Sports Sponsorship in B2B | B2B Marketing Shepherd Rajesh Kumar | EP 08

Decoding B2B marketing with Rajesh Kumar. Hey there. Welcome to the Decoding B2B Marketing show on B2B Marketing. Shepherd. I am Rajesh Kumar, Marketer, Fractional CMO Board Advisor and soon to be author of Decoding B2B Marketing. Coming on Amazon after 30 years in the trenches at companies like Microsoft, SAP, UiPath, Profetti and Perno, I know B2B marketing isn't easy. It's not for the faint of the heart. It can be complex, specialized, and often missing clear, usable advice. And that is why we brought this show together. To strip away the noise, deliver real insights and help you build brands and marketing that truly work. Today, I'm thrilled to kick off a special conversation with Sujatha V. Kumar. Until recently, CMO at Visa India and South Asia, Sujatha and I go way back and her experience is nothing short of legendary. She's led some of the biggest sponsorships, you know, of FIFA, Olympic Formula one, and worked closely with stars like PV Sindhu, Neeraj Chopra and Sachin Tendulkar. She's brought world class branding to both consumer and B2B giants. And oh my man, she's talented musician too, leading her own band. So get ready. This episode is packed with wisdom stories and many, many actionable insights. Let's dive in and decode B2B marketing like never before. Ready? Let's get started. Welcome to the show. Sujata. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much. It's so wonderful to be here. Rajesh. Yeah. So long to meet you after such a long time, especially for a prolonged conversation today. I'm so glad we have you with us today. So to begin with, I'm curious to know your journey. What got you from B2C to B2B? How it has been? You have many, many interesting brands that you worked for. Journey so far, highs, lows. What has kept you going, kept you here, and would you do it all over again if you had an opportunity? Oh, wow. Firstly, yes, in a heartbeat. But let me take a step back and talk about my journey. I actually wanted to do psychology when I was in college and I did psychology honors. But the thing is, you remember those days, there wasn't too much future to take up clinical psychology as a profession. Although today things have changed so much. So therefore, being a person who liked to work with people, I thought and I was also advised that marketing would be a great option. And I did that. And I had the really good fortune to work with two huge consumer brands in marketing. My first job was with Procter and Gamble and later I worked with Coca Cola. So two of the best consumer brands possible. There I learned my love for marketing. I really realized what I love is working with consumers, trying to understand what are their need gaps, how can you fit your brand or your product into that? How can you communicate to them effectively in a very wide and scattered and disruptive marketplace? I also then had a chance to work with a bank. So I headed marketing for the Royal bank of Scotland, where I got to actually do a bit of working with customers and not consumers. And it was really interesting because from a wide whole country you actually got to work with actual customers, people who were receiving your products. And I thought that was just so interesting. And then I had the good fortune. About six years ago, I joined Visa as the head of marketing for India and South Asia. And because Visa combined both of that, it's both a B2B and a B2C company. And with that, let me explain to you. So, Rajesh, if I asked you today what credit card you have, what would you say? Visa. No, I mean like you would ordinarily say which bank you had, right? So yeah, you would say I have a Standard Chartered card or I have a HDFC card, any of the bank cards. And that's because the banks issue the cards. So therefore the way we had to do it, we had to structure marketing into a B2C as well as a B2B funnel. And. And that's when I discovered the huge interest, potential scope for B2B marketing. Because honestly, before that I'd always thought B2C is the rosy fun where you create these lovely advertisements, campaigns, DO promotions, and B2B is more serious. Yes, B2B does have a level of seriousness because you are working directly with your client. But there is no dearth of things you can do. Making it interesting, making it fun here. What we had to do was that we had to work with all our issuing banks to plan how to deliver content that works together. So I think in a nutshell, I can say having done both B2C, B2B and B2B2C, I think they're all interesting. And in fact, I'm seeing a lot more focus today moving towards B2B advertising. And I think the line has really blurred because many things that held B2B back were the focus audience. Therefore, spillage of mass media and digital changed that. I mean, I myself, we worked together in consumer days. Then I went to a startup and then the first job was a tech company because startup was shutting down and that was an experiment. They said, we are starting small and medium business. Let's get somebody from consumer service experiment. And I realized when I did this big fancy sweepstakes campaign, end of it, they said, okay, now show us the ROI in B2C. Nobody had asked me ever such, right. So that changed quite a bit for me. The measurability and actually the business relevance in B2B is much higher. Before we go deeper into the topic of today, which is sponsorships and celebrity endorsements in B2B, Sujata, when she's not marketing, you have so many different aspects to you. I know a lot about your music, so tell me about it. I'll do that. But before that, I just. I wanted to totally add to what you were saying, which is that in our time, Rajesh, when we started, there was a lot of what we call spray and pray marketing, right. We would create these big campaigns, we would throw it out and we would just hope it reached and there was no way to get feedback. So finally it was what was the sales at the end of the month. But that's completely changed. And as a marketer, if we have not learned that and changed accordingly, we have also become sort of irrelevant. And that's why the importance of doing more strategic, more focus, especially with the advent of the whole social and digital world where everybody now is just a click away to connecting with you. So I think that's really good and I'd love to take that up more later. But yes, coming to me on a personal level. So one of my biggest passions and as you know, has always been music. I've been singing ever since I was 6 and I'm very fortunate to have continued that while I've been working. So for about 12 years, we had a band called Midlife Crisis. All of us were professionals in the corporate world who had done a lot of music in their free time. We came together, we used to practice every Sunday at my place and we did a lot of shows, Hard Rock Cafes across social, different places, one show a month. We used to do pure rock from the 70s and the 80s and it was great fun. And the other thing I love doing is just singing musicals. So I was very lucky. Also, there was a group called Theatre for a Cause that put up shows of Mamma Mia, Both Mamma Mia 1 and Mamma Mia 2 in Delhi and Gurgaon, and I was part of that. I was singing all of the choir as long as. As well as I was the voice of Donna for some of the shows. So, you know, it was so much fun. So I think I've been very fortunate. I always had two bucket lists in my passion. One was to sing with a band and one was to sing with a musical. And I was very fortunate to have done both. So love that. And that really, I think having that passion sort of balances in you and keeps you sane in the crazy world of the corporate world. And I think for our viewers also you would have seen we've got some, all the people we have got on our show have such a really interesting non work side to them. So this is also the place where very interesting people remain. But another topic I want to ask you. You are a champion for women in leadership, right? Tell us more about your journey and how you are encouraging, you know, young girls to rise. It's such an important topic and so close to my heart because our time, Rajesh, there were hardly any women in the workplace and very few reached leadership positions. I know in two of my companies I was the only woman in a leadership team of, you know, more than 14 men. And I know how difficult it has been. And I'm, you know, you know, I'm very thankful I was able to, you know, lasted out do well thanks to some great companies, some great bosses, some great mentors. But what I've realized is I can use that and what I've gone through to help, you know, get more women in the workplace. And that's a passion of mine. I think that the workplace today is much more amenable, you know, to help women stay in the workplace. We know that there are, it's called the three M's that make women leave the workplace, which is marriage, so matrimony, maternity and mobility, which is mobility is if your spouse moves, then you end up leaving as well. So one of the things I have done very strongly is I have been a mentor to many, many, many women in junior and middle management to sort of tell them the benefits of staying in the workplace throughout. Because I've had a lot of women who leave and then after about 10 years call me and say we want to come back. And it's very tough to come back, although now it's getting, you know, even, even more possible. But so that is the thing. So a lot of coaching, counseling women how to stay on during the tough times, how to stay on during the challenging times and just seeing it through because I myself have gone through that and I know the challenges and I know the, the benefits today when I sit and look back of staying through. I don't know, I Hear you. I hear you. When I'm married to a working finance professional and my daughter is now working professional, I completely hear and I understand what you're saying. Now coming back to marketing, you worked with some of the most loved brands and, and you mentioned to it. But how has the transition from B2C to B2B been? It's been really interesting. You know, as marketers you somehow are automatically join and become part of the B2C world. And like I said, I was very fortunate with fantastic brands like Coca Cola and Procter and Gamble. But getting into B2B shows you a completely different side of marketing. And for me that's been fascinating. But like I said, it takes time to figure that out. In fact, when I joined Visa, which is a B2B2C brand, the first six months I just did what came naturally to me, which is B2C marketing. And I was creating campaigns on how to get people to move to digital payments, the whole security aspect cashless. And then I realized that I'm actually ignoring a huge part of the remit, which is the whole B2B part, which is to work with the clients who actually issue your product. And that was a huge learning. It took a lot of, like I said, unlearning of the standard way of B2C marketing and learning of B2B because you're focusing not on an end consumer, but you're focusing with your, with your client, your partner to deliver an end product. And what comes into here is then it's not just consumer marketing. There's a lot of product marketing that comes in because you're many times working with your client on a product and how to communicate the same. How do you combine goals to give the results? Many a times these are not mass consumer marketing campaigns, but they are focused on whether it's social, digital, whether, like I said, it's product marketing. So there's a whole combination and it opened for me a whole new universe which I found fascinating. Yeah, it's so good. I mean I, like I mentioned, I also came with little bit of a serendipity then I've enjoyed it and you know, greatly benefited from this career. But I've realized that even after two or three decades, there is not enough discourse or content. They are not enough B2B marketing courses still in B schools there are not enough content material. So that's one reason we put this show together and I'm doing the book on B2B marketing as well so that there is a reference material now. So what your Point is so valid because like I said, when you go to B school, when you come in your first job, you always think B2C. But I think there's a need to think B2B right from when you're getting into your studies. Because primarily it is the growth of B2B we're seeing with media scattering from one source to everyone is actually a media agency. Consumers, customers can engage with you on a one on one on real time basis. This is where B2B is more important because you have to be able to have that connect with the product, with your client and then with the end customer. So I think it's more most timely and wish you all the best for your book. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm going to be the first person to buy one. Thank you so much. So now jumping into the topic of the day. So sponsorship is such an interesting topic. Very high visibility, of course, very expensive, There is fear of spillage. But earlier we saw only global brands. Now we are seeing increasingly even local Indian brands leveraging that as a clutter breaker, as a way to make inroads into their desired territory of prospects and customers. Tell us, and that's why we want to unpack this, tell us, how do you see role of sponsorship for B2B brands? So I think you touched on a great point. Sponsorship is huge because it actually taps onto live passion points of people. And one of the biggest areas for sponsorship is sports. I've been very fortunate actually work with three brands that sponsored one of the biggest sporting events in the world, which is the FIFA World Cup. So when I was at png, Gillette sponsored the World Cup, Coca Cola did and so did Visa. So what you get to see is people have largely three passion points. And that's very true for Indians which is sport, movies and music. And that's why you see sponsorships are are largely around these three events or these three pillar points. Sport is good because sport is one thing that unites everyone. Whether it's cricket in India, whether it's now football and other things you're seeing coming up in India, it brings people together globally. Also you have events like the Olympics which two of the brands that I worked with, Coca Cola and Visa also are the global sponsors. What we've seen happening, and this I saw a lot in my last assignment, which is that how do you get something mass and large to not just be a B2C phenomenon but bring it down to a B2B. So one of the things that we did do at Visa is Every time we worked with our sponsorship properties, it always had a statement that it has passed through rights for the customers because. And the clients because otherwise there's no point. In India, for example, the things we did, we signed up PV Sindhu as the brand ambassador, the first ever brand ambassador, and then following that, Neeraj Chopra. These were actually done in consultation with our client partners, with our B2B partners to say we're planning to do this. Do you think it's good? Do you think it's something your customers would enjoy, would leverage? So that's one of the things. And then you talked about the very relevant point of costs. So you're right. And the way to do is to make this affordable or workable in the end, P and L is to use that property and leverage it across the life cycle. So yes, you would use it to create a big campaign. And I'll take an example. For example, in the last Olympics, we created something called the Ultimate Fan Challenge, which is basically to get people who are fans of the two biggest brand ambassadors the brand had, which was Neeraj Chopra and Bibi Sindhu, possibly the biggest and best athletes the country has. How do you get them accessible? So we did obviously a big campaign that went on air that just talked about the Olympics in India and it was this really heart racing, pride building campaign. So that was mass. Then when we brought it down, we did something called, like I said on social digital, called the Ultimate Fancy Challenge, where there were contests and where people, the different customers of our partners could try and win. And the final thing was actually on ground events, which I think is a huge part that would work in the B2B sector, which is where we had on ground events for each of the B2B partners. They called in their customers, their clients. There was interactions and we saw some very, very happy customers going back home. So I think what makes it work, if you don't just think it as one thing, which is one tvc, but you leverage across different points and you know, I'll give you a small example. Obviously none of us expected the pandemic to happen and we had just signed on PV Sindhu at that time. So how do you make sure you leverage? So we did simple campaigns like everybody was talking about hand washing. So we did a whole clip of her washing hands and saying, she said wash like an Olympian training at home because none of us could go out, train like an Olympian. So just actually look at the situation of your business, the situation of the world, your partners, and see how it is. So that's one of the ways to make the cost, I think efficient. I can share some of the examples as well. I've seen some of the brands I worked for use it really well like SAP and Microsoft and even UiPath. So SAP used to sponsor the Formula One. So typically there is an association of performance and we would host our key clients which probably you won't get access to otherwise from a premium viewing experience. And in that showcase right in the Formula one pit, the three way dialogue between the driver, the analytics team and the back end team operations team. And this is aided by the 300 sensors on each car. And the analogy was how would you like that kind of split second intelligence for your own business? And if the CEO of the company says that, sees that they kind of get it. And the morning briefing will start with actually the driver coming in with the, you know, the staring wheel off the car to brief them. They really feel involved in that experience. And the premiumness of that hospitality also brings people who you won't be able to draw out otherwise. Exactly. And that was just going to come. So the other thing is post the event, we've done this a lot of time which is call in some of the global people, athletes to come in and address your customers and say this is what we have to do to make an excellent team, to win every time, to deliver. These are the points. How can you use it in your business? So exactly. Very, very. You can make very different points. You just have to change the lens. I remember we did some sessions, you're talking also about celebrity already as a part of this topic. We had Shankar Mahadevan come in and talk about what does it take for a partnership to work for so long in an industry that is fragile and said how does in software industry partnership has learnings or we had somebody like Asha Bhusle come in and talk about the value of agility, of adaptation because we were talking about digital transformation. We said how do humans adapt and how she has kept herself relevant over such a long span of decades and why can't you do in your business? So I think sometimes the human stories stick. They stick. And because yeah, and when you do is you get a small audience for an interaction. So then the connect is even more strong and more special. I mean we are actually not getting them to perform for entertainment but we are drawing on the values that they represent. Exactly. That's what sport is. Right? Sport is every day pushing a new boundary, every day doing more. The power of teamwork. That's one of the themes I'VE seen that echoes so well when you have a sponsor and then you have them come and meet your B2B partner, they talk about how when you come onto the field or onto the court, onto the arena, your person goes away, personal egos go away. It's all about teamwork. How do you bring that idea of teamwork into the workplace? And that's one of the themes that I've seen really resonate with people. Also I think there's value in because, you know, building a brand is expensive work. It is. Right. And B2B for some reason has underwalled it for a long time now. These are some of the ways where you do one big thing and you can cut through the clutter. Yes. You see example of HCL sponsoring Ferrari, you know, and the TCs doing marathons. So people get that when you are very focused, you know, sharp use of your resources, they cut through the clutter. No, absolutely. Especially when you see a lot of now Indian brands like you. The names you talk were Indian brands. Infosys does a lot with Wimbledon, you know. So I'm just saying that if you see Indian names with international and local sponsorship properties, you see that that's happening. The other thing, if you see that's happening big is music is also growing. Rajesh. You'd have seen in the last, I think 15 months more people have come, international brands have come to India to perform. And almost all of them, if you see they are sponsored by, you know, big brands who use it for one on one customer engagement. So that's the other thing. You know, you give an experience where they won't otherwise get it, but always link it to something that like you said, whether it's teamwork, whether it's excelling, how do you bring that? So there's always well thought out. It's not, let me just get the biggest name, let them come and you know, people go, wow. It's a link. In the past it was seen as just hospitality free tickets. But it's no longer the brand's deeply integrated great to showcase like you know the, the basketball sponsorship at or even the cricket association. You know, tech companies is about providing that analytics to players. Yes. And showing how you can analyze and be smarter and you know, wiser and faster. Even from a celebrity standpoint. We're seeing Rahul Dravid coming for in one of the Indian software companies. So clearly they are clutter breakers. They rub off onto the brand. I mean in B2B as well, the same brand flow of things, you know, do you know me, do you trust me as an expert? Then only you do business because it's a longer term and higher value engagement. It's not an impulse engagement. So the investment in brand and using this route can be very interesting and efficient way. Absolutely. Like you touched a very point. You can't just do the mass advertising in B2B. It won't work. There is the need for niche, there is a need for product and there is a need to bring that all together. And like I said, sponsorship celebrities answer that in a big way. So you've seen it all. You've seen FIFA, you've seen Olympics, you've seen Formula One. So did you see some skepticism initially from a B2B standpoint or, you know, and then how did you address it and what was the reaction afterwards in terms of like, you know, B2B is always about measuring how did I benefit? So very much as to how will we clients asking, these are great properties, it's wonderful. Yes, we'd love a chance to watch it, but what will we get from it? How will it benefit our customers? I think that's something that we learned with each year of doing it and how to integrate more and more, like I said, with our partners. What are the needs that they have, what are their end goals? Who are their key customers? How do you bring together things like that? And apart from just going and viewing, I think one of the big things that's happening today in India is also experience. And what we find is these very small niche customers are looking for experiences that they couldn't have otherwise. So one of the things, I always find it very interesting, but I don't know if you know that in MasterChef. Australia is a huge program. So India is the highest view of this program. And I was quite surprised to find that Indians actually, and you're right, all men, women, all ages, love to cook, love to watch, and they actually go and try it out. So what we did is we got one of the master chefs, top chefs down and did a private event for the B2B's top clients, customers, where they came in and they engaged and it was together cooking a full seven course meal, getting the chance to interact. And that was literally seen as a money can't buy experience. So I think the other thing we're getting into is experiences and even if they're product based, software based companies, they all benefit from these type of interactions. So I think it's cutting through to not saying what's just the biggest event, who's the biggest name, how is it relevant? And maybe we take small things. So for example, that's what I'm going to cut to. Another thing that's coming is while you have big celebrities, many brands and small companies don't want to spend on that. But what is really finding its way today is influencer marketing. Because what you see in influencer marketing is these are people who are micro but they are seen as true experts in their area and have very strong followership followers. So that therefore brands, especially B2B brands and you know, when we work with our B2B partners, we see that it makes a lot more cost sense to. If you say your, you know, your brand, your partner is looking at travel, to look at travel influencers speak to them how to bring in the product of, you know, the partner. So whether it's, you know, when you're traveling abroad, how do you use, you know, how do you get the best results rates, which card is the best card to you, which gives you the best rate that a traveler influencer can do? They have tech, you know, on technology there are technique technology experts, there is food experts. So that's the other area where I'm seeing a huge growth. And because everyone has a, has a smartphone today, it's really in very sweet. But almost everybody's now beginning to feel that they can become an influencer because they see the huge growth in that. But that's one thing I think there is going to be a lot of Future especially in B2B marketing because it's focused, direct, low cost, but has an impact and reach. No, no, Excellent. I think it's a big, big topic and there is so much under it. Which brands in B2B are just beginning to take on. Clearly people buy from people and a familiar face, soft endorsing and to your point of influencer, who has credibility in that space. So the relevance is seen and simplifying your message is of huge value and it does stand out. Yes. You know, people remember. Yes, absolutely. And you know, complex messages are hard to remember. They are probably more relevant when you're much lower down the funnel. Yeah. And that's the reason why, you know, I always feel that you have to use a celebrity and choose a celebrity for reason, not because he or she is the most expand on that. I want to know how do you align to your needs, brand attributes, feel that, you know, and having obviously worked with some of the biggest brands which have had some of the largest celebs on board, what I've always looked as the brand, the celebrity it's not just someone who's most known. They have to have the right ethos, the right values for your brand. Otherwise it's just here today and gone tomorrow. And that's what. So if you look whoever you know, the brands that I've worked with and we take about what we did in Visa in the past, both on sports as well as, you know, the brand ambassador, they are people who identify, you know, 1.4 billion people identify with them, they love them. So when they talk to them, they feel, yes, this is my person talking to me. So I think that's very important that you choose whether it's a global celeb, national celeb or an influencer, someone who speaks to your consumer, embodies your brand. Whether it's Coca Cola, whether it's a bees, it's a brand that is for everybody. Especially when you talk about financial stability, security, that's the need for everybody. So how do you start or choose somebody who stands for that, who is not, you know, oh, I'm here today on this brand, I'm there tomorrow on that brand, but will actually stand with you and your brand. And that's how we've chosen. So given that these are usually expensive decisions and many times multi year, how do you build a business case for investment and justify the cost? So business cases are always tricky obviously because, and like you said, everyone wants to see the result on the P and L. I think one of the things you have to do is if you take a celebrity, you have to commit within the organization that it's going to be multi year because it will never pay out in year one. Okay. It builds so one, it has to be multi year. Second I would say it has to be like I said, not one big bang campaign. You have to use it across touch points, this person. So a big media campaign which goes on tv, small social and digital on ground events, things that your customers or partners are doing, have them interact. So I think build, like I said, never look at it one year, build over many events, many focuses and then it obviously is not a one to one. You can't say I spend this much, business must grow this much. There has to be a model that is looked into over three to five years and therefore you have to stay committed to that person, that property, even if the property stays the same and the person changes but for a longer term period. True, true. I think, and I'm reminded one of the earliest Indian software companies to use was Viswanath and Anand. Yes. And I think that changed how they were perceived as a. Probably the more intelligent of the smartest software provider in the world was niit. Right. So now you've interacted with so many properties and so many celebrities. On a lighter note, tell us about an interesting personal experience while managing, you know, all of these. No, it's. It's been really, really fascinating because you interact with them, but you don't want to intrude into their space. And, you know, many times they have. They come with their own thing. But I'll give you a very small event. One is, the thing is, so I was one of the. Me and my boss, we went and met PV Sindhu when we first signed her up. This was back in 2019, and she's still continuing with the brand even today after I've left as well in 2025. It's been an interaction that's grown over time. And because you would meet often, eventually I was invited to come and be with during shoots. And she was always accompanied by her father. Father's an amazingly wonderful person, PV Ramanan Sir. And, you know, I would sit with them and have a meal with them. So I remember one of the shoots, this was in Hyderabad, and I went in and we were all having homemade Hyderabad biryani that her mother had sent. And when we were talking, I just looked at the bond of the father and daughter and said, oh, my God, this is amazing. You know, you know, you hear about it, but this is really a true bond. And we shot this in May and I came out of it and suddenly I remember that Father's Day is in June. So I was like, you know, how can I take this magic and this beauty to be something that the brand talks about on Father's Day? And we actually did. So then I spoke to her and said, would you be open to talking about your father on Father's Day for the brand? And she said, yes. And she talked about. It was a really heartfelt post where she talked about the role of her father, what all he's done, and it actually culminated in the most beautiful Father's Day post message. And I think that was something that stayed close to my hand because, number one, they opened their arms to let me into their world. I got to see a very touching, very beautiful interaction and was able to use that in a communication that they were very happy about as well and as well as the brand. You know, otherwise people just say, happy Father's Day without anything, but actually make a relevant one. So that really, you know, touches. And this is where I say, when you take somebody who genuine has a connect across the country, truly appreciates the brand that they are endorsing. You see beauty like this coming out? No, it's very moving and gives me goosebumps. And I think to your point, as you break through and see the person behind the big celebrity brand, everybody is human. And I think that connect does the magic. And if they see similar recognition on the other side, they also respond with equal warmth. Absolutely. And you know, in a country like India, you have such amazing down to earth celebrities. So I mean, Neeraj Chopra is probably the biggest athlete the country has an. I remember when we were shooting with him, we were shooting, you know, where he, there was a sports field where he was throwing the javelin. So obviously he didn't throw it with his full might, but there were a lot of youngsters who were also throwing because the whole point was to show how he inspires. And I've seen a lot of celebrities who, they finish their shot and they run to their vanity van and you can't enter. He sat there and, you know, people were, kids were coming to him and our sort of security was going up and he was like, no. And he answered everybody's question of how should I throw? This is the angle. And you just saw awestruck children who with their love of sport and their interaction with him could become the future of that sport tomorrow. And he really believes that. He says that I want to give back, I want to help youth, I want to grow. And if you remember, recently, he actually did the first ever javelin tournament in India. It was called the Neera Chopra Classic, which was held in Bangalore recently. So you actually see the, much beyond what the veneer, what the facade is. And I think for me that's the most touching when you get to see the human side and you see how much they are willing to give and then also how much you become a part of the thing. I mean, thanks to the early chess grades, they kind of of, you know, phenomenal success we are seeing of Indian chess youngsters. It's so, you know, gratifying, so inspiring, so moving. You know, I'm, I hope we have the same thing in javelin throw and you know, so many other areas. I hope so. We've seen badminton grow like anything in this country. And I think it's thanks to the legends of, you know, Sindhu and a lot before her and many after her. So I think that is the thing. So when a celebrity becomes, has a human side, links with the brand side, you know, and, and can do all that I think then you know, you look beyond just that one time cost. Absolutely, absolutely. So now tell me what will be your advice in all of this area of celebrity endorsement sponsorship for B2B marketers or B2B brands to consider. And I'm seeing a big opportunity of for Indian B2B brands. Most of them are in software and tech for the world because you know, building a brand is very expensive and prolonged effort. How can they use sponsorship and celebrity to their advantage to break through the clutter? Okay, no, great. I have a couple of points. So the first, first thing I would say is no matter who you sign up, make sure that person has a right fit with the brand. It cannot be who's the top flavor of the country or who people love if they don't have a connect with the brand. People will remember the celebrity but not the brand. And we've seen that in our cases, number two being B2B because there is always the end of the P and L that has to match. Make sure you look at, like I said, lifecycle investments. So big campaigns, if there are social, digital on ground events tie ups with the brand, it has to go across. Third, I would say don't only look at the top big names, look at people who stand out in the category. And that's where I come into influencers because influencers I'm finding, I've worked with them now for about seven to eight years in very close quarter in my, in my thing. And I see that sometimes they actually even deliver better value for a brand than a big name because the costs are less. They have, you know, people believe them, they come with this. My, I am the subject knowledge expert in that field. They have their own followers and if there is a link, so for example if you, since you talked about software, software companies look at technology influencers or someone going into food looking at food influencers, that's the other thing. So I would say number one, it has to match the ethos. The person has to match the ethos of your brand. Think life cycle. Don't always look at the biggest. Sometimes look at small, you know, smaller scale micro influencers who can deliver stronger value. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. It's lovely to have you on the show and you unpacked so much, you know, this is so good. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you Rajesh. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to seeing your entire series and like I said, first copy of your book. Absolutely, absolutely signed copy. Thank you so much. Thank you. Wow. What a fantastic conversation. Thank you Sujata for sharing your learnings in insights and experiences with us. I learned a lot. I hope you learned as much as I did. If this episode gave you what you needed, hit a follow button, leave a quick review and share it with someone you think will benefit. Got a burning question or a topic that you want us to unpack? Next? Reach out. Drop me a line here or find me on LinkedIn. I want to hear from you. Remember, don't follow the herd, lead it. You are the shepherd of your own marketing story. Thank you for listening and see you next time.