phone call, the science says that when you come back to your work, it actually takes you, um, quite an amount of time. I don't remember the exact number, 15 to 30 minutes to get right back to that same mindset because you've broken the chain. And so you're thinking about that lawyer that you used to call and he wasn't getting any work done. So yeah, he had great relationships, but he wasn't delivering his work.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, problematic when it's, you know, it's Part and parcel with a number of things. I mean, there's perfectionism issues, there's delegation issues, there's time management issues. The, you know, I don't have time to delegate. I mean, think about that line. Uh, it's just easier to do it myself is maybe top five things lawyers say, right? It's just easier if I do it myself. Take us through that.

Speaker C: I hear that daily. Daily.

Speaker A: I didn't make it up. Right. I was not coming off the cuff

Speaker C: with that and everybody who's listening going, yeah, it is easy to do it myself. Uh, but there's a cost. Just like the guy who's picking up his own phone, there is a cost.

Speaker A: Yeah. Hey everybody. Your next big client might call at 8pm on a Saturday night. The question is, who's picking up? With Lex reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that Lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.LexReception.com partners BethatLawyer to claim your offer. That's www.LexReception.com Partners BET Lawyer. Hey everybody. Steve Fretson here and@lawyer.com they don't just market law firms, they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry leading events, they're building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That's lawyer.com check them out today with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm. Rankings IE prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings IO when they want rankings, traffic in cases other law firm marketing agencies can't deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free consultation at Rankings IO today. So what are the strategies that you talk your clients through? And I'm happy to share one or two of my own to be a more effective date delegator.

Speaker C: Well, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Speaker A: Uh uh, hey, that sounds like a lawyer answer right there a lawyer question in my question number one is identify you know what you're doing all day and what, what is at your pay grade. If you're 500 an hour, 750 an hour, thousand dollars an hour and you track your day and you identify things that are 0, 20, $50 an hour tasks, you're making your own copies. If you're an estate Planner, or you're doing first year, second year litigation associate work as a litigator. Right. You're doing, you know, there isn't a paralegal right now, so I'll just do the paralegal work. I'm filing things, I'm looking for things, I'm searching for stuff. These are all, you know, hours a day that lawyers are essentially flushing down the toilet. Either billable hours they're flushing away, or actual business development time that where they could be producing more. So that is one example. There's dozens.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, 100% I agree with that. And I love to run the metrics on that one, like a little roi. And it came to me once when I was, when somebody was telling me that they were commuting three hours a day. And I'm going, wow. Like, okay, so I lived in la, you know, they're commuting three hours a day. I'm like, are you crazy? And then I was like, well, three hours a day, that's 15 hours a week. That's 60 hours a month. That's times 12. Oh my God, you know, how much time are you spending in the car? So, so when I talk to my clients and I say, okay, you are not delegating or you are delegating, and then when it comes back to you, it's not good enough, so you redo it yourself, right? And then you give it back to them just to redline. But you're redoing all the work. Let's just say you are spending two hours a day doing work that doesn't belong your plate, that you should have delegated. You're redoing somebody else's work, you're doing whatever it is you're doing, work that shouldn't be on your plate or that you're redoing other people's work two hours a day, times that you times that out, that's, you know, 10 hours a week, 40 hours a month, you know, times 12, you know, whatever. You, you can run the numbers and

Speaker A: then it's an extra week a month that you are throwing away. You can have a five week month every month. If you. That's right, get rid of those two hours.

Speaker C: 12. 12. It's 12 weeks. And imagine if I said you have three months more time to do your work or three months to take off. Like people. Like, I'm, uh, blown away. And okay, let's just say it's one hour. You're wasting one hour, you know, and then you end up with six weeks. I'm Sorry, but who wouldn't want six weeks of time? And so that for them is really like the head explosion, you know, and that really gets them to think differently because there is truth around that. And you're talking about, uh, you know, billable hours, you know, what is the benefit financially for them, not just time wise. So think about it in a really practical, you know, financial or, you know, personal time way. It can really have a big impact. And so how are you going to find an hour in your day? Maybe five minutes at a clip, maybe it's 15 minutes at a clip. But how are you going to find that additional time so you can buy that additional free time or more money, you know, or be able to build, you know, build more hours, whatever.

Speaker A: And sometimes you have to invest in a system or people or tech or something to get your time back. So as an example, you know, people spend a significant amount of time with me and my classes I teach on Tuesday mornings in conjunction with one on ones, and they look at that time and they go, that's a lot of time, Steve. I'm busy. I'm a busy lawyer. Well, all right, so let's do the math on, you know, 200, 300 hours a year of business development that's, you know, ineffective or the opportunity lost because you're not doing it effectively. So there's the time and there's the opportunity cost and the loss. Or you put in your time with me for six months or whatever, learn these skills, and then you're doing everything as efficiently as you can. That's one example of, you know, training an associate. Right? Getting someone under you that might be a first or second year that has a lot to learn, but you invest some time with them, um, and then eventually you don't have to micromanage them anymore. They're just kind of running with your stuff. And now what? Now you get those two hours, three hours back a day that you know where you were doing that kind of level work. So it's. I'm not saying any of this is easy, but I'm suggesting that it's something that people need to really consider as important.

Speaker C: That's right. What is that book? I was just trying to look my. Look over here. 10x is easier than 2x. Yeah, I think it's something like, uh, Dan Harrison. I can't remember his last name. But 10x is easier than 2x is the simple proposition that to work twice as hard to make twice as much money is insanely difficult. But if you have to think expansively about like, how can I change my business so that I'm ten times more effective? You have to stop thinking about you can't work 10 times harder. So what would you do differently? You have to really start thinking fundamentally by going down to the brass tacks about, you know, what would I do differently, what do I outsource, what do I stop doing, who do I hire, where is the best use of my time, what is my expertise? And it's really a brilliant way of thinking about it. And that's exactly what you're talking about in your course. But yours is obviously focused for lawyers. And how do you 10x your time in a very methodical way?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's Dan Sullivan. He's done incredible work for as long as I can remember the thing too. Like just thinking about time management. And first of all, when I teach a class, just same thing with peer advisory, right? The groups that you run, I run rainmaker roundtables. And you know, the class I run, for example, if I had to take each of those individual attorneys and teach them, you know, six months, 90 minutes a week individually, right, to learn business development. I mean, there's my, there's all my time gone, essentially, right? Even working with about 20 lawyers a year plus, they're not getting the camaraderie, they're not getting the role play and the back and forth. Like, I had them practice their infomercials today as a group and get feedback, what they liked, what they didn't like, suggestions. And it's incredible, right? So I don't think, I don't think, you know, we need to look at everything we can do to, you know, to 10x instead of 2x. And there are ways to do it, to automate things into and to, you know, group people together. Um, I was in New York last week and look, I'm not trying to take away from any one on one time with my clients. They can meet with me one on one anytime they want. But I got them together for drinks so they get to meet each other. I got to meet all of them and it took an hour and a half. It was fantastic and it was so much fun. But if I had to meet with them six people individually, well, that's, you know, six hours, which is fine. That would have been okay too. I thought this would be more fun. But it just. We have to consider, how are we, how are we being effective with what we're doing in our time?

Speaker C: Yep, absolutely. Community is definitely important.

Speaker A: Kind of the last direction I want to go with you is around just any other practical system, self management habits that you found to be effective for your clients. You know, maybe when they're, you know, dealing with stress or turmoil, how do they overload? How do they get through that?

Speaker C: I don't want to answer, uh, a different question, but I want to throw out that one of the biggest issues that lawyers have, and we sort of touched on this, but I just really want to emphasize the issue about perfectionism and how perfectionism is really especially dangerous for lawyers and it can have such a huge impact on productivity and, and the fear of not being absolutely perfect is, you know, almost comes from self limiting beliefs, but it is such a drain on the system and creates so much stress. Rather than thinking about what just needs to be good enough. What I mean everything needs to be accurate. I mean there's no question accuracy is, you know, like, that is uh, that is like a barrier to entry. Right. But not everything needs to be a masterpiece. Some things they, you know, so what needs to be excellent rather than perfect. But I just want to talk about how that mindset, that drive is what happens and causes people to stress out and that causes people to overwork and that causes substance abuse, that causes all kinds of burnout. And so it's really important to be cautious about your mindset, about your work. And I have a continuing legal education course on the neuroscience of stress and how to get into a state of confidence, how to get into a state of relaxation, not relaxation, but wellbeing, competency and you know, the neuroscience of stress and how it impacts your ability to be productive. And when you're stressed out, when you're in fight or flight, when you're in your sympathetic nervous system, you actually cannot neurologically think clearly. And it elevates your risk of malpractice. Making mistakes, errors, reactivity, emotional responses that are not in line, whatever, you cannot work as efficiently. So that leads to your question. So it's really about, you know, one, you need to take breaks. That's essential. Taking lunch is not, you know, is not a leisure thing. It's actually to shut down your brain and allow it to have that moment to re, to relax and recom, you know, uh, be able to like sort of shut down all the windows. There's a whole science around that as well. But not even get into that, making sure that you're taking that time to take care of yourself. I mean these are really, you know, very anecdotal and you know, everybody's talking about self care, but I can't stress it Enough.

Speaker A: We talk about it. But are we doing it right? How are we doing it? My wife said to me she's off for the summer as a teacher. And she's like, uh, do you want to go to the gym this afternoon? I'm like, yes, thank you for asking. Right. So I'm going to get up from my desk, I'm going to go and I'm going to do some rehab on my shoulder and I'm going to do some exercise and I'm going to get, you know, the stress out and move around and do, you know, do my thing so important. And so I think, you know, eating, sleeping, exercise, taking breaks. Um, I have breaks put into my schedule so that I don't run through because I'll have seven to ten meetings a day and if I didn't have breaks put in there, you know. Ay, ay. No. Good. So any other specific examples of how people can unwind or unstress when they're in that moment of fight or flight?

Speaker C: Yeah, in fact, I always think I have a back here. One of my, you know, one of my books is, um, uh, Brendan Burchard, who talks about, you know, high performance habits. He's a really high powered, very, very influential, uh, executive coach. And he's. One of the things that he always talks about is no matter what, at five minutes to the hour, he gets up and walks around. It is like a non negotiable for him. And so just taking that moment to get up and walk around. I talked about lunch breaks, uh, doing something that brings you joy and passion, something that makes you happy, something that makes you smile. And scrolling on your phone is probably not the answer because some people are like, oh, that's my reward. But it can be very distracting, particularly if you're doing it, uh, in the middle of the day, in the middle of your work, but trying to find things that bring you joy and happiness. Some people like meditation, some people like to journal. Some people just like to walk around and socialize. We talked about, you talked about the importance of socializing. So walking around and connecting with people in your. In it at work or if you have a dog. I know my dog and I walk around the neighborhood and I've met my entire neighborhood through my dog, you know, and it's that moment of smiling and being happy for just, you know, 10 minutes.

Speaker A: Yeah. Really great. I love it. So let me ask you one last question. That is, what's Ellen's big mistake?

Speaker C: Oh, gosh, I think one of my biggest mistakes was so when I was negotiating a deal for my next, uh, role. When I was at one of the companies that I was at, my ego got in the way, and I was very, very, very, very stressed, and my ego got in the way, and I was highly reactive, highly emotional, and I did not, uh, I did not farm it out. I did not hire a lawyer who I should have hired to help to negotiate deal for me for my own, you know, next thing. And I got too emotionally wrapped up in it, and I ended up quitting in a fit of ego. And after I did it, the next, like, three hours later, I was like, oh, I made a mistake. Oh, my gosh. I quit. And I called back, and the presidents had already offered it to somebody else.

Speaker A: Wow. Wow.

Speaker C: They'd already called in a consultant, and they're like, it's too late.

Speaker A: Do you know the story about Larry David at, uh, Saturday Night Live?

Speaker C: No.

Speaker A: You know, Larry David, Seinfeld, corgi, enthusiasm. Okay, so he quit Saturday Night Live, like, in a huff. He got mad because they weren't choosing his sketches. He quit in, like, in a big scene. And then he was talking to his friend, and he was like, well, just go back and pretend like it never happened or that you were joking or whatever. And he did. I don't. And I think it worked. I think he got back. I don't know. But, uh. And then, of course, that was a Seinfeld episode with George where he did that.

Speaker C: Oh, I shouldn't have done that.

Speaker A: Oh, they worked because. Right. Cause they hired somebody.

Speaker C: But you know what? It was the best thing that ever happened to me because. Because of that. It was 2008. 2000. And it was the worst time to get a new job. And while I was looking for a job, I got certified as a coach.

Speaker A: Okay, well, there you go. Yeah. So. And, uh, the other thing is maybe the realization of the ego and all of that and recognizing, you know, when you get into that situation again, maybe you need to hire somebody, help you then. I try to be that perfectionist lawyer.

Speaker C: Exactly. Take the emotion out of it. When you get too emotional, you're going to. Like I said before, when you're emotional, when you're reactive, when you're in your nervous system, you make mistakes. You cannot live experience.

Speaker A: Well, listen, let's thank our wonderful sponsors, of course, pimcon, the greatest personal, uh, Injury Mastermind conference coming up in October. Check that out, everybody. If you're a personal injury attorney or work with them. Um, also our friends at Rankings IO, Terrific Digital, uh, Agency, Lex Reception, as I said earlier, let's not pick up our calls. Let's have someone professional do it. Make sure that they're vetted for us. And lawyer.com, great directory, great people over there.

Speaker B: Hi.

Speaker A: Ah, to Colleen. If people want to get in touch with you, Ellen, uh, they want to check out what you've written and what you've put out there. What are the best ways for them to, uh, get in touch?

Speaker C: Well, there's my website, but usually the thing that I keep the most up to date is my LinkedIn and, and it's obviously LinkedIn.com forward slash, in forward slash, uh, EBC coaching. And you can find me there. I write a lot of articles and I'm up to date. You know, ping me, uh, connect. And I also offer, um, complimentary consultations. So if you want to talk about anything we've talked about here or getting promoted, influence, impact, getting a seat at the table, confidence, that stuff, I'm here.

Speaker A: All right, you're here. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom and I know that there are lawyers listening that are feeling much of what we talked about today. And the goal and the hope is that they took a note or that they took some things to heart that they're going to change and at least, you know, make some actions, take some actions to resolve. That's really what this, what this show's all about. So thank you so much. Appreciate you.

Speaker C: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Yeah, and thank you everybody for hanging out with Ellen and I for the last 30, uh, minutes, uh, helping you to be that lawyer. Confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. I'm Steve Fretson and, uh, take care, be safe, and be well. And we will talk again so very soon.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening. To Be that Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve's website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.